Scoring

I was wondering why the Rules of Sailing as issued by ISF specifies equally that boats which are DNS, DNC, OCS, DNF, DSQ, BFD all get scored equally:

# boats entered in Series +1.

It seems that this places equal weight on someone that entered a race but failed to finish to someone who didn't leave the beach.

Thoughts or rationale to this scoring system?

I'd like to see us score such that if you enter a race (ie start) that you should be scored number of boats which started that race +1.

It's been that way for at least 8? 12? years.

The points for DNF and TLE (time limit expired) are often re-defined in the sailing instructions.

I make a motion that we redefine them in the SI's for all beachcat regatta's.

The rules are this way because you don't have to verify the number of starters.

With a 70 boat fleet... do you really want to run a check in process for boats before the start of Race 2.

The definition of starting is crossing the starting line.... So... do you want to have the RC try to verify that everyone started... and did not just come to the starting area.

What do you do with the fellow who comes to the starting area and then returns to the beach.

The DNF score is also contingent on the RC recording starters... not just those boats in the starting area... So... if you want to change the score for DNF your RC must record all starters... again.. with a large fleet... it is just not worth it.

Bottom line... ask your PRO if they want to get into counting noses at the starting line before you fuss with the SI's and write up all your non standard definitions.

When is the last time a beach cat regatta ever had 70 boats on the same starting line, at the same time?

We see 10-20 at most. But I agree, it's impossible for the RC to try to count heads, even with only 20 boats, in the melee that is the start, to see how many actually started.

How about you have to show up at the committee boat and 'sign in' prior to each race, to be scored for that race? That way, if you do drop out, you aren't "eating it" for all those who never left the beach.

You can mody the scoring all you want... but for what purpose.

What do you gain? IMO, the entries plus 1 segments the fleet for finishers properly.

Moreover, its not like the RC and safety boats doesn't worry about a boat on the way out to the race course... you can get into big trouble anywhere. so.. the entries plus one makes the choice straight forward... in or out... not.. well I will start and then retire.. cause I really don't think I can handle the conditions.

Finally, when you have a rule.. all boats must finish within 15 minutes of the first place boat... the newbies who are way behind will be scored TLE.. What argument do you make that they should be scored right behind the actual race. The PRO can use the rule... and then have the chase boats sweep them up to start a new race. Nobody gets to complain that they were closer to the finish then the other guys. Otherwise... you have to wait for the sailor(s) to Ret, or finish.

What do the PRO's argue as good policy for a drifter when just one or two boats finish and the bulk of the fleet are TLE'd.... should they abandon that race before they finish... or accept the scores 1 and 2 and the other 13 boats eat a 16?

Whoa... a PRO who does not know how many boats are on the course, in each fleet, for each race, has already lost control (not saying that I haven't been there). No one wants to be left alone out there.

It is NORMAL SOP to count heads after the start, and convey that information to the mark boats for safety reasons. I often have 2-3 people on the signal boat count, as well as one or more of the mark boats. You then need to keep track as boats drop out during and after races. No one wants to be left alone out there.

Having said that, if you're actually waiting to do this until after the start, you're also not in control. Especially when the conditions are sporty, and/or you're a long way from the beach, it's vital to know who is on the course, who may be sitting out a race, and who has left (and notify the beach to be looking for them). No one wants to be left alone out there.

YES, I do this at 70+ boat regattas. It's not difficult, it just needs to be a priority and resourced. No one wants to be left alone out there...

Back to the original question, I was one of the most upset people I know when the rule changed (I helped PU set up the initial Hobie Standard SIs for the first year of the new rules, lobbied to make the change for all of our regattas, but lost the argument).

My position was, if someone starts, sails 3/4 of the race, then flips, they should get credit for being out there, vs. someone who never left the beach.

While I don't recall ever seeing anyone do this, several more experienced guys told me that it was common in some classes for boats to start, then immediately stop racing so they'd get a few extra points (as opposed to just sailing in after the race before).

Hope this helps.

Mike

Mark, to answer your DFL question, we are vitally aware of the status of the leaders, as well as the trailing fleet.

One of my favorite things I learned from PU was the "Mercy Killing" (a.k.a. Finished on Water, Finished in Place, etc.).

I've been successful in introducing this to monohull regattas, and only diehards with huge ego problems are opposed. Realistically, anyone you're finishing in the back will not be in contention for a trophy, and we all have a hard enough time getting people to come back without throwing them out of races. Doing this also allows us to not have to wait for the entire time limit to expire.

Again, it's about the PRO watching the fleets. Well before the trailing boats get to the second to last mark, I know if and who will need to be put out of their misery.

This gets written into the SIs, and I tell them at the skippers meeting that we will be doing this, and let everyone know that the goal is to get more races in. I also use the opportunity to remind sailors that if they are approached by a mark boat and told they are finished, they should use the opportunity to thank the volunteers.

Believe me, as someone who's spent too much time at the back of the fleet, the last thing I want is to make everyone wait for me to finish when it's clear that I won't be catching anyone any time soon. Especially at NAs...

Mike

TB, c'mon man, that flip and outside assist would have only cost you one point and you still beat us if scored properly. If I hadn't been OCS in race 2, I would have gotten you...racin' is racin.

I can't wait to show you the video from race 2 on Sunday where we had a nailbiter across the line and Ted stood on the front beam shaking his head "nuhhuh!". ;-)

Jake, it wasn't about the flip (although that did get us talking about scoring) ... it wouldn't have mattered anyway as you mentioned due to our various throwouts we would have still beat you [down] by 1 pt B!@tches

It just seems to me that if in a similar situation we did get a DSQ after racing and being near the front of the anywhere in the fleet we get scored the same as someone that didn't race seems unfair.

So I go back to the original motion:

Boat starts but does not finish gets # of starters plus 1.

I don't have a preference anymore, but see the last paragraph in my first post above as the best reason I've heard for the current scoring practice.

Another reasonably good reason is that this requires the SIs to change the RRS (which must be done correctly or doesn't apply), and there are issues with regatta-to-regatta consistency, even when there are class standard templates.

Mike

Mike
Re Mercy Killing.
Do you have to have a TLE in the race SIs for the PRO to execute a Mercy Killing? Do you have to finish the laggards at a mark... or can you just finish them up the course.

RE... starting the last race and then quitting for the purpose of banking some points... I put this behavior in the gamesmanship category... IE you play your opponent and the rules for an advantage as part of the unfortunate shift in the culture of sailboat racing.. The rules makers are forced to make rules which stop the BS gamesmanship but the poor guy who works hard at racing, has a breakdown, now gets the same score as the guy watching from the beach. Oh well...

(GET OFF MY LAWN)!!!

so, in summary, if you're just going to go out there and flip all day, you should probably stay on the beach.

A race ends when the time limit (if any) expires, when the last boat finishes, or when the race committee abandons it. Race committee may shorten the length of a leg (change course), or shorten course (finish the race at a rounding mark). The racing rules have no other provision for taking finishes. If you want to assign positions on the water, the procedure must be in the sailing instructions.


Taking an advantage within the rules is not necessarily unsportsmanlike.

Ah... the fundamental problem in this debate ...

I used the word "gamesmanship" Since when does that mean unsportsmanlike.
If we are sailing under the old school rules... playing the system would be unsportsmanlike...

Now we play by different "conduct rules" and the Gamesmanship is part and parcel of the game....
So.... the rule makers specify a rule... DNF = number of entries plus 1

There is no such thing as "old school rules". Sailboat racing is a game and always has been. It is played according to a body of rules (and always has been). Those who desire to place well will (had always have) use those rules to their advantage. That is "gamesmanship". It is neither good nor bad; it just is -- and always has been.

As I mentioned above, I put it in the SIs. Some OAs and judges feel better if you include verbiage about the purpose is to allow more racing. I don't like to see statements like "after 50% of the fleet has finished..." because sometimes you need to kill people well before anyone finishes (picture W/L with a mid-course S/F line and an 80-boat Opti fleet, mixed bag of "haves" and "have-nots." The most fair place to finish them is at the last top mark, sometimes the leaders aren't quite finished yet, and you have 4-5 boats still going to the weather mark.

Mike

We've had this wording where the RC has the right to finish boats on the water - but I don't think I've ever seen a case where it's done. Most of the time, we're going to have to wait for them to make their way back to the start line for the next start anyway...and it's not like we all weren't there at one time in our sailing lives.

I've done it, seen it done, and (much to my chagrin) had it done to me. Usually, it's at a club race, where new racer(s) are more than a leg of the course behind. It does occur, however, at bigger races too - such as Charleston Race Week.

In every instance I've witnessed, RC asked the boat in question if she was willing to be scored "on the water" first.

Well, I prep them for that at the skippers meeting, as mentioned above, to soften the blow. Rule of thumb is, if they're close enough to duke it out with another boat, we'll let them go, but otherwise, we just put them out of their misery. When they expect it, and see it in action, they actually appreciate it. Our intention is always to get more races, not stop people from having fun. Trust me, there's nothing fun about being DFL, a lap plus behind, as the leaders are finishing, and you'll probably beat the window, but just barely...

I'm going through some SIs from last year...

Hobie NAs in DE, this is the cleanest and close to the original verbiage from our PU-led days:

"Boats may be finished on the course at the discretion of the RC. The RC determines the method and order of finishing. This changes RRS 35 and A4."

TLE limit is a separate issue. I've been tempted to make this not protestable by a boat (always leave an out for the RC or jury to file if there's some good reason), just to keep some bonehead in the middle of the fleet to keep from protesting that the DFL guys would have had the window closed and should be scored DNF; but it hasn't come up (yet).

Mike

Mike

It seems to me... you have a choice of TLE OR a Mercy kill on the course.

The TLE NOR's have two forms... So many minutes behind the first place finisher will be scored TLE DNF's ... OR the RC sets an arbitrary time limit for the race or just declares a clock time as the TLE in the NOR for a distance race.

I much prefer the Mercy Kill in a OD race. Suffered through a god awful race with a TLE of 2 hours for the race... 2 boats finished before the fluky wind died altogether... The PRO was stuck... abandon the race or wait for the time limit. We all suffered knowing the chances were for no more races that day... It would have been better back at the pool.

Time to steal that wording and get them to substitute Mercy Kill for TLE.

It's not an exact science, and we're talking about the back of the fleet here. You have to take a (small) leap of faith here, this really is the most fair way to do this, and if nothing else, it's the best tool to eliminate the #1 complaint of too much sitting around between races.

Trust me, you CAN have TLE and FOW, and everyone's lives work out just fine...

Mike

PS: If you really want your brain to melt, two other very highly respected IROs (who also happen to be judges) showed me that this can be done for handicapped fleets as well. That takes major cajones...

Speaking from experience, when I [was] in the back of the fleet I'd cut the race short and tell the RC to DNF me ... it's not like I needed the points!

To me I'd rather line up and try again ... you learn alot more when you're in close proximity to other boats!