"batch-nominal elastic modulus of the fibers in an FRP laminate with the modulus measured with impregnated tows, by extensometers, between 1000 and 6000 microstrains; the Measurement Committee will accept the following testing methods (and may accept other similar methods): SACMA-SRM16, ASTM D 4018, or JIS R 7601;"
Several of the rules I like: No trim adjustments to foils No water ballast No boundary layer technology on hulls Manual power only (no more generators, etc.) Limited use of electronics, wireless, weather tracking, etc. Inclusion of cameras and microphones for spectators.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/1204:37 AM
I think I saw an interview where Larry discussed 17 around the time of the DoG event. Wish I could remember the exact reason, but he's had a bunch of boats with that number, and apparently has won some major events running that number.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/1203:08 PM
I'll post 'em here since I don't post, let alone even visit that internet cesspool...
At one point as I was watching 17 sail, I notices that the T Foil on the rudder was lifting more that the board. The boat was sailing bow down. I was about .25 miles off, so it was difficult to see exactly what was going on, but I assume that this is when the board broke.
Having seen the tips of F18 boards sink after a breakage, I assumed that the foil probably sunk. It was reported to me later in the day that one of the chase boats picked it up; it was floating.
Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1203:13 AM
Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?
If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1207:00 PM
Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?
I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1211:55 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?
If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.
The rules prohibit any underwater adjustment of the foils (flaps, etc.)...but they do have the ability to hydraulically tilt the daggerboards fore and aft quite a bit. The hydraulic power comes from the manual winching stations.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1211:56 AM
Originally Posted by daniel_t
Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?
I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.
It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1212:07 PM
Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1212:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.
The exact same system has been used on Dutch merchant ships since the 1600s. There are extensions going to each side so he can steer from both hulls though, no need to stand on the center platform.
The steering action is the exact reverse of a normal tiller though, I wonder if they changed that somehow.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1202:00 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.
Don't count on it. They're going to optimize every ounce of righting moment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1203:26 PM
Wow! How Cool is that!
I guess they will indeed be foiling in the AC races, that should liven it up a bit! I can't wait to hear what the Lead Bottom Leaning Society at SA will have to say about this!
Can't wait to see just how fast these things will be!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1204:20 PM
Well, if they do crash, at those speeds, it should be spectacular!
Many years ago when we were having a discussion here about how to get more mainstream TV coverage for sailboat racing, I said we needed to make it more like NASCAR, with faster speeds and more 'crashes'. I guess they finally have!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1207:47 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
rules do not allow use of the windward foil, I do remember reading something about exceptions (rule 47.3)
Here is the skinny on rule 47.3:
47.3 Preventing windward daggerboard increasing righting moment After starting, an AC72 yacht shall have the windward board draft stripe(s) visible so to confirm that the board is no more than 0.500 m below MWP, unless one of the following applies: (a) the windward board does not penetrate the surface of the water for more than 15 continuous seconds; (b) the yacht is within 300m of a mark; (c) the yacht is within 30 seconds prior to and after tacking or gybing; (d) the yacht is sailing less than 15 knots; (e) the yacht is sailing at less than 90% of its performance relative to the other yacht(s); (f) the yacht is taking a penalty.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1201:08 AM
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
...Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect. ..
That's probably why you and SA weren't a good fit. ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1202:37 PM
Excellent article on the technology, broadcast television, speed, close up racing, etc. Plus read about the involvement and background of a key player named Stan Honey. Making the America's Cup a spectator sport
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1206:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Those two videos are very interesting, and you see what happens at 2:15 on the last one, when they stuff the bows!
I liked the other video above too, where Juan K talks about the C Class, and says "...what have we been doing the past 20 years, these things are so much more efficient!" (wing rigs).
BUT...we know the C Class did try foiling for awhile, and they gave up on it, right? It wasn't paying off on a closed course, right? Or are some of them still doing it around the bouys? Grant Dalton mentions he's not sure if foiling will pay off on a short bouy type course.
SO...are we seeing "The Next BIG Thing" here, in the evolution of sailing technology, and when can I get some L foils and a wing rig for my F16? ;^)
Like I said a long time ago, just hook two Moths together and off we go!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1206:21 PM
Listening to the comments surrounding the teams, my guess is that they are going to be shooting for a semi-foiling mode off the wind and a near full flotation mode upwind. There is a happy point between weight, available power, and efficient foiling. I think the Moth's are just able to come in under this point with one very light (single-hull) boat so they can foil all the way around a race course efficiently. I don't think we have the technology to have a boat light enough to do this on much of a larger scale yet. While we can definitely build a catamaran to foil to weather, it's suffers with wind and water drag to carry it's own weight. It's going to either sail slowly as the foil drag increases with reduced speed or have to sail so far off the wind in order to keep enough power to stay on foils that same water-borne craft will get to A-mark faster because it can sail much higher.
So, if you give up fully foiling to weather, you have to look at how much foil drag you are willing to carry up to A-mark so you can rocket downwind. My bet is that the happy-point is going to be having just enough foil to make the boat really light on the water while going downwind without becoming completely air-borne on foils. This might also make sense given the fact that they aren't allowed any type of active control surfaces under the water and their racing area is a really choppy piece of water.
The "S" boards on NZ are a good indication of this as well (they can change the angle of attack of the horizontal part of their foil as they lift it).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:19 PM
Timbo, In reference to the C's foiling not working, Magnus Clarke said he thought that the extra horsepower of the AC45's and 72s could remedy the problems they had with "off yer rocker", so I wouldn't compare C's to the 45s or 72s .Apples and Oranges.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:38 PM
I think it's funny that they need a powerboat with 1200 horsepower to keep up with the AC72... talk about carbon footprint
Another question popped into my head. Would slapping a wing on a "regular" catamaran cause problems since it can generate so much more speed, forcing the semi-displacement hulls into a pitch-pole?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:56 PM
Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.
I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1210:29 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.
I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.
Have a big bank account and a bigger ability to keep your boat pointy side up. Jay, with current design hulls I don't think the wing would necessarily force you into a pitchpole, but the extra weight aloft of it can cause pitching moment than can certainly help go glub.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1203:21 AM
I would love to hear Ben's opinion of these AC boats rigs. Where is he now? Is he still racing A cats or is he busy building AC masts?
I did get to see his A cat Wing up close at Gulfport when he was there the year he was testing it, I was amazed at how quickly and easily he was able to step the thing. As he mentions in the aritcle, he tipped the boat up on it's side, next to his trailer box, and then just slid the wing out of the box and hooked it up. It was very quick.
I wish he had spent more time testing and developing it, has anyone seen it (the wing) lately?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1201:09 PM
He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me. Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it. Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1202:13 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me. Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it. Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280
Thanks for the links and info, interesting stuff! I guess from a speed standpoint, it -might- be a little faster, but from a practical standpoint, having to drop it every night at a regatta, etc, and god forbid you land on it if/when you flip...it could get ugly! A soft sail is pretty easy to roll up after sailing, and it stores in a much smaller box, weighs less, costs less, etc.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1206:16 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
You don't have to land on it ,just flipping can give you a very expensive , long term repair.
Given the nature of the new owner, I bet that the carbon specialists in his area are salivating :P
Or his indentured boatguy/ crew has alot to sort out, if he hasn't already. My prediction is the wing will be parts for trophies in no time, but I hope I'm way wrong.If I'm not I want a piece.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1202:44 PM
It didn't but.. I would think combined with the pitching moment the angle of attack of curved boards would change so much it could prove to be a hindrance.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1202:55 PM
Jake, You ready to get a CnC cutter to make Mike new ribs for that wing?
Mike, Nothing personal. I saw,first hand at the LAC, just how fragile those wings are. If you don't flip, you might be OK as far as major damage goes. It was rare for a wing to go out and not have to have something done to it when it came back. From simple Clysar repairs to loading it in the back of a pick-up bed in 100s of pieces.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1201:06 PM
here's a really nice summary of the various states of the teams...and foiling. As per Loick Peyron (always colorful), the bearaways in the bay may produce some moments where you would be glad to be wearing brown pants....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1202:47 PM
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1203:55 PM
Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1212:28 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1208:36 PM
Pretty cool . . . and smart. The "L" part of the board is a cassette and is interchangeable for different size/shape inserts. Wonder if the Kiwis did something similar.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1211:29 AM
Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28
Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions. Flexibility?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1201:13 AM
Originally Posted by Andinista
Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28
Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions. Flexibility?
I think it's safe to assume that Oracle has determined that platform flex is not that big of a deal. It seemed that way with the big trimaran too. The other teams have gone to great lengths with the posts and rigging to stiffen up the platforms at the cost of weight and wind drag...better or worse? dunno.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1202:33 AM
Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1212:32 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!
I've always wondered about that...I know it certainly feels better when the boat is rigid through the waves....but is it faster? People talk about energy lost when a wave makes the platform flex but it is kinda like a spring - you'll get a good bit of that "energy" back on the return...whether that's beneficial or not, I have no idea.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1202:51 PM
From the '70's onward the Tornado got faster the stiffer it became. Before the Marstrom, new Tornado's were fast. Finally Marstrom made the sfiffest Tornado with the autoclave technology, and changing the rear beam to the largest size under class rules helped too. Marstrom would not have gone to a larger (& stiffer) rear beam if it made the boat slower.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1206:17 PM
With foiling its all about light weight, is the extra stiffness on this sort of length of boat going to impede any chance of it foiling, due to the extra weight of the construction needed to prevent twist.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1208:48 PM
surprise surprise
it seems that fluttering
was tearing the boat apart...
"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:11 PM
Originally Posted by erice
surprise surprise
it seems that fluttering
was tearing the boat apart...
"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:20 PM
Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:25 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I think the flex is used as a foil control, not faster just a way to get around the "no manual control" rule.
How would flex be controlling the foiling? They can move the daggers tilting forward or back to control via a ram. I can't see how the boat flex would help them in any way.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:26 PM
Originally Posted by MN3
Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference
I think that The emirates video said any more than 5 minutes sailing untethered counted as a day.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/14/1202:34 AM
Set your DVR or watch it this Sunday on NBCSN or VERSUS at 2:30 PM EST. The Road to the America's Cup - Oracle Team USA hosted by non other than . . . you guessed it, our AC genius Todd Harris.
"Tag along as WOAS takes an exclusive inside look at the design and construction of the epic 72-foot catamaran the team will be charging into battle with at the 34th Americas Cup in September 2013. Remarkable feats of engineering and copious amounts of training aren't all that it takes to make an America's Cup champion. It also takes heart and perseverance which, luckily, Oracle Team USA has in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1212:43 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by erice
apparently all ok
wing and platform
not so good
more and more both are looking unrepairable
2nd boat can't be launched until feb2013
looks like they shouldn't have dumped the original requirement for a big and small wing
I understand the wing being beyond repair, but the platform too?
I have not seen how the righted it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how te platform got damaged badly. They also said it was badly damamged from foiling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1202:43 PM
It made it back to the dock turtled,never was righted, so it's a safe bet the wing is a complete loss. I was at least hoping they could save the spar. All of you have to know it was inevitable. You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1203:00 PM
I can't imagine what it feels like to go from sitting on the aft part of the boat then rise to 40-50'(est) while the transoms are lifting in the air ...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1204:03 PM
Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.
I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1204:33 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.
I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?
Once you ditch the wing you're not righting that platform without a bigass crane. The wing filling with water was what most likely kept them from righting in the first place. There were not many ways to do it different and accomplish anything. Faster righting before the wing filled is about it, and the current seemed to prevent that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1205:36 PM
Thanks for the clarification guys. Lee I'm aware of the tidal based current flows in San Fran, just surprised they didn't motor against it but given the problems Cat_Fever outlined that wouldn't have worked.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1209:27 PM
Quote
No drift Sam. There's a HUGE tide current there
Don't forget that the outgoing "tide" carrries the entire contents of the Sacramento River as well.
Once outside the Bridge you face the wrath of the entire north Pacific. The north shoal of the outer mouth of the GG is called the Potato Patch. Relativly shallow water, only 25-35 feet deep, makes a tough place to turtle a 131' mast. Huge swells can pump up waves in the 30 foot range but are themselves torn to shreds by the huge current.
Notice the condition of the AC72 right after the flip (pretty clean), then again after and hour of being pounded. I'm surprised there's anything left. Typical day in SF...7 knots westbound outgoing current, 30+ knots of wind coming in from the west, all funneled through the narrow GG. Nice place to turn downwind on a 72 foot cat. Like Butch Cassidy said, "Who are those guys?"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1203:24 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
...You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.
Sorry but multihulls pitchpole and break their riggs eversince... its just bad luck if you, me, Oracle or someone else will be the next one day ;-) Here it looks to me as if the recovery and the counteraction to not let the mast, wing go down was too slow. Maybe they had just no idea, never planned that?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1206:50 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?
Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...
And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...
Those foils must have had incredible loads on them during that event...and you would think that when those lifting boards point to the bottom that they drive harder to the bottom. I heard mention that the foil loads tore up the hulls during that dive and they didn't even know if the hulls were repairable.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1208:12 PM
Also, the main L-foils at that high negative angle of attack must have produced a lot of drag and contributed to slowing the boat, so in addition to pulling the whole boat down, they contributed to the torque loads that forced the bows down.
It will be interesting to see what design changes come out of this. I'm picturing main foils with super strong hinges so that the L-foil part swings to near vertical when top loaded, and back to horizontal under normal upward loads. I wonder if such a thing is possible with modern materials, and if the drag and weight of such a hinge would be acceptable. It would not be an angle of attack control per se, so it seems like it might be acceptable under the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1209:01 PM
We all have had the same problem at every bear away, think A mark in a good blow, many times with the same results (pitchpole).
As you turn from going upwind to downwind, you've got several additional forces all happening at once, to include the centrifical force the rig exerts as it's being swung in the big arc, the added drive from the (momentarlily, until you accelerate) greater aparant wind which is now puhsing the bows down, not lifting the windward hull up, and the added drag of going faster, on the boards which also pulls the bows down, until they get into foiling mode.
From watching that video several times, it looked like a classic bear away nose dive. As they bear away and unroll the jib, the bows go down and never really come back up...they just keep going deeper and deeper as they accelerate, until it's too deep to recover. Use full screen to see this:
On our boats, we can all run to the back, to keep the bows up when we get to A mark and we know it's coming, but they can't shift as much (relative) balast aft, as we do in that situation.
I still think it needs more volume in the bows to help prevent this nose diving. That was the cure for the early Blades, as well as some of the A cats.
You may recall years ago, when the mega cat Playstation had to have it's bows modified, enlarged, etc. The first time they took it out in big wind and waves, they also stuffed the bows and nearly pitched it right over.
The only beach cat I've felt 'safe' on in a big wind bear away was the Inter 20, and it's known for it's huge, fat bows. When I look at the design of the AC72's, I see A cat like, skinny bows. Great for keeping weight off...but not so good for preventing a picth pole.
Remember, they cannot simply 'dump the main' when it gets blowing too hard and you want to bear away, like we can. If they are going to keep going out in 25knots, they'll need bigger bows, or a much better righting system!
It looked very similar to this earlier pitchpole, on the 45' version, nearly identicle;
Now, watch this next video of the first sail of Oracle 17. Pay particular attention to what the bows are doing, they always seem to be pointing down. Near the end of the vid. at 1:50, they are just cruising back to the dock, not pushing it, not even blowing too hard, but going downwind, and the bows are looking like they want to dive.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1212:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1201:36 AM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?
Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...
And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...
They are adjustable. They can adjust the angle of attack. There is a learning curve here and they missed the setting for the conditions at hand. If you check out Sailing Anarchy ,Tide Tech shows that the conditions changed when they made that last bear away. Had they had the time or knowledge to set the foil properly they may have been alright.
They are not counting on forward buoyancy to keep the bows up. They are counting on the foils for that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1201:59 AM
Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1203:39 AM
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...
Past a certain point, you are just screwed. IF you can keep your speed up through the turn you are better off as you apparent wind will remain more forward. When the boat stuffs hard enough to go over, I don't think anything you can do will save it. Sail in, sail out, it's only going to change the angle with which the mast hits the water. Once it stuffs, the momentum and wind pressure are working against you and you have no helm. I've been out where it took three or four attempts to bear away to get through the turn. The trick was to get through the turn as fast as the foils would let you when the waves and wind are just right. The faster you can make that turn, the better off you will be. Get your speed as fast as possible, hang on, and yank it through hopefully just short of your rudders stalling.
These guys were just hugely overpowered and as they bore away, the rudders were probably stalled and about 1 second later and another second after that, there wasn't enough rudder in the water to have any influence over the direction of the boat.
That wing is ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FEET TALL!!! That's a lot of tomahawk momentum!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1206:34 AM
There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon that you could inflate to stop a mast turtling, would something like that have stopped this wing filling with water which stopped the righting?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1208:44 AM
Originally Posted by JeffS
There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon
... you can buy one. Just search for: Secumar Auto Inflation Anti-Inversion Mast Float
Somehow not very common. I've never seen a boat equipped with it. Propably because getting a beach cat out of the 100% turtle position by manpower is not so difficult, as far as the boat is not too wide like Tornado, H21, or others.
That "airbag-recovery" could work on any boat I guess.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1210:19 PM
After watching the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drgglIebuQY) I think they buried the windward bow first. Can anyone confirm my observation? If this in fact happened it is possible that someone just dialed too much angle of attack to the leeward foil or not enough AoA to the leeward one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/23/1209:11 PM
I have it on a relatively high authority that after the big wave of water rushed over the deck, there were only 2 people left on the boat for the ensuing pitchpole.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/1201:29 PM
Why would they add the vinyl?
Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?
That and it's much harder for the RC to pick out one 'over early' white hull out of a crowd of white hulls.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/28/1202:43 AM
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Film is lighter than paint and easier to fix. That is why Formula cars use it.
Unique Chrome Finish The color of the Formula 1 car was a very special wish from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes. For AkzoNobel Automotive & Aerospace Coatings, whose highest ambition is to always get color right, this request was a challenge to relish. Working closely with the McLaren paintshop team we exclusively developed the unique and spectacular looking chrome livery which millions of people see every race weekend.
“It has to provide the right impact that you are looking for through the television cam, when the car comes by with high speed. Our brand needs to stand out and to be clear. And of course, we want the other drivers to be intimidated of what’s coming behind them." Jonathan Neale, Managing Director, McLaren Racing.
“I love the car I drive. I think it’s the most beautiful car on the whole grid. The paint job is the best - I think it’s the most stunning car out there," said Lewis Hamilton during a BBC radio interview about his Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-26.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/04/1209:26 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Why would they add the vinyl?
Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?
As far as the AC and its expenses are concerned. I am sure making the sponsors happy to keep the money coming is pretty high on the priority list.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/08/1206:24 PM
So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/09/1203:20 AM
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?
Designing a boat for 80% reaching and designing a boat for refined windward leeward are two very different things.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1203:59 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .
O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1207:59 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .
O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
Obfuscation. Public released video. I wouldn't rely to heavily on what you see.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1208:08 PM
This isn't really knowledge but, apparently the 33's are test platforms and they are trying every type of foil they can think of on them. even the 72's have 2 different foils often. from the photos it looks like the curved part of the foil is mostly in the hull when in the down position. the business end is an "L". the cant of the "L" is something to play with as are the tip foils shape/angle, etc. Rudders have similar aspects to play with as well. it seems to me that an end plate on a daggerboard would help quite a bit to windward as well as become a hydro-foil off the wind. finding a happy medium between these 2 points of sail and the characteristics of the end plate would be a job, and require all sorts of testing.
there is some debate as to whether the extreme fineness ratio of the 72's may be fast enough to eliminate the need to fully foil in an upwind/downwind course with some 1-2 minute legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/23/1201:36 PM
I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/24/1212:45 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.
Agreed, the no foiling to windward seems to be the consensus. Most likely they are canting the lee board for sailing off the wind, which when combined with the wing tip or "L" gives the enough vertical lift to fully foil. Their speed may or may not increase, and their angle downwind may improve. Some speculation says both speed and angle will improve from foiling. They are limited in the number of 72 dagger boards that they are allowed to make, but they can make as many SL33 or ac 45 dagger boards as they want to help figure this new development out. Mr. Melvin is on the design team for NZ so it makes sense for them to use the 33 as a test platform. Atrtemis focused on the big wing first and don't appear to be in agreement that fully foiling is the way to go. the original mockup of the 72s showed banana boards, but i imagine that they work better on small cats that are crew weight trimmed, and big tris that have a regular board in the center hull. once they tried "L" and "T" foils they didn't look back. can you imagine flying into the leeward gate at 40 knts., having to round up and crank the daggerboard to a de-canted position? what a learning curve this contest must have. On the jibes it seems like they would set the new board before the jibe, but when 17 capsized going into their jibe they still had the 1 board up. if it had been down maybe both hulls would have been clear of the water and nosing in would not have been an issue.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/1309:50 PM
it's probably the one that broke...but I don't understand why they have pictures of dagger board molds and the like in that posting. It seems out of character.
Somebody mentioned this early on in this thread and was spot on . . .
“The amount that the platform racked (twisted) was a trade-off with weight and windage in the structure of the boat,” he explained. “That trade-off is still there. We’ve made some subtle changes that will reduce the racking, but again, it’s a design decision trading off windage and weight.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1311:34 AM
I have wondered why some of the foils haven't been shaped like the new OR foils. From my aviation days, it seems the dihedral there would create some extra stability.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1312:38 PM
Dont really understand why the helming position is so low (apart from windage), shouldnt he be able to oversee the whole boat from that position? (Especially with matchracing?).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1305:42 PM
Great interview with Grant Dalton! Enlightening indeed.
Dalton referring to Oracle 17 "It's going to go like stink upwind!"
NZ named their second AC72 - Aotearoa (Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand, meaning the land of the long white cloud, said to the the first sighting of New Zealand by the first migration.)
This is first of a series of four with Grant Dalton, Kevin Shoebridge (COO on the shorecrew), Dean Barker (Skipper on the sailing aspects) and Nick Holroyd (Design Director).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1307:35 PM
I find it interesting that their daggerboards are so far forward...I presume this enhances straight line speed at the expense of tacking speed. If so, I suppose they're not planning on any tacking duels.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1311:29 PM
This Dean Barker interview is the second in the series of four. We've already seen team boss Grant Dalton. . . . to be followed up with Kevin Shoebridge (shore boss and COO on the logistics of the AC72 campaign) and Technical Director, Nick Holroyd. Enjoy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1312:41 AM
They're that far forward to allow the boat to balance fore & aft when up on the foil. It's not directly under the CG due to the dynamic forces on the wing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1311:24 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51
The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1311:49 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51
The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.
I'm pretty sure they had two different foils in the boat. The starboard board was straight and had the inverted V-wing with the knuckle at the joint. The port board appeared to have a soft curve to the length of it and had a curved radius shaping smoothly into the horizontal foil with no knuckle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/1302:15 AM
So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?
Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/1302:33 AM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?
Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?
I don't know about water ballast - but I know they can control the fore/aft angles of the daggerboard trunks. They're aren't allowed to have movable foils/flaps that articulate under the water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/17/1302:53 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Watch at 1:41 in video. On a bear away, the platform begins to pitch and immediately the lee bow rises in attitude and the lee hull foils at a moderately low speed. Could this be the result of adjusting the angle of attack of the foil? Seems very responsive.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/25/1312:03 AM
"he has a set of button that control the shape of the wing – the camber and twist. But the difference is that those buttons trigger the hydraulics and the hydraulics are powered by somebody grinding. Every time he presses a button it spends some of the hydraulic pressure and that has to be topped up by somebody grinding."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1302:56 PM
I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.
I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1303:01 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.
I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1303:41 PM
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1304:52 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners. It's not all that different than how we show up on the beach for an event like the Tybee with sponsor decals.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1309:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1310:06 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
No way condom sales could support that Team. Sheiks. Tim you're nuts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/1312:46 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
hmmm...true. They're just less in the face of things I suppose.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/1305:23 PM
I would be really surprised if ETNZs defence will be held anywhere else than Auckland. For completely selfish reasons I hope either Artemis or LR win the cup (less travel!).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/1301:35 PM
Good read. Two part interview with Oracle's COO Grant Simmer. Some good stuff regarding the platform racking, AC development and bunch of other goodies. Fill your coffee cup . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/1302:05 PM
I wonder if they've got bladders full of helium in the hulls. I thought back when Larry won the cup on the big Tri, someone said they had some helium in the amas to lighten it up?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/1302:58 PM
Aero beams are primarily for drag reduction. They are trying to re-attach the flow aft of the tramp and keep it attached forward of the tramp. Attached flow is much less drag than fully detached flow (i.e the wake coming off a round or square beam).
Remember the prototypes on hull #1? They didn't build them there for a reason; CFD is good but modelling separated flow effectively is more of a rare art form than a science at this point. Much easier to instrument your system in a wind tunnel, i.e put tell tales all over your ribbed beam and design the solid beam from there.
Gonna be a fun summer with the AC and C-class action...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/1302:20 AM
The Wind Gods - Official Trailer
The blurb released with the trailer describes it as:
'Awe-inspiring boats that reflect the unlimited reach of human ingenuity, breathtaking views, action, tension, excitement, consummate skill, the pursuit of lifelong dreams and the tempestuous romance between sailors and the sea, set against a soaring musical score: this is The Wind God's, the story of the 33rd America's Cup race.
'In a quest to bring the oldest trophy in International Sports back to America, Oracle Corporation's Larry Ellison organizes an elite team to sail USA-17, the most technologically advanced sailboat ever built, in a challenge against the defending Swiss team Alinghi, which has held the cup for seven years.
'The film documents the effort from start to finish, with intimate portraits of the competitors, fascinating insights into the cup's history, and sweeping cinematography of the race. But more than that, The Wind Gods is a tribute to the adventurous spirit that leads men to test their limits, by challenging the elements, the sea, and fate.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1306:53 PM
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1307:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
$10 says you have to dig deep to find a catamaran reference on there (I haven't looked).
OK...I looked - I take that back. It actually looks pretty nice.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1307:15 PM
dug a little deeper...and the "detail" on catamarans is really bad. It points out nearly as many negatives as positives and glosses over the majority of catamaran sailing. There shouldn't be any "direct" negatives listed on any of these 'more detail' pages.
Quote
WHAT Multihull sailboats come in a variety of types and sizes. Catamarans have two hulls, while trimarans feature three. In general, multihulls are faster and lighter than monohulls. However, multihulls are typically slower at turning. These boats do not have a keel.
WHY Larger Catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats. They are also built for speed, which makes them great racing boats. Also, they do not capsize as easily. The stable platform or deck area improves safety and helps keep you dry. Larger catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats too. Small multihulls are typically simple, inexpensive boats. They are also easy to launch from the beach.
So, let's see the negatives listed for small (non cruising): slower at turning, do not have a keel, unstable and capsize easily (listed as an anti-negative for a 'big one'), wet (anti-negative again), and some might say "simple" is a negative if not just a mischaracterization written by someone that has clearly never set foot on a small multihull.
Is that the two most exciting pictures they could find of multihull sailing? What is up with choosing that top one - it looks like a trainwreck just happened and the second one (while cute) doesn't show any excitement. Compare that to the others while you're on there too.
compare that to the "small boat sailing" and you'll wonder why anyone sails catamarans at all (besides large cruisers).
Quote
WHAT Small boat sailing is a simple, inexpensive way to get started in the sport. The fundamental basics of sailing are most easily learned in small boats. Many small boats are designed specifically for youth, and most provide a lifetime of enjoyment for adults as well. Because of their size and simplicity, many small sailboats can be sailed single handed or with a single crew member. Small boat performance, depending on the design, may range from stable and relaxing to wet and wild.
WHY Small boat sailing can bring you relaxing days on the water, adventurous family fun or challenging competition. By learning to sail a small boat with a US Sailing certified instructor, you’ll learn the skills you need to build your confidence and sail the boat effectively and safely. If you become a boat owner, small boats are affordable and easy to transport (car-top or trailer) and to store. They are simple to rig, allowing you to get on the water faster, and enjoy more time sailing.
let's see...negatives for 'small boats'? errrr....none.
Come to think of it, what is up with the line clearly drawn between Multihull, small boats, and large boats? Can a multihull not also be a small boat and a large boat? Why isn't it "small boat; dingy and multihull", "Large boat; monohull and multihull" or something. This is dumb. Not any of the other descriptions for the other "types" of sailing means lists any negatives but the multihull version is full of them.
Crap like this makes me glad I choose not to renew my US Sailing membership for the first time in a long time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1303:28 AM
OK....clearly I'm the only one that sees the issues with the way the Multihulls are presented there - but I promise we got about 1/10 the marketing of any other "boat type" on there. It really is a marketing faux pas to point out so many negatives for something you are trying to "promote". Who proof read that and thought it was OK?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1307:20 AM
The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better. Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1312:27 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better. Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?
Lame, yes...negative? no. There is no contact on that site anywhere. I've sent a message to info@ussailing.org
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/08/1302:24 PM
they wrote me back with assurance that they aren't intentionally favoring any type of boat and that they will review it and be consulting their multihull constituents. Apparently, they looked up my membership status.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/1309:03 PM
quoting Sail World "Video shown on a local TV Channel shows the boat completely upside down, and with the wingsail smashed, in a similar outcome to that which occurred on the October 6, 2012 incident with Oracle Team USA."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/1309:14 PM
Coast Guard Lt. Jeannie Crump says the Artemis Racing catamaran carrying a Swedish flag capsized just after 1 p.m. Thursday (UST) near Treasure Island, the former naval station located in the bay.
All 12 people on board have been accounted for.
Crump says the injured crew member was taken to a nearby yacht club and would be moved to the hospital. She didn't know the extent of the person's injuries.
The 11 other people on board were transferred to a support boat operated by Oracle Racing, which is defending its America's Cup title from last year in San Francisco this summer.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1312:02 PM
A report in Wired.com said:
Preliminary reports indicate Artemis’s boat didn’t capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin 'beams' — the two girders that lash the two narrow hulls together. The boat had been in and out of the shed numerous times in an attempt to correct those problems. Today, however, the forward beam — the girder in front of the sail — gave way during a practice run. The two hulls, no longer connected, began sailing in slightly different directions. This caused one hull to snap just forward of the aft beam, and the mast, held up by high-tension rigging connected to the front of the hulls, simply fell over. The boat began to cartwheel, ultimately trapping Simpson underneath and drowning him.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1312:06 PM
I wonder if there's any video of the actual pitch pole. From the article, Andrew was the tactician, which I guess would mean he would be at the back of the boat, probably wearing some type of tether or harness. If the boat went deep bows down, he'd be wayyy up in the air, either tossed from up high with the boat landing on him, or tied to the wrong side of the boat as it went upside down.
And as mentioned, he may have been unconscious when he went into the water. I guess we'll hear from the survivors as to what happened to Andrew, eventually.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1301:50 PM
horrible that this would have happened, but I guess with all this new stuff (technologies, materials, design) a catastrophic breakdown was bound to happen at some point.
Heck, even a "regular" capsize would put one hull almost 4 stories in the air. A fall from that (even on water) would likely cause serious injury.
Let's add about 40 knots of boatspeed to that equation and I shudder to think what "could" happen.
I recall something about "Drum of England" having a keel fall off and causing some injuries, and I'm sure I could bring up all kinds of fatalities due to boat breakdowns (mono and multi) if I searched, but it's still sad to read of tragedies like this..
What would really add insult to injury is if no recommendations are made to improve safety based on their investigation
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1303:13 PM
After the Oracle capsize all the teams worked together to address and improve a multi-level safety and recovery protocol. You would guess it would address helmets, portable compressed air, chase boats with doctors, etc. But, I have yet to find a picture or video of the Artemis guys wearing spare air. Many pictures and video of the team in April where there is no spare air visible here, , here, here and here.
Very obvious that Oracle is wearing them. Does anybody know for sure if Artemis was wearing spare air or any type of portable air system yesterday?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/1306:30 PM
"I hope like hell that whoever survives this thing and wins it changes the boat class to anything safer than these God-forsaken death traps."
So the unidentified sailor is willing to risk his life to be a boat whore, and then whine about it.All about the money. Maybe Darwin should cash the check on this douche. Yep, it's dangerous ,and YOU CHOSE to do it, nobody forced you. No wonder you want to be anonymous. I "hope like hell" that person isn't anybody I ever had any respect for.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/1306:46 PM
I am pretty disappointed but not surprised by the reaction to all of this. I guess it's impossible to consider thy the crew on these boats has a choice, most of them I have seen on videos seemed pretty thrilled to be on the 72s. All athletes take a risk of some kind, you are the only one responsible for deciding when to call it quits.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/1301:37 PM
Is this general opinion of the AC72 in similar fashion to the opinion of Open 70s when they all got destroyed, or all the canting keel boats which keep breaking?
Are we supposed to hate all cutting edge innovation because it's not "bomb proof"?
" . . . In the week previous people were bidding in excess of $20,000 for a ride in an AC72 . . ." "This correspondent sailed at speeds of 43 knots on Emirates Team NZ's AC72 in 25kts of breeze, for around three hours"
" . . . only option was to take shelter behind an island as wait for the wind to abate, or take a risky sail ride downwind– which they did . . . "
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.
My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.
My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.
Yep, and SA just added a blurb about it on their homepage.
Meanwhile, other international media outlets not mentioned here are continuing to report the original quote as I type this.
I imagine we will hear some official statements tomorrow after Tuesday's planned events.
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1310:18 AM
Basically all that is keeping these boats from collapsing is a few wires pulling the whole thing together. What would happen on a beachcat when the dolphin-stiker breaks? Probably something very similar? (frontbeam collapse).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1311:59 AM
I've seen it happen on a Hobie 21. Dolphin striker fail at the center connection. Front cross bar folded. Ripped the rear cross bar out of the hull. Mast went over. Damaged hull filled with water. Even with a power boat is was a minor nightmare getting the boat(pieces) back to the beach. See any similarities?
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Mike
Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Mike
Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.
Agreed,
With half of the crowd convinced that this is all his fault, I don't think there was anything he could have said.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1312:45 PM
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1312:47 PM
Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing. It might actually be inappropriate if he did. Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1301:08 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mike
Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??
None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.
This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?
They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1302:22 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mike
Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??
None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.
This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?
They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.
Actually, their team did have a somber statement on their website almost immediately. Their owner has never really been in the forefront of the public image of the team.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:12 PM
Originally Posted by catman
The pioneers always take the arrows.
The only thing LE and RC are guilty of is trying to take sailing to the next level. I thank them.
Some are clamoring for all the evidence to be released. Keep in mind there's a active police investigation ongoing.
I doubt very much you'll see or hear anything until that's complete.
I suspect that, although it appears unrelated at this point, we may see a recommendation lowering of the maximum wind range come out of the committee's findings. Just a gut feel.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:41 PM
Perhaps they will.
However boats can always fail in one way or another causing death regardless of wind speed. Imagine one boat foiling t-boning a boat not foil borne.
Having a guy trapped underwater alive and not having the ability to find and free him in a time frame to prevent drowning or further peril is something they have to address.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing. It might actually be inappropriate if he did. Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1302:24 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's. Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . . Grinding Stations
with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1302:40 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's. Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . . Grinding Stations
with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?
Did you see the foot buttons for switching gears on the NZ and LR boats. Cool. My understanding is the grinding stations do nothing more than pump up/maintain the hydraulic reserve.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1308:49 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
That would make sense.
I think they need some bicycle mounted pumps!
yes, especially if those grinding stations don't have to reverse the direction of rotation to switch gears (I think the first few generations did switch direction to change gears like a standard winch) - which would make the bicycle style inefficient (I don't think I can pedal backwards nearly as effectively)
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1309:37 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1310:29 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1311:23 PM
Pedal powered sailing tools are nothing new. Here's a photo of an on-deck blender.
The latest human powered airplanes (and blenders) are using a rowing machine style of human power, giving up on the bicycle style. Something about using only the big muscle groups.
If they got really strong at that technique a grinder/rower wouldn't ever run across the tramp, they'd simply take the whole width in single power jump, like a frog. Just don't overshoot.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1302:43 PM
I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1305:03 PM
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1305:25 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1307:17 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
Russell Coutts tried - and he was told to get stuffed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1308:02 PM
Is it me, or has the AC always been a boat race between uber-wealthy narcissists? That's what makes it so entertaining
Would you rather watch "Lifestyles of the lower middle class & nominally known" on television? I think not.
Having Robin Leech ride in my half-destroyed car with his camera crew would be a little un-nerving, but he could help keep that window from leaking while he's there...
Suspending racing for a short while until people can determine if there is something inherently wrong with ALL the boats sounds reasonable. But if it turns out one team or boat was cutting the margin too thin, then the rest of the teams shouldn't be penalized
I've recovered a few bodies of offshore power boat racers in my earlier days (dive rescue), but I don't recall the industry cancelling the entire fleet/division/calendar because of one (or a few) accidents.
I'm sure that some of the accidents may have actually been the result of design deficiencies, too...
I recall diving on one boat (maybe a 60 foot tri) that stuffed hard in a wave while rounding a mark and killed the throttle hand (traumatic asphyxia from what we figured - our response was literally 30 seconds from when the boat crashed to our getting hands on him, but CPR attempts were unsuccessful). The boat literally disintegrated below us (our safety team was following in a small helicopter at about 100' asl). The driver denied being hurt, but we got him packaged (backboard/CS collar) on the rescue boat and later found out he had a C-6 fracture.
While tragic for all involved, the general racing community believed it was one of the inherent perils of the "game" and soldiered on. I would hope to see the same out of the AC
Even back in the early AC events, the danger of injury or worse was always present. A parted sheet or blown block could easily maime or kill a sailor. Collisions between boats have and will break bones or worse.
Booms swinging can knock sailors overboard unconscious, and until recently I don't recall any of them wearing PFDs while training or competing.
Learn all we can from this incident, apply those lessons to protect life and property, and let's develop the sport and its associated technologies in a safe and effective manner.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1308:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.
I think that was tried but NZ killed the idea, I think it was proposed after the OR crash.
It might have made a much better event, I imagine it would have been much more affordable with more teams jumping in. Probably more teams doing the series as well.
On the other hand it would have have been quite the same as the big badass 72s either. It's not the AC without the wealthiest teams competing with the biggest and baddest boats.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1301:43 AM
Originally Posted by pgp
I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.
Patrizio Bertelli: No. Look, this thing about airbags is a stupidity.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1310:52 AM
The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.
Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a high tech development race.
Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.
30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.
I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.
I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1311:37 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.
Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a a high tech development race.
Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.
30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.
I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.
I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.
Actually watching the after race interviews with Ted Turner and Tom Blackaller were awesome.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1311:54 AM
Yeah, Ted was a hoot, but the actual racing, at 7kts or less in light air, was pretty boring. Once one boat got ahead, it was pretty much game over. Not that the last one, with the big cat vs. big tri was any different in that regard, and even with two foiling AC72's it might end up being just a drag race, ie. first boat across the start line won't be caught, unless it breaks, which looks entirely possible at this point!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1312:27 PM
Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?
And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1307:10 PM
Originally Posted by pgp
Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?
And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.
They were talking about mast head air bags...which is silly because they break apart shortly after capsizing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/19/1303:16 PM
"The Artemis team has yet to indicate its clear intention to continue. The boat that broke up cannot be sailed and its repair may be hampered if reports are true that the second boat, the one it intended to campaign in, was damaged in transit from Sweden and will require repairs."
Really? You have to wonder about the leadership of this group.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1301:25 AM
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:14 PM
Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:36 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.
I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:44 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.
Sort of like flying the spin with no mainsheet tension?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1301:35 PM
Ours at school would overheat idling on the ground if you were not careful. That was also turning a prop pushing a tremendous amount of air over it. Those are also prone to hydro locking from oil draining into the lower cylinders, I don't see anyway to turn it over by hand.
What would really be bad butt is a rotary radial, pretty flipping dangerous for that application.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1307:06 PM
The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride. Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.
I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1308:11 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride. Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.
I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.
I'm not sure about that - it's just the crank/cam that is spinning - the pistons are still just going up and down in the cylinder sleeves.
But...here's probably a better idea from that perspective (the cooling issue gets worse). You probably also want to put some tape or velcro around your left pant leg.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1310:19 PM
Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...
Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1302:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...
Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.
Mike
Mike, We're just a couple out of thousands of a-holes with an opinion. It really doesn't matter what you or I think. I don't have anything invested in it other than a t-shirt and the time I spend viewing. Enjoy commenting here once and a while but certainly not going to argue about it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1306:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
On a side note, US Sailing updated the multihull detail on www.startsailing.org (presumably from my email). They removed the negative stuff, added a little, and now it doesn't make much sense (cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach?)...whatever
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1306:28 PM
cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach...
I bet MOST of the world will understand that because they have seen the glossy bare boat advertisments of a cruising mulit tied up to a tree on some island resort beach...
Of course it is beach launched... You walk off the beach and launch your Gunboat.... QED!
Some interesting stuff in there. Capsize, and it's officially game over...
Like you could recover a 72, and start racing in hopes of the other guy flipping? These aren't Hobie 16s... I'm pretty sure that no one sailing these is thinking about the race while the boat is on its side, and it's not like the other boat is going to be able to offer more help than the RIBs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1304:25 AM
Do I read correctly in the new rules that they are limited to two soft sails so the wing is dead. If so how long to build a mast and sail and get back on the water?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1305:18 PM
If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1306:51 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...
Mike
You win! FYI B.O.S.= Balls of Steel . . . and he's got 'em.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/1304:18 PM
Just watched this on the big screen in 1080p. Check it out. (mark :30 to 1:05) Amazing cinematography, incredible image stabilization, and all from a chase boat. Anybody know why the white helmet? At one point Newton is wearing it, then you see Falcone wearing it. Does the orange colored jersey designate anything?
Bucket list: 1) experience space travel 2) a ride on this beauty
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1312:33 PM
Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once "the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1301:23 PM
busy guy
Originally Posted by mummp
Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once "the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1303:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Undecided
I meant the team - I guess specifically - Dalton.
Love them or hate them, you can't deny that their program is very impressive for such a small country.
Oracle will have to really get things together to be able to beat them, 2nd boat isn't as smooth as I hoped it would be.
Latest video from the kiwis:
I think it's way too early to start the who's ahead and who's behind stuff. First the Kiwis have to win the LV. I wouldn't take the Italians lightly. The latest videos I've seen shows US17 doing just fine. Like AC 33, we will learn much when the horn sounds.
CORRECTION. This will NOT be broadcast today on 60 minutes but on the series "60 Minutes Sports", this Wednesday, June 5 at 9 p.m. on SHOWTIME. Showtime schedule here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/04/1309:41 PM
The Artemis Racing team, with Nathan Outteridge at the helm, has returned to practice on San Francisco Bay.
The team took to the water in its AC45 catamaran early in the afternoon on Tuesday. "A good day to get back out on San Francisco Bay in our foiling AC45," the team tweeted.
Artemis Racing hadn't sailed in nearly a month, following a May 9th training accident in the first of its two AC72 catamarans
Bundy's quote: Everyone is grinding, the boat is so physical and because everything is happening so fast as well, everyone just clicks in and grinds it in. Nobody is really just dedicated to one role. All the grinders can switch into everyone's winch so they can switch back and forth. So for a hoist or something they can all just click in and grind.Source and good read!
Artemis' Cayard: “We have 38 hydraulic cylinders. We want to avoid running hydraulic piping to each of them, because that would be heavy, so we have electrovalves embedded in the wing to actuate the hydraulics. But if you had two wires, positive and negative, running to each electrovalve, your wing would look like a PG&E substation, and that’s heavy too, so we use a CAN-bus [controlled area network] with far fewer wires. Still, it’s incredibly complex.
“We wind up with lot of hydraulics,” Cayard says, “and the America’s Cup rules don’t allow stored power, so two of our eleven guys—we think, two—will be grinding a primary winch all the race long. Not to trim, but to maintain pressure in the hydraulic tank so that any time someone wants to open a hydraulic valve to trim the wing, there will be pressure to make that happen.”
ETNZ's Rod Davis: "There are eight grinding pedestals, 30 buttons to change linkage to drive different winches (twice as many as the old boats because you have two hulls to sail from), 190kg boards to go up and down, hydraulics that make an big jet aircraft look like a kids toy - and the boat is 46ft wide"
"The 37 safety recommendations involve Protocol changes, Class Rule changes (the design parameters for the boats), and Racing Rules of Sailing changes (how the races will be conducted). The Regatta Director had received verbal commitment to the safety recommendations, however, when he asked for teams to sign off on each of the changes in writing, a couple of the teams refused."
"Working together to run a safe event, GGYC, ACEA and America’s Cup Race Management (ACRM) submitted the Marine Permit Application with all 37 safety recommendations attached. Assuming the permit is issued, the Competitors will be required to comply with the safety recommendations because they will have become regulations of the event – Art. 16."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/1308:23 PM
My guess is that the sailors will buy into the new program without the smelly litigations. How the corporations react to them may become a worthy note, but if the OA and the sailors vote them in by practice, 'nuf said. :-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/1309:54 PM
Bert, I somewhat agree with you. These platforms were designed and optimized from scratch for the prescribed wind range. To change that at the 12th hour is the problem, and unfortunate due to the Artemis Simpson tragedy. All the teams are just jockeying for their ideal wind speed. But who really knows if the CG said guys if you want your permit, you need to drop the upper wind limit. Hum.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/1311:24 AM
"What this means is that contrary to what Barclay is telling the teams and the world, they had better agree during the mediation or there is not going to be an AC34.
Apparently, somebody is running around claiming that section 16 of the Protocol, which requires compliance with governmental laws and regulations, gives the IJ the power to alter the Protocol and Rules on the basis of safety. That is a laugher. It does not pass the straight face test."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/1302:47 PM
I think both Oracle and ETNZ are holding back. Neither team wants to disclose how fast they really can go. I watched a lot of dial up maneuvers yesterday. Both teams were doing drills where they parked, turned down, and either hooked up or pealed away into a gybe and run. Lots of typical match race per-start drills.
Next week we will see both Oracle a boats on the bay training against each other. Lots of action on the with Oracle 1 & 2, ETNZ, Luna Rossi, and the Artemis AC45 all on the same body of water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/23/1305:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Funny, its the exact same gybe just from a slightly different angle from than the one Mike shot.
Indeed it is. There are a couple more foiling gybes in the 20 minute video that the same author posted a couple weeks ago. Rule 47.3 will apply during the gybes and they look like they are well within the time limit. ETNZ has improved from 17 seconds to 11 seconds regarding the boards. Oracle looks like they're still working to perfect the foiling gybe. Could be a game changer if the racing is tight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdPZWgN0Qc
Battling with the press, particularly at an individual level, is probably not in the best interest of the America's Cup organizers. They don't control the outflow of information...they're better off releasing generic non-pointing press releases making clarifications and staying out of the mud. Gladwell usually has his stuff together too and going toe to toe with him probably isn't going to accomplish much. Strange behavior.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1304:16 PM
Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1304:35 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Mike
It's not that simple - the Oracle boats have lower aerodynamic profiles than ETNZ, which has more volume up front to counteract pitching.
Allowing rudder elevators would give a significant advantage to Oracle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1305:50 PM
Rudder elevators, wings, tips, whatever your cultural area calls them are becoming "the new performance stimulator" across the board. From A Cats to AC 72s there is evidence and growing faith that lifting foils add stabilization.
The rudder elevators, do, in fact, reward good driving and sailhandling! This makes it arguable as a safety feature in the light of two other AC teams supporting Emirates since have made hull modifications which they claim make the boat safer.
Now the sailing jury will decide which is the modern path to safety - high performance control (Oracle) or the 20th century approach by the whiners (Others sans elevators).
Could this be a ploy for "more time to train?" The move certainly adds drama for the audience. Let us hope that safety through modern design and athletic performance prevails over the traditional 'displacement (adding weight) approach' for safety. The Jury is out... postpone racing for higher speeds and thrills in lighter air??? But, Oracle may have stepped outside the lifelines for the sake of modernism a titch too late...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1306:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.
I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1307:25 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.
I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.
I agree with that. Added to the situation is that Oracle has been using them for several months as training wheels so they have additional time learning to use them and possibly refining them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1307:55 PM
That's the key to all this. The rules clearly state how they can be changed, unanimous vote by all competitors. Why would ETNZ let Oracle modify the rules this late in the game? It's a ploy by Oracle, it's disgusting, and really mars the whole AC. Oh wait it's the AC and they'd rather be in court than on the water.
Call me when the full flying AC45's become the standard and they have 20 teams on the water. Till then I'll be watching the C-class and going sailing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1308:58 PM
In context may I add this related to the Texel Race from Steve Green (BAMA)... Texel.NDL (G.Ruesink, Nico Boon et al) and SCHRS.EU (Sunnuncks, Newhirst) w/SCHRS.US (Schneider) confirmed no 2013 rating adjustments for T-Foil Rudders (see Nacra F-20 Carbon S-Foils w/L and T-Rudder SkyDrive.LINK). Maybe next year.
Team Oracle has gained some knowledge of exacting the angle of attack for the theory by practicing with the adjustable elevators. Now, in beach cat terms...
My guess is the NACA on the A Cat foils was 4 - 6%. The angle of rake/attack was not mentioned in the discussion. Innovation and safety go hand in hand.
Allowing the daggerboard rudder in production trimaran racing was hinged by the safety element. Watch out for the Farrier 22 - If you see it, you'll likely want to sail it!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1312:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Kiwis, always trying to bend the rules.
But it isn't the Kiwis (unless you mean the ones employed by Team Oracle) who are bending the rules this time. The regatta director (Iain Murray) is altering the class rules at the behest of the cup defender (Golden Gate Yacht Club) - using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to shoehorn the changes in after the legitimate rule change process failed.
Allowing adjustable rudder elevators will not improve safety for the Louis Vuitton Cup - as the challenging teams do not have them. Allowing them for the America's Cup but not permitting adjustment while racing will not improve safety. The whole safety argument revolves around trimming the elevators during a bear-away (to keep the bows up). Rudder elevator adjustment is really a performance enhancement (between races to trim for wind conditions and while racing to initiate foiling).
To me, it looks like the defender (GGYC/Oracle) is attempting to stack the deck in it's favor. ETNZ has shown up with a more buoyant, more stable, and more seaworthy design, so Oracle is slipping in an 11th hour game change.
I hope the Jury rules in ETNZ's favor. I've been rooting for the home team so far, but I'd rather see them lose than win this way.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1301:07 PM
I could see them as being a safety measure to keep the boats from pitch poling with the different wind speeds. If they can't change them while racing what is the big deal. Could they just have a different rudder for different wind speeds and change between races. I think it was smart for Oracle to test with adjustable winglets so they could find the best balance for conditions. The other teams may have and had the same opportunity to test with adjustable winglets. Two boats have pitch poled and flipped so far and one sailor has died if changing the winglet angle before the race helps I would be fore it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1303:26 PM
I agree that Oracle was smart to test with adjustable rudder elevators. Those rudders are not, however, class-legal to race with. Once Oracle picks the best compromise attack angle, they have to stick with it (make fixed elevators). Doing an end-around on the class rules via the Coast Guard permit does not make racing safer for anybody except (possibly) Oracle, and it gives Oracle a performance advantage.
ETNZ made a stability/speed tradeoff when they designed their hulls with greater bow buoyancy. They sacrificed some upwind performance to prevent pitchpoling on the turndown. Oracle opted for a finer hull profile with better theoretical upwind speed at the expense of stability. Had adjustable rudder elevators been legal from the outset, ETNZ may have made a different design choice. Giving Oracle an exemption from the class rules under the guise of safety is unfair to the challengers - especially since the change comes less than two weeks before the LV Cup begins.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/30/1310:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
IMHO it's just a big wind-up by Oracle and ultimately they won't care what the jury decides.
+1, The pic of LE,RC,JS,Tug Boat Turner looking at the rudder is a joke. They are just stirring the pot. I can't believe anyone thinks that OR doesn't have all the bases covered. Anything can happen but they won't lose because the boat isn't up to the task...... I hope:)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/1305:15 PM
Yuck...
If there's one constant in the Cup's history, especially over the past 30 years; it's change. Sure would be nice if the people involved would embrace that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:00 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Excellent read regarding the CG Permit and Regatta Director Iain Murray by legal analyst Cory E. Friedman here.
I've always enjoyed Freeman's perspective on Cup related details. If his suggestion that Oracle has yet demonstrated the ability to foil without adjustable rudder tabs, this is a pretty transparent attempt to cheat and skew the event in their favor. It stinks. I'll be interested to see this play out but if it turns out to be as rotten as it smells right now, I agree with Dave...start packing up the cup, we don't deserve it.
He also brings out Peyron's comments in that article linked before. After reading that again, I think it's is at least not clear what happened in that accident regarding pitchpole vs. boat breaking up. Peyron seems to say that they started to pitchpole and then the boat broke...was the pitchpole recoverable at the time?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:17 PM
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:28 PM
Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
I haven't read it - but I understood that the rule previously prohibited adjustable tabs on the rudders. All foils had to be fixed below the water and non adjustable. You could adjust rake of the foil to modify the lift (perhaps this is what had to be fixed on the rudder at a set time prior to racing) but you couldn't have an articulated widget below the surface.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1306:59 PM
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire daggerboard in the well)?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:20 PM
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.
The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.
Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.
Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:58 PM
Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
That is the way I understand the rule and don't get what the big deal is. The winglets can not be adjusted while racing only before the warning signal to adjust for the wind strength since the wind builds during the day. The only advantage to Oracle is they have been training with adjustable winglets to find out the best angle for conditions which the other teams could have been doing, but seem to have just chosen to have a one angle for all conditions. I guess Oracle could set there winglets for light conditions and have an advantage if the winds stayed light , but could be at a disadvantage if the winds picked up. The teams could have put different rudders on each day before and just guess which would be best for conditions for that day.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:59 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.
The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.
Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.
Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.
I think the initial intent was to disallow foiling...or make it so difficult that it wouldn't be practical. The problem entered when someone figured out how to do it within the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:23 PM
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:45 PM
Originally Posted by Redtwin
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire dagger board in the well)?
-Rob Vaden
The rules forbid the any movement of the rudder post.
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same. One of the rule changes allow the T to extend outside the max beam of the boat. This is thought benefit OR because this will allow OR to increase the size of the foil to make the boat more stable when foiling. NZ says this would be more dangerous because if someone fell off like Spithill did they could be hit by the foil. I believe Race Management back tracked on this rule. The word is OR has not sailed with T foils that extend past max beam. Another item is RM wants design and load testing data of rudder T foils on asymmetrical equipped boats only.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:00 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Which takes the argument back to "outside the max beam" and away from adjustable foils. The 12th hour safety rule calling for a change to symmetrical rudder foils is utterly absurd and does absolutely nothing to enhance safety.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:08 PM
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:58 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here. ... I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...
I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1311:14 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.
I'm not sure about that...I don't know that they haven't caught the multihull bug (I hope so anyway).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:43 AM
Originally Posted by bacho
Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?
That's what it said.
Not surprising, actually. On a tour I took at the Oracle base last year, the guide was discussing how, when the boats get going fast enough, they're always sailing upwind due to the effect of boatspeed on the apparent wind angle. In many ways, foiling is at least as much of a game changer as an additional hull or two...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:51 AM
Another reason not to carry a gennaker is that it's virtually impossible to pull off a foiling jibe with one.
The gennaker has to be partially furled, jibed, then unfurled. The extra speed/time gained when you're up on the foils is more than offset by the time spent off the foils in the jibe.
At least one team (ETNZ) has a self-tacking jib - which may partially explain why they were the first to achieve a fully-foiling jibe.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:36 PM
huh. So it seems that the reasoning behind the "symmetrical rudder is safer" is to avoid failures of the 90 degree rudder to foil joint. I can see how this would cause a major problem if this broken during a big bear away (who knows, it may have let go during Oracle's big capsize or Alingi's) and I think it adds a little merit to the point for using them.
However, I feel like I should point out that all of them are using asymmetrical dagger boards that should be seeing considerably more loading than the rudders...soo....uhhhh.errrr
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of? Do they have a boat? Or did some Durham-based African Americans who haven't set foot on a boat decide they needed a piece of the $100 million???
That video from Oracle certainly clears a few things up for me and makes it a little less like cheating. I had assumed the elevator attached to the rudder was movable ala Moth. Adjusting the entire rudder rake+elevator still sounds fairly illegal but their setup really seems optimized for quick testing and not necessarily speed gains while racing.
I really hope whoever wins sees the light and brings foiling AC45's to the action.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1302:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
I agree, and from what little experience I have hitting things with my face (thanks Karl), getting sliced up by a winglet at 40 knots does not sound pleasant in the least bit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1302:05 PM
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?
I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?
I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1305:40 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1308:08 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.
Why bother? He said their most recent symmetrical rudder wing is compliant.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1310:18 PM
I'm sure very, very few people ever imagined a winged keel (AUS in Newport), let alone foiling a 72-foot boat of any kind, let alone a cat in the America's Cup. Makes you wonder what kind of innovations are in store over the next 30 years...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/1310:27 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mbounds
Now this just impresses the hell out of me. That's some serious laminate engineering.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that testing the load in the wrong direction?
No. The rudders pull the stern down to give the daggerboards an increased angle of attack so the boards will generate more lift. They also pull down in the most extreme case when the bows start getting pushed down.
Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/1310:55 AM
That is interesting, in my view each one of these teams would do whatever they could to gain an advantage. In this case OR happens to get the bad press.
In my motorsports past, many would say that rules were created to be bent. They would also say that if you were not bending the rules as much as possible, you weren't winning.
Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.
Here's the only thing I think anyone can believe at this point:
The jury will have the last word. Until someone takes it to court.
The more things change...
Even if there is no intentional foul play on any side (which is actually conceivable), the differences of opinion, fueled by the egos and wealth at this level, put the playground dispute on a different plane.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1301:01 PM
The following two paragraphs are quoted from an "America's Cup on SFGate" article by Tom FitzGerald:
Murray, who is employed by all the teams, acting in a partnership, insisted he isn’t going to resign. “I don’t like to leave things unfinished,”
If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.
Clearly, we're not being told the whole story. Something is driving Iain Murray to act irrationally. One moment, he insists he's acting fairly to benefit all the competitors. Another he threatens to shut the whole event down if he doesn't get his way.
Apparently, Murray is utterly convinced that larger rudder elevators with adjustable rake are necessary safety features required for an AC72 to sail. Yet, he has also said (regarding Luna Rossa's threat not to race) "It's been indicated to them that the boats are in measurement trim, are ready to race and can race". How is it possible for the boats to be both measured-in and also unsafe?
Max Sirena has taken a not-unreasonable position, saying he wants to know what the rules will be before he starts racing. After all, how can you compete if you don't know whether or not the boats are legal?
Murray has responded with personal attacks on the teams, disavowal of responsibility, and more rule change proposals, as shown in the following four quotes:
"Now, however," he said, New Zealand and Luna Rossa “want to cherry-pick the parts that don’t suit them out of it.” (also many diatribes against Grant Dalton that I haven't quoted)
"The jury are part of the International Sailing Federation, not the America's Cup," Murray said. "They make their own rules and they make their own schedule. (This is clearly untrue - The America's Cup is not run under the Racing Rules of Sailing and is not under ISAF's control in any way. The AC Jury is employed by the Americas Cup organizer, just like Murray).
"It's been suggested that I direct a lot of people," Murray said today. "But I can be clear, that I don't direct anyone." (If the Regatta Director doesn't direct anyone, what does he do?)
Murray said that under the current rules a team must complete the course to get their point, but hinted that their had been discussions with the teams about changing that rule. (How can one fix a disagreement about changing rules by changing rules?)
I think I understand how larger elevators and deeper rudders might help a boat recover from a foiling nosedive. To that extent I agree that they are an important factor in boat architecture. That tradeoff, however, is the responsibility of the individual design teams, not the Regatta Director. Iain Murray has taken a giant leap of hubris by insisting that he must step in to correct the competitors' designs.
And finally, something is fishy with Team Oracle's behavior. They might not be directly influencing Murray's actions, but Coutts and Spithill sure are lining right up behind Murray - including making misleading statements about safety vs. performance and issuing personal attacks on the other competitors.
"Here we have some of the wealthiest people on Earth, yet for all of their fortunes and alleged smarts, they can't get their act together any better than us nonwealthy schlubs trying to organize an RV family vacation to Pismo Beach."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1307:05 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here. ... I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...
I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.
Sadly, Eric
I'm bringing 8 people who have never sailed a day in the lives to the AC finals. Friends and family who I've been peppering with youtube videos of insane machines that fly over the water on curtains of fine mist.
My current crewmember is a friend who got hooked on the sport when he ran across the ACWS in Venice. Thats a direct benefit of the Americas Cup to the sport of sailing.
Take it back to slow, boring, unexciting monohulls and you lose the people that are getting into the sport because of the spectacle.
Furthermore, I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1311:27 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.
Ok, I'll backpedal here. "Cheating" was too harsh a word. I don't accuse Oracle of cheating, but I used the term to oppose the notion that Oracle would be right to win "by hook or by crook". The ends don't justify the means.
Of all the video interviews I've seen, I'm most impressed with Tom Slingsby's. He didn't pedal any PR story; he didn't badmouth any other teams - he just said (in paraphrase) 'here is our current elevator, here is a big one for the proposed rule change, and here is an asymmetric one. We'll use whatever elevators the jury decides'. Tom showed real class in that video.
John Kostecki, when asked about the adjustable rudder rake, explained how the system worked, but sidestepped a reply to the question of whether it was a performance or safety control. At least he had the grace not to pitch the corporate line.
I have the utmost admiration for Jimmy Spithill's talent, but I'm disappointed with his assertion that adjusting rudder rake between races is "definitely needed for safety". Clearly, it isn't. Oracle could set the rake on shore for the highest expected wind speed that day and be every bit as safe. The boat just wouldn't be quite as fast early on when the winds are lighter. Therefore, it's a performance control. Jimmy is selling the PR story.
Again, I have great respect for Russell Coutts' ability, but am saddened by his descent into name-calling. It doesn't help his team nor the sport to make personal attacks on the other teams.
Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray. Certainly they have supported his claims and his actions - despite how outlandish his statements have become. That makes me distrust Oracle's motives, and possibly suspect their involvement. Certainly, Oracle is the principle beneficiary of Murray's subversion of the rules.
I'm going to watch the racing - most definitely - despite these antics.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1301:25 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Luna Rossa confirms they will not compete on Sunday
Where are the keys to the shed... I'll take the ****ing boat out for them if they don't want to race.
Assh0les.
Quote
Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray.
How did Iain come to be regatta director? Was he appointed by GGYC - or was he agreed upon by all the participants? I believe its the latter.
Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray? Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Oracle wants the event to happen. ETWankerZ and Spoiled Rotten Toddlers don't apparently.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1306:40 AM
I think ETNZ are on the same page as Oracle now, they will race no matter what the jury decides. For them to boycott a race could also be bad publicity for their sponsors.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1312:49 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Where are the keys to the shed...
Luna Rossa simply wants to know what the rules will be before they start racing. I don't think that's unreasonable. Consider this: if ETNZ and LR sail with their existing rudders and the Jury sides with Murray, will both teams be disqualified for equipment violations?
Quote
How did Iain come to be regatta director?
According to what Iain Murray says, all teams agreed to his appointment as Regatta Director and he is working for the benefit of every team. According to what Iain Murray does, he is certainly not acting fairly for all. When words and action disagree, believe action.
Quote
Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray?
I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1301:52 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1302:15 PM
Quote
I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them
You're forgetting Artemis here. They're in favor of the new rules as well. That seems to imply that the Challenger of Record and the defender agree on the rules changes, and the other "and also" teams seem to have big problems with it for whatever reason.
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Now, five weeks later, Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa (LR) have lodged protests...
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing.
So I ask, who is trying to force whom out of the 34th America’s Cup?
The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1304:57 PM
Everybody should find an hour of their time and listen to this entire media conference on July 3rd with Iain Murray. No questions were off limits, the questions were direct and tough, and he didn't avoid anything. It's pretty darn transparent and the listener can draw his/her own conclusion . . . Media Conference with Iain Murray
You should really listen to the whole thing to do it justice, but if you want a snippet, try 35:40 to 46:00.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1305:31 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Like Todd pointed out, Murray never states that he will ask to revoke the permit, only that the permit was not agreed upon, in which he is required to notify the CG immediately.
There is a local consensus in SF that the CG would likely be able to live with a 35 rule permit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1305:55 PM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
If they are going to race how do you watch it? Can't find anything on the TV schedule.
Maybe nothing to broadcast, might want to check into the YouTube channel at 12 noon SF local time (PST). The schedule here reports live race commentary from 12:00 to 1:15
For everyone else, the broadcast schedule is here. Choose your country.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1307:15 PM
Those ding dongs won't allow me to sling the broadcast to my TV with the YouTube app. I guess I need to get a computer hooked up to my big screen next time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1307:30 PM
Pretty riveting stuff, one boat on the course and all.
Interesting at 12:30 how much they changed the angle on the dagger before dropping it for a tack. Pretty major adjustment compared to what I have seen on some beach cats
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1310:03 PM
Top speed today: 42.8 knots. Full replay below. Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1311:58 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Here is the quote of what Mr. Murray said:
Quote
If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.
I don't know the difference between "rescinding" and "revoking" the permit, but Murray clearly states that the permit would be withdrawn. He did not give any indication whatsoever that he would try to amend the permit, or apply for a new permit with a different safety plan. I don't see any way to read the statement "there will be no regatta" other than as an "all or nothing" ultimatum. I'm not twisting what Murray said, just taking him at his word.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1312:48 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:39 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1312:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1302:52 PM
I think a lot of things are being taken out of context. There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone. Hopefully the jury gets us past this quickly so the focus can return to racing.
I'd like to see the finals be between ETNZ and Oracle USA. I think those two have the most experience on these boats and will provide the best racing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:03 PM
Philip,
This may have been said before.
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:13 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Philip,
This may have been said before.
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:49 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone.
Mike,
I agree. At this point, I don't see any likely outcome that is fair to all. I sympathize with Artemis over the quandary they're in. They went down two design paths (small and large symmetric elevators), not anticipating the possibility of a third form of the rules. A 35 of 37 point rule change could leave them SOL. ETNZ and LR also went down two design paths (small elevators, and large asymmetric elevators, neither with rake adjustment). A full 37 point rule change could leave them disadvantaged. Only Oracle developed small, large symmetric and large asymmetric elevators, with adjustable rudder rake. They will come out even or advantaged in any case. The fairest solution would be to return to the original elevators, but Iain Murray has already stated very clearly that he won't permit that to happen. I wish the jury well in finding an equitable solution within the rules and look forward to its decision.
Originally Posted by catman
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Phillip, I've been thinking the same thing. Thanks very much for keeping us all posted.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:09 PM
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:41 PM
Thanks for the gratitude guys.
Here it is again. Please go to this link and LISTEN to 37:30 35:30 through 46:00, then come back and comment. It's from the horse's mouth. How many times can the media ask the same question?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Mike
Mike, your position assumes that Murray has an ulterior motive with the rule changes. While I too once held that position based on the stream of information coming out of the two teams that lodged protests, I think it's important to note that he was put in place by all of the competitors and it's unlikely that he's being influenced by one team.
I'm starting to come of mind that Murray just honestly believes that these changes are safer and, frankly, it's hard to argue with that actually. The offset rudder lifting foil (asymmetrical is a misleading term) does lead to enormous torque loads on the vertical rudder foil and hinge system and could lead to breakage....for all we know one or both of the capsizes to date had this issue lead to the capsize. I can see how allowing the rudder foil to be centered on the rudder and extend beyond the beam of the boat can be safer.
With regards to the issue of adjusting the rudder foil, there was also a lot of bad information circulating about this early. Previous to these changes, the rudder/foil rake had to be set prior to racing for that day. We all know that every one of these boats can adjust the rake of the rudder and it's attached foil - they would be insane to try and foil without this capability or, at the very least, it would be absolutely required for testing to determine the optimum setting. We also know that the wind can change dramatically in San Fran throughout the day and one rake setting may be terribly inadequate for the day. Teams would have the choice of setting it aggressively and being slow in the light air or setting it more flat and being in danger of a pitchpole should the wind build later. The rule allows them to change it prior to starting each race and better tune it for the conditions. I also believe this is a safer scenario than allowing one setting for the day.
I've come to mind that these changes are pretty reasonable. Oracle seems to have had a jump on this because they had a lot of different rudder and foil combinations. If I were to guess, I bet their pitchpole lead to (or was caused by) rudder failure that lead them to try several different things. New Zealand is probably on par with them in this regard. I don't think any team could change and try different rudder foils without being observed since it flies above the water regularly.
The two teams with less budget / development are likely behind when it comes to foil options - Artemis admitted it with Cayard's tour/interview yesterday and ~maybe~ Luna Rossa admitted as much in the vacuum of their competing yesterday. They're slated to race Artemis through this week and since Artemis isn't racing, we probably won't see LR until Saturday when they're scheduled to race NZ again. By not showing up and racing yesterday, they had an additional week to work out the new rudders.
Also remember that the original rule was intended to make foiling unpractical. Some of these limitations have become liabilities now that everyone is foiling - it makes sense to tweak the rule to make things safer and I think the only real argument you could make against it is that the timing leaves something to be desired.
This is such a game of controlling the media that I think the race management fell behind the two protesting challengers in getting their story out. Those two protesting competitors set the tone and we have already seen several glaring inaccuracies out of those reports that you really have to question the whole thing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:02 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition." I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
Th
e fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR. You can see why he's pissed. Then there is the one other bit that is interesting, during his talk he says LR had spun out a couple times. That is news to me at least. So much for the so called perfect foiling design. I think it's time to give the man what he wants. Anyone that thinks US-17 needs IM to step in and win them the regatta is drinking some bad koolaid.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:36 PM
Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG
Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:46 PM
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1310:09 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
Yes, I've been overly vociferous on this topic. Thanks for thinking it's uncharacteristic. I don't have any special information, I just think that the statements and actions of the Regatta Director and the Teams don't add up. That, and it has touched a couple of my hot-buttons.
Quote
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
If the Jury decides to change Murray's proposals, then all he needs to do is give the Coast Guard an updated safety plan and the CG will then amend the permit. It's my understanding that it's pretty much a rubber-stamp deal. Murray, however, shows no intent to do so. Instead, he said that he would tell the CG that the racing is unsafe and expect the CG to withdraw the permit.
Quote
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Indeed. That is one reason I think Murray is acting either disingenuously or irrationally. If Murray ever did act to get the permit rescinded, I expect he would be replaced immediately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:30 PM
Thanks for not taking that comment the wrong way, Eric.
I gave up trying to guess the motives of others long, long ago. Murray is pretty wrapped around the axle about the "all or nothingness" of the 37 rules as a package deal. It could be as simple as thinking he is right, has the authority, and genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing for, and with the perceived support of, all of the teams. I tend to take people at their word, at least until I have good reason not to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:31 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG
Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:51 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
The recommendations originated from ETNZ and LR back on May 17-22 (over six weeks before the first race of the LV). Amazingly, 6 weeks later, when time is precious, ETNZ (June 28) and LR (July 2) protest their very own recommendations.
Let's see the teams with compliant rudders that measure in, regardless of ruling: ETNZ (check) LR (check) OR (check)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1301:29 AM
Anybody know what the rules are regarding traffic on the race course? Seems like a high risk liability to have commercial traffic on the course during racing.
Originally Posted by mummp
Top speed today: 42.8 knots. Full replay below. Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1304:40 AM
Regarding the ferry...
I can speak from my experience at the ACWS in Newport (from aboard a weather mark boat). I would assume the rules are the same, or very similar, as those events were very much test beds for the RC.
There is an outer perimeter, marked by stake boats. These are large (typically monohull) sailing yachts, anchored and flying large red flags. These are set an hour or two prior to race time, based on the expected wind direction and strength, and the best guess for how the course will be set that day.
All normal spectator boats (and non-AC traffic) is required to remain outside of this outer perimeter. It is enforced by marshal boats (small power boats), and for large traffic, the Coast Guard.
VIP boats operate inside of this outer perimeter, and are essentially only limited by the actual course boundaries, which change from race to race (and lap to lap). They don't typically get too close unless they are a fast and maneuverable photo boat.
It's not foolproof. I don't know if anyone saw this on TV, but there were some large motor yachts anchored near Hammersmith Farm (south of Fort Adams) at the ACWS in Newport. This was well inside the restricted zone, and no one really knows why they weren't moved before the racing began (yes, a large portion of the bay was officially closed to unofficial traffic). Anyway, at one point, John had us move so far south, that the course enveloped these anchored boats. The marshals tried to get them to move, but they didn't react fast enough, and at least one of them became a large speed bump as the fleet tacked around them getting to the weather gate.
Having said all of that, I would say that judging by the number of people on that "ferry" in San Fran, it was actually being used as a VIP spectator boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:33 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:45 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1301:15 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.
I'm pretty sure this is the course and why you are seeing marks mid-leg
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:08 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
To why ETNZ,LR changed their minds, They may believe they will have an advantage in not changing the rudder rule. Or they know that with the changes US-17 may be able to set a new sailing speed record. "enter your speculation here" Better yet, why isn't the media banging down the door at ETNZ and LR asking if the claims IM has made are true?
I understand what your saying about the permit. However, honestly IM can't know what the CG will do if he has to go back with those rules removed. He has spent time with the CG and may have more insight to what the CG wants. He is the guy in the jaws of the vise. Currently he has the permit.
I don't believe the CG permit will be pulled. It will be amended with some changes. I think the CG main focus will be keeping the spectators and other boating traffic safe. We now know that a boat has rounded up more than once at over 40 mph. Maybe the spectator fleet may need to be pushed back further. Again, "enter your speculation here"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:15 PM
Mid course gates have been used to keep the action centered (VOR in-port races have used them). Probably not needed for the AC because of all of the digital wizardry.
Leftovers from the start box was really my first guess, but I couldn't recall whether the start was in the middle of the course, or above the windward mark (it's been mid-course for most of the ACWS). Even if those marks have propulsion for self-positioning, getting them off the course fast enough is probably more of a risk than leaving them in place.
As an aside, I listened to a lot of the Murray press conference, there's a lot there that tells me he's a stand-up guy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
Unless they rigged up something for propulsion ,they are just those fun islands(Big kids water toy/lounge tube) with a teepee on top. Saw a closeup of one and you could see the writing on the side. I thought it was pretty creative and frugal considering the way they shovel money around.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1304:14 PM
Other than a lead-time issue, I'm surprised that they didn't get them with proper logos, or bare (no logos).
Losing the mark boats was definitely necessary. Not sure how widely reported this was, or how many of you remember this, but on one of the practice days in Newport, ETNZ was out of control, in traffic that wasn't well-controlled, on the way back to the harbor, and wiped out on one of the VIP (larger) mark boats. No one was hurt, but there was a good deal of damage to both boats.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1305:45 PM
Aaa...I see that NZ is going to tool around the course on their own again today. Is LR going to do that on Thursday when they are slated to go up against Artemis? This is going to get boring relatively quickly.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1308:22 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I feel bad for the announcers who are trying to explain the lack of any competitors in this competition.
I was on the edge of my seat on Sunday wondering who was going to win. That one really came down to the wire.
It does make me wonder how conservative they are being sailing the boat. Are they giving it 100%? I kinda doubt it, tough to justify taking any risks when it's all yours to lose.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:09 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Does this round even matter? I forget how the scoring works, but I get the sense this doesn't really matter, otherwise LR is taking an insane risk.
Mike
It would matter if there were enough competitors that they were fighting for position in the semi-finals...but with three it's meaningless beyond the spectacle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1301:28 PM
Couple of Comments: Andy Green and commentary is much better, and since there is not another boat racing, they are doing a great job to educate what is happening with these new boats, and having team member guests is excellent. A+
Arial camera views are awesome, especially with the close ups. You can see the foot buttons in the ****, and other fine details we never saw before. ETNZ really does have a slick rig.
The foiling gybe. The Kiwi's are looking good. Slowest speed through a foiling gybe was 28 knots, versus 14 knots when loosing the foil. If competitors are similar in upwind speed, looks like the best execution of foiling gybes will win.
The dial up. Imagine closing speeds of 100 mph! This is a completely different animal and is insane. This is extreme sailing at its best. Bring it!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1301:37 PM
“Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. Sure, there’s the talent, but there also has to be the will. Give me human will and the intense desire to win and it will trump talent every day of the week.” Larry Ellison
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1303:13 PM
Newswire: The black panthers will riot if Team Luna Rossa doesn't win it's America's Cup protest.... Oh,wait....skip that... must have gotten my wires crossed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1303:57 PM
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1307:38 PM
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1308:21 PM
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, I'm guessing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
I don't think anyone knows exactly what ENTZ's capability's are when it comes to adjusting the rudder/T-foil. I seem to remember that at one point they were ok with adjusting the T-foil up until the warning signal. With that in mind you would have to assume that they have the ability to change the rudder angle in a fore and aft fashion. Now can they do it on the fly? Don't know.
I think it's proper to view the T-foil on the bottom of the rudders as just that. There are a couple videos posted here that explain Oracle's set up. In the one with RC he shows a T-foil with an adjustable elevator on the back of the T-foil. He said that it could only be adjusted by turning a small screw on the bottom. So I think that is where the term elevator fits into the conversation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1309:41 PM
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
The daggerboard is adjusted on the fly to control foiling. Artemis has an article about it a few pages back.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1309:53 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
One thing about the coverage - WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ON BOARD CAMERAS?!
Those were SOOO cool during the ACWS and we were all led to believe that the 72's would have them as well.
Whats the deal?
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
On-board cameras are definitely required and are included in the class rule. If you want to learn more of the techy stuff google "media module". It is the aero fairing box provided and mounted in center of the rear beam. It is the brains to all the on-board cameras and microphones.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1302:32 AM
They've already planned this out, of course...
My guesses:
If they win, they'll race.
If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.
If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1302:38 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
They've already planned this out, of course...
My guesses:
If they win, they'll race.
If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.
If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).
Mike
I read a comment this evening that they didn't want to prejudice the jury's ruling by sailing in the event to date. I can see this logic from the perspective of the major sponsor who is also heavily involved in the team (and not focused on his sponsorship investment)... I'm betting they sail either way and that the no-show to date has just been a minor thing to them so they can be sure to not affect the outcome. Several articles today state that they think they have a boat that can beat NZ.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:31 PM
so...nutshell...Murray overstepped his bounds with the rule changes regarding the rudders. We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out. I presume LR is going to tool around the course now with bells on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:51 PM
Good read. The jury ruled in favor of Murray on notice 188 but against him on 189. Interesting on USCG position. Sounds like they don't care what's in the permit as long as safe for the bay, other commercial and recreational boaters, etc.
I did find this interesting: "Only LR raised any concerns as to the process by which the Safety Review Committee conducted its enquiry following the capsize of the Artemis Racing AC72 and tragic death of Olympic sailor Andrew Simpson on 9th May 2013. However, all Competitors supported the appointments and cooperated fully with the Committee. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:55 PM
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
This is the best thing that could have happened. Regardless of the final decision, the process was thorough, out in the open, and puts a lot of rumor to rest, especially the USGC part.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:10 PM
"We respect the decision of the America’s Cup Jury," said Grant Simmer, Oracle Team USA General Manager. “We continue to support the Regatta Director and we believe all teams have benefited from his review. We don’t have an issue complying with the Class Rule, and we will be ready to race under the rules affirmed by the Jury.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.
As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:17 PM
I thought Luna Rossa was gaudy when it came out, and still do, but those sailing/spaceman suits are downright comical. I hope those guys got a nice bonus to have to dress like that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:18 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.
As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.
That's good to hear. I never quite got the jist of them NOT being able to sail.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:35 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:31 AM
I'm hopeful that Artemis can find a way to make it work - but I must say I feel better about this ruling in that it should no longer taint any victory.
On another note; I wonder if Luna Rossa's silver metallic life vests are USCG certified?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:31 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1312:51 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.
ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).
The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:43 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
"or there will be no regatta" That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. This is really a bunch of media noise. Fact is OR, LR and NZ are in and racing, therefore we have a cup.
USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.
Bottle of your favorite rum bets that all the teams "agree" to change the class rule so that Artemis gets to race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:59 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.
ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).
The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.
Interesting - so what are the opportunities for the race management to protest a boat for building outside the class rule if the competitors agree to not protest against them? (I hope none).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1303:08 PM
I'm surprised no one is talking about Coutts's response to the rudder design and impact on the water (in one of Philip's video's posted a couple days or so ago) and his take on boat stability vs speed. There's so little info out on how Oracle is running - it's going to be interesting to see this play out.
That said, I've been very impressed with ETNZ thus far. Professional and look to have the boat well sorted. I'm just glad to see we're going to be doing some racing!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1303:25 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
I'm not 100% sold on that just yet but admit it is a definite possibility. Regardless, I bet the next cup is also on multihulls (a little smaller and truely less expensive) with a rule designed for foiling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:04 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:26 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:52 PM
This video adds some good perspective to it all. My thoughts are how do you hide it when your about to gybe or tack? This part will be interesting. Additionally, this is match racing, how will the techniques change when you are covering at these speeds. You fake a gybe and your challenger might ram into your butt. These things don't have brakes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:11 PM
That video appears to show that Oracle has better ride height control. When they're foiling (both boats) in that video, they are foiling but still very close to the water. I would think this has some aero advantages. I think ETNZ has just been more on the front page about technology and performance so we naturally start to see them as the ones to beat. I'm not sure we will have this figured out until, at earliest, the first race between the defender and the final challenger.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:25 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?
Control and speed from all the vids I've seen all play to ETNZ,hands down, and I was rooting for Oracle, so I don't think I'm BS'ing myself.
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:36 PM
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point. Or will we have one more protest?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1306:00 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point. Or will we have one more protest?
As I understand it, Oracle has compliant rudders and its just a matter of which ones to use.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1306:03 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1307:16 PM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)
Right height control is your friend!
I'll have to check that out. Ride height is important from an aero and foil efficiency perspective. If your ride height is so high that the tip of the foil is coming out of the water, it's AOA (angle of attack) is high and inefficient. I bet we'll see ETNZ foil lower when (if) they get behind.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1307:46 PM
Comments on Maker Camp: Picked up some interesting stuff and thought it was well done. Jibs: used 16 times at $40,000/jib. Sail loft and sewing machines: Wow Boat: 90% carbon, 10% aluminum, 1% titanium Steering wheel: hollow Carbon weighing 350 grams (3/4 lb) 3D printing of electronic components Google+ guest Sam looked alot like a young Jake
If I ever was to dumpster dive I want to do it in Oracle's dumpsters.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:17 PM
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:23 PM
The jibs have a longer life than on the IACC boats. On the IACC they used to count the number of times the jib had been tacked. I think the life spam was something like 40-50 TACKS.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:28 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
Per the rules - the rudders can move in a single axis to change AOA but must be locked for racing. Least that's how I'm reading it....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:33 PM
"But it is a major loss for the beleaguered America's Cup Regatta. Again not for the Decision, which is a no-change. The loss comes from the damage done by those attempting to pervert the Rules - reflected in the constant general media droning about the litigious face of the America's Cup once again peering over the parapet, of what should be the pinnacle event in sailing."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:37 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
I think you'll find that every team has the ability to adjust their rudder rake in some fashion. They wouldn't be able to do what they do without it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1312:12 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. ...USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.
“This means racing can continue if the teams abide by the existing Class Rule and the Safety Rules,” said ACEA chief executive, Stephen Barclay. That implies that if the teams do not abide by the "safety rules", then racing cannot continue.
Regatta Notice 189 has been officially withdrawn (see RN 201) so the safety plan no longer ranks as rules, but the ACEA and the Regatta Director have elected NOT to amend USCG permit. So, either the teams abide by the safety plan "voluntarily", or the event is in violation of its permit terms.
That isn't really a problem, given that the only objections anybody had were to the class rule changes, and those are out. It just irks me that ACEA still seems pretty high-handed. You won't see anybody complain though. The Jury was pretty firm about sportsmanship in it's decision: "the Jury specifically reminds all Parties of their obligation to respect and preserve the favourable reputation of the America's Cup and the sport of sailing, and to refrain from any conduct that may be perceived as being other than in compliance with Protocol Article 60". The bickering, at least, should stop and that's a good thing.
I expect that Artemis will be allowed to compete, but I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle countered ETNZ with a proposal to change the class rule (permitting large, symmetric elevators for all) rather than specifically giving Artemis an exemption.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1304:03 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1312:53 PM
Magazines: Here are two magazines that might be of interest. The first link you can save as a PDF. The second magazine would be similar to what you might get if you were at the event. It contains team bios, cup history, and copious ads for local swank. Enjoy. http://www.sailracingmagazine.com/2013-editions/kr1vcfi4dlybpxsmrenmdolo1j5cmg
Judging by those giant blue/black flags, I'd say they're official. Most likely stake boats, possibly VIP boats. Why they were inside the boundary can be a variety of reasons.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1302:14 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1302:43 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
This x 1000
Until they line up together, we'll never know. As much as people say that ETNZ has it all figured out, they seemed to have some problems maintaining foiling in 18 knots of breeze yesterday. Sure their gybes are foiling but so are Oracles' now.
Fact of the matter is that its anyone's guess who is faster up until the race is run. I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1304:21 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...
Quote
"Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.
Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1304:53 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...
Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.
Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:26 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:30 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.
They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.
They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.
I believe the commentators ( term used loosely) said the conditions/ windspeed were up and down. They'll all suffer in puffiness, nature of the beast. Highest reported breeze of the day was during LR's finish.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:48 PM
"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .
There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1312:44 AM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.
Me, too, Tad. While I have my opinion about NZL, don't mistake that for a lack of desire to watch the Cup unfold. It was sailors on the couch at my house for the race, and even my kid thought it was pretty exciting. I want to see it all, but my bet is out there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1301:24 AM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.
The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:00 AM
I certainly haven't kept up with this iteration as much as I have in the past - but I'm not sold that Oracle didn't originally intend to foil. The rule was written "to discourage" foiling but I think there was room purposely fitted in for it to happen...though it wouldn't be easy. NZ certainly figured it out and I think it's practically a forgone conclusion that NZ and Oracle will meet in the challenge. Also don't discount the fact that Oracle is still designing/developing and has the advantage of measured data of the challengers to work from (i.e., sensors and data transponders that were written into the rule and are available for download by anyone on the internet!)
Regarding yesterday's race, LR talks about how boat handling cost them that time - but the speed indicators between the two boats tell a different story. There was constantly 1 or 2 knots difference in boats speed up and downwind. LR has some catching up to do but at least they have a "preliminary" race series to get it improved.
It will certainly be interesting to see Artemis in the mix but they've not borrowed technology from Oracle anywhere close to the amount that LR borrowed from TNZ....heck, Artemis' first boat didn't even foil. They won't be much of a measure for Oracle's performance and it's hard to imagine them being much of a factor in the LV cup.
I just hope we get to see some back and forth racing - it's going to be pretty boring to watch after a while if it's a one boat show and we're going to lose the public after the impression of the advanced technology wears off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1303:34 AM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.
The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.
Look into the latest iteration of A cats if you doubt me. More stability/buoyancy brings on foiling faster. If you look at side shots of ETNZ and Oracle, Etnz's version of less volume is still WAY more than Oracle's. This pic was first version, I believe, but you get the idea. My A cat was designed by one of Oracle's lead designers, Dirk Kramers, so believe me when I say, I hope they win, I mean it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1312:48 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .
There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:00 PM
so, looking at Saturday's 2-boat race, did LR lose more ground on the upwind side of the course than downwind? It seemed that way to me, even though I did note (as Jake pointed out) that there was consistent speed deltas of 1-2 knots.
Looked like LR had more trouble keeping a steady ride-height, and coming back up to speed after tacking uphill. Not much, mind you, but when you're going 20 kts up and 40 kts down a few extra seconds building speed costs you dearly.
I'm wondering how all this race time on water is helping ENTZ perfect their seamanship. Is US-17 limited in their 2-boat testing/training time? Will this eventually hurt them in boathandling skill?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:56 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.
I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.
I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.
They also seem to be having success with a smaller jib. I know that everybody is trying a lot of different jib configurations, but you can't argue with the success of the smaller one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1309:36 PM
"Kiwi sailor Craig Monk believes if Team New Zealand had been able to keep their foiling programme under wraps for even a month longer, the America's Cup would now be as good as theirs."
"Team NZ boss Grant Dalton told the Herald last month they would have liked to have kept it a secret longer, but "it was like trying to hide an elephant in a phone box - you can't".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1311:43 PM
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1312:12 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1311:26 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1307:11 PM
That view looking back over your shoulder had to be intimidating. Fun stuff!
A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1309:03 PM
Originally Posted by rehmbo
A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.
I started kite boarding last year. I'm never looking for crew and the whole rig fits in the trunk. Steep learning curve though.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/1312:01 PM
I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.
I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.
Mike
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/1301:17 PM
Was there an Oracle cologne too? - ode de Ellison? was there equal shelf space? If not, i think it is unfair advantage and should be contested
Originally Posted by brucat
I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.
I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/1311:19 AM
“The safety management plan we’ve requested from the teams includes a playbook on how they race their boats, how they go around marks, the systems they have to set and control, the speeds required to maneuver… basically, how they manage their boat around the racecourse,”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1301:01 AM
"Currently with the Defenders able to conduct in-house racing - Defence Trials or otherwise, on the America's Cup Course, they are able to cross-reference their performance data against that already available on the Challengers. Their additional advantage is that they can sail just before or after the Challengers, so get a better bearing on the actual conditions on the day - even though the winds may change in strength or direction.
Another implication of the claim is that the Defenders are able to conduct a closed race session on the America's Cup course, while the Challengers are obliged to conduct an open session in terms of the performance data."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1307:55 PM
I'm a little behind watching this broadcast...but some thought provoking action today. NZ had their jib break (halyard or zipper busted...something)...after some wrangling, they released the jib off the boat, their chase boat pounced on it to collect it and LR had to tack away to avoid the chase boat. Should that be a penalty? (I think so...at least a simple foul).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1308:05 PM
It's hard to tell how much they're loosing downwind without the jib...but NZ is in some big breeze and the lack of a jib hasn't cost them anything yet. NZ running at over 38 knots while LR is running in the low 30's.
NZ is still foiling all the way through their gybes and making 5 knots better than LR. I hope Oracle has something for this...NZ sure looks good....and I'm wondering if we'll see jibs in the future.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1311:22 PM
I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1311:45 AM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?
Good point...but they're not throwing stuff in the water that I have to dodge as we proceed up the course. Consider if LR had been closer and they couldn't avoid hitting the jib and got fouled up in it. What then?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1301:37 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.
It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.
Mike
So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.
All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?
Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1301:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.
It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.
Mike
So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.
All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?
Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.
I know in the 45s you could drop a crew member and not have to come back. We've seen the old AC monohulls drop kites and stuff off the boat with no penalty. I would presume the rules allow you to drop stuff on the 72s (clearly since NZ received no penalty) but I would hope it limits the James Bond devices. ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1303:23 PM
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Any body have any more info about the "strings" in the wheel that Andy Green said control ride height?
I had wild visions of green and red yarn attached to the wheel trying to figure out how in the heck they would use this, attached to a wheel no less, to control anything.
I think I remember seeing someone (Oracle) with some sort of wire that went around the inside perimeter of the wheel - I thought it was structural to keep the wheel as light as possible but maybe it's part of this string system they mentioned.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1304:57 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!
I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1305:44 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!
I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?
LR and oracle both have a line around the inside of the wheel, but like you, I can't see how it controls anything. I've heard it mentioned twice. Plus ,I thought all that foil stuff had to be fixed/ non-adjustable. The only use I see for the jib is getting out of irons if you got luffed up in the pre start, and the drag penalty may not be worth it. You'd have to believe with all the money dumped into R&D they'd have this figured out. C's and A's use only mains/wings because it is the most efficient use of the allowed sail area. Marstrom also advocates this on their cats big and small. The other idea is maybe ETNZ dumped the jib on purpose to give their sister ship a chance at getting a point and not being behind the 5 min. cut off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1307:51 PM
I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1309:20 PM
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1306:24 PM
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1307:09 PM
I've been watching virtual eye on dual screens with the live feed. I like the overhead view which we seem to get less of with the live video. Really shows their downwind angles, as well as the upwind from a great perspective. Virtual Eye
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:17 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.
Here is the replay. The live broadcast missed the 30 seconds before the start, and it's missing on the replay also. Oh well.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:58 PM
Wow, TNZ certainly is kicking some LR butt. I'll bet Larry is skeerd now! If not, he should be!
At almost no time, did I see LR posting a faster speed than TNZ. TNZ seemed to be going downwind at around 38, while LR was around 33-35. It was closer upwind, only about 1-2kt diff. but still slower, all the time.
Anyone hear why was LR so late at the start?
And Philip, thanks for all the links, great stuff!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:18 AM
I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1308:14 AM
Did you guys catch the comment about the effect of current on apparent wind? Didn't hear all of it but the idea was that sailing with the current reduces apparent wind and their by overall speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1310:20 AM
I think one of the Oracle sailors told them about it so some information may have gotten lost in translation. It does kind of make sense, if the current takes you in the same direction as the wind you lose some wind speed. I have noticed this myself while sailing but don't think sailing against the current is worth it at the speeds that we do?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1311:17 AM
I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.
Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.
So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.
This will certainly effect the apparant wind; this app.wind will increase and will be turned more to the bow (more close-hauled).
If you will lose boatspeed because of that effect, will finally depend on the boat. The boatspeed will even want to be higher because of this increased (apparant) wind (the speed was already higher because of the current).
Only problem is the direction of the apparant wind which is more and more close-hauled!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1311:21 AM
We're they (ETNZ at least) not sailing downwind when that comment was made?Seems that sailing with the current would increase the apparent wind downhill.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1312:41 PM
Glad these races are short. With these kind of blowouts imagine a 3 hour race(more than boring). I was watching the Utube live feed view count and it was only about 8K. Not very high. And after 2 legs I was only checking back every few min to see if anything interesting had happened. If NZ is blowing out Luna this bad imagine how bad the racing will be against Artimis.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1312:55 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.
Darren Bundocks comment,
Oracle is getting prepared for the Final, and seeing the Kiwis races, I'm glad OR has a two boat test to keep pushing the limits, TNZ is fast, Oracle looks even quicker , but how much faster can you go? Will find out soon, but I'm sure beyond speed diff , if any, we will see some incredible Matches between them.
"And in the middle of one of the bear aways we got a sharp gust at just the wrong angle. We didn’t wipe out but it was a hairy moment. I was thinking, ‘What am I doing here?’ I was thinking about Bart.”
To tell your grandkids, ‘I was there with Jess Ennis or Mo Farah at the closing ceremony’.”
With typical modesty, Ainslie neglects to mention that he was chosen to carry Team GB’s flag in the Olympic Stadium that night."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:17 PM
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.
Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.
So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.
I think the foils add more complexity to the equation. The speed at which an AC72 starts foiling is determined by the speed through the water (23kts?). So to reach the same speed through the water you would need to sail quicker over ground than if you where sailing against the current right? (Maybe 3kts or so).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:34 PM
That makes sense at lower wind ranges where foiling may be borderline. Yesterday the comment was made that ETNZ was using it to their advantage at 35-38kts. It would seem to me that if they were already traveling those speeds then the adverse current is only extra drag. I am no expert though, nor did I stay at the holiday inn last night.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:35 PM
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:57 PM
OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1302:06 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;
"Right or Left?"
I'm quite confident these guys knew exactly where they were going and why. The effect of current on VMG is something they got sorted out long ago.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1303:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1303:33 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.
Hmmm...I'm not sure that the water still isn't the largest resistance to the boat speed even on foils...but I'll have to ponder that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:37 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I'd have to guess aero drag is bigger once on foils.
Yeah, I was struggling with the physics on this but if you take it to the extreme and consider a surface with absolutely no friction, you really don't care how fast that surface is moving as long as it isn't tied to your motive force. So, as your friction on your running surface is reduced, the amount it moves is less important to your true motion...you guys are right. I think the foil drag is still significant so current does come into play (most definitely upwind) but it is significantly less a factor than it would be on a 6knot SB. If the effect of water current on the old slow monodulls was 90%, I suspect it's closer to as little as 25-30% on the 72 cats.
What I do think was interesting is the commentator's statement that the maximum windspeed allowable for racing was adjusted by factoring in current...funny, this.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:48 PM
As I consider this further, I think the current still does have some impact on different points of sail - consider reaching when the current and the wind are in the same direction and you are moving perpendicular to them both...the water movement does subtract from the overall wind here because the boat is having to directly compensate for the additional slip to leeward that subtracts from (or push to windward that adds to) the wind. On this point of sail, if the boat doesn't have any friction in the water, they're just sliding down the course.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1310:39 PM
I would guess based on the images we're seeing today - testing is going pretty damn well!!! Those guys - that crew, they've gotta be so stoked... Testament to the whole operation....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1312:09 PM
"Artemis will miss its seventh scheduled race in the Louis Vuitton Cup challenger series Thursday, so Luna Rossa will sail unopposed. It is not known when the Swedish team will enter the regatta, but it probably won't happen until the semifinals start Aug. 6."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1301:48 PM
I'm sure no one wants that boat racing sooner than the Artemis team.
However, it would be borderline reckless to race the new boat within days of splashing it. This isn't an off the shelf boat, isn't likely to handle like the old boat (which hasn't been sailable since the tragedy), and can hit close to 50 knots.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:13 PM
Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:16 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:21 PM
and this Looking at the NZ wing profile might explain their blazing speed. Artemis seems to be heading in the same direction. Definitely a lower aero profile. Oracle, what's ya got??
Black Flag, really? LR clearly doesn't want to be embarrassed when they run aground (again)? Blaming it on wanting to build teamwork? Companies pay big bucks to send employees to "race" on 12 Meters in Newport as a team-building exercise...
It amazes me, every time I think I couldn't possibly respect the leadership of this team any less, they find yet another creative way to lower the bar...
Sadly, I used to love LR, back in the San Diego Cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1311:23 PM
Stable beautiful foiling in 12 knots. Tom Schnackenberg "Boat's peak today was 40(knots)". Each and every single member of the Artemis program are already WINNERS! What a journey. "Keep an eye on us Bart" Go eat you some Prada!!!!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1303:19 AM
Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1311:51 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.
These guys are nowhere near race form. They just started foiling, for the first time, a day or so ago. To jump into a race will lock them into the conditions for the day and will put the team into a scenario where human nature takes over and they start making aggressive decisions they may cost them. It's a better decision to not race and get some time on the boat. LR has had months of foiling practice and experience - I wouldn't expect that Artemis really has anything for them at this point.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1303:02 PM
Yikes! It's going to be interesting the first time a dagger board foil hits something in the water while at full speed. What type of marine life is in the Bay that they might encounter? Dolphins? Any big sea turtles? Orca's? That'd slow you down!
I know I've hit plenty of turtles on my lake, luckily I wasn't going 40kts up on foils!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/1303:14 PM
America's Cup Recent News July 26, 2013 Barclay: The underdog GMR_AC34JulyD22_0790
What is it about the underdog that compels us to support them? Is it that we relate to the underdog at a personal level and so we want to see them succeed?
Many do succeed. Cassius Clay was a 7-1 underdog in 1964 when he took on Sonny Listen for the heavyweight championship of the world; Seabiscuit, the unremarkable thoroughbred that lost his first seventeen races, went on to capture the heart of America; and Susan Boyle, the unpolished 47-year-old woman performing on Britain’s Got Talent — more than 64 million people have now seen the inspiring video clip of her turning Simon Cowell’s smirk into a smile. A tribute to Bart is carried on the Artemis Racing wing.
May 9, 2013, will forever be etched into our minds as the day we lost Andrew “Bart” Simpson. It affected all of us in some way, but nowhere near as much or as deeply as the Artemis Racing team. They were heartbroken and devastated by what happened.
The team didn’t know if it could compete. In fact, they didn’t know if they wanted to compete. But over the past 10 weeks that feeling has changed for several reasons: for Bart, for team owner Torbjörn Törnqvist, for the fans and most importantly for themselves and their families – they did not want the story to end on May 9.
Part of the journey back required the team being confident in their new boat. The other teams assisted with actual load data (including what was learned from the ORACLE TEAM USA capsize) and my information is that Artemis Racing tested Big Blue up to 120 percent with some of those loads! For those who have seen the photos of Big Blue being bent, distorted, pulled and pushed, it was clearly a rigorous process and she came through with flying colors. Load testing the structure of Artemis.
Now, Artemis Racing is back and was out foiling on day one. Inspirational! Big Blue and the team look amazing. Today will be the third day in a row they are out testing and tuning her for racing.
When will they race? Will they be competitive? I think we all want them to do well.
Paul Cayard calls it “climbing a mountain” and Artemis Racing has been doing just that. Step by step. They are not at the top, but they are close! I look forward to seeing them racing. I look forward to seeing them atop the mountain.
Stephen Barclay CEO, America’s Cup Event Authority
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/1308:27 PM
Food for thought. So, IF the Kiwis choose to advance to the Final and IF Artemis Racing were to beat Luna Rossa in the Semi Final, Emirates Team New Zealand may feel vulnerable to being unable to control any changes to the Protocol that Artemis Racing and ORACLE TEAM USA want to make.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/1312:24 PM
Artemis wasn't planning on racing, but since NZ has stated they're not racing, Artemis could make it a practice run and earn a point. At this point it doesn't matter for either team.
“But we also have a fairly large amount of work to do to our boat, a lot of changes and modifications intended to improve the performance.” . . . the Kiwis will focus on a number of subtle changes which should, as Barker explains, “make us significantly faster around the course.”
Some would argue that this view is contradicted by trends in classes such as the F18 and A-Class catamarans, and the International Moth. The F18 and A-Class cats have both seen a trend to wider, flatter hulls in recent years. However, this occurred prior to the successful use of efficient lifting foils. I would not be surprised if, once full foiling becomes more commonplace in these classes, a trend back to more conventional displacement-type hulls occurs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1305:41 PM
I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not. GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1305:58 PM
I picked up a Chromecast last week - watching the matches on a 27" monitor was already pretty cool, but on the 60" where it belongs is better. Ready for the semis.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1306:23 PM
John,
In surround sound also.
I got one the day it released. Love it. There are APK's that are already created for phone to device directly (i.e. gallery, dropbox, music, videos, etc) and the device was rooted within hours. It's just a matter of time before you can cast anything from phone to device. There is an app already that the dev will be updating soon. I can email some info if you want. I'm android fyi.
How much did Tom Cruz have to "donate" to get to drive?
Huh??? No celebrity pays for anything. He probably even got paid for appearing. This was undoubtedly a publicity stunt, to get a sponsor, appease a sponsor, or was directly paid for by a sponsor.
This would be true for any A-list celebrity. Especially true for this guy. There's no way his ego would allow his wallet to open for this...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/1302:47 PM
Another excellent article by Richard Gladwell. Is it fair?? The Challengers are deemed to be different because although they are also sailing on the America's Cup course, they are (correctly) deemed to be racing in a Selection Series, while the Defenders because they are a 'Team of One' have no Defender Selection Series, and are immune from the requirement to publicly release data. Jury Decision Defender Candidate Status and Course Access
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/1309:12 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not. GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.
The Contour+ also does this too. I think Contour brought this type of connectivity to the market and GoPro had to chase them. I've got a Contour and it's a nice camera. I've had the chance to compare the Contour and the latest GoPro and if I had to do it again, I probably would go with the GoPro because it's video quality is slightly better. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/1303:52 PM
Interesting - things have been quiet with Oracle the last week or so. With all the updates from ETNZ and Artemis - OTUSA has been pretty quiet (other than team guy introductions)....
Surely with them having a few runs with ETNZ and Artemis - they would have some updates?
Its possible to foil upwind in these boats... all they need to do is trim the angle of the boards to pop her up, but the problem is that when you do that, you lose headway bigtime apparently.
I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.
I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/1301:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Whats worse is Jobson. That guy shouldn't be allowed near a microphone.
I watch an episode of "The Moment - 101 America's Cup Sailor" on my new Chromecast. Jobson doing a reality sailing show. Don't watch. Jobson at his worst. Acting and reality TV should not be in Jobson's quiver. FAIL
On second thought, watch it, for some comedy relief. . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.
That might be worth watching to see if/how they would implement upwind foiling as a tactic... but you're right from what I've been able to read - you can foil, but at the expense of a lot of leeway uphill...
I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.
Yeah, I turn the volume down. He does get some good video though. Just a couple things in it that are good to see. Some good foiling gybes by US-17 and on the one upwind leg she starts to rise on the foil. Looking like the Cup will be a good match.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/1303:09 AM
That pre-start was horrendous. For both teams. They both have excuses (our first race, our wing ripped), but wow, that was pathetic.
Artemis definitely has their work cut out for them. Their own target speeds upwind were 2 knots less than LR.
ETNZ has nothing to worry about, other than self-destruction...
It was GREAT to have Kenny back on the air! I'd much rather be rooting for him sailing, but he is definitely at the top of my list for commentators at the moment. What's up with Gary? He sounded like he was on a breathing machine every time he spoke...
America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.
An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.
Artemis practicing foiling gybes. Overall - looks much improved. We'll see what things bring today once the race starts! Would love to see them put in a great start and force LR to actually race.
America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.
An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.
Well, its not like the lead bricks being moved around would have changed the results of the regattas ...
However the boats should have been inspected/measured prior to every regatta. I just don't see how RC or anyone else would knowingly do this given that the ACWS to them is pretty meaningless overall.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1307:16 PM
O.K. all you techies. Looks like I'm blacked out from viewing today's race. http://www.youtube.com/americascup NBC is broadcasting today's race as a taped delay If this is the case I'm pissed. Anybody know a hack if indeed we are blacked out in the US.
Should be a close and exciting race. Last delta was 2 minutes, and that was with Artemis not succeeding with the foiling gybe. Looks like they found the key yesterday. If that's the case should be close racing.
"Veteran announcer Todd Harris will serve as the play-by-play commentator for the NBC Sports Network telecasts. Harris will be joined by former America’s Cup Helmsman and Volvo Ocean Race skipper Ken Read, as well as renowned sailor and author Gary Jobson."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1308:43 PM
Yes, NBC bought VS long ago...
Kenny is doing a great job, but it's obvious that there aren't enough guys out there with experience racing these boats to call the play. He keeps talking about gybe/sets...
Anyone else notice that whenever the guys mention the Artemis tragedy, or accidents, they stop midstream? I'm thinking the guys in their ear pieces are self-censoring...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1308:53 PM
Resolution keeps going in and out, can't imagine that NBC Like this feed. With all of the $ they are putting into the broadcast, you would think they could get a handle on the resolution!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1309:01 PM
My video has been flawless. The onboard cameras and audio is what I envisioned when they designed this race years ago, exceeds my expectations. Now give me a quad view screen with the ability to go full screen at will.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/1310:16 AM
Things are not looking good for Oracle with the Rule 69 inquiry going forward. Apparently they loaded their pelican strikers with 5 pounds of lead, don't really see how that would make them go faster but strange nonetheless.
Here's the replay race 3. Spectacular cinematography. The video from helicopters and chase boats were rock stable. The onboard camera depth of field was awesome, especially on the LR boat. You get the sensation of 3D from the full range depth of field and contrast. Onboard audio from the boats and sailors add the sensation of being there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/1306:49 PM
Race 4, starts today at 13:15 PDT. North America can watch replay tonight or live via virtual eye with audio commentary. Live broadcast available in North America with the app. BLUE
Here is the replay of race 4. So Umps rule a double penalty on Artemis, it is assumed that the ruling was based on LR acquired ROW per Starboard. The Double was because Artemis gained an advantage because of the foul. Question is was it a good call? Did LR give Artemis room to keep clear? It looked like Outteridge did not react. Good stuff.
Luna Rossa, on the other hand, is not the same team that was DSQ against NZ for finishing >5 minutes behind them in the round robins. They have improved dramatically, both in boat speed and handling. Both LR and NZ expect to bring updated platforms the next time they meet.
Then there is talk that both NZ and Oracle might bring upwind foiling to the game, if it proves they can get better VMG with it. We'll see.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:31 AM
That penalty on Artemis was crap. From the moment they lost right of way, they could have done nothing different. Outterage has the wheel hard to port for an eternity before they touched. If you go look at the video replay of the race at 35:46 you can clearly see outterage turn the wheel hard to port before LR crosses head to wind. He is not required to anticipate that LR will go completely to starboard. He is required to start to avoid when LR obtains right of way and he did that before that even happened. LR has to give them time and opportunity. I feel like Artemis clearly met their obligation.
The insult is that it really looked like Artemis had a shot at winning that one. They looked much better.
I hope they have an opportunity for redress...but I'm not sure how that works in this series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1301:35 AM
Outterage even says so at 35:55. You can clearly hear him in the audio. Guess the umps didn't see it. They were probably too busy watching the jibs to determine S/P and missed it. They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds. I felt like Outterage nailed it, a successful luff, and likewise Draper pulled off an interesting reaction.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:07 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds.
Obviously...but the judges should have a good understanding of the maneuverability of these boats and should have been able to recognize that what Artemis would have had to have done to keep clear was impossible. It's their job to know enough to make the right call...and that one should have been an easier one if they knew what they should have known.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:56 PM
Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.
I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.
Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1301:15 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.
I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.
Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?
Undoubtedly because they were behind and needed to push the limits to try and get an advantage. They just pushed it too far.
The other frustration on their part is the length of time it took the umpires to issue the penalty...I'm sure they were trying to figure out what they had just been penalized for when it came up as they had just rounded the first mark. The competitor should have as much time to react as it took the judges to issue the penalty. ;-)
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in that umpire discussion that ensued after the contact. You can bet that it was not a unanimous decision.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1302:01 PM
In the broadcast there was talk that when the call went to jib someone signaled they were not ready and they had to delay the jibe which put them out of bounds.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1302:59 PM
That was penalty #3. #2 They attempted to go beyond LR's line and tack out of their wind shadow. This put them out of bounds. For a change LR sailed a good race with no out of bounds penalties.
I agree with the above the start was a mistake on the umpires part. Artemis had a perfect start and excellent boat speed on the first reaching leg. There is definitely a possibility they would have won had they not incurred the massive penalty from the pre-start.
It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current. I suspect this is why Oracle and TNZ have been working on foiling upwind. Even at a net VMG penalty, if they can scoot across the course extremely quickly doing 25 kts+ upwind they open up their escape options upwind...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1303:05 PM
Don't know how reliable this report is from the SA Forums but here you go:
Quote
From the start of race 4 - here is the distressing truth:
The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios and saw what happened:
1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best 2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start 3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty 4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty - Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water) 5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button) 6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty. 7. It was a total kiss up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1 8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty 9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is 10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ?? 10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.
CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1304:14 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current.
I also think that the 2 minute dial up is a complete travesty of match racing. There's just not enough time at these speeds. . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1304:37 PM
Agree completely, the pre-start has been the most exciting part of the AC72's so far, especially for the non-sailors. Only getting one shot at a dial up really limits the action needlessly.
Emirates Team New Zealand is now the Challenger of Record by virtue of Artemis Racing’s elimination. Emirates Team New Zealand now has the right of veto over any last-minute attempts to change the Protocol or the racing rules. - See more at: http://etnzblog.com/#!2013/08/big-w
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1309:47 PM
Lol. I laugh every time I see on board footage of Luna Rossa. Chris Draper appeared to be carrying an ipad on his belly that made him appear like even more of a storm trooper.
I really hope they beat TNZ in one race so they aren't picked on forever about their team uniform. It's probably waay too late, hot pink jumpsuits would be better.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1308:34 AM
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1312:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
5 lbs makes no sense at all. I don't care where it was placed. It didn't change the performance of the boat. The rules are the rules though. I think the people here realize that.
I can think of only three things it could be, cheating, stupidity or sabotage. I'm hoping it's the last one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1312:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1301:25 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)
Indeed. Proportionally speaking, it'd be like us putting a water bottle in a forward tramp pocket.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1304:35 PM
Why??
No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.
If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...
I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1305:40 PM
Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it...
Arguably the best place would be half in the bows and half in the transoms. This would increase moment of inertia and reduce pitching.
It would decrease the frequency of the pitching but increase the distance it pitches - which may not be favorable. The traditional school of thought is that it's better to reduce the depth of the pitching since the waves are going to help dictate the pitch regardless of weight position. It doesn't fit 100% of the situations, but I have understood that it is generally better to have the weight centralized.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1307:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why??
No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.
If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...
I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.
I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1308:56 PM
Quote
I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.
The culture is... We bend the rules a bit...we don't break them... because we are special!
So, Now... we have to add weight.... Where? epoxy plus lead... or for the last boat... just lead shot... to the king post. OR where the rule tells us... When your special.... you bend the rules... AND GET AWAY WITH IT....
OOOPS!
(I want to know if the youth teams were putting the boats together and the free lead shot fell out of the king post tube with balls everywhere starting the WTF is this about questions.)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:06 AM
That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:17 AM
Um, I don't really know how to say this, John, but I read your reply on my phone without being able to see the left side of the screen (to see who posted it), and and disturbing as it was, I could only think of ONE person who possibly could have written that to such a level of detail, and I was right...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:58 AM
Originally Posted by John Williams
That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.
hahahah.... the dude's 68. There's no harm in having a few experience wrinkles on your bow.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1306:57 PM
Racing for the finals starts Saturday. Be prepared. Only one day is live on YouTube. Currently, we can watch it live with the APP, but I'm wondering if NBC will try to kill that also. Broadcast Schedule LV Finals
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
+1 The gains upwind would have been negated downwind anyway. Besides, it's MORE weight.
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
It doesn't make sense for RC, LE and crew to risk their reputation and respect of their competitors on a silly 5lbs inconsequential weight.
The only way I can see this being intentional is if RC wanted to do something JUST like this to get the competitors focused on things other than the competition. Rope-a-dope.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/1304:33 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Foiling gybes are definitely NOT smooth - thats for sure. I really hope that OTUSA is sandbagging.
The guy that took that vid said the wind was 6-12 knots during the first few gybes. The other thing is make sure which boat your looking at. Focus on OR2. Easy to tell now by the sprit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:12 AM
LOL, So much for the perfect boat with the perfect crew. I think LR was going to protest the removal of the fairing. Quite a bit of change from when measured in.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:31 AM
" Two minute later the Italians issued a protest, however at the time of posting this article, we had no confirmation why, what for, or who against. " Article Update: Protest withdrawn.
"The capsize cause seemed to be related to a daggerboard angle issue, or rudder trim issue - given that the boat was already up and foiling and sailing fast in the bearaway"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:51 AM
Do you know if there are scuppers on the side of the hulls? Right after the stuff, just after the two guys fall overboard, you'll see water pouring out of the hull from what looks like 2, two foot long scuppers.
At first I thought each crew had put his foot through the hull and that was water pouring out of the hull, but after watching the replay several times, it must be scuppers, but where is the water coming from?
I thought any water above and between the hulls would go straight down through the fishnet tramp. So where is all that water that's pouring out of those slots coming from?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1301:26 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1301:30 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:21 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:23 PM
For anyone else interested in tuning in, NBC Sports channel (relatively new channel) is broadcasting the races. As Todd pointed out, it's under "Yachting" (please raise your pinky finger and take a sip of your tea just prior to enunciating this word with a delightful hint of a British accent...when will they ever learn that they not only need to change the boats, but they need to be careful with what they call this stuff to make it exciting). The replays are usually available on youtube about an hour after the scheduled broadcast.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:35 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:15 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.
The Oracle practice race was run before the LV finals and broadcast on Youtube live. Pretty smart of them to do that to have filler for postponements and such. First broadcast race and exactly what people complained about, happened. Big delays ,then cancellation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:37 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't think there is enough difference in hull width between oracle and TNZ for that to make much difference. They're different, but both still fairly fine in the scheme of things. Especially compared to a N-20 deck and hull shape. More like the difference between 2 current, different manufacturer, F-18s. The wing is trimmed by a winch that is controlled hydraulically ,so the control is just like any winch on any boat, sans winch handle. The trimmer, in this case Glenn Ashby, controls the amount and speed of trim or ease with the sheet, instantly,i.e the hydros spin the winch not pull the sheet like an Extreme 40. Wing loads are considerably lower than soft sail loads also, for what it's worth. The announcer was talking about foil angle to far back. Watch the replay, yes,the top is back but that makes the bottom of the foil(under the boat) forward (it pivots on the bottom of the trunk) which gives positive aoa/lift. Pure power caused that problem, coupled possibly with loss of rudder foil ( negative aoa). Not sure Deano could have done anything with the helm to stop it.Like Ken Read said, "Nature of the beast".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:57 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.
Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.
I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1304:37 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.
Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.
I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P
You know me, I hate change. I was hoping to get away from Motorola phones because of their penchant for keeping them locked after they stop supporting the platform ( sounds familiar maybe even N-20esque) but if that's what there is then so be it. Appreciate the advice. I've only been due for an upgrade (2 yr contract up) for about 6 months. I actually want the GzOne commando ,but apparently it's got battery and glitch issues.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1304:48 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
I thought that until I threw in the towel on the droids and got the iPhone. It works SO much better, never crashes, never have to pull the battery, battery lasts longer, screen works better. My 4s was superior to my droid x2 in almost everyway.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1305:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
How Aussies saw the incident :
Look right over the letters nd in New Zealand, and at the E in Nespresso, as they come up from the stuff, did you see the water pouring out of the two slots on the side of the hull? Where is that water coming from? Do they have a slot all the way through the hull, to drain water off the fishnet tramp? I wouldn't think there would be that much water pooling on the tramp, it's fish net, right? It must be water coming back from that solid part (that pealed back) at the front beam?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1305:57 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
How Aussies saw the incident :
Look right over the letters nd in New Zealand, and at the E in Nespresso, as they come up from the stuff, did you see the water pouring out of the two slots on the side of the hull? Where is that water coming from? Do they have a slot all the way through the hull, to drain water off the fishnet tramp? I wouldn't think there would be that much water pooling on the tramp, it's fish net, right? It must be water coming back from that solid part (that pealed back) at the front beam?
Tim, Watch the helicopter close ups in today's race, or go back and watch some replays. They essentially are grinding in a recessed tub. Those ports,drains are to allow the water to drain out. They are constantly getting bathed by a water shower.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1307:00 PM
[/quote] Tim, Watch the helicopter close ups in today's race, or go back and watch some replays. They essentially are grinding in a recessed tub. Those ports,drains are to allow the water to drain out. They are constantly getting bathed by a water shower. [/quote]
Ahhh, OK, thanks. That makes sense.
I didn't realize they had a 'bathtub' type of **** for the grinder's stations. I thought the inner part was open to the tramp, so they could move in and out easier, and the water would drain out through the netting. I've been watching the Oracle boat(s) today and I can see the crew jumping in an out of that deep well where the grinding stations are, no wonder they have scuppers! I wonder why they didn't just leave the inner wall off and move the tramp down a foot?
And...are we ever going to see any real racing? All this breakage is nutz!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1311:23 PM
So...when is the next race scheduled?
I hope these guys get their boats fixed and we actually get to see a full length, two boat race. Even my wife said how stupid it is to watch one boat race around the course alone, then postpone for -too much wind-.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1312:28 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Maybe the Mono guys were right?
Tim, You OK? First the scupper thing and now this. You musta took some bad acid. Did you ever watch the monos race it was all one big postponement, except when the boats were sinking. Personally, I hope it goes back to monos and takes Tucker and Andy with them. This shitshow of a circus doesn't deserve multihulls.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1301:15 AM
As much as I hate to say it, the "Best" America's Cup racing I ever saw was way back when DC first lost the Cup, and then again when he won it back. It was close -match racing- all the time, every race. That's what I'd like to see. The last time, the big Tri vs. big cat, was just a drag race.
I had high hopes for this one, but we have yet to see a really close race. Maybe when TNZ goes up against Oracle we might see some close racing...if they can keep the boats in one piece, and the wind stays below 19. (sigh, eyeroll)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1310:21 AM
From my perspective in the past it looked like they didn't try to be the fastest they just spent their time trying to get a technical foul under their wing then do a fun race which the NYYC then won in the court. The commentators would get all excited when there was about a mile between them on opposite tacks doing about 6 knots wondering if they would hit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1310:53 AM
I'm just amazed that they've been sailing these boats for months, and now, when they need to be fully 'up to speed', they are breaking, in every race!
Were they not pushing the boats hard enough during the months of practice, to expose weaknesses? Or were they pushing too hard, and now fatigue is starting to show up?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1312:09 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
I thought that until I threw in the towel on the droids and got the iPhone. It works SO much better, never crashes, never have to pull the battery, battery lasts longer, screen works better. My 4s was superior to my droid x2 in almost everyway.
Don't want to derail this thread too much but even die-hard android enthusiasts hated the X2. It was a hastily thrown together product with little to no aftermarket support from the manufacturer. I had three of them since they kept dying. The new androids (since ICS) are amazing, and 80% marketshare globally speaks for itself... (Apple only has 13%)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1312:15 PM
“We had an issue yesterday with a spectator boat and a mooring buoy that caused a little bit of damage to the daggerboard and a rudder,” Ainslie said. “We thought we fixed it – we raced yesterday and it wasn’t a problem.
“It’s a shame because we were having quite a nice prestart and it would have been a good race. I guess it’s a learning experience for us,” Ainslie said.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1301:56 PM
Back to New Zealand's stuffing...I think the foil angle did contribute to it by allowing them to foil so high that the rudder foil was too close to the surface. Once the rudder foil lost traction the boat simply teeters on the board. Once it pivots so far, the board goes from lifting to pulling down and "splash".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1302:51 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Back to New Zealand's stuffing...I think the foil angle did contribute to it by allowing them to foil so high that the rudder foil was too close to the surface. Once the rudder foil lost traction the boat simply teeters on the board. Once it pivots so far, the board goes from lifting to pulling down and "splash".
I guess that's possible, but then again the angle probably doesn't matter IF the rudder comes out of the water, it's going to pitch no matter what the angle was. If adjusting it would have kept the rudder in the water ,then maybe you could blame it on that.Look at how Ainslie's boat stood up when it lost it's rudder. That shows how much downforce they provide. I still think it was an issue of being way overpowered, Barker even called the gust right before the stuff. To expand a bit. makes you wonder if the "Battery problem" with the hydraulics doesn't stem from water intrusion ( shorting the battery) from the stuff. Just a theory.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1304:35 PM
In hind sight, wouldn't it have been much safer, and perhaps even minimized some of the breakage, if they had simply allowed foiling and allowed some type of adjustable elevator/flap on the foils to control their ride height, like the Moths and most other foiling boats are using?
Watching these guys learning to foil, with no control, is like watching the Wright Brothers learning to fly! And they crashed, a lot, until they figured out their elevator control system.
So now that we KNOW HOW to fly, why not just let them FLY!? With some CONTROL!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1305:32 PM
Well Timbo
The rules were specifically written to disallow foiling. One team figured out how to work around the rules that the defender was planning on working around before they were able to actually work around them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1306:50 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Well Timbo
The rules were specifically written to disallow foiling. One team figured out how to work around the rules that the defender was planning on working around before they were able to actually work around them.
Does that make sense?
I've long suspected that to be the case. The story being broadcast is that everyone was chasing NZ after they started foiling. However, from the very beginning I think the rule was written to make foiling very difficult but not impossible. I'm pretty sure Oracle had already planned to foil. If they REALLY wanted to disallow foiling, the rules would have been written that way. You could say something simple, like "no underwater foils should have horizontal components" and that would be the end of it. The thing that does surprise me is that Artemis was later to the foiling game than anyone else even though they were the challenger of record. They must have been caught by surprise on the foiling thing.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1306:51 PM
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1307:38 PM
what happened this time? I don't have access to watch it.
This makes me nervous that these guys get to work out these bugs before getting to race Oracle...I hope Oracle's maintenance program is top notch....but, errr, didn't they just have a rudder fall off?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1308:33 PM
They've been showing video clips of what happened when OTUSA-1 hit a buoy. Its amazing to see the difference between ETNZ and OTUSA stopping dead from being up on foils.
Oracle looked a lot less dramatic than ETNZ even with a chain hitting their foils.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1308:43 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Everybody has a day off to fix their $100,000,000 toys.
not to split hairs but i heard the 72's were $15,000,000 (each)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1308:44 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
IF the rudder comes out of the water, it's going to pitch no matter what the angle was.
I wonder if "blowing the boards" might prove effective if you start heading down the mine shaft.
Not that I would know if you can do this on these monsters, but would retracting the boards when you start the pitchpole have any effect at minimizing the dive? If indeed the foils are what start generating the negative lift...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1309:27 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I wonder if "blowing the boards" might prove effective if you start heading down the mine shaft.
Ya think they had time??
I agree - go frame by frame on ETNZ and look at the elapse time. It's only a 2 second window. Just barely enough time to kiss your butt goodbye and grab on tight... lol
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1309:41 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
I thought that until I threw in the towel on the droids and got the iPhone. It works SO much better, never crashes, never have to pull the battery, battery lasts longer, screen works better. My 4s was superior to my droid x2 in almost everyway.
Don't want to derail this thread too much but even die-hard android enthusiasts hated the X2. It was a hastily thrown together product with little to no aftermarket support from the manufacturer. I had three of them since they kept dying. The new androids (since ICS) are amazing, and 80% marketshare globally speaks for itself... (Apple only has 13%)
/thread-derail
Best Android phone right now is the HTC One. I'm using a HTC One X which is great but battery life is below average, a problem which was largely solved with the One.
I think the ETNZ nosedive didn't actually do that much damage to their boat, just some thin carbon sheets got torn up by the crew/water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/19/1310:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
America's Cup Fail. Couldn't find the broadcast before the race was over. Be nice if they posted where they planned to broadcast the show.
My DVR did pick up the races on NBC sports, but not the ones today. If you go to youtube, this site or the AC site to find the replay it seems like you always find out what happened before you watch it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/20/1301:03 AM
I got a chance to watch today's racing and I made note of a couple of things. NZ has command of their boat and are just light years ahead of LR. Coming around the top of the course, NZ nails the transition from reaching to running deep nearly every time. LR has a hard time staying on their foils. They have to heat back up and they immediately loose 30 to 100 meters. The second thing is that NZ seems to see the wind. They are just incredible in connecting the dots on the pressure.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/20/1304:05 AM
Updated Louis Vuitton Cup Final schedule (best-of-13 series)
Wednesday, Aug. 21: Final Race 4 (1:10 pm PT), Final Race 5 (2:10 pm PT) Friday, Aug. 23: Final Race 6 (TBD) Saturday, Aug. 24: Final Race 7 (1:10 pm PT), Final Race 8 (2:10 pm PT) Sunday, Aug. 25: Final Race 9 (1:10 pm PT), Final Race 10 (2:10 pm PT) Wednesday, Aug. 28: Final Race 11 (1:10 pm PT), Final Race 12 (2:10 pm PT) Friday, Aug. 30: Final Race 13 (1:10 pm PT)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/20/1312:24 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
They've been showing video clips of what happened when OTUSA-1 hit a buoy. Its amazing to see the difference between ETNZ and OTUSA stopping dead from being up on foils.
Oracle looked a lot less dramatic than ETNZ even with a chain hitting their foils.
I can't find the videos of them hitting the bouy. Can someone link it here? I'm getting spoiled by this one-stop shopping for all that is AC.
Wow, Gladwell is really taking his disdain for Team Oracle to the bank. Everyone does realize that it was less than 3 lbs of modification on one of the 45 foot boats and 5 lbs to the other, right?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1301:31 AM
"Unfortunately it was one of those bear aways where out leeward elevator pierced the surface at one stage. Once you lose the effect of that elevator which is basically holding the boat down you are effectively into an old school multihull bow down situation. It happened in an absolute blink of an eye. We have never had it happen before but that time the stars had aligned to give us that finger of God just as we got to the top mark."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1312:33 PM
I had a coworker lament about the current format. He doesn't know much about sailing but has watched some America's Cup sailing in the past. He came across it on the TV schedule so he dialed it up. Even though he's engineer-esque, the advanced technology was lost on him because he doesn't have a basis for comparison. From his perspective, the racing is boring - there are no sail changes, no spin poles breaking, and it's a one pony show. I tried my argument for the incredible technology and even dialed up a video of the NZ stuffing the other day. It was an opinion that I couldn't counter. Nope, not interested.
I thought it was an interesting (and probably a quite common) outsider opinion.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1312:48 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a coworker lament about the current format. He doesn't know much about sailing but has watched some America's Cup sailing in the past. He came across it on the TV schedule so he dialed it up. Even though he's engineer-esque, the advanced technology was lost on him because he doesn't have a basis for comparison. From his perspective, the racing is boring - there are no sail changes, no spin poles breaking, and it's a one pony show. I tried my argument for the incredible technology and even dialed up a video of the NZ stuffing the other day. It was an opinion that I couldn't counter. Nope, not interested.
I thought it was an interesting (and probably a quite common) outsider opinion.
See I had the opposite reaction from my non-sailing friend that I've gotten hooked on this AC. My friend Robert wants to buy a hobie now and is glued to his tablet watching every race... He's totally hooked on the speed and technology of the boats.
My friend Dave at work loves the thrill of disaster. He ate up the ETNZ nosedive and all he said was "The only thing that would have made that better is if they had wrecked!"
The only people that seem to be displeased with the racing so far - from my anecdotal observations - are sailors.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1301:33 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a coworker lament about the current format. He doesn't know much about sailing but has watched some America's Cup sailing in the past. He came across it on the TV schedule so he dialed it up. Even though he's engineer-esque, the advanced technology was lost on him because he doesn't have a basis for comparison. From his perspective, the racing is boring - there are no sail changes, no spin poles breaking, and it's a one pony show. I tried my argument for the incredible technology and even dialed up a video of the NZ stuffing the other day. It was an opinion that I couldn't counter. Nope, not interested.
I thought it was an interesting (and probably a quite common) outsider opinion.
Hate to say it but I'm in your coworkers camp on this one. It has been a one boat race and there is only so many times you can watch a boat do the same thing alone. There is no pre start engagment and it's follow the leader after that. The 45's was the event to watch, the LV has been a yawn.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1303:29 PM
Everything about the 45's was great to watch. The coverage, the overlays, the cameras stuck everywhere, it was awesomeness. I think watching sailing makes watching paint dry look exciting, but they nailed it. Had they been foiling I probably would've needed a moist towel after every event.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1303:45 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a coworker lament about the current format. He doesn't know much about sailing but has watched some America's Cup sailing in the past. He came across it on the TV schedule so he dialed it up. Even though he's engineer-esque, the advanced technology was lost on him because he doesn't have a basis for comparison. From his perspective, the racing is boring - there are no sail changes, no spin poles breaking, and it's a one pony show. I tried my argument for the incredible technology and even dialed up a video of the NZ stuffing the other day. It was an opinion that I couldn't counter. Nope, not interested.
I thought it was an interesting (and probably a quite common) outsider opinion.
Did you read today's Scuttlebutt? Ian Murry said pretty much the same thing, and that the AC 45's is where it should have stayed, for the AC, with many more challengers, it would have been much more 'fun' to watch, vs. one broken boat vs. another nearly broken boat, each taking turns sailing alone.
I don't think LE wanted too many other challengers though, too much chance of losing the cup! Right now, he's about the only one who can afford to race for it!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1304:03 PM
While we are all bitching I would like to add to the list the brilliant selection of NBCSport's Todd (I don't know diddly squat about sailboats but NBC suckered into my enlightening prose) Harris.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1304:10 PM
Think about 2010 cup. Same thing. Boring race accept for the one crossing at the windward mark, and Jimmy going into irons at the start. The rest of it was marveling in awesome technology. Remember everyone glued to the internet, watching a local San Diego web cam, as the unseen winged tri BMW/Oracle Godzilla cruised around in the bay?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
They've had 24+ hours to charge the stupid batteries. Lets hope they are ready to go.
They must have been so busy with the repair that they forgot to plug it in....but, heck, even my Tybee crews have a list of things to inspect and take care of every day.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1306:18 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
While we are all bitching I would like to add to the list the brilliant selection of NBCSport's Todd (I don't know diddly squat about sailboats but NBC suckered into my enlightening prose) Harris.
I thought they said earlier he had been involved with an AC awhile ago. Doesn't sound like it. He's pretty useless( like tits on a bull or a rubber beak on a woodpecker) and Tucker ain't much better and he has no excuse. Can them all except Ken Read and hire Nathan Outteridge full time, and maybe keep on Annie Gardener, she's fun ( Hmmmm.. what do they all ahve in common?). At least they would inform the uninformed with the proper terms and techniques instead of just spewing never-ending, space filling, verbal diarrhea. It's like they get their pay docked for any second of silence, so just say something even if it's wrong.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1306:26 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Everything about the 45's was great to watch. The coverage, the overlays, the cameras stuck everywhere, it was awesomeness. I think watching sailing makes watching paint dry look exciting, but they nailed it. Had they been foiling I probably would've needed a moist towel after every event.
You guys keep praising the 45s, but that was fleet and match racing. The 45 match racing was just as boring. Ahead at first mark gets the gun. The fleet racing was exciting because more boats creates more chance for confrontation. Personally I've stopped trying to pitch this AC to people. Ya either like it or you don't, and if you do it, you probably like it. My monohull sailing friends feed me crap about this AC like I was the one that set the format, probably because I'm one of the only multihull guys they know. Like I said before the AC is not ready for, or deserving of multihulls, not the other way around.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1306:39 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Racing has always been about who can write the biggest check. Doesn't matter what you are racing.
Wow Karl, now I see where the sh$t starts. Local winners in our parts haven't spent more than $500/year on the boat. They go out with a 5+ year old main, jib and spinnaker and whoop up on our sorry butts. Another case in point, Mischa winning with the not really stock but still old Tiger at 2010 Canadian Nationals. Take the best sailors in the world, throw them on a 5 year old boat and they will still kick your and my butt. I could go on but time on the water beats money thrown at the boat everyday. Please see LR vs. ETNZ, both equally funded teams, maybe ETNZ has more money. Who is winning and why; the base design package was the same.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1308:17 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Racing has always been about who can write the biggest check. Doesn't matter what you are racing.
Wow Karl, now I see where the sh$t starts. Local winners in our parts haven't spent more than $500/year on the boat. They go out with a 5+ year old main, jib and spinnaker and whoop up on our sorry butts. Another case in point, Mischa winning with the not really stock but still old Tiger at 2010 Canadian Nationals. Take the best sailors in the world, throw them on a 5 year old boat and they will still kick your and my butt. I could go on but time on the water beats money thrown at the boat everyday. Please see LR vs. ETNZ, both equally funded teams, maybe ETNZ has more money. Who is winning and why; the base design package was the same.
Equipment is just one part of the equation. Many of us on here have enough natural talent to compete at a top level, but time that could be spent honing those skills, or working with a trainer, or a dietitian, or a coach is wasted on making sure you've got a roof over your head slogging away at your job. Then there's all the expense of travel both domestically and internationally to make sure you're not the king of whatever sad little hill anyone calls home.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1309:00 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by P.M.
While we are all bitching I would like to add to the list the brilliant selection of NBCSport's Todd (I don't know diddly squat about sailboats but NBC suckered into my enlightening prose) Harris.
I thought they said earlier he had been involved with an AC awhile ago. Doesn't sound like it. He's pretty useless( like tits on a bull or a rubber beak on a woodpecker) and Tucker ain't much better and he has no excuse. Can them all except Ken Read and hire Nathan Outteridge full time, and maybe keep on Annie Gardener, she's fun ( Hmmmm.. what do they all ahve in common?). At least they would inform the uninformed with the proper terms and techniques instead of just spewing never-ending, space filling, verbal diarrhea. It's like they get their pay docked for any second of silence, so just say something even if it's wrong.
If they call NZ's mine shot a "dip" one more time...as in NZ's dip on Saturday...that just sounds stupid.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1309:28 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a coworker lament about the current format. He doesn't know much about sailing but has watched some America's Cup sailing in the past. He came across it on the TV schedule so he dialed it up. Even though he's engineer-esque, the advanced technology was lost on him because he doesn't have a basis for comparison. From his perspective, the racing is boring - there are no sail changes, no spin poles breaking, and it's a one pony show. I tried my argument for the incredible technology and even dialed up a video of the NZ stuffing the other day. It was an opinion that I couldn't counter. Nope, not interested.
I thought it was an interesting (and probably a quite common) outsider opinion.
See I had the opposite reaction from my non-sailing friend that I've gotten hooked on this AC. My friend Robert wants to buy a hobie now and is glued to his tablet watching every race... He's totally hooked on the speed and technology of the boats.
My friend Dave at work loves the thrill of disaster. He ate up the ETNZ nosedive and all he said was "The only thing that would have made that better is if they had wrecked!"
The only people that seem to be displeased with the racing so far - from my anecdotal observations - are sailors.
We aren't getting anything about the cup here in Australia
even well seasoned sailors aren't aware its even happening and they show little interest when informed....
to be perfectly honest, if it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't have the latest updates or have seen the vids that have been linked
Australia is "blind" as far as the cup goes ..... and yet I can watch the NASCAR live or on a days delay....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/21/1309:56 PM
I notice that when gybing, NZ keeps the new windward board down and feathers it up and down in the water, providing lift, until the boat is back up to full speed. They get it done in the time limit, but sometimes it is close to the limit (even over the time limit). Might be the holy grail to the perfect execution NZ constantly pulls off.
If it is over the time limit, think the umps will pick it up? I would think that the competing team is too busy to watch and time them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1311:57 AM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by bacho
Anyone else think those space suits make the LR guys look like they are on a bad movie set?
Not only that but the color and the boat always looks faked to the background. It's weird. I'm waiting for Godzilla to come up next to the boat.
I think it is the light from the suns reflection in the chrome wing.
It is. I was watching some of the racing last Saturday night with a good buddy who is a professional photographer and set designer. It is all the chrome that throws off the white balance so the background looks muted and disconnected. We had a good laugh about how the whole thing was all fake...like the moon landing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1304:15 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
LV Finals Race 6 will be sailed Friday Aug. 23. Start time of 13:10 PDT.
And I'll miss it, as I'll be on my way back to Dubai tomorrow, where it's only about 106 in the shade. If they do bring it to the UAE, I hope they plan on racing in February, not August!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1304:19 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Timbo
I wonder if the next cup will be held in Dubai?
If I remember correctly, Alinghi fought to have the 33rd AC in Dubai.
As I remember for a DOG match (AC33) it had to be sailed above a certain latitude and the middle east didn't qualify.
Since they've managed to change just about every other rule R.E. the A/C over the past 30 years, I don't see this one holding up either. The Emiratii are not throwing Millions into this for fun, they want the Whole World to come to Dubai.
But bring your own beer, they won't sell you any except at the Airport Duty Free or for $10 a pop in a bar, and if you walk around drunk, they'll put you in jail, for months.
Cross-dressing, public display of affection and wearing skimpy outfits are among behavioural violations not in consonance with local traditions and values. The Abu Dhabi police, through these ethics guidelines, has stayed clear of the grey areas and has made it easier for visitors to have a good time by spelling out what’s acceptable in the emirate and what is not.So risky behaviour is out and visitors are asked to shoulder some responsibility as Abu Dhabi draws more tourists from across the world to its cultural delights, history and sprawling beaches.
As you can see, cross dressing is out, so Ding, you'll have to stay home. And for the rest of you guys, do NOT hold hands with your wife, or kiss her in public.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1304:48 PM
"to refrain from using drugs and other psychotropic substances as they run contrary to the law. Alcohol should be consumed only in designated areas and driving under the influence of alcohol is an offence, says the brochure."
pretty much excludes our Spring Fever type regatta's from taking place there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1304:59 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
"to refrain from using drugs and other psychotropic substances as they run contrary to the law. Alcohol should be consumed only in designated areas and driving under the influence of alcohol is an offence, says the brochure."
pretty much excludes our Spring Fever type regatta's from taking place there.
Whadya mean? We only consume alcohol in a designated area... it's just a big area, Nigel's to the campground.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1305:49 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
It wasn't that RAK was ineligible to host the cup - it is. Its in the Northern hemisphere.
Its just that the DoG match HAD to take place in February and in order to do that, according to the DoG, it HAD to be in the southern hemisphere.
There was that and then there was that the event needed to be held "the sea or an arm of the sea". The debate was that the gulf didn't qualify as "an arm". There also is a seasonal (I think it's seasonal) requirement in the DoG and that's where the hemisphere thing came to light.
All this only matters if the challenger and the defender can't agree to the terms of the match. If they agree, they can run it pretty much any way they want (including having a multiple challenger series as has been done for several iterations).
Also don't forget that the country of New Zealand is also contributing financially to their team. I bet it would be hard for them to not have the event in New Zealand should they win this one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1307:43 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by P.M.
"to refrain from using drugs and other psychotropic substances as they run contrary to the law. Alcohol should be consumed only in designated areas and driving under the influence of alcohol is an offence, says the brochure."
pretty much excludes our Spring Fever type regatta's from taking place there.
Whadya mean? We only consume alcohol in a designated area... it's just a big area, Nigel's to the campground.
I was thinking more of the psychotropic abuse and the indecent behavior
It's just so easy to write some crap article like that on a blog. I could take some time to point out some of the glaring contradictions but I'll just stick with this one; he says LR should quit because of safety concerns and not because they won't win (even though the safety issues have been addressed...NZ just screwed up that rounding). He then goes on to justify this quitting maneuver because they have no chance to win. Tool.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/22/1308:51 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by P.M.
"to refrain from using drugs and other psychotropic substances as they run contrary to the law. Alcohol should be consumed only in designated areas and driving under the influence of alcohol is an offence, says the brochure."
pretty much excludes our Spring Fever type regatta's from taking place there.
Whadya mean? We only consume alcohol in a designated area... it's just a big area, Nigel's to the campground.
I was thinking more of the psychotropic abuse and the indecent behavior
Yeah, No help there... they've got us on that one.
It's just so easy to write some crap article like that on a blog. I could take some time to point out some of the glaring contradictions but I'll just stick with this one; he says LR should quit because of safety concerns and not because they won't win (even though the safety issues have been addressed...NZ just screwed up that rounding). He then goes on to justify this quitting maneuver because they have no chance to win. Tool.
I'd suspect Tom Fitzgerald is a tried and true loser with no fortitude ,whatsoever.Quit at everything he wasn't given. It'd be interesting to see his trophy case or lack thereof.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1311:55 AM
kristin and I just got back from SF and a visit to the LV Cup on Wednesday. Emirates 2 easy wins.
It's pretty clear from being there (AC Village on the Green) that the team with the best start (and hence) to the 1st mark first will walk away from the other.
Having said that, it's an awesome site to see these boats foil shooting past the grandstand at 35k (in only a 14k breeze)!!
Met up with Annie Gardner and Eric Witte. Annie does the play-by-play at the Village on the Green viewing area. She does a great job and had a guest Olympic sailor Molly Vandemoer helping with the color.
Also saw a youth practice sail on the AC45's .... Mathew Whitehead is sailing on one of the USA Red Bull AC45's !!
Unfortunately, no siting of Oracle's Larry Ellison. I'm still waiting for a reply from him on sponsoring our lil ol' boats with ORACLE supplied spinny's.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1312:51 PM
Artemis had way better starts the LR but this did not help them much. Boat handling is the name of the game at this event. If you can gain 2-300 yards on 1 jibe, tactics and match racing techniques are not really needed. The enclosed course makes this even more so. Once you get ahead it is not a big deal to let the other team split beacuse they can only go a little way.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1301:52 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
As you can see, cross dressing is out, so Ding, you'll have to stay home. And for the rest of you guys, do NOT hold hands with your wife, or kiss her in public.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1306:50 PM
Same deal. ESPN3 and virtual eye. Luna Rossa enters the pre-start on port tack today for Race 6 of the Louis Vuitton Cup Final. Today’s race is scheduled to begin at 1310 and can be viewed live in the U.S. on ESPN3, beginning at 1300. Internationally, the racing will be broadcast live on the America’s Cup YouTube channel, subject to territorial restrictions. The full race replay will be available on YouTube shortly after the conclusion of live racing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1307:39 PM
What are they planning for NBC Sports (old Versus)? My wife thinks she saw "Yachting" as a program title the other day, which is what they've used in the past for this type of stuff.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/23/1310:00 PM
You saw what dropping down off the foils for just a couple seconds did to LR yesterday. That's all it takes.
They may still be 'finding speed' but as mentioned earlier, I think the team that is most consistant will be the team ahead. Since ETNZ has now had some real racing practice, under real pressure, I think they'll be more consistant with their boat handling in the finals.
Has anyone been able to 'spy' on Oracle, see what kind of speeds they are doing, upwind and down? And how many perfect foil to foil gybes have they been able to pull off?
And Jay, I wish you would stop following me around with a camera when I go to the beach!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/24/1312:34 PM
"Almost incomprehensibly, Oracle then let him go. Team NZ made an offer and Melvin is in San Francisco with the Kiwis' huge design team as they work on enhancements to make their AC72 go even faster.
"Even in our own team, we had quite a debate about it [foiling]," says Melvin. "I guess some teams first thought they wouldn't be able to achieve stability and would just be wasting a lot of time."
He says teams are experimenting cautiously "as they don't want to spend too much time chasing rainbows. We are experimenting with it, so are Oracle and even Luna Rossa and we are making some ground."" Article: Pete Melvin
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/24/1305:38 PM
Final Races 7 and 8 scheduled 1:10pm PT.
Tune in to NBCSN at 7 pm ET for coverage of Final Races 7 and 8 which is tape delayed. Live coverage via the app or international (North Americas blacked out) via YouTube.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/25/1303:07 PM
New Zealand is going to win this thing after mastering multihulls like no one ever has. Just so they can return to lead sleds. That would be a sad, sad day for sailing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/25/1305:04 PM
Don't look Tad. "he's one of the world's most widely admired sportsmen . . . Barker is a Kiwi through and through, with the natural grace and humility that characterizes so many athletes from his country." Kiwi skipper Barker earning fans at America's Cup
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/25/1306:26 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
I wouldn't bet on NZL leaving the multihulls behind.
I love your optimism, or should we call it delerium? The leadership has been extremely clear about their intent.
Uncle Larry is our last and only hope to keep this on cats. I hope whatever he's doing to preserve his outside is being equalled on the inside, should they actually pull off a victory over ETNZ.
OH MY GOD! 7mm of difference in the king post length. I'm sure that adds 1 kagillion of (no) % of a performance improvement.. OK, fine, it's illegal, they've withdrawn already. Can this be over already?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/27/1312:38 PM
I'm too lazy to go back 20+ pages to find the TV schedule I posted here, for the AC Finals, anyone know what date the first race is? Sometime early in Sept. right? Is it around the 7th?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/27/1312:41 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I'm too lazy to go back 20+ pages to find the TV schedule I posted here, for the AC Finals, anyone know what date the first race is? Sometime early in Sept. right? Is it around the 7th?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/27/1301:01 PM
Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Timbo
I'm too lazy to go back 20+ pages to find the TV schedule I posted here, for the AC Finals, anyone know what date the first race is? Sometime early in Sept. right? Is it around the 7th?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/27/1304:07 PM
Ok, the report says that the king posts were 7 and 9 mm longer than regulation( the rest of the fleet). This article says that they were "four or five times longer"(Ballastgate). haven't seen any pics or measurements and am no math whiz, and no English whiz either, but doesn't that make the king posts on the other boats about 1 mm long, plus or minus 1mm?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/27/1304:49 PM
Originally Posted by azcat
Ok, the report says that the king posts were 7 and 9 mm longer than regulation( the rest of the fleet). This article says that they were "four or five times longer"(Ballastgate). haven't seen any pics or measurements and am no math whiz, and no English whiz either, but doesn't that make the king posts on the other boats about 1 mm long, plus or minus 1mm?
It's all just a media flurry right now. Now that the initial reaction is wearing off a little with the light that the modifications were really tiny and, quite possible, done without higher direction within Oracle, the opposition is starting to surmise that the kingpost mods mean Oracle was cheating in other areas. Other teams started scouring the Oracle boats in semi-secret. Oracle filed a protest at the unsportsmanlike like behavior (trespassing, etc.) against them but later withdrew it to "gain additional evidence". I hate this stuff. If the measurers had caught it earlier, this wouldn't have been as painful.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1301:24 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Timbo
I'm too lazy to go back 20+ pages to find the TV schedule I posted here, for the AC Finals, anyone know what date the first race is? Sometime early in Sept. right? Is it around the 7th?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1303:48 AM
'The New Zealand Government’s investment of $36 million in Emirates Team New Zealand’s campaign has been more than returned in direct tax revenue alone, not to mention the great profiling of New Zealand as a brand associated with world-leading technology,' says Busfield.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1312:02 PM
Originally Posted by tback
Yeah, I know, I'm in for Wildcat and Sarasota, if I can get the days off.
Ummm....days of from Delta or from the wifey? [/quote]
From Delta. We won't have our Oct. scheds published until about Sept. 15.
Right now Wildcat is safe, only because I'm flying over Labor Day weekend, so they really can't use me again for a few days afterwards, which should include Oct. 4-6, but the Sarasota thing is what I'll have to bid off for, and that might be tough to get now that most of the senior guys want all their weekends off to watch Football.
I may end up working every weekend in Oct, other than that first one, just like I'm working every Friday-Monday in Aug and Sept, 4 on, 3 off. Laying over in Dubai in the heat of Aug-Sept is Fun Fun!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1304:39 PM
The defender race was good to see. A few boat handling mistakes out there but overall, Spithill and Co did a very good job out there.
I agree though - things have been quiet. Not that I don't like meeting the team but how about some new sailing info as to what's going on currently... I can't wait to see the two teams line up in 10 days!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1304:42 PM
I'm sure the shore teams been working triple time - not only to keep boat 2 in top shape but also repair boat 1 now (again). Hopefully there wasn't too much structural damage to the rudder assembly. I would guess with the loads they are designed to handle - that isn't exactly a breakaway piece....
The Oracle camp has been extremely quiet lately, maybe because they're scared . . . . and should be.
Maybe they're sandbagging.
(I hope)
Or the time for bluster has ended and they are playing their cards tight to their chest. If I recall, that's the way it went down for the D.O.G. match against Alinghi. Not a lot of chatter. Of course coverage was a bit different too.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1305:18 PM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I'm sure the shore teams been working triple time - not only to keep boat 2 in top shape but also repair boat 1 now (again). Hopefully there wasn't too much structural damage to the rudder assembly. I would guess with the loads they are designed to handle - that isn't exactly a breakaway piece....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1305:34 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I'm sure the shore teams been working triple time - not only to keep boat 2 in top shape but also repair boat 1 now (again). Hopefully there wasn't too much structural damage to the rudder assembly. I would guess with the loads they are designed to handle - that isn't exactly a breakaway piece....
I thought it was boat#2 with the rudder problem?
Nope. Ainslie drives #1. That's the one that hit the mooring consequently later breaking the rudder.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1305:43 PM
Does these statements by Oracle's JK bother anybody?
"What particularly impresses you?
JK: Their jibing and their tacking. As you’ve seen, you can gain hundreds of meters in one jibe. They're very consistent out there. Probably we still have a ways to go to catch up to them in that.
Do you really think so?
JK: Yeah, I think so. In some conditions our consistency isn’t quite as good as theirs at the moment. They’ve had the same group of sailors for a long time. We have a big group here. Just recently we’ve gone with more of a racing team and a back-up team, splitting that onto the two boats, so we’re still learning each day when we’re out together. That’s a little bit of a factor. I’m not saying we can’t get there, we still have up to seven more sailing days. Hopefully, we’ll do a few two-boat days also."
With only 7 more sailing days to go, they are still trying to work on their consistency? Meanwhile, ETNZ is working on foiling upwind and down, they perfected their consistency a long time ago!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/28/1307:02 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I'm sure the shore teams been working triple time - not only to keep boat 2 in top shape but also repair boat 1 now (again). Hopefully there wasn't too much structural damage to the rudder assembly. I would guess with the loads they are designed to handle - that isn't exactly a breakaway piece....
I thought it was boat#2 with the rudder problem?
Nope. Ainslie drives #1. That's the one that hit the mooring consequently later breaking the rudder.
I think I got confused on #1...the primary boat. I see that #2 means the primary (newest) boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/1303:53 AM
Having seen OTUSA vids of them working on going upwind - I'm sure JK is playing some of this close to the chest.
As was said - race 1 will very quickly determine where these two teams stack up. I've been very impressed with ETNZ and only hope Oracle can give them a run out there....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/1301:18 PM
I'm hoping BOTH teams are sandbagging a little, and we'll see the "gloves come off" in a week.
Once ENTZ found out they could run rings around the other challengers, I suspect they backed off the bleeding edge: (1) to preserve the boat, (2) to focus on boathandling and transitions (3) to keep a little in reserve in case OTUSA is hiding something
If ENTZ and LR (or Artemis) were closer in performance, I'd think there might have been more aggressive pre-start jockeying and boat-boat tactics.
What's a shame (besides the fact I'm not a billionaire) is that ENTZ can't take the ITA and SWE boats/teams and practice with them a few more days before the finals... I guess they'll just be left with 2-boat sailing.
What would be even cooler (if the boats were closer matched) would be to see some sort of fleet-race when this is done. Of course, that may be the ultimate death-match with boats all over the course and closing speeds approaching 90 mph...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/1301:25 PM
I too would love to see some fleet racing, but with the size, speed (safety in a collision) and most importantly MONEY involved, I doubt we'd ever see that with these boats. As I said a few months back, I think the most "Exciting" racing we'll see was the AC45 fleet racing way back when...
I'm looking forward to watching the Yutes race the AC 45's in fleet racing!
Go Mat!
And does anyone know if the Alter Cup will get any TV time, since the camera boats and helicopters are already in place, I'm hoping NBC Sports might put some of that on TV as well.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/1306:19 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I'm hoping BOTH teams are sandbagging a little, and we'll see the "gloves come off" in a week.
Once ENTZ found out they could run rings around the other challengers, I suspect they backed off the bleeding edge: (1) to preserve the boat, (2) to focus on boathandling and transitions (3) to keep a little in reserve in case OTUSA is hiding something
If ENTZ and LR (or Artemis) were closer in performance, I'd think there might have been more aggressive pre-start jockeying and boat-boat tactics.
What's a shame (besides the fact I'm not a billionaire) is that ENTZ can't take the ITA and SWE boats/teams and practice with them a few more days before the finals... I guess they'll just be left with 2-boat sailing.
What would be even cooler (if the boats were closer matched) would be to see some sort of fleet-race when this is done. Of course, that may be the ultimate death-match with boats all over the course and closing speeds approaching 90 mph...
The Italians agreed to continue to be a training partner to ETNZ until the cup matches.
Well he got this part right: "Molehill turns into a Mountain The Hearings bring to a close what should have been a minor measurement incident that has escalated into the most serious form of disciplinary Hearing in the sport. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/1306:49 PM
“We’ve done it boys,” and I think most of us had a tear roll down our cheeks as we really had done something that all of us thought was almost certainly impossible. Not impossible emotionally, but impossible practically. The thing was such a huge challenge and on top of the emotional challenge that we felt. I keep saying to people, “Those who didn’t go through that period with us inside Artemis Racing will never understand the mountain it was that we climbed."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1311:04 AM
“Adverse current is helping downwind because the conveyer belt is moving against the wind and increasing the apparent windspeed the boat feels. Windspeed is king in the AC72. Increasing the windspeed makes up for the adverse current.”
If one of the crews wants to hydrofoil upwind they’ll be looking to avoid adverse current because it slows the apparent windspeed. The jury’s still out as to the benefits up upwind hydrofoiling, but Emirates Team New Zealand tactician Ray Davies thinks it’ll occur.
“It’s almost routine now,” said Davies. “I’d expect it to play a role in the Cup.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1305:31 PM
I haven't read the article yet, but this is on a tech blog that I frequent all the time... Lets just say that I don't agree with 90% of their opinions but the writing is usually pretty good...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1306:31 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I haven't read the article yet, but this is on a tech blog that I frequent all the time... Lets just say that I don't agree with 90% of their opinions but the writing is usually pretty good...
Don't bother reading it. I just wasted a minute of my life I can't get back.
I think a better story using the "Death Race" title would be to look at all the other amateur sailors who have lost their life this past year. There was just another one lost.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1308:21 PM
Quote
99. Pursuant to Protocol Article 15.4(d)(iv), OTUSA shall be penalised one point for each of the first two races of the Match in which they would otherwise score a point.
Wait a second.
This means that ETNZ is effectively starting the match with a 2 race lead?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1308:54 PM
no.... it gives NZL two practice races to try out their stuff against Oracles best shot. If they bank a win.... they are on their way 1 to zip... if NZL loses.... the score remains... zero zero.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1309:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
no.... it gives NZL two practice races to try out their stuff against Oracles best shot. If they bank a win.... they are on their way 1 to zip... if NZL loses.... the score remains... zero zero.
Clever penalty!
Yup. It will (hopefully) extend the series if Oracle comes out winning. Since it is a best of 17 series, it would stop with 9 wins. Oracle now needs 11 wins to take it. NZL needs 9. Oracle is racing for zeros in the first two races. The best they can do is keep the score at zero.
The read through the decision was interesting and I can see the level of wrong doing given ETNZ's report about kingpost length and how it relates to head stay tension...it could be a significant mod. I still think the penalty is a bit harsh, but in the end, I don't think it's going to matter. One team is going to have a clear advantage and the other team is going to have a hard time keeping them from scoring bullet after bullet.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1310:09 PM
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
no.... it gives NZL two practice races to try out their stuff against Oracles best shot. If they bank a win.... they are on their way 1 to zip... if NZL loses.... the score remains... zero zero.
Clever penalty!
I must have missed something while I was in Dubai. Last I heard, the "Issue" was about 5lbs. and a center post that was 7mm too long...on one of Oracle's AC45 boats?
And for that, they are going to be penalized two points, in the AC 72 Regatta??
Or am I mixing two completely different infractions together?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1310:20 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
no.... it gives NZL two practice races to try out their stuff against Oracles best shot. If they bank a win.... they are on their way 1 to zip... if NZL loses.... the score remains... zero zero.
Clever penalty!
I must have missed something while I was in Dubai. Last I heard, the "Issue" was about 5lbs. and a center post that was 7mm too long...on one of Oracle's AC45 boats?
And for that, they are going to be penalized two points, in the AC 72 Regatta??
Or am I mixing two completely different infractions together?
You've got the gist of it.
ETNZ claims that this change resulted in something like a 15% better pointing ability and an 8% tighter jib luff or other such nonsense.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1311:05 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I wonder if there is a path for appeal or was this absolute?
The decision of a properly constituted international jury cannot be appealed. See RRS 70.5.
There might be further penalties yet to come. When a jury imposes a penalty under Rule 69, it must promptly report doing so to the national authority (and in this case, ISAF). US Sailing and ISAF may take further action against the penalized sailors.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1311:09 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
no.... it gives NZL two practice races to try out their stuff against Oracles best shot. If they bank a win.... they are on their way 1 to zip... if NZL loses.... the score remains... zero zero.
Clever penalty!
I must have missed something while I was in Dubai. Last I heard, the "Issue" was about 5lbs. and a center post that was 7mm too long...on one of Oracle's AC45 boats?
And for that, they are going to be penalized two points, in the AC 72 Regatta??
Or am I mixing two completely different infractions together?
There is a clause in the cup rules that gives the jury the ability to penalize for conduct that tarnishes the image of the cup. This was ironically put in place by Oracle to keep Grant Dalton (ETNZ) from publicly talking badly about the cup as he was prone to do in the past. ETNZ's protest argued that the modifications to the AC45 by Oracle was negative publicity and that allowed the penalty to carry beyond the withdrawal Oracle had already made from all previous AC45 events. That's why the penalty has carried over to the 72s.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1312:20 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
I wonder if there is a path for appeal or was this absolute?
The decision of a properly constituted international jury cannot be appealed. See RRS 70.5.
There might be further penalties yet to come. When a jury imposes a penalty under Rule 69, it must promptly report doing so to the national authority (and in this case, ISAF). US Sailing and ISAF may take further action against the penalized sailors.
Regards, Eric
None of the sailors affected were US; their respective MNAs have been notified as noted in the jury decision. US Sailing is not involved with this one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1304:09 AM
IJ decisions cannot be appealed, but can be subject to a request for redress or request to re-open (I've witnessed a full week of hearings over one incident). I wouldn't expect to see that in this case, but you never know.
I will never, ever accept that no one else knew. There is just no way that that happens because of a trimmer, without the skipper knowing. There's no way it happens to three boats without multiple skippers knowing.
While in some ways, the whole thing has been blown out of proportion (the changes probably didn't matter for performance, and it was a regatta that absolutely didn't matter except for bragging rights); if the jury was going to take the time to get this serious, and use the language that they did ("inconceivable" that no one else knew), they really caved by not seeing this through to the top.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1304:36 AM
This is getting beyond "Stupid"!
They should fine LE a bazillion dollars for what ever "improved performance" 5lbs. and 7mm makes to a 45' cat, but what has anything done to boats in the 45' regatta, months ago, got to do with the America's Cup Regatta, btw, held in completely different boats??
And have any of these -tools- measured the two AC 72 boats prior to the start of the AC regatta?
Or are they (again) going to wait until it's over?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1312:07 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
...
Yet they wonder why nobody watches this crap....
And that's why the penalty. It's impacted the image of the event. I might argue that the gigantic public proclamations the competitors made and the trial itself had more to do with tarnishing the image of the event but it is hard to argue that the modifications made weren't the reason all of this happened to begin with.
I'm a bit undecided on this whole thing...the mods really weren't THAT big of a deal - but why in the hell would you do something like that? The event really didn't matter in the larger scheme of things. I guess there are some people that just aren't happy with being really good at what they do. That competitive nature erodes their better judgement.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1301:27 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
This is getting beyond "Stupid"!
They should fine LE a bazillion dollars for what ever "improved performance" 5lbs. and 7mm makes to a 45' cat, but what has anything done to boats in the 45' regatta, months ago, got to do with the America's Cup Regatta, btw, held in completely different boats??
And have any of these -tools- measured the two AC 72 boats prior to the start of the AC regatta?
Or are they (again) going to wait until it's over?
Yet they wonder why nobody watches this crap....
Reality TV at it's best! I think everyone will watching Saturday. After that?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1301:32 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
This is getting beyond "Stupid"!
They should fine LE a bazillion dollars for what ever "improved performance" 5lbs. and 7mm makes to a 45' cat, but what has anything done to boats in the 45' regatta, months ago, got to do with the America's Cup Regatta, btw, held in completely different boats??
And have any of these -tools- measured the two AC 72 boats prior to the start of the AC regatta?
Or are they (again) going to wait until it's over?
Yet they wonder why nobody watches this crap....
Reality TV at it's best! I think everyone will watching Saturday. After that?
Well, I'll be there for three days of racing. Here's hoping that its either a blowout in Oracle's favor or its close racing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1301:32 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
.the mods really weren't THAT big of a deal
Cheating is cheating. If it wasn't that big of a deal, they shouldn't have done it in the first place.
I agree that the guillotine might be a little harsh, but it does make you wonder what else is going on that no one has caught yet...
I love the people on TV saying that they "were sorry they did..." whatever. Bulls**t: you're sorry you got CAUGHT doing whatever.
Look, we all should understand there is no such thing as a fair fight, even with SMOD. Those that feel their skills need help will find ways to bend rules to their favor (until they get called out on it). With this much $$ in the AC game, it's bound to happen. And this happens in pretty much every sport you can think of.... F1, NASCAR, Baseball, Cricket, and even (dare I say it) Flip Cup.
I suspect the judges will be paying a little closer attention to the boats (and the cheaters - if there are any - will find new ways to hide stuff).
Who knows, this penalty on OTUSA might actually put a little drama back into the Cup series. Can they overcome this penalty, or will ENTZ ride all over them?
I like OTUSA and ENTZ about equally (the rabid fans of either, not so much) and would love to see a close fought series going down to the wire.
There are some truly awesome sailors, designers, and composite folk on those teams and it's a pleasure to follow their progress.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1302:15 PM
I guess I don't really see the penalty as having much affect. I'd be very surprised if it comes down to the last race as being the deciding race. Chances are it will be pretty much a blowout with one team taking almost all the races. I think Oracle is better prepared than either Luna Rossa, or Artemis, and I like to think that they've got a chance, but that's all speculation until they actually line up against Emirates.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1302:40 PM
I agree, the 2 races probably is not going to make a real difference. I believe there will be a real difference between the teams and the results will heavily favor one team.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1304:00 PM
Underdogs? Really? These people should just be embarrassed. They are the defenders, and have Uncle Larry's war chest. To lose to a one-boat, shoestring-budget team will be completely reprehensible. To have cheated along the way virtually assures that LE's name will forever be tarnished in AC history. To have the gall to appeal to the masses as underdogs is disgusting.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1304:50 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Underdogs? Really? These people should just be embarrassed. They are the defenders, and have Uncle Larry's war chest. To lose to a one-boat, shoestring-budget team will be completely reprehensible. To have cheated along the way virtually assures that LE's name will forever be tarnished in AC history. To have the gall to appeal to the masses as underdogs is disgusting.
Mike
Personally, I don't think this cheating went to any high level...if it did, the work would have been much more refined and it would have been done a whole lot better. Sportsmanship aside, even if it had gone to some higher level for someone that didn't care about cheating, SOMEONE would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio and make a quick and easy determination that the modification isn't worth the risk. At the very least, the evidence would not have been left after they turned the boat over to the event authority so it could be accidentally discovered by the event staff who are assembling the boats. I'm just sayin'.
I think the penalty was harsh but in light of personnel intentionally lying to a jury, they should be fried. I have a real beef with that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1305:26 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Underdogs? Really? These people should just be embarrassed. They are the defenders, and have Uncle Larry's war chest. To lose to a one-boat, shoestring-budget team will be completely reprehensible. To have cheated along the way virtually assures that LE's name will forever be tarnished in AC history. To have the gall to appeal to the masses as underdogs is disgusting.
Mike
I'm not sure ETNZ is that much of a shoestring budget team. They built 2 boats, and brought in one of, if not the best multi-hull design team in the world. Hint hint, they paid for the team that wrote the AC72 rule to design their boat and resulted in the first fully foiling AC72.
No, they can't afford, or decided against hiring a second sailing team to run their second boat around the course. In many ways I think this was a prudent decision. Boat #1 can be used for spares to keep boat #2 up and running on short order, and the team can be fully committed to boat #2. Oracle has stated on multiple occasions it's very exhaustive keeping a 2 boat program on the water.
I don't think Oracle are that handicapped going into this, they've obviously mixed their sailing team up in the past and they can do it again. Loosing their main wing trimmer was a blow, but their backup has plenty of AC72 experience under his belt.
I do think the decision was a bit harsh, for a relatively minor measurement violation but if you notice the guys that cooperated with the Jury got off fairly scotch free and those that didn't or were otherwise found responsible for the whole mess got the shaft. Still, to think the helmsman on all 3 boats were unaware is a bit of b.s, though perhaps Ben Ainslie wasn't notified considering it was a chartered ride.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1307:15 PM
Race 8 cancelled. RBYAC is history. RBYAC Final results: 1) NZ2 57 pts, 2) NZ1 45, 3) POR 44, 4) SUI 43, 5) US1 42, 6) SWE 39, 7) AUS 38, 8) FRA 37, 9) GER 30, 10) US2 15
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1308:41 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
This is getting beyond "Stupid"!
They should fine LE a bazillion dollars for what ever "improved performance" 5lbs. and 7mm makes to a 45' cat, but what has anything done to boats in the 45' regatta, months ago, got to do with the America's Cup Regatta, btw, held in completely different boats??
And have any of these -tools- measured the two AC 72 boats prior to the start of the AC regatta?
Or are they (again) going to wait until it's over?
Yet they wonder why nobody watches this crap....
Reality TV at it's best! I think everyone will watching Saturday. After that?
Well, I'll be there for three days of racing. Here's hoping that its either a blowout in Oracle's favor or its close racing.
Looks like the wind forecast for Saturday is for 8kt. Possibly displacement mode races. Would stink to go all the way out there and not see a foiling race. However, more drama.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1312:24 AM
"96. The Jury has no intention to impose a penalty that will determine the outcome of the Match, which should best be determined on the water and not in the Jury room. But for these mitigating factors the penalty would have been heavier."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1304:46 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
IJ decisions cannot be appealed, but can be subject to a request for redress or request to re-open...
A party may request that a hearing be reopened within 24 hours if protest committee made a significant error or if significant new evidence becomes available (RRS 66), but may not request redress. See RRS 62.1(a) "request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection committee or measurement committee for the event, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the hearing"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1312:18 PM
You've just pointed out that there is a case for redress...
Paralympic Trials, Newport, winners sent to China. Redress hearings every night, all week, for an issue that occurred in Day 1. Each time the results were posted/updated, another filing was submitted.
Granted, that was the same Quad as Hall, so there have been lots of procedural changes since then, but there is still a window.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1306:47 PM
The one question I found interesting was when JS was asked whether they would be using a hard wing jib instead of a soft one. My connection to the web isn't very good at work so I'm not completely sure if I saw it right, check out the facial expressions.
I find it hard to believe the MC would miss anything when issuing a certificate to OR at this point. This more like a protest against the MC. The MC will have to show why OR is legal. Could be a back door way of finding out how the OR system works.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/06/1308:01 AM
On the news I heard that De Ridder denied that he is guilty of cheating and will appeal the jury decision. Apparently he can go to the CAS court of arbitration in Swiss.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/06/1305:25 PM
At this point, with a measurement cert in hand, unless they can prove modifications were made after the boat was measured, I'd tell them to settle it on the water. They already have a 2-loss cushion (which I doubt they need), so what is the point now?
ETNZ just gave us a reason to root against them...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/06/1306:12 PM
Quote
ETNZ just gave us a reason to root against them...
In addition to the main reason to root against them - that if they win, they'll return the America's Cup to stone age technology. Boring, slow, lumbering lead-haulers that wouldn't get a nonsailor interested in the sport even if it shat $100 bills out the stern?
That's a great interview with Geno Morelli! Lots of insight as to how the foiling came to be. Here I'd been thinking it was LE and Oracle who were trying to put a stop to it, when in reality it was Mascalzone Latino!
As he said in the interview, if they'd just been allowed to use articulating rudders, like with the Moths, they'd be able to (safely) go even faster! I found his comments about the soft sails only being 1-2% slower enlightening, and he also mentions the huge cost and manpower required just for the 35 man Wing Team! I agree with him, they should go back to soft sails and forget the wind limits!
But I think Larry made a huge mistake by not signing M+M as his design team! And I think he's going to find that out tomorrow.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/06/1309:06 PM
I didn't want to mention that again...
There are numerous quotes in the media from very high up at ETNZ stating that they hate having the AC on cats, and will return to monohulls if they win. Time will tell if they've changed their minds.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1312:57 AM
Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm not convinced ETNZ will go back to lead-haulers. Please show me the quote where key team members specifically state that?
I don't have the time to do your homework for you ,but if you go back to when ETNZ first committed there were a couple of interviews where it was stated by Grant Dalton that it would go back to monos. Dig around you'll find them. I saw them in the AC thread on S.A. and apparently there are newer quotes saying high tech monohulls (TP 52 style ?) with nationality rules, haven't seen those myself though.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1304:42 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
You've just pointed out that there is a case for redress...
Paralympic Trials, Newport, winners sent to China. Redress hearings every night, all week, for an issue that occurred in Day 1. Each time the results were posted/updated, another filing was submitted.
Granted, that was the same Quad as Hall, so there have been lots of procedural changes since then, but there is still a window.
That's why US Sailing added the prescriptions to rules 60 and 63.2. If protest committee does their job right, there should only be one redress hearing.
Either way, though, a party to a hearing may not request for the decision of that hearing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1302:53 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
The key is, they need to be a party. This creates a potential loophole which I'd say still exists.
And, the prescriptions only help if used (there are three ways out of that)...
If a boat requests to participate in a redress hearing under prescription 60, then I consider that boat to be a party.
The prescriptions can be deleted in sailing instructions, and many events do so (because protest committees think they are too much effort). I personally think they should be left in place - to avoid precisely the situation you described. And yes, I've seen it happen too.
Also, as a result of the Hall decision, in Olympic qualifying events any PC decision (even international juries) can be appealed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1306:06 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I wonder what the cost getting to this point is for both teams?
Saw a tweet today that said ETNZ's budget was €70m. One third public is funds, one third sponsors, and one third donations. Fifty percent of the cost is personnel.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1307:29 PM
Quote
“You always go to a regatta and they say it’s never like this here, well that’s what it’s like today,” said Regatta Director Iain Murray at his morning briefing. “The good news is the westerly has started to prevail under the Golden Gate Bridge. It’s probably 6 knots now, and has pushed the northwest and easterly winds into the back country back. We’re hoping for around 12 knots at the start of the first race and we’re confident that when the flow gets going and established we might get 17 knots in the second race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1308:56 PM
It looked to me like Jimmy was pinching, and Dean was footing. Their speeds were about 2kts apart, going up that beat but you saw Oracle pointing a little higher, going slower.
Of course, when you are out in front in a two boat race, you would want to foot down to cover your opponent, which is exactly what Barker was doing, and tacked right on top of them.
Still, it was great to see some very good, fast, close racing for the first 3 legs!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1310:08 PM
How was there no foul in race 2? There was contact, therefore there must be a foul. Funny how Jobson is saying that no one thought NZ was faster. I guess he doesn't read Catsailor.com.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1310:14 PM
I don't think anyone out side of Oracle's team knew just how fast Oracle really was, since they weren't putting out their performance numbers, while we were able to see ETNZ's numbers in the LVT cup.
But now we know who's got the faster boat.
And I agree with you on the start of race 2, should have been a penalty to ETNZ, but even so, they won by a big enough margin that if they'd been penalized, I think they are fast enough to have come from behind to win that one anyway.
It's going to be a short series if Oracle can't squeeze more speed out of their boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1310:16 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
And what they should have done right after that cross was to tack, and push ETNZ out to the side boarder, and trap them, force them to follow Oracle back to the gate, in bad air.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1311:19 PM
Originally Posted by hobiephil
How was there no foul in race 2? There was contact, therefore there must be a foul. Funny how Jobson is saying that no one thought NZ was faster. I guess he doesn't read Catsailor.com.
There was no contact. Oracle got the hook on ETNZ and luffed - to the extent she could limited by RRS 15 (Acquiring Right of Way) and 16.1 (Changing Course). ETNZ immediately responded to the luff to the extent she could at low speed and nearly head to wind, so no foul.
It's a pretty standard match racing call (MR Call B3 in the ISAF Match Racing Call Book).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1312:24 AM
You can't tell from the helicopter shot. The wing ump is visible, but the primary ump would be directly behind Oracle (if they were positioned properly) and would be able to see the gap between the boats. If they saw contact, they would have called for a penalty.
These boats don't touch without leaving marks on each other. There's bound to be a photo / video of ETNZ's port quarter after the incident - I didn't notice anything watching the race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1312:29 AM
Def contact out there. Surprised to see no penalty..
We will see what happens tomorrow. Going to be a long night tonight evaluating the numbers and watching the video... Gotta find a little speed. I thought they were really there race 1 but were a solid knot or 2 slow in race 2.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1301:25 AM
Originally Posted by mbounds
The wing ump is visible, but the primary ump would be directly behind Oracle (if they were positioned properly) and would be able to see the gap between the boats.
The only umpire out there (wing or primary) was 70 feet from the contact, off the starboard transom of NZ. Impossible for the umpire in that boat to see contact. There was not another umpire boat anywhere in sight. Probably why they didn't rule was they couldn't see it, if it happened.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1303:27 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
Based only on how ETNZ made everyone else look like amateurs to this point, I'll call for a sweep.
I'll happily be proven wrong later today.
Mike
OK, maybe tomorrow?????
Not if OR doesn't figure out how to stop ETNZ from their favorite play in the book, which has won them every race (starting at least as far back as the LV finals): start high and roll the competition all the way to a Mark 1 lead.
The only reason Race 1 was as close as it was, was the unforced error in rounding the first gate. For some odd reason, ETNZ was really pinching and gave up their entire lead. They then got lucky that OR did such a poor job of match racing them up the rest of the beat, giving back the lead.
In the Race 2 start, I didn't think there was contact, either, just from watching the video. And keep in mind, one of the first things you learn in judging is, photo and video evidence is hard to believe most times. Angles and depth of field can really cause things to look much different than they really are.
I really hope this goes longer than 9 races, if for no other reason than I don't want the next 7 to be anywhere near as boring as Race 2...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1312:15 PM
I had to turn off the sound. How many time can they say "already 2 races down". Sounded like a skipping record. And the best part of the race(first part of the beat to weather)when all the passing takes place, THEY ARE ON COMMERCIAL!!!! UTube coverage was better. And whats with everyone racing against NZL letting them have the windward side of the start line. EVERY time they start there they drive over the other boat. TAKE A HINT.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1301:14 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
I had to turn off the sound. How many time can they say "already 2 races down". Sounded like a skipping record. And the best part of the race(first part of the beat to weather)when all the passing takes place, THEY ARE ON COMMERCIAL!!!! UTube coverage was better.
Amen. Wake up NBC. Take the commercials between races. YouTube saved it for me also, although at times it was lagged a little behind the NBC feed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1301:43 PM
This has happened before, I want to say the last time it was on monos. They need to realize that these races are continuous. Commercials are necessary, but they should take NASCAR's lead and run the race on a partial screen during commercials.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1302:19 PM
The NBC Nit Wits went to commercial, and when they came back Oracle had passed! I was screaming at the TV! Finally saw it in the replay, but yeah, how about 30 minutes of "commercial free" you NBC Clowns!?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1302:23 PM
I think it was Ken Read who in the pre-race was chatting and said something like, "In a two boat race, the faster boat always wins."
As we saw, all ETNZ has to do is go straight, and let their boat speed carry them away. It's up to Oracle to get in front of them, and at least try to dump some bad wind on them, but in both starts, Jimmy tried to hook them and luff them into a foul. That might win the start, but won't work, long term.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1304:58 PM
I hate to agree with the naysayers, but now that we've had one reasonably close race, it's obvious that the course sucks for match racing. Only one upwind leg makes it way too easy to stay ahead once there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1309:47 PM
There you go! Lets see if Oracle can make this a race! Nice job finding pressure JK and jimmy worried about racing the boat and course and less about covering every tack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1309:54 PM
Is it me or do you guys see Oracles lee bow in the water all the time, going upwind? I watch ETNZ's bow, vs. OR's, and ETNZ's is up a good foot out of the water going upwind, while Oracle's seems to be stuck in the water most of the upwind legs.
When I got a good look at ETNZ's hulls, it seems they have a lot more rocker and their bow's are pointed up more, and flatter across the bottoms. That may help explain why their bow is usually up, while Oracle's is in the water.
Nice wheelie ETNZ pulled in that last race, I wonder what caused that? I think it did cost them the race, certainly didn't help!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1312:09 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Is it me or do you guys see Oracles lee bow in the water all the time, going upwind? I watch ETNZ's bow, vs. OR's, and ETNZ's is up a good foot out of the water going upwind, while Oracle's seems to be stuck in the water most of the upwind legs.
When I got a good look at ETNZ's hulls, it seems they have a lot more rocker and their bow's are pointed up more, and flatter across the bottoms. That may help explain why their bow is usually up, while Oracle's is in the water.
Nice wheelie ETNZ pulled in that last race, I wonder what caused that? I think it did cost them the race, certainly didn't help!
They seemed to be able to sail higher and as fast with the bow down. Looks like OR is starting to settle down.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1312:13 AM
I agree 100% on Oracle burying the leeward hull upwind. I saw it yesterday in the first two races and you can tell the extra drag isn't helping. They were a solid 1-1.5knts slower yesterday upwind.
I did hear that Oracle went through a setup change that went through the measurement cert for class rule so wondering what was changed? It would seem that a re-cert might indicate more serious changes (daggerboard/foil/rudder/weigh/etc) vs just a setup. Seemed to show today as even in the first race - Oracle was showing even to slightly better speed today. Pleasant surprise to see the boat fast in the higher winds too.
Still - you can see the boat handling difference between the two. ETNZ is still more consistent. Upwind in the second race - Oracle had actually pulled a decent 100+ on NZ 2 tacks in only to give it all back with a slow cover. Same thing coming into mark 4 downwind. Silly late tack and gave up 150+.
Great racing though and a pleasant surprise over the LV Cup which had me worried. I want Oracle to win but honestly - just hoping to see them battle to the end so we all get to see some more great racing. These boats a great to watch out there!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1303:48 AM
Interesting that JK and JS did not alter their starting strategy. I don't know if they got better or just lucky that ETNZ weren't as fast as they'd had been off the line coming over the top.
Great to finally see an Oracle win. These were probably the best two races to watch to date.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1304:04 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
Not if OR doesn't figure out how to stop ETNZ from their favorite play in the book, which has won them every race (starting at least as far back as the LV finals): start high and roll the competition all the way to a Mark 1 lead.
. . . unless your competition has some boat speed and can successfully luff you up (twice). Not such a great position after all now is it?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1305:08 AM
Wow.. Just wow..
I'm just getting back from some of the best most exciting sailboat racing I've ever watched. The atmosphere in the grandstands was amazing and at the end of race two I was high fiving total strangers like I was at a college football game. The people cheering, the close racing, the huge crowds and great weather all combined for an amazing experience. If I fall in front a city bus tomorrow, This trip has been totally worth every dime I paid just for today's experience.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1301:26 PM
Boy, did Oracle nail the start in R4 yesterday or what?
Oracle is faster in breeze as long as they don't tack any more than necessary. I think they had their VMG angles a little screwy in the first couple of races but it may have been the more moderate breeze that exposed some weakness in boat speed. It still blows my mind that these guys are hung over from mono-hull race tactics after all of this time - I'm watching Oracle in R3 wondering what they were doing by initiating that tacking duel when they had the advantage as tacking only introduces more risk (unless you are certain that you are not going to hang onto your lead and the risk is warranted). In the first race, race #3, yesterday, Oracle seemed desperate upwind and initiated the tacking duel that did them in quickly. As some of you noted here, they're also struggling to keep the bow out of the water when tacking...which is a bit strange. It will be interesting to see if they can put up a similar fight in more moderate breeze.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1301:27 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm not convinced ETNZ will go back to lead-haulers. Please show me the quote where key team members specifically state that?
I don't have the time to do your homework for you ,but if you go back to when ETNZ first committed there were a couple of interviews where it was stated by Grant Dalton that it would go back to monos. Dig around you'll find them. I saw them in the AC thread on S.A. and apparently there are newer quotes saying high tech monohulls (TP 52 style ?) with nationality rules, haven't seen those myself though.
I dug before my original post...I couldn't find any quotes. The best I can find is Grant Dalton saying they'll poll the competition. That very well may mean a switch back to monohulls but I doubt it. The sailors are enjoying learning these new beasts, it's obviously great for T.V and the crowds when the racing is close as in the finals, and they employ a lot of people. Canting-keel monohulls can't be raced close to shore and typically require an engine to boost the hydraulic pressure, so the mono is no good for high speed, and probably not too good for the T.V
Personally I would like to see a AC45-like boat, one design hull shape, open soft-sail rig and open foils, essentially what Morrelli suggested. Notably cheaper, speed the same, more teams etc. Probably not in the best interest of the defender so unlikely, but one can dream.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1301:50 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Boy, did Oracle nail the start in R4 yesterday or what?
Oracle is faster in breeze as long as they don't tack any more than necessary. I think they had their VMG angles a little screwy in the first couple of races but it may have been the more moderate breeze that exposed some weakness in boat speed. It still blows my mind that these guys are hung over from mono-hull race tactics after all of this time - I'm watching Oracle in R3 wondering what they were doing by initiating that tacking duel when they had the advantage as tacking only introduces more risk (unless you are certain that you are not going to hang onto your lead and the risk is warranted). In the first race, race #3, yesterday, Oracle seemed desperate upwind and initiated the tacking duel that did them in quickly. As some of you noted here, they're also struggling to keep the bow out of the water when tacking...which is a bit strange. It will be interesting to see if they can put up a similar fight in more moderate breeze.
To be fair to oracle.. In r3 if they had just pegged ETNZ on starboard outside that five boat length boundary they would have sealed it I think. ETNZ would have had to short tack in very short order along the very puffy water in front of where I was sitting in the grandstands. It really was a matter of a few meters...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1301:58 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm not convinced ETNZ will go back to lead-haulers. Please show me the quote where key team members specifically state that?
I don't have the time to do your homework for you ,but if you go back to when ETNZ first committed there were a couple of interviews where it was stated by Grant Dalton that it would go back to monos. Dig around you'll find them. I saw them in the AC thread on S.A. and apparently there are newer quotes saying high tech monohulls (TP 52 style ?) with nationality rules, haven't seen those myself though.
I dug before my original post...I couldn't find any quotes. The best I can find is Grant Dalton saying they'll poll the competition. That very well may mean a switch back to monohulls but I doubt it. The sailors are enjoying learning these new beasts, it's obviously great for T.V and the crowds when the racing is close as in the finals, and they employ a lot of people. Canting-keel monohulls can't be raced close to shore and typically require an engine to boost the hydraulic pressure, so the mono is no good for high speed, and probably not too good for the T.V
Personally I would like to see a AC45-like boat, one design hull shape, open soft-sail rig and open foils, essentially what Morrelli suggested. Notably cheaper, speed the same, more teams etc. Probably not in the best interest of the defender so unlikely, but one can dream.
From the looks of things we'll find out what they'll do. Oracle's got a pretty deep hole to dig out of. Even with them saying that they'd switch doesn't make it etched in stone. Statements only seem valid until the press conference ends, just like politics.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1302:01 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Jake
Boy, did Oracle nail the start in R4 yesterday or what?
Oracle is faster in breeze as long as they don't tack any more than necessary. I think they had their VMG angles a little screwy in the first couple of races but it may have been the more moderate breeze that exposed some weakness in boat speed. It still blows my mind that these guys are hung over from mono-hull race tactics after all of this time - I'm watching Oracle in R3 wondering what they were doing by initiating that tacking duel when they had the advantage as tacking only introduces more risk (unless you are certain that you are not going to hang onto your lead and the risk is warranted). In the first race, race #3, yesterday, Oracle seemed desperate upwind and initiated the tacking duel that did them in quickly. As some of you noted here, they're also struggling to keep the bow out of the water when tacking...which is a bit strange. It will be interesting to see if they can put up a similar fight in more moderate breeze.
To be fair to oracle.. In r3 if they had just pegged ETNZ on starboard outside that five boat length boundary they would have sealed it I think. ETNZ would have had to short tack in very short order along the very puffy water in front of where I was sitting in the grandstands. It really was a matter of a few meters...
"This time, Kostecki told Spithill to sail a more strategic race as if there were 20 boats on the course. OTUSA wanted to avoid the close quarters battle that did them in the previous race." Source: Jobson's notes
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1303:17 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Personally I would like to see a AC45-like boat, one design hull shape, open soft-sail rig and open foils, essentially what Morrelli suggested. Notably cheaper, speed the same, more teams etc. Probably not in the best interest of the defender so unlikely, but one can dream.
What your suggesting is not the format for the AC. The AC is a design competion as Morrelli said. Forget about the one design any thing concept.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1304:55 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by samc99us
Personally I would like to see a AC45-like boat, one design hull shape, open soft-sail rig and open foils, essentially what Morrelli suggested. Notably cheaper, speed the same, more teams etc. Probably not in the best interest of the defender so unlikely, but one can dream.
What your suggesting is not the format for the AC. The AC is a design competion as Morrelli said. Forget about the one design any thing concept.
Yes, that is not true to the DoG, so it'll be open development. As a spectator, I want to see more boats line up as challengers, so lowering the costs is key, but billionaire's think differently.
Biggest surprise to me is ETNZ has Grant Dalton on board as a grinder for at least one race a day, at his less than youthful age. Really that is great news for everyone, if you stay in shape you can still get the job done even at 40+ kts. That suggests the current team might be sticking around for the next cycle.
I'm impressed at ETNZ's speed honestly. I thought they would have an edge, but was 50/50 before this weekend, thinking Oracle would come out of the gate much stronger. Well in Race #4 they did but the delta was 8 freaking seconds!! Why Oracle didn't hire M&M from day 1 was always dumbfounding...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1306:30 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by samc99us
Personally I would like to see a AC45-like boat, one design hull shape, open soft-sail rig and open foils, essentially what Morrelli suggested. Notably cheaper, speed the same, more teams etc. Probably not in the best interest of the defender so unlikely, but one can dream.
What your suggesting is not the format for the AC. The AC is a design competion as Morrelli said. Forget about the one design any thing concept.
Yes, that is not true to the DoG, so it'll be open development. As a spectator, I want to see more boats line up as challengers, so lowering the costs is key, but billionaire's think differently.
Biggest surprise to me is ETNZ has Grant Dalton on board as a grinder for at least one race a day, at his less than youthful age. Really that is great news for everyone, if you stay in shape you can still get the job done even at 40+ kts. That suggests the current team might be sticking around for the next cycle.
I'm impressed at ETNZ's speed honestly. I thought they would have an edge, but was 50/50 before this weekend, thinking Oracle would come out of the gate much stronger. Well in Race #4 they did but the delta was 8 freaking seconds!! Why Oracle didn't hire M&M from day 1 was always dumbfounding...
The class of boats doesn't have much of anything to do with the Deed of Gift. They can run it however they wish as long as the defender and challenger agree. The challenger series is a relatively new development in the history of the cup and certainly wasn't any part of it's history prior to that. It was the Defender racing the sole Challenger for most of the Cup's history. It could technically be a strict one design but given the bank accounts, typical personalities coupled with the lack of ability to leverage expensive technical advantages in a one design setup, we'll probably never see it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1308:18 PM
I'm heading out to San Francisco this Wednesday for about a week to watch the AC. Anybody else heading out and want to meet up? Hoping for a good show.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1301:20 AM
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Originally Posted by brucat
I know the TV time was short, but it would have been nice to see more discussion on the design of the boats, differences and similarities, etc.
Mike
That would assume a whole lot more knowledge than 2 of the 3 commentators have exhibited.
Ken Reid has been good and he's certainly knowledgeable. I'm sure they are under orders to dumb it down a little. I'm also glad that I don't hear "carbon fiber" uttered every 2nd sentence.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1312:22 PM
The only thing wrong with Kenny is his lack of time on these boats (not his fault). He is the President of North Sails, so I would expect a lot more out of him regarding the sails, rather than whining about them not having Code 0s every time the wind is less than 15 knots.
To a casual viewer, one of the most obvious differences in these boats has to be the jibs (OK, maybe the pie warmers). One is wide and short, the other is taller with a square head. Perfect stuff for Kenny to discuss!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1312:29 PM
Hilarious -thanks Tony--they just havn't hooked up the heating element to the grinders and genny yet,--warm pie mmmmmm-mmm
More on TV today at 4 or so E T -12;30 P T
Was anyone else frustrated watching the tactics on race 3 --O should have crossed on starboard as most of us would then pinned E-on port past the layline unable to tack in front --they then would have kept their lead into the 3rd mark,
It seems the tactician hasn't spent much time on a high speed cat or raced much in them --they are stategical not tactical boats to race These guys should have spent some time racing cats in good competative fleets,
And yes --Hi Jake and all--it would great to get a good look at the fasinating design variations between boats, The next generation of designs might focus more on the foiling aspect evan upwind where they are "just skimming" the furface but need the foil underwater to track to windward,--Hull shape in particular could be radiacally rethought --more of a planning skimming type hull -that would also help prevent the nose dive they currently experience when falling off the foils gybing ,--just a thought, --The foil shape and board configuration might also be improved,--though I,m not fully aware of A C design rules,
have fun---Mike--wish I wasa in S F to see it --please give us some insights there,
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1312:43 PM
Am I the only one that's P.O.'d about the changes to the Nationality Rules from years gone by?
That was always one of the biggest draws (for me) to the America's Cup, and I think it was the intent, in the original race. Back in the day, everything had to come from "Country of Origin".
Certainly the skipper and all crew, but also the designers, the boat builder, the sailmaker, etc. all came from the home country of the entry.
I'm just a little perplexed that with a population of about 330 million people, the United States of America cannot put together a competitive AC team! Aren't we supposed to be the "Greatest Nation on Earth"?
I guess our real talent is eating, and watching NASCAR?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1301:54 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
It seems the tactician hasn't spent much time on a high speed cat or raced much in them --they are stategical not tactical boats to race These guys should have spent some time racing cats in good competative fleets,
Carl
After watching 3 & 4 (which kept me on the edge of my seat), I would have figured JK and DB would have both known that: 1) tactics are slow (yes, it's a match race... but still) 2) pinching is slow death 3) tacks in multis are slow (whether it's slower than the current drag... not sure)
The drive over the top strategy at the start seems to work best, but R4 showed what I thought was a good hook by JS. But it probably only worked because Barker screwed something up there...
And I loved the "colorful metaphore" Spithill barked out when they screwed the pooch on that one gybe (when the board raised). They even left it on the replay...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1302:24 PM
I like Monday-morning quarterbacking this regatta as much as the next guy, but this course turns typical match-racing strategy on its ear. Usually, it's get right, and protect right.
However, depending on the current, in the upper part of this course, you want to be left. Way left is even better, especially if slightly behind, because you can use the boundary as a weapon to acquire rights when on port tack.
Besides, if they weren't having tacking duels, the AC purists would probably all have blown a gasket by now (and it would be pretty boring for the rest of us).
One thing I've learned is that the local Hobie racers that I learned from were completely wrong when they said to ignore the current on a cat...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1305:14 PM
"Spongebob negatively affects attention span, says study - CBS Newswww.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7380807n‎CachedSep 12, - CBS News video: Spongebob negatively affects attention span, says study - A ... tackled 5 of 9; Watch: Man goes overboard at America's Cup ..."
funny combination news blurb -- don't he was watching Sponge Bob on the I phone at the time ,;]
Someone will have to overdub the Sponge Bob episode on the replay --funny stuff
So --how do we get foiling 20 ft cat racing going ? I want one of these !
On foil design and balance --believe others use a twist grip control on the rudder foil to adjust height for and aft --the A C cup cats use tilting the boards for and aft ,--seems there must be a better design configuration or method for this--any thoughts ?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1306:50 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo
Take good notes, I'll miss them both,
uh...hello? You can run Youtube on your flip-phone....
Timbo and a flip-phone, you're kidding right? He doesn't go for that new fangled techno weenie crap his phone is the the size of a suitcase and whenever he gets a call he loves saying... go go gadget phone!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1307:02 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo
Take good notes, I'll miss them both,
uh...hello? You can run Youtube on your flip-phone....
Not with only a slow 3G connection. I'll be outdoors, no internet, at a pool, watching a swim meet, in Lakeland (leaving here in about 30 minutes, won't be home until after 8pm).
And for Ding, you'll be shocked to know I've got an HTC EVO 4G phone, but it's too slow for watching You Tube, with only 3G service.
Can we get back to talking about why the USA cannot produce enough top talent to put 11 Americans on an American AC boat? There are very few Americans on either boat, what about one on each? Team NZ has so much talent they are driving BOTH BOATS!
The NZ's (and most everyone else) kicked our kid's buttocks last week in the 45 footers too.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1307:47 PM
They left the Utube feed on in the US for the weekend when people are home and can watch it on TV but took it off during the week when everyone is at work. Go figure.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1308:06 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
They left the Utube feed on in the US for the weekend when people are home and can watch it on TV but took it off during the week when everyone is at work. Go figure.
Use a stealth plug-in in your browser and enjoy youtube
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1308:22 PM
it would make sense if they started putting the distance line between the two as time instead of "distance". As they go from 40 knots downwind to 24 knots upwind, it's physics that the distance shrinks by half as the boat speed drops off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1308:31 PM
Originally Posted by PTP
Why didnt they keep covering nz after rounding mark 2
Yeah...crazy. They had a speed advantage in this breeze up and downwind yesterday and there was no need for drastic risks while leading. That will be second guessed for a while.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1309:11 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I'll be outdoors, no internet, at a pool, watching a swim meet, in Lakeland (leaving here in about 30 minutes, won't be home until after 8pm).
Which pool? I know them all. And yes, you'll get 4G in most places. The town is old, but they've all got I-phones and FB to keep up with their grandkids...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1309:23 PM
you think it's more the wing trim or the foils?
What I found most interesting is the noise levels on each boat. ENTZ has that really loud whistle/hum from the foils, and relatively quiet winch ratchets
OTUSA on the other hand, has the opposite.
And I wonder if they go through a set of mainsheet cordage every race day...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1309:35 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
[quote=Timbo] I'll be outdoors, no internet, at a pool, watching a swim meet, in Lakeland (leaving here in about 30 minutes, won't be home until after 8pm). [/
I'm at Gandy, no 4G, no internet, I can get on Catsailor w3G. Sounds like Oracle lost, then bailed on Race 2? quote]
Which pool? I know them all. And yes, you'll get 4G in most places. The town is old, but they've all got I-phones and FB to keep up with their grandkids...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1309:36 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I can stream it on my phone, but can't watch it on the computer plugged into my tv. F-ing lame
Use this add-on with Firefox. http://www.stealthy.co/ Or . . . Add this extension for Chrome. Stealthy Chrome extension If you are using Internet Explorer, go out to the shed and shoot yourself.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1310:02 PM
They should make an honest statement --such as --We have an equal or better boat but have not had the time on it racing enough to sail it to its true potential--and tactics and strategy are much different in high speed cats --we are learning the hard way in that category as well
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1312:32 AM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Getting a weird vibe about JK. I can imagine what Jimmy and Russell were discussing on the RIB. Wondering if JK will be on the boat Thursday. . .
Oof...just watching the press conference now. I too have that feeling. I think JK is busy in the principle's office. I think they threw that card because they were infighting. Spitty dodges the question about replacing JK. http://youtu.be/kNnzMWMl9Pw?t=7m
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1312:48 AM
Little more deflated in that press session...
Like I said before, I don't think speed is necessarily the issue - though, today they looked off the pace particularly upwind. With a fast as these machines are and how short the races are, you just can't be making mistakes like Oracle has been. You get punished.
Hats off to ETNZ. the crew has their ish together, they take few risks, don't put themselves in bad positions, and they have a hella fast boat.
I just got to watch Race 5. Wow. Talk about a fk up!
Rick, you need to FedEx these clowns a copy of your Catamaran Racing for the 90's! It's obvious whom ever is calling for a downwind rounding at high speed, to roll right into a tack (and come to a dead stop!) has never raced a catamaran before!
I distinctly remember somewhere in your book, Randy Smyth said something like, "Speed is all that matters. Go as fast as you can, as long as you can!" Nowhere did it say, "If you are going fast and well ahead, bring the boat to a complete stop and wait for your opponent to catch up!"
Just wow! What a mess. They should have just stayed on starboard, rounded at high speed, kept on going fast, and waited for ETNZ to round, see which way they go, then either tack (SMOOTHLY, with Speed!) or carry on to the far left, and out of the adverse current!
Seemed like rookie mistakes.
Do you think JK has gotten LE's Sperry out of his butt yet?
I just got to watch Race 5. Wow. Talk about a fk up!
Rick, you need to FedEx these clowns a copy of your Catamaran Racing for the 90's! It's obvious whom ever is calling for a downwind rounding at high speed, to roll right into a tack (and come to a dead stop!) has never raced a catamaran before!
I distinctly remember somewhere in your book, Randy Smyth said something like, "Speed is all that matters. Go as fast as you can, as long as you can!" Nowhere did it say, "If you are going fast and well ahead, bring the boat to a complete stop and wait for your opponent to catch up!"
Just wow! What a mess. They should have just stayed on starboard, rounded at high speed, kept on going fast, and waited for ETNZ to round, see which way they go, then either tack (SMOOTHLY, with Speed!) or carry on to the far left, and out of the adverse current!
Seemed like rookie mistakes.
Do you think JK has gotten LE's Sperry out of his butt yet?
At best case and with a significant lead (worthy of two tacks not causing you much harm), you round the mark and tack back so you reach near the middle of the course at the time your competitor is rounding the mark so you can follow from the front and stay in phase with them. That was bizarre to see them tack right away at that rounding. It does look like they thought they had a sneaky creative manuever in that they could get a free tack by going straight into a tack coming around the mark while still on their foils. They wanted to get right anyway but because tacks are so expensive, they reached the boundary too soon and would have had to do 2 more tacks to stay on the same type of line NZ was running into the lee water of Alcatraz. The blown tack hurt but tacking right away at the mark left them at the edge of the zone too early to take advantage of that side of the course. I heard a comment in the press conference that they just didn't have time to get everything setup for that tack which is part of the reason it looked so awful (the new leeward board wasn't even lowered yet). That was a major dork up.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1312:35 PM
I really feel for the guys on the crew. The "brain trust" has failed them miserably. The looks on their faces at the end of that race was gut-wrenching.
You know it's bad when Kenny is asked why they pulled that stunt, he has no idea, and passes off to Gary, who is also stunned...
During the race, on that leg, Kenny is thinking that they must have broken something on the boat that made them want to tack. Just unbelievable. They should have just rounded the other mark and kept going fast.
I think they honestly don't know which way to go at that mark. Seems like they've tried both ways in prior races, and have been passed anyway.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1312:36 PM
The call I made last night after seeing JS move to the chaseboat to talk to RC instead of sailing the boat home was that JK is off and RC is on. Waiting to see what happens Thursday.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1301:12 PM
The so-called "purists" want to see tacking duels all the way up the course, luffing each other until one chokes, etc. I say that Larry is more in touch with what the regatta was originally about: crazy spending on new technologies, and winning at any cost. I don't know that he intended it to end up this way (so few competitors), but that is essentially how it was before the 12-meter years.
Anyway, what idiot wastes their question in the presser asking something that they know won't be answered now, or at any other time until after the last race: Do you have an agreed protocol for the next one??? She needs her credentials revoked immediately...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1301:23 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
The so-called "purists" want to see tacking duels all the way up the course, luffing each other until one chokes, etc. I say that Larry is more in touch with what the regatta was originally about: crazy spending on new technologies, and winning at any cost. I don't know that he intended it to end up this way (so few competitors), but that is essentially how it was before the 12-meter years.
Anyway, what idiot wastes their question in the presser asking something that they know won't be answered now, or at any other time until after the last race: Do you have an agreed protocol for the next one??? She needs her credentials revoked immediately...
Mike
Yeah...but imagine if he had answered something in the positive to that question? The challenger cannot be accepted until the current cup is won and it's supposed to be first come first serve. To have pre-"selected" a challenger would be not legal per the DoG (although it is pretty much common knowledge that this is what happens). It seemed like a stupid question but she was fishing for a whale. I remember thinking how it was a good thing for NZ that their guys are knowledgeable and/or coached in this area.
If you remember, Larry's challenge to Bertarelli came about because they were able to show that the club that was the official challenger of record was a sham and didn't meet the requirements for "a club" in the DoG. They legally got them booted and Golden Gate Yacht Club's challenge was next in line.
The winners typically have the next challenger of record on a boat with them near the race course to sign a basic agreement moments after the winning boat crosses the line so they can control the transition without leaving room for interference. Until that point, there can be no challenger.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1301:44 PM
I know all of that. It was a wasted question which everyone knows would never be answered.
If you want to know who the next challenger will be, find the commodore of each club before the last race, and see who is with him on the boat. Good luck with that, BTW...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1302:38 PM
BTW, Jimmy was obviously VERY well-coached in some of his answers (or dodging, I should say).
And, although the commentators are getting somewhat more accustomed to cat tactics (they correctly identified that as a mistake almost immediately), on a monohull, spinning around that mark may have turned out to be a brilliant match-racing move. Too bad JK and JS forgot that they're on a cat...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1304:14 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
They should make an honest statement --such as --We have an equal or better boat but have not had the time on it racing enough to sail it to its true potential--and tactics and strategy are much different in high speed cats --we are learning the hard way in that category as well
+1 on that. My amatureish view of the stats doesn't seem to indicate a notable difference in either boat's POTENTIAL. So it would be a shame to "blame the boat" like we so often do...
There was one overhead shot during race 3 that appeared to show OTUSA wing trimmed really weird (compared to ENTZ). Almost like overtrimmed on the top section, maybe even hooking to windward. I can't imagine Kyle would do that, and I know the wing profiles are different between the two boats, but it sure looked "off"...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1304:40 PM
My understanding is that they will do that to off set some of the moment to lee created by the rest of the wing. The wing was designed to fly a hull in 6 knots of breeze. If the rig were shorter, they could theoretically go faster. Less drag. So they are using the top section to create force to windward. The drag is already there, they are just using the rig to gain the most advantage.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1307:08 PM
Interesting stuff from that article above Philip, thanks. Obviously that's reason why ETNZ is so much faster/better at foiling. Why LE didn't hire M+M is beyond me, but I'm sure he had a reason...?
One of the team's early hires was designer and foiling expert Pete Melvin, who had worked on Oracle's successful 2010 campaign and was commissioned by Ellison to create the guidelines for the cutting-edge, double-hulled AC 72 yachts used in the 2013 Cup. "That was the target for us," said Grant Dalton, the team's managing director. "What's this thing supposed to look like? The best way to find that out is to go to one of the guys who wrote the rule in the first place."
A former U.S. Olympic sailor, Melvin said he was unsure whether the boats, which were speedy but unwieldy, would be able to achieve stable foiling. But Melvin said his team found a way to do it six to eight months ahead of the competition. The Kiwis tried to hide the breakthrough from their competitor's spy boats, so they foiled only when they thought the scouts were out of sight.
The other three teams in the Cup eventually replicated the discovery, but the Kiwis do it better, especially upwind, said Chris Draper, the helmsman of the Italian team Luna Rossa, which New Zealand eliminated in a preliminary round.
To sail upwind, a boat zigzags, making a series of turns called tacks. When New Zealand tacks, it keeps one hull above the water and stays at 10 knots or above, Draper said. But when Oracle tacks, both hulls remain in the sea and the yacht slows to around nine knots, Draper said, because Oracle's foiling system is more rudimentary. The Kiwis "are able to achieve a tack that will be very hard for Oracle to replicate," Draper said. "Oracle's going to have to sail exceptionally well to win this."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1307:33 PM
Yeah, but it was really stupid not to hire the guys who wrote the rules too! And all the practice time Oracle lost when they pitch-poled their boat has certainly shown that superior boat handling is what the race is about, as it should be.
Basically, the Kiwi's have spent more time sailing, on a better foiling system. That Oracle has been in front in 3 of 5 races is amazing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1307:42 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah, but it was really stupid not to hire the guys who wrote the rules too! And all the practice time Oracle lost when they pitch-poled their boat has certainly shown that superior boat handling is what the race is about, as it should be.
Basically, the Kiwi's have spent more time sailing, on a better foiling system. That Oracle has been in front in 3 of 5 races is amazing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1307:55 PM
Anyone notice the revised rudders on Oracle in the video Philip posted above (pg188)? Interesting. Those weren't even painted. I would guess that was a Monday change.
When he talks about Oracle burning up a 135 meter lead to only 35 meters in the maneuver at the bottom of the course, he hasn't considered the speed difference in upwind and downwind legs and how that translates to the distance. Oracle didn't really burn up a 135 meter lead. By the vary nature of both boats dropping from 38 knots to 23 knots of boat speed, the distance between them would have been reduced by 40% as well...so just slowing down for the upwind angle closed the distance between them from 135 meters to 82 meters.
The time between them would remain the same, however. If boat A is 20 seconds behind boat B at 50 mph and they both decelerate to 25 mph at an identical rate, boat A is still 20 seconds behind boat B but they are 50% closer together.
Anytime you see these boats drop so much speed in the transition from downwind mode to upwind mode, you will see the distance between them compress. So Oracle only actually gave up 47 meters in that kerfuffle.
This is also why it may pay to round the bottom mark with a bunch of speed, keep that speed for a little while at the expense of sliding a little downwind until you settle on your foils. We've seen pretty dramatic differences in closing distances if you can ease into that deceleration while slowly dropping into the upwind mode (I'm not sure they have this figured out yet). We've seen several dramatic come-from-behinds by the way these guys round the bottom mark...and it's usually the guy that screams into the mark, exits wide, and slowly settles into an upwind mode that makes up a ton of distance.
Let's see, an expert at racing lasers and fins. Yup, he should know everything about multi-hull racing tactics. That'll fix it.
I like the choice. He's been driving boat #1 all this time and he has a good feel for speeds, tacking angles/time, time on distance, the effect of the currents, etc.
He and Jimmy might just gel better. Who knows if there was friction between JS and JK.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1311:25 PM
Exactly--the guys with cat racing experience have the knowledge and ability to make instant adjustments and the results speak for themselves.
The mono sailors used to 10 + -knot hull speeds are trying to apply tactics to cats going 4 times the speed of monos they are accustom to.
helpfull hints to the O team most of us already know about racing cats--
1-cats can easily sail through the lee side of another cat that just tacked in front--there is no need to tack--the better option is usually to sail through the lee side then higher or using the boundry for the next tack. The speed difference is that great--the basics are a cat going 40 is 4 times faster than one coming off a tack at 10. They are sailing their length every what --few seconds ?
An extra tack equals multiple boat lengths of distance comparatively--that is --an extra tack costs distance--somecan can do the math --my estimate is 50 to 100 metersnor 2 to 4 boat lengths .
Jakes comments on mark roundings are spot on --
The helm has to be soft and smooth and in touch with minor wind variations --antisipating each---not jerky and searching --everything on a cat is magnified inc the drag induced by rudders and instability of air flow on the sail --smooth and steady--hit the sweet spot and best vmg --then stay in the zone steady and smooth with soft hands on the wheel and it will be faster.
At the start antisipate the speed and distance --hit the line at top speed --{we all know this--and yes easiler said than done}
Sorry for this post--It is just very frustrating watching this--seems the better boat is loosing the racing series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/1311:36 PM
Risky regardless. Can't do what their doing now but changing to Ainslie as your tactision is a risk as well. Not sure he's even been on the water much since the regatta got under way...
Bingo! Didn't Gashby also teach the whole NZ team how to sail cats when he first joined?
Team Oracle tacks look more like mono hull tacks vs NZ. They slam the brakes on most tacks by turning so fast. Jibes looks good though.
Perhaps loosing (Dirk DeRidder?) as their wing trimmer has hurt Oracle more than anyone is talking about?
Seems they are always 'slower' going upwind, and perhaps Ashby's trimming on ETNZ's wing is why they are always faster upwind?
Oh, and Ding, I just registered for Wildcat, but with that goofy registration site you've got, it took me 30 minutes to reset my password and fix my boat name!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1304:59 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I can stream it on my phone, but can't watch it on the computer plugged into my tv. F-ing lame
Use this add-on with Firefox. http://www.stealthy.co/ Or . . . Add this extension for Chrome. Stealthy Chrome extension If you are using Internet Explorer, go out to the shed and shoot yourself.
Today racing live on NBCSN with the broadcast beginning at 12:30 PT. On YouTube internationally; full replay after broadcast. The above hack will get you around the YouTube North America blackout. You've got enough time to add the extensions so no whining.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1305:44 PM
Hi Mike-
We need someone to start building 20 ft versions of these amazing foiling cats !!Might try building one this winter.
Anyone know why there are not more top catamaran sailors like Ashbee onboard A C cats? --just common sense isn't it?
sheeesh !
quick racing story ---
Back in 1988 we raced in PROSAIL and the Ultimate Yacht Race professional racing series --2 different series in the US that year. We raced all over the US in great venues inc. Miami--Corpus Cristi TX--Mystic Conn--Great Lakes--Newport RI--San Fran.--etc.
The Ultimate Yacht Race in Mystic -New London Conn. was shown on NBC Sports --great fun. Our main competition in the Hobie 21 class w spin that week was Chris --who had just returned from the Olympics in Korea. Very excellent sailor but used to monos--not cats--MUCH LIKE MOST OF THE SAILORS on the AM CUP cats now.
We sailed in 3 days of prelim. races then finals on the weekend in every type of condition imaginable as the races were in Oct on the Sound. Roger and I eventually won the series that week mainly because we understood cat racing. Chris tried several times to tack directly in front, much like we have seen in the AM CUP racing currently,--each time we simply reached briefly through to leeward and clear air then sailed up higher and eventually in front . Rog and I rounded marks with speed better -tacked better--understanding cats we sailed strategically and for position. It is why we won the series that week .
I have to admit Chris was better with the chute than I was but the chute was brand new to me in 88 on cats --so --you can be slower but understanding high speed cats--better associated high speed strategy--better roundings -tacks and gybes--and catamaran tactics will win most every time.
As one other put it --the fat lady is about to sing ;]
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1305:53 PM
Here is the source for umpire replays, which updates after every race. This page will be effective throughout the remainder of the series. Official Umpire Booth Replay Noticeboard
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1306:28 PM
Ben? What they need is a cat sailor. Wow...
Ben can't lose, really. If they lose the cup, they've been headed that way anyway, primarily due to perceived lack of upwind speed/maneuverability (insert your reason for that here). If they win he gets credit for the turnaround, and gets a blank check anywhere he goes for the rest of his life...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1306:37 PM
What does "a cat sailor" even mean? Ben is a 4 time Olympic Gold Medalist, match race world champion, and has been training non-stop as the skipper of the Oracle B boat for months. At the level these guys are sailing the transition to another type of boat isn't a huge problem- just look at Ben's performance in the ACWS.
Personally, I think crew work and losing DDR was the biggest setback to Oracle, and place much less blame on JK.
I really wish labels in sailing would just go away!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1306:41 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
What does "a cat sailor" even mean? Ben is a 4 time Olympic Gold Medalist, match race world champion, and has been training non-stop as the skipper of the Oracle B boat for months. At the level these guys are sailing the transition to another type of boat isn't a huge problem- just look at Ben's performance in the ACWS.
Personally, I think crew work and losing DDR was the biggest setback to Oracle, and place much less blame on JK.
I really wish labels in sailing would just go away!
Let's see, an expert at racing lasers and fins. Yup, he should know everything about multi-hull racing tactics. That'll fix it.
I like the choice. He's been driving boat #1 all this time and he has a good feel for speeds, tacking angles/time, time on distance, the effect of the currents, etc.
He and Jimmy might just gel better. Who knows if there was friction between JS and JK.
Let's see, an expert at racing lasers and fins. Yup, he should know everything about multi-hull racing tactics. That'll fix it.
I like the choice. He's been driving boat #1 all this time and he has a good feel for speeds, tacking angles/time, time on distance, the effect of the currents, etc.
He and Jimmy might just gel better. Who knows if there was friction between JS and JK.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1306:53 PM
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
What does "a cat sailor" even mean? Ben is a 4 time Olympic Gold Medalist, match race world champion, and has been training non-stop as the skipper of the Oracle B boat for months. At the level these guys are sailing the transition to another type of boat isn't a huge problem- just look at Ben's performance in the ACWS.
Personally, I think crew work and losing DDR was the biggest setback to Oracle, and place much less blame on JK.
I really wish labels in sailing would just go away!
That's just because you're not a cat sailor...
The sentiment is strong here. Anyone who's spent enough time racing cats would know that the "foiling tack" they attempted, even if it had been properly executed, was a huge mistake.
There have been other, less obvious examples of tactical blunders. I don't put it all on JK, and don't see Big Ben as the magic bullet.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1307:00 PM
The foiling tack ended up as a big mistake... but who here, cat sailor or otherwise, has ever tried something like that while foiling at 45 knots? Maybe if they had more time to practice the maneuver and did it cleanly, rounding the mark at 20+ knots and heading to favorable current, we would be singing a very different tune! The performance of these boats is so far beyond the realm of what we all know that I am willing to believe that the playbook just may be more expansive than we are accustomed to.
The again, I think the move would have been to round, and tack when NZ did to cover... not exactly an exclusive catamaran tactic.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1307:28 PM
if the current is that bad, I wonder if the low/fast mode cutting through the current section to the other side and then going back to the high/slow mode would pay better than the short tacking?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1307:31 PM
Screwed again. NBC sports does not include Brighthouse in there provider list(you have to logon thru thier provider list to watch) so I cannot watch on line. Have to wait till I get home and watch it on the BRIGHTHOUSE DVR!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1308:54 PM
I thought after rounding mark 2 with a 12 second lead, Oracle should have tacked just a little sooner, to put themselves directly above ETNZ, or at least a little closer to them. At least they didn't do the 180 slam tack they did on Tuesday, when they went from about 40 knots to 6, while trying to do a complete 180 degree turn! Today they carried on a little too long before tacking back to cover.
Still, it might not have mattered in the end, it's obvious ETNZ is faster upwind and tacks better, so a 12 second lead at the bottom mark is not enough for Oracle to survive leg 3.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1308:57 PM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I just don't understand the slow tacks....
Looking all but sealed up. Needed to win both races today...
It's hard to tell from only seeing the boats on TV, but according to Gary Jobson, the Kiwi hulls are rounder, fuller, and floats higher, so it tacks faster. He said the Oracle boat is skinny (you see how much more often they dig their bows in) and it slows down more every time they tack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/1310:36 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I just don't understand the slow tacks....
Looking all but sealed up. Needed to win both races today...
It's hard to tell from only seeing the boats on TV, but according to Gary Jobson, the Kiwi hulls are rounder, fuller, and floats higher, so it tacks faster. He said the Oracle boat is skinny (you see how much more often they dig their bows in) and it slows down more every time they tack.
Floats higher? hah. The self tacking jib has a good bit to do with it too. You can watch the oracle jib sheet out past an upwind setting and get reeled in as the boat gets moving. The NZ jib, on a self tacker, hits it's other side and stops and helps bring the bows down. According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.
I also think NZ is doing something different with their daggerboards in the tacks. Oracle just gets a weird bow-down attitude when it is head to wind...it's strange. I've seen them submerge the bow on tacks and I can't figure out what's going on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1312:28 AM
Gary Jobson also pointed out that ETNZ was running a tall, skinny jib, vs. Oracle's shorter, wider jib. One thing about a self tacking jib, the foot has to be shorter than the distance from the mast base to the tack point.
I'm not sure that the jib Oracle was using today had a short enough foot for use with a self tacker. Do they even have a taller, blade type jib? And why don't they have a self tacker anyway?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1312:44 AM
The only engineering data supporting a lower aspect jib is the higher Reynolds number encountered (not even a factor at these speeds), and the only other possible reason is purely down to wing design (I'm not a C-class guy sorry).
Higher aspect jib is less draggy, and obviously the self-tacker is faster in umm, the tacks! So WTF Oracle??
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1301:31 AM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Jake
According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.
Except that they've been on Stars for what? 40 years?
And beach cats for 12 years.
^^THIS^^ (that was what I was getting at).
We don't have self tackers because the crew has too much to do. We have them because they trim immediately and help draw the bow down through the tack. I put in requests downwind and have Ted sing me songs while we sail and tack upwind.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1311:58 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I just don't understand the slow tacks....
Looking all but sealed up. Needed to win both races today...
It's hard to tell from only seeing the boats on TV, but according to Gary Jobson, the Kiwi hulls are rounder, fuller, and floats higher, so it tacks faster. He said the Oracle boat is skinny (you see how much more often they dig their bows in) and it slows down more every time they tack.
Floats higher? hah. The self tacking jib has a good bit to do with it too. You can watch the oracle jib sheet out past an upwind setting and get reeled in as the boat gets moving. The NZ jib, on a self tacker, hits it's other side and stops and helps bring the bows down. According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.
I also think NZ is doing something different with their daggerboards in the tacks. Oracle just gets a weird bow-down attitude when it is head to wind...it's strange. I've seen them submerge the bow on tacks and I can't figure out what's going on.
The self tacking jib probably helps marignally in and of itself. The real adavantage comes from having the 2 guys oracle has gringing on the front sail available to work the foils and mainsail so their boat attitude stays true and the main comes over faster.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1312:41 PM
I do have to give huge credit to JS and the team for the dramatic turnaround in starts. They went from being completely trounced at the start of the series, to owning the starts and really frustrating DB.
If they can pull such a turnaround with their upwind performance, we have a chance. Otherwise, bring back the foiling tacks and any other crazy stunts for the entertainment value...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1302:43 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.
Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1302:59 PM
At the dock out show yesterday I talked to one of the Oracle designers. I asked him why they didn't go with a self tracker on the jib and he said that it was a decision made early in the design process to help keep weight down and he said that the sailors wanted the option of backwinding it for maneuverability. Unfortunately it appears to be a major downfall off the boat. You can see the whole rig move when the pop the jib during a tack. I also asked if the kiwis can tack faster because of the additional rocker in their hulls and he mentioned that the boats had "almost the same amount of rocker but the tacks are all about foil work." Maybe if the jib grinders were able to adjust foils instead you'd see similar performance.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1303:02 PM
I've spoken to quite a few kiwis out here who have been good natured and graceful in victory (totally unlike those kiwi fans on the Internet, my God twitter is horrible) and they all seem to think that it will stay in multihulls . It seems that everyone thinks that a smaller 72 would be perfect. Something like a 60 or 55.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1303:02 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.
Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.
There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1303:26 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.
Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.
There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.
How many people are at the actual event? No so many, I think the stadium thing is over rated what in my view has been the advance in the media display. Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person. The graphics and lines on the screen etc make it all the sudden a bit more understandable to the gereal public and now they can show some interest.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1303:46 PM
You can't backwind a jib with a selftacker? Funny thing is that I have seen Jimmy do this in person at the F18 Worlds where he was crewing for Ashby :-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1304:02 PM
I'm here in SF now and the crowd on Sunday was massive. Hardly any seats open in the grandstands and thousands lining the beach. The concessions dude I spoke to said that they grossly underestimated how many people would show up and they had to order a lot more beer and food to sell. The experience here is something you really have to check out for yourself before you poopoo it. Definitely everyone here is loving the whole thing.
Holy hell I forgot to me ton that yesterday at the AC village the checkout line at the big schwag store wrapped around the entire store!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1304:26 PM
"Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person."
True of any major sport, and basically the whole goal. The money is in the TV ads you can sell. Takes a whole lot of t-shirts (even at SF prices) to make up for that...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1304:49 PM
Originally Posted by mini
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.
Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.
There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.
How many people are at the actual event? No so many, I think the stadium thing is over rated what in my view has been the advance in the media display. Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person. The graphics and lines on the screen etc make it all the sudden a bit more understandable to the gereal public and now they can show some interest.
Yeah, but it's in the US right now. We've never been able to draw big crowds at sailing events. The response to the Volvo stops were also pretty meager on the right coast in the past. I'm imagining a similar setting in NZ or somewhere in Europe - it would be off the hizzle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1304:51 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
You can't backwind a jib with a selftacker? Funny thing is that I have seen Jimmy do this in person at the F18 Worlds where he was crewing for Ashby :-)
Yeah, but try to hang on to that big baby with your hands! ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1307:21 PM
from my armchair, it would seem that race 6 was a proper beat-down by ENTZ. That race alone should put to rest the debate about whether multihulls can match race.
I like the 5 leg format, because even though the boats are literally flying, it can at times feel like paint drying
The uphill leg(s) being longest from a time perspective, it makes sense that a boat designed and handled for upwind performance may stand to control the race as long as the first 2 legs aren't a total disaster.
The graphics showed OTUSA actually had equal or slightly better speed upwind, but I couldn't tell if the VMG was better or not. But it was obvious that their tacks were a (relative to ENTZ) disaster.
I did wonder if there were a foil setting that OTUSA might be missing on the upwind leg. I'm trying to picture how that really complex daggarboard shape "looks" relative to the boat's motion through the water on a non-foiling upwind leg. But I'd bet there's plenty of computers onboard to tell the trimmer where to set the board angle (if it is even adjustable on OTUSA)
Race 7 was just sad all the way around for OTUSA. But I'm glad they are professional enough to stay focused and keep going at it.
OR... (insert conspiracy theory here) does OTUSA have one more card to play, and they're going to drop it in race 8 and run the table? Imagine the increase in viewership for race 8,9,10 if OTUSA started winning... Or maybe they'll squeak out a race or two to keep this going down to the wire on the last race?
What I find to be almost a shame is that this might be the last showing for these boats... If they're going 49 knots now, after a year or less of sailing, imagine how fast they'd be going if the teams raced them for another 12 months? Yeowch.
Another thought I pondered through my rum... would these boats work at any other venue? Valencia looked too light, any open ocean may wreak serious potential damage, etc.
And if that virtual wind was right, the course looked somewhat skewed. It's a shame they couldn't move the leeward gate a little to the east to square it up a little, but Alcatraz may have choked off the right side of the course...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1309:34 PM
Originally Posted by mini
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.
Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.
There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.
How many people are at the actual event? No so many, I think the stadium thing is over rated what in my view has been the advance in the media display. Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person. The graphics and lines on the screen etc make it all the sudden a bit more understandable to the gereal public and now they can show some interest.
I agree with Tad - being there was incredibly cool, more so than I ever imagined. I'm grateful I was able to go - hopefully not a once-in-a-lifetime, but it sure felt like it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/13/1311:10 PM
Originally Posted by mini
How many people are at the actual event? No so many, I think the stadium thing is over rated what in my view has been the advance in the media display. Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person. The graphics and lines on the screen etc make it all the sudden a bit more understandable to the gereal public and now they can show some interest.
I aggree with the TV and internet, but many people are watching it from their office/home/apartment/condo... My work counterpart in the bay area tells me he has been invited to a few "AC Watching Parties" this weekend.
Seems like there is a pretty big buzz going in SFO with the race.
In having meetings this week with some of my clients I will have to say there is better awareness of the sport that in the past.. Some are actually getting into it, and once place had a pool going.
Would hate to see this go to Auckland, but.... as I think the SFO venue has been great for this.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/14/1302:06 AM
The venue here is great. We watched from alcatraz. That turned out to be the best viewing anywhere. I'm going to check out Chrissy Field tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll head up to the GG bridge.
Obvious O is a little slower upwind. I think it might just be that they don't point quite as high. Then NZ can out tack them so they just cover and control.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/14/1306:38 AM
Last Sunday we watched from the shore,West end of Harbor entrance, across from stands. No charge, could see whole course, and hear announcer. But, could not beat the view form the water Saturday, as we moved the Alter Cup course, and were up close to the AC 72's.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/14/1302:03 PM
I'll be on the A-pin today and tomorrow for the OCR here in Long Beach, so I won't get to watch the races. I already made my prediction a couple of months ago, but my fingers are crossed for an incident-free day in SF. Safe sailors, no broken bits. Enjoy, fellas!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1312:24 AM
Holy **** people...
That was incredible and scary at the same time. I was certain that the most was going over... So much so that I was hugging the nearest kiwi in nervous anticipation. The whole jetty breathed a collective gasp when it went up on one edge then sighed in relief when it settled down.
Oracle looked competitive upwind today. Let's hope they can keep it up.
I overheard a guy comment on the walk back that "the America's cup as a sport has never been better." Have to say that I totally agree.
My family here in town is totally hooked. I bright three of them out to the jetty and get loved seeing the boats scream by.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1304:06 AM
Etnz was but by the same margin that they led in the first race at the bottom gate and they were able to show good speed upwind today. Even if etnz didn't near capsize they still would have been penalized for fouling oracle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1304:51 AM
Nz was leading by 30 meters when the second race was called off. Looked like O solved their upwind problem with changes made.
When NZ went up I couldn't believe my eyes. Dean saved it with a last second turn into the wind. It looked much closer to going over in person than it looked on TV. Just a little gust and it would have been over. Looked like the wing didn't release on the tack. When they tacked back they fouled O and had to wait out the penalty.
My pictures look good. Snapped a bunch.
I also caught an H20 from Surf City having fun with the 72s in the background. If anyone knows who that is I have some pictures for them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1312:07 PM
The penalty NZ got should have been assessed after they got back up to speed. As it was they were just getting things sorted and getting back up to speed so really no penalty. O had to tack to avoid them and lost more ground then what the penalty on NZ gave them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1301:07 PM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
The penalty NZ got should have been assessed after they got back up to speed. As it was they were just getting things sorted and getting back up to speed so really no penalty. O had to tack to avoid them and lost more ground then what the penalty on NZ gave them.
+1 Just as you said, clearly visible here on the penalty from the Umpire Booth Replay
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1301:33 PM
It has been a pleasure to watch the racing and read interesting comments here--thanks all.
Did anyone else think O could have sailed over the top when E lee bowed them in the crossing situation before the near capcize ? It looked like the speed differential was sufficient ,--instead they typically monoed away .
new term --monoed ;]meaning a typical monohull tactic rather catamaran tactic.
Wondering what tweaks O made to the boat to help it upwind--or was it just higher windspeed and playing shifts better? A cat that misses a wind vere lift can loose several boat lengths in example--Also it is amusing listening to the commentators trying to explain it. Jobson in particular has a history of disliking multihulls and clearly doesn't fully understand the differences . He has no time on high speed cats ,no real experience with them--how could he relate like --oh say those of us here on Catsailor .;]
They removed the extention on the pole--tweaked the pie warmers etc etc--wondering if they are still experimenting with some of basic tuning adjustments such as mast rake --Has anyone made a measured comparison of rake differential between the 2 cats . Generally raking back helps downwind performance and forward helps upwind.
The boats themselves seem very evan --really looking forward to the next races --the better sailing team will with fewer mistakes will win, Congrates to all racing --what an amazing experience it must be .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1303:02 PM
Interesting race yesterday...that was awesome. Interesting note I took away from that is how crucial the timing of the wing popping over is to a good tack. I'm not sure Oracle is mechanically slower upwind - I'm pretty sure it's all about the process and they're starting to get it figured out. I'm not sure they can really drill these tacks down much better with the daggerboard pitch controls also handled by the helmsman on his wheel, but they're getting better. Watch the replay of NZ's tack and look how fast they were still going when they went through the wind. They got up on the foils in the middle of the turn and if the wing popped over, it looks like they would have had a very fast tack. Even the pros still have a lot to figure out about how to make these boats fast. I think Oracle has a chance if they can keep learning.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1303:18 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Holy **** people...
That was incredible and scary at the same time. I was certain that the most was going over... So much so that I was hugging the nearest kiwi in nervous anticipation. The whole jetty breathed a collective gasp when it went up on one edge then sighed in relief when it settled down.
Oracle looked competitive upwind today. Let's hope they can keep it up.
I overheard a guy comment on the walk back that "the America's cup as a sport has never been better." Have to say that I totally agree.
My family here in town is totally hooked. I bright three of them out to the jetty and get loved seeing the boats scream by.
My Bay Area counter part; who is not into sailing, emailed me about the race yesterday... he was there...
He was amazed and didn't realize the physical and mental challenge... He thought it was a bunch staunchly blue bloods with their yacht club blazers and white trousers (Ala Judge Smails)
He wants to comes down next weekend, that is if the cup is done and over with, to go sailing and try it for himself...
IMPO, what this is doing for sailing is what Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali did for boxing...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1305:24 PM
Did anyone notice that as the ENZ near capsize is starting in the background, on board Oracle a crew member runs from right to left and his foot and leg tear down through the tramp? Either a tear in the material or a hole but he falls thigh deep!
Reviewing the full replay, at 28:53 just before ENZ starts their tack you can see the Oracle guy fall through. That can't be just stretchy tramp fabric, can it?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1305:49 PM
Originally Posted by David Parker
Did anyone notice that as the ENZ near capsize is starting in the background, on board Oracle a crew member runs from right to left and his foot and leg tear down through the tramp? Either a tear in the material or a hole but he falls thigh deep!
Reviewing the full replay, at 28:53 just before ENZ starts their tack you can see the Oracle guy fall through. That can't be just stretchy tramp fabric, can it?
He step between the net and the wing fairing. It has happened a couple of times.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/15/1310:31 PM
Guys, it's worth your time to watch race 10 on Virtual Eye Select "HISTORICAL" on bottom right of page. Select "AC34 FINALS" on bottom right of page. Select Race 10. On the buttons on the left turn ON: Advantage Distance ON Yacht Speed Arrows ON Yacht Trail ON Wind Arrows ON (it will show the slight shift) Information Panel ON (it will show race timer) 100 Meter Ladder Grid ON
Fascinating to watch this race on Virtual Eye. During a race, I always watch on multiple screens: 1) Virtual Eye 2) NBC Live Broadcast 3) YouTube LiveLine.
At the bottom of the page you can control Play, Forward, Reverse, Fast Forward, Fast Reverse or select a leg. You can jump to the beginning of leg 3 be selecting the Red Circle 2. This is where it gets good around the 10:45 minute time stamp. Watch Oracle's VMG take off and they close the gap when they start foiling. Also, great to watch the downwind crossing on the next leg.
Unfortunately, when NBC goes to commercial they miss so much of the race. Virtual Eye and the LiveLine add so much more and covers everything the commercial breaks miss. For Race 10 Virtual Eye ROCKS!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1301:28 AM
Was listening to race ten at thirty thousand feet... Punched the airplane window when etnz crossed. Great race though. How can you not love this racing?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1301:45 AM
Oracle error handed race10 to the NZ.
Why not gybe and drop right in and drag race it from there? Error cost them 200+m and threw them outta sorts there. Can't make those mistakes this late. Needed that win - specially after totally getting it done on the 3rd leg and eating up 150m to take the slight lead at the 3rd mark heading into the shore....
NZ only needs 2. Can Oracle make a race of this!? ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1302:17 AM
"The new look America’s Cup was captured today in Race 10, where the lead changed hands four times in the 10-nautical mile race and the four mark roundings had deltas of 3 seconds, 11 seconds, 1 second and 11 seconds. The lead changed hands three times alone on the 3-nautical-mile windward leg."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1311:05 AM
Well I was wrong about that 2 race penalty, it's looking like a much bigger deal now. I imagine that OR might have started a little more confident without it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1312:35 PM
WTF. Everyone was screaming about the foiling tack and poor tactics a few days ago, so much so Oracle changed up its aftergard. Whoever made the slowdown and duck call dowind in the last race pulled a monumental F up that made the errors of previous days look like nothing. You are running 2X wind speed with boat speed being everything and you have the boat with typically a better VMG off wind. Jibe and get into a drag race. Slow down and it is not possible to make up the distance in that short of a course. What's Ainsly making to be there - My 11 year old grand daughter called that one.
These guys may be great sailors, but they have some serious learning to do yet on apparent wind racing. (No way Ashby would have let Barker slow and duck in that situation)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1312:43 PM
They gave up a lot at the top of the course too by unnecessarily pinching to try and keep NZ from laying the mark. That cost them the lead and then they secured it with that slowdown on the downwind leg.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1312:52 PM
Originally Posted by mini
WTF. Everyone was screaming about the foiling tack and poor tactics a few days ago, so much so Oracle changed up its aftergard. Whoever made the slowdown and duck call dowind in the last race pulled a monumental F up that made the errors of previous days look like nothing. You are running 2X wind speed with boat speed being everything and you have the boat with typically a better VMG off wind. Jibe and get into a drag race. Slow down and it is not possible to make up the distance in that short of a course. What's Ainsly making to be there - My 11 year old grand daughter called that one.
These guys may be great sailors, but they have some serious learning to do yet on apparent wind racing. (No way Ashby would have let Barker slow and duck in that situation)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1301:05 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Is there any light system on the boat that lets them know if there's overlap?
If not then Ainslie has Spidey-vision since I couldn't even tell on that replay.
Tad, did you look at this? In the audio you can here him say they are overlapped. Pretty easy to see from their perspective, as the picture shows. The announcer said it was Slingsby but I thought it was Ainslie. The link has the umpire playback.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1301:34 PM
Overlap is measured from the stern and Ainslie was in a perfect position to judge this as he is very far aft.
I think the tactical decision to let the kiwis go past was a good one, but was executed poorly (Jimmy put the brakes on). By going behind them they would have had a chance to block the kiwis from gybing, and be on starboard tack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1301:51 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I know that its measured from the stern but does the opposite boat need to get its bows past the stern or just the sprit?
Oops, was reading too fast. http://www.cupinfo.com/downloads/ac34-rrsac-1p14-030713.pdf There is a special definition called Bowsprit Overlap: "Bowsprit Overlap A bowsprit overlap exists when there is no overlap but a part of the bowsprit is overlapped to the outside of either of the other yacht’s hulls."
It only seems to apply when giving room (R18 etc) but not when sailing normally (R11).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1302:21 PM
The fat lady found the racing this weekend awesome (her words) however, she remains on the stage and would like to point out it's taken the U.S. team a weeks worth of work and racing just to match NZ. Matching won't win them the cup. They have one day to become dominant and that would be a miracle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1302:28 PM
"I can honestly say this is the most fun and exciting sailing I've been involved with," said ORACLE TEAM USA tactician Ben Ainslie, a four-time Olympic gold medalist.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1302:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Overlap is measured from the stern and Ainslie was in a perfect position to judge this as he is very far aft.
I think the tactical decision to let the kiwis go past was a good one, but was executed poorly (Jimmy put the brakes on). By going behind them they would have had a chance to block the kiwis from gybing, and be on starboard tack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1302:51 PM
Jimmy had a bit more of a bite on ETNZ though when he had overlap. I think with that overlap yesterday I'd give them plenty of room to round but if they tried to take me up I might take my chances and keep trucking forwards and try to get clear ahead and then turn down.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1303:18 PM
I almost puked when watching the second race, up on the beat, when Kenny just HAD to say my most despised Gary Jobson line of the ACWS: "...and people said you can't match race on multihulls."
Of course, Jobson said it any time a boat tacked near another one in the ACWS.
To his credit though, right after Kenny said it yesterday, Jobson replied: "This is match racing on steroids!"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1304:30 PM
Match racing purists want boats that have close speeds upwind and downwind. There is something to be said for that, as it makes it harder to have a runaway as soon as the leader rounds the mark (onto a faster leg).
And don't kid yourselves by listening to the commentary. Lee bow tacks don't work on cats. The best you can hope for is tacking in front, and if you can do that, you were already ahead...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1305:17 PM
I've got to admit, after seeing the LV series I was a little concerned that the naysayers may have been correct about match racing on catamarans. Thankfully, the ebb tide leveling out the race course coupled with Oracle figuring out how to tack better have made a real race out of this thing. The high speed and physicality are intense and I about capsized my recliner twice over the weekend I was hiking so hard. That was pretty exhilarating to watch and even if NZ takes the cup home, they'll have a hard time convincing the world that this wasn't a pretty awesome concept.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1306:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
even if NZ takes the cup home, they'll have a hard time convincing the world that this wasn't a pretty awesome concept.
+1 It's almost hard to root against either team, given the huge talent and awesomeness of the boats. That neither team is entirely out of the regatta (although OTUSA seems to be hanging on by one hand) and these races are becoming true nail-biting events with multiple lead changes makes it worth sitting through all those boring LV single boat races.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1307:19 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
even if NZ takes the cup home, they'll have a hard time convincing the world that this wasn't a pretty awesome concept.
+1 It's almost hard to root against either team, given the huge talent and awesomeness of the boats. That neither team is entirely out of the regatta (although OTUSA seems to be hanging on by one hand) and these races are becoming true nail-biting events with multiple lead changes makes it worth sitting through all those boring LV single boat races.
*EVERY* *SINGLE* *PERSON* that I have introduced to this racing has LOVED it. My friend Robert is ready to go buy a catamaran, having NEVER STEPPED ON A SAILBOAT in his life. This is all due to the 34th America's Cup.
Here's the google chat I just had with him a few minutes ago:
Quote
lol Poor Tad. Given your height... when you race your boat you should trim and let someone else steer. </random thought> Robert • 1 min jesus christ what I have done I've turned you into a monster
He's sitting here arguing tactics with me, giving me pointers on how to sail my boat, asking all kinds of GOOD questions... he's totally hooked thanks to Larryvision. Now I just need to get his tall lanky butt down here to FL so he can crew for me.
We took Kate's whole family to the races on Saturday. Three of her cousins, her aunt and uncle... they had a blast sitting on the rocks watching the boats go by. They saw the near capsize and starting hooting and hollering with all the others out there to watch. Its amazing how well its worked to expose the sport to a wider audience.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1308:50 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
I posted that here yesterday. Ehman has a history of stirring the pot.
Needs to be careful with that Dalton rule they put in about tarnishing the image of the cup....that could come back to bite them again if he's making public false accusations.
edit; oh wait...i see that this is what ETNZ is filing. Yikes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1301:36 PM
All right, time to throw down your predictions for today...
It's ENTZ's regatta/cup to lose right now with their big lead in points. I'd be willing to bet they were out yesterday perfecting their crew-work, while the engineers were pounding Red Bull and keyboards to figure out the next speed tweak.
The ENTZ afterguard showed they can play boat/boat tactics well, but can they keep OTUSA's potential upwind speed delta at bay? Have they a trick or two yet to play?
OTUSA showed huge speed potential, and better transitions. It's a long uphill slog to claw the points back to their side, but if anyone can do it the Jimmy/Benny/Slingsby afterguard can. If they could drop the mono-tactic mindset (really? Drop off a foil and pass astern is fast?) and continue to own starts it could get really interesting.
What will the tides be today? Will we have to listen to endless drivel about the "Cone behind Alcatraz"? Or will it revert to the "all hail the lee-bow"?
Above all I am very happy that nothing has broken on either boat. I'd hate the cup to go to anyone based on default because of equipment failure.
Not disagreeing, but I'd be MUCH more impressed if that were written by anyone other than an organizer...
Mike
It is a little self inflating but he's got some room to call out all the negative articles that are silent at the moment. They're finally experiencing what they had envisioned after what appeared to be a runaway train of disappointment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1302:09 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
All right, time to throw down your predictions for today...
It's ENTZ's regatta/cup to lose right now with their big lead in points. I'd be willing to bet they were out yesterday perfecting their crew-work, while the engineers were pounding Red Bull and keyboards to figure out the next speed tweak.
The ENTZ afterguard showed they can play boat/boat tactics well, but can they keep OTUSA's potential upwind speed delta at bay? Have they a trick or two yet to play?
OTUSA showed huge speed potential, and better transitions. It's a long uphill slog to claw the points back to their side, but if anyone can do it the Jimmy/Benny/Slingsby afterguard can. If they could drop the mono-tactic mindset (really? Drop off a foil and pass astern is fast?) and continue to own starts it could get really interesting.
What will the tides be today? Will we have to listen to endless drivel about the "Cone behind Alcatraz"? Or will it revert to the "all hail the lee-bow"?
Above all I am very happy that nothing has broken on either boat. I'd hate the cup to go to anyone based on default because of equipment failure.
I don't know what's next (which is what is pretty cool about it). Oracle has a mountain to climb but could they come out with something else to help them increase their speed and agility further? The changes they've made since they started racing NZ are pretty dramatic but they are going to need to find a little more advantage to have a chance at keeping NZ from winning two more. Or, rather, does NZ go to the drawing board and come up with something to counter and end this thing now? I still think NZ takes it all at this point - it's theirs to lose...but Oracle is going to go down swinging.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1302:21 PM
The way I see it happening - two days of splits.
The way I want it to happen - Oracle comes back from behind and wins the thing by 1 point - making this cup perhaps the best come from behind story in sporting history.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1303:02 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
The way I see it happening - two days of splits.
The way I want it to happen - Oracle comes back from behind and wins the thing by 1 point - making this cup perhaps the best come from behind story in sporting history.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1303:30 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
The way I see it happening - two days of splits.
The way I want it to happen - Oracle comes back from behind and wins the thing by 1 point - making this cup perhaps the best come from behind story in sporting history.
Holy Crap that would be cool. It would undoubtedly end up in all mainstream media even though ENTZ was originally the "from humble beginnings" team, right?
A run on the table by OTUSA is needed to get back in the game, which could look boring... But throw in an ENTZ win in the middle and the fans would practically freak out..
Given neither team appears to have what it takes (anymore) to run away with it, we could be in for a most exciting few days of close fought sailing.
As I see it currently, it's whomever makes the fewest mistakes will win the race (and possibly the regatta)... isn't that what makes racing great?
And you know what? I'd pay money to ride in either of these boats.. Fully geared up with double DEPENZ on.
Imagine trying to run uphill across an open trampoline foiling at 48 knots with spray. WTF indeed...
Holy get-out-of-town, batman. They're talking to Ernesto Bertarelli? Purveyor of poop on the cup and all it stands for?
Originally Posted by Grant Dalton
In terms of syndicates interested in competing in Auckland, talk at this stage is cheap. But definitely Luna Rossa, and Ernesto Bertarelli has contacted me a few times, and there is a strong American syndicate, not Oracle, another one that has reached out to me. - See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...tions-grant-dalton/#sthash.U7XEjRUw.dpuf
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1306:46 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
What's the channel dujour today?
NBCSN and YouTube internationally. Use my previously posted work around for YouTube in North America. Also Virtual Eye and LiveLine Youtube by selecting source.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1307:28 PM
Wow, that St. Francis YC cam link above shows the winds are gusting to 31 (mph). Could get exciting later, if they can get started before the wind limit kicks in.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1307:29 PM
". . . we have been fairly critical of Russell Coutts, Larry Ellison and the organization they set up to run the 34th America’s Cup and our criticism stems, mainly, from the fact that very few of the promises that were made four years ago have been realized.
Our friend and acclaimed multihull sailor, Kostas Trigonis, disagrees with our wrong, in his view, opinion. Trigonis, twice World champion and six-time European champion in the Tornado class, praises in his editorial what has been achieved in the 34th America’s Cup, despite the initial shortcomings. For him the future is here and there is no turning back. The 34th America’s Cup has brought tremendous progress and it would be a pity if we went back. This is what he has to say about the current America’s Cup and what he hopes to see in the future:"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1308:22 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The Chrome extension worked fine, thanks for posting that. On my way home to watch the carnage.
No need to hurry, they are on delay awaiting lower winds, which I doubt is going to happen before their drop dead time in about an hour. They should be on for tomorrow, winds allowing of course.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1308:25 PM
Damn, just got home.
Kinda funny though, YouTube thinks I'm in I think Russia, or at least some country that uses an cyrillic alphabet that looks like it came from a calculator.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1309:00 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The Chrome extension worked fine, thanks for posting that.
Might want to remember to toggle the extension off when your done. When it is on, I find that it will slow down queries and puts google search into a clusterfauck.
If your learning how to build a bomb, might want to leave it on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1309:37 PM
Well since the racing is called off today, I guess we've got time to talk about this:
Do we think the development of these two foiling cats, the L boards in particular, will quickly trickle down into the A cat class, and perhaps other classes as well? I know they are already working with their C type lifting boards, the A's and the Nacra 20, the problem there is it's like riding on a sea-saw.
I'm talking about L boards with T rudders, foiling upwind and down, like these two boats.
I think if there were a type of moveable elevator flap on the T rudders, like the Moths use, it would be much more controllable. Maybe we could just steal a couple dagger boards and rudders off some Moths, and insert them into a light A cat, see what happens?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1309:40 PM
Something happened today that I totally couldn't have predicted even when the new cup format was announced.
I walk into Gabriels Subs down here on Edgewater drive this afternoon. Its the same sub shop that JC took me to when I first moved to town - he grew up around the corner and I go there everyday for lunch - my picture is on the wall (no joke). The ladies that work there knew that I was going on vacation and to SF. They are huge NASCAR and auto racing fans. They make a pilgrimage to Daytona every year, and they wear their Dale/Petty/Stewart shirts proudly.
Today when I went in after coming back from vacation - all three of them had WRITTEN DOWN QUESTIONS about sailing and racing because they watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of those races. They're hooked. I couldn't have predicted this in a million years. They are in love with "dreamy" Dean Barker (ooof) and think that Spithill is "fiesty" and they "Can't wait to see what he'll say next".
What is going on here?
Our passion/hobby/sport has been vaulted into the maintstream for the first time that I can remember.
I cannot imagine taking that allure away at this point.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1310:33 PM
That's because it is not a scheduled day, so DVR schedules are incorrect until they get a schedule update. More than likely, it will be broadcast on NBCSN per their license agreement. If you can, have the DVR record the series and it should get it. Replay on YouTube will be up with in a few hours of the conclusion of racing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1310:35 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well since the racing is called off today, I guess we've got time to talk about this:
Do we think the development of these two foiling cats, the L boards in particular, will quickly trickle down into the A cat class, and perhaps other classes as well? I know they are already working with their C type lifting boards, the A's and the Nacra 20, the problem there is it's like riding on a sea-saw.
I'm talking about L boards with T rudders, foiling upwind and down, like these two boats.
I think if there were a type of moveable elevator flap on the T rudders, like the Moths use, it would be much more controllable. Maybe we could just steal a couple dagger boards and rudders off some Moths, and insert them into a light A cat, see what happens?
There's a slight difference in the power plant and power management between a 72 and a beachcat. 13 story wing vs. 30 foot mast. 10 pro sailors vs. 1 or 2 non-pro sailors. They're already doing some development in the A class, but I think it will be hard to come by ( money and skills) for us mere mortals, and very possibly will never materialize as being advantageous.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1311:02 PM
Well this guy and several others are already doing it, what I'm wondering about is, the systems they are using to control their ride height. Anyone know if Frank's got T foil rudders with elevator flaps?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1311:20 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well this guy and several others are already doing it, what I'm wondering about is, the systems they are using to control their ride height. Anyone know if Frank's got T foil rudders with elevator flaps?
Yep, I said that in my post but neither of those videos shows a boat on a race course against other boats, because it hasn't happened sucessfully, in a constantly controlled manner. Hopping and flying are vastly different, you of anybody should know that. A great Litmus test is coming up in a week with the Little AC/ C class worlds. Can't wait to see how that goes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/17/1311:45 PM
I found that article by Gino Marelli very interesting, re. their designing of the foiling AC 72's. In it he said it could be done much cheaper and safer, if they were allowed to have adjustable flaps on the foils, or rudders, to control the ride height. He also said the hard wing only adds about 1-2% speed but doubles the cost, due to the wing team needed to take it down and put it up every day.
Makes me wonder if the cheaper/easier stuff will eventually trickle into the A class, like the Moth class, with more a more stable platform.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1301:25 AM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Something happened today that I totally couldn't have predicted even when the new cup format was announced.
I walk into Gabriels Subs down here on Edgewater drive this afternoon. Its the same sub shop that JC took me to when I first moved to town - he grew up around the corner and I go there everyday for lunch - my picture is on the wall (no joke). The ladies that work there knew that I was going on vacation and to SF. They are huge NASCAR and auto racing fans. They make a pilgrimage to Daytona every year, and they wear their Dale/Petty/Stewart shirts proudly.
Today when I went in after coming back from vacation - all three of them had WRITTEN DOWN QUESTIONS about sailing and racing because they watched EVERY SINGLE ONE of those races. They're hooked. I couldn't have predicted this in a million years. They are in love with "dreamy" Dean Barker (ooof) and think that Spithill is "fiesty" and they "Can't wait to see what he'll say next".
What is going on here?
Our passion/hobby/sport has been vaulted into the maintstream for the first time that I can remember.
I cannot imagine taking that allure away at this point.
We had our monthly conference call with about 65 of my colleagues spread out over North America... As always there was some spirited discussion on home town teams etc... from the previous weekend’s games. Somehow the AC came up and I was surprised on how many caught bits a pieces of it…
My counter part from NoCal was giving some great play by play details from his experience, and I was impressed with what he picked up in one weekend..
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1312:14 PM
Originally Posted by srm
I've been watching/DVRing the racing on NBSCN, but it looks like they aren't airing it tomorrow (Wed).
What are my options for catching what could possibly be the final two races of the series? Internet only? If so, where?
Thanks.
sm
Just checked my DVR and Yachting shows up for today. Even though I have it set to record the series the show for today wasn't set to record. Good idea to double check.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1312:37 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well since the racing is called off today, I guess we've got time to talk about this:
Do we think the development of these two foiling cats, the L boards in particular, will quickly trickle down into the A cat class, and perhaps other classes as well? I know they are already working with their C type lifting boards, the A's and the Nacra 20, the problem there is it's like riding on a sea-saw.
I'm talking about L boards with T rudders, foiling upwind and down, like these two boats.
I think if there were a type of moveable elevator flap on the T rudders, like the Moths use, it would be much more controllable. Maybe we could just steal a couple dagger boards and rudders off some Moths, and insert them into a light A cat, see what happens?
There's a slight difference in the power plant and power management between a 72 and a beachcat. 13 story wing vs. 30 foot mast. 10 pro sailors vs. 1 or 2 non-pro sailors. They're already doing some development in the A class, but I think it will be hard to come by ( money and skills) for us mere mortals, and very possibly will never materialize as being advantageous.
Ya think?
The AC went to the C class to get thier jump start with wings and even foils to a lesser extent.
What amazes me is that there are basically unlimited budgets and a very open box rule, yet we have in almost no time generated 2 boats who can get around the course within seconds of eachother at speeds approaching 50 knots. A minute win in the 12M days was considered a close race, now we have a 1 minute win and the anouncers are calling it a trouncing.
The A class has been proving this concept for years with new ideas and new designs, but the best sailors still win the events. The boats over time get slowly better and the class grows with it.
The new viewing technology and the boats may be generating a lot more viewership, but it is still too expensive to really try out a lot of concepts. The real proof and systems capable of actualy being used by teams less than 11 guys is still going to come out of the C class and super tallented fleet of sailors and designers they have put together for this season.
Starts this weekend bitches, and has the promise/potential to be an even better show
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1301:10 PM
Good piece on the cameras, but I got to say, they seem to always miss the action with the selection of the wrong camera, or doing a replay, etc. That's where the YouTube LiveLine channel always comes in handy as a backup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1301:23 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by srm
I've been watching/DVRing the racing on NBSCN, but it looks like they aren't airing it tomorrow (Wed).
What are my options for catching what could possibly be the final two races of the series? Internet only? If so, where?
Thanks.
sm
Just checked my DVR and Yachting shows up for today. Even though I have it set to record the series the show for today wasn't set to record. Good idea to double check.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1301:44 PM
Noticed some of the foiling cats use an adjustable dagger board type rudder --seems like a logical means of adjustment for conditions --the 72 fters have an array of different size rudders they use for that days conditions as I understand it from the TV sources.
Interesting that they named the C Class championship the Little Americas Cup back 5 + decades ago when the Americas Cup was in conventional yachts never imagining the Americas Cup actually ever being sailed on cats much less 72 ft foiling cats going at 4 times their speeds. Now the C Class has essentially become the development class for the Americas Cup-.
Those of us that have been proponents of cat sailing saw this as a natural progression --most traditional sailors --Jobson ie --were resistant to it.
One of the books that first got me interested in Cat sailing was by Reg White from the UK on cataaran racing and experiences racing C Class cats in the early days of the sport.
Here is another nice looking "petite coupe" C Class foiling cat ---
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1302:51 PM
I have a sick feeling in my stomach that we're going yo see that scene from "Wind" come to life, goes something like: "OK, we let you have your fun, now it's time to get serious and let the adults take it (back to monohulls) from here."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1305:42 PM
By chance have you seen someone new to the Moth class attempt to sail one? To say the learning curve is steep is an understatement; my friend who has tons of time driving a F16 (with vast improvement this year I might add), is a formula windsurfer etc. spent about 1 hour in the water for under 1 minute of time on the foils. That time hooked him, but he's waiting for the 2 person version with training wheels.
Good luck on your foiling beach cat design, bring it to a beach near me when it is done!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1305:59 PM
When the Bladeriders first hit the states, I sold my A-cat and bought one. I was fortunate to have the current world champion as my personal coach for a week at the US Sailing center in Miami.
At the end of the first day I would have sold you the Moth for $1. After 2 days, I was able to ride it more than 30 secs without crashing. After 5 days, I could get it up on foils and keep it there for an extended amount of time.
I brought it back to Lanier and attempted to lake sail it.
Within 6 months I had sold it to buy another A-cat.
I found that it was fantastic to sail it where there was a sea breeze. Sailing it on a lake, not so much...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1307:10 PM
I love how many of these articles portray the race as all about the boat technology and there's no sailing skill or tactical elements involved....
I'd beg to differ. While there is certainly "X" amount of performance available based on the boats, it's still all comes down to execution on the water....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1307:12 PM
I think the end of that USA Today story mentioned that....
Quote
Ironically, for all its technological prowess, the Oracle Team must pull off a string of wins to come from behind and retain the Cup, suggesting that most human elements and skill of this genteel sport are far from lost.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1307:53 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think the end of that USA Today story mentioned that....
Quote
Ironically, for all its technological prowess, the Oracle Team must pull off a string of wins to come from behind and retain the Cup, suggesting that most human elements and skill of this genteel sport are far from lost.
Good call. I mis-read it thinking they were too - referring to how all the sailing skill has been engineered out of the Cup...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1308:09 PM
Re. the sailor's skill comments; in races 9+10, we saw just how important it is to win the start, and winning the start is 100% dependent on the sailor's skills.
So skill is still very much required to win, regardless of the technology, but I realize most non-sailors (and writers) have absolutely no idea of what's actually going on in the prestart, all they see is the speeds after the start.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1308:25 PM
There have been plenty of human blunders, everything from boat handling (foiling when they don't want to, coming off foils at the wrong time, blown tacks, slow gybes, poor roundings, etc.) to bad tactics and strategy.
The technology just makes the boats so fast that the human mistakes can crush you. Of course, the same happens with the slow boats, but the distances aren't quite as magnified.
Jonson's best quote of the last few years (still not sure of he meant this as a compliment, BTW): "Match racing on steroids!"
EDOT: Relative to monohulls, the pre-starts have been pretty boring. No dial-ups, chasing each other through the spectator fleet, etc.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1308:48 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Oracle was slightly faster, just NZ ran a better race.
I got in late. leg 3/5. I hope they have a miracle turn around. It has certainly not been the slaughter I thought it would be when all of this started.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1309:22 PM
Gary Jobson says no foul, and now Mr. Murray is saying it's most likely going to be postponed to tomorrow. I think the full moon induced, extra strong ebb tide is the problem, it's running stronger now than it was earlier today. BUT...what about tomorrow? Will the tide be running out earlier, ie. at the start of the first race, at 1:15pm west coast?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1309:30 PM
See you tomorrow.
Now I've got to go walk the dogs...in between the lightning bolts!
And Mike Krantz, thanks for the Moth reality check. I was wondering if my gusty/shifty lake winds would make it to difficult. I had the same problem with my windsurfer short board when we first moved here. Gust! Haul butt, then...Nothing!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1309:36 PM
I was pulling your leg. I use Chrome Stealth, Refresh the YouTube page, then pull the time slider way to the right and release, the time mark will update to most current, that will remove the lag.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1309:38 PM
The main thing stealth does is it allows you to manage your proxy location, so you can work around the blackout in North America. Do as mentioned in previous post to remove lag.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1310:11 PM
ETNZ needs to start sandbagging now so they can maximize the airtime for their sponsors, not to mention revenue for the network. Don't they watch any other major, televised US sports playoffs/finals? NEVER finish the series early (unless you're truly the underdog).
Besides, wouldn't they prefer to finish OTUSA off in front of the larger (weekend) audience????
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/18/1311:52 PM
I wonder why Spithill can't win a start...?
It's a good thing the RC called race two today, or this AC would be over now. ETNZ was going to roll them right off the line, and somehow Jimmy couldn't see that coming?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1301:17 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
Have they won a start with Ben on the boat???
Mike
Yes...that artfully pressed way under the "published" layline to the mark when NZ said to hell with this...it's too far. Oracle then shot upwind and held NZ up until about 6 seconds after the start. That was masterful.
I thought they had them nailed in the race before this one over top while NZ was slow trying to get back to the mark. I thought they pulled the trigger too late and lost the advantage.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1311:28 AM
Honestly -I think team O should have a more agressive person at the helm to start with years of experience racing cats in large competative fleets ---many of us would do better at starting ---One skipper is the agressor -the other passive.
In Example--the last race which was called off --team N used full speed twice sailing at team o creating a gap then drove over the top at the start--something team O has never done.
Also in crossing situations and other close quarter situations team O perfers to not mix it up but always seems to back off and sail away ---You must be able to mix it up and hang right with the competition .
It is hard to watch at times --I think O has an equal or superior boat design.
Lets hope they can be more aggresive at the starts and on the course and win the next two races. Congrats to team N ON SUPERB training and sailing skills.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1312:46 PM
Key difference:
Kenny tries to connect what you see in this regatta to what he calls "normal" boats/sails/racing. Clearly, this can be irritating when he gets it wrong.
Jobson wastes no opportunity to tell you that he won (as a tactician, who always take credit for everything) this event nearly 40 years ago. This is irritating 110% of the time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1312:55 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
Honestly -I think team O should have a more agressive person at the helm to start with years of experience racing cats in large competative fleets ---many of us would do better at starting.
Do you really think many of us that are sitting on the sidelines would do a better job? Just how much experience do you have on wing sailed foiling catamarans?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1301:29 PM
I know I for one could luff up at speed and hit ETNZ pretty hard! Maybe even put a huge hole in their stupid flying boat, take my penalty turn and sail away!
;^)
HIT HIM JIMMY!!
What have you got to lose at this point? It's not like they are going to use these boats ever again!
What is it the NASCAR guys say?
"Rubbin's Racing!"
Give him the Darlington Stripe!
Oh, and on the stupid comments by Kenny and Garry, remember, they are speaking to an equally stupid audience of 90% mono racers or non-sailors. What did you expect?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1301:47 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by Carl
Honestly -I think team O should have a more agressive person at the helm to start with years of experience racing cats in large competative fleets ---many of us would do better at starting.
Do you really think many of us that are sitting on the sidelines would do a better job? Just how much experience do you have on wing sailed foiling catamarans?
NOPE!!!! And based on the performance of the "multihull" skipper in the AC45 teams ETNZL and OTUSA have the top two skippers getting the job done! Jimmy and team are just getting out sailed.
For those that constantly cry about these mono guys getting it wrong, you do realize how little you all race and how much time you spend here, right?
And Tad, I don't know what your beef is with Grant and Dean they are wonderfully pleasant chaps, maybe it's you.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1301:52 PM
I don't really have a problem with Dean - other than the fact that I don't think he's very charismatic. He's hard to connect to as an profession athlete. He's a very talented sailor and I can really respect that. Jimmy is just much more personable and likable I think.
Dalton has a long history of shooting off at the mouth. He's perpetually going on and on about what he sees as injustices/mistakes/whatever. He just never seems happy and I wonder why he ever entered in the first place if he's so pissed off with the whole spectacle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1301:53 PM
The individual is very likeable and seems competent--though I don't think an Aussie or NZ accent is essential to good racing skills.
The record of starts won and lost speaks for itself .
Many with decades of catamaran racing experience in large competative fleets understands the importance of getting the start , knowing your boat --how long a particular manuever or counter move takes and judging speed to distance to hit the line at full speed at the gun --it is often 50% of the race --read any book on cat racing --it will basically state the same.
The belief that you are fully prepared -ready --able and deserve to win is essential --
Suggested reading for Spithill the phsycology of winning --by Elvestrom
"I must concentrate 100% on the new race in order to prove to myself that I am faster than the others." When going to windward you often see another competitor going off on his own hoping that he can pick up a lucky windshift in order to take the lead - this is pure chance-racing. In 99.9 % of cases he will lose. " "
I must concentrate 100% on the new race in order to prove to myself that I am faster than the others." When going to windward you often see another competitor going off on his own hoping that he can pick up a lucky windshift in order to take the lead - this is pure chance-racing. In 99.9 % of cases he will lose. " "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:05 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Dalton has a long history of shooting off at the mouth. He's perpetually going on and on about what he sees as injustices/mistakes/whatever. He just never seems happy and I wonder why he ever entered in the first place if he's so pissed off with the whole spectacle.
I knew there was a reason why I liked that guy but couldn't put my finger on it, thanks.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:09 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by Carl
Honestly -I think team O should have a more agressive person at the helm to start with years of experience racing cats in large competative fleets ---many of us would do better at starting.
Do you really think many of us that are sitting on the sidelines would do a better job? Just how much experience do you have on wing sailed foiling catamarans?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:10 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
The individual is very likeable and seems competent--though I don't think an Aussie or NZ accent is essential to good racing skills.
The record of starts won and lost speaks for itself .
Many with decades of catamaran racing experience in large competative fleets understands the importance of getting the start , knowing your boat --how long a particular manuever or counter move takes and judging speed to distance to hit the line at full speed at the gun --it is often 50% of the race --read any book on cat racing --it will basically state the same.
The belief that you are fully prepared -ready --able and deserve to win is essential --
Suggested reading for Spithill the phsycology of winning --by Elvestrom
"I must concentrate 100% on the new race in order to prove to myself that I am faster than the others." When going to windward you often see another competitor going off on his own hoping that he can pick up a lucky windshift in order to take the lead - this is pure chance-racing. In 99.9 % of cases he will lose. " "
I must concentrate 100% on the new race in order to prove to myself that I am faster than the others." When going to windward you often see another competitor going off on his own hoping that he can pick up a lucky windshift in order to take the lead - this is pure chance-racing. In 99.9 % of cases he will lose. " "
Wow! You really do underestimate these guys and there dedication to the sport. Psssttt! They are paying the bills with there skills you know that right?
Do you really think that getting a good start is any less important in a monohull race? If so, you've never raced a monohull and if you have you weren't paying attention.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:15 PM
Come on. You don't have to race every day to have a valid opinion and know when they made an obvious mistake that is based on a move that works in monohulls but not in cats.
BTW, we're equally as vocal when they screw up in monohull versions of the AC. It's not always hard to find the mistakes. Would we make them (and probably more)? Of course, but we're not being paid six figures (plus) and going on TV...
I never said I could beat these guys, but being given the training, support and time on the water is an opportunity any of us would love to try.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:23 PM
Just returned from SF. Spent Sat/Sun in front of the GGYC watching the races. If you think these things are impressive on UTTUBE you have got to see them live(to bad this may be the last time this class of boat will ever be raced). The near capsize on Saturday had everyone on shore doing the gasp and exhale. Besides the cup races just watching the sailboat eye candy was worth the trip.
Some side notes. A large of sailboats on the bay just sailing during the cup races. As in, not really interested I would rather be sailing then watching AC races sailing. Inside scoop is that NZ alrady has a 1st class ticket from SF to NZ under the name of THE CUP. Talking to a guy who had spent some time in the Kiwi camp he saide that if they win it will be back to monos(about 60 ft) with strong nationality rules. The idea is to make it more affordable and get more teams.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:26 PM
David typed "Jimmy and team are just getting out sailed. "
Exactly --so what should team O do ?-continue to get outsailed --or change -adapt --overcome ?
If they believe they are being outsailed --they have already lost. Listening to the other skippers on TV who lost --they blamed it on team N having foiling tech sooner and more time on the boat ---if they believe that they have already lost.
"" ;] Yoda --from Davids byline quotes --funny but true
Actually the fat lady has already sung. If you think otherwise your in denial. She's been recorded. They are going to use the Liveline Graphics to put her mug on the bay right at the start. Because when the next race starts it's game over.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:47 PM
since when has any AC been "affordable"? This ain't the friggin Special Olympics...
Was Sir Lipton's campaign(s) "Affordable"?
Was the 12 meter campaign really "affordable"?
maybe define "affordable"... It's certainly affordable for the two finalists right now, and even some of the challenger teams..
It's always been a "yachting" event between uber-rich... why mess with it?
When else would you see this sort of technology/engineering really get tested on the world stage without some big $$ and ego behind it?
Would any of us even dream of foiling ANYTHING if we just watched 12 meter OD classes going round and round? Having watched the AC finals, it seems everyone all the sudden wants a foiling boat (cat, mono, swim fins, goldfish, etc)
heck, would anyone even watch the AC without these strange flying beasts? It was hard watching AC events of the past even when i WAS rooting for a particular team.. (the paint-drying analogy)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:48 PM
But it is very small things that are killing O. Stuffed bow on the run to mark 1 in race 10. 1 bad tack at the top mark in race 11. Just shows how close the racing is. The real handicap is the courses, they are so short that if you make one mistake there is no time to recover.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:49 PM
yes, but that same short course helps cut the pain of watching a runaway race... When one boat was totally dominating the other (didn't matter which team), it seemed like the race couldn't end soon enough...
It is funny to think that a 1 minute delta between winner and loser is a total beat-down. What short attention span I have now...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:52 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Come on. You don't have to race every day to have an valid opinion and know when they made an obvious mistake that is based on a move that works in monohulls but not in cats.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:53 PM
Carl, You're way off base with your preconceptions of Spithill. He is the more aggressive skipper of the two and is probably one, if not THE most aggressive pro match racer out there. He does not believe they are beaten. Ding has it right (glad to see the OLD Ding back ,by the way). Tad, Would you prefer Dalt's lawyer do all his whining for him ala Ellison. It's the AC: Rich whiners with expensive boats. Always has been, always will.I respect Grant Dalton for his no BS attitude. A bunch of you talk about the AC like it's a local club regatta that will change to your inconsequential whim. IT'S THE OLDEST SPORTING TROPHY. Hate it or love it. And for you guys hating on Ken Read you do know he owns an M-32 that sits at sail newport. Mike you had to know this. He's been getting suckered in to the commentator disease of blather, but it's ALMOST understandable considering how much time they've had to fill with the Bullshite wind limits killing races. It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by dodo birds. How come nobody pointed out what an obnoxious turd that Green guy is? He's way out of his league, unless his league is being irritating.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:53 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
But it is very small things that are killing O. Stuffed bow on the run to mark 1 in race 10. 1 bad tack at the top mark in race 11. Just shows how close the racing is. The real handicap is the courses, they are so short that if you make one mistake there is no time to recover.
I don't know about the last part. If the only problem were the length of the course, teams behind wouldn't keep getting further behind.
I do have issues with fairness of the course in a flood tide, but wouldn't change the location for exposure reasons.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:56 PM
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat
Come on. You don't have to race every day to have an valid opinion and know when they made an obvious mistake that is based on a move that works in monohulls but not in cats.
Mike
Fixed it for you.
Does that make you feel better?
SA move worthy of an SA response, I'm not stooping to that level.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1302:57 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
since when has any AC been "affordable"? This ain't the friggin Special Olympics...
Was Sir Lipton's campaign(s) "Affordable"?
Was the 12 meter campaign really "affordable"?
maybe define "affordable"... It's certainly affordable for the two finalists right now, and even some of the challenger teams..
It's always been a "yachting" event between uber-rich... why mess with it?
When else would you see this sort of technology/engineering really get tested on the world stage without some big $$ and ego behind it?
Would any of us even dream of foiling ANYTHING if we just watched 12 meter OD classes going round and round? Having watched the AC finals, it seems everyone all the sudden wants a foiling boat (cat, mono, swim fins, goldfish, etc)
heck, would anyone even watch the AC without these strange flying beasts? It was hard watching AC events of the past even when i WAS rooting for a particular team.. (the paint-drying analogy)
Precisely.
If I want to watch 60' monos race around then I can go to the yacht club and watch J24's dink around like rubber duckies in a bathtub. I don't want an "affordable" yacht race.
I want a spectacle.
I want something that I can show to my friends and coworkers and say "LOOK HOW COOL SAILING IS GUYS" and have them say "Wow ok this is awesome, what have I been missing out on?"
60 foot monos is snoozefest. I know orphan said that he spoke to kiwis saying that, but I spoke to a couple that said the opposite. I don't think we'll see AC72's in the next rendition of the AC but I think we'll see a smaller multihull. Maybe a MOD70 trimaran?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1303:05 PM
Um, yes I do know about the cats in Newport, as I've mentioned several times in this very thread. Try to keep up...
Kenny is (by far) the only one worth listening to (I've said that more than a few times too). He just needs to shake a few habits.
The Volvo boats were probably the fastest monohulls we'd be likely to see in this type of race. Nothing will ever compare to the AC72s. Going downwind without kites is just unreal...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1303:09 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
But it is very small things that are killing O. Stuffed bow on the run to mark 1 in race 10. 1 bad tack at the top mark in race 11. Just shows how close the racing is. The real handicap is the courses, they are so short that if you make one mistake there is no time to recover.
At the pointy end of the fleet racing is ALWAYS about who can make the least number of mistakes. The Kiwi's seem to have this part of the game very well sorted.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1303:22 PM
David --Todd and all -I mean no disrespect in the criticsm but what is the start won lost RECORD ?
I HAVE NOTHING BUT ADMIRATION FOR ALL THOSE RACING --
IT IS TRUELY AMAZING and I wish I could experience those catsailing speeds first hand .
My own experiences include professional sailing { back in the late 80s } in PROSAIL and the Ultimate Yacht races --also shown on NBC Sports at that time --so understand completely how the game and sport changes at that level .
I,ve been away from racing several years but recovering and hope to be back on the race course soon .hopefully on a foiling cat of some type ;]
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1304:07 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
since when has any AC been "affordable"? This ain't the friggin Special Olympics...
Was Sir Lipton's campaign(s) "Affordable"?
Was the 12 meter campaign really "affordable"?
maybe define "affordable"... It's certainly affordable for the two finalists right now, and even some of the challenger teams..
It's always been a "yachting" event between uber-rich... why mess with it?
When else would you see this sort of technology/engineering really get tested on the world stage without some big $$ and ego behind it?
Would any of us even dream of foiling ANYTHING if we just watched 12 meter OD classes going round and round? Having watched the AC finals, it seems everyone all the sudden wants a foiling boat (cat, mono, swim fins, goldfish, etc)
heck, would anyone even watch the AC without these strange flying beasts? It was hard watching AC events of the past even when i WAS rooting for a particular team.. (the paint-drying analogy)
Foiling is Everywhere now! Foiling Windsurfers, foiling kite surfers;
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1304:22 PM
I,m currently installing foils on my 1995 Cadillac Deville Concourse--should increase mpg by a substantial amount ;]
Funny --I recall the 12 meter A C races when winglets on the bottom of the keel was the design breakthrough ---suddenly you saw winglet keels everywhere --so --we need to be a little carefull about getting caught up in the current designs --but it seems foiling and higher sailing speeds are here to stay.It looks like great fun too .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1304:26 PM
It's easy speed, now that the AC boys have done the R+D work, I'm waiting for the trickle down to get to us. As I've been saying since Gino Morelli brought it up, they (we) need to work on an adjustable flap to adjust the ride height.
The Moth guys have figured it out, we just need to adapt it to our steering system. Looks like Frank Camas has it figured out on that Flying Phantom too. Anyone know what he's using on his rudders for elevator controls?
Here's something easier, for you 'over 50' guys. A guy on my lake has one, I've seen him do some flips, but not over my dock...yet!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1304:53 PM
From my buddy Robert who I've gotten hooked .... again, never stepped on a sailboat in his life...
Quote
Robert It's a damn shame we're not going to see much more of this boat So much fun to watch these races. I really can't think of another sport I've enjoyed spectating as much as this America's Cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1306:20 PM
I have to wonder if Dean'o and the boys at ETNZ will 'throw us a bone' and give Oracle a race or two, today and tomorrow, and try to win it on Saturday in front of a much larger crowd.
Of course, they'll lose most of the TV spectators in the USA by racing on Saturday, going up against the NCAA Football games.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1308:11 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
yes, but that same short course helps cut the pain of watching a runaway race... When one boat was totally dominating the other (didn't matter which team), it seemed like the race couldn't end soon enough...
It is funny to think that a 1 minute delta between winner and loser is a total beat-down. What short attention span I have now...
The irony here, of course, is that those were two lappers.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1308:14 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's easy speed, now that the AC boys have done the R+D work, I'm waiting for the trickle down to get to us. As I've been saying since Gino Morelli brought it up, they (we) need to work on an adjustable flap to adjust the ride height.
The Moth guys have figured it out, we just need to adapt it to our steering system. Looks like Frank Camas has it figured out on that Flying Phantom too. Anyone know what he's using on his rudders for elevator controls?
Here's something easier, for you 'over 50' guys. A guy on my lake has one, I've seen him do some flips, but not over my dock...yet!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1308:43 PM
31-second win for Oracle!!!
I was ready to throw my phone across the room when ETNZ took the bottom left of the start box, but Jimmy finally reached down, grabbed a set, and took charge! Best start of the regatta!!!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1308:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Looks like Oracle's strategy is to foil upwind as much as possible. They where doing 33.5kts upwind just now, insane.
The bigger jib today really helped, but now, between races, they are taking it off for a smaller jib. The wind is building a little but if the bigger jib is working, helping them foil upwind, why change it??
Is the ebb difference of what, 2kts, going to increase their apparent wind that much? The forecast true wind is supposed to go from 17 to 21...? That's 4kts, plus the ebb of 2, total of 6 more knots of apparent wind, I guess that's enough to justify the smaller jib.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1309:27 PM
DAMMIT!! I've got to go back to Dubai tomorrow, I'll miss the next 4 days of racing. Seems like until the moon phase changes and the ebb subsides, they'll only get in one race per day, unless they decide to start earlier in the day on Friday or Saturday.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1309:52 PM
"However, a confident looking Ainslie never appeared phased by the steady gains the New Zealand boat made on the early part of the beat. Crouched in the middle of the platform between the two hulls, he never took his eyes of the Kiwis; calling for foiling when required and timing his cover tacks to perfection. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/1310:05 PM
It's too bad they waited so long to get aggressive (and better at boat handling), the odds are still way against them not losing one before winning it all...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1301:03 AM
I think its clear now that its Oracle that has found the extra gear upwind. When they get up on foils they are a good 2 to 3 knots faster than ETNZ in the same patch of water.
I too wish that Oracle has figured this out sooner. The in-house two boat testing obviously wasn't competitive enough and it took a desperate motivation to squeeze the performance out of the boat.
Those tacks today were nearly all flawless. I mean it was like they did a wheelie then settled down on the new tack on the new leward hull already drawing air in the wing... incredible.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1301:54 AM
I think they're doing something weird when foiling upwind. They don't seem to want to do it all the time. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the wind pressure, wind angle, and/or current. I understood that Ainsley was calling for foiling and not foiling on the upwind leg.
It's still very much about the start. NZ was still knocking on the door upwind and Oracle had to play it just right. Man, it's fun watching them turn and burn around the top of the course.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1303:28 AM
I kinda wish they had kept the course more like a conventional course, with an upwind start and at least two upwind legs, two downwind, then turn and burn around a downwind mark to the offset finish line as they do now, but with more upwind work.
I realize they were trying to keep it right up close to the city front for the spectators, which is excellent and unprecedented, but a little more 'tactical' start and course would have been nice too. As it is now, you know they are both going to try to run off on starboard from the start for that short blast reach to the first mark, then it's a drag race with the lead boat getting very far ahead right away.
I'd have them start at the bottom, like a normal race, and have the entire upwind leg to swap tacks and places, before they turn downwind and separate.
Still, it is very much more exciting than any of the five previous America's Cup races I've seen...they were like watching paint dry becuase once one boat got in front, it was all over.
Not so with these boats, one bad tack or gybe is really going to hurt when the other guy is going 30-40 knots!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1312:55 PM
nice to have a video of the flyby. I had only seen pictures.
Tony you really should have made the trip... it truly is awesome to be there. I went in with mixed expectations and was totally blown away by the setup and the execution of the operation there on the ground in SF.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1301:52 PM
I'm going to leave home early, try to make it to ATL in time to watch it on the big screen TV in the pilot lounge today, if the nit wits aren't watching Golf or something else, then about 10:20pm I'll be on my way back to Dubai.
Have fun boys, I hope Jimmy can pull off another great start.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1302:54 PM
Hey Jake --you were the one with GPS on his wrist checking VMG S and very good at Navagation etc --I think that is what team O achieved by doing "something weird "upwind--A BETTER VMG upwind angle. The TV stats indicated a lower faster course sailed with better VMG . Jobson also mentioned he saw team O slide sideways a couple times upwind. This must be from attaining higher speeds by sailing a slightly lower -close reaching type angle then inadvertantly sometimes lifting on the foils as higher speed is reached . Going upwind surface foiling must be a delicate balance of angle vs speed keeping the radius board in the water for lateral resistance { from slipping sideways} . As a gust hits it must temporarily jump them up .
The designer in me can't help wonder if the foils were reversed --angled outward rather than tucked in towards the other windward hull, --that they would not provide much more lateral resistance upwind and the posibilty of foiling upwind most likely at close reach angles.
Seems team O has found a better upwind angle VMG than team N .
DISCLAIMER --i intend no disrespect to any person or team in observations -comments and constructive criticsms made --{joking a little here }
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1303:03 PM
Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. Classic tactics while ahead after rounding the leeward mark is to sail upwind until your opponant is rounding then tack . This places your boat directly upwind from your opponant able to loosely cover in either direction .
The choise is made by the belief that while ahead you are in better wind pressure and towards the favored lift --BUT --gains made in match racing are all relative to the other boat --they need to settle for smaller potential gains and at least a loose cover on tean N . Instead we saw them split upwind yesterday --a potential mistake when they can not afford any . Lets hope they keep at least a loose cover when ahead .They are faster now --no reason not to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1303:18 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. Classic tactics while ahead after rounding the leeward mark is to sail upwind until your opponant is rounding then tack . This places your boat directly upwind from your opponant able to loosely cover in either direction .
The choise is made by the belief that while ahead you are in better wind pressure and towards the favored lift --BUT --gains made in match racing are all relative to the other boat --they need to settle for smaller potential gains and at least a loose cover on tean N . Instead we saw them split upwind yesterday --a potential mistake when they can not afford any . Lets hope they keep at least a loose cover when ahead .They are faster now --no reason not to.
{double check previous disclaimer ;] }
While in the lead, Oracle is getting to the preferred side of the course. The guy behind seems to just split for the sake of splitting even if it puts them in a statistically less favorable position.
-Ding, divert your eyes...I'm going to speculate and imagine I know what I know something for the sake of discussion
I am also surprised that the boat behind is so quick to split and gamble on the opposite side of the course when it's proven to be less of an advantage in either current and/or pressure. I guess if you have committed yourself to the belief that you can't sail faster/higher than your competitor it makes sense to split and roll the dice...but I'm not sure either team has a clear advantages even in the normal wind speed differences across the course on a single upwind leg. Maybe it's a throw back to the larger wind disturbances mono-hulls create. A cat (particularly an uber-efficiently winged one) isn't going to disturb as much air and slow you down unless you are right on top of each other.
As far as devices go, these guys have flip down tablets bunjied to their chests...I would love to see what they are seeing on those displays! I'm also in the process of making a spandex device sleeve like they have so I can quit losing GPS units.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1303:57 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. }
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1304:38 PM
Hey Todd
Wow -I,ll never forget the stay snapping and mast falling over while we were on the Cape Hatterous leg of the W -1000--MILE RACE --talk about tidal currents WHEWW ! The Gulf Stream and Labadore currents colliding at the Cape.
Racing in Charleston harbor -Long Island Sound --Newport harbor -Corpus Cristi TX -the huge tidal currents along the N Carolina Virginia coast --or Tybee Island -etc --just like San Fran all have similar tidal currents. Most of us have sailed in something similar and can relate to it--Sarnia -Port Huron MI --Great Lakes where Lk Huron flows into the St Clair River at the Blue Water bridge --lots of frieghter traffic too--has a 5 mph current --it is brutal--you have to hug the shore.
Let me put the importance of a loose cover another way ---If you were on the last race of a major regatta and had to beat one boat to win the regatta --would you split tacks and sides of the course on the last upwind beat providing the only possible means of that one boat passing you --a fluke windshift ie , --or would you loosely cover the one boat staying between him and the finish ?
The only gain made by team N during the entire race yesterday -race 12 --was when they split tacks and sides of the course --lETS HOPE THEY DON'T OPEN THE DOOR WHEN AHEAD AGAIN .
Jake made a good point of how readily the boat behind splits and often goes to the less favored side instead of trying to mix it up and grind the other boat down to close the gap.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1306:05 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
Hey Todd
Wow -I,ll never forget the stay snapping and mast falling over while we were on the Cape Hatterous leg of the W -1000--MILE RACE --talk about tidal currents WHEWW ! The Gulf Stream and Labadore currents colliding at the Cape.
Racing in Charleston harbor -Long Island Sound --Newport harbor -Corpus Cristi TX -the huge tidal currents along the N Carolina Virginia coast --or Tybee Island -etc --just like San Fran all have similar tidal currents. Most of us have sailed in something similar and can relate to it--Sarnia -Port Huron MI --Great Lakes where Lk Huron flows into the St Clair River at the Blue Water bridge --lots of frieghter traffic too--has a 5 mph current --it is brutal--you have to hug the shore.
Let me put the importance of a loose cover another way ---If you were on the last race of a major regatta and had to beat one boat to win the regatta --would you split tacks and sides of the course on the last upwind beat providing the only possible means of that one boat passing you --a fluke windshift ie , --or would you loosely cover the one boat staying between him and the finish ?
The only gain made by team N during the entire race yesterday -race 12 --was when they split tacks and sides of the course --lETS HOPE THEY DON'T OPEN THE DOOR WHEN AHEAD AGAIN .
Jake made a good point of how readily the boat behind splits and often goes to the less favored side instead of trying to mix it up and grind the other boat down to close the gap.
good observation and spot on .
I completely understand the validity of a cover in match racing, but the gains are relative to the losses and if you are skipping a 3 knot current in a boat doing 30 knots just to cover, then you are not taking advantage of the gains you earned as a lead boat. Alot of folks criticizing these tactics forget that the exceptional boatspeed moves this into a new realm. Your thought process works great at 1/3 the speed, but if you use it at this speed ,you better sail flawlessly i.e. never come off the foils because that alone will cost you 3 to 4 boat lengths. If you do cover and make a small mistake you just lost your lead, and will most definitely have the peanut gallery as well as your boss questioning why you didn't split and take advantage of the 3 knot current boost. If you use the "triple the wind speed" formula for the current, that's a 9 knot speed advantage over the boat on the other side of the course. That's huge. They've got the patterns there covered and have weighed the loss vs. gain scenarios. Not to say they can't be caught out, but this isn't club racing. In the same vein, you better get your current call right and get the advantage or the cover is the safe bet. TNZ should be playing it safe and Oracle should be all in, "safe" hasn't seemed to work so well for them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1306:29 PM
I checked my schedule using a web browser and a phone app and it's there, might want to check that. You can power cycle (unplug) your DVR, let it reboot and that should force a schedule update.
Race 13 starts today at 13:15 PDT (8:15 NZST, 22:15 CEST) Race 14 at 14:15 if needed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1307:04 PM
Hard to tell from this picture but looks like Oracle has installed their sprit pole There was light winds forecast last night for today but wind has been building.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1307:24 PM
Mixed reports: "The original forecast called for winds of 10 to 15 knots with clouds increasing throughout the afternoon. But Regatta Director Iain Murray says the wind is already building.
“It’s getting windier than that on racecourse. Already it’s blowing 15-18 knots at Anita Rock, in the sheltered part of San Francisco Bay, and more than that on Treasure Island,” said Murray."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1307:25 PM
the decision to foil upwind is one that was taken very late in the Oracle campaign, but now they are learning fast and can out perform the Kiwis uphill. I'm also hearing that you sail these boats as if they have distinct gears rather than a sliding scale of performance for a given true wind angle. In other words you can't trade a couple of degrees for a few knots it's either pop it up or sail in displacement mode. Typically two of these gears might be 22knots boat speed at 40 degrees true or 30knots boat speed at 48 degrees true, the latter being the filing gear.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1308:54 PM
Its the best damn AC in history - and the kiwis are totally going to throw out everything having to do with it.
ACEA will be gone... an independent body that governs the event? WHO NEEDS THAT? Legitimacy in the eyes of the world media? NAWWW... I mean.. the NFL doesn't need a commissioner - why does the AC require an independent governing body?
Look for the kiwis to institute strict nationality rules so that they hold the cup in perpetuity.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1309:17 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Timbo
Wow, has anyone on Oracle ever raced a catamaran downwind in light air???
I could just imagine Ashby on ETNZ saying "here guys let me handle this" and heating up like they're supposed to on a multihull.
There is a point where heading up just doesn't work anymore though (with F18s anyway). Sometimes sailing low really works, but the AC72's sails are just too flat for this.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1310:18 PM
My ****ing heart can't take this **** anymore.
I was literally almost on the verge of tears in the first race... freaked out at the start of the second... pacing back and fro like a man waiting outside the delivery room....
This is incredible. The emotional highs and lows. Good lord I can only imagine how kiwis fans feel right now. Its simply incredible.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1310:20 PM
All I gotta say is WOW! WTF! Holy shiot!
Regardless of who wins this thing - incredible racing....
That said - GO ORACLE! Great race #2. I gotta be honest, I was shocked to see them close down the NZ lead so quickly and basically hammer down! Wicked close cross. Def a penalty. Almost lost someone off the deck avoiding the crash too!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1310:28 PM
Wow what a day. ETNZ escaping the hook, I would have respected a win after that. But, what a turnaround!
I don't know about that foul from the camera angles. How did it look on Virtual Eye or the umpire replay? Took a while to make that call. I agree about the joke of a "penalty" and think they should have to do at least a one-turn penalty in the opposite direction (tack if they were headed downwind).
I've noticed the weird panting too (during the entire event), and have often wondered who it is, and why they don't turn off the poor guy's mic. But, not once did that ever make me think about sex with a chick. I really don't think I ever want to meet any of your exes...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1312:49 PM
I agree, this has been the best AC ever. Even my wife is sitting on the edge of her seat watching with me. I don't even have to reminder her to set the DVR to record when "yachting" not in the list. After Race 13, she even posted on facebook before I did, and said this...
"Wow. That cat has 9 lives!! I can't believe I've enjoyed watching it as much as I have! My favorite part - when race one gets called and you hear " fu*#ing a*%hole" screamed on new zealand's boat and the commentator says " we hear some frustration on the kiwi boat" Hilarious!"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1307:00 PM
Forecast is for the wind (currently SW) to clock around W through race time and about 12 to 13k. I don't think the course is setup for that wind direction. It doesn't look good for racing today.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1307:05 PM
They can set the course in 5 minutes if needed. They should be getting set up in anticipation of the shift. However, they'd want to give it time to really settle in before starting.
Whats hilarious about all this is that if there wasn't all the boat-on-boat action after the start at Mark 1, the kiwis would have very likely been able to finish the race. I think Oracle soaked like 3 or 4 minutes at the top of the course trying to shut the door on the kiwis at Mark 1.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1308:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
I've noticed the weird panting too (during the entire event), and have often wondered who it is, and why they don't turn off the poor guy's mic. But, not once did that ever make me think about sex with a chick. I really don't think I ever want to meet any of your exes...
Mike
I don't know what my ex's think, but my wife is sitting here watching the replay with me and she thought it sounded like humping.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1308:39 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by brucat
I've noticed the weird panting too (during the entire event), and have often wondered who it is, and why they don't turn off the poor guy's mic. But, not once did that ever make me think about sex with a chick. I really don't think I ever want to meet any of your exes...
Mike
I don't know what my ex's think, but my wife is sitting here watching the replay with me and she thought it sounded like humping.
So that reminded her of you? This really isn't getting any better...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/21/1311:33 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
(Yes she's a die hard AC fan now)
Mine too, oddly enough. I said to her "wouldn't it be fun to be out on the water and race?" she then said something about the wind... dunno, I wasn't really paying attention
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/22/1310:17 PM
There is a certain frustration and feeling of having lesser board speed on team N --you could hear it in the post race interview. After winning earlier races with better speed tacks gybes and roundings NOW an uncertainty . The tactics reflexed that uncertainty . Many of us have been there AND KNOW THE FEELING.
GREAT RACES by team O --THE AREA OF IMPROVEMENT might be practising time and distance + accelerationto the start line, they hesitated a few seconds too long in both races--evan Jobson noted it !
GREAT RACING congrats to all sailing and all involved --WHAT A SHOW !
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/22/1310:22 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Without the jury penalties the score would have been 7-8 right now.
Even with the penalties, this has been a much closer event than anyone would have guessed. I was expecting basically a total blowout by one of the teams and it looks like it really could all come down to the last race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/22/1310:24 PM
Hey, I can say (easily) that I was wrong. Jimmy and the boys did a great job today. Dean and Ray looked uncomfortable and uncertain all day long. Fell for the same start twice and overstood the bottom repeatedly. Gybed into the great nothing when it meant everything. I rarely yell at my TV, but guilty of it today. Full marks, Oracle!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/22/1310:24 PM
Maybe it's because I grew up in New England, and am conditioned to expect the wheels to fall off the bus at the very end of any major championship/playoff series, but I still can't see Oracle winning four more before NZ wins one.
For the same reason, I can't believe they won both today. I really expected them to lose the first one at the top half of the beat. High and slow, staying in the foul current, wow... Still not sure why ETNZ didn't tack back to shore, may have been a huge game changer.
Very happy to be proven wrong on this, of course!!!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/22/1310:26 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Tony, NBCSN is ridiculous with the replays and commercials during races.
Larry has to at least recover a little bit of his investment by commercials for his company. If you turned it on early during last week. you got to see Babe Winkleman expounding on the virtues of crossbow hunting. How many commercials for the NFL, MLB or any other televised event?
This is everything that I hoped for and more. I wish I hadn't lost my Beta tapes of the Stars and Stripes Cat vs Michael Faye's mono monstrosity. Every once in a while by accident I will see Sea View TV which has after the fact coverage of the VOR and the Extreme 40 Cats.
No comparison.
My wife was at a meeting of the board of the local historical society and one of her old friends who is also on the board was in San Francisco to see the races and visit her sister. Even a high school English teacher was impressed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1310:27 AM
This article appeared on the front page of SA and shortly after it was put up it was removed.
If the tax stuff is true then might we see a Protocol 60 action against the Kiwi's? Maybe docked two points?
I think the fat lady has gone home for now.
dumb and dumber
AC Dope
Suddenly they are slower than Oracle and tactically hesitant if not just plain stupid. They look as dumb or dumber than Oracle did in the first four races.
But off the water they look even more like idiots.
First, Emirates Air brought a plane in to SFO four days ago to take the “victorious” team to Auckland, in anticipation of a Kiwi “sure win” as their SFO station chief told me. And it’s been sitting at SFO since. Why would Grant Dalton permit that? Talk about bad karma.
Then they put down $300,000 as a deposit on a victory party to be held Friday or Saturday night, and guess what? The word around town is that they lost the entire deposit as the regatta continues much to the amazement, and pleasure, of everyone in San Francisco, except ETNZ and their supporters. We called but ETNZ declined comment.
But what really has the Kiwis’ knickers in a twist? Sailing Anarchy has learned that City, State and Federal authorities are investigating ETNZ for tax fraud. Supposedly Dalton grossed up team members’ pay packets before they left NZ, and ETNZ have been paying them minimum wages since they arrived in SF to minimize income taxes payable in the USA. If true, that, my friends, would be criminal.
So is it any wonder that Grant Dalton is no longer racing on the yacht? You thought he was hurt? Or does he just have his hands full on shore?
Adding insult to injury, hundreds of Kiwi fans have had to move out of their hotels today as Oracle Open World gets under way and over 50,000 conventioneers have arrived and checked into those same hotel rooms at four times the going rate.
Will the Kiwis leave their hearts, and the Cup, in San Francisco?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1312:47 PM
suggested reading
particularly for current Am Cup hiearchy--and trash tabloid aficionodes alike .
A Full Cup: Sir Thomas Lipton's Extraordinary Life and His Quest for the America's Cup Paperback by Michael D'Antonio (Author) Today Lipton means tea. However, in his time Sir Thomas Lipton was known for much more than the Lipton tea empire. Raised in desperate poverty, he would build a global empire of markets, factories, plantations, and stockyards. But his epic pursuit of the America’s Cup—a yachting trophy and the ultimate in international sport—made him a beloved figure on both sides of the Atlantic.
More than a story of innovation and achievement, A Full Cup also explores Lipton’s most intriguing creation: his public persona, formed by a burgeoning mass media and a shameless self-promotion that made him one of the most recognizable figures of his time. Michael D’Antonio brings to life the surprising careers of this intrepid sailor, gregarious showman, and ingenious self-made millionaire—the world’s very first celebrity CEO.
Queen Victoria knighted Lipton for his commercial success as well as his philanthropy. During the Spanish-American war, and later during WWI, Lipton gave money and services to aid the wounded. A keen yachtsman, Lipton first challenged for the America's Cup in 1899, with his yacht, Shamrock. He made five attempts to win the cup, but never won. However, he earned a reputation as "the world's best loser,” and was presented with a gold cup by the people of America for his good sportsmanship in 1930. Although he tired of being the perennial good loser, he did not lose enthusiasm for the event which consumed so much of his life. "It has kept me young, eager, buoyant and hopeful. It has brought me health and splendid friends," he remarked shortly before his death. Lipton died in London in 1931. He had no heirs, and left much of his fortune to the city of Glasgow, to aid the poor, and to build hospitals. His tea companies in North America remained, and have since expanded into many areas of food production, to be leaders in the industry. Much of his fortune was spent unsuccessfully competing for the Americas Cup, the premier sailing trophy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1301:01 PM
I think the folks who will end up making real money are the carbon-jocks and engineers who designed all these foils (sail and daggar)
Both teams have solid boats that sail fast, and probably use slightly different foil packages.
I suspect LE and ENTZ may have a few patents on the stuff... because I would assume that everyone wants to foil now...
Could you imagine the revenue for San Francisco if OTUSA wins the AC and decides to have it again in this area? Or hold the qualifying series stopover there? Everyone and their uncle will be itching to sail in the bay - from Optis to the LV boats to get ready. With some of the infrastructure already there it seems silly to let it all slip away when the circus leaves.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1302:55 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
THAT IS REDICULAS -we all know only selected US citizens deemed as political enemies and Tea party members are targeted by Obama's IRS .
joking as usual --but would politely suggest leaving that sites rediculas BS there --and not bring it here.
I'm not a fan of SA most of the time but unfortunately if your a AC junkie like me you have to go there to see videos and wade through the muck to get a few tid bits here and there. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. I believe it's the #1 sailing web site in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong. When a site like this makes statements like they did it's news. It's part of the drama that is this cup cycle. Now the first couple of things in that article are more like bulletin board material for supporters or team members. The tax issue could be something else. If you disagree fine. Not sure where the Tea Party or Obama fit in this.
This is a open forum and this thread deals with the AC.
Please don't suggest to me what I can say or where I can say it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1302:56 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
and it looks like it really could all come down to the last race.
Doesn't every AC come down to "the last race"? It might be one or it might be four, but it will be the last race.
I knew that wasn't clear enough. I meant that it could be a score of 8:8, which I would love to see. Still a tough row to hoe and they are going to have to perform pretty flawlessly, there will have to be some continued luck (like the race taking too long when NZ was out front), and New Zealand will have to make some mistakes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1303:34 PM
I thought I saw some ridiculous quote like luck beats skill every time. I really don't think that's true in the long run, but I'm sure it feels that way sometimes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1303:43 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
and it looks like it really could all come down to the last race.
Doesn't every AC come down to "the last race"? It might be one or it might be four, but it will be the last race.
I knew that wasn't clear enough. I meant that it could be a score of 8:8, which I would love to see. Still a tough row to hoe and they are going to have to perform pretty flawlessly, there will have to be some continued luck (like the race taking too long when NZ was out front), and New Zealand will have to make some mistakes.
I was just messin' with ya, knew what you meant. I just hope the 2 penalty races don't become a factor. I really don't want to hear the "what ifs". As much racing as possible is good no matter how it ends.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1304:08 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Carl
THAT IS REDICULAS -we all know only selected US citizens deemed as political enemies and Tea party members are targeted by Obama's IRS .
joking as usual --but would politely suggest leaving that sites rediculas BS there --and not bring it here.
I'm not a fan of SA most of the time but unfortunately if your a AC junkie like me you have to go there to see videos and wade through the muck to get a few tid bits here and there. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. I believe it's the #1 sailing web site in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong. When a site like this makes statements like they did it's news. It's part of the drama that is this cup cycle. Now the first couple of things in that article are more like bulletin board material for supporters or team members. The tax issue could be something else. If you disagree fine. Not sure where the Tea Party or Obama fit in this.
This is a open forum and this thread deals with the AC.
Please don't suggest to me what I can say or where I can say it.
There is a great discussion on the Americas Cup on Sailing Anarchy with a lot of great post for all over the world...
AAMOF, there are a lot of great discussions on many topics going on there... and a great wealth of knowledge. Not all of SA is the General and/or Political Anarchy cesspool where 70% of the discussions end up in the gutter...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1308:37 PM
There's nothing here that's giving me good mojo. This is hanging on by a thread at it's finest. I'm going to get a rash from my butt clinging to the edge of the couch.
I first got the feed going and got a call from my the insurance company from the dude who rearended my boat trailer last month. Got off the phone and walked back into the living room to see USA behind. About pissed my pants. REPLAY. gawd....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1308:44 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
There's nothing here that's giving me good mojo. This is hanging on by a thread at it's finest. I'm going to get a rash from my butt clinging to the edge of the couch.
I first got the feed going and got a call from my the insurance company from the dude who rearended my boat trailer last month. Got off the phone and walked back into the living room to see USA behind. About pissed my pants. REPLAY. gawd....
I did same thing streaming here at work.... w t f!
Nothing like gazing intently at this device screaming obscenities.....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1308:46 PM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
There's nothing here that's giving me good mojo. This is hanging on by a thread at it's finest. I'm going to get a rash from my butt clinging to the edge of the couch.
I first got the feed going and got a call from my the insurance company from the dude who rearended my boat trailer last month. Got off the phone and walked back into the living room to see USA behind. About pissed my pants. REPLAY. gawd....
I did same thing streaming here at work.... w t f!
Nothing like gazing intently at this device screaming obscenities.....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1309:35 PM
Tomorrow is RACE 17. Race 17. Boat number 17. The series was best of 17 races. Tomorrow would have been the day, the one race to declare the AC34 winner. Wait. Oracle got smacked two of there wins due to ballastgate.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1310:13 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
This some confusion about that on the feed
Reading between the lines, I think the RC asked Oracle if they wanted to shorten the break or extend the latest start time and they said "yes". Judging by Murray's uncomfortable attempt at saying something without saying too much, I don't think New Zealand answered their radio. The announcers were being fed something that made them think racing again was a possibility until it wasn't.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1311:20 PM
Who came up with all these rules, re. the max race time,(only 40 minutes??) and 32 minutes between races, and no race can be started after 14:40 local, and and and...
I realize, "All the teams agreed to these rules..." but who came up with them? Seems pretty nutty, seems like they never wanted to get a second race off or a slow one finished!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/23/1311:23 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Who came up with all these rules, re. the max race time,(only 40 minutes??) and 32 minutes between races, and no race can be started after 14:40 local, and and and...
I realize, "All the teams agreed to these rules..." but who came up with them? Seems pretty nutty, seems like they never wanted to get a second race off or a slow one finished!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1312:34 AM
Man a sports psychologist would have a field day reading the body language in the press conferences. DB looks deflated and tired. JS looks like he's staring at a juicy steak. I think at this point Oracle just wants it more.
That reach was telling. Oracle got up on the foils faster and thats what got them the nose out and then the ability to extend on that first downwind leg is paramount.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:41 AM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Man a sports psychologist would have a field day reading the body language in the press conferences. DB looks deflated and tired. JS looks like he's staring at a juicy steak. I think at this point Oracle just wants it more.
That reach was telling. Oracle got up on the foils faster and thats what got them the nose out and then the ability to extend on that first downwind leg is paramount.
It definitely did. I thought Oracle was going to be toast on that start until they got clear of the line and were already on their foils. It's amazing how much faster they have made this boat in such a short time.
I still can't decide if I think Oracle can reclaim the lead if they get behind on the start. NZ stuck with them but couldn't get close enough to challenge Oracle....would Oracle have the same issue? The times in the past that Oracle was behind, they seemed to knock a little harder on NZ's door....I can't decide.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:59 AM
"All last week, in response to questions as to whether they were down and out, Oracle Team USA skipper, Jimmy Spithill infuriated the international media by repeating the line that they only had to win one race at a time; that he was very excited by the challenge that was ahead of the team; and how positive and hard-working the team were.
Most couldn't work out if he was off his medication, or had overdosed."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1312:53 PM
I was surprised that DB let Oracle off the hook just prior to the start. He got under them and I figured he'd do to them exactly what JS had done, luff them all the way up until they were nearly stopped, then bear off and go.
Jimmy kept pretty high above them, so maybe they were just too far away for that to work for ETNZ? He sure did roll over them right after the gun went off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1301:17 PM
Speaking of the Code 0... Did anyone else noticed that it seemed to take Oracle forever to furl their chute as they approached the bottom gate? ETNZ seemed to have theirs in for quite a while before Oracle got theirs furled.
We still need three before ETNZ gets one. Those are some long odds...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1301:30 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I was surprised that DB let Oracle off the hook just prior to the start. He got under them and I figured he'd do to them exactly what JS had done, luff them all the way up until they were nearly stopped, then bear off and go.
Jimmy kept pretty high above them, so maybe they were just too far away for that to work for ETNZ? He sure did roll over them right after the gun went off.
It was too late and OTUSA was too far away... I could see it in my head because at first I thought the same thing...
but all OTUSA had to do was just get more boat speed and roll over the top in that flood current they could afford to be higher on the line.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1301:41 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Speaking of the Code 0... Did anyone else noticed that it seemed to take Oracle forever to furl their chute as they approached the bottom gate? ETNZ seemed to have theirs in for quite a while before Oracle got theirs furled.
We still need three before ETNZ gets one. Those are some long odds...
Mike
I thought the same thing on the furling, it appeared they almost couldn't furl that last 25 percent.
OR is on a roll, this has turned out so much better than I anticipated.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1301:50 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I was surprised that DB let Oracle off the hook just prior to the start. He got under them and I figured he'd do to them exactly what JS had done, luff them all the way up until they were nearly stopped, then bear off and go.
Jimmy kept pretty high above them, so maybe they were just too far away for that to work for ETNZ? He sure did roll over them right after the gun went off.
I think Oracle managed to keep enough distance between them that if NZ tried to come up to luff Oracle, NZ would have slowed so much to have lost the overlap. When Oracle got on their foils and went into jet fighter mode a few seconds before NZ got going, that start was already lost.
I can't wait to hear the 5 things that Oracle changed that made them better. Apparently NZ has only figured out three of the five things Oracle changed. One of them is wing rake (say that three times really fast).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1301:53 PM
This is the Most exciting sailing i have ever seen ; the SPEED these Monsters can go is simply Amazing !!!
The highest speed i've seen on there display above the mast was about 40Kt or so, with LOTS of 38Kt + ; anyone seen Higher ? If so can Ya remember in which race so i can go back and look on the replays ?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:02 PM
I heard that has more to do with design and cavitation, it's not a rule of any kind. I have no idea if that's just speculation or has been tested on the water at full scale.
Keep in mind, I'm not a marine architect, and this is my fuzzy memory of something I read on the web...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:05 PM
It seems like when they turn that last mark and head for the finish line, that's when they hit the highest speeds. I'm always expecting to see one of them stuff the bows just a little too much, in the transition when coming around that mark, and a pitch-pole. It's been very close a couple times.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:08 PM
Ha! Synchronized responses...
What Bacho posted is what I recall reading. There isn't a rule that I'm aware of that stops them from going over 50 (as in, the blue light won't flash).
I think these boats are faster than expected, so I'd be surprised if they're not capable of getting over 50, if the wind is close to the limit and the water is flat enough.
I also don't know why cavitating is something they need a wind rule to prevent. If the foil cavitates, won't the boat just slow down? Seems like a self-correcting problem, or is there a safety issue I'm missing?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
I was surprised that DB let Oracle off the hook just prior to the start. He got under them and I figured he'd do to them exactly what JS had done, luff them all the way up until they were nearly stopped, then bear off and go.
Jimmy kept pretty high above them, so maybe they were just too far away for that to work for ETNZ? He sure did roll over them right after the gun went off.
I think Oracle managed to keep enough distance between them that if NZ tried to come up to luff Oracle, NZ would have slowed so much to have lost the overlap. When Oracle got on their foils and went into jet fighter mode a few seconds before NZ got going, that start was already lost.
NZ lost overlap at time mark 0:14 seconds. They were over 20 meters leeward of Oracle. NZ was 3-5 knots slower from the start to mark 1. They never had a chance. Wasn't even close.
Everyone owes it to themselves to watch these races with the live source AND Virtual Eye. Virtual Eye shows everything. Unfortunately, the broadcast, as fantastic as it is, misses so much of the race, and distorts reality because of the camera angle (ie. start/overlap). It doesn't show the overlaps, angles, wind shifts, etc. By looking at both sources you get a REAL picture of what is going on, and it helps to distract from the perpetual psyco-babble spewing form the orifices of the three stooges .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:30 PM
My favorite part of the televised coverage of the reaches is that no matter what relative positions the boats are to one another, they always show a water-level shot of the bows appearing to be neck and neck. The driver of that boat has obviously been working on this choreography for quite a while.
Of course, as soon as they switch back to the aerial shot, Fantasy Island starts to sink...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:36 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
From what I understand, it will lead to a safety issue as the crew will have much less control of the boat.
The wind limits put in place are more general and not specific to any design parameters. It was originally 33 knots. After a couple of incidents and reviewing the boat capabilities and feedback with the teams, it was reduced to what it is now to keep things safe.
The rules create several limitations on the designs that affect the stability of the boats on foils. In particular, the rule about having no foils extend beyond the perimeter of the boat means the teams all have an asymmetric rudder foil that is longer on the inside and shorter on the outside. This rule makes sense...you don't want an overboard crew member to be struck with the foil. In order to maintain stability, the boats need a certain amount of rudder foil surface area but there isn't enough room to put it without making it uneven. Because they are uneven, it induces additional bending stresses on the rudder and rudder mounting systems. The rudder foil is a key element to keep the bows from going under and actually pulls the sterns down to keep the bows up when they are turning downwind. I haven't researched it but I've been wondering if the rules also dictate that the rudders must be on the centerline of the hulls - because they ~could~ otherwise mount the rudders more inboard.
Foil cavitation is where the pressure of the water flowing around the foil drops so low that the water flashes into vapor/steam. It's a technical limit to any submerged foil and these guys are probably pretty close to that at full speed. When a foil cavitates, it suffers an ever quickening loss of lift. On these boats, the rudder foils are much more fine than the daggerboard foils so it's more likely that the daggerboards would suffer the loss of lift before the rudders...we would probably just see the boats settle down toward the water and as their speed drops off from the loss of altitude, the cavitation will stop and they will accelerate again. It's more of a speed limiter than a crash and flip issue.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:43 PM
As I understand it (And I'm sure Jake will correct me) when you hit 50 knots you require a totally different kind of foil shape in order for the foil to operate as expected. The problem apparently is cavitation that would lead to potentially the loss of flow attached to the surface of the foil. This would in turn lead to a nosedive like we've seen from ETNZ when their foil lifted them out of the water in the LV cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1302:44 PM
Tony, not sure but I think you can pause/start Virtual Eye, effectively giving you the ability to synchronize the two feeds. And here in North America, if you watch NBCSN, you can enable the audio feed on virtual eye when NBCSN goes to commercial.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:03 PM
Go to 2:50 in this vid. and watch Mischa lose a rudder to cavitation (not sure that's the right term, maybe ventilation)on a C class, and the end result.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:11 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
As I understand it (And I'm sure Jake will correct me) when you hit 50 knots you require a totally different kind of foil shape in order for the foil to operate as expected. The problem apparently is cavitation that would lead to potentially the loss of flow attached to the surface of the foil. This would in turn lead to a nosedive like we've seen from ETNZ when their foil lifted them out of the water in the LV cup.
Someone touched on it here before but there are two types of issues that lead to a submerged foil losing lift and they are often confused. Cavitation is a violent action on a small scale and is tiny bits of water flashing into vapor bubbles and collapsing with a tiny explosive force. If something cavitates for a prolonged length of time (like a boat prop) it can damage the material surface. On these boats, cavitation wouldn't be some big dramatic loss of lift but would act like a gradual stall on the foil. The cavitating situation would only be a very intermittent issue and would be limited to small areas of the foil and would result in an drop in speed so it probably wouldn't cause a crash. It would be just like hitting a speed ceiling that you can't exceed.
Ventilation is a different animal that is often confused with cavitation - it's where the foil sucks in air from the surface and it very quickly loses lift. This happens quickly and envelops the entire foil leading to a surprising situation. This probably had some affect on NZ's nose dive as their rudder foil got really close to the surface. Vertical foils (like rudders) can have this issue at high speeds and start to lose lift/stability at the top of the foil if it is configured in such a way that it sucks air down from the top of the foil...our boats don't get near this kind of speed for this to be an issue.
As shown by the design of the Vestas Speed Rocket, foils were a big part of their ability to beat the sailing speed record. Foils (mostly steering foils) are designed like a wedge for higher speed craft to help reduce the amount of cavitation on the areas that are needed for directional control. Where they labeled "air" in this image is a bit mis-leading...it should really say "vapor" as this is the point that the pressure in the flowing water drops so low that it turns to water vapor.
Reducing the number of foils is part of the thing that helped the Vestas Sail Rocket get the record.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:13 PM
I think Mischa experienced ventilation. Ventilation happens when air is sucked down around the foil, and can happen to us on our A's/F16's/F18's/20's in high speed bearaways. Cavitation happens when the water boils because your creating so much lift on the foil sailing at high speed; pressure on the top surface is lowered and the water literally starts boiling (Chem 101).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:20 PM
Airplane wings are designed to stall in particular areas first. I guess these foils are rather small for that.
If the horizontal surface cavitated, would the problem be limited to that area? Would it be possible for that to immediately ventilate the rest of the foil?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:35 PM
Size doesn't matter so much with foils once you're above a certain point.
Cavitation happens on the part of the foil that is most highly loaded and doesn't spread under steady-state conditions. You could ventilate the foil as a result of cavitation if the boats ride height changed dramatically.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1303:59 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Airplane wings are designed to stall in particular areas first. I guess these foils are rather small for that.
If the horizontal surface cavitated, would the problem be limited to that area? Would it be possible for that to immediately ventilate the rest of the foil?
I don't know if it is a design thing or it is just the way it happens, but many aircraft wings will stall at the wing root first hence the areolons being outboard to still have authority to control the aircraft.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1304:19 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Airplane wings are designed to stall in particular areas first. I guess these foils are rather small for that.
If the horizontal surface cavitated, would the problem be limited to that area? Would it be possible for that to immediately ventilate the rest of the foil?
As Sam mentioned, the cavitation will start small on a small section of the foil where it is creating the most lift (vacuum). If speed continues to grow, the cavitation will spread. In this case, the cavitation will limit the lift of the foil and start to slow the boat down as it tries to maintain foiling (or the hull touches the water). It probably wouldn't be very dramatic.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1304:20 PM
I was going to ask why the cavitation started where it did near the outer edge of the foil rather than the base where it attaches to the vertical surface.
would the rake angle of the leading edge have anything to do with that?
Would an inverse rake angle help or hurt? Let's assume nothing in the water would get hung up on it
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1305:01 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I was going to ask why the cavitation started where it did near the outer edge of the foil rather than the base where it attaches to the vertical surface.
would the rake angle of the leading edge have anything to do with that?
Would an inverse rake angle help or hurt? Let's assume nothing in the water would get hung up on it
A forward rake angle helps you with ventilation but not cavitation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1306:03 PM
Random thought but has anyone compared the relative conditioning of the two teams? We all know we have sex-breath McGee on ETNZ who clearly sounds like he's on mile 25 of a marathon by the last leg - but I have to say that the Oracle guys don't look nearly as spent when the race is over - at least in the later stages of the event.
You think that it might play a part in the seemingly sluggish maneuvering by ETNZ?
(The race has inspired me to go back to the gym FWIW)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1306:29 PM
He doesn't want to take any more chances that he won't be able to fulfil his dream/promise to return to monohulls? I'd be more impressed if he took the wheel.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1306:34 PM
Hey while we're waiting... let's start a top 10 list of things from this regatta that you can apply to every day life (since $100,000,000/boat technology will not readily trickle down to our level of the sport).
Here's one (inspired by the gym comment above):
If you're sitting in your office chair, and you lean to one side, and the sounds that come from the chair remind you of the groaning rigs of the AC72s, you might want to find your way back to the gym...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1306:49 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Hey while we're waiting... let's start a top 10 list of things from this regatta that you can apply to every day life (since $100,000,000/boat technology will not readily trickle down to our level of the sport).
Here's one (inspired by the gym comment above):
If you're sitting in your office chair, and you lean to one side, and the sounds that come from the chair remind you of the groaning rigs of the AC72s, you might want to find your way back to the gym...
Mike
You don't need the gym. A little silicone spray will fix that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1307:57 PM
In a few minutes I've got to drive up to Lakeland for another swim meet this afternoon, so I'll miss the AC on TV, but I'll try to keep up through Catsailor on my phone, if one of you would be so kind as to provide a simple play-by-play, like, who won the start, who's ahead at first crossing, etc.
Thanks in advance, enjoy the show, I heard it's supposed to blow pretty good today, let's hope Oracle can bang off two in a row!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:14 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
In a few minutes I've got to drive up to Lakeland for another swim meet this afternoon, so I'll miss the AC on TV, but I'll try to keep up through Catsailor on my phone, if one of you would be so kind as to provide a simple play-by-play, like, who won the start, who's ahead at first crossing, etc.
Thanks in advance, enjoy the show, I heard it's supposed to blow pretty good today, let's hope Oracle can bang off two in a row!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:31 PM
There was a Dutch TV interview with Simeon Tienpont where he mentioned that they are very strong physically and that is helping them at this point of the regatta. Kiwis always look out of breath somehow, could it be that their boat just requires more power since everything is done hydraulically?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:37 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Spithill has pulled a major headbutt on Barker. Not just on the start but in his head.
I would like to see that again...I'm not convinced that NZ had time an opportunity there based on the short bit I saw...They did leave themselves incredibly vulnerable by being so early to the line but they shouldn't be required to anticipate Oracle's luff until it happens.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:49 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.
Spithill has pulled a major headbutt on Barker. Not just on the start but in his head.
I would like to see that again...I'm not convinced that NZ had time an opportunity there based on the short bit I saw...They did leave themselves incredibly vulnerable by being so early to the line but they shouldn't be required to anticipate Oracle's luff until it happens.
Jake, if you look at the replay... Oracle was still coming up and Barker put the wheel over towards Oracle in the middle of Jimmy still pushing up. It was clear from that that they didn't do all they could... They should have tacked.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:51 PM
Darren Bundock "ISAF Executive Committee cringing. Keeping in mind it's the same political body that kicked the multihull out of 2012 Olympics. No room for politics in our sport. Time to even it up on the water."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1308:51 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
6 consecutive wins. Who would've thought.
Not me, but they need 8.
All this babble about this being one of the greatest comeback runs in sporting history (if they pull this off): tell me, what comeback would rank higher?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/24/1310:07 PM
Originally Posted by hobiephil
I don't think you sandbag to one race from elimination. Anything could cause you to lose one race even if you had a dominating boat.
You're assuming that New Zealand isn't in on it. When there is this level of people involved, you're talking about the people who effect government, policies, and borders. A silly sailboat race to keep some of the Subjects entertained is nothing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:54 AM
Un flippin believable.
Huge thanks to Dennis Key for talking to me with the blow by blow on my long drive to and from a solar array out in the Cali desert today. Pretty sure the folks in cars near me thought I was epileptic...
Massive credit to the American Team for an unbelievable comeback. For this series to be tied now is just beyond unexpected. I'm still pulling for the Kiwis to find their mojo and pull back from the brink of ignominy, but you simply have to marvel at the composure and professionalism of Jimmy Spithill... an Americas Cup skipper for the ages.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:02 AM
anyone have a lead on the wind forecast for tomorrow? GJ thought the forcast was for 30 on the telecast and they might be forced to delay. It is hard to keep rearranging the schedule! just have to do it tho...This is spectacular competition.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:08 AM
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
anyone have a lead on the wind forecast for tomorrow? GJ thought the forcast was for 30 on the telecast and they might be forced to delay. It is hard to keep rearranging the schedule! just have to do it tho...This is spectacular competition.
windfider is saying 13knts at 1pm and 17knots at 5pm. Looks like a good day for racing to me. Intellicast is saying much of the same.
You think any of these sailors are sleeping tonight? I don't.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:50 AM
What is unique about this competition unlike any other pro sport is that it is Unrelenting. It is day after day after day... the breaks are unexpected and actually a let down not a chance to recharge your battery or emotions. The world series has scheduled travel dates... the foot ball play offs give you two weeks before the superbowl.. How Oracle is maintaining their edge is extraordinary.... How New Zealand is holding it together or cracking is more normal.
Spitall has been called a bull dog... I am beginning to understand where that comes from.
Once again... Thank you Larry Ellison.... I love that you spent a billion on the sport just for the hell of it and it has been spectacular.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:52 AM
We're sailors, not some pussy butt wife beating baseball players, or football player rapists, or child molesting basketball players. You'd need a break too if you had all those extra curricular activities.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1304:07 AM
What a critical moment in RACE 18 (2nd Race) Time mark: 1:20:30 to 1:22:30 A lot is happening here, like 2 questionable tacks by NZ, but the "play it again moment" is when Oracle "foils" over NZ while maintaining the same height, and does it 5 knots faster than NZ. That gentlemen, is the Holy Grail for Oracle upwind. Time positioned at 1:20:30
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1310:35 AM
In a way, I think ETNZ has already lost much of what they wanted. At this point the score sheet will always show that OTUSA won more races. I don't think ETNZ wanted an asterisk beside the cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1311:23 AM
It seems to me the jury has brought more attention to the O king post change and hurt the AC more than if they had just let O take themselves out of the pre cup races. If O does not win today it will always be the cup where the jury changed the outcome and how many times do we have to hear the reason O has two less wins every time they put up the race results.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1311:31 AM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Could Oracle have been sandbagging the first races? If not their progress if fenomenal!
Could be? There's talk on SA of the whole thing being rigged, while I doubt it, I also don't discount it as being a possibility.
something definitely doesn't add up.........
it's like NZL threw away the real crew and put a bunch rank amaturers
to me it looks like they are deliberately throwing it away.... cant belive the sudden change, if it looks like shyte, smells like shyte.... its probably shyte !!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1311:49 AM
Originally Posted by Pirate
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Could Oracle have been sandbagging the first races? If not their progress if fenomenal!
Could be? There's talk on SA of the whole thing being rigged, while I doubt it, I also don't discount it as being a possibility.
something definitely doesn't add up.........
it's like NZL threw away the real crew and put a bunch rank amaturers
to me it looks like they are deliberately throwing it away.... cant belive the sudden change, if it looks like shyte, smells like shyte.... its probably shyte !!
These guys are sailors - not hollywood actors - and you can see Deano's desperation on his face after the races yesterday. He really did look like a man who knows millions of people's hopes and dreams rest on his shoulders and he's not able to handle the burden anymore.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:18 PM
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:20 PM
Originally Posted by Pirate
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Could Oracle have been sandbagging the first races? If not their progress if fenomenal!
Could be? There's talk on SA of the whole thing being rigged, while I doubt it, I also don't discount it as being a possibility.
something definitely doesn't add up.........
it's like NZL threw away the real crew and put a bunch rank amaturers
to me it looks like they are deliberately throwing it away.... cant belive the sudden change, if it looks like shyte, smells like shyte.... its probably shyte !!
Really? That would be a pretty large conspiracy. Good luck trying to keep that hidden. It's really quite simple (Occam's Razor)...Oracle has made significant configuration and control changes to their boat and has a whole new upwind gear set. If there's anything sneaky to it, perhaps Oracle hasn't been showing everything they have upwind in the last several races until that last upwind leg. That was an astounding show of strength to come across the course and close that gap so fast. I can see why they might do this so as to not set New Zealand into a panic of development until it is too late.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:24 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Pirate
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Could Oracle have been sandbagging the first races? If not their progress if fenomenal!
Could be? There's talk on SA of the whole thing being rigged, while I doubt it, I also don't discount it as being a possibility.
something definitely doesn't add up.........
it's like NZL threw away the real crew and put a bunch rank amaturers
to me it looks like they are deliberately throwing it away.... cant belive the sudden change, if it looks like shyte, smells like shyte.... its probably shyte !!
Really? That would be a pretty large conspiracy. Good luck trying to keep that hidden. It's really quite simple (Occam's Razor)...Oracle has made significant configuration and control changes to their boat and has a whole new upwind gear set. If there's anything sneaky to it, perhaps Oracle hasn't been showing everything they have upwind in the last several races. I can see why they might do this so as to not set New Zealand into a panic of development until it is too late.
Don't let reason get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Mike
I bet it's a clean start. These guys are showing incredible sportsmanship given the fire in their bellies. I'm proud to be a sailor with these guys around.
Compare those guys to this nightmare of public relations the last time a multihull was in the cup: http://youtu.be/-h7pKHnZs1g?t=31s
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:31 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Pirate
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Could Oracle have been sandbagging the first races? If not their progress if fenomenal!
Could be? There's talk on SA of the whole thing being rigged, while I doubt it, I also don't discount it as being a possibility.
something definitely doesn't add up.........
it's like NZL threw away the real crew and put a bunch rank amaturers
to me it looks like they are deliberately throwing it away.... cant belive the sudden change, if it looks like shyte, smells like shyte.... its probably shyte !!
These guys are sailors - not hollywood actors - and you can see Deano's desperation on his face after the races yesterday. He really did look like a man who knows millions of people's hopes and dreams rest on his shoulders and he's not able to handle the burden anymore.
My wife brought something like this up while we were watching the replay, that is they let them win to drag it out and make more money etc... She noted it looked like the Kiwi didn't bother showing up yesterday......
I told her this is not the LA Lakers in the Showtime Years where could have put a beat down on any of the teams the faced in the championship and kept it going for the TV money.
Anyway, here is what the wind is looking like today
TAF - Terminal Area Forecast KOAK - Oakland, California Updated at 11:53 AM GMT on September 25, 2013 (4:53 AM PDT):
ID: KOAK Oakland, CA REPORT TIME: 25 11:23 VALID TIME: 25 September AT 12:00Z to 26 September AT 18:00Z. INITIAL WX WINDS: 290 AT 11 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR NEW WX STARTING: 18:00Z WINDS: 280 AT 15 GUST 20 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR NEW WX STARTING: 21:00Z WINDS: 270 AT 18 GUST 24 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR NEW WX STARTING: 03:00Z WINDS: 280 AT 10 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR NEW WX STARTING: 09:00Z WINDS: 310 AT 4 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR NEW WX STARTING: 15:00Z WINDS: 30 AT 3 VISIBILITY: >6.0 MILES CLOUDS: CLEAR COMMENTS: =
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:56 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Mike
I bet it's a clean start. These guys are showing incredible sportsmanship given the fire in their bellies. I'm proud to be a sailor with these guys around.
Compare those guys to this nightmare of public relations the last time a multihull was in the cup: http://youtu.be/-h7pKHnZs1g?t=31s
I'm a little worried about JS. He can sometimes handle the wheel aggressively when the adrenalin gets pumpin'. He lost a couple hundred meters here when this happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q1Tfb7maQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=4536 If it's close racing at speed, I hope he handles the wheel like a volquartsen trigger.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1312:58 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Mike
I bet it's a clean start. These guys are showing incredible sportsmanship given the fire in their bellies. I'm proud to be a sailor with these guys around.
Compare those guys to this nightmare of public relations the last time a multihull was in the cup: http://youtu.be/-h7pKHnZs1g?t=31s
I'm a little worried about JS. He can sometimes handle the wheel aggressively when the adrenalin gets pumpin'. He lost a couple hundred meters here when this happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q1Tfb7maQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=4536 If it's close racing at speed, I hope he handles the wheel like a volquartsen trigger.
Yeah, but NZ gave them a pump-fake luff...just enough. The LAST thing JS wants to do there is get a penalty so a little porpoising is not too much of an over-reaction.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:00 PM
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
My wife brought something like this up while we were watching the replay, that is they let them win to drag it out and make more money etc... She noted it looked like the Kiwi didn't bother showing up yesterday......
I told her this is not the LA Lakers in the Showtime Years where could have put a beat down on any of the teams the faced in the championship and kept it going for the TV money.
Added to which, it's sailing...any number of things could change on the race course and affect the outcome. Either boat could have a mechanical failure, crazy wind shift, hit a mark...any number of things could go wrong and change the outcome. You would be insane to "rig" it to be this close.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Mike
I bet it's a clean start. These guys are showing incredible sportsmanship given the fire in their bellies. I'm proud to be a sailor with these guys around.
Compare those guys to this nightmare of public relations the last time a multihull was in the cup: http://youtu.be/-h7pKHnZs1g?t=31s
A knife fight is the highest compliment one can give to a match race, from true match racing fans (there are no bigger fans of the pure sport than IUs). They don't want to see boats going fast away from one another, they want to see constant attacking.
Nothing dirty is implied, the goal is to use boat positioning and the rules to crush the competition. If the give-way boat escapes cleanly, you want the boats to sail on and re-engage quickly.
That's also the intent of the delayed penalties in normal match racing. The idea is to allow the penalized boat a chance to force an offsetting penalty, and keep the racing close.
I hadn't thought about it before, but the instant penalties in this event are as much of a game changer as the boats themselves.
Of course, as I tell anyone who will listen, Larry is more of a purist than anyone. The original AC wasn't about equalizing the field or close match racing, it was full-on, buy it, build it, and bring it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:18 PM
BTW, for all the media coverage, the "journalists" are all worthless. The most important piece of information to uncover (and this should have been the goal as soon as ETNZ got 8 wins): who is on the boats with the commodores? Who is lining up to be the next CoR?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:34 PM
Quote
Of course, as I tell anyone who will listen, Larry is more of a purist than anyone. The original AC wasn't about equalizing the field or close match racing, it was full-on, buy it, build it, and bring it.
works for me.... I tried watching some of the chicago match race video.... I lasted for about 5 minutes..... and that was the highlight reel.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:37 PM
Philip, thanks for getting the replays up so quickly, I just finished watching them. Wow is about all I can say.
In race 1, obviously Jimmy won the start (hit him, just like I said a couple days ago, the Darlington stripe!) and it was adios after that, but in race 2, Barker got him back, both at the start and at the first mark, but the two big mistakes I saw that cost ENTZ the race were;
1. they tried to lee bow Oracle when they should have crossed instead, and gone to the (favored) left side then tacked back for a loose cover and kept the train rolling at high speed, vs. a leebow (that never works in cats, I'm surprised Ashby didn't say "WTF Deano?" on that one!)
2. Then they made two extra downspeed tacks once they hit the boundry.
Sure Oracle was on their air a little bit after they both tacked at the boundry, but they didn't accelerate up to speed before they went, they were only going 19 when they started the first one. It looked like each tack cost them at least 100 yards.
Judging by that wind forecast, 18 G 24, at 2pm local, they should be able to get a race in today, I HOPE!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:40 PM
I still wish they would bring back the Nationality Rules, ie. every thing and every body should be from the Nation of record.
How many Americans are actually sailing on the "American" (in name only) boat?
Two? One?
It's just wrong.
If Larry had hired Randy Smyth and Cam Lewis to drive it, it would have been 9-0 to the Americans a week ago, while Deano the boys were still trying to figure out how to sail a cat. It took much too long, but Jimmy has finally figure it out. I LOVED it when he footed off and rolled ETNZ after they tried to lee bow him! Classic stuff that no Mono-only guys would ever understand.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1301:58 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Tim, we'd get our butts handed to us on a plate with an all American team. French, Ozzies, and Kiwis are just better sailors.
I understand that, but we have to ask ourselves, WHY??
Because they can make a living at it.
Are you saying American Sailors can't make ends meet on what Larry is paying the Expats to sail his boats?
I still don't understand why both teams went out and got Monohull experts to race their catamarans, when there were plenty of world class catamaran racers available. The mono guys are -still- making mono-match racing type moves that most cat guys know won't work.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:05 PM
The thought process was, we can teach professional, big-boat, match racing sailors how to sail cats, much easier than we can teach cat sailors to match race.
EDIT: I agree about the nationality rules. Jerome (Rome) Kirby is from Newport (and is either Ken Read's godson, or should be) and is the only American currently on the boat.
Don't forget, the rules had loopholes in the past, and you saw a lot of shady passport-changing leading up to each iteration.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:09 PM
Ainslie's been doing a great job, if it's him that's been calling the tactics. Seems he's got them going to the correct side of the course most of the time, certainly upwind leg 3 yesterday! Either that or they just got very lucky with a left shift. ENTZ went right, to get out of the flood behind Alcatraz, Oracle went left, and closed the gap when they came back together....not ahead, but closer. I still think ENTZ blew it when they tacked under Oracle. What were they thinking??
They just watched the left side pay off for Oracle, they should have crossed and gone left! Or at least got to the left of Oracle far enough for a one-tack back on the layline to the mark. Instead, they made 3 tacks, all of them slowwww and ended up 200 yards behind!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:12 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
The thought process was, we can teach professional, big-boat, match racing sailors how to sail cats, much easier than we can teach cat sailors to match race.
EDIT: I agree about the nationality rules. Jerome (Rome) Kirby is from Newport (and is either Ken Read's godson, or should be) and is the only American currently on the boat.
Don't forget, the rules had loopholes in the past, and you saw a lot of shady passport-changing leading up to each iteration.
Mike
Re. teaching a mono-match racer to sail a fast catamaran:
Yeah...not so much. The speeds are so great on cats that one bad move (or 2 extra tacks) are going to give the other guy hundreds of yards. Like Randy Smyth said in Rick's book, "Speed is all that matters, go as fast as you can, as long as you can." and that was long before anyone ever went 40knots on a cat! Speed is much more important now, because 'going slow' costs you so much more, when the other guy is going 40!
These guys still seem to think tacking is going to win them a race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:13 PM
ETNZ looked a lot like Oracle at the beginning of the series. Even when they led to the first gate, no matter which way they went, or what they did next, they got passed on the beat.
What's most shocking to me is that both sides seemed really hesitant to try foiling upwind until the end.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:15 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
The thought process was, we can teach professional, big-boat, match racing sailors how to sail cats, much easier than we can teach cat sailors to match race.
EDIT: I agree about the nationality rules. Jerome (Rome) Kirby is from Newport (and is either Ken Read's godson, or should be) and is the only American currently on the boat.
Don't forget, the rules had loopholes in the past, and you saw a lot of shady passport-changing leading up to each iteration.
Mike
Yeah...not so much. The speeds are so great on cats that one bad move (or 2 extra tacks) are going to give the other guy hundreds of yards. Like Randy Smyth said in Rick's book, "Speed is all that matters, go as fast as you can, as long as you can." and that was long before anyone ever went 40knots on a cat! Speed is much more important now, because 'going slow' costs you so much now, more when the other guy is going 40!
These guys still seem to think tacking is going to win them a race.
That has been our observation all along (except maybe for Jeff, LOL)...
Anyone else wish the skippers were Ashby and Bundock?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:24 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Ainslie's been doing a great job, if it's him that's been calling the tactics. Seems he's got them going to the correct side of the course most of the time, certainly upwind leg 3 yesterday! Either that or they just got very lucky with a left shift. ENTZ went right, to get out of the flood behind Alcatraz, Oracle went left, and closed the gap when they came back together....not ahead, but closer. I still think ENTZ blew it when they tacked under Oracle. What were they thinking??
They just watched the left side pay off for Oracle, they should have crossed and gone left! Or at least got to the left of Oracle far enough for a one-tack back on the layline to the mark. Instead, they made 3 tacks, all of them slowwww and ended up 200 yards behind!
Timbo, I've noticed that Oracle (upwind) will "foot,foil,fast" mode to "ferry" quickly across the strongest current. When on foils they are less affected by the current. Strategy has worked well. The three stooges haven't commented on that yet. They're too busy babbling about the replays to notice. Just my opinion but I think Ainslie is the game changer (tactics wise), the three on the back gel very nice together.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:27 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
The thought process was, we can teach professional, big-boat, match racing sailors how to sail cats, much easier than we can teach cat sailors to match race.
EDIT: I agree about the nationality rules. Jerome (Rome) Kirby is from Newport (and is either Ken Read's godson, or should be) and is the only American currently on the boat.
Don't forget, the rules had loopholes in the past, and you saw a lot of shady passport-changing leading up to each iteration.
Mike
Re. teaching a mono-match racer to sail a fast catamaran:
Yeah...not so much. The speeds are so great on cats that one bad move (or 2 extra tacks) are going to give the other guy hundreds of yards. Like Randy Smyth said in Rick's book, "Speed is all that matters, go as fast as you can, as long as you can." and that was long before anyone ever went 40knots on a cat! Speed is much more important now, because 'going slow' costs you so much more, when the other guy is going 40!
These guys still seem to think tacking is going to win them a race.
We've seen in the past that these guys are just plain better *sailors* than what we can produce in the multihull world. When you're a good sailor, it doesn't matter what world you're coming from. I bet these guys could hop on an F18 and hand 95% of us our butts around a race course.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:28 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Tim, we'd get our butts handed to us on a plate with an all American team. French, Ozzies, and Kiwis are just better sailors.
I understand that, but we have to ask ourselves, WHY??
Because they can make a living at it.
Are you saying American Sailors can't make ends meet on what Larry is paying the Expats to sail his boats?
I still don't understand why both teams went out and got Monohull experts to race their catamarans, when there were plenty of world class catamaran racers available. The mono guys are -still- making mono-match racing type moves that most cat guys know won't work.
Of course THEY can...but to get to that level for them to look at you, you have to sail a lot while finding a way to pay the bills. That, or have a connection that gets the ball rolling.
Can you list the pro catamaran sailors out there where sailing is their sole occupation? {cricket, cricket}
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:29 PM
I agree, Jimmy has gotten much better at putting the bows down to go fast in a puff, rather than pinching up like he was doing early on when they were getting their butts handed to them on every upwind leg.
I don't know if that was because JK was telling him to do that, or if it was just his natural habit from racing monos all his life. Seems Ainslie has it figured out, maybe because in a Laser you need to foot off and go fast, vs. pinching, which in that light boat is certain death. But if it's Ben that's been telling Jimmy where to go (get to the city front for the lift!), and how to go faster (Foot off!) good on him!
What is Slingsby's background? Has he done any cat racing?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:32 PM
I've seen a few moves that make me wonder what they're thinking early on but I consider both of these helmsman some of the best multihullers out there (assuming keeping the boat in one piece is also part of your goal). They had a learning curve, but they climbed it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:37 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
If you think yesterday's race was the best ever, wait for the last one. With nothing to lose on either side, I'm expecting a full-on knife fight. It's going to be really hard to stick to a "game plan."
Mike
True, but I would change it to "with everything to lose on either side"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1302:44 PM
Keep it in focus that at the beginning of the series Oracle was simply not ready. They were still developing and climbing the vertical learning curve, and starting with a new wing trimmer. Difference between Oracle and NZ is that it appears that Oracle is never satisfied and constantly pushes the development envelope, where maybe NZ got comfortable or were afraid to try drastic changes. In the end, this is an epic event, close racing, no capsizes, no structural failures, and anything but boring. This is the Cinderella story of all time. The naysayers were surprisingly wrong. There were some hiccups along the way, but Larry got it right. May we never go back to the old format.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1303:01 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
We've seen in the past that these guys are just plain better *sailors* than what we can produce in the multihull world. When you're a good sailor, it doesn't matter what world you're coming from. I bet these guys could hop on an F18 and hand 95% of us our butts around a race course.
This is a fact. I've raced against a few of these converts and watched a bunch more race. All they are doing is shifting gears not learning a whole new sport.For example Nathan Outteridge came to the A cat worlds w/ limited experience and did extremely well against the worlds best ( Ashby wasn't present). Broken boards put him in 16th otherwise he was top 5. These guys know how to connect the dots.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1303:26 PM
I certainly don't think these guys "suck" by any stretch. There's so much going on, I'd venture to say that while they probably couldn't win a Worlds on a beach cat, a beach cat sailor wouldn't even be close on these boats. Moving a beach cat around on the water with one other person aboard is just night and day different than dealing with anything larger, and with more crew (and complexity). I think their slow-boat instincts have hurt them at times, but that's a really easy thing to say from the comfort of one's keyboard.
I'd love an honest answer from Ashby or Dunbock as to whether they'd want to steer one of these things at this level. I sure would have liked the event if they'd at least been the tacticians.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1303:50 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Keep it in focus that at the beginning of the series Oracle was simply not ready. They were still developing and climbing the vertical learning curve, and starting with a new wing trimmer. Difference between Oracle and NZ is that it appears that Oracle is never satisfied and constantly pushes the development envelope, where maybe NZ got comfortable or were afraid to try drastic changes. In the end, this is an epic event, close racing, no capsizes, no structural failures, and anything but boring. This is the Cinderella story of all time. The naysayers were surprisingly wrong. There were some hiccups along the way, but Larry got it right. May we never go back to the old format.
I wonder if we might see a surge in beach cat sales after this event, as mono guys start to consider that going fast might actually be... FUN!
I know as a mono guy myself, I never seriously considered racing cats until I watched Dennis Connor (and Randy Smyth) use a 60' cat to crush that 90' Kiwi Sled of Mike Fey, back in that AC (was it 1988?).
I never thought cats could "point", because all I had ever seen of cats back in the 70's and early 80's was...Hobie 16's lying on their sides out in the bay when the wind came up, they always flipped over.
"That looks stupid" is what I thought, swimming is not sailing. I'm sure many of the mono guys are rethinking their opinions of cats as we speak, or at least I hope they are, and I hope we see some more guys make the transition. I know I'm getting a lot of questions from the guys I fly with, about what type of cat they should get into. The conversations this summer have always started with them asking me, "Have you seen those monster cats that are racing in San Francisco?", and then I give them about 2 hours worth of info, and tell them about this site, and how they can pick up a used Hobie 16 for peanuts and be out there having fun too.
Obviously racing a beach cat is much more physically demanding than sitting on a keel boat like a J24, going 5 knots upwind, and a whopping 8 knots downwind, so many fat mono guys are not going to make the jump, but I'm glad I did, or I'd be really fat by now!
"I don't know what everyone has been doing here the last couple of weeks," Glenn Ashby, New Zealand's wing trimmer, cheekily told reporters. "The regatta actually starts tomorrow."
Cool thing is, He and Jimmy were teammates at the last Little AC/C class worlds in Newport. Glenn drove and Spithill crewed Alpha.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1304:13 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
"That looks stupid" is what I thought, swimming is not sailing.
I started sailing small monos and did not switch to beach cats until I... well, moved to the beach. I have spent a lot more time swimming while sailing the small monos than I ever have on a cat.
On a different note, she sings after this next race. The only question is who is she singing to?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1304:15 PM
be near a good computerat 4pm today, find NBCsports online, live america cup covera ge, that is 4pm.wedns.sept25,..got it?if i was in a 2 boat start and hit the other boat on the start line..i am not much of a skipper am i?let see what happens today! professor bruce i 17 tampa
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:05 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Larry certainly could have rescheduled or remoted in. Why did he allow this potential scheduling conflict in the first place?
Who cares??????
Mike
The first race was on when he was scheduled to talk - that would have been tough. The "scheduled" racing was supposed to end last sunday...we're on extended time because of the previous weather delays (reduced wind limits compounded that) and Oracle's penalty. It's a best of 17 series and we've already raced 18 races.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Larry certainly could have rescheduled or remoted in. Why did he allow this potential scheduling conflict in the first place?
Who cares??????
Mike
The first race was on when he was scheduled to talk - that would have been tough. The "scheduled" racing was supposed to end last sunday...we're on extended time because of the previous weather delays (reduced wind limits compounded that) and Oracle's penalty. It's a best of 17 series and we've already raced 18 races.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:32 PM
BTW, during yesterday's presser, Jimmy mentioned that the daily pep talk is given by a team member that he wouldn't name. Any chance Uncle Larry shows up at the morning team meetings each day?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:34 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
BTW, during yesterday's presser, Jimmy mentioned that the daily pep talk is given by a team member that he wouldn't name. Any chance Uncle Larry shows up at the morning team meetings each day?
Mike
I kinda had Samuel L. Jackson in mind when he said that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:43 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
BTW, during yesterday's presser, Jimmy mentioned that the daily pep talk is given by a team member that he wouldn't name. Any chance Uncle Larry shows up at the morning team meetings each day?
Mike
I kinda had Samuel L. Jackson in mind when he said that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:47 PM
Here it is, in case you have been in a coma for the last month. Anybody who comes on here, during the race, and ask where/what the link is to view the race must buy merchandise from Rick's Online Store.
YouTube Internationally Racing on YouTube is blacked out in North America. Use Stealthy (Chrome and Firefox browsers), or any number of location proxy fakers as the work around. YouTube has two camera choices, one which is what is broadcast on NBCSN, the other is the LiveLine overlays from the helicopter overhead view.
NBCSN starting at 1:00 pm PT
Virtual Eye should be up on a second tab. Great for audio during commercials and live replays yourself. Yes, you can pause, reverse, fast forward, etc. live during the race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1305:47 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Pick your horse. Time to announce who you're pulling for. I'll pull for the underdog for the greatest sporting comeback of all times.
ORACLE for the win.
Who's your pick?
PS: Karl, you can't pic both boats to crash and sink before the finish.
Rootin' for Oracle, but I've already been proven wrong in thinking ETNZ would walk away with it.A whole lot of what ifs up to now. Either way ,at this point they both have earned the win.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1306:15 PM
Been pulling for Oracle since we started - gotta stick with them....
That said - regardless of who wins, I want to see a street brawl out there for ~25min!
The best and worst part of today is - we will finally crown a winner BUT this will put and end to what has simply been great racing and development since I started following late last year. I've thoroughly enjoyed the development of the class and everyone's boats. I've enjoyed watching the LV series rooting for Artemis. I've enjoyed the precision the Kiwi's have displayed along with their professionalism. And finally, I've enjoyed watching and rooting for the home team do battle here in these finals and make this a cup to remember....
I gotta give Larry credit, it's been a thoroughly enjoyable, exciting, and entertaining regatta and I simply love the technology!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1306:39 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
The thought process was, we can teach professional, big-boat, match racing sailors how to sail cats, much easier than we can teach cat sailors to match race.
EDIT: I agree about the nationality rules. Jerome (Rome) Kirby is from Newport (and is either Ken Read's godson, or should be) and is the only American currently on the boat.
Don't forget, the rules had loopholes in the past, and you saw a lot of shady passport-changing leading up to each iteration.
Mike
Yeah...not so much. The speeds are so great on cats that one bad move (or 2 extra tacks) are going to give the other guy hundreds of yards. Like Randy Smyth said in Rick's book, "Speed is all that matters, go as fast as you can, as long as you can." and that was long before anyone ever went 40knots on a cat! Speed is much more important now, because 'going slow' costs you so much now, more when the other guy is going 40!
These guys still seem to think tacking is going to win them a race.
That has been our observation all along (except maybe for Jeff, LOL)...
Anyone else wish the skippers were Ashby and Bundock?
Mike
I appreciate the shout out, and of course will stubbornly stand by my opinion/experience.
As for the tack, I don't think NZ was trying for a leebow, because as has been pointed out, that rarely works in fast boats (cats or otherwise). To me the decision was (with Oracle being MUCH faster upwind at the time):
1. Cross, which would have given Oracle the favored current and starboard advantage on the next cross
2. Lead back to the boundary where you have room to tack, knowing Oracle will then have to decide to either tack early underneath you or carry to the boundary and fall in line. The foiling low mode Oracle displayed basically killed this option.
I think the decision was much like the foiling tack- the opposing boat had a very clear upwind speed advantage which severely limited tactical options, therefore you have to try a much more uncomfortable move. Your mileage may vary.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1306:45 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
In thinking that ETNZ will not use the card today, I am not even sure they can?
I'm betting they won't (if they could?). They would have used it yesterday if it entered their mind. I don't think it's in NZ mindset to do something like that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1306:53 PM
Jeff, Ken Read made similar observations. ETNZ was out of good options at that point. Even if they tacked directly in front (without fouling), Oracle was probably close enough to foot and sail through their lee.
Although, that would have been entertaining too...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1306:58 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Jeff, Ken Read made similar observations. ETNZ was out of good options at that point. Even if they tacked directly in front (without fouling), Oracle was probably close enough to foot and sail through their lee.
Although, that would have been entertaining too...
Mike
Right and had they tacked on top of Oracle, they were quite close to the boundary and would have had to give room to Oracle both on starboard after they tacked and because of the boundary... having to short tack in quick succession without getting up to speed.
They were in a bad spot and to be honest I would have just kept sailing in a straight line.
Great article. I think one point that a lot of people don't see about sailing is that there are no brakes. You don't just stop if there is a problem. On boats of this size, even stopping with control requires a concerted effort among several crew members. The wind is a beast and we barely have a bit in it's mouth or a toe in a foot strap. The speed IS impressive but the real sensation of sailing performance boats is that you are hooking into a force that you can't necessarily stop when you want to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1307:50 PM
In one of the pressers, BA basically said that sometimes they purposely give up ground between the boats to put themselves in a better position on the course.
Not saying that they let ETNZ catch up in certain places but BA is picking where to go out the course sometimes at the expense of raw speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1307:51 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
There's something wrong here. I just put a sign on my door. "DO NOT DISTURB NO MATTER WHAT!!
I can't leave work early but Bonnie wants to see it together - so I'm going dark. Phone in airplane mode and internet off...oh, the anticipation! Good luck Oracle Team USA and I hope it's a good one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1308:10 PM
I kind of hope that Oracle win it because they will stay with this format, even if scaled down a bit. However, I think the kiwis really deserve it as well for all the hard work they have put in this campaign.
Whatever the outcome, sailing is the big winner here
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1308:42 PM
Wow, just WOW! Un frikk'n believeable!
Well, Oracle did everything right today! I mean, they were about even off the start line, stuffed and nearly flipped it up at the top mark, but ate ETNZ up on Leg 3, again!
I loved hearing Ainslie telling the guys to,
"Keep working boys! This is it, Keep WORKING!!" Classic.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1308:54 PM
Almost the same race as Race 2 yesterday. NZ with a close lead at reaching mark, holds the close lead at first downwind mark and USA/Oracle kicks butt back upwind and never relinquishes their lead. Unbelievable work.
There's also a bright red link about the AC on Drudge which just happens to be the largest link referrer on the web for news sites (regardless of what you think of the site itself)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1309:39 PM
Originally Posted by Carl
BOWS ? foils .Surface foiling upwind and full foiling down .
Amazing racing -catamaran sailors all over the globe must be as excited about the sport and future racing as we seem to be here .
C ClASS cats are next up .
Jobson and co are talking about how they want to make future races more affordable and get perhaps as many as 15 teams competing for the next cup .
In that interview with Geno Morelli a few days ago, he said in the future they should ditch the hard wing (too expensive, too many shore crew needed to handle it), and go with a smaller platform. I said back when they were racing the AC 45's, they should just stick with those, if they really want 15 teams to show up, and now that they know how to foil, they should make the AC 45's into foilers, soft sails, fix the rudders so they can trim the boats on the foils easier, etc.
BUT...as I said a few days ago, if you do get 15 teams to show up, as the Defender, you stand that much more of a chance of Losing the Cup!
So even though they say they want more teams in it, I'm not sure Larry is willing to risk losing the cup to have a more affordable boat, that will allow more teams to show up and be competitive. All that would do is increase his chances of losing it. Heck, he nearly lost it this time, and he nearly priced every other team out of it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1309:40 PM
Here's the best thing about this cup. A transcript of me and my coworker's Gchat:
Quote
wbb 1 hr
3:56 PM Thaddeus
Dave Me too:-) Dave • 4:00 PM
Dave I want to take a nap but I can't stop watching, this is awesome! Dave • 4:32 PM
Dave Impressive win!!!! Dave • 9 mins
****ing hell I barfed before the race I was so nervous 8 mins Thaddeus
Dave seriously Dave • 8 mins
Jimmy was ****ing tailgating ETNZ the entire downwind leg if something broke on ETNZ during that... people would have died. 6 mins Thaddeus
Dave the whole thing was so intense, it took my mind off of how bad I feel now the benedryl & sudafed are kicked in, I need to nap, my head is poiunding. Dave • 5 mins
Thats awesome 5 mins Thaddeus
Dave great race!!!! Dave • 5 mins
I'm glad you enjoyed it 5 mins Thaddeus
Dave I'm hooked will be following it from now on Dave • 5 mins
this cup was meant to appeal to people like you who enjoy auto racing 4 mins Thaddeus
Dave it did!!! Dave • 4 mins
its meant to show that we sailors aren't stuffed shirt types named buffy 4 mins Thaddeus
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1309:45 PM
Yeah that was some downwind run! Amazing how close they were the entire way down that leg!! At one point I was sure Jimmy was going to ram ETNZ from behind!
At least Jimmy's Wife is an American, I feel a little better now!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1309:46 PM
For the movie, I would like to see Jeff Daniels play the part of Larry Ellison, and Jim Carrey playing Spithill. Of course, Dean Barker's part will be played by David Bowie.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1309:51 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah that was some downwind run! Amazing how close they were the entire way down that leg!! At one point I was sure Jimmy was going to ram ETNZ from behind!
This is my favorite part of the race. Less than a boat lenght away going 40 kts right on his a$$. How ya doing Dean?... Well the pass was cool too.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1310:05 PM
JS said in an interview about three weeks ago that foiling up wind would play a big part in the races. Did not seem like it would be until the end. Do you think they were holding back?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1310:10 PM
Originally Posted by catman
JS said in an interview about three weeks ago that foiling up wind would play a big part in the races. Did not seem like it would be until the end. Do you think they were holding back?
I doubt they were holding back, I think they just had to learn how to do it!
Oracle definitely got much faster going upwind through the last 8 races. If you remember, leg 3 was their weakness when ETNZ was kicking their butt. Somehow they figured out how to: 1. make the boat go faster upwind and 2. get to the favored side of the course and protect it going upwind.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/25/1310:19 PM
He's definitely a class act. Part of me feels bad for him. If they had not been so darn hell bent on going back to the old way of doing the AC I could have rooted for them.
I don't think I could ever root for GD though. Other than being an inspiration to us aging guys, he's difficult to stomach.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:08 AM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Class act - I gotta be honest, I feel really bad for DB. Seems like a real good guy and great sailor. Gotta be crushing....
I am however still in disbelief Oracle pulled this out. I half expected NZ to just come out and hammer OTUSA. Hats off to Jimmy and the entire crew... Awesome performance...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:19 AM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Class act - I gotta be honest, I feel really bad for DB. Seems like a real good guy and great sailor. Gotta be crushing....
I am however still in disbelief Oracle pulled this out. I half expected NZ to just come out and hammer OTUSA. Hats off to Jimmy and the entire crew... Awesome performance...
ETNZ did come out and hammer them. They won the start, were ahead to the first mark, maintained the lead all the way down the first run, then they allowed Oracle to split on leg 3, again, just like yesterday, and they got passed, again, just like yesterday (absent the leebow tack).
I wonder if they wish they'd have tacked, gone left to cover, much earlier in that leg.
Oracle clearly had better speed upwind though, so over the length of the full leg it may not have mattered if they had tacked to cover earlier. Truly amazing change to the Oracle boat/crew/sailing style, that they could change their early weakness on leg 3, to their strength.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:43 AM
That start was the polar opposite of what I was expecting/hoping for, but was smart by both teams. It's still unbelievable what a turnaround Oracle made, turning their weakness into their strength is a huge understatement.
Karl, thanks for verifying that I wasn't hearing things when Todd said "pole pitching." Obviously, when you speak for so long and fill that kind of air time, you will occasionally mis-speak, but the team was more worried about correcting themselves over saying "champagne" instead of "sparkling wine" and didn't worry about the sailing terminology.
But, I still prefer to listen to Kenny over Jobson, and the end of this race gave me one more reason why. He noted that Jerome Kirby defended on this boat, and his dad Jerry defended back in the 90s. He didn't mention that he sailed with both of them in the VOR, something that Jobson would not be able to restrain himself from interjecting himself into.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:03 AM
Here's the way I see it :
We purchased some of the Best mercenaries on the planet , and along with our (1) home-boy , they did a Good job of racing against some of the Classiest & formidable foes on earth.
In the end, i could-a cared Less who Won , because it was simply Spectacular !!!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:17 AM
I snuck out of the office for a long lunch - brought the guys from work to my place to watch. They've been asking lots of questions, and I provided a running commentary for today's race. That was insanely exciting stuff. I'm hugely disappointed that ETNZ folded up like origami, but equally energized by the spectacle of the improbable comeback and the Cup staying in San Fran for another cycle.
Thanks for the link to the Esquire article - good one.
And thanks, everyone (ahem, PM!), for making this thread one of the best Catsailor discussions ever.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1303:34 AM
Oracles win was top story on Sportscenter tonight. Although "sailing" in general was lampooned nearly the whole segment by the jock anchorman. Wonder if there's a replay online anywhere.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1303:59 AM
Win or Lose, We Stand Together.
This AC34 has not only energized the multihull community, but has successfully captured the world's attention. People are watching, they are talking, they are amazed and smiling. All the major networks, CNN, BBC, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, etc. are covering it.
Tune in tomorrow morning to the Today Show on NBC and see the Oracle team as special guests.
Enjoy this video, captured on a Red Cinema Epic Camera, which, BTW is on my Christmas wish list, if anybody's wondering.
Setting his sights on the America’s Cup World Series in Venice, Fowler flew himself to Italy on his own dime, lending a hand to the ORACLE TEAM USA shore team.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1305:17 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.
There's something wrong here. I just put a sign on my door. "DO NOT DISTURB NO MATTER WHAT!!
I can't leave work early but Bonnie wants to see it together - so I'm going dark. Phone in airplane mode and internet off...oh, the anticipation! Good luck Oracle Team USA and I hope it's a good one.
Think Jake's screaming at the screen right about now? Ha
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:20 PM
From the above quoted article: "This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically."
I'm just a little skeptical of the above "Fly by wire" report. Not because it's not possible, certainly it is, but in order to have a system like that, one additional thing you need is a stable reference point (in airplanes we have laser ring gyro's) to define whatever 'stable' attitude you are trying to attain.
Now, if instead of saying 'fully automatic' he meant 'electric/hydrolic' vs. manual, for control of the foil tilt system, that I would believe.
OR...maybe they actually did install some type of gyros into the hulls, and hook them up to the foil tilt system?? That would explain why all of a sudden Oracle was able to start foiling upwind?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:26 PM
Timbo, that's pretty easy to achieve:
a) they can put a laser ring gyro or MEMS 6-DOF sensor on the AC72 for AOA and a host of other variables (likely existed from day 1) b) multiple sensor technologies exist that give you height above water. c) all of it is pretty darn cheap, save a laser ring gyro which is unnecessary (not navigating from point A to point B 3000 miles away)
I've been thinking about this all week, it's really the only solution I can see making a notable speed gain in the short time frame they had to modify the boat. I'm not sure it's class legal, and I'm not sure I believe the report that it's true.
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
This guy is full of it. He bases his opinion on what TV commetators have said. Good luck with that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1312:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
The best part of the presser: Larry said that it would be great if more kids start sailing, and if they sail HOBIE CATS instead of Lasers!
He later botched it a bit by talking about Lasers a lot, but did circle back and again mentioned getting kids onto cats!!!!!
We need to find a way to tap into this momentum...
Mike
Many years ago (16?) when I was teaching a kids sailing class in Optis, along comes the Hobie Wave. When I saw it I thought it would replace the Opti, the kids hated the slow, small, solo little Optis, but they LOVED putting two or three of them on the Wave, and going much faster too!
I know we've had this discussion many times before, and the reason the Opti is more popular as a youth trainer is only because a Yatch Club can buy/store/maintain more Opti's on site, easier, than the same number of Waves. I'll bet if Hobie could design some type of a storage rack system, and cheap/light/easy type of beach wheels to launch the Waves, they could sell a lot more of them to the Yacth Club youth programs. Still, you'd need a beach at the club to launch them from, and many Yacth Clubs just don't have a beach available, but a set of floating docks, which makes it a PITA to launch/retrieve a Wave from.
I once saw a Hobie 16 that lived on a 12'x 12' floating square, because there was no beach anywhere, but that was just one Hobie 16, you'd need a pretty hefty rack system to store 10 Hobie Waves on a float like that. (and a bigger float!)
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
is there anything more official about this or just standard internet bs? It would explain a lot, but not buying it until I hear something more reliable.
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
is there anything more official about this or just standard internet bs? It would explain a lot, but not buying it until I hear something more reliable.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:10 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Timbo, that's pretty easy to achieve:
a) they can put a laser ring gyro or MEMS 6-DOF sensor on the AC72 for AOA and a host of other variables (likely existed from day 1) b) multiple sensor technologies exist that give you height above water. c) all of it is pretty darn cheap, save a laser ring gyro which is unnecessary (not navigating from point A to point B 3000 miles away)
I've been thinking about this all week, it's really the only solution I can see making a notable speed gain in the short time frame they had to modify the boat. I'm not sure it's class legal, and I'm not sure I believe the report that it's true.
It would also have to have very quick action to the daggerboards/rudders to be able to adjust them so quickly, they'd have had to completely re-design their inputs to the hydrolic control systems. Not saying they didn't but man, that's a lot of R+D work in not much time!
The 777 has stability augmentation through the fly by wire control inputs, that you never even notice when you are hand flying it. When you hit turbulence or change your configuration (flaps/gear) it puts in opposite controls to dampen out the bumps/changes, so quickly (supposedly many times per second?) you never feel a thing.
I suppose Oracle could have put a similar system on board their boat, to control their foil tilt, that would be a game changer for sure, and probably against some rule, so no wonder they won't tell anyone what exactly they changed to get that thing going faster upwind!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:17 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Timbo, that's pretty easy to achieve:
a) they can put a laser ring gyro or MEMS 6-DOF sensor on the AC72 for AOA and a host of other variables (likely existed from day 1) b) multiple sensor technologies exist that give you height above water. c) all of it is pretty darn cheap, save a laser ring gyro which is unnecessary (not navigating from point A to point B 3000 miles away)
I've been thinking about this all week, it's really the only solution I can see making a notable speed gain in the short time frame they had to modify the boat. I'm not sure it's class legal, and I'm not sure I believe the report that it's true.
I heard some rumblings that NZ started to lodge a protest (or at least an inquiry) over a system like it a week or so ago and I think they asked for an interpretation of the rules. I think the consensus was that as long as the motive power was from the sailors, that having a computer adjust the position of the foils was OK. I think ironing this out was a big part of Oracle's new found upwind speed.
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
is there anything more official about this or just standard internet bs? It would explain a lot, but not buying it until I hear something more reliable.
The system would never be fully automatic though, it would just tell the crew what setting to use.
Yeah, but his blog "insinuates" that the SAS was the reason they started winning 10 days ago. The reader can interpret it wrong and it gets lost in translation through the web. Watch the presser, they talk about what changes were made. Also listen to Coutts in the podcast.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:29 PM
Anybody watch The Today Show this morning? Spithill and guys were interviewed after partying all night without sleep, and it showed. Good for them, wish I was there with them.
Well it wasn't the result we wanted but today we finally learned what won the America's Cup - it was computer science. No I don't mean Oracle (though of course Oracle Team USA did win). I mean Oracle's Speed Augmentation System (SAS). This is an automated computer controlled fly-by-wire system that adjusts Oracle's hydrofoils automatically. Team New Zealand's hydrofoils are adjusted manually by a crew member. Apparently Boeing helped OTUSA with the technology, which is essentially the same as the fly-by-wire systems that continually adjust the flight surfaces of modern aircraft. This explains the remarkable speed gains that OTUSA have shown in the last 10 days, effectively locking the Kiwi's out of the cup. The SAS just gives OTUSA a more stable foiling platform and stability equals speed. So far other that what the TV commentators have been saying I've been unable to find any details of the system online, but I'll keep looking.
is there anything more official about this or just standard internet bs? It would explain a lot, but not buying it until I hear something more reliable.
The system would never be fully automatic though, it would just tell the crew what setting to use.
Tom is an aerodynamics guy, not a controls guy. The fields are linked, and Tom is a genius in many ways, but they would need additional expertise to get the automatic foil control implemented. All is doable with enough $$$
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:39 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Anybody watch The Today Show this morning? Spithill and guys were interviewed after partying all night without sleep, and it showed. Good for them, wish I was there with them.
Dude Falcone was grinning ear to ear and swaying back and forth. I bet his BAC right now is about 0.7
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:45 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Wow, that's going to change a lot of stuff going forward!
So, do we "Go Back" to 100% human power, no computers, or do we go to the next step, fully automated Drone Foiler racing?
Heck, you could sit on the dock with a joystick and never even get wet, and still win the America's Cup!
I hate to sound like the Old Fart Monohull Only proponants, but really, where do you draw the line on this stuff?
All of these boats have computers on board (several). Personally, as long as the energy to move and adjust things comes directly from humans, I think it's OK. I might even support having the energy to power the computer systems to come from humans (or wind) as being OK but then you start asking questions about things like PDAs and digital compasses and the like.
It's about man harnessing the wind and using muscle to shape the things that catch it that works for me. We have digital GPS units, speedo's, and other tactical units that tell us when to turn, if we're hitting our target speeds, and if we're heading in the right direction. Offshore racers have computerized steering devices and we use computers to look up the weather. Computers even control the final design shape of the boats, foils, sails, masts, wings...Look at the whole boat, it's the result of a computer. I can see how something like this stability control is something relatively new and that we're not familiar with but when you look at the bigger picture of high technology racing in other sports, I don't think it detracts from the fact that this thing is still pulled around the course by wind and shaped by muscle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1301:54 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
Anybody watch The Today Show this morning? Spithill and guys were interviewed after partying all night without sleep, and it showed. Good for them, wish I was there with them.
Dude Falcone was grinning ear to ear and swaying back and forth. I bet his BAC right now is about 0.7
They all looked like they were fighting the vertigo. Even Spithill sounded a bit raspy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Timbo
Wow, that's going to change a lot of stuff going forward!
So, do we "Go Back" to 100% human power, no computers, or do we go to the next step, fully automated Drone Foiler racing?
Heck, you could sit on the dock with a joystick and never even get wet, and still win the America's Cup!
I hate to sound like the Old Fart Monohull Only proponants, but really, where do you draw the line on this stuff?
Timbo, go win the cup and you can make it anything you want. That's the way it works.
If you did win it, I envision young hot female flight crews serving Red Bull Rummy's in gimbal mounted tervis tumblers.
I would have to have crew rules stipulating one dude (me) and 10 hotties, no doubt!
I wonder which direction Larry will take it though? More high tech development? This morning on the news he said there was one challenger already talking to him about the next Cup, but he wouldn't say who, what, when or where.
I'd like to see Richard Branson do it, with 10 hot Virgin Atlantic Flight Attendants as crew!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1303:09 PM
Where was Larry, or at least Rome??? Not one American could show up for the interview? Maybe they did party too hard.
I think that it's a good bet that not only did those guys not sleep since winning, they may not have seen showers or clean clothes in the past 18 hours...
Awesome...thanks for the link. "A show of hands for who has had sleep since winning the cup yesterday"......{cricket, cricket...Ainsley wobbles side to side a little...and they all stare straight forward with glassy eyes as Spitty grins}. Classic.
Awesome...thanks for the link. "A show of hands for who has had sleep since winning the cup yesterday"......{cricket, cricket...Ainsley wobbles side to side a little...and they all stare straight forward with glassy eyes as Spitty grins}. Classic.
Jake, did you have a long night also? Where's Ainsley? You're right though, that was Classic.
Notice how Jimmy once again dodges the question, "What did you guys do to the boat to manage the comeback?"
I've heard him asked that question 3 times, by 3 different people this morning, and each time he completely dodges it, so it must be something they are keeping "Top Secret", like a computer controlled foil trimming system or such.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1304:13 PM
Okay, I've about finished my brain control beacon aimed at LE's head. My vision of the 35 AC
Shrink the AC45 down to container-fitting size (like the VX40), and put them on foils. One-design class for LV series in similar fashion to the way it ran this time (more than one boat per team, multiple locations/regattas, etc, windward/leeward courses, fleet and match racing points).
Teams wishing to enter LV/AC competition series contribute XX dollars to Partially fund the eventual defender's AC campaign
For the finals, Defender builds two identical boats (60 footer, wing/foil) and challenger gets to pick which one they wish to use for the AC series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1305:06 PM
It would be a good idea to E-mail NBC and tell them how much you enjoyed the coverage. Drop down box select "other" leave comment. http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1305:18 PM
This explains everything.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1305:32 PM
GOOD CALL! done
Originally Posted by catman
It would be a good idea to E-mail NBC and tell them how much you enjoyed the coverage. Drop down box select "other" leave comment. http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1307:40 PM
FYI, while I was in SF, I got to flip through this book. It looked like it was very well put together and is going to make an excellent addition to my sailing coffee table books!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1308:07 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
FYI, while I was in SF, I got to flip through this book. It looked like it was very well put together and is going to make an excellent addition to my sailing coffee table books!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1308:38 PM
Hey the Rolex Big Boat series starts in SFO Bay today! Wouldn't it be great if NBCSC would just stick around for a couple days and cover some of that? Kenny and Garry would then know what the Fark they were looking at, and what tactics the racers should be using!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/26/1311:26 PM
I have a list of words I never want to hear in relation to sailing ever again. Pretty much, any time Spithill has opened his mouth in any interview after nearly being flushed. Basically, replay his answer to Matt Lauer's question (or anyone else) when he asked what they changed about the boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1302:53 AM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Jake
I bet Karl L. was driving.
You kidding? He wouldn't slow down for anything trivial like urination. Sailing with him is the only time I've ever considered peeing in a drysuit.
Huh. That's not what the freaking desktop background at my sailing club public computer indicated. "Hey Karl, I'm going to take a leak...you drive for a minute and make sure we stay on THIS side of the camera boat".
"Half way through the series it was acknowledged that Oracle had fitted an automatic control to their hydrofoil trim, and that this modification was approved by the measurement authorities."
"The 'legality' of this device has been justified and accepted on the basis that it does not actually 'drive' the trim of the foils.....this is still performed by the muscle power of the crew, via hydraulic linkages."
"The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship."
"The vital words are at the opening of the second sentence 'her crew' - meaning that an automated adjustment which works independently of crew intervention is illegal."
"Even under the current America's Cup rules such a system is quite legal, and it is hard not to believe that such systems were not used again in the 2013 America's Cup. The key point being that there must be a crew intervention between the computer and the sail or other control named in RRS42."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1303:09 AM
That's a great article Philip, thanks for finding and posting that! It sure didn't take long for that to come out! I wonder why ETNZ didn't protest asap, when Oracle had won 3-4 in a row?
From 1996-2000 I flew the MD11, (an updated DC 10). It also has a SAS, it helped to control the pitch with the elevator. The MD 11 is known to be a squirly airplane to hand fly, due to it's small elevator and the SAS system you are using to fly it with. Pete Melvin started out as an Aeronautical Engineer for McDonald Douglas, I think he may have worked on the MD11 as well.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1303:42 AM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Our boy Spithill will be on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno at 11:30p ET/PT on NBC.
How 'bout dat . . .
Jay just opened the show by referring to the Americas Cup!!!
Then immediately proceeded to delivered a joke that bombed miserably (something about the yachting spectators flipping their Bentleys and throwing Grey Poupon?). At least he admitted it sucked. "Well, so much for that joke..."
"Half way through the series it was acknowledged that Oracle had fitted an automatic control to their hydrofoil trim, and that this modification was approved by the measurement authorities."
"The 'legality' of this device has been justified and accepted on the basis that it does not actually 'drive' the trim of the foils.....this is still performed by the muscle power of the crew, via hydraulic linkages."
"The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship."
"The vital words are at the opening of the second sentence 'her crew' - meaning that an automated adjustment which works independently of crew intervention is illegal."
"Even under the current America's Cup rules such a system is quite legal, and it is hard not to believe that such systems were not used again in the 2013 America's Cup. The key point being that there must be a crew intervention between the computer and the sail or other control named in RRS42."
The "stability augmentation system" has been public knowledge since August 8. Here's the schematic: AC 34 Measurement Committee Public Interpretation 49 ETNZ protested the measurement committee's interpretation in early September, but the jury ruled the protest invalid because ETNZ filed too late (they had 14 days to file). In an unusual move, the jury opined in that decision that they would not have ruled in ETNZ's favor anyway.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1312:13 PM
That's an interesting schematic, thanks for posting Matt. I don't see any "Computer" inputs there, so in my mind, it's not really a Stability Augmentation System, which implys computer controlled stability, at least it does in Airplanes. This just looks like a hydrolic piston moving the board back and forth, in response to the buttons being pushed, up/down.
So why did it take them being down 8-1 to figure out how to use it?
OR...What if they inserted a sensor and a computer to do it faster/better during their layday?
Did they all of a sudden learn how to foil much more smoothly upwind? And ETNZ didn't?
Really?
Let's open the boat up and see!
Read this from the rules:
The operation for (i) and (ii) above, shall not receive external input from any source other than manual input. Any data acquisition system, associated sensors or electronics shall be physically separate and completely isolated from any electrical operation referred to in (i) and (ii) with the exception of the voltage supply.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1312:26 PM
I don't see HAL in that drawing...
Back to Leno, Jimmy got about 2 minutes on the air, and Jay didn't really have time to ask anything. The crowd was chanting "USA USA USA," to which Leno replied "He's Australian!?"
Then, in a clearly scripted and rehearsed manner, Jay gave Jimmy a champagne toast, Jimmy put it all in his mouth, and Jay said "I had all my money on New Zealand!" and Jimmy spit the champagne toward the camera.
Much better than listening to that adversity speech again...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1301:54 PM
Originally Posted by catman
It would be a good idea to E-mail NBC and tell them how much you enjoyed the coverage. Drop down box select "other" leave comment. http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/
Done. Thanks for the tip. Maybe we'll actually see a little more "yachting" on TV...
The surmise that Oracle was way behind because SAS is bad in non-foiling mode is silly. They had a knot in their Code0 sheet which limited their manuevering and allowed NZ to stretch out
"But in the end, the victory came down to one of the oldest methods of rescue in team sports: calling a timeout to make adjustments."
"Oracle didn't like the test results and decided against the tactic. "They had it so wrong out of the blocks," said Ken Read, a former America's Cup skipper and current NBC Sports analyst. "It's shocking how much technology they had at their disposal and came out so wrong upwind."
"We just had to configure the boat properly," Ellison said Wednesday. "The guys on the engineering team finally...broke the code. Russell talked about driving the boat lower and faster, rather than higher and slower."
Note: Coutts has stated, that very early on it was Slingsby who pressed the team to foot and sail fast upwind, but his efforts were overruled by the team and engineers. Coutts has given full credit to Slingsby for championing the cause for that drastic change at a critical point in the series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1302:54 PM
Yeah, I believe you gave me some lip about that 10 years ago, and B Hodges and JC both cracked my butt not to do that. I'm a graduate and have the certificate to prove it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1303:24 PM
In the last press conference Jimmy did say that they didn't actually change anything apart from the bowsprit. The "the shorecrew is working day and night" was probably a big windup for the kiwis.
In the last few races the kiwis really messed up the start a few times as well and made some big tactical errors, it was is they never changed their mindset from holding of Oracle to actually attacking them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/27/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
In the last press conference Jimmy did say that they didn't actually change anything apart from the bowsprit. The "the shorecrew is working day and night" was probably a big windup for the kiwis.
In the last few races the kiwis really messed up the start a few times as well and made some big tactical errors, it was is they never changed their mindset from holding of Oracle to actually attacking them.
I suspected that, they would surely want the kiwis to fear the "upgraded" boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/28/1304:24 AM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
[quote=catman]It would be a good idea to E-mail NBC and tell them how much you enjoyed the coverage. Drop down box select "other" leave comment. http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/
I think Oracle had some fun with this speculation. The idea that you could get an advanced sensory system from a 747 and somehow integrate it successfully into the worlds most complex yacht, withing a day, always seemed a bit implausible to me.
I think Oracle had some fun with this speculation. The idea that you could get an advanced sensory system from a 747 and somehow integrate it successfully into the worlds most complex yacht, withing a day, always seemed a bit implausible to me.
"Credit has to go to Oracle for the way they turned things around. Having had a good speed advantage over them in the first week upwind, this quickly changed to them having an advantage over us in the second week. How they managed to do this was phenomenal. Unfortunately for us we had pretty much tapped out all the performance we could from our boat."
"I can honestly say we could have done no more. The two final races we had the lead at the bottom gate and normally would have extended from there. But things had changed so dramatically with Oracle's upwind performance, that they pretty much sailed around us."
“What I can say is that G.G.Y.C. has received a challenge,” Ehman said. “I received it on the water on Wednesday immediately when our boat crossed the finish line and won. Commodore Norbert Bajurin was with me. We received and then we accepted the challenge, and I’m satisfied that it’s a bona fide yacht club under the deed of gift.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/28/1301:59 PM
"It's a lovely rumour, but we can't confirm that it's true." That was the official response from Hamilton Island co-owner Sandy Oatley this morning (Saturday) when asked if the Hamilton Island Yacht Club was the official challenger of record for the 35th America's Cup."
"However, a very reliable source confirmed with me that America's Cup Race Management has already advised Emirates Team New Zealand that Hamilton Island Yacht Club will be the COR."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/28/1307:44 PM
From Latitude 38
Of course you did.
Now for the aftermath. A lot of Kiwis are asking how Oracle could have come from the verge of elimination to win eight straight races to retain the Cup. Wasn't there something fishy?
Larry Ellison told the press that the turnabout was because: 1) Spithill was sailing lower and faster rather than higher and slower — as repeatedly suggested by Russell Coutts; 2) better tactics and crew work; and 3) Oracle engineers had "broken the code." Ellison wouldn't give any details on "the code," suggesting he'd be in big trouble with Coutts — "our leader" — if he did.
Actually, Ellison gave the third reason first, and added the other two later almost as afterthoughts.
It's no secret that Oracle, which had been decidedly slower upwind at the start of the Cup, was decidedly faster upwind — particularly foiling upwind — in the second half of the Cup. In fact, both Dalton and Barker knew they were toast going into the last race unless the wind was really light or something else weird happened.
Some say that Oracle had new foils flown up from Larry's "special boatbuilder" in New Zealand, and that did the trick. On the other hand, Spithill said Oracle used the same foils throughout the Cup. Of course, after a U.S. President told the nation "I did not have sexual relations with that woman," it was proven that you can mouth something that's technically correct but nonetheless completely misleading. Not that we're saying that's what Spithill did.
For what it's worth, the Kiwis did not use the same foils throughout the series. Sometimes they used the slower but more forgiving J-shaped foils, sometimes they used the less forgiving L-shaped foils similar to Oracle's.
The current theory is that Oracle got much faster because they came up with an auto-stabilization system for the foils, while the Kiwis had an inferior manual model.
The Kiwis are said to have protested the use of the device prior to the start of the Cup, but the protest had been filed too late. But — and this is a really big but — the international jury said that had the protest been received in time, they most likely would have allowed the device and denied the Kiwi protest.
So you have to wonder, if Oracle had the auto device the whole time, why were they so slow in the beginning of the Cup?
Want to get into the nitty-gritty of Oracle's auto-stability system, which kept the boat rock steady foiling upwind compared to the Kiwi's inferior manual system and why Oracle's system might be technically legal but borderline fair? Read the letter at the end of this report.
The thing to remember is that from the very beginning, the America's Cup has been a design competition, not a level contest between sailors. At the last press conference, a glum Grant Dalton acknowledged and congratulated Oracle on their technological success. He didn't say they were better sailors.
The moral of the 34th Cup would seem to be, in a tech race, the team with the nearly unlimited funds has the advantage over the team that doesn't know where their next set of foils is coming from. Which is why we've always wanted the America's Cup to be contested in one-designs, or near one-designs, so it would be more of a sailors' race than a designers' race.
This is not to take anything away from the Oracle team. Led by Coutts behind the curtains and the resolute Spithill on the boat, they never gave up, and came back from certain defeat on several occasions. It was brilliant, and we salute them. We also salute Coutts and Ellison, as they really did come up with something spectacular beyond our imagination. Let's hope they can keep it up, on San Francisco Bay again, but with five times as many entries because of lower costs.
Now for the letter, which was written by a "Kiwi technology bloke," and spread around by Alan Wiltshire of Takapuna Beach, New Zealand. It purports to explain how Oracle got so fast and how legal it was:
1. It is well recognized that Oracle was having serious foiling stability difficulties at the outset of the regatta and that their performance could not match that of ETNZ.
2. Halfway through the series, it was acknowledged that Oracle had fitted an automatic control to their hydrofoil trim, and that this modification was approved by the measurement authorities.
3. Since this modification, Oracle's performance has almost unbelievably improved. This has been 'explained' by skipper Jimmy Spithill as being due to the superhuman efforts of the crew to improve their handling skills. However, in view of the intensive training Oracle were able to do, prior to the regatta, with their highly skilled team partner, it seems unlikely that only now have they discovered the “magic bullet” they clearly have. It is much more likely to be the result of the modifications, possibly enabled by their surprising decision to use their lay day card and the subsequent lucky postponements.
4. It must be remembered that this is the first time that this contest has been sailed by yachts 'flying' on hydrofoils, and it is probable that new and different criteria should have been applied.
5. In the aeronautical world it has long been known that the stability of swept wing aircraft can rapidly be lost by uncontrolled yaw leading to a dangerous situation known as 'Dutch Roll'.
6. A device known as 'Little Herbie' was developed during the commissioning of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets over 40 years ago, to overcome this tendency. Little Herbies, or Stability Augmentation Systems (SAS) as these are now designated, are equipped with sensors such as accelerometers and gyros which can detect and instigate corrections to stability with a speed and accuracy which exceeds the ability of even experienced airline pilots. They are therefore now installed in virtually all swept-wing aircraft.
7. The 'legality' of this device has been justified and accepted on the basis that it does not actually 'drive' the trim of the foils — this is still performed by the muscle power of the crew, via hydraulic linkages. That may be so, but the device, using it's sensing and directives, has been described as 'automatic'. This implies that the trim of the foils is determined by what can only be described as 'superhuman' technology. If this technology has been used to overcome the foiling stability difficulties of Oracle, it will have enabled the use of higher speed/lower drag foils which the crew would otherwise be unable to manage. This would give a significant speed advantage during foiling. This has been clearly in evidence since the modification. Improvement in stability and speed has been staggering.
8. The high speed/low drag foils do have a downside in light conditions where, due to their lesser lifting characteristic, foiling is difficult or impossible. This was also clearly seen in the abandoned Race #13 when ETNZ were only four minutes from the finish, with a lead of over 1000 meters.
9. ETNZ appears to have worked within the constraints of accepted yacht racing rules and the special America's Cup 2013 Racing Rules to achieve foiling with these craft. This has been at the cost of using foil characteristics and controls which can be successfully managed by a skilled crew while having to make some concession to pure speed.
10. Although there is risk of being derided for being a poor loser or a bad sport it can not go un-noticed that Team Oracle have already been penalized for cheating, and that previous Defenders have been noted for sailing very close to the wind of rule compliance. The recent outpouring of bluff and arrogance from Jimmy Spithill may well be part of a plan to trail red herrings and to draw the attention off the real technological reason for their quite literally astounding comeback.
11. The question is whether the use of a device which can enhance performance in excess of that achievable by human endeavour should be allowed in a sporting contest?
12. Is this grounds for protest? At least we should all be aware that this is how desperate sporting entertainment has become.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/28/1307:50 PM
More from Latitude 38
Having won the Cup two times in four attempts, a champagne-splashed Ellison told the press that he had already received a challenge for the next America's Cup. He declined to say who it was from, but the next day's rumors had it coming from Australia. According to trusted waterfront sources, the plan to insure this outcome was put in place even before conclusion of the last race, as Golden Gate Commodore Norbert Bajurin was reportedly sequestered aboard one of Larry Ellison's boats Wednesday so that no one could serve him with an official challenge before the Australians, who did so shortly after Oracle Team USA's win was confirmed in AC 34's 19th race.
Our sources did not tell us the name of the Aussie challenger, but American and Australian news sources claim the challenge came from Hamilton Islands YC of Queensland, Australia. The island is reportedly owned by wine industry multi-millionnaire Bob Oatley, 82. This would be the first Aussie challenge since 2000, although Australia, of course, was the first nation other than the U.S. to capture the Auld Mug. Thirty years ago the Aussies, funded by business mogul Alan Bond, defeated Dennis Conner's Liberty with Australia II (distinctive due to its revolutionary wing keel), skippered by John Bertrand. That effort was Bond's fourth AC attempt.
Oracle Team USA's frequent spokesman Tom Ehman, who is vice commodore of the GGYC, would neither confirm nor deny that an Australian campaign will be the next challenger, but he did confirm that a challenge has be received. The challenge also raises the question of whether key Oracle Team USA crewmen Jimmy Spithill, Tom Slingsby, Kyle Langford and Joey Newton will stay with the team, as all are Australians. Will a fat Oracle paycheck trump national loyalty as it has for New Zealand-born OTUSA CEO Russell Coutts?
Meanwhile, Ellison acknowledged that one of the biggest challenges of the next America's Cup will be to "get more countries to participate while keeping the event as spectacular as it was this year." At first glance, it would seem that the easiest path to that goal would be to go with one-designs, or at least have most of the more critical and expensive parts be one-design, and eliminate the wings in favor of soft sails. We're not against wings in principle, and the technology is already there. The problem is that they require so many people — 30 to 50 in the case of the 72s — to step and unstep each day. Suddenly the team payroll becomes astronomical. While MOD70s trimaran — or something similar — might not be quite as fast or quite as thrilling as the AC72s, they can certainly be a lot less expensive to build and maintain.
In the right wind conditions, 10 knots to about 22 knots instead of 5 knots to 33 knots as originally planned, the AC72s proved to be spectacular boats. The fact that they are unsustainably expensive to maintain and difficult to sail means it's unlikely that were going to see anything quite as spectacular anytime soon — although a source inside the Oracle camp told us they will be shipped, along with five years of spare parts, to Ellison's island of Lanai. What he would do with them there is beyond us. (Is Larry going to sell rides to tourists?) But we are going to miss seeing them streaking across San Francisco Bay.
Ellison's other challenge is with the city of San Francisco. While Mayor Ed Lee has stated he wants the America's Cup to come back, a lot of San Francisco officials and residents have such hatred for the ultra-rich that they'd cut off their noses to spite their faces. Like Ellison or not — he said he doesn't take it personally if local sailors supported the Kiwis, as many did — the America's Cup brought a lot of people, good publicity and tons of money to San Francisco. If the next Cup has 10 syndicates or more, we believe it would attract a lot more people and superyachts, the latter being another attraction that people love or love to hate — it would be a great thing.
The current status is that Ellison will discuss the site of the next America's Cup with senior members of the team, and with local government officials. He says he personally would like to see it stay on the Bay, if possible. He cited the beauty, the great sailing conditions — and the fact that he has a home here. But honestly, having seen these spectacular sailing machines match racing and reaching speeds of up to 47.57 knots where everyone can see them from shore, how could the America's Cup be held anywhere else?
But now is not the time to worry about such things. Let's just savor the incredible sailing spectacle that we were lucky enough to be able to experience — with a giant assist from Stan Honey and his LiveLine team — and the incredible comeback on the part of Oracle Team USA. It truly was one for the ages.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/29/1303:35 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
There is no stability software on OTUSA... Coutts denied it outright. Gladwell is tarnishing his good name continuing on with this nonsense.
Tad, you lost me with the reference to Gladwell. If you are referring to Mike's cut 'n paste from Latitude 38, the author of that was Richard Spindler. My apologies if I have missed something here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/29/1304:13 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Undecided
There is no stability software on OTUSA... Coutts denied it outright. Gladwell is tarnishing his good name continuing on with this nonsense.
Tad, you lost me with the reference to Gladwell. If you are referring to Mike's cut 'n paste from Latitude 38, the author of that was Richard Spindler. My apologies if I have missed something here.
I was told that it was Gladwell that wrote that.
Regardless, Gladwell irritated the hell out of me with the constant crap about cheating in the ACWS.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1302:17 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
There is no stability software on OTUSA... Coutts denied it outright. Gladwell is tarnishing his good name continuing on with this nonsense.
Uh huh! Do you remeber the story of Mr. Armstrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't OTUSA have rule 69 issue? Just because Russel says something doesn't necessarly make it true and I like the guy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1305:08 PM
Dave,
And what evidence do you have that such a system exists? The onus is on the accuser to bring evidence - otherwise they're the very definition of "baseless accusations".
Turns out that the whole "SAS" thing was a rampant speculation by a kiwi engineer on his facebook page that the kiwi media ran with...
from SA:
Quote
This comes from something I posted on another thread, but I felt it was worth re-stating.
Firstly, both Coutts and Tom Speer have stated clearly that there was no Stability Augmentation System used on Oracle.
The rumours regarding a Stability Augmentation System originated on the Facebook page of a kiwi called Paul Wiggans https://www.facebook.../paul.wiggans.3, a mechanical engineer. It appears to have been based on speculation only with no inside knowledge of what systems Oracle actually used. It was then circulated to a bunch of gullible journos (including Clean) who were desperate to find a scapegoat for TNZ's loss. As a result it's now widely believed by the NZ public that Oracle won the Americas Cup by cheating.
It's a sad indictment of how social media can shape national opinion.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1305:12 PM
I think there was a little more to it than one blogger getting it wrong...NZ did file something questioning something like that during the event. The baseless-ness of it would also explain why the jury responded with "even if you had filed in time, we would have ruled in Oracle's favor".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1305:21 PM
There had to come a time when the IJ wished that they were anywhere else, doing anything else. They stated when issuing the penalty that they did not want to decide the outcome of the cup 'in the room,' which nearly happened.
As bad as the incident was, I still don't understand how they had the authority to dock the points. The ACWS was purely a marketing event, and while I agree with penalizing cheaters, can't get my head around taking points away from the AC based upon that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1305:29 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I think there was a little more to it than one blogger getting it wrong...NZ did file something questioning something like that during the event. The baseless-ness of it would also explain why the jury responded with "even if you had filed in time, we would have ruled in Oracle's favor".
There are two issues being confused here. ETNZ wanted to know how Oracle was controlling their foils. This is why they filed a protest. Oracle's foils are controlled via push button that actuate servos that you can buy at a hobby shop that control hydraulic valves. Thats direct from the horses' mouth. THAT is what ETNZ wanted to protest - nothing having to do with any kind of stability software.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1306:54 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
There had to come a time when the IJ wished that they were anywhere else, doing anything else. They stated when issuing the penalty that they did not want to decide the outcome of the cup 'in the room,' which nearly happened.
As bad as the incident was, I still don't understand how they had the authority to dock the points. The ACWS was purely a marketing event, and while I agree with penalizing cheaters, can't get my head around taking points away from the AC based upon that.
Mike
The way this rolled over is tinted with a lot of irony. When developing the rules for this iteration of the AC, a rule was put in place that provided the IJ the authority to penalize teams for actions that "tarnish the image of the cup" (I paraphrase...but you get the idea). The intent of the rule was pretty clear in that it was to prevent Grant Dalton from making loud and negative public comments about the AC as he has been prone to in the past. The rule was comically referred to as "the Dalton rule". NZ's protest against Oracle related to the AC45 cheating were about Oracle having tarnished the image of the cup. The protest, and the subsequent penalties and had nothing to do with one class of boats vs. another. This is how it rolled into the 72 footers. I would bet that rule gets a tweak before the next iteration.
In my opinion, the real tarnishing of the cup happened with the publicity related to the protest, hearing, and rulings. Otherwise, it would have been a small blurb in one of Richard Gladwell's articles...Oracle turns in their trophies from the AC45's and all would be well.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1306:55 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Jake
I think there was a little more to it than one blogger getting it wrong...NZ did file something questioning something like that during the event. The baseless-ness of it would also explain why the jury responded with "even if you had filed in time, we would have ruled in Oracle's favor".
There are two issues being confused here. ETNZ wanted to know how Oracle was controlling their foils. This is why they filed a protest. Oracle's foils are controlled via push button that actuate servos that you can buy at a hobby shop that control hydraulic valves. Thats direct from the horses' mouth. THAT is what ETNZ wanted to protest - nothing having to do with any kind of stability software.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1309:05 PM
Rumour has it that swiss billionaire Ernesto is also somehow involved (Auslingi?). After AC33 his own yachtclub had probably burnt too many ships anyway.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/30/1311:14 PM
Monday's Latitude 38
All the clamor — mostly from New Zealand, but also from the United States — that Oracle Team USA 'must have' cheated in its spectacular comeback from 8 to 1 to retain the Cup is rapidly dying down. There are a number of reasons why.
First of all, on Saturday, Kiwi honcho Grant Dalton firmly denied rumors that the Kiwis were going to sue, allegedly on the basis that Oracle had used an illegal or semi-illegal automatic system to improve the stablity of their cat. During a Radio Sport interview, Dalton said, "Absolutely not [to a legal challenge], in any shape, form or any other way. It would be an incredibly bad thing to do."
It's the last sentence that epitomizes why so many sailing fans — Latitude included — have such love and respect for the Kiwis. They are perceived as true sportsmen, who care so much about sport that they only want to win on the water, not in the courtroom.
The defeat was very hard on members of the Kiwi team, particularly helmsman Dean Barker, who is known to be particularly sensitive, and no doubt felt he had been carrying the weight of the country on his shoulders. Dalton, who is as rough and tough as they come, said he was having a "brutal" time of it, too, but for a slightly different reason. Having long said that the 34th would be his last America's Cup, he was devastated by the fact that the team he worked with so hard for the better part of three years was coming apart, as other sailing bodies were trying to entice team members away.
A second reason the clamor is dying down is that Barker has said that, by the end of the Cup, Oracle's cat was simply set up better and faster.
Did Oracle have an illegal, automatic Stability Augmentation System that made their cat easier to control than the Kiwi cat, as many have alleged? Not according to highly-respected journalist Matthew Sheahan of Yachting World, who had access to some pretty good sources. While Sheahan said he didn't know exactly what Oracle had, he was led to believe it was a ratcheting system, sort of like gears on a bicycle, for different fixed settings for angles of attack. It should be remembered that the board could move on three axis.
Writing in his America's Cup blog for Yachting World, Sheahan seems to have gotten more inside poop than other journalists about differences in the Oracle cat and the changes that were made to her in the middle of the Cup.
1. Oracle had lower drag foils that were faster, but had to learn from the Kiwis, after the Cup started, how to pop up on them quickly. The Kiwis, by the way, had had many more days on the water with their cat. Oracle's foils had less curve and were three feet less deep.
2. Oracle added a filet on their T-shaped rudders to reduce cavitation, and perhaps 'nose cones' on the front of the rudders.
3. Oracle added an 'interceptor', or vertical plate, on the transom to modify water flow.
4. Oracle had or went to an asymmetrical set-up, with more of an angle of attack on the starboard board to improve upwind performance on port, which was the tack you wanted to be on when the wind cranked left on the windward leg. The asymmetrical set-up was also an advantage going downwind.
5. Oracle added more mast rake, just as Jeff Thorpe had hollered about, for better upwind performance and balance.
6. Oracle added more vertical leech on the lower sections of their wing, and more twist off the top.
According to Sheahan, Oracle made the biggest changes on October 16, when they were down 7-1. They still lost the next race, but won the next eight to retain the Cup.
In the humor department, Oracle apparently dubbed their boats the 'Mistress' and the 'Wife'. The Mistress, which was the first boat, was more wild and wayward. You'll remember she's the one that flipped and broke apart, then had to be rebuilt. They won the Cup with the more reliable Wife.
While at the St. Francis YC Big Boat Series, we ran into Gino Morrelli. Naturally our discussion turned to the America's Cup. Morrelli, who is half of the Huntington Beach-based Morrelli & Melvin design firm that drew up the huge Oracle trimaran that wrestled the 33rd America's Cup away from the Swiss, says sailing can now be divided into two eras: BF, or before foiling, and AF, or after foiling.
After Oracle won the 33rd Cup, they commissioned studies on what boat should be used for the 34th Cup. M&M was put in charge of coming up with proposals for multihulls. "Trimarans as well as catamarans were considered, but trimarans had to be dropped from consideration because they couldn't fit into a 747 for shipping," says Gino. Under the rules of the 34th America's Cup, AC72s had to be capable of being disassembled for shipping in under 48 hours. The idea was that they would be flown from city to city on a world tour. That idea was dropped in favor of the AC45, which were shipped from site to site for World Series events.
Early on, it looked as though monohulls were favored for the 34th Cup, but ultimately it was decided to go with 72-ft cats — with certain limitations. A number of design constraits were put into the AC72 formula to keep them from foiling. But they weren't enough. "As soon as it was agreed the cats could have T-shaped rudders, we knew we could get them to foil," says Morrelli. "We didn't know exactly how, just that it would be possible."
Latino Mascalone, the Challenger of Record, had the power of veto on the design. According to Morrelli, they agreed that the cats could have boards that could be raised and lowered, the pitch changed, and canted, but nothing could be done with the rudders. "It was like insisting we design airplanes with no controls on the tails, which would result in a dead stick." The AC72s ultimately would foil, but not nearly as well as they could have if there had been no limitations on the rudder adjustments.
It took about four months for all the interested parties to hammer out the parameters of the cats. It then became basically Morrelli & Melvin's job to come up with a formula for the AC72s, and to then try and find loopholes in it.
While Oracle is always the one accused of working loopholes and pressing the boundary of the spirit of the event, it must be remembered that it was the Kiwis, whose boat was designed by Pete Melvin, who shocked the world by foiling. Once that happened, everyone else had to struggle to catch up, particularly Artemis, whose first cat was not supposed to be a fully foiling cat.
Morrelli says he doesn't know what control device Oracle had for their boards, but halfway through the Cup he suspects they started to use a system where, by pushing just one button, they could alter the board on more than one axis at once. The Kiwis, he believes, could only control one axis with a button, and had to do the others with winches and such, which was slower and thus less effective.
To put the final nail in the 'Oracle cheated' coffin, Kimball Livingston pointed out in Blue Planet Times that the Kiwis requested the International Jury consider the legality of Oracle's system for controlling their boards. On August 8, the jury — which included one Kiwi but no Americans — said they had investigated and ruled that the system was "human controlled" and therefore legal. In fact, the only component of the system New Zealand was challenging was a small spring in the linear actuator. If you read Public Interpretation PI-49 you'll see that although not human powered, springs are allowed.
His laugh about the SAS is pretty telling. Sometimes I wonder if Oracle themselves actually know what made their boat so much faster, the danger of changing many things at once
His laugh about the SAS is pretty telling. Sometimes I wonder if Oracle themselves actually know what made their boat so much faster, the danger of changing many things at once
With an armada of load sensors built into nearly everything in the boat? They know.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/01/1302:48 PM
Okay, so what's the best way to position yourself to get on one of the next AC teams?
Become a bad-az match racer? (which most likely would be monos) Become a rowing champion? Train on a trampoline? Become a superb computer geek? Collect a few olympic sailing medals?
I'd hope that the AC Youth thing would be a good "Farm League" for people to get picked from
To get to the AC Youth series, where would you position yourself?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/01/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Okay, so what's the best way to position yourself to get on one of the next AC teams?
Become a bad-az match racer? (which most likely would be monos) Become a rowing champion? Train on a trampoline? Become a superb computer geek? Collect a few olympic sailing medals?
I'd hope that the AC Youth thing would be a good "Farm League" for people to get picked from
To get to the AC Youth series, where would you position yourself?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/01/1308:42 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Okay, so what's the best way to position yourself to get on one of the next AC teams?
Become a bad-az match racer? (which most likely would be monos) Become a rowing champion? Train on a trampoline? Become a superb computer geek? Collect a few olympic sailing medals?
I'd hope that the AC Youth thing would be a good "Farm League" for people to get picked from
To get to the AC Youth series, where would you position yourself?
Pretty much all of the above. Add to that, "Having good connections."
But of you're thinking about AC35, you're already too late. The vast majority of people that will be involved with AC35, were already involved with AC34, at least in some role. There's not a whole lot of turnover.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/01/1309:59 PM
Originally Posted by mbounds
But of you're thinking about AC35, you're already too late. The vast majority of people that will be involved with AC35, were already involved with AC34, at least in some role. There's not a whole lot of turnover.
Thanks for the link Philip, that was a very worth while watch. Seems even these big mono hull guys finally "Get IT" when it comes to cats! They also mentioned making it more affordable, ie. smaller boats, but cats, and they mentioned wings, so that might stay, and they mentioned foiling, so I guess we will probably see all of the above in AC 35.
They also mentioned the World Series and doing fly-by's in front of the Sydney Opera House! At 14-17 seconds into this video you can see the Opera House in the background, left of the big bridge. BTW, they do walking tours over the top arch of that bridge! (you have to pay to go over the top)
I'm guessing that would only be with the World Series boats, unless they win the AC and then 6 years from now they do it in SYD Harbor. I'm pretty sure Larry E. is going to hold AC 35 in SFO Bay again.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1312:47 PM
If they do an ACWS in Sydney we're totally going to go. Sydney harbor reminded me a lot of San Francisco bay just a bit smaller. It'd be a great place to have an ACWS with TONS of park area right on the harbor to watch from.
"Sir Ben Ainslie could have enjoyed the moment he had dreamt of all his life, being a major player in a successful America’s Cup project, but while the drinks were flying and backs understandably slapped after “Team Oracle USA” had come back from a supposedly unassailable 8-1 down to beat “Emirates New Zealand” 9-8, Ainslie sat with Percy to honour their lost friend."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1302:56 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
The best part of the presser: Larry said that it would be great if more kids start sailing, and if they sail HOBIE CATS instead of Lasers!
He later botched it a bit by talking about Lasers a lot, but did circle back and again mentioned getting kids onto cats!!!!!
We need to find a way to tap into this momentum...
I can't find the video with these comments. Can someone provide the link to the press conference? How about the NBC commentary about US yacht clubs needing to get kids on high performance boats?
Is it just my iPad or have a lot of videos disappeared?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1303:03 PM
Originally Posted by David Parker
Originally Posted by brucat
The best part of the presser: Larry said that it would be great if more kids start sailing, and if they sail HOBIE CATS instead of Lasers!
He later botched it a bit by talking about Lasers a lot, but did circle back and again mentioned getting kids onto cats!!!!!
We need to find a way to tap into this momentum...
I can't find the video with these comments. Can someone provide the link to the press conference? How about the NBC commentary about US yacht clubs needing to get kids on high performance boats?
Is it just my iPad or have a lot of videos disappeared?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1303:42 PM
I was thinking more of AC36 and beyond for a relative who just got out of college. Very athletic & lightweight, but a little skinny on the sailing resume.
As a multihull kool-aide drinker, it's hard to comprehend having to start on Optis...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1306:12 PM
Originally Posted by "mmiller"
Originally Posted by "Roger"
Quote from Larry Ellison at post-race press conference today: "I think a lot of people who were never interested in sailing suddenly got interested in sailing. I think a lot of young kids are going to go out now and try sailing. They might jump on a Hobie Cat rather than a Laser, who knows . . ."
Found the quote in the press conference. Cool!! Larry references Hobie Cats at about 47:56
We have been working hard to ride this one. The Simpson accident put a lot on hold I think. We are still working on this for the future.
I am surprised at how little the whole cup thing got onto media. Greg Thomas was over in France during the finals and said he simply could not get anything on it. The french guys at the factory were oblivious to it. He saw the final race when he returned. You really had to be dialed into the event to know what was going on. So, the event is not the key to our success as cat sailors, but getting Oracle and the AC to invest in new sailors, especially if on cats, possibly is.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1307:41 PM
Yes I remember that, Slingsby even yells Starboard to the kiwis as if they could hear him He possible overdid the turn a bit for dramatic effect, and gave ETNZ a penalty.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1304:14 PM
Originally Posted by tshan
The crew walking from the wing toward the hull makes me laugh for some reason.
He stops a stares at NZ frozen for a moment before he falls back into the wing when the boat turns. It's clear by his reaction that it was close. I think I would have been running toward the back.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1307:49 PM
Some interesting replies in the Reddit AMA.
Quote
–]rminelli 2 points 1 minute ago you mentioned high, fast and beast mode. what did beast mode entail, how was it different from fast mode? permalinkreportgive goldreply [–]JSpithill[S] 1 point 29 seconds ago It entailed the grinders acting like a bunch of wild animals
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1307:51 PM
Quote
[–]1smokinweed 1 point 14 minutes ago Did you switch to more obtuse angled foils during the finals or use the same foils in all 19 races? permalinkreportgive goldreply [–]JSpithill[S] 3 points 13 minutes ago Same foils all 19 races permalinkparentreportgive goldreply
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1307:57 PM
Quote
[–]lichelle12 1 point 10 minutes ago Hey Jimmy ... I am not interested in sailing, but am now after watching the cut throat race with ETNZ - I was on the edge of my seat shouting at the TV!!! I cried when we lost ... Do you see/socialise with Dean when you are in NZ? permalinkreportgive goldreply [–]JSpithill[S] 3 points 9 minutes ago I'm not expecting a Christmas card
"In a 60 Minutes exclusive, Belinda Henley talks to Oracle Skipper Jimmy Spithill about his remarkable America’s Cup win, billed as the biggest comeback in sporting history."
"The Australian-born sailor who broke New Zealand's hearts with his come-from-behind victory in the America's Cup admits he lied at press conferences during the regatta."
The surprise admission by Oracle skipper Jimmy Spithill - made to 60 Minutes reporter Belinda Henley for a show to be screened tomorrow night - reveals how far he stretched the truth to try to rock Team New Zealand captain Dean Barker.
"Most of it at press conferences is all about trying to get into the other guy's head, playing mind games," Spithill said. "Every time I stated we could win, that was true. Every time I said we wouldn't give up, that was true ... But when I was saying we were changing the boat every night ... nah, we weren't. We made a few changes but we wanted it to be known we were doing huge things every night."
Oracle trimmer Joe Newton, a childhood friend of Spithill's, backed his skipper's actions.
"Jimmy is a rough little redhead from Sydney - he's a grubby little thing in the press conferences."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1308:59 PM
more from the above link worth quoting.
Spithill also said he was amazed at the rumours that swirled around one of the greatest comebacks in the history of sport.
"The last one I heard, [Sir Russell] Coutts had a remote control sitting on the chase boat. He could drive grinders, drive the boat ... he could do everything. I wish he had; it would have made it much easier for us."
Likewise, Spithill dismissed talk of automation being introduced to stabilise the Oracle boat midway through the challenge - some reports called the device Herbie.
"It's comedic, this talk of there being a super system on the boat ... [It's] people trying to look for a silver bullet. Unfortunately [it] just came down to hard work.
"Let me be crystal clear, because obviously you are very misled: There is no Herbie. Herbie is a car that drives around in movies.
"This super stability system, if anyone has got it, send it to me and we will use it next time. For people to suggest or come up with fairytales, it's comedic. [I] can't believe people coming up with that.
"I'd be shocked if it was coming from Team NZ as they are champions and there is no way they would suggest that, as it was a fair fight and they were beaten fair and square.
"Our boat was measured every morning and afternoon just like Team New Zealand."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1303:53 AM
Originally Posted by davefarmer
Thanks again Phillip for all the great links! You've made following this awesome series effortless.
Dave
Thanks Dave, and everyone else who has shouted out here. I've also received many compliments by emails, text, PM, and phone calls, where everybody expressed the same theme. This thread was their one stop shop for all things AC.
It was just brought to my attention, that this thread has received more views than any other (sailing related) thread in catsailor.com history. Good Times with a great topic. Thanks all.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1304:24 AM
Here are the numbers behind the event:
• 190 countries broadcast and viewed the America’s Cup on television • America’s Cup broadcast in news bulletins globally 15,000 times • Over 320,000 downloads of the America’s Cup app making it into the top 20 most download free sports app in the USA • Over 1 million visitors to the official public sites in San Francisco at America’s Cup Park and America’s Cup Village. Hundreds of thousands more viewed the racing from the city front • Nearly 10,000 hospitality guests • Over 5 million unique visitors to AmericasCup.com in September and over 45-million page views during the Summer of Racing (July 1 to September 26) • 24.8 million views of videos on YouTube • Over 100 million minutes of videos viewed in the past month • 575 accredited media, from 32 countries • A 19 show America’s Cup Concert Series • Over 25% of the population of New Zealand watched the racing broadcast live during the America’s Cup Finals • 750 volunteers donated 50,000 hours of their time • 1.2 million fans on social media • 21,000 members on the Crew Fan Club • Over 1,000 local business contracted for the event • 17,000 pounds of trash removed from the Bay shoreline by the volunteers of the Healthy Ocean Project
Here are the FIRST for this event.
• First time racing has been held off the city front rather than offshore • First time racing downtown in a major world city • First time – 50 mph – Foiling! • First time there has been an America’s Cup Concert Series
The numbers speak for themselves. Larry got it right!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1301:43 PM
I've got to admit - based on the LV series and the mechanical issues we saw with various breakdowns, I was pleasantly surprised to see how reliable these boats were throughout the competition.
Considering the relative lack of racing for Oracle leading into the event, the boat held up well minus the one wing skin puncture/tear. They had zero margin to deal with a mechanical failure - particularly after playing their postponement card so early. I think Barker made reference to it in one of the recent interviews Philip posted.....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1304:03 PM
I doubt they'd tell us, but I'm sure there were more issues and repairs than we know about. Still, I agree that they held up remarkably well, and I think had even fewer wing skin issues than the 45s.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1307:05 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
what are we looking at there?
Tough to see with the forums resizing the pic, but there are three hard points installed on the lake that look proportionally like the distance between the hulls on DoGzilla.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1307:12 PM
Better there than the current resting place: the tarmac of the San Fran OTUSA base. Although, that may have been inspirational for the team leading up to this year's regatta and win...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1307:28 PM
if they took the film off the wing and left the skeleton with the ability to rotate, that would keep it from causing too much problem, eh? Aside from lightning...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1308:10 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
if they took the film off the wing and left the skeleton with the ability to rotate, that would keep it from causing too much problem, eh? Aside from lightning...
How long do you think something would survive in the elements that was purpose built for one race and a very light air race at that?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/07/1308:24 PM
There was a thread on SA a good while back showing them digging out the pond. At the time everyone thought it was for AC promo, but looks like they missed that window, even as long as it stayed open.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1311:43 AM
Spithill on Colbert Video Colbert "To be fair, the wind did a lot of the work". . . "You beat those Hobbit Humpers" Spithill "I'm not going to lie to you Mate, it feels fantastic"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1302:48 PM
I spent most of last week on a RIB. Fastest I got it going was 38 mph or 33 knots (per its speedo, not overly accurate, but close). I remember looking at how fast the water was rushing by, and thinking about those guys that were hauling at 10-15 knots FASTER on the AC72s. Hard to wrap your head around it!
Jimmy talks about coming down from the training, lead-up and racing routines, but how are these guys ever going to handle going slow ever again?
To put it even more into perspective, I sat in on some protests last week, and this statement came out in more than one hearing: "It was windy, and we were reaching, so we were going really fast. I'd say the boat speed was 6 knots." And all parties agreed...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1305:45 PM
Some friends and I chartered a sailboat and watched two days of AC34 racing on San Francisco Bay. Here are a few snapshots from our trip:
One of the support boats towing a start mark out to the course:
Team New Zealand foiling:
Team USA foiling:
The two boats racing:
Team USA approaching the edge of the course and preparing to tack. If you look closely, you can see the green boundary light on the boat. We were watching from the other side.
And, just for grins, a spectator boat with NZ fans:
“This was a first for sailing and a first for Swiss watchmaking,” said Stéphane Linder, TAG Heuer President and CEO. “It represents the next-generation of competitive sport technology. We’re looking forward to participating in similar ventures with teams across the full spectrum of professional sports.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1310:37 PM
They need to put normal functions on that and sell it. I would definitely buy one just to have it. I bought an analog Citizen Stars and Stripes watch in the early 90s, and I don't think those were even considered rare.
Anyone else have/had one of these? Mine has a metal band.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1310:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
The fact that this is not for sale makes me want it even more
The embedded system uses special editions of the commercial AQUARACER 500M CALIBRE 72 COUNTDOWN chronograph, customized for each sailor’s specific tasks and wirelessly linked directly to the boat’s onboard computers.
"It’s, in many ways, an archaic process that the America’s Cup has been putting itself through over many, many years. I think we’ve got to move towards a mechanism other sports use where they, for example, have a commissioner that has the commercial interests of the sport in line, as well as the competitive interests of the teams and can balance that."
"We can’t take a step backwards. The racing was so spectacular that we’ve got to keep the same concept. If you look at the America’s Cup brand, that is where the brand needs to be in the future"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1302:09 PM
Step one for picking any sailing venue is, find some WIND!
SFO Bay is one of the few places on the planet where you can just about guarantee great wind every day. They only had what, one day of light air in about three months of racing there?
That plus the great waterfront viewing venue was a huge plus. If it were up to me, they would always race the AC there, no matter who was the Cup Holder. I just wish we had such a windy place on the east coast, especially in Florida!
I just suffered through a two day drifter up at Lake Eustis, and last Tradewinds we never even got out on the wire, in three days of 'racing' (drifting). Thank God the beer was cold and the people were great to party with! That's what makes all the drifting worth the trip.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1303:08 PM
While no one wants to drift (especially on fast boats), a key part of sailing (and determining a champion) is the ability to sail well in all conditions.
In the US, we seem to have lots of venues that give us low and medium air, but not enough that can consistently deliver heavy air.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1303:31 PM
Seems like every time I've been into San Juan, it's been blowing pretty well. Not, 20+, but 10-15, which is perfect. The 20+ they were getting daily in SFO for the AC was great too! If the wind limit was 25 instead of 23, I think Team NZ would have won it all, early on, before Oracle figured out how to go upwind. And if the time limit was 50 minutes instead of 45, they would have won it all in that drifter too.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1303:38 PM
Quote
I think Team NZ would have won it all, early on, before Oracle figured out how to go upwind. And if the time limit was 50 minutes instead of 45, they would have won it all in that drifter too.
Coulda woulda shoulda...
fact is that they sailed fairly under a set of rules that they agreed to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1305:27 PM
Dude, chill.
I wasn't saying TNZ should have won it. I'm happy with the results in that the next AC will (most likely) also be held in the same location, SFO BAY.
I was talking about finding a good site, with consistently good wind. I remember watching the boring, slow, 12 meters racing in Newport, and the drifter in San Diego too, in 1988, but the way DC's 60 foot cat walked away from Fay's huge (90'?) light monohull, turned me into a cat fan.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/10/1305:44 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I think Team NZ would have won it all, early on, before Oracle figured out how to go upwind. And if the time limit was 50 minutes instead of 45, they would have won it all in that drifter too.
Coulda woulda shoulda...
fact is that they sailed fairly under a set of rules that they agreed to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/11/1310:52 AM
Look for an "innerview" with Spot hill on sailing anarchy today sometime. Clean posted a clip to preview and it looks like he's more open with his answers than any previous interview.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/12/1312:28 AM
Spithill on a Worldwind Tour “People have been coming up to me in the street, even when I’m not wearing team gear, to say congratulations. In San Francisco Airport I was having a hard time just getting to the gate. It’s great because it means people are paying attention to the sport and they can’t wait to see it again, which is a fantastic place for sailing to be.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/13/1312:58 AM
Shannon Falcone, grinder OTUSA, stopped by the Lahaina Yacht Club to talk with the kids on our junior sailing team.
When asked what he thought the direction was boat wise for AC 35 he said the 45s were nice to play with but the real action in on the 72s. He felt that the 72s are here to stay as four teams have already gone through the development and learning curve. He's already signed up for 2017 and expects to have a year off before the run up to the Cup starts again.
He also talked about converting from monos to cats. He said for the first year, his father and all his friends would argue that he had made a huge mistake.
His first day on the Oracle cats was when Russell Coutts pitch poled the boat and fell through the sail. Shannon got three broken ribs and was laid up for three months.
He's looking forward to winter training on Lanai and being able to return to Maui.
"SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 14, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Boeing BA +0.93% and ORACLE TEAM USA, winner of the 34th America's Cup, are collaborating to recycle 7,000 pounds (about 3,175 kilograms) of carbon fiber of USA-71, a yacht built for the America's Cup campaign in 2003. The hull and mast of the racing yacht will be processed and repurposed, a first-of-its-kind effort for what will likely be the largest carbon structure ever recycled."
"SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 14, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Boeing BA +0.93% and ORACLE TEAM USA, winner of the 34th America's Cup, are collaborating to recycle 7,000 pounds (about 3,175 kilograms) of carbon fiber of USA-71, a yacht built for the America's Cup campaign in 2003. The hull and mast of the racing yacht will be processed and repurposed, a first-of-its-kind effort for what will likely be the largest carbon structure ever recycled."
"SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 14, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Boeing BA +0.93% and ORACLE TEAM USA, winner of the 34th America's Cup, are collaborating to recycle 7,000 pounds (about 3,175 kilograms) of carbon fiber of USA-71, a yacht built for the America's Cup campaign in 2003. The hull and mast of the racing yacht will be processed and repurposed, a first-of-its-kind effort for what will likely be the largest carbon structure ever recycled."
Not enough room in the pond.
They do have two boats and the article only mentioned one to be recycled...so...~maybe?
"SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 14, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Boeing BA +0.93% and ORACLE TEAM USA, winner of the 34th America's Cup, are collaborating to recycle 7,000 pounds (about 3,175 kilograms) of carbon fiber of USA-71, a yacht built for the America's Cup campaign in 2003. The hull and mast of the racing yacht will be processed and repurposed, a first-of-its-kind effort for what will likely be the largest carbon structure ever recycled."
"SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 14, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Boeing BA +0.93% and ORACLE TEAM USA, winner of the 34th America's Cup, are collaborating to recycle 7,000 pounds (about 3,175 kilograms) of carbon fiber of USA-71, a yacht built for the America's Cup campaign in 2003. The hull and mast of the racing yacht will be processed and repurposed, a first-of-its-kind effort for what will likely be the largest carbon structure ever recycled."
For a cat..No Thanks. For a floating dock that would only last a short while...maybe.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/15/1308:50 PM
Larry kept his 80' ocean racer "Sayonara" in Michigan under inside storage at a marina for 7-10 years. He had it drug back to SF for the AC. Probably cheaper storage cost. This was the boat that scared the dog**** out of him in the Sydney to Hobart race. Wasn't there a book?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/16/1301:57 AM
Originally Posted by jkkartz1
Larry kept his 80' ocean racer "Sayonara" in Michigan under inside storage at a marina for 7-10 years. He had it drug back to SF for the AC. Probably cheaper storage cost. This was the boat that scared the dog**** out of him in the Sydney to Hobart race. Wasn't there a book?
Yes, there was a book, I have it on my bookshelf. I'll see if I can find it and get back to you with the title, but it was a great read on that SYD-Hobart race, where a big storm (hurricane/typhoon) came through and wiped out most of the fleet, kind of like that Fastnet race years ago.
Chris Dickson was his Skipper on the boat. When things went to sh!t Larry was crying like a baby and wanted off, swore he'd never do another one.
I think they ended up winning the race, but only because at 80', they were the biggest, fastest boat out there and got ahead of the worst part of the storm, where as the smaller, slower boats were crushed, lots of fatalities.
The book title is; The Proving Ground, look for it on Amazon.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/16/1309:24 PM
Looking forward to Gary Jobson's presentation on the Cup at Seattle Yacht Club this Sunday. It is a Fundraiser for Boating Programs with emphasis on Young People. www.piyasailing.org
“There were only four teams in this last event, so there’s a limited pool of sailors and designers. I think there’s a window of about two more weeks before those sailors and designers will get snapped up.”
"That race was the first time we had shown some good upwind speed and previously that is where we had been weaker than the Kiwis and we actually surprised them a little bit. I don't know if that is necessarily why they had a bad tack and nearly capsized but we got back into them and won that race and for all of us on that boat it was a turning point."
"It’s the second straight year shareholders have rejected executive pay packages, and the vote is non-binding.
“We’re constantly evaluating information and we will continue to do so,” Michael Boskin, an Oracle director, said at the meeting. “But we think we have a good process that is good corporate governance.”"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/05/1304:50 PM
Is anyone actually surprised by this? I think it's great news, he is a tough competitor, and has an obvious passion for the event. Not to mention, he's a bit of a miracle worker, and if ETNZ were not as good as they were, the entire thing in San Fran would have been boring.
None of the attention surpassed what Spithill found most moving: people suffering from cancer and other serious ailments who came up to tell him they were inspired by his never-surrender attitude. "I expected people who enjoyed sport to come up to me," said the ultra fit Spithill. "But I didn't expect that. That was by far the coolest thing about the whole aftermath."
"So the hanging question is, what actually happened to flip a predictable defeat, into an unlikely success? The answer is, again, not a simple explanation, and despite what many may think, there was no silver bullet. The rumor of a super secret automatic board control system installed mid-regatta, couldn’t have been further from the truth. The potentially catastrophic nose-dive at the reach mark in race 19 disproves this claim. Due to the previous month’s events, we were under intense scrutiny from the measurers the entire time, and we remained transparent and legal throughout, even when things got desperate.
The turn-around was a result of small ideas from smart people, where nothing was discounted. A number of little tweaks to the wing and the boat were put into play and refined. The afterguard spent time poring over video and improved the way the boat was sailed, especially upwind. And everyone embraced the philosophy that we had nothing to lose by implementing a fresh perspective, while maintaining the aspects that still worked well."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/1303:39 AM
It says something that the teams are coming back again...the true mark that "we may be onto something". What about Prada Luna Rossa? Any noise?
I hate to lose Ian Murray as Race Director...I think he's presided over the last three iterations. He will be one hell of a CEO for Australia, however. Good on 'em.
HE may have won the America's Cup by orchestrating one of sports great comebacks but sailing hero James Spithill has revealed he hasn't had a single offer to do this year's Sydney to Hobart.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/30/1303:54 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by hobie1616
If the next AC is sailed on 60 foot cats, remember where you heard it first.
With fabric sails...no wings.
Could they just use high-tech "fabric" over the wing in place of mylar and qualify?
? I'm waging that the rigid wings go away and we return to a more traditional mast and soft sail configuration. That's purely my conjecture...digest at your own risk.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/30/1304:33 PM
I would guess that if you're not a foiling boat, it wouldn't make much sense to use a rigid wing sail, since the efficiency and power generated wouldn't be as effectively harnessed?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/30/1305:25 PM
? I'm waging that the rigid wings go away and we return to a more traditional mast and soft sail configuration. That's purely my conjecture...digest at your own risk. [/quote]
shoots, what's wrong with those wealthy folks in the competition having to hire an extra 100 people to step their wing? The rich are getting richer. Spread some of that cash around. i'll take the other side of your conjecture. wings and full hydro foiling, and hopefully same on the world series trainers. edit; i believe there was an interview where a designer said that they wouldn't be able to foil thru a jibe with a regular main. i was wondering if you put a hinged boom with a control arm on a soft sail, would that make it so the boom wouldn't need to violently swing across? maybe speed up the jibe?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/31/1305:22 PM
hang on, it wasn't the foiling jibe issue for not using a soft sail. It was the sheet loads on a soft sail vs a wing. the wing is trimmed by 1 guy on a winch, giving a very quick response time. They would be luffing along/or pinching in the gusts, or going over because the main didn't let out fast enough. The boats are too active for the soft sails in strong wind due to the crazy high main sheet load on a regular boom and the time it would take to ease and trim .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/31/1306:32 PM
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
hang on, it wasn't the foiling jibe issue for not using a soft sail. It was the sheet loads on a soft sail vs a wing. the wing is trimmed by 1 guy on a winch, giving a very quick response time. They would be luffing along/or pinching in the gusts, or going over because the main didn't let out fast enough. The boats are too active for the soft sails in strong wind due to the crazy high main sheet load on a regular boom and the time it would take to ease and trim .
Hmmmm...interesting point. I hadn't considered that. One of the complaints coming out of the Extreme 40's was the hydraulic mainsheet system and the painfully slow release that had (I would assume they improved it since the boats came out)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/31/1308:34 PM
If you drop in on this video at about 16 mins., it shows that the 40s have a tough time getting the main back in. The ease being slow isn't as detectible, maybe because the traveler is an option. When they let it out they need to reach slightly off while they are waiting to get the sail back in. Sometimes they pinch up to avoid the need to ease. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpOb48Mp54 Jibing with the boom it looks like no big deal. If the main was out, then it would slam over. The wings hold the flow much better in the transitions in any case. The force on the 72s sheet is 1 ton. Soft sail force? many times more. The force on the back beam changes too.
edit. so maybe it was the upwind foiling that he said would be hampered by a soft sail
"But if "Herbie" was so crucial, why was USA so far off the pace early in the regatta? The major factor, says Drummond, was the lack of co-ordination between replacement wing trimmer Kyle Langford and Spithill following Dirk de Ridder's suspension for cheating.
The relationship between helmsman and wing trimmer was similar to two people attempting to drive a car around a corner at high speed, explained Drummond.". . . .
"The technology they employed is already filtering down to the recreational yachting sector.
Auckland boasts three 33ft cats capable of foiling just for fun, says Drummond, who owns one of them, SL33. It was used by Team New Zealand as an early training boat."
Luna Rossa Challenge moves to Cagliari where the team will install its new base in view of the 35th America’s Cup, scheduled to take place in the Summer of 2017. The work to set up the base will start in the coming weeks and it is expected that it could be operating as early as March. From May onwards the sailing team will start training on the water.
Patrizio Bertelli, President of Luna Rossa Challenge, declared: “We chose Cagliari because the weather conditions in this bay are ideal for training with catamarans. The city of Cagliari also offers excellent logistic solutions and has given us a particularly warm welcome. We are very pleased, after several years abroad, to have the team base back in Italy again.”
'We're pleased with the way the Challenger of Record, is acting. They are acting like a Challenger of Record and not a puppet that we have dealt with for the last ten years,'
Nationality is also obviously being discussed, with one recent poll of fans showing almost 80% were in favour of a tighter nationality requirement for the sailing crews.
'Certainly the talk has been about a Nationality Rule, and I think Russell (Coutts) wants a nationality rule – and we absolutely support a nationality rule,'
'Dalton says the Australian Challenger of Record, Hamilton Island Yacht Club, want real Cost Containment rules in the Protocol. 'The Aussies want cost containment, and we have been banging on about that for a long time.'
'In the immediate future the team has more pressing issues, with 40 container loads of gear, plus four AC72 hulls, and cross-beams, arriving at a base - which is soon to be demolished.'
'It’s still hard to believe that we out-prepared Oracle by that much, ahead of this regatta, and lost the regatta', he says with the incredulity of the 9-8 result, still to fully register.
'It is hard to come to grips with it. Normally when you out-prepare a team by that much in any sport, you come away with a victory. And it didn’t happen that way.'
'We had three races taken off us, and we were leading in all three. As the clock went on Oracle were getting stronger and stronger. With hindsight maybe we should have pushed to do more racing earlier on in the series.'
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/22/1411:14 AM
Originally Posted by P.M.
'In the immediate future the team has more pressing issues, with 40 container loads of gear, plus four AC72 hulls, and cross-beams, arriving at a base - which is soon to be demolished.'
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/22/1401:53 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by P.M.
'In the immediate future the team has more pressing issues, with 40 container loads of gear, plus four AC72 hulls, and cross-beams, arriving at a base - which is soon to be demolished.'
The base or gear?
Figures you would be the one asking that! ;-) The base is being demolished...they're trying to build a new one that will also be more of a tourist destination.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/23/1401:29 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by P.M.
'In the immediate future the team has more pressing issues, with 40 container loads of gear, plus four AC72 hulls, and cross-beams, arriving at a base - which is soon to be demolished.'
The base or gear?
Figures you would be the one asking that! ;-) The base is being demolished...they're trying to build a new one that will also be more of a tourist destination.
Haha, can't help myself.
Sounds like a good idea. I think I would be interested in visiting if I was ever in the area.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/24/1412:25 AM
If you haven't read the book "The Billionaire and the Mechanic" by Julian Guthrie, you should check it out. It's basically a history of Larry Ellison and his goal to win the America's Cup. Good read.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/25/1406:54 PM
Next AC in Hawaii? http://m.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/2014/01/americas-cup-holder-says-next-event.html?r=full&goback=%2Egde_2634393_member_5832422013813157891#%21
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/26/1405:50 PM
Originally Posted by H17cat
Next AC in Hawaii? http://m.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/2014/01/americas-cup-holder-says-next-event.html?r=full&goback=%2Egde_2634393_member_5832422013813157891#%21
Now that would be interesting.
Unlikely...not much of a theater for crowds (or, at least, people to make the "crowds"). It would be more expensive to house teams, boats, and facilities and would be more expensive for people to come watch. It's more likely that it's being presented as a negotiating tactic so Oracle can fabricate some leverage with San Francisco.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/26/1409:14 PM
Until they crashed their boat OTUSA planned to set up a winter training base at Kaumalapau Harbor on the west side of Lanai. Their practice area would have been twelve miles out to avoid the humpbacks that populate the area in the winter.
It wouldn't be surprising to see them start winter practice in 2015 on Lanai. Larry's already got crew housing (two Four Seasons hotels) and his 200 foot boat he lives on when he's in the area.
“We are looking at concepts that are similar to the AC72 - a foiling cat with wingsail. The consensus from teams is that this was a good concept and we want a smaller version in the 60 to 65 foot range."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/17/1401:50 PM
"Sail-World's NZ Editor, Richard Gladwell talks with Pete Melvin (USA) previous World A-Class World Champion, leading multihull designer and one of the developers of the America's Cup Class rule for the 34th and 35th America's Cups.
In this long (20 minute) interview, Pete Melvin covers the developments in the A-Class over the past few years, the advent and issues with foiling, and then changes to the America's Cup design and rule issues, including the approaches taken with the new rule for the 35th America's Cup expected to be announced in mid-March 2014."
Paul Bieker (USA), Dimitri Despierres (FRA), Len Imas (USA), Hal Youngren (USA), Aaron Perry (USA), Bryan Baker (USA), Juan Vila (ESP), Scott Ferguson (USA), Christoph Erbelding (GER), Thomas Hahn (GER), Steven Roberts (FRA), Jose Luis Vela (ESP), Tom Speer (USA), Eric Jolley (USA), Andrew Gaynor (USA), Ian Burns (AUS), JB Braun (USA), Kurt Jordan (USA)
A wrap-up economic impact study by the Bay Area Council Economic Institute released in December found that the event created 2,863 jobs, down from original projections of 8,840 jobs. That study also found that the event, which stretched over roughly three months, generated at least $364 million in total economic impact. That figure rises to more than $550 million if the long-planned construction of a new cruise ship terminal, which the regatta served as a catalyst to finally get built, is factored in.
"To bring the America's Cup back to San Francisco, Coutts' Oracle Team USA wants the city to pony up the cost of the venues, the police security and the utility connections, just like last time. The city wants Oracle CEO Larry Ellison to pay those expenses, thus reducing taxpayer exposure. We'll let those discussions unfold at City Hall. But I wouldn't bet against Ellison. He tends to win these things. And if he doesn't, he'll take his sailboats and go play elsewhere. Hawaii and San Diego are two top alternatives. "
“An overriding theme of both documents is an effort to reduce costs and increase media exposure, so that teams can provide a better return to their sponsors for significantly less money than was required last time.”
"The team has scheduled practice against Team Australia, representing the Hamilton Island Yacht Club, the Challenger of Record for the 35th America’s Cup."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/02/1404:22 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
... And if he doesn't, he'll take his sailboats and go play elsewhere. Hawaii and San Diego are two top alternatives. "[/i]
San Diego is known to the world kite boarding community, as one of the Lightest wind places in the world. IF these fast Cat's were to race there, then the low wind side of that technology would get further developed. It's something that i personally would be very Happy about.Anyone can go fast when the wind is Blowing hard, try it when there's only 10-12Kts of wind available, (the Norm in SD) !!
I lived and did Hang gliding in SD for 20 years, the place is not so good for steady-strong wind. After Kiting at Mohave for 10 years, i couldn't even GO kite boarding in San Diego because the aria on my equipment was too small and i didn't have correct technique for light wind kiting even if i had borrowed the correct size kite for the wind.
SO -- SD would open up the, "Wind-Range" for these foiling cats.
"Belcher, the 2013 Rolex ISAF World Sailor of Year, Olympic Champion, five-time World 470 Champion and quadruple 2013 ISAF Sailing World Cup Winner, will lead Team Australia’s first training sessions on iconic Sydney Harbour from March to June 2014 with Oracle Team USA. Team Australia will use the training sessions to rotate a number of crew through the boat, introducing them to the AC45 catamaran, as they race against Oracle Team USA."
Great interview revealing a lot of great stuff. Don't miss it.
"Bieker is widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost foil-design experts, and while he wisely tries to dodge the limelight, Oracle Team USA has again tapped Bieker for AC35, this time in the role of lead design engineer."
Great interview revealing a lot of great stuff. Don't miss it.
"Bieker is widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost foil-design experts, and while he wisely tries to dodge the limelight, Oracle Team USA has again tapped Bieker for AC35, this time in the role of lead design engineer."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/07/1404:36 PM
No accumulators in AC34. The safety interest with the accumulators now are the result of the near capsize of NZ when they had no pressure to correct trim during that brief pivotal moment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/07/1405:19 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
No accumulators in AC34. The safety interest with the accumulators now are the result of the near capsize of NZ when they had no pressure to correct trim during that brief pivotal moment.
There were small accumulators in AC34 - just not enough to really do anything substantial.
"Ellison sees the Atlantic Division championship regatta being held in the Port of Rome and the Pacific Division championship in Shanghai. A couple of months later, the Atlantic and Pacific division winners will race their AC60s off Honolulu for the Louis Vuitton Cup. The Louis Vuitton winner would stay in Hawaii to race their AC60 against Oracle Team USA in the 35th America's Cup."
"This time, the AC45 racing would be more than a pretty preseason show leading up to the America's Cup. Each AC45 race would determine whether you qualify for the division championship in AC60s in 2017."
"So the next America's Cup actually begins with the AC45 racing in 2015," Ellison said. "Every race is important - just like Formula One."
"Ellison sees the Atlantic Division championship regatta being held in the Port of Rome and the Pacific Division championship in Shanghai. A couple of months later, the Atlantic and Pacific division winners will race their AC60s off Honolulu for the Louis Vuitton Cup. The Louis Vuitton winner would stay in Hawaii to race their AC60 against Oracle Team USA in the 35th America's Cup."
"This time, the AC45 racing would be more than a pretty preseason show leading up to the America's Cup. Each AC45 race would determine whether you qualify for the division championship in AC60s in 2017."
"So the next America's Cup actually begins with the AC45 racing in 2015," Ellison said. "Every race is important - just like Formula One."
I like the sound of all of that EXCEPT the whole "racing in hawaii" part. San Francisco was pretty much perfect to watch the racing from and I can't imagine accomodations as such could be found in Hawaii (Of course, I could be totally incorrect on that account)
"Ellison sees the Atlantic Division championship regatta being held in the Port of Rome and the Pacific Division championship in Shanghai. A couple of months later, the Atlantic and Pacific division winners will race their AC60s off Honolulu for the Louis Vuitton Cup. The Louis Vuitton winner would stay in Hawaii to race their AC60 against Oracle Team USA in the 35th America's Cup."
"This time, the AC45 racing would be more than a pretty preseason show leading up to the America's Cup. Each AC45 race would determine whether you qualify for the division championship in AC60s in 2017."
"So the next America's Cup actually begins with the AC45 racing in 2015," Ellison said. "Every race is important - just like Formula One."
I like the sound of all of that EXCEPT the whole "racing in hawaii" part. San Francisco was pretty much perfect to watch the racing from and I can't imagine accomodations as such could be found in Hawaii (Of course, I could be totally incorrect on that account)
Somebody here pointed out that Hawaii would be more accessible to Australia, New Zealand, and Asian countries which makes it seem a little more possible.
As far as a bluff / leverage to San Fransisco - yes. I think that's definitely part of point. However, the two parties are pretty far apart on the negotiations...so who knows? The America's Cup needs to get the city nailed down pretty soon and it looks less likely to be San Fran as more time passes with no news.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/11/1406:14 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Redtwin
What are the odds that he is bluffing to get a better deal from San Francisco?
-Rob V. Panama City
The vibe I got in SF from the locals is that they'd rather not have the ACup come back.
What that from the articles or you talking to people on the streets?
I'm thinking it will wind up in SF again. I'm not sure that I buy the idea of HI being any more accessible to over seas teams. I think the transportation costs difference would be insignificant.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/11/1409:31 PM
My money is on San Francisco. Of course, I all but bet a kidney that the Olympics would never toss the keelboats...
Don't forget, Uncle Larry bought a house in Newport last time, and was bidding Newport against San Francisco. But, last time I checked, GGYC is still in SF...
I was in Newport this weekend. There are people who actually wanted NZ to win, based upon some comments about the "final" race that got pulled from NZ due to the time limit. One valid point, how can you kill a race when the boats are flying hulls and expect to be taken seriously? I think they learned that one the hard way, and upped the lower wind limit to avoid that issue again.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/11/1411:32 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Redtwin
What are the odds that he is bluffing to get a better deal from San Francisco?
-Rob V. Panama City
The vibe I got in SF from the locals is that they'd rather not have the ACup come back.
What that from the articles or you talking to people on the streets?
I'm thinking it will wind up in SF again. I'm not sure that I buy the idea of HI being any more accessible to over seas teams. I think the transportation costs difference would be insignificant.
I got this from my Uncle who is an investigative reporter for KGO who had his ear to the ground on a lot of the "behind the scenes" stuff that happened with the America's Cup in SF.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1401:42 PM
I think the smart move would be to have an AC45 event in HI, and keep the finals in SF. This idea of making the AC45 series count towards the finals is interesting; hopefully we won't see the cheating again. I hate the idea that reducing the number of finalists eligible to compete on the AC60s is supposed to make it more like F1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't one final race that is their championship, inviting only those with enough points to potentially win, correct?
I love the fact that Larry is constantly challenging the status quo of the event, but hate that it always seems to be done so late in the process. Change is good, but there's a point that the planning and changes need to stop, and the execution begin.
BTW, don't be fooled, the organizers aren't. Each of these peripheral cities knows their place in the process. They're aiming for (and will be happy with) an AC45 event. I've seen this up close and personal. It's not a bad thing, either, unless one loses their perspective and fails to understand the reality of the situation. Getting wound up about it is a complete waste of energy for any of us here...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1405:35 PM
So, the race in Rome and Shanghai would be on 45's? That can't be right because that would only give 2 months for the winners to build their 60s. There would be room In Honolulu for 2 more 60' cats, and there are choke hotels. The wind is offshore there, and there is a barrier reef. You would need very strong binoculars to see them race, and they will have gusty/shifty conditions, but fairly smooth water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/19/1411:16 PM
The Rome Kirby interview was great. Awesome to see how Spithill's press conferences affected/inspired the team, while the rest of civilization had pretty much written them off. Says a lot for his leadership and the whole team's abilities.
"Six months after the conclusion of the 34th America's Cup, Kiwi fans in particular, struggle for the answers as to how Oracle Team USA were able to effect a big performance turnaround, without precedent in an America's Cup regatta. Sail-World's NZ and America's Cup Editor, Richard Gladwell gives his personal perspective and analysis in this three part-series.
Gladwell was on the water for the first eight races days of the Match, flying home on Race Day 8, September 18, which also proved to be the last day on which Emirates Team NZ won a race."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1403:21 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Gladwell is very bitter... The last part about the data sharing is especially rank with contempt.
I always thought that level of data made available under the new coverage technology would be an advantage to the defender. The defender has usually tried to find a way to partake in the challenger series but the other teams usually frown really hard on that. It's the only advantage they have in that they get to test and develop against each other before taking on the defender.
Now, maybe, they may want the defender to take part in the challenger series so they can get a better idea about what they are up against.
However, clearly, even with access to all of that data on TNZ during the LV series, Oracle was not ready to race them when they started...Gladwell admits that Oracle wasn't up to speed early in the match so he kinda kills his own point about how the performance data hurt TNZ with that admission. I think Grant Dalton's earlier statement about how TNZ peaked too early is a more valid assessment of what went wrong. If TNZ had lost a couple races early in the match do you think Oracle would have been digging as deep for solutions?
The assertion that Oracle factored lower wind limits into their decision to pull the postponement card is incredibly far fetched.
Gladwell is making a bunch of noise about wind speed and wind limits and how it benefited the defeneder - somehow trying to make the point that it was all according to Oracle's plan. Its almost as if he's completely forgetting the fact that ETNZ was operating under the same set of rules for the whole regatta.
The assertion that Oracle factored lower wind limits into their decision to pull the postponement card is incredibly far fetched.
Gladwell is making a bunch of noise about wind speed and wind limits and how it benefited the defeneder - somehow trying to make the point that it was all according to Oracle's plan. Its almost as if he's completely forgetting the fact that ETNZ was operating under the same set of rules for the whole regatta.
And that the minimum wind limits were agreed to by all of the competitors about a year prior to the event.
Personally, I thought the ballast-gate penalties were incredibly harsh on Oracle. It was only the surprise twist of the Dalton Rule (the rule put in place that a competitor could be penalized for tarnishing the image of the cup) that allowed the penalty to climb from one (unrelated) series of races to the Cup match. Otherwise, the penalty would have presumably stayed within the confines of AC45 series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/14/1403:50 PM
'The ISAF jury appeared to be on a crusade to 'save the America’s Cup' and I believe they may have allowed that belief to cloud their judgment.
'In fact, it is interesting to note that around the same time, the President of ISAF was actively discussing moves to try to grab more control over the event.'
'There are many very good people in ISAF that have worked hard and given up a lot to further the interests of the sport. However, the current administration with their politically charged agenda is doing our sport a huge disservice in my view.'
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/14/1405:13 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
'The ISAF jury appeared to be on a crusade to 'save the America’s Cup' and I believe they may have allowed that belief to cloud their judgment.
'In fact, it is interesting to note that around the same time, the President of ISAF was actively discussing moves to try to grab more control over the event.'
'There are many very good people in ISAF that have worked hard and given up a lot to further the interests of the sport. However, the current administration with their politically charged agenda is doing our sport a huge disservice in my view.'
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/17/1403:48 PM
ARTEMIS RACING STRENGTHENS DESIGN TEAM WITH NEW ADDITIONS
ALAMEDA, 17th April 2014 - Artemis Racing announced today that it has signed Vincent Lauriot-Prévost, Simon Watin, Juan Garay and Matthew Davis, who will join the design team as Artemis Racing prepares for a possible 35th America’s Cup bid.
Both Vincent Lauriot-Prévost and Simon Watin join from VPLP Design, a world leader in multihull racing and super yacht design founded in 1983. During the 34th America’s Cup they were part of the America's Cup Race Management design and research team, established to create an initial design package for the high-tech wing-sailed AC72 catamarans.
Vincent Lauriot-Prévost is a naval architect and co-founder of VPLP Design based in France. During his career Lauriot-Prévost has contributed to some of the most advanced racing prototype projects, including the design of the six last winners of La Route du Rhum, the record holders of the transatlantic (New York – Lizard) and round the world (Jules Verne Trophy) races, as well as BMW ORACLE Racing’s trimaran USA 17, winner of the 33rd America’s Cup.
“Having always been at the cutting edge of fast multihull design from the early age of VPLP Design, we were first involved in the America’s Cup challenge in 2007, when the Cup turned definitively to multihulls,” said the naval architect. “This time, it is a great opportunity to collaborate with Artemis Racing on such a great foiling racing cat project, at this ultimate level of technology in the America’s Cup.”
A specialist in performance prediction, Watin graduated as a fluid mechanics engineer before specializing in naval architecture. In 2011 he joined the VPLP Yacht Design office in France where he developed in-house performance prediction and Computational Fluid Dynamics capabilities, and was involved in maxi racing trimaran projects (Prince de Bretagne 80, Sodebo 4 and Macif 100), as well as Open 60 projects (Safran 2 and Banque Populaire) for the 2016 Vendée Globe Race.
"I’m really excited to be part of the Artemis Racing team,” said Watin. “They have done an amazing job putting together a group of people that are not only very talented and experienced but also team players, and it is really motivating for me personally to have the chance to work in such an environment. Accurately predicting the performance of these boats will be quite a challenge, and we will have to sharpen our tools to be able make the right choices before launching the boats, especially since the sailing time may well be restricted."
Artemis Racing also welcomes back British electronics engineer Matthew Davis and Argentine aero designer Juan Garay.
Davis studied electrical and instrumentation engineering in Southampton, and has sailed as navigator, engineer and crew member in multiple maxi yacht races including the Rolex Transatlantic Yacht Race and Maxi Worlds. In 2009 he received the Navigator’s Award for 1st in class for LA to Hawaii Transpac Race.
Matthew was Team Telefónica’s instrument engineer for both the 2008 and 2011 Volvo Ocean Races. The 35th America’s Cup will be his third campaign following the 32nd with Victory Challenge and the 34th with Artemis Racing.
Garay has over 20 years of experience in sail design with North Sails South America, and has been involved in a variety of classes and circuits since 1990.
Juan started designing sails for Team GBR in 2006 and worked with Iain Percy, Andrew Simpson and Ben Ainslie on multiple Olympic campaigns including Beijing 2008 and London 2012. He was the sail designer for Team Origin and +39 Challenge, and the 35th America’s Cup will be his second campaign with Artemis Racing, leading the aero program development.
“I am excited to work again with such a fantastic team,” said Garay. “I have great memories of working with Iain and Bart on two successful Olympic campaigns. We worked extremely hard but managed to enjoy it at the same time. Having that collaborative and open environment in an America’s Cup team is extremely motivating.”
“We are pleased to welcome Simon and Vincent into the team, and have Juan and Matthew back with us,” said Artemis Racing design team coordinator Adam May. “Simon came to us highly recommended by a number of sources, while Vincent’s experience with big multihulls is undeniable. Juan and Matt are returning Artemis team members who bring with them a wealth of experience and great attitude in their respective areas. We continue to slowly grow our team, working hard to find the right fit of people within the group, and are fortunate to have had no shortage of great people reaching out to us, interested in getting involved,” concluded May.
" America's Cup sailor Dirk de Ridder has been suspended from sanctioned events for five years by sailing's international governing body, two people with knowledge of the decision said Tuesday.
The people spoke with The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the suspension is being appealed.
Unless a review board or the Court of Arbitration for Sport overturns the suspension, it effectively ends de Ridder's sailing career. Not only is the 41-year-old de Ridder banned from the 2017 America's Cup, but he's unable to accept a $500,000 contract to sail in the Volvo Ocean Race, which begins later this year.
Word of the suspension came less than a week after two New Zealand attorneys criticized the international jury that punished members of America's Cup champion Oracle Team USA, including de Ridder, after investigating the illegal modification of boats used in warmup regattas. . . .
. . . .Henderson said the New Zealand attorneys wrote "an excellent report. You read it and say, 'Oooh. I'm not sure due process was done."" page 2
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/18/1411:07 AM
Not having an income for 5 years and the costs involved with the lawsuits and appeals is enough to ruin someone forever, both professionally and personally. He made a mistake but the penalty is excessive, there is not even any proof that his actions had any effect on performance. I think that he (and others) took a shortcut with the boat repair, in a series which no-one was taking very seriously anyway (the last regattas some teams didn't even bother showing up).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/18/1401:17 PM
"...Given that GGYC was one of the parties to the negotiation and establishment of the Protocol, it essentially now faces a claim against the processes set out in that Protocol by one member of its own team - Oracle Team USA...." Richard Gladwell weighs in
Personally, I'm hoping that the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) rehears the entire case.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/05/1411:50 AM
Not sure what to think about the "one boat per challenger" rule, I think this is a big disadvantage to the challengers. Traditionally the first boat is always the one where new ideas get tested, whereas the 2nd one is the actual match boat. With this rule there is a risk that they will "butcher" their boats to incorporate new design ideas which could impact the structure and possibly safety. Both Oracle and Artemis destroyed their first boat so not having a 2nd one would really be an issue when anything catastrophic happens.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/05/1401:32 PM
Quote
I think this is a big disadvantage to the challengers.
I imagine this is being put in place to make sure that potential challengers on the fence who are trying to make the numbers work on their spreadsheet aren't dissuaded from showing up when they know that their competition will be able to pump out new boats like tictacs.
This quote is very true and hard for a lot of organziers to grasp.
Originally Posted by Russell Coutts
Some sports are powerful enough to dictate the terms, but we are not in that position. We have to approach it differently, and see how we can organize the competition to suit all parties. Certainly we don’t want to jeopardize the competitive aspects of the event; we never would do that. But we also want to be sensible about the conditions that affect the key sponsors and broadcasters. - See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...-silences-crickets/#sthash.xntidRM6.dpuf
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/1402:38 PM
Just read the Coutts interview. Lots of great insight there!
While I appreciate the multiple layers of things being considered, for Joe Sixpack, it's hard to beat nationalism rules and flag-waving. Sad not to see that in the discussion (I know, Coutts is not American).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/1402:57 AM
I had heard there were enough parts lost/pilfered that it couldn't have been sailed again even if someone wanted to invest the huge sum it would take to maintain and launch it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/1410:52 AM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I had heard there were enough parts lost/pilfered that it couldn't have been sailed again even if someone wanted to invest the huge sum it would take to maintain and launch it.
I also read that many of the soft sail controls were ground off when the wing went on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/1411:55 AM
No insurance company in the world (well...ok, maybe 1) would have insured it to do anything. The liability of taking people out would be huge - and who do you get to drive it and sail it? It's much better off on display than being ground to bits as part of an aeronautical company's recycling program.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/1402:13 PM
I think it's sad that they didn't get it in proper display form sooner, especially at the base in SF. They had it parked out front of the hangar, probably meant to inspire, but the cosmetic condition was completely ignored.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/1404:14 PM
"If I'm honest I'm finding it hardest now. At first I threw myself into the team, into Leah and the kids and into preserving Bart's legacy through the Foundation.
"But it's been comparatively quieter in the last few weeks and that's where the numbness has set in. It feels like a permanent hole. I have to look out at San Francisco Bay every day of my working life with Artemis. There's a particular part of the Bay I really don't like at all. It brings back horrific memories.
"I miss him most when I'm racing. I want to turn round to him all the time and seek his advice or reassurance. Of course, I can't. I know that it will affect me for the rest of my life."
"Technology overtook safety," . . . "Speed was what we all chased. Our rivalries traditionally run deep. It's the same as in Formula One. We won't give each other an inch-worth of knowledge. It's always been highly protective."
"A lot of that has now changed. Designers and engineers across the board have been sharing information and knowledge with each other in the pursuit of safety."
"We're not just talking about the design of the boats. We're also exploring how better to survive when capsizing, the upgrading of helmets and life vests and improving impact on water."
"The first reason was obvious - that it would be faster, and surprisingly given later events, foiling was also safer, noting that calculations showed that a conventional multihull of the AC72 type would be difficult in winds above 18kts, and even more so in a bear-away situation." "In another series of load diagrams, Wilkinson elaborated on the forces operating on the AC72s, particularly around the foil cases with a lift of about six tonnes, a lateral force of seven tonnes, and a staggering 22 tonnes at the pivot point of the foil and 16tonnes on the control ram at the top of the foil - all contained within the AC72 hull structure."
"A couple of moments of truth for the US team were the nosediving incidents, the first of which wrecked the wingsail and almost completely destroyed the boat. The second had less dramatic results but was a significant learning experience. One of the tools used to analyse what happened in these incidents was a multiple moving plot of the data gathered from various key readout points, which would enable the forensic team to look at how the various elements interplayed, together with similarly time stamped video. In the example shown a nosedive incident was created when the afterguard tried to adjust the foil pitch control using hydraulics, which at the critical moment has lost pressure - the readout showed that a wingsail twist adjustment was being done at the same time draining the hydraulic pressure to the point where the foil control failed to work - triggering some re-design work to avoid a re-occurrence of the issue. In fact four changes to the hydraulic system were made to avoid a re-occurrence of this situation"
"Oracle improved upwind drive through increased lower aft loading. (interestingly this significantly increased the wingsail trim sheet loads, and the subsequent hydraulic demands required the crew to grind hard to maintain power from the race start to the finish)"
Would appear ISAF is out, or am I missing something?
12. ISAF 12.1. The Regatta Director shall conclude any necessary arrangements with the International Sailing Federation for and in respect of AC35, consistent with the purpose and intent provisions of Article 2 and subject always to the prior approval of GGYC and the Challenger of Record of the terms of such arrangements. 12.2. The terms of this Protocol shall prevail over the terms of any arrangements with ISAF and, other than the Regatta Officials (if applicable), no staff and/or appointed representatives of ACEA shall be subject to any present or future rules, regulations or other jurisdiction of ISAF and/or its Member National Authorities for or in respect of the whole or any part of AC35.
I'm glad they are foiling again. I think that is what made the last cup such a spectacle and brought in so many people that normally wouldn't give two ****s about sailing
Holy wow...he came out with teeth. I guess after seeing what the Dalton rule got them last time (came back to bite Oracle) they decided to fight fire with fire and just go after them in the media in the same way Dalton uses the outlets. It's probably not a bad strategy...the public back and forth creates interest and intrigue and develops the characters for the story to play out (which is something Nascar in the US has really failed to grasp). I'm sure that struck a solid note with both Dalton and the New Zealand crowd and probably will unify them by touching on the emotional loss they suffered. Not to mention the New Zealand vs. Australia stress point.
Jimmy struck me as extremely prepared and practiced for that type of interview. This is going to be an interesting lead up to the racing!
They talked about some sort of promotional video featuring Spithill...I'll have to look around for that but would love to see a link if anyone has it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1412:28 PM
Quote
Pete Melvin, a designer with Emirates Team New Zealand in the last America’s Cup, and his firm Morrelli and Melvin, were commissioned by ORACLE TEAM USA (the Defender) and Team Australia (the Challenger of Record) to oversee the writing of the AC62 class rule.
I wonder if Oracle will retain M&M this time around or let them slip to New Zealand again (after paying them to write the boat rule!). That seemed like an odd risk for Oracle to take last time - and I think it almost cost them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1412:32 PM
I'm surprised they are going to stick with the hard wing sail concept if they wanted to keep costs down.
If I recall, after the last go-round, they said the major expense was the 100+ person shore team required to mount/dismount the wing?
Building boats only 10 feet shorter, but still requiring a huge shore team to launch/retrieve the wing every day is not going to be much cheaper than the 72's.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1412:35 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I'm surprised they are going to stick with the hard wing sail concept if they wanted to keep costs down.
If I recall, after the last go-round, they said the major expense was the 150 person shore team required to mount/dismount the wing?
Building boats only 10 feet shorter, but still requiring a huge shore team to launch/retrieve the wing every day is not going to be much cheaper than the 72's.
The wing is smaller, so, yeah, it saves a little. The whole money thing has always been a ruse, though. The "cost reduction measures" may make it easier to put a boat on the water in the event, but it's still going to take a fortune to put a winning campaign together. The winner is going to spend whatever it takes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1407:12 PM
Well they complained there were only a few (4) teams who could even afford to show up with a 72. I think the number I heard, for Larry to win it, was about $200 Million. So now they will go cheap, to get more teams. This time, with the new 62 it will -only- cost....
$180 Million...each.
If they weren't going to make a major cost saving move, they should have left it as is, at least they already had 4 AC 72's built.
OR... if they were serious about saving money and attracting more teams, leave it at 45'.
I predict when the next AC 62 challenger series come around, there will still only be 4 teams who show up, if that, who can afford to build a competitive foiling hard wing 62. The new rule changed nothing in the cost required to compete. So it was all nonsense.
1. ETNZ 2. Australia 3. Artimis 4. Prada?
Sure there will be many more AC45 teams, but let's see how many build a 62 and show up at the Challenger finals.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1407:54 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well they complained there were only a few (4) teams who could even afford to show up with a 72. I think the number I heard, for Larry to win it, was about $200 Million. So now they will go cheap, to get more teams. This time, with the new 62 it will -only- cost....
$180 Million...each.
If they weren't going to make a major cost saving move, they should have left it as is, at least they already had 4 AC 72's built.
OR... if they were serious about saving money and attracting more teams, leave it at 45'.
I predict when the next AC 62 challenger series come around, there will still only be 4 teams who show up, if that, who can afford to build a competitive foiling hard wing 62. The new rule changed nothing in the cost required to compete. So it was all nonsense.
1. ETNZ 2. Australia 3. Artimis 4. Prada?
Sure there will be many more AC45 teams, but let's see how many build a 62 and show up at the Challenger finals.
I don't know if I totally agree...the wing will be one design now - so you save all the costs related to molds, forms, engineers, and computer time for that one which is a very different thing for someone to come in cold on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/1411:50 PM
All I know is what I read about it, after the cup, when someone from Oracle was being interviewed. He said, the ground crew for the solid wing was a huge expense, and they could have gone nearly as fast, for half the cost, with soft sails. That was why I was surprised they chose a boat that's nearly as big, and with the wings too. I don't see much of a cost savings there. I hope they decided to come up with a better way to control the foil's angle of attack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1401:07 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
All I know is what I read about it, after the cup, when someone from Oracle was being interviewed. He said, the ground crew for the solid wing was a huge expense, and they could have gone nearly as fast, for half the cost, with soft sails. That was why I was surprised they chose a boat that's nearly as big, and with the wings too. I don't see much of a cost savings there. I hope they decided to come up with a better way to control the foil's angle of attack.
I also saw an article that said that they'd go through a $40,0000 jib after 4 hours of sailing time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1402:08 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
All I know is what I read about it, after the cup, when someone from Oracle was being interviewed. He said, the ground crew for the solid wing was a huge expense, and they could have gone nearly as fast, for half the cost, with soft sails. That was why I was surprised they chose a boat that's nearly as big, and with the wings too. I don't see much of a cost savings there. I hope they decided to come up with a better way to control the foil's angle of attack.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1402:57 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
All I know is what I read about it, after the cup, when someone from Oracle was being interviewed. He said, the ground crew for the solid wing was a huge expense, and they could have gone nearly as fast, for half the cost, with soft sails. That was why I was surprised they chose a boat that's nearly as big, and with the wings too. I don't see much of a cost savings there. I hope they decided to come up with a better way to control the foil's angle of attack.
That comment was from Gino Morrelli.
And if anyone would know what it costs to use wings, vs. soft sails, it would be Gino.
Yes, I realize he was under contract for ETNZ when he said it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1410:09 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well they complained there were only a few (4) teams who could even afford to show up with a 72. I think the number I heard, for Larry to win it, was about $200 Million. So now they will go cheap, to get more teams. This time, with the new 62 it will -only- cost....
$180 Million...each.
If they weren't going to make a major cost saving move, they should have left it as is, at least they already had 4 AC 72's built.
OR... if they were serious about saving money and attracting more teams, leave it at 45'.
I predict when the next AC 62 challenger series come around, there will still only be 4 teams who show up, if that, who can afford to build a competitive foiling hard wing 62. The new rule changed nothing in the cost required to compete. So it was all nonsense.
1. ETNZ 2. Australia 3. Artimis 4. Prada?
Sure there will be many more AC45 teams, but let's see how many build a 62 and show up at the Challenger finals.
I don't know if I totally agree...the wing will be one design now - so you save all the costs related to molds, forms, engineers, and computer time for that one which is a very different thing for someone to come in cold on.
This article implies that the wing is only an aerodynamic one design. It sounds like everything under the skin of the wing could be different from team to team. Does that really save anyone much?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1411:51 AM
They will still have to take the wing off every night, store it indoors (find a huge hanger) and then put it back up every morning.
With a huge wing like the 72 had, (and I'm guessing the 62 wing won't be much smaller) it took a hundred guys four hours to launch each boat.
Where's the cost savings by going to the 62? 10 feet of hull? OK, a little less carbon there, but in the big scheme of things, they are still going to need the most expensive part, the shore crew, to raise and lower the wings daily, and they are going to need to find (or pay to build) storage facilities for the wings.
OK...so how much faster is using the wing, than using a soft sail, which would eliminate the need (and cost) for all of the above?
Is it 10% faster?
20%?
If the boat will go 40 knots with the solid wing, will it only go 32 knots (20% slower) with a soft sail?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1402:35 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
The short crew is miniscule in costs..... In the big scheme.
Really? You ever try to pay, feed and house 100 guys for a couple months? Then there's the heavy equipment and storage space needed for the wings.
I'll defer to Gino Morelli's earlier statement, that the easiest way to get the costs to come down significantly would be to go with soft sails. Only question I have is, how much slower would the boats be, and is that even an issue, if they can get them over 40 knots with soft sails, and they are all going about the same speed, does it matter if they are all going 45 instead of 40? It's a relative thing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1402:53 PM
If a jib is $40k, how much would a main cost? $200k? Those sails would really add up. Then, would the teams even leave them with the mast stepped outside anyways? I'm guessing not. I don't know what kinda maintenance costs there are with the wings, but I'm guessing their additional costs are not that great by the end of a campaign.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1404:52 PM
AC is the pinnacle of sailboat racing. The wing is the pinnacle of tech for sailing. All the design work has involved a wing and a complete structural redesign would be needed for soft sails because things like sheet loads change dramatically. The old wings were 13 stories high, and they are saying the new smaller wing will allow a smaller crew to step the wing. They seem to be implying that the new wing won't be as proportionally tall, making the boat not so overpowered. They were starting to de-power in winds above 12knts on the 72s. Would be nice if they could stay out sailing in solid 25knts. wind speed. The wings are still efficient in the stronger winds and the manageable sheet loads mean sheeting in and out can be done quickly. Cranking a giant soft main back in after easing in a gust while trying to foil upwind would be a huge problem to solve. Also, there seem to be 6 potential teams going for those 4 spots if you add in the French and English to the list.. There is either going to be a lag time after the 45 racing when the top 4 build their boats, or some one may build a 62, but fail to qualify.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/1410:00 PM
I recall reading some astronomical numbers for the masts and sails used while developing Dogzilla. I don't think I'd bank on them saving tons of money over the wings. With the sizes involved, rigging them was no trivial feat, to say nothing of managing them under sail (as mentioned above).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/08/1404:23 AM
I know if I were Larry, and I wanted to keep the cup, I'd make it just as expensive as last time, to eliminate as much competition as possible. One of the ways you make it expensive is....
New Rules, New Boats, Wing Sails!
All the while, the only bad rap on the last cup was, it was too expensive, and nobody showed up (competitor wise) for the Challenger Finals. This new rule doesn't seem to fix that problem. If fact, it makes the previously built AC 72's and their wings obsolete, so the teams that already had a boat, now have to spend just as much money as last time, designing and building new boats/wings, nearly as big so there's not much cost savings there.
If you're Larry, and you want to keep the cup out of reach, it's a brilliant move. Your PR say, "Hey, we made it more affordable so more teams can compete." but in reality, you've put it further out of reach for anyone but the bazzillionairs.
If he really wanted to make it more competitive, he'd do it on the 45's, that's where the really close competition is, but then he might lose the cup too.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/09/1407:41 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
the only bad rap on the last cup was, it was too expensive, and nobody showed up (competitor wise)
Are you talking about the last AC or all of the ones prior to that?
I think that the 12 meter rule was about the only time the AC was deemed "affordable" and that was using a very liberal definition of the term...
My limited recollection of the history of the Cup demonstrates a lot of the cutting edge of design and materials (which couldn't have been cheap at the time)... Marconi rig, winged keels, composite construction, laminated sails, etc.
why is this current iteration supposed to be different?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/10/1412:13 AM
The problem is, self-professed "Cup Affictionados" have selective memories. They see the 12-meters as the glory days. If you go back far enough, a case could be made that it was always about more money and fewer teams competing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1408:07 AM
San Francisco officially out of America's Cup running
San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee got an unwelcome letter late Tuesday night: As rumored, the city was ruled out of hosting the 2017 America's Cup sailing races.
Russell Coutts, director of the America's Cup Event Authority, e-mailed the mayor confirming news reports that San Francisco hadn't made the short list to host the 35th sailing regatta. San Diego, Chicago and Bermuda are still in the running.
"Given the tight timeline and demands from prospective teams to confirm the final venue, it has been necessary to continue reducing the shortlist of candidate cities," Coutts wrote. "We have therefore taken the difficult decision to no longer consider San Francisco as a possible candidate to host AC35." http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/San-Francisco-officially-out-of-America-s-Cup-5545195.php
"“There was a similar rule in the last Cup but this time there was some confusion that it might restrict guys from sailing in the Olympics, for example,” Spithill said. “That was never the intent and although we don’t think the original rule did that, we’ve worked on the language to make it perfectly clear that this applies to America’s Cup teams – not individual sailors – competing in events in conflict with the Cup.”
The changes to the Protocol take effect immediately, ahead of the entry period, which is open from June 9 through August 8, 2014."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1404:05 PM
I don't think so, SF seemed pretty upset about losing that $11m. Although you would think that amount was easily offset by both tourist and team spendings.
From what I understand Bermuda is offering some very interesting tax breaks for the teams, which could be substantial considering wages are the biggest expense of the teams.
Chicago is also still on the list but don't really know a lot about the sailing there, is it any good?
Good stuff in these interviews. Jimmy doesn't let up on Dalton. Definitely worth your time.
"Oracle Team USA skipper Jimmy Spithill has launched an incredible attack on Grant Dalton, questioning whether he should still be running Team New Zealand.
Dalton's criticised the protocols for the next America's Cup and in particular the fact a $US2 million entry fee is required before the venue is confirmed.
Spithill has told Newstalk ZB Dalton is continually negative about the event and it might be time for someone else to take over.
"Well he's been in the role for over a decade now and certainly I think when you look into anything, whether it's business or when you look into sporting teams, I think the most important thing you judge a team on are results."
Spithill has named Brad Butterworth, Murray Jones, Simon Daubney, Mike Drummond, Warwick Fleury, all former America's Cup winners, as candidates to replace Dalton."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1404:36 PM
There is only one race track in San fran.....It becomes difficult to schedule enough action on the water and accommodate all of the teams ... eg... challengers get exclusive use of the water etc. This is not a simple problem of money... there are a lot of factors... (San fran waterfront space for instance) What I would like to know is how many spectators sat and watched the race on the water waiting for the boats to zoom bye... versus sitting in the amphitheater and watching the production real time on big screens versus those who watched it on TV far far away.
I suspect that they get the exact same TV show anyplace in the world they have reliable breeze.... now the shore side scene is up for debate... Bermuda counts on the cruise ship industry for hotel rooms... How many tourists would come for the ampithetre experience? Could Berumda pull off a better event then San Fran... It is an island that depends on the tourists.... this would be a real shot in the arm.. Interesting organizational problems...
Back back in the day... Bermuda had a large Tornado fleet housed at the old RAF Naval base... This would be a big return to high performance sailing.... (not counting those Bermuda skiff things!)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1405:29 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Think we would see some 45 action in SF?
Bermuda sounds interesting, but do they have the port and infrastructure for all of this?
What does that $3million entry cover? Does that get you through the ac45 series?
Chicago is otherwise known as "the windy city". Every time I've been there, it's been cranking (although, I'm usually unfortunate enough to be there during the winter).
Bermuda can likely support it - and they're really amped up about it. I have some clients there and apparently the government is really putting everything they can into trying to secure the bid. They also have a time zone advantage at GMT -3....afternoon races can be reasonably watched live in both throughout the US and Europe (although New Zealand/Australia would need to get up pretty early in the morning to see a live match). Bermuda probably wouldn't get as much tourist action as somewhere
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1405:44 PM
I just don't like it. Alinghi pulled this nonsense in Valencia (hosting away from home) because they had to (no ocean access at home), and that was bad enough. This money-chasing exercise in SF is just an embarrassment for all sides. There's a lot of smart people involved, they should have made it work.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1406:57 PM
SF Bay was the perfect venue for foiling, as well as shore side viewing, no doubt.
There aren't too many locations on the globe that can offer that kind of predictable wind and water front viewing with enough motels and dock facilities to host a big event like that. San Diego has the space, but not the wind.
Chicago...might only blow more than 10 one day out of 5 in the summer, and Bermuda is just too small, overpriced and too far away for anyone (spectators) to show up.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/1409:27 PM
I'm sure the final decision boiled down to GREED from SF city officials. They (SF) demanded union wages, but uncle Larry and Russell said no go. The city knew they had the perfect infrastructure for the cup. They (SF) leveraged that to their advantage. They gambled, they doubled down, and didn't flinch. Larry and Russell closed the briefcase and walked. San Francisco lost. So now the unions will continue to provide city officials with their resort homes and BMW's, business as usual.
The numbers that SF claims they lost are a red herring. The economic reports generated in December 2013 reported an positive impact of $550 million for SF and 3,800 jobs. The December reports agreed that there were over 1,000,000 spectators who attended the racing live in SF. How much do you think each spectator spent during his/her visit? How much do you think the bay area collected in retail sales taxes, lodging taxes, airport taxes, rental car taxes, alcohol taxes, etc.?
Name a sporting event that draws a million fans that actually attend the event. Super Bowl? World Cup? How 'bout this shocker . . . sailing. Who woulda thought . . .
Dalton seem very happy with how things a shaping up for his team, anyone alse think that Jimmy's and Russell's recent media "attack" on ETNZ was a setup with Dalton? It got quite a bit of coverage so maybe it worked.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/13/1412:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
America's Cup: Dalton reports good progress with sponsors + Full Video
Dalton seem very happy with how things a shaping up for his team, anyone alse think that Jimmy's and Russell's recent media "attack" on ETNZ was a setup with Dalton? It got quite a bit of coverage so maybe it worked.
It was a ruthless attack but I thought it was a brilliant move. Fight fire with fire and start to undermine Dalton a little so he doesn't feel so privileged. With the close loss and the huge opposing comeback, it would be easy for a fan base to begin to question their leadership. Oracle stoking the flames of that discontent should get TNZ more focused on building a team and less focused on publicly attacking Oracle and the event.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/13/1401:35 PM
Jake, I believe you're correct about "windy city". From my limited time there, it refers to the frequent and brutal winter storms and lake-effect snow that hammers the place.
Not so sure about the summer conditions, but they do have quick changing weather being as north as it is..
Except that Russel Couts already said they want to run the races in June, to finish around July 4, and per your graph above, that's the very lightest winds in Chicago.
It's pretty good in January though. Maybe they should do it on 62' Iceboats going over 100 knots! :^)
"'To me it is bizzare. He (Spithill) has an unhealthy obsession with Team New Zealand, how it is managed, how it is funded and what its strategies are,' said Shoebridge. He went on to accuse Spithill of trash-talking the NZ team, and suggesting that Spithill's replacement management team for Team NZ, were all close to Oracle Team USA, all of them had gone with Russell Coutts to sail for Alinghi in 2003, beating a talent-stripped Team NZ and taking the America's Cup to Switzerland. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/14/1410:00 PM
Quote
The numbers that SF claims they lost are a red herring. The economic reports generated in December 2013 reported an positive impact of $550 million for SF and 3,800 jobs. The December reports agreed that there were over 1,000,000 spectators who attended the racing live in SF. How much do you think each spectator spent during his/her visit? How much do you think the bay area collected in retail sales taxes, lodging taxes, airport taxes, rental car taxes, alcohol taxes, etc.?
I know that I spent several thousand dollars in restaurants, cab rides, more restaurants, etc while we were there for a week.
I wasn't alone. The kiwis seemed to be living it up over there :P
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/17/1412:38 AM
What a bunch of whankers... You're either in the America's Cup, or you're not. Where it is, how expensive or hard it is, etc. is a bunch of crap. Man up, of be a spectator...
"While the hard words were being said, and motives were being questioned, Most media missed the fact that Oracle lost another three of their First XI America's Cup winning crew.
A total of five who sailed USA-17 to victory, in September, have gone to other America's Cup teams. Those who remain are the Australians, Kiwi Joe Spooner and the sole US national, Rome Kirby.
Oracle suffered a further major loss in Dirk Kramers, a top designer, whose Cup experience extends back to 1977 and is a three-time winner of the America's Cup. He has joined the British challenger, Ben Ainslie Racing. Oracle's three-time Cup winner Jono Macbeth (NZL) goes with him as BAR's Sailing Team Manager.
Three of the Oracle sailing crew went to Italian Challenger, Luna Rossa, who are now geared up with over 80 in the team, and look to be in full operation.
Another leading US sailor - twice and current World Foiling Moth Champion Bora Gulari (Michigan) has also signed for Luna Rossa."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/17/1404:13 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Man how Oracle didn't snag up Bora I'll never know.
I have to believe that foiling a moth and being part of a foiling team on an AC62 are probably pretty different things.... I hope he doesn't take their boats apart like he did my A-cat when I loaned it to him! ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/1404:38 PM
Team NZ have the funds 'he (Dalton is a master at raising the money. The sponsors all know him very well; he has got private guys that help. I think that if Grant went, we're dead.'
"Tindall also revealed that Team New Zealand had conducted a full internal review of its performance in the 34th America's Cup and why the team was not able to win the trophy for the third time. He would not disclose details of the review, but added that he expected it to be released in a public version in the next couple of months."
'It's not about me. I just thought that I could help,' says Butterworth. 'That’s what I've said for the new board, that I have made myself available if they want to talk to me or if they wanted to consider changing people at the top of the tree.'
By the top of the tree, Butterworth means Dalton and the rest of the senior management. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/25/1411:49 AM
I would say the personal level media bashing Spitty performed several weeks ago worked like a champ. Everybody seems outwardly positive and moving forward.
For lack of a better descriptor, Dalton kinda got put in his place. He had to fend off a challenge from Butterball to lead the team and a media tide that was quickly turning on him. His salary of $2M last year also got published and there was some public outcry from that as well (particularly the taxpayers who's taxes created the government support)...so, yeah.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/1404:46 AM
As you imply, looks like they released the 45 rule on the third and regular 45s are called for. Too bad they didn't wait an extra year and do foils. 2 years of racing on 45s seems a bit much. Maybe they want to show new guys pitch poling again, and the foils would have fixed that problem. The strong wind races in Naples and Portsmouth were entertaining.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1401:43 PM
If it gets more women into the sport, more power to him.I suspect, however, that this may have the opposite effect, drawing a certain segment of the male population into sailing.
At those Moth speeds, his shwanger is probably making that motorboat sound
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1401:48 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
If it gets more women into the sport, more power to him.I suspect, however, that this may have the opposite effect, drawing a certain segment of the male population into sailing.
At those Moth speeds, his shwanger is probably making that motorboat sound
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1402:37 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
If it gets more women into the sport, more power to him.I suspect, however, that this may have the opposite effect, drawing a certain segment of the male population into sailing.
At those Moth speeds, his shwanger is probably making that motorboat sound
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1401:09 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
If it gets more women into the sport, more power to him.I suspect, however, that this may have the opposite effect, drawing a certain segment of the male population into sailing.
At those Moth speeds, his shwanger is probably making that motorboat sound
That's in San Francisco, where the water is cold and the shrinkage is significant. I'm betting there's a lump in his throat that he used to pee with.
'We are not waiting until the entries close. We’ll be having a meeting very shortly. It will be face to face, and they have to attend in person,' Murray replied.
'I’m not at liberty to say where it will take place, but it is going to happen very shortly.'
'The meeting was instigated by HIYC’s Michael Jones after many discussions with teams. There are a lot of things that need discussion.'
"They include a delicate area for Ainslie as they replace what has been an international jury with a three-strong Arbitration Panel made up by the Court of Arbitration for Sport to settle disputes. It is not known what role would be played by the International Sailing Federation, the world governing body of which Ainslie’s brother-in-law, Jerome Pels, is Secretary General. The Italian president, Carlo Croce, is understood to be determined to see its control continue."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/1411:55 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
Philip, we love you, man, but stop the madness...
Mike
Ignore brucat. Please continue.
...wait...if brucat was referring to the SI photoshoot, then definitely listen to brucat. Seeing JS's buttocks once is way more than enough. If brucat was referring to this thread in general, then ignore him and continue.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/18/1411:25 PM
SA is reporting that Team Australia is dropping out of the Acup. They are the challenger of record which would make the protocol invalid. Something about having no dates or venue set makes it impossible to prepare for.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/18/1411:52 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I find it oddly convenient that the NZ Herald is announcing their departure over complaints that ETNZ have been squawking about for some time.
It was an article that basically says "rumor has it...". I'm not investing too much belief in this just yet. Besides that, the Australian team is led by a rich cat so they're not as dependent on sponsorship so it doesn't completely make sense.
Wow. That throws a real wrench into things. I don't see how they can repeat the last iteration and pick a new challenger again and end up with more than four teams, again.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/1408:32 PM
Isn't there some rule about the CoR defaulting to the next in line (in order of when they challenged/registered)? If so, does anyone know the official order of challengers?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/1408:35 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Isn't there some rule about the CoR defaulting to the next in line (in order of when they challenged/registered)? If so, does anyone know the official order of challengers?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1407:53 PM
Ok, so I read this at Yachting World. They start to discuss how the next challenger of record is up in the air. Two teams have officially met the entry requirement under the existing protocol and Luna Rossa was the first of those teams. However, they discuss how the issue is that, under the current protocol, there isn't technically an event unless they have three official additional challengers and that Luna Rossa couldn't fulfill this roll unless another team anted up.
I'm not sure this is technically correct, however. The event is ultimately ruled by the Deed of Gift (DoG) and it specifies what needs to be done in order for someone to become the Challenger of Record (CoR). I would imagine that if the initial CoR drops out, anything negotiated between the Defender and the initial CoR would essentially be rubbish and whoever the next person to have lodged an official challenge would be next irrespective of the previously agreed to protocol. I haven't read the DoG in a while, but I'm quite sure it stipulates that the challenges are valid in the order they are received by the Defender.
Assuming that someone has already done that, it is then up to the Defender and the new CoR whether or not to use the existing protocol would be put back in place...so it shouldn't matter who the list of challengers are that meet the provisions in the protocol that was hammered out with Australia. It only matters who was the second team to officially challenge by the terms laid out in the DoG...and those don't require any down payment.
I would be surprised if other teams didn't officially challenge immediately after the finish of the last event "just in case"....or, maybe not? I imagine we would have heard them proclaim something if that were the case.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1408:45 PM
Further to that, I did read at Sailing Scuttlebutt (sorry, no link) that the current protocol has a provision that if the CoR was eliminated, the next challenger would become CoR. So...I guess it's down to the fine print if "quit" qualifies as "eliminated".
That article also alluded that Sir Russel wanted Artemis to be the CoR but that Ellison chose Australia (not that that every officially happens since the Defender doesn't officially "choose" a challenger...but some VIP regularly just happens to be on the observation boat with the new Defender the second their boat wins the event to become the CoR).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1409:19 PM
That basically sums it up, I think. But seeing as how Mascalzone Latino was the CoR last time and bailed, I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't have a plan ready for at least one such oopsie this time.
The CoR is never left to chance (as mentioned above). Makes no sense to take that risk with the backup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1402:35 AM
From Latitude 38
35th America's Cup In Full Tumult
July 21, 2014 – Hamilton Island, Los Angeles & Auckland
Last week wasn't a tranquil one for the 35th America's Cup — assuming there will be such a thing as scheduled in 2017.
It started the weekend before last, when the Hamilton Island YC of Australia, the Challenger of Record, called a summit of all the interested potential syndicates. Representatives of Italy, New Zealand, Australia, France and Sweden attended. Not wanting to be left out, representatives from the Oracle team asked to be invited, and were permitted to attend. The current America's Cup state of affairs was discussed and grievances aired.
We're told the challengers expressed their views on the list of venues having been whittled down to Bermuda and San Diego by doing a group karaoke version of Tony Bennett's 'I Left My Heart in San Francisco'. Just as there famously is "no second" in the America's Cup, there apparently is no second to San Francisco when it comes to America's Cup venues. Several syndicates went so far as to say they couldn't give two hoots about pink sand beaches, if Bermuda was selected as the site of the Finals, they wouldn't be participating. "At least it's in California," seemed the highest praise that could be generated for San Diego, famous for light-air sailing.
That's not all the challengers groused about. There is also the fact that the deadline for entries is just three weeks away, while it will be months before the venue for the Finals is announced. Were the challengers whining or could it really be difficult to attract multimillion-dollar sponsors if nobody knows where the Finals will be held? We suspect the challengers might have a point.
But the big bomb landed on Saturday, when Bob Oatley, the wine tycoon who owns the Hamilton YC and was putting up the dough for the Team Australia Challenge, dropped out. "The challenge was initiated with a view to negotiating a format for the 35th America's Cup that was affordable and put the emphasis back on sailing skills," he said. "Ultimately our estimate of the costs of competing were well beyond our initial expectation and our ability to make the formula of our investment and other commercial support add up. We are bitterly disappointed that this emerging team of fine young Australian sailors will not be able to compete at the next America's Cup under our banner."
Ben Ainslie reacted by saying this isn't the first time a Challenger of Record had dropped out of an America's Cup, nothing to see here, move along folks. Ben is hardly an unbiased observer. After all, he was navigator for Oracle Team USA during their stirring comeback in the last Cup, so he can be seen as all but a member of their camp. Even more importantly, he'd recently announced that he'd formed his own British America's Cup team, one that will be getting considerable sponsorship from the government. While heading an America's Cup campaign isn't always the path to riches and high society, it often has been. Have you seen the photo of Sir Ben and Duchess of Cambridge Kate Middleton? We hope Prince William hasn't. If the 35th America's Cup flounders, Sir Ben could be a big loser.
What was even more shocking was the discord that started erupting in New Zealand. It started when Emirates Team New Zealand syndicate head Grant Dalton told the Kiwi government that although the Kiwi team's long-term financial situation was in excellent shape, they needed $5 million from the government by the end of the month to keep the team from going bankrupt. Dalton's 'poor us' claim rang as hollow as those of $250,000-per-speech Hillary 'Dead Broke' Clinton, as it was revealed Dalton has been making $2 million a year as the Kiwi syndicate head. While two mil might be what Ellison leaves as a tip when doing a late-night Taco Bell drive-through in one of his Honda NSXs, it's a lot of money in New Zealand.
While the salaries of other team members couldn't be released because of "competitive reasons" — ha, ha, ha — it was intimated that the second biggest earner on the Kiwi team, and second by a long way, was helmsman Dean Barker at a pitiful $250,000/year. Before any of you swooning gals decide to send 'Dean the Dream' any lunch money, it was also reported that both he and Dalton are rumored to be worth about $14 million. Once again, that's not chump change in New Zealand the way it is in the United States. As if to highlight how lucrative the Cup has been for him, Dalton recently took delivery of a $100,000 racing motorcycle. Previously he'd stuck to racing Camaros and other muscle cars for relaxation.
Surveys of both government representatives and the public showed that support for the Kiwi team has been faltering. Indeed, 80% of those surveyed basically said the government shouldn't put any more money into an America's Cup effort when the head honcho is getting two million a year out of it.
It seemed to be dirty-laundry week in the Land of the Long White Cloud, as Rob Waddell, "Team New Zealand's best grinder," revealed that there had been discord in the team during the last Cup Final as well. This, Waddell said, was a result of Dalton, 56, insisting that he be a grinder in nine of the first 10 races. Barker, as well as Waddell, apparently tried to discourage Dalton and wanted to have a younger and stronger grinder on the boat. It was alleged that Dalton's vanity had been the problem, as his onboard participation had supposedly been driven by Russell Coutts' taunt that Dalton was too old to crew.
What now? In a Latitude exclusive, we can report that Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts managed to convene a secret late-Sunday night meeting with San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee and members of the Board of Supervisors to plead, hat in hands, to let the Cup come back to San Francisco. "I'll pick up the tab for everything," said the fifth richest man in the world.
Some great points. Going back to my post above, it's shocking to me that LR was allowed to be in this position, particularly after everything that went down in the last event.
I'd be stunned if Oracle changes the protocol much through negotiations alone...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1411:49 AM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I don't think the order of entering as a challenger is relevant, its about the order of the payment received (that's what happened last time anyway).
All that depends on whether or not the protocol is still alive. There are two documents governing this event at the moment. The DoG that basically says that as long as the defender and challenger are in agreement, anything goes. It also has specifics about what constitutes a valid challenge and how they are ordered/accepted. Then there is the protocol most recently agreed to by the defender and Australia under which two teams have signed up (Luna Rossa and I forget who else). If that protocol remains valid, then it is still the master document defining the event. If, for some reason, that protocol becomes invalid, then we're back to the deed of gift.
As I understand it, there is a minimum number of challengers needed by a certain date in order for the current protocol to survive (I think they need two or three more paid up in the next couple of months). This is defined in the current protocol that Australia and Oracle negotiated. IF that happens, the protocol is still in place and the next challenger was the next guy that has already officially entered and been accepted under this protocol. If that doesn't happen, the protocol evaporates and we're back to the basics of the DoG and then the question becomes did someone else submit an official DoG challenge after Australia?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1411:55 AM
Oracle wants this to be a commercial and sustainable event. It seems to me that Ellison wants this to be somewhat of his legacy - I don't think it's working out the way he wants it to and I bet they're taking a long hard look at what it's going to take to get more teams involved. They also don't want to lose either...so there's that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1411:07 PM
IF they would make it truly more affordable, like do it in full foiling AC45's, they'd have plenty of entries and plenty of exciting racing, which might garner better mainstream TV coverage.
BUT...that also would increase the competition and thus the chances of losing the Cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1403:12 PM
Do you guys get the daily Scuttlebutt email/sailing news? Today's has a pretty good article about the AC and lack of commercial viability. I disagree with his view that they should go back to using mono-hulls. I can't even count how many of my non-sailing friends were (finally) watching the last cup, due in large part to the amazing speeds the flying cats were showing. If it goes back to mono-slugs, I doubt I'll even watch it.
From Scuttlebutt:
The 2007 America’s Cup in Valencia, Spain delivered the most commercially viable event in the history of the Cup:
- 60M euro profit distributed to the teams yes, a profit! - 11 Challengers - 9 Countries
This was not that long ago, and the 2007 numbers carried on from the 2000 and 2003 America’s Cup in New Zealand, which showed sponsors a positive upward trend in the ‘commercial’ development of the event.
Unfortunately, the wholesale changes that were instituted for the 2013 event have not shown a significant change to make the commercial ‘product’ better. The current model has, and will continue to, deliver less teams which equals less commerce.
The math is actually pretty simple: Less Teams = Less Countries = Less Broadcasters = Less Exposure = Less Sponsors Interest = Less Commercial Return.
So how do we get more teams to compete? - Lower the cost significantly - Use a platform type that is available and used by a wider group (owners, sailors, designers, builders, etc.)
While the technology and cool factor of the AC72 foiling cats was impressive, it didn’t deliver a significant boost in the audience numbers to justify 1/3 of the teams competing in the last event. And for this current cycle, it once again is showing less interest in teams competing in AC62′s.
If the goal is to create a commercially sustainable event, the math points to monohulls. If the America’s Cup announced that the event was to be held in TP52′s tomorrow, you’d have ten challenges in a heartbeat!
The current plan is too full of contradictory elements. The boat type is a hindrance to attracting challengers, yet its coolness has convinced organizers that it will attract viewers. And organizers only want four quality challengers to provide close competition, yet this limits the audience pool from which to attract viewers.
The sweeping changes so as to sell a ‘sexy’ event appear doomed. The market reality is that the America’s Cup is a tier 2/3 niche sport at best. Our current audience is small but highly wealthy, exclusive, passionate and global. We must speak to our core fan first (the “Flintstones”) before trying to attract new fans.
If the organizers become more humble in their approach, and build the ‘product’ reputation by delivering consistency, there is a chance of doing more good than harm. Currently, I worry that the later is being done.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1403:31 PM
The important part from the article:
The math is actually pretty simple: Less Teams = Less Countries = Less Broadcasters = Less Exposure = Less Sponsors Interest = Less Commercial Return.
So how do we get more teams to compete? - Lower the cost significantly - Use a platform type that is available and used by a wider group (owners, sailors, designers, builders, etc.)
While the technology and cool factor of the AC72 foiling cats was impressive, it didn’t deliver a significant boost in the audience numbers to justify 1/3 of the teams competing in the last event. And for this current cycle, it once again is showing less interest in teams competing in AC62′s
Like I said when the AC62 was announced, WRONG BOAT! Nobody can afford it. Either stick with the already operational 72's or go with the already available 45's. The 45's would be so much cheaper, and with more foiling development, would be nearly as fast (30kts's instead of 40kts's, but it's all relative, until you get down to 12knts the mono slugs would be doing).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1404:28 PM
I still think there is a happy medium in using multihulls and that it's not just monohull vs. catamaran that is causing the problem. We are on the bleeding edge of the foiling technology and it's expensive to develop. The design teams are huge and the boats are gigantic.
I think Morelli had the right idea last year. Ditch the wings but keep foiling. Go to soft sails and only give up a couple degrees of pointing ability. The costs go down quite a bit - boats can be left in the water every night, shipping costs are significantly reduced, development costs are reduced (although the exterior shape of the wing is OD, the control systems are not).
Then you look at the size of the boats. Would something less than 62 feet help? I don't know but costs do scale with size.
Every one of these items reduces the advantage that a wealthy defender has to keep winning so it may be a tough sell.
Regardless, I firmly believe that there is a happy formula under which foiling catamarans can be very successful in the AC - the answer isn't as simple as just switching to monodulls.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1404:29 PM
Timbo, Even if it went to 45' boats, do you think Oracle would spend any less money? The actual boat may cost less, but I would assume they would be dumping more money in other places.
I would like to see the 72s again, make some design packages available. Some way to share shore crews/cranes could result in savings.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1405:30 PM
See, that's the real "Problem". Larry doesn't really want MORE competition, because it increases the chances he'll lose, and then lose control of the Cup.
He wants to present the appearance of making it cheaper, and 'increasing competition' but he'll always have mo'money than anyone else, to dump into what ever HE decides to race it on.
That's also why nobody else wants in. There are not 10 Bazzillionairs in the world who want to get into a spending war with Larry. They all know he's going to tilt the money tables in his direction, so...what's the point of blowing a bunch of dough only to be outspent and out sailed, by Larry's team...again. It will never be "commercially viable" until he makes it more fair for everyone else (or 10 teams) to compete on an even field. And if they do go back to Monohulls, nobody's going to watch it...again.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1408:28 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
And if they do go back to Monohulls, nobody's going to watch it...again.
That's not true. Foiling 72's were a novelty to the non sailing public and I doubt we'll see the same interest from that demographic. Wasn't the most commerically successful cup in 2007 on monohulls? Someone had to be watching the monohulls with interest. The non sailing public is never going to have any interst in watching sailing until it is dumbed down to the point that the Kanye and Kim groopies can follow it. Throwing in a sex tape wouldn't hurt either.
I'd watch the cup series if they did it on TP52's as long as they did it somewhere with wind and waves! Fremantle comes time mind for some reason.
I do agree with you though, it's an event for the .01%er's and always has been and they couldn't give two sh!ts about a viewing audience.
Where are all the new beachcat sailors this last cup was supposed to deliver to our regattas?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1412:21 AM
If it goes back to monoslugs - I'd rather watch paint dry.
It'd be no better than watching soccer... sit there on your butt for an hour and a half to watch NOTHING happen whatsoever.
Quote
Where are all the new beachcat sailors this last cup was supposed to deliver to our regattas?
That two regattas I did with my buddy John were a direct result of the AC. He happened to be in Venice (the worst venue ever) for the 45 races there and he got hooked. Never sailed a day in his life prior to the day I took him out on the N20 where his trap wire broke and we went over.
He's got his own beater boat now on Lake Fairview that he put-puts around in.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1412:43 AM
I know I heard a lot of questions from friends during the last AC, and many guys said they had sailed when they were kids, and now they were looking at getting back into it.
I steered them all towards used Hobie 16's, as cost is always a factor if you have kids, and there are not too many Dad's out there who can spend $20K on a new toy (me included!).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1401:51 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
It'd be no better than watching soccer... sit there on your butt for an hour and a half to watch NOTHING happen whatsoever.
If that's your analogy and watching sailing has to more exciting than watching the last World Cup showcasing the brilliance that is Tim Howard then dude maybe sailing really isn't your thing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1402:07 PM
The sad part of watching Tim Howard was...the rest of his team gave him NO support! Heck, they didn't even start playing until the final 5 minutes, when that rookie from Tampa got the one goal! Where was he earlier in the series, and why did the US Coach wait so long to put him in?
Now, back to the big Cats vs. Mono for the AC debate.
I remember watching many of the 12 meter AC regattas, and later regattas when they switched to the AC boats. As soon as one boat got ahead, they pretty much stayed there for the rest of the race....slowly going nowhere at great expense.
We thought the same thing was going to happen last year, but the speed of the big cats proved they could catch up, close huge gaps and even pass, with several lead changes all in one race. It was by all accounts the most exciting AC racing in years, if not of all time.
How they could even consider going back to mono's, and watching paint dry, is beyond me, but nothing would surprise me when you get the ego's of Billionaires involved in making those decisions.
Unless they keep it foiling, I doubt it will draw the TV coverage or non-sailing audience of the last one. As to the "Commercial Viability" of it, well, they need more teams to enter and compete, as the Scuttlebutt article points out.
So how do you get more teams to enter?
You have to make it 'more fair' i.e. cheaper, i.e. smaller (foiling) cats...with soft sails, or, if a wing, figure out a better/cheaper way to raise/lower and stow it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1403:23 PM
how "affordable" were the 2007 boats in those days? I thought it was prohibitively expensive back then, too?
They pulled those boats out of the water quite often, too..
Was that the cycle where the Aussie boat sank, or the NZL boat kept breaking booms and the "hulla" debacle?
And it's not the boats that cost the most, it's the teams (crew, trainers, coaches, bartenders, etc). Are today's AC teams that much cheaper to run? Doubt it.
So, smaller boats (and teams) might make things more affordable. OD might even make it "fair" in terms of equal potential performance of the foiling cats (I'd prefer Box Rule, but then it becomes another potential arms race), but to what ultimate end? To give short-attention span couch potatoes something to look at? To sell more AC SWAG?
My opinion is that this AC cycle (and others) have had huge trickle down benefits to sailing in terms of R&D of design, materials, techniques, etc.
I mean, really, who's going to plunk down $100 M to develop a huge wingsail "just because"... or a massive 72' foiling cat.
There are lots of people pushing the envelope (Speedrocket, Hydoptere, etc), but I think the AC brought "street cred" to all of those folks by putting it downtown San Fransisco.
"the teams Luna Rossa Challenge, Artemis Racing, Ben Ainslie Racing and Team France – jointly with the yacht clubs they represent – confirm their full support to the event, regardless from the host venue that will be selected."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1405:34 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
So how do you get more teams to enter?
You've got two choices.
1) make the rules so that the challengers have a decent chance of winning the whole thing.
2) make it cheap enough that rich people want to play for the sake of playing (like most of us do on weekends on a much smaller scale)
The issue is that no singularly wealthy person would allow #1 to happen unless they wanted to otherwise be done as the Defender. The issue with #2 is that doing that would affect the singularly wealthy's person ability to keep #1 from happening.
The whole AC concept is flawed in this regard. The way the DoG was written, it was never intended to be a fleet of boats racing for the cup. It was written so the race would be one rich guy against another rich guy in a pretty cut-throat manner. Clearly, even that is incredibly flawed shown by how long the USA initially retained the cup (which is amazing that challengers continued to show up). The fleet concept and commercial concept are a bit of a round peg in a square hole in this regard - another way to inflate some egos by putting on a show.
That said, I do believe that catamarans are quickly finding wider acceptance in the larger yachting community and the AC is helping with some of that. I can attest that I've seen some shifting landscape the impressions of traditional sailors toward our cats and it's seemed to pick up pace since the last AC. It's been happening gradually over the last decade but we're not quite the "novelty show" to them that we used to be and we're being seen more often for the high performance machines that we sail instead of the yacht club riff-raff that just wants to reach back and forth. The modern F-boats are also helping with that perception.
I do hope the AC figures out how to balance the egos, commercial viability, and competitive nature of the event but I don't think they ever will in this format under these rules. So, hopefully, they can just find a way to keep it entertaining.
"the teams Luna Rossa Challenge, Artemis Racing, Ben Ainslie Racing and Team France – jointly with the yacht clubs they represent – confirm their full support to the event, regardless from the host venue that will be selected."
Ainslie and Artemis are horribly under funded and I suspect France will have the same issue and I'm confident Larry is pretty happy with that situation. The cup gets way more cred than it deserves.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1408:22 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
That said, I do believe that catamarans are quickly finding wider acceptance in the larger yachting community and the AC is helping with some of that. I can attest that I've seen some shifting landscape the impressions of traditional sailors toward our cats and it's seemed to pick up pace since the last AC. It's been happening gradually over the last decade but we're not quite the "novelty show" to them that we used to be and we're being seen more often for the high performance machines that we sail instead of the yacht club riff-raff that just wants to reach back and forth. The modern F-boats are also helping with that perception.
I'd be more inclined to believe that interest from the monohull community has come from a grass roots effort of multihull sailors integrating with their local yacht clubs and sailing centers. We no longer are the riff raff (sort of) that hang out on the beach and don't mingle with the single hull boys and girls.
If you want the monohull community to respect our game then you better respect theirs! This sentence isn't directed at you Jake I know it doesn't apply to Mr. J22!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1408:45 PM
Right On, Dave. MORC or IOR experience has not hurt either. Many of the modern catamaran aficionados are from the keelboat culture or one - design dinghy experience, and they have adopted multihulls for the same reason we have - the joy of high speed decision making and covering as much ground as possible... now 'in the air.'
Joint Statement from the Teams; Luna Rossa Challenge, Artemis Racing, Ben Ainslie Racing and Team France, who will be challenging for the 35th America’s Cup.
Following the announcement of Team Australia – representative of the Hamilton Island Yacht Club, Challenger of Record of the 35th America’s Cup – of its intention to withdraw from the competition, the teams Luna Rossa Challenge, Artemis Racing, Ben Ainslie Racing and Team France – jointly with the yacht clubs they represent – confirm their full support to the event, regardless from the host venue that will be selected.
The four teams, who have so far made clear their involvement, also reiterate their commitment to co-operate in a constructive way with the Defender to the sporting and commercial success of the 35th America’s Cup, with the aim of bringing this event to the peak of the world’s professional sport in terms of media, show, public and the intense sporting competition which has always characterised the America’s Cup.
The teams look forward to establish a constant dialogue with the Defender Oracle Team USA with the intent to fully preserve the principle of “friendly competition between foreign countries“ – one of the core elements of the Deed of Gift that rules the America’s Cup – and to co-operate actively with the Defender to adapt the rules where need be and outline the America’s Cup World Series calendar, as well as the format of the Challengers’ Selection Series and of the America’s Cup finals.
Max Sirena, skipper of Luna Rossa Challenge, declared: “All the elements for the success of the event are there: after the 34th America’s Cup it is no longer questionable how spectacular the full foiling wing-sail catamarans are ! Neither is questionable the excitement, intense competition and high-adrenaline this racing offers ! ”
Ben Ainslie, Team Principal of BAR, commented: “We are really focussed to help build a successful and sustainable America’s Cup for the future. The America’s Cup is about pushing the technical boundaries of the sport through continued innovation. The AC62 will again be incredibly exciting to watch, both on and off the water, all the ingredients you need for a great sporting event.”
Iain Percy, Team Manager of Artemis Racing, stated: “The next America’s Cup is likely to be the most competitive, exciting and sustainable ever. We cannot wait to compete.”
Franck Cammas, skipper of Team France, declared: “We believe that the format of the next America’s Cup will bring a friendly but fierce competition between the best sailors on the most spectacular machines the America’s Cup has ever seen. The 35th America’s Cup will confirm a new era for sailing, but also for the sport in general and the related technologies, with the most intense competition possible and Team France will be proud to be part of it !”
Cagliari, Portsmouth, Alameda, Paris, 25th of July 2014.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1412:37 AM
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake
That said, I do believe that catamarans are quickly finding wider acceptance in the larger yachting community and the AC is helping with some of that. I can attest that I've seen some shifting landscape the impressions of traditional sailors toward our cats and it's seemed to pick up pace since the last AC. It's been happening gradually over the last decade but we're not quite the "novelty show" to them that we used to be and we're being seen more often for the high performance machines that we sail instead of the yacht club riff-raff that just wants to reach back and forth. The modern F-boats are also helping with that perception.
I'd be more inclined to believe that interest from the monohull community has come from a grass roots effort of multihull sailors integrating with their local yacht clubs and sailing centers. We no longer are the riff raff (sort of) that hang out on the beach and don't mingle with the single hull boys and girls.
If you want the monohull community to respect our game then you better respect theirs! This sentence isn't directed at you Jake I know it doesn't apply to Mr. J22!
We are in agreement. All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt our cause to have the AC on catamarans because it does increase our profile.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1402:19 AM
This:
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
then leave it like #1 and push all the performance envelope edges.
Opting for #2 will just make it one more OD event.
NOT this:
Originally Posted by David Ingram
The cup gets way more cred than it deserves.
Maybe it's because I've lived in or near Newport for my entire life, but I don't think so. It's the oldest trophy in sport, and men have all but gone insane trying to win it.
The cup and its history are critical to our sport. I choose to embrace the quirkiness of its rules, craziness of the changes, and lunacy of the spending for the incredible spectacle that it is.
'The Breakfast TV attack on the team in the New Zealand media by Oracle Team USA, caused serious problems for the team and will not be easily forgotten. The reason for this and other similar episodes have never been explained, and the motives are questionable at best.
When asked why the team had not appeared in an America's Cup promotional video which featured comment by by four Challenger teams, Team NZ CEO, Grant Dalton retorted 'why would we want to blow smoke up Oracle's butt?'
. . .
It would also seem that a new San Francisco venue has comeback onto the America’s Cup horizon, with Alameda being reported by Stuart Alexander, as having sent their credentials to ACEA. The report was confirmed by US sources.
Alameda is governed by a different civic body, and was the base for two of the Challengers, Artemis and Luna Rossa, in the 34th America’s Cup, who were housed in an old seaplane base.
Shifting the teams across the harbour to Alameda, would still allow the teams to compete on San Francisco Bay, which has in the past been cited as the preferred venue of the Challenger group.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/1412:07 PM
I thought, at first, that perhaps it was just that NZ hasn't officially joined the event by paying an entry fee like the others and that the media was typically blowing it out of proportion. However, there was at least one other competitor at the meeting that hasn't paid any entry fee...so that's not it.
I have a feeling that something fishy is going on or that something happened that we aren't yet aware of.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/1401:32 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I thought, at first, that perhaps it was just that NZ hasn't officially joined the event by paying an entry fee like the others and that the media was typically blowing it out of proportion. However, there was at least one other competitor at the meeting that hasn't paid any entry fee...so that's not it.
I have a feeling that something fishy is going on or that something happened that we aren't yet aware of.
AFAIK The kiwis haven't officially committed to entering the event until a venue is announced.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/01/1412:52 PM
Interesting to see so many references in the BAR release about bringing the Cup "home" to GBR. I wonder if that's just a marketing slogan, or if the citizens feel that way.
Still rather shocking to me that for all of the planning and control, there's any doubt at this stage who's next in line for CoR. Stunning to me that Oracle wouldn't have tidied that up right from the start after losing M. Latino last time. Risk assessors must have said, "Nah, that could never happen again!"
"I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me. Ten weeks after my argument with the owner about the safety of the Artemis boat, the boat capsized in the San Francisco bay and one of the sailors was killed. It was a known thing that the boat was not safe. "
"I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me. Ten weeks after my argument with the owner about the safety of the Artemis boat, the boat capsized in the San Francisco bay and one of the sailors was killed. It was a known thing that the boat was not safe. "
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/1402:15 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would that totally open the door to litigation?
I doubt it...it sounds more like he's talking in generalities about the overall boat concept. If, however, he was stating that the beam repair that seems to have lead to the failure of the Artemis boat that resulted in Bart's death was not adequate, then perhaps it would. However, I'm not sure how Hutchinson would have known enough about the repair and repair science that he could had an objection that specific.
"I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me. Ten weeks after my argument with the owner about the safety of the Artemis boat, the boat capsized in the San Francisco bay and one of the sailors was killed. It was a known thing that the boat was not safe. "
Totally agree. Didn't see where he said to bring it back to a monohull format just that the boats are dangerous.
AC is about the one percenters playing puppet master, he's dead on with that statement. Once upon a time they had the stones to drive the freaking thing. Again the AC gets more cred that it deserves.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/1406:40 PM
Really? How many times did he have to say it was better with the 2007 (and older) boats/format. He also seems to have forgotten that nationalism effectively disappeared long before that when they allowed sailors to change/add passports to switch teams.
I do agree that the owners should drive the boats, although I don't know if we have easily identified owners on all boats in some of the syndicates.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/1407:09 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Really? How many times did he have to say it was better with the 2007 (and older) boats/format. He also seems to have forgotten that nationalism effectively disappeared long before that when they allowed sailors to change/add passports to switch teams. ... Mike
He also discuss how great it was to be part of several AC campaigns (all of which he was on because they didn't have strict nationality rules).
ORACLE TEAM USA (USA), the defending champion Artemis Racing (SWE) Ben Ainslie Racing (GBR) Emirates Team New Zealand (NZL) Luna Rossa Challenge (ITA) Team France (FRA)
'I had some good talks with Team New Zealand after the last Cup in December. We knew we were going to part ways at that point. The split has been very amicable. I got a note of congratulations from Shoebs (ETNZ's Kevin Shoebridge) this morning. We’re all good mates, but it is time for a change.'
'Money didn’t have anything to do with it. It is good for me to have new challenges. It is good for Team New Zealand to have a new voice, telling them a new way of looking at it. Ten years is a long time.'
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/1401:19 PM
Who wudda thought . . .
"San Diego has revealed the pressure it is under from America's Cup officials, who want 10,000 free hotel room nights in the lead-up to the 2017 event.
They also want an additional 7500 room nights at half-price. Estimates put that cost alone at US$2.75 million (NZ$3.29m) in room nights."
"Possibly the greatest comeback in sports history did not occur on the gridiron, or on the court, or anywhere near a field, but at sea. In September 2013, in the San Francisco Bay, Oracle Team USA overcame disastrously dire odds to achieve, statistically, the grandest comeback in the history of international sport. Having had three of their team members expelled for cheating in warmups, been fined $250,000, and docked a pre-final two-race deficit, Oracle had to win 11 races in order to defend the oldest international sporting trophy, while challenger Emirates Team New Zealand needed only to win nine. Having taken six of the first seven races, Emirates had a commanding lead, and a new champion was widely predicted. In Race 6, Oracle replaced American tactician John Kostecki with the most successful sailor in Olympic history, Sir Ben Ainslie of Great Britain. Teamed with Oracle Skipper, Australian yachtsman Jimmy Spithill, Ainslie improved Oracle’s approach to their upwind lengths. Race 9, which almost saw a disastrous capsize by Emirates, went to Oracle, but when the Kiwis took races 10 and 11, Emirates was within one win of claiming the Cup. At this point, despite the fact that Oracle had managed to win three races, they officially trailed Emirates 8-1, due to the pre-series two-race penalty. The following six days would see unparalleled seamanship, audacious tactics and a hardened will overcome the most overwhelming odds ever seen in the history of the America’s Cup. Spithill consistently managed to sail his vessel up on its hydrofoils for maximum speed. Having taken the next seven straight races, the 34th America’s Cup would be decided on September 25, 2013, in a winner-takes-all match. Oracle had won eight straight races to stun Emirates, the sailing community, and the sports world. Never before had a player or team overcome such odds. Emirates had the advantage early on, earning the favored leeward position out of the start line, which led to a lead around the reach mark. After Oracle dipped both their bows into the water, they were slowed down considerably. It began to look like the comeback was noble, but forlorn. After Emirates took a lead into the third leg, Oracle’s discovered upwind foiling skills took control, passing Emirates. While Oracle tried to extend their lead, another mistake would almost certainly mean disaster. They took the cup by 44 seconds, achieving what no team had done before."
"I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me. Ten weeks after my argument with the owner about the safety of the Artemis boat, the boat capsized in the San Francisco bay and one of the sailors was killed. It was a known thing that the boat was not safe. "
"On Friday, Hutchinson said on his Facebook page that the Maxim interview "included some untrue statements and inaccurate remarks I made about Artemis Racing."
"To be clear, Artemis Racing is a well-organized and responsible professional sailing team that considers safety an absolute priority," Hutchinson wrote. "My departure from the team more than five months prior to the tragedy of May 9, 2013 was on agreeable terms with the owner and my teammates. No one could have anticipated what occurred, and I meant no disrespect to the memory of Andrew "Bart" Simpson or to any current or past members of the Artemis Racing team. I deeply regret any misunderstanding that was drawn from the Maxim interview."
Hutchinson didn't immediately return a phone call and email seeking further comment on why he recanted his earlier statement."
"The six America’s Cup teams have agreed to a project that will see the existing fleet of AC45 catamarans modified into fully foiling catamarans for racing in the America’s Cup World Series (ACWS).
Importantly, the teams have also committed to continue to race the foiling AC45s on the America’s Cup World Series circuit in 2018, following the conclusion of the 35th America’s Cup in 2017."
Nothing unless Larry decides to stop writing checks. He's done this before and it won't last he can't stand letting someone else call the shots. I say these two have 2 years tops before they are kicked to the curb regardless of performance. Co CEO's... yeah that's gonna work, let the cage match commence. What a tool, just pick one Larry!
Or... he could be dying and the stock price sure is leaning that way. If that's the case the shareholders won't foot the bill and Oracle is out!
"Oracle Team USA owner Larry Ellison, one of the of the richest men in the world, apparently has gotten tired of plopping down $100 million here and $100 million there to pay the costs of not only defending the silver trophy, but staging the overall event.
Ellison has charged Coutts with coming up with a way to make the America's Cup pay for itself. It's expensive for participants and organizers alike.
Coutts took a first step by pulling the event from San Francisco, where, he said, it would cost some $38 million to stage the next regatta. The New Zealander was unhappy that San Francisco was unwilling to give cup organizers the same terms as last time, which included free use of piers and city services."
"Topping the list is Oracle Team USA's Sir Russell Coutts with alleged earnings of $13million. He is just a $1million ahead of an English Premier League player, Winston Reid, and motor racing ace, Scott Dixon."
"Topping the list is Oracle Team USA's Sir Russell Coutts with alleged earnings of $13million. He is just a $1million ahead of an English Premier League player, Winston Reid, and motor racing ace, Scott Dixon."
I thought there were a whole bunch of NBA, NFL and Baseball players making a lot more than $13M/yr. Didn't A Rod sign a deal for like $150 Million over 10 years?
"Topping the list is Oracle Team USA's Sir Russell Coutts with alleged earnings of $13million. He is just a $1million ahead of an English Premier League player, Winston Reid, and motor racing ace, Scott Dixon."
I thought there were a whole bunch of NBA, NFL and Baseball players making a lot more than $13M/yr. Didn't A Rod sign a deal for like $150 Million over 10 years?
"Topping the list is Oracle Team USA's Sir Russell Coutts with alleged earnings of $13million. He is just a $1million ahead of an English Premier League player, Winston Reid, and motor racing ace, Scott Dixon."
I thought there were a whole bunch of NBA, NFL and Baseball players making a lot more than $13M/yr. Didn't A Rod sign a deal for like $150 Million over 10 years?
"Topping the list is Oracle Team USA's Sir Russell Coutts with alleged earnings of $13million. He is just a $1million ahead of an English Premier League player, Winston Reid, and motor racing ace, Scott Dixon."
I thought there were a whole bunch of NBA, NFL and Baseball players making a lot more than $13M/yr. Didn't A Rod sign a deal for like $150 Million over 10 years?
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1401:50 AM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo
I thought there were a whole bunch of NBA, NFL and Baseball players making a lot more than $13M/yr.
And Delta pilots, too...?
I'm still making LESS than I was in 2004, when Delta filed for Bankruptcy and cut our pay by 42%, oh, and I have no retirement plan, because they took that too ($1.4 Million for me at the time).
You wonder why I can't afford a new mainsail for an F16?
THAT'S WHY!
But hey, our CEO made over $100 Million last year...so we got that going for us!
Foiling AC45s confirmed for America’s Cup World Series
The best sailors in the world will be flying above the water at speed when the America’s Cup World Series begins in the summer of 2015.
Champion sailors Ben Ainslie, Dean Barker, Franck Cammas, Nathan Outteridge, Max Sirena and Jimmy Spithill will lead their respective teams into the first stage of the competition for the most storied trophy in international sport.
Commercial Commissioner Harvey Schiller says that he also expects at least one additional team will be joining as a late entry.
The America’s Cup World Series runs for two seasons in 2015 and 2016, ahead of the America’s Cup Qualifiers, Playoffs and Finals in 2017.
Those guys are using soft sails, and still going plenty fast.
I've got to wonder how much money (and time, and ground crew, and storage space) it would save the next AC62 class if they would just switch back to soft sails too.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/01/1406:08 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I've got to wonder how much money (and time, and ground crew, and storage space) it would save the next AC62 class if they would just switch back to soft sails too.
To me that's kinda like telling the Formula 1 teams that they are going to have to use VW aircooled flat four engines from a Beetle next year. Sure it's cheaper, but really doesn't deliver like you'd want the pinnacle of a sport to do so.
I'm sure the handling of the wing has some big costs. It'd be interesting to see what the actual difference in cost would be compared to soft sails. I'm sure it'd be a huge pile of cash, but percentage wise, it probably wouldn't be that impressive of a comparison.
I was just talking to my brother earlier today about car racing. It'd be fun if there were an unlimited form of racing. Any fuel, any configuration, any weather, no rules. Not even safety rules for the equipment. That would drive some innovation!
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/02/1405:14 PM
From the after reports of the last AC, they said the ground crew just to handle the wing, step it every day, take it down every night, store it, tweak it, etc. was about 100 people...for each team! They said that was the single biggest expense other than building the boats.
I'm just wondering how much faster it makes the boats? It's got to be a lot heavier than soft sails, so you have to offset the weight of the wing vs. the added performance it brings. Where is the break over in terms of performance?
Seems the smaller foiling cats go pretty fast with soft sails!
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/02/1406:46 PM
Timbo
You get one wing... it does not wear out... you paste on replacement panels if they tear .. So with soft sails... they change shape... So you are constantly adjusting the settings to manage.. Bottom line... you have to replace the entire sail often.. All told... the net costs are about the same...(Source ACC sail maker) The new rule is not just stupid loyalty to cutting edge technology (like the wing)...
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/1403:08 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'm sure it'd be a huge pile of cash
uh, hello? are we trying to make the AC something for the broke masses? I would certainly hope not...
This uber-spending to develop the technology is a good replacement for our shelved space program.
I think we are actually witnessing some "trickle down" from all this (G-32, Phantom, C-cat, A-cat, Gunboat, etc)... perhaps moreso than the equivalent economic theory.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/1404:28 PM
Yeah, the C class cats were trying foiling and hard wing sails what, about 15 years ago?
I think the aircraft design guys at Airbus are working with one of the AC teams too.
And I thought I read that Ellison got some help from Boeing last AC, just as they 'turned the boat around' i.e. started winning, after installed something that made it possible to foil upwind?
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/1404:43 PM
I think you're right Timbo. It had something to do with the foil adjustment system that your planes are using. I believe they finally "figured" out how to use it effectively and started their domination..
And while the concepts of aero- and hydro- foils started in small boats (moths, C-cats), you can't deny how much technical talent the AC put to figuring these things out... ESPECIALLY when the rules were designed to keep boats from doing just that (foiling).
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/1406:25 PM
I vaguely recall seeing Little America's Cup boats (C-Class) with hard wings back in the 80s. I know for sure that Dennis Connor was testing wings on the Stars and Stripes cat in the late 80s, and the leaders in that game came from our very own Roton Point in CT.
I wouldn't think foiling started in cats, and I agree that the money from this past AC probably advanced that technology 10 years over what would have been done in the small boat market alone.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/1411:00 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'm sure it'd be a huge pile of cash
uh, hello? are we trying to make the AC something for the broke masses? I would certainly hope not...
Oh hells no. I say if they can throw another billion dollars on the already massive pile of burning cash and squeeze another two knots of boat speed out, then have at it. I can't even fund a new DNA, BUT, that'd be the equivalent of uncle Larry buying new shoe laces.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/04/1411:59 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
To me that's kinda like telling the Formula 1 teams that they are going to have to use VW aircooled flat four engines from a Beetle next year. Sure it's cheaper, but really doesn't deliver like you'd want the pinnacle of a sport to do so.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/05/1409:20 PM
That's why I thought SFO bay was the perfect location, very predictable strong winds all summer long, enclosed bay so the water stays fairly flat (relative to a 62 foot foiling cat) and spectator friendly.
It's too bad Larry and the SFO Politicians couldn't make it work.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/12/1404:27 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I'm sure they'll figure out a way to foil in less than 10 knots...
A great question for the magicians that pull this all together. Does the reduced boat/wing size/weight combo make that problem harder or easier to solve?
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/13/1406:22 PM
After the BS in the last ACWS, they should just have the teams rotate the boats. I suppose it helps the design teams with development for the 62s, but at some point, playing with the 45s should be left to the sailing teams, and to restore a sense of fairness to the ACWS, make it SMOD, and rotate on through.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/13/1406:30 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
After the BS in the last ACWS, they should just have the teams rotate the boats. I suppose it helps the design teams with development for the 62s, but at some point, playing with the 45s should be left to the sailing teams, and to restore a sense of fairness to the ACWS, make it SMOD, and rotate on through.
Mike
What if I went and did something to the boat I've just stepped off of? Like changed a setting?
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/14/1401:18 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
I thought they were SMOD last time?
They were...the problem was that there was a common problem with the strikers on the poles and all the teams were allowed to make repairs to it. One team decided to take their modifications too far.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/21/1408:17 PM
From Latitude 38:
The America’s Cup Event Authority has forwarded Latitude 38 an "exclusive invitation" — which they’ve no doubt given to countless others — to attend a press conference at the Crosby Hotel in Manhattan on December 2 for the announcement of the venue for the 35th America’s Cup.
Apparently it's not necessary for us to attend, though, as an unnamed source believed to be in the know has spilled the beans to the Associated Press. That source says it's going to be Bermuda, not San Diego. If true, it's not surprising, as the ACEA announced recently that Bermuda had been chosen as one of the venues for next year's foiling AC45 competition, the America's Cup World Series.
Six teams have said they are committed to the event. They are: Artemis Racing, Sweden; Ben Ainslie Racing, UK; Emirates Team New Zealand; Luna Rossa Challenge, Italy; Team France; and the defender, Oracle Team USA.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/21/1411:43 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
will it be any more difficult to draw spectators to Bermuda than it would San Diego... The spectators with money, that is...
The tax dodge is a cool angle, but can't you do that in Virgin Islands, too?
Perhaps they are focusing more on the media presence than the physical spectator presence, given how many of us watched it on the web?
I'm starting to sound like the Batman cliffhanger at the end of the weekly show...
In Bermuda, the time zones work out better for viewing live in Europe too...and, sailing might be a little more likely to get major network coverage there.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/23/1410:03 PM
Either location will have a fair amount of light to moderate wind. I wonder if they will have to re-design the foil packages to cut drag in the non-foiling conditions? The A class deals with sailing in light wind with foilers already. Perhaps some trickle up will take place. Seems like it could be any one's race. It will be tough for OR to keep the cup. Also, won't it be tricky to have a base in Bermuda with a composites workshop for developing the boat? Hefty fedex bills ahead. The good news for fans is the 45 racing in some windy venues, and the news that they will continue to race into the future after AC35.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/24/1401:30 PM
It's going to be harder than ever to get anyone to show up, or tune in, or care at all (Joe Sixpack), if they aren't hosting the finals in the HOST COUNTRY!!!
"How could Oracle and the Golden Gate Yacht Club take an event so far offshore after fighting so hard and for so long to host it? Why had they chosen a small, expensive and exclusive island where there are said to be 17 hotels and less than 2,000 beds?
If the event was hoping to attract teams with commercial backing, why had they denied those that will be supported by sponsors the opportunity to tap into the American market?
And if it is true, why has the America’s Cup ended up so far away from a potential public that had become hooked after the last event in San Francisco?"
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/25/1411:19 PM
huh. I thought Ainslie was a bit in the back pocket of Oracle. If anything is for sure, it was the fact that somebody (if not the majority of the teams) was going to bitch about whatever location was announced.
"How could Oracle and the Golden Gate Yacht Club take an event so far offshore after fighting so hard and for so long to host it? Why had they chosen a small, expensive and exclusive island where there are said to be 17 hotels and less than 2,000 beds?
If the event was hoping to attract teams with commercial backing, why had they denied those that will be supported by sponsors the opportunity to tap into the American market?
And if it is true, why has the America’s Cup ended up so far away from a potential public that had become hooked after the last event in San Francisco?"
Oh, wait...after skimming the article, those comments were not made by Ainslie...that was the author of the article asking those questions.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/25/1411:44 PM
Originally Posted by "Yachting World Magazine"
...a British overseas territory, 640 miles to the north west of Cape Hatteras in North Carolina, would be where the USA would defend the America’s Cup...
I think the author needs to look at a map.
Personally, I feel that the club holding the America's Cup should defend in its home waters. I think it's shameful that the Golden Gate Yacht Club chose to leave San Francisco Bay - and disgraceful to have even considered a location in a foreign country. I'm appalled.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/26/1401:43 PM
Wishful fantasy on my part, but I want to wake up December 3 and hear that the Defender surprises everyone naming Alameda host city, while flipping the middle finger towards SF.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/01/1402:39 PM
I think the AC is finally accepting that sailing isn't quite the spectator sport they want it to be?
But the multi-media aspect (and tax haven) COULD make it a spectator sport. Just not sure how you make money off the innernet unless you pack it with Russian Bride ads.?
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/01/1404:48 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I think the AC is finally accepting that sailing isn't quite the spectator sport they want it to be?
But the multi-media aspect (and tax haven) COULD make it a spectator sport. Just not sure how you make money off the innernet unless you pack it with Russian Bride ads.?
Jan - April has better than a 69% chance of being Beaufort 4 or stronger. May - Oct have 50-60% chance and it picks back up again a little at the end of the year.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/02/1407:07 PM
The funniest part of that video was the concert venue. Where do they think they're going to find thousands of people to attend these concerts like they could in San Fran?
"Murray says he sees his appointment to a second term as Regatta Director as an opportunity to advance the America’s Cup forward beyond what was achieved last time.
“Leading into the last America’s Cup, there were so many major changes and collectively we learned so much about how to design, build and race these foiling multihulls,” Murray said. “Now we have the chance to fine-tune and make adjustments to make it even better."
"Tom Slingsby is obviously one of the best sailors in the world. He is one of only nine men to have won an Olympic gold medal and the America's Cup and he has seven world championship golds in Laser and one in Etchells."
"I flew into Auckland not long after the Cup and I was convinced that the customs guy wasn't going to let me through," Spithill said earlier this year. I walked up to the window and I got about 20 feet away and he goes 'turn around, you're not coming in".
"ORACLE TEAM USA has a final training session scheduled in San Francisco next month before moving its operations to Bermuda
Our plan at ORACLE TEAM USA is to be sailing out on the Great Sound at the beginning of May. It’s important for us to hit that deadline, so we’re working to put a plan in place to achieve that."
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/24/1506:42 PM
The article says it's for the 2015-2016 season. The ACWS was in Italy 3 times during the last go-round. Naples held it twice. The first time, April 2012 it was quite rough. Nate O made his AC debut, T Hutch flipped on a bear away, and boats were sometimes going into irons during a tack. i thought it was entertaining video if you use the slider to speed through the filler ... http://youtu.be/8G3kN44AGZY
12:1 mainsheet on the Carbon 20? Really? Sir Ben needs to hit the gym?
heck, we're running 10:1 on the F18s. That thing has considerably more main sail area and is probably a lot more sensitive to high angle apparent winds. I would say 12:1 is probably about right.
12:1 mainsheet on the Carbon 20? Really? Sir Ben needs to hit the gym?
heck, we're running 10:1 on the F18s. That thing has considerably more main sail area and is probably a lot more sensitive to high angle apparent winds. I would say 12:1 is probably about right.
12:1 on that main! Yes more please. I too used to think 10:1 was ridiculous for an F18 then I figured out how to trim it properly, 10:1 is delightful.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/1502:46 PM
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by David Ingram
then I figured out how to trim it properly, 10:1 is delightful.
what were you doing wrong?
what are you now doing (right)?
Not sheeting nearly hard enough upwind. It's a pretty common fault. My first training session with Red Gear on my A-cat...Robbie is screaming at me with a bullhorn :
I thought my a-cat was going to split in two but once the echos of the bullhorn subsided in my head I couldn't believe the angle and speed with which I was closing in on A-mark. That price of training had just become an incredible investment.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/12/1508:38 PM
It may be more time before the 45 hits the water. The crane to launch it is not there and with the port labor dispute it can not be delivered. They have been out on the FP18's almost every day.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/13/1502:40 PM
Not sure what to make out from these photos. Looks like a heavily modified AC45, including aero package, completely different rear beam, in-hull grinding station, steering wheel (sans tiller) and other goodies.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/13/1504:02 PM
Wow...they really moved the mast base aft. It's a couple of feet behind the main beam and the "pod" structure looks more like a structural support for that modification than an aero improvement.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/16/1502:27 PM
If it was my billions, I'd think SanFran USA, Portland ENG, Sydney AUS should be in the rotation. Obviously the Bermuda location, too
Maybe something in the Trade Wind belt(s)...
They're all predictably windy for a foiler and if the courses are kept reasonably short, the mark roundings should be crowded (which makes for great TV)
"Spooner is attempting to obtain an arrest warrant for the team's development AC45, which is due to be shipped to Bermuda on March 9 for further training and development at the venue of the 35th America's Cup."
"Those moves have in turn led to cuts in the sailing crew, the most visible of which is the non-appointment of Dean Barker as skipper. In a statement issued by the team, the role of Skipper appears to have been abolished, and helming duties will be shared between wingsail trimmer, Glenn Ashby and 49er World Champion Peter Burling.
'The way it will work at this point is that Peter will sail the one design AC45 in the ACWS events. With his 49er regattas, by definition that means that he is not available somewhere else, and Glenn will drive the surrogate AC45. The original idea was that we would have two surrogates, and Dean would drive one and Glenn would drive the other. When we had to drop a surrogate, we had to make some other decisions.
'We hope and believe that Peter Burling will be able to move up to deal with the crew and the input and everything else that goes with sailing a big boat. In the meantime we are bringing Glenn along, who can already do all of that, as well.'
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/26/1508:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7G5VDJzTGI This fan caught like a mini race of the scaled down 62s on SF bay with his panasonic camera. It's fantastic to get this video from a private source. His youtube channel has good stuff. ps. what are the pros and cons of starting a new thread for ac35?
"Without cutting edge design and engineering, no one wins the America's Cup. In pursuit of their goal, the British team has developed their own sophisticated 3D sailing simulator, modelled on those used by the world of motorsport. The virtual flying machine will support the vital link between sailors and designers, creating an important feedback mechanism between the two core parts of the performance team. It also provides an equally important feedback loop within the design team's optimisation process. The man leading the team behind BAR’s (virtual) flying machine is Dr. James Roche, formerly of McLaren Applied Technologies, where he had worked on the design of the skeleton sled that Lizzy Yarnold used to slide to gold at the Sochi Winter Olympics."
"The vessel was in three containers and the US Marshals went into the Oracle Compound at Pier 80 at 9.00 am this morning and big MAC trucks were arriving to pick up containers. US Marshall Christian Hanson had called Oracle's lawyer at 8.20 am from the Federal Building in San Francisco and told him that no containers with the vessel were to leave Pier 80 otherwise Oracle would be in contempt of the court's order.
However as US Marshall Christian Hanson and his Deputy approached Pier 80 two containers were being removed by truck from Pier 80 at some speed. The truck licence numbers and the container numbers were all noted and a local contractor had taken a photo of the first truck and the numbers on the side of the shipping container."
'We are disappointed that we have lost Dean from the team and hold him in the highest regard, but he has made it clear throughout this restructure process that he saw he was best suited to a role on the water as Skipper or sailing director. Despite the media commentary in the last few weeks, all matters between us have been resolved satisfactorily'.
"The vessel was in three containers and the US Marshals went into the Oracle Compound at Pier 80 at 9.00 am this morning and big MAC trucks were arriving to pick up containers. US Marshall Christian Hanson had called Oracle's lawyer at 8.20 am from the Federal Building in San Francisco and told him that no containers with the vessel were to leave Pier 80 otherwise Oracle would be in contempt of the court's order.
However as US Marshall Christian Hanson and his Deputy approached Pier 80 two containers were being removed by truck from Pier 80 at some speed. The truck licence numbers and the container numbers were all noted and a local contractor had taken a photo of the first truck and the numbers on the side of the shipping container."
"The vessel was in three containers and the US Marshals went into the Oracle Compound at Pier 80 at 9.00 am this morning and big MAC trucks were arriving to pick up containers. US Marshall Christian Hanson had called Oracle's lawyer at 8.20 am from the Federal Building in San Francisco and told him that no containers with the vessel were to leave Pier 80 otherwise Oracle would be in contempt of the court's order.
However as US Marshall Christian Hanson and his Deputy approached Pier 80 two containers were being removed by truck from Pier 80 at some speed. The truck licence numbers and the container numbers were all noted and a local contractor had taken a photo of the first truck and the numbers on the side of the shipping container."
This is beyond ridiculous.
Agreed. Even more ridiculous is Spooner wanting $13,000/month more for housing in Bermuda. contract spat
"The vessel was in three containers and the US Marshals went into the Oracle Compound at Pier 80 at 9.00 am this morning and big MAC trucks were arriving to pick up containers. US Marshall Christian Hanson had called Oracle's lawyer at 8.20 am from the Federal Building in San Francisco and told him that no containers with the vessel were to leave Pier 80 otherwise Oracle would be in contempt of the court's order.
However as US Marshall Christian Hanson and his Deputy approached Pier 80 two containers were being removed by truck from Pier 80 at some speed. The truck licence numbers and the container numbers were all noted and a local contractor had taken a photo of the first truck and the numbers on the side of the shipping container."
This is beyond ridiculous.
It is kind of silly. That kind of law was written for a completely different type of situation. Besides, I thought that is was already ruled on that it didn't apply here and that the guy was paid for the time he actually spent with the team. The boat couldn't be "arrested" for a case involving damages - only wages not paid that were earned while on the vessel.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/10/1502:55 PM
On the other hand he planned his life around having this job for a set time. He signed a contract and as far as we know lived up to it. He might have turned down other offers to do this. Not enough info to really make a decision on this.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/26/1504:29 AM
Recurring theme of reducing costs “The existing operational costs of teams is much too high with a boat like the AC62. We discussed making this change early last year at a Competitors meeting in London but at that stage only ORACLE TEAM USA and Emirates Team New Zealand were in favor of using a smaller boat. But now that the teams have seen these new boats in action there is a clear majority of competitors who support the idea. I’d like to be able to say we have unanimous support from all the teams but that is not the case.”
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/26/1512:43 PM
yeah I won't be too pleased if they decide to downgrade to AC45's on foils. Even though the racing will still be great, the spectacle of it all will definitely suffer.
If you didn't get to see the AC72's in person then you really can't understand just how badass they were.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/26/1501:00 PM
I'm glad they pointed out that payroll was probably the highest portion of the overall cost... So yeah, switching to smaller/fewer boats (and less crew, shoreside support team, etc) would probably dramatically reduce costs...
But I will miss the crazy billionaire vs. crazy billionaire, no holds barred spend-fest on technology.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/26/1507:17 PM
Quote
Luna Rossa Challenge @lunarossa · 2h 2 hours ago #LunaRossaChallenge is distinctly opposed to the proposal to change the Class Rule for the 35th America’s Cup
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/27/1508:07 PM
Interesting perspective offered from this interview with Coutts. The only thing that was not expected was the outstanding performance from the modified foiling AC45 turbos. Not sure that matters anyway. The deal was done last summer.
The teams will be asked to vote on rule changes to the boat before the end of March, with only a majority vote required to make the change.
"It is notable that if we look back a few months, when the Luna Rossa team became Challenger of Record, they sought to change the process because they viewed it was wrong, and that decisions needed more of a consensus view. Therefore the process was changed to reflect this. The Protocol was changed such that the Challenger of Record does not have veto power, and that they would go along with the majority of votes among the challengers. So that’s what they did a few months ago, but now they seem to be saying that they only want consensus if they agree with it."
"Central to these changes is the introduction of an exciting new America’s Cup Class - a wing-sailed, foiling catamaran between 45 and 50 feet.
A majority of the teams has also now indicated a preference that all of the racing in 2017 be conducted at a single venue, Bermuda. The America’s Cup Event Authority will consider this in nominating a venue for the America’s Cup Qualifiers."
“Emirates Team New Zealand have filed an application to the America’s Cup Arbitration Panel in the belief that ACEA has breached their signed agreement and protocol obligations by discarding Auckland.”
"Rules experts spoken to by Sail-World today doubted whether the Protocol could legally be changed in the way announced for the 35th America's Cup. No members have been announced of the Arbitration body established under the Protocol which has been in existence since June 2014. The matter is not expected to be heard quickly, if it goes to a Hearing.
Any aggrieved teams have the option of resort to the New York Supreme Court, on matters relating to the Deed of Gift where the Challenger of Record, Luna Rossa has the strongest case to be heard. The other options for disaffected teams would be to withdraw from the regatta, or get on with the revised event.
Auckland would appear to be set to lose the Qualifier given that the majority of the teams had voted for a single venue. A final announcement on that is expected later."
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/01/1503:30 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
What a mess. The lead up to this race is such a **** fest.
Just this one?
Could the difference in cost between a 50ft and 62ft cat really be that significant? The 45s are cool but they are just not as impressive as a 62 footer.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/01/1505:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Jake
What a mess. The lead up to this race is such a **** fest.
Just this one?
Could the difference in cost between a 50ft and 62ft cat really be that significant? The 45s are cool but they are just not as impressive as a 62 footer.
"this race" was intended to be a general, all encompassing, reference to the America's Cup past, present, and future.
Re: AC62 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1501:15 AM
If the world series is on foiling 45' boats, it seems like the jump to the 50' will be rather boring. Unlike when the AC72s came out. I hope I am wrong.
The result of the vote proposed by the Event Authority with the agreement of the Defender of the 35th America’s Cup has overturned, with a majority vote, the America’s Cup Class Rule for the boat with which this edition will be held; this happened notwithstanding the fact that such rule had been previously adopted unanimously by the teams and was in force since June 2014. Following a careful evaluation of the serious implications of this unprecedented initiative, Team Luna Rossa confirms that it will withdraw from the 35th America’s Cup. Patrizio Bertelli declared: "I want to thank the whole team for its hard work during this past year; regretfully this effort has been frustrated by this manoeuvre that is unprecedented in the history of the America’s Cup. However, in sports, as in life, one cannot always go for compromise, after compromise, after compromise; sometimes it is necessary to make decisions that are painful but must be clear cut, as only these can make everybody aware of the drifts of the system and therefore set the basis for the future: respect of legality and sportsmanship”.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1502:28 PM
What a joke. Bet the Luna Rossa legal team is already drafting the complaint in New York.
It was Luna Rossa as the COR who petitioned for rule changes to be a majority by vote. Well, they got it. Be careful what you wish for. Hind sight is 20/20.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1507:33 PM
I'm kind of confused... this whole change to the class rule was to sweeten the pot for some teams that are sitting on the fence - thinking about getting into the event but are scared of the costs. The only serious one being a French entry.
So we got an AC48 class rule, that really wont be any different substantively than the AC45 - which isn't a cheap boat to campaign either. Certainly its less than the 72, but is it much different than the 62 in a meaningful quantity?
So we lost LR, who had at least a serious challenger pedigree - only to maybe get the entry of a French team whose challenger credentials are spotty at best. Not to mention the spotty position of ETNZ with regards to their funding and their evident displeasure with this change.
I just don't see the point of doing this. The AC48 isn't going to be nearly as spectacular to watch as the 72's or even the 62's would have been.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1507:49 PM
The AC event authority also pulled the plug on the Auckland qualifier event, which makes the ETNZ entry far from certain. So much for getting more teams involved.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1507:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
The AC event authority also pulled the plug on the Auckland qualifier event, which makes the ETNZ entry far from certain. So much for getting more teams involved.
Which is precisely why I'm doubting this decision. Seems like it was made from a pretty self-serving position.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/1509:41 PM
Richard Gladwell on Luna Rossa and the AC debacle "Luna Rossa as the next Challenger to have lodged their notice of Challenge, and endorsed the Australia's protocol with a few changes - one of which, in the interest of Cup harmony was to accede the effective Right of Veto that a Challenger if Record has over changes to the Protocol.
Instead Luna Rossa agreed to the will of the majority of the Challenges prevailing.
However they did not expect this to be used against them in the way that it was this week..." . . . "Initial indications were that Emirates Team New Zealand/Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron were the next in line, who would be an interesting option from Coutts' perspective - but may in the end be the only way of resolving the current impasse.
It is uncertain whether the America's Cup World series event scheduled for Cagliari in early June will continue. Luna Rossa have said they will honour all contractual obligations, however they are not the organizers. "
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/03/1511:47 AM
I think they should just do Rock, Paper, Scissors. We could get Ken Read and the other idiot to talk about what might happen for 50 minutes then get it over with.
I still don't get why France even has a vote. What have they ever done in the AC.
Foiling has ruined the whole thing. Eliminate it and the wings and the cost will come down.
The one guy that loves this whole thing is Pete Melvin.
''As far as I'm concerned, the America's Cup ends here. Forever. Irrevocably.''
"You want to know what the crazy thing is? That when they showed us the first protocol - the one we all conformed to and invested in - we screamed to the entire world that it was wrong and cost too much, and we proposed 55-foot boats. But they kept going straight ahead, forcing us to invest in these projects that they want to throw away now. They're not serious people and I don't want to have anything to do with them."
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/1511:16 PM
Originally Posted by Bille
Originally Posted by catman
...
Foiling has ruined the whole thing. Eliminate it and the wings and the cost will come down. ...
You were just being funny , when Ya said that ?
Bille
Actually I'm wrong. Making it "Commercially Viable" has ruined it. Can't fault RC, his boss gave him a directive and he's trying to make it happen just as anyone of us would be.
While it irks me I'm rooting for anyone but LE at this point. This race is supposed to be a design competition and if LE is tired of spending his money chasing it then get the hell out of the way and let what ever happens happen.
If you don't have the money to play then shut up and watch. I refer to BAR, TF and the rest of the want to be's.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/06/1505:34 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Bille
Originally Posted by catman
...
Foiling has ruined the whole thing. Eliminate it and the wings and the cost will come down. ...
You were just being funny , when Ya said that ?
Bille
Actually I'm wrong. Making it "Commercially Viable" has ruined it. Can't fault RC, his boss gave him a directive and he's trying to make it happen just as anyone of us would be.
While it irks me I'm rooting for anyone but LE at this point. This race is supposed to be a design competition and if LE is tired of spending his money chasing it then get the hell out of the way and let what ever happens happen.
If you don't have the money to play then shut up and watch. I refer to BAR, TF and the rest of the want to be's.
"Commercially viable"? They may say things like that but to be commercially viable requires a lot of entries. To get a lot of entries, the boat needs to be low cost and closer to OD. A lot of entries means lots of competitors. A lot of competitors and a stricter OD means a greater chance that anyone could win it and the cup could change hands. The only reason someone that holds the cup might ACTUALLY want it to be more commercially viable is when they don't care whether or not they keep it. Part of me wonders if Ellison is tired of the rigors (and cost) of organization with this latest decision to downsize and make the event more affordable.
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/07/1508:56 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
... Part of me wonders if Ellison is tired of the rigors (and cost) of organization with this latest decision to downsize and make the event more affordable.
OR Ellison is a highly competitive person ; that Likes to win , (win against All who Dare Try).
I was the best ACRO pilot at my local hang gliding club ; didn't know i sucked till i went to a world comp. I got #4 at the worlds ; and That : "didn't quite make the podium" . -------(sigh)
Re: AC48 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/19/1501:32 PM
I am certainly looking forward to what a fleet of foilers will look like on the course. Probably very similar to a Moth fleet, but I wonder if the boat tactics will be simliar?
Is it worth risking to engage in boat/fleet tactics on foilers?
America’s Cup sailors Jimmy Spithill, Tom Slingsby, Rome Kirby and Andrew Campbell from ORACLE TEAM USA were joined by newly appointed SoftBank Team Japan skipper Dean Barker, all of whom served as the crew on the Hobie Waves, with the youth sailors handling skippering duties.