2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup

Time to pick your favorite.

This year's event is being held at Alamitos Bay Yacht Club in Long Beach, California on AHPC F16 Vipers. Many thanks to Greg Goodall and Jill Nickerson for supplying boats for the 4th year in a row. Youth event starts today with a clinic and practice. racing Saturday and Sunday. Adult racing starts Wednesday.

I was told by an Anonymous Weenie that it would be Struble followed by Casey in a very close one. I wouldn't be surprised to find Taylor Reiss, Pease Glaser, or the team of Dennis Key and John Williams in the medals either.
US Sailing's website will have daily press releases here: http://media.ussailing.org/Latest_News/2011/2011_Multihull_Preview.htm

1. John Casey, Dalton Tebo
2. Gary Chu, Norman Chu
3. Daniel DeLave, Eileen Haubl
4. John Giuliano, Peter Giuliano
5. Pease Glaser, Jay Glaser
6. Michael Hill, Daniel Hearn
7. John Hoag, Todd Christensen
8. Dennis Key, John Williams
9. Ken Marshack, Fabrice Trarieux
10. Scott Miller, Hailey Miller
11. Mark Modderman, Eric Raybon
12. Jason Moore, Jacob Sailer
13. Stephen Nelson, Geoffrey Nelson
14. Sarah Newberry, Taylor Palmer
15. Jeffrey Newsome, Jeffrey Fortuna
16. Nigel Pitt, Tammy Pitt
17. Taylor Reiss, Matthew Whitehead
18. Matt Struble, Damon Lacasella
19. Sandra Tartaglino, Glenn Holmes
20. Craig Yandow, Bill Westland

Looks to be a great week of sailing. I'll try to get some things up during the day as competition goes on.

JC has this one wrapped up.

who's the bookie for this event?

Taylor and Matthew.

Here's the list for the Youth event:

1. Abbott (Tucker) Atterbury, Jack Jorgensen
2. Reed Baldridge, Carson Crain
3. Ben Brown, Luc Lisi
4. Zack Downing, Andrew Cates
5. Jack Famiglietti, Brian Firth
6. Jeremy Herrin, Jason D'Agostino
7. Korbin Kirk, Trevor Hecht
8. Stephen Nelson, Geoffrey Nelson
9. Taylor Palmer, Raul Lopez
10. Ravi Parent, Sam Armington
11. Taylor Reiss, Matthew Whitehead
12. Maria Sinagra, Elizabeth Newberry
13. Scott Sinks, Chuck Eaton
14. Nevin Snow, Patrick Snow

Good luck to all,

I don't see a lot of mixed teams in those lists, should we expect to see more of them next year?

I'll take some of that action. As much as I'd like to see our local boys take the gold Struble is taking this one.

2012 is likely to be F18 so no I would not expect to see more mixed teams.

I would expect to see mixed teams only in the new Olympic class following a major recruitment effort by the MNA's for a specific Olympic Class multihull. Once that gets rolling you might see some of these teams in domestic events... Probably a couple of years away.

1. Struble
2. Casey
3. Pitt or Reiss depending on wind

1 - Matt Struble, Damon Lacasella
2 - Pease Glaser, Jay Glaser
3 - Gary Chu, Norman Chu
4 - John Casey, Dalton Tebo
5 - Dennis Key, John Williams
6 - Taylor Reiss, Matthew Whitehead
7 - Nigel Pitt, Tammy Pitt

Casey, Williams, or Pitt stand a real chance to be a spoiler in my prediction if they get their game full-on or the typical LB conditions get a shake up with a weather system. I don't know much about Chu at the helm...so making a wild guess there. Glasers are great sailors with local knowledge (for what that's worth off the beach at Long Beach where the saying is "even if it's wrong, go right"). I haven't seen anyone make Struble sweat in the US in a while.

I agree with Ding, it mostly depends on the boat being used (think of years when the H16 is provided).

I partially agree with Mark. I do think that the mixed-Olympic-thing will lead to a few additional mixed teams potentially submitting petitions (if they haven't already won a qualifier), as they will need these types of events for training and to put on the resume for the Big O. But, I don't think the boat would matter at all at that point (they will need the event regardless of the platform).

Mike

EDIT: Back on topic for this year... If it blows like stink, I'd expect to see Mark Modderman do well.

Struble
Glaser,
JC

Mudderman
Reiss
Newsome

Yandow
Pitt

What do I win?...
hope they have breeze!
Good luck to the Juniors

A boot in the nuts? Awe come on, you had to see that coming.

==>

Holy quick reply Batman! A new record.

I had in mind an entirely different outcome..

My brass balls... your bare foot...

always two sides of a debate...

Struble on the other hand.... no debate!

As much as I'm cheering for Reiss/Whitehead I don't see them in the top 3. They don't have the tactical discipline and experience (yet) especially mixed in with this fleet, but . . . I do expect them to finish high in their first race (bullet?)for several reasons: they spend alot of time on this boat and will have the youth week and confidence under their belt going on now, the fleet hasn't sorted A/B yet, as well as they will know the nuisances of the course. The rest of the fleet will take a race or two to get it dialed in. I do agree with Jake, only difference is I place more confidence in Pitt. Plus, Jake has over 9,000 posts. That's got to be worth something! Right?

1. Struble
2. Glaser
3. JC or Pitt
5. (here it gets muddy)Chu or Key or Reiss

I'm going with
1 - Struble
2 - Pitt
3 - Casey
4 - Glaser
.....

I'm also predicting that if the Pitt's get two OCS's, they'll sink the RC boat and head for the airport...

Do we need to be reminded of what took place last year?

http://championships.ussailing.org/Assets/Championships/USMHC/2010/results.pdf

The year before that..

http://championships.ussailing.org/Assets/Championships/USMHC/2009/2009+Results.pdf


That might help make the decision.

I'm open and I'm not a betting man.


Mike

Different boat this year eliminating some of the F18 teams from the competition due to weight.

Hope they will have good wind.

I hope Gary and Norman don't read this but I don't think the Chu's will break the top ten. They've been out of it too long and did less than mediocer while campaigning the T. I do think with time they will be a top team but just not yet.

It's a bit light (for Long Beach) today, overcast and 6 knots. After 2 complete it's Taylor Reiss, Sarah Newberry, Matt Struble, Nigel Pitt top 4. Lot's of racing to go. We should get 3 complete in today, more results later.

After 3 complete in light winds it's Reiss, Pitt, Struble, Newberry, Guiliano, Casey, your top 6.

Go Pitt! Sailing with his wife, Tammy.

I heard Casey got flushed in the last race ... it must have been tough out there.

results
day one report

Light winds again today, around 5 knots. The heavier teams are doing wind dances on the beach. The sun is trying to peak through. Preliminary results through 4 complete races. Pitt/Pitt 11, Struble/Lacasella 11, Guiliano/Guiliano 13, Newberry/Newberry 16, Reiss/Whitehead 18, Chu/Chu 22, Key/Williams 28, followed by Miller, Casey, Modderman, Moore, Glaser, Tartaglino, DeLave, Newsome, Hoag, Hill, Yandow, Nelson, Marshack.

Kevin

Who would ever thought that we would see Glaser and Casey in the B fleet for a short visit. Now Reiss gets flushed. Must be some tough calls out there. . .
Results, day 2

what is the pending protest?

There was a collision apparently at the last start.

Three boats were OCS. I'm not sure who.

probably the last three spots!

oh my, check the results now.

Day two report

Go team Newberry! Bet you guys didn't see that one coming!

Glad to see the ladies doing well! Anyone know what happened to Taylor and Matthew? A 10th & 11th!

As for the 10, it's fairly light so it could have been as simple as making bad choice early or late and then not having enough time to dig out of the hole. The 10 earned them a trip to B fleet which they won. The best you can do in B fleet is an 11 that's why it's quite painful to get flushed. Since they won B fleet they are now back in A fleet (top 3 in B go to A, bottom 3 in A go to B).

Am I reading too much in to this or is there a changing of the guard?

I'm sorry what are you asking me?

If there is a significant change in the talent pool.

What happened in the protest!? That seems to have shaken things up a lot. I think Reiss had a 7 before the protest and now he has a 1 (working from memory)?

Earlier on they only showed 4 races in the results. The difference is the inclusion of the additional races. Probably waited on results of protests to post those results.

Ah! That's a good question. I have a feeling things could get shaken up if the breeze turns on. There are some teams doing very well in conditions that probably don't suite them and when they get what they want things could change significantly. Regardless how this shakes out we are looking at the future stars in the US beach cat world.

It is nice to see our younger sailors doing well. I'm also thrilled to see Sarah and her sister doing so well, the Newberry/Livingston's are good people (I'm a fan). She has also been doing a lot of racing in the highly competitive H16 class and it shows.

+1 ladies are good for sailing.

Sara and Elizabeth sure do seem to be posting very consistent results in what appear to be challenging conditions for sure.

Yesterday's protest did not involve Taylor and Matt (better get that memory chip checked Jake). A request for redress following a prestart foul was denied.

Today's forecast is for 10 knots or so at noon, building a little into the afternoon.

Thanks Philip for linking to the results, They should be up after every cycle.

Not really. You have a boat with no minimum crew weight requirements and you have light air. Light teams have a huge advantange especially on a boat like the F16.

This.

[this is me making absolutely no comments about the "W" word]

Anyone want to speculate what the crew weights are?

How about crew weight and their current place?

Anyone?

Mike

sssshhhh!

Don't you know when to be politically correct! The F16 class does not believe that boat or crew weight is significant.

Underway at noon in about 8knots. Not near as much gloom today and it's trying to burn off.

You're wrong here cupcake, its just not a set number. You have to be capable of righting the boat. In extremely light air and flat water I probably wouldn't weigh enough sailing singlehanded, and therefore under weight.

The Viper class rules do have a minimum weight for both configurations, however I believe this event is being sailed under F16 rules.

are there two score drops or one this year?

http://media.ussailing.org/Latest_News/2011/2011_Multihull_Preview.htm

"Twenty races are scheduled. Three races must be completed to constitute a championship. When fewer than six races have been completed, a team’s series score will be the total of all scores. When six or more races have been completed, a team’s series score will be the total of its race scores excluding its worst excludable score."

The issue for ISAF will be... what is the optimum weight for a two up viper... It sounds like they have had 5 knots in all of their races, so they would be above any wind limit.... Some argue the optimum for a 16 footer will be 260 ish... for obvious reasons the class would argue that the optimum is closer to 310. The jury is still out.

The optimum for the Tornado and F18 class boats are pretty well known... As Vipers go through ISAF trials...events like the USSA championships will be analyzed to figure this key point out.

Olympic sailors know the average wind at the ISAF gold cup events and since most have to score well at these to qualify their country and win their countries slot.... they will want to be at optimum weight.... if the Olympic venue is a big wind place... they know they can bulk up.

Any one heard any updates?

I sure hope they get more varied conditions for the remaining races. Another reason for having it as a five day event...

No Mark, it isn't.

got some regatta results and team weights to share... this championship has a pretty even set of top racers....
light seems good so far!

post some numbers ... ISAF will be looking for them as well.

Results are up. See link above

One of the challenges with the F16 is that it seems to have a very large 'optimal' crew weight range. The optimal weight greatly depends on the conditions. The lighter the crew the sooner they're trapping and able to sail much higher and faster than the heavier teams. On the flip side, when the wind gets over 10kts the '260 teams' become at a disadvantage which only grows as the wind picks up. To some extent this applies to most cats, but it really seems magnified on the F16 due to the variations in speed it is capable of producing.

Glad to see the youth teams doing so well. They've been training a lot and it is definitely noticeable.

http://championships.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=14452

13 knts in race 9A

World Class helms like Carolijn Brewer can sail light and minimize the disadvantage as the wind builds (see last years Euro results).

You also see this effect when single handers are sailing in that 6 to 10 knot range. They are just fast.

Should it make it through the ISAF trials... I predict the Olympic fleet will settle on light ... (set the boat up for the lulls)

Can't tell if Newberry got a 7 or 9 in that race.

9 . . . . and FLUSHED.

OOOOMMMFFFF. That hurts.

Nothing from today? The top three spots are very close!

Make that top four...

On the beach in Long Beach. Already seeing about 9 knots, getting set for a noon start. Gonna' try to get 4 heats off today, that will make an 11 race series. Only 3 teams have yet to be flushed; Pitt/Pitt, Guiliano/Guiliano, and Struble/Lacasella.

Mark, It doesn't matter who the sailor is. All the Olympic tornado teams were extremely close in terms of boat speed and maneuvers. Interestingly, even on the Tornado the crew weight differences we're obvious from light to heavy weather conditions. On the F16 that weight sensitivity is magnified.

Sailing at 260lbs in 12kts is a definite disadvantage against a team at 310lbs and a huge advantage in 6-8kts. But if all teams are around 260-280 then it really doesn't matter.

Problem arises when teams try to optimize their weight for the anticipated wind conditions (look at the things teams did for China). The racing becomes more about guessing the correct weight instead of the sailing.

Thanks Kevin. Good job!

Wow. What a last day for the championship. Looks like 3 teams have the best chance to win it, one a co-ed team, and another a youth team. Newberry will have an (at best) 11 in race 10. So . . .
after 9 races Struble has a 3 point lead over Reiss, 4 point lead over Pitt. Getting that 4th race in today could mean everything. And I expect Newberry mixing it up in Race 11,12,13? and could provide the total points separation between the first and second overall leaders in a spoiler. Damn exciting!

No updates? Should be over by now.

Final Results here.
If this is correct, Congratulations to the Champion Matt Struble/ Damon Lacasella with a one point lead over Taylor Reiss/ Matthew Whitehead. A HUGE congratulations to Taylor and Matthew for an outstanding finish. Looking forward to hearing the details.

Struble Wins Record Breaking Fourth U.S. Multihull Championship

I'm confused as to the record breaking statement. Didn't Smyth win 4 championships? Although he competed in more than 4, but still . . .

Congratulations to Matt & Damon for their win. Well done to all the crews.

Also, well done to Jill & Robbie from Red Gear Racing for the amazing effort they have put into this championships - Not just this year, but the previous 3 years.

And well done to all their "Pitt Crew" for keeping the Vipers on the water and in A1 condition. If it wasn't for guys like this there would be no championship.

It is interesting to note that in the top 5 places there were 3 all guys teams, 1 all girls, and 1 mixed team. Really shows the versatility of the Viper

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!! Dave Ingram called this one. Wish you coulda' been here Dave, this place rocks!

Right on Helen,




And another proof is in that racing the Viper / F16's is fair to a wide range of crew weights.

So much for gut-feelings that such a boat will enormously favour featherweights. It simply doesn't. Are you paying attention Mark ?

Wouter

Congrats to the winners and many thanks to the organisors and boatsuppliers !

Wouter

Are you kidding me... Strubble has a world championship on his resume.... The ladies don't.

Struble commented about the weight issue and how problematic it was for them.

OJX put it well about the unique nature of the F16 designs..

One more minor point on the issue, the F16's are weight sensitive in a very very different way then say a Hobie 16 or a Dart 18.

IF ISAF picks an F16 flavor, the Olympic fleet will land on the weight range that gets them qualified and to the games. The range will be similar to previous Olympic fleets +/- 10 to 15 pounds and the mean will be on the low end relative to Men's or Open classes. The boat should drop out of the equation. If it doesn't... it would be a terrible Olympic choice.

I don't suppose any weights were taken.

It seems to me weight was NOT an issue and would only become an issue if the wind was constant throughout the series.

My take away is: at this level, champions don't make mistakes.

You couldn't be more wrong on this one.

We have been hearing this BS for years now and each time differences in skill have triomphed over weight differences. We all have access to this race data over the last 10 years.

What more do you guys want ?

Sure, single-gear race cars will have their day but they won't win the all-out series of races that determine the Championship.

That is part of racing catamarans no matter what the class; incl. the F18's, Tornado's and SUPER DUPER Nacra 20's. Why hold the F16's to a different benchmark.

The Olympic Viper teams will NOT converge to 260 lbs teams, that is just too light for these boats when racing over the full spectrum of conditions. Haven't we learned anything from that Chupacabra disaster of the Beijing Olympics ?

Specialisation is for insects, not racing catamarans.

For every Struble I introduce a Brouwer with opposing views.

Wouter

Umm, isn't there a video where Carolijn says they had no problems being fast in the windy conditions and they weighed 119kg??

The simple fact is that top level teams will target a lighter weight than currently seen as optimal. They will work harder on the boat and simply learn to sail it better in the heavy conditions. There is data that shows every class that is made Olympic sees a weight drop of 8-9kg per athlete as the top teams learn how to sail the boats better.

This will become even more critical if a 16ft boat is chosen.

So, what you are saying since I'm 175 I should go ahead and sell my boat and get completely out of sailing? 175 is too heavy for an A-cat too. My body fat percentage is no more than 14 percent, so I don't think I'm fat and wouldn't be considered fat by anyone's standards.

You and a bunch of other people are so racist when it comes to weight and other things, no wonder the sport is taking a nose dive.

Let's go back to last year's F18 nationals. If I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong Macca, didn't you have one of the heaviest boats and heavier crew weights? Where did you place?

I'm quoting you here cause you are basically saying you have to have skill to be able to do well in varying conditions.

Or am I wrong and as soon as I see a light weight crew show up, I should pack my boat up and go home?

Is that what you are saying? If you are, i'm selling my boat tomorrow and I'm done with it!

Mike

How much do you want for it?

You guys are being baited by the chief of the "I hate F16s" tribe.

Never forget this is a trade war. Every F16 sold represents a lost sale for another class.

My reference is to the potential for crew weights to drop in the f16 if that class was made Olympic.

If you are sailing anything other than Olympic level then you will be more than ok and can continue to enjoy your boat as you have been.

But the Olympics is a different game, laser sailors stress about 1kg weight differences etc. And at that level it makes a difference.

As for the 2010 USA F18 nats, we borrowed a boat and it was heavier than min weight. Our crew weight was just over min, 154kg I think. We were beaten in a light air event by a lighter team..

My interest is in the F16 class.

Aren't you all forgetting that the majority of the world sailors are not as heavy as the typical American, I would say 70 - 75kgs for a man and somewhat lighter for the lady, would be pretty typical of most other sailors.

We cannot pick a boat just on what is the average in America or Australasia

What weight? The F16 class doesn't have a minimum weight.

WHAT?? I think we Americans need to introduce the rest of the World to Duncan Donuts! Let them bulk up to our weights! Why should we have to get off our fat arses and get down to 3rd world weights just to compete?!

BTW, my new crew is an 80lb. 12yr. old boy I bought for 100 Rupees in India...sure, he's light, but my fat azz will make up for it! And he doesn't eat much! It's Win-Win!

So I'm fat but like to sail 2-up in F16, F18 and (preferably) N20. In light air, why don't I just move the hulls in by 6" so the boat heels sooner?

You engineer dudes figure out how far I have to move them in at 400 lbs. The classes only specify maximum beam, right? Maybe with that much weight I have to remove one hull completely

Sounds like a good solution would be a min crew weight rule of 140kg, roughly 310 lbs for events where teams will take it to extremes, ie. Olympics.

Would Matthew and Taylor make the 310 min.?

If we're going to discuss weight, I'd at least like to see where we are in the real world.

Kris

IF ISAF likes the 16 foot format for mixed multihull then ISAF will write a set of class rules that defines the Olympic Class. It's very likely, that they will spec out rules like the OD Tornado class. (The T class had to capitulate to what ISAF wanted at the time in their attempt to remain Olympic) The T class OD rules or an even tighter SMOD are probably what you are looking at going forward.) They won't have to set a crew weight minimum... by fixing the sail design to basically SMOD ... the crew weights will be automatically set.

If they do not, then they (the boat) would carry additional weight.

It just seems like we're fumbling around in the dark.

I wonder if USS (I just re-uped for three years) would be interested in collecting weight data, just to see what's really happening.

Provided that the ISAF specifies a sail plan large enough to merit an optimized crew weight of 310 lbs, yes? If that is the case, why stir the pot in the first place?

As noted earlier, weight is an issue for all beach cats at the extremes. We even had an ARC-22 race single handed in light winds and beat the pants off of everyone, corrected just this last month. Frankly, racing in 5 kts is BS anyway and you are going to be hardpress to find any beachcat where crew weight is not an issue in those winds.

Too late to request USS to collect the info for this year's event. Perhaps soliciting the teams yourself? It would be nice because so many of the variables are constant due to the same boat model with rotation. If conducting multivariate analysis, I would have crew weight, wind strength, and order of finish as my initial variables and result. Thereafter, a simple rating factor might be added to try to control for "race experience" and/or familiarity with the F16/Viper platform. There should be enough observations from the race to make a pretty good analysis of the crew weight's coefficient of determination except that there may not have been enough higher winds races.

Right!... don't stir the pot for the class. I agree.

The provided boats model is always tough to interpret because you can't tune the boat for your weight and sail.... but the championship of champions does add quite a bit of talent to a small class. In this circumstance the crew weights becomes a bit more determinative and obvious. With ISAF trials coming for the Mixed multi discipline and the criteria for selection a bit murky.... The issues that matter to the Olympic level will bubble to the top.

At the end of the day... The Olympic guys and gals will show up for one ISAF grade I event... (Miami OCR's.) They will also organize a pre regatta before the OCR's.... Will the rank and file in any current class that ISAF draws from configure into a mixed teams and then spend the money and suffer the headaches of Miami to get crushed on the water. (Don't underestimate the psychology of DFL 10 minutes behind the pack and then a 10 mile sail back to the beach)

I think wind strength was posted. But yes, if the teams would volunteer the information it would be helpful.

It just seems to me the weight question has been around forever and I'm surprised why there is no effort to add facts to the debate. It's like the philosophers arguing how many teeth a horse has, but noone counting.

You have the US F16 Nationals coming up in two months and F16 Worlds next month. Are there any plans to record team weights?

Hmm... has the F16 Class collected finish times at their NA's or even any of the scheduled one design events... before you worry about two up crew weights versus wind speed... how about the one up versus two up debate.

The analysis that Kris suggests really needs time data as well.

None that I am aware of at the moment. More variables exist in those events. US Sailing's Multihull Championship is perfect in that it holds the boat variable constant.

It wouldn't be a problem, we have the scales. Glad to act as the weight committee.*

There is no class rule requiring it that I'm aware of.

* I weight myself five times a week. No matter how long I stare, the dial doesn't move.

Time data would be nice but it is not necessary with the Alter Cup data. It is extra overhead on the RC and was not collected at the Alter Cup (I think). It is already "captured" between the wind strength variable and order of finish resultant. It would allow predictions on the timed margin of "victory" but does not help any with analyzing the crew weight variable and its influence on the results given the other data that is available.

I read a study done in the '70s regarding weight and a number of other variables.

Their finding regarding weight was a penalty of 1 second per lb. per mile.

I did not know there were any one-ups at the Alter Cup . Stay focused Mark. The discussion from the event is about crew weight relative to wind strength. Wandering off on tangents only muddies the water and ultimately results in a mash-up with little resolution.

Using the Alter Cup as your measuring stick for determining the effect of crew weight on performance may not be your best bet. While all crews are sailing the same boats, the boats are also set up identically. Adusting and tuning of the rig to maximize the boats performance for your weight and conditions is not permitted. ie....heavier crews were not permitted to power up their rigs in the light stuff and light crews were not allowed to depower their rigs in the heavier stuff.

Doesn't that leave just skill and weight as variables?

Yes, but you have amplified the impact crew weight has on the outcome of a race.

Amplified or isolated? I suppose a towing test would be better.

Weight has been a question as long as I can remember, I'd just like to gather some facts.

You are thinking in the extremes. Sure, the boats are set up the same general range. Sure it is not optimized to the extreme for feathweight or monster teams but close enough that the downhaul, rotation, outhaul, and sheeting can control the sail shape pretty damn well. I am sure that AHPC/Red Line Racing setup the boats (thanks guys!) the best they could according to the conditions every day such that it was not an overwhelming variable. You get much better data holding the boats constant than introducing the additional variable set associated with differently tuned boats. Further, the beauty of multivariant regression analysis is that it works on averages and produces variable coefficients that can also be mathematically assessed in terms of reliability and probability. Obviously, there could also be outlyer tests conducted on the data to assess if a team's result(s) are out of the normal range of expected outcomes.

Huh?

BTW, full results are up.

On the US Sailing site.

So Nigel got flushed. Would someone explain how you have two 9's in race 10A.

I still remember some of the basics from my econometrics studies. Multiple regression modeling is a very statistically sound method to analyze data of this sort. Not only to you derive the coefficients for the variables but there are "tests" to determine the confidence level of the individual coefficients. Then there are further "test" to assess outlyers and "goodness of fit" of the model.

Dead heat? Maybe both DNF or DNS?

Probably a redress situation.

I am a catamaran sailor. I have no use for your voodoo science!

LOL...That is my response once the engineers start equating!!!

Can anybody enlighten us. He did not start his last race (21). Beuller?

Maybe Krantz indeed predicted this one. . . .

Because it wouldn't have made a difference. His best score would have been 11 and would still be his throwout.

Would you score two boats that were OCS 9's or 10's?

A4.2 A boat that did not start, did not finish, retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series. A boat that is penalized under rule 30.2 or that takes a penalty under rule 44.3(a) shall be scored points as provided in rule 44.3(c).

OCS is the same thing as DNS.

..

Fair enough....

I think that one up versus two up data will have more impact on a new class but OK...

The only interesting issue to me would be... is the F16 package more or less weight sensitive relative to an F18 design.... Is the F16 design more or less weight sensitive relative to a Tornado. Is the F16 more or less weight sensitive to the F18HT.

So, you would need all four data sets. Holding the rig constant as in the Alter cup eliminates a variable but what I want to know is ... how fair the package will be in Beufort 2 to 4 winds and what is the crew weight range and median.

IMO, the lightweight two man boats (M20's,F18HT's and F16's) behave a bit differently then the heavyweight two man boats (F18, N20's and Tornadoes).

(PS... with all of the android and apple phones in the world... How come we don't have an app that allows you to enter some sail numbers (voice or keyboard) and tap them as they cross the line and put the data directly into your scoring program... This app would definitely solve RC hedaches)

Tough series. The winner wins without a bullet and second place wins with 5 bullets missing by 1 point.

The old thowout race for every 5 races would have changed things. (10 vs 4) Consistency!

or the old 3/4 of a point for a bullet would have changed the winner by a 1/4 of a point.

The old Olympic scoring would have changed the results also in favor of the boys.

I'd say consistency was the key.

If you look at the results, most of the races he got 3rd place, even in winds that would favor the heavier crews of 16kts, he got a 2nd. In theory, with all of this weight sensitive stuff going around, he should have gotten a 1st, but it went to Taylor and Matthew. Or does Taylor and Matthew weigh less than Struble?

Again, no one has even guessed how much the teams weight, I'm sure there are enough people on this board who can guess on half of these teams weight, but no one wants to pipe up.

What's the deal with that, are you afraid of something?

Are you afraid of been proven wrong?

If you also notice at the full results, it has at what speed the winds were in each race.

We can deduce a lot of different things by the results. From what I can tell, the teams that have the skills, can over come some of the weight sensitivity issues that a lot of you perceive here.

Mark has the right idea though, is the F16 design more or less weight sensitive than the other boats. There's a spectrum here, just like the F18's. But, it seems everytime the F16's do a race, the weight issue always comes up from someone, WHY? Are you afraid to admit something?

Here's what I'll admit to...

The F16's have an all around competitive weight of about 285 to 320'ish. 320 is pushing it, but it can be done. If you are getting on either side of that by too many lbs, there will be a disadvantages on both sides of the wind spectrum. I'll also admit, that if the F16 does some how get selected for the Olympics, that the limits will be pushed one way or the other. That will depend on the teams. Mark and Macca could be correct in that if they get chosen you will see the teams be feather weights. So what, at least I'll admit to it that that could happen.

Can anyone else admit to something here? Or am I the only one who is being honest with themselves?


Mike

I admit nothing!

I admit that Mike has had too much coffee this morning !!

Consistency won. Taylor/Matt are damn good on the F16 and had good practice time on the same waters and boat (cut down main?) the week before. They are very skilled and proved that they can sail in light and high winds. I was not there and do not know the circumstances but 1 bad luck/lost focused race flushed them and was the difference between the Cup and 2nd. There were other recognizable F16 teams that had consistency issues also that would have been in the hunt otherwise. They would do well in the lighter wind races but would have 1 or 2 poor results in similar winds. If anything, the way to NOT win is to get flushed.

Whatever the case, they are all great sailors and I am lucky anytime I get to compete (I use the term loosely) against any of the competitors at the event.

Cut down main? No. Club sails were left in Florida.

JC's take on the front page of SA today.

JC's SA post definitely hints that he sees a favor towards light sailors in light conditions (duh), but really, would you expect different. If its light air light sailors will always do better. I really don't see the point / worry to this.

Olympic sailors, with their federations behind them will investigate the prevailing winds for the Olympic venue and will decide on their weight and hit that target no matter what boat they choose. Look at China for an example of expected light air and a bunch of starving Laser sailors (also as an example of how hard weather predicting can be...). Sure the boat has a range, probably between 280 and 330 combine, much like the F18 has a range of somewhere between 300 - 360 (pulling these out of my hat, don't quote me on those) and if you are off either end you you suffer in respective conditions, so does a laser, a Finn, a 49er, etc etc.

Just don't get the point of this weight discussion. The olympic boat should be based on junior development abilities, quality of build, technicality of sailing the boat, ability for the most countries to compete, etc etc. Let the athletes (and their coaches) decide what works. Unlike most weekend warriors, they will go to the gym, hit the bike, row the machine until they are the right size for whatever boat and venue gets chosen. It's all part of the game.

/end rant

my 3 cents

Everything you say is spot on. But there is something else.

Personally, I think the lite boats offer new challenges to sail relative to a heavyweight boat because where,how and when,you move your weight is bigger factor in making the boat go. (At the last trials, the Olympic sailors raved about the M20's speed and responsiveness as being a real challenge)

What some of us are speculating is that the F16 is a bit more sensitive to total weight WITHIN it's range then say an F18. The race results, fleet experience and JC's report support this conclusion.

It will take an Olympic level fleet to figure out if the lite weight boats are more sensitive to weight in their design range and by how much.

WOW! 230 lb team in 5-7 kts of wind is going to be tough to beat on almost any beachcat! Though it is a huge disadvantage to the heavier teams once the wind picks up with the F16 sailplan and many other beachcats.

Just for clarity relative to USF16 Class. Pete stepped down as class president in April and the Alter Cup was conducted under Viper Class rules.

For Nigel it was a redress situation. They had trouble with the spinnaker halyard. Unfortunately, they rounded the leeward mark in ninth so that is all the Judges could do for them.

They were just about to shove off the beach for the last race, but decided that going home with a full deposit was a good idea and it would not have changed their score.

We had the boat they were supposed to use for the last race and had all kinds of spin halyard problems so it would have been really frustrating if it happened to them in back to back races.

Sarah and Elizabeth did not have poor performance because of high wind. I think they got a bad start. Some of the races were only about 20 minutes long so you had to be on it.

Interesting observation that isn't apparent in the cold hard facts of race results.

Damon and I were 340 lbs. The F-16 is a great boat, but a weight range of 260 - 300 sounds more like it to me. Being heavy we suffered in the light air and the heavy air. The most impressive sailing angle of the boat to me, was how hard you could sail it down wind.

Matt

340 is a lot! Very impressive performance.

Anyone else care to list their weight?

181

165

317-342 depending on whether I weigh myself in the morning or evening.

235, give or take..

Of course, we really can't draw any conclusions unless we hear from the top ten.

What is that...in oz?

This horse is dead already.

No conclusions are going to come from this no matter how much “data” is dug up. If there are 20 minute races, no amount of weight difference is going to make up for a bad start or a missed tack, so whatever result you want to slant to fit your weight politics will continue ad nausea.

Olli summed it up very well. Weight is critical- how you use it is more so and with a fat hull multi with a spin it not just “less is better” but is condition dependant. The lighter the boat with more power/weight the more obvious the difference. Light teams will have an advantage in lighter winds and flat seas, while heavy teams become advantaged as the conditions more to bigger seas and winds. (There are some trim issues with comparing uni to sloop rigged F16 – but the real problem as the wind increases is uni guys not having the weight to make the boat perform)

Earlier in this thread the Olympic issue was raised. With the Olympics they are planning and training for 1 event in 1 location. The crew weight lottery is part of that extreme commitment to gain any advantage at all cost. For everyone else who race all the time, we see a variety of conditions and in the end it all averages out.

Kilotons.
I'm tellin' ya "I'm the next big thing".
I'm so big I make Tad look like Tinkerbelle.
I'm so big when I wear my Malcolm X shirt ,helicopters try to land on me.
I'm so big smaller me's orbit me.

Round is a shape.

Not where it counts!!! :P

You're so big that you eat with a Trident.
You're so big that when you go to the movies you sit next to everybody.
You're so big you make big bird look like Tweety.

Yeah, I'll admit you do have a bigger mouth and computer!
By the way, where's my rum? With interest you're at a Gallon and a half. Flore De Cana would be fine.

(Engineers chime in here), I would suspect that as crew weight becomes a greater % of total platform weight, the placement of said crew weight becomes more and more critical (think skiffs and foiling moth).

In addition, weight contributes to inertia, so this would help in waves and righting moment, giving an advantage in higher wind/choppy seas somewhat.


I would also suspect that within a certain wind range (say 10kts - 18 kts), a multihull would be very competitive in a wide crew-weight range (300 - 375 lb in the case of the F18, maybe?). Outside of this wind range (really light or really heavy) you'd see some noticable performance differences.

But given these weight/windspeed constraints, I would venture that sailor skill is the dominating factor in race performance.

For me personally, I feel that the smaller the boat, the less forgiving it is to bad weight placement, sail trim, poor transition (tack/gybe) sets/douses, etc. Which is why I'm still a fan of the 20's 'cause it would make even a hack like me fast in most conditions..

Certainly... that is why class exists at all.... People agree that X class is an acceptably level playing field.... especially because sailing is so complex that skill, and course management are essential factors of the game. Within this weight band... its worthwhile to play even though weigh matters.

When your team weight gets outside of the band... 1) you know it...and 2) you accept the challenge and go racing. So at the rank an file level... every team makes the decision... is it fun or worth while to race if I am outside the general band. BUT...You will scream bloody murder if the RC or fleet won't go racing when the wind is up and the field tilts in your favor.... or only schedules events or shows up for events in light air venues.

Now you see how the class decides on minimum crew weights, Wind speed minimums and maximums. When you legislate the playing field by putting a min crew weight you can keep more people in the class. Never underestimate the psychology of finishing a leg behind in a light air race to some featherweights... It may only score as one place behind ... BUT... you will not do that often.. Min crew weights regulate this a bit.

The other solution is to build overpowered boats for light air regions. The original nacra f18... the Inter 18 was sold in the the US with a taller carbon stick because Nacra thought it needed more horsepower for the light air sailing regions plus min crew weight. The N20 followed that trend.... overpowered narrow boat with min crew weight.

Something that gets neglected in these discussions is skill relative to the wind as well.
When the wind is right in the easy middle range, everyone can make the boat go. There is enough power to keep things moving and enough time to make adjustments if needed. The less skilled sailors start dropping out the back of the fleet as soon as the wind becomes very light or very heavy. Reading the wind and maintaining momentum in very light stuff, or maintaining speed and control in the heavy conditions both take a lot more skill and time to master.

If you use the same techniques etc to sail the boat in heavy air as you would in light, you are going to be very slow. Same for weight; if you try to hit the same angle of attack etc, you are done and flushed out the back. The extraordinarily bad finish is not a weight issue it is still the driver. Sail the boat for the conditions, crew and wind, and you will be very competitive over a very large range of both.

"Fascinating" as these past few pages have been...

...in the immortal words of the random fan in Major League, in response to the home run after his buddy was saying "Too high, too high..."

"Who gives a s...? It's gone!"

Congrats to Matt and Damon, and for all the teams that showed up and raced well, regardless of their weight!

Mike

Great Point!
The implication is that in looking at performance factors in breeze, you really only want to look at the really accomplished racers. They have probably mastered these skills.

I want to add one more. Technique

The top A cat sailors are now working on trapping out going down wind in breeze... proving that it is faster! I don't care what you weigh... this skill is extra ordinary!
Sailing an A cat to beat these guys means that you have to match their technique irrespective of crew weight.


Next point... Fact of life... some boats are going to be more challenging to sail. Single handed trapping down wind on an F16 and going around the cans will be much harder then double handing the same boat... Sailing this boat to it's rating will be a lot harder....AND there is still a weight factor in the performance. Bottom line... it's a complex game. Great fun!

Final thought... we always have the option of dropping 15 to 20 lbs to drop into your favorite boats weight band.

Random thought:

We have minimum weight restrictions, why don't we have regulations on height? I'm starting to think it is completely unfair for the height impaired to be racing against tall people, (especially the tall stringy phuckers) and I really think we need to come up with a number, (probably the absolute shortest recorded adult height), and use that for the max height, anyone else should NOT be allowed to compete. In the interest of creating a level playing field where it is truly about the sailors skill, and not about his or her physical attributes I see this as another hurdle that must be taken into account.

You a phunny tall stringy phucker.

OK technically I agree but they should be allowed to compete on purely PC grounds and " human rights " laywers would have a field day.

What about the Pamela Andersons of the world, how we goner deal with them ?

I thought the boom took care of the aforementioned freakishly tall noodles.

Oh, and the jumble of lines on the trampoline should serve as Spidey-web to wrap up those guys.

Speaking of noodles, I'd bet a cheap swim noodle wrapped around the boom could save quite a few bell-ringers...

Hi all,

Now for something completely different ... Does anyone know whether the boats of the Viper fleet used in the Alter Cup will be up for sale second hand ?

Who would be managing such a sale ?

Thx for any tips & BR

I don't know specifically - but contact Jill at Red Gear Racing. They're the US importer that provided the boats.

http://www.redgearracing.com/1.html

They are for sale, I think most have already been sold, might be one or two left. Contact Jill (see above link for redgearracing) asap if you are interested.

I would highly recommend an Alter Cup boat, they are already tweeked and ready to be sailed!