Catsailor.com

35th America's Cup

Posted By: David Parker

35th America's Cup - 07/16/15 04:55 PM

Time to start a new AC thread!

The 35th America's Cup starts next Thursday, July 23, 2015 with the "Louis Vuitton America's Cup World Series".

At least four events are scheduled in 2015, including:

Portsmouth, Great Britain - July 23-26, 2015
Gothenburg, Sweden - August 27-30, 2015
Hamilton, Bermuda - October 16-18, 2015

Four to six events are expected in 2016, including a second event in Portsmouth in July and a regatta in Chicago during the summer.

The 35th Americas Cup will be raced in Bermuda in June of 2017.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/17/15 09:17 PM

Practice racing starts in Portsmouth on Friday, July 24.
The competition consists of four fleet races - two each on Saturday and Sunday.

Does anyone know if these will be broadcast on any TV channels? Will it be on the AC YouTube channel? Has there been any announcement of the times for the races?

Time to flashmob your local sports bar with all your sailing rummies and get all 100 TVs tuned to the AC!
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/17/15 09:37 PM

the schedule for the Portsmouth racing is on their site.
http://acws-portsmouth.americascup.com/en/whats_going_on.html

the racing starts at 1:30
didn't see any info yet about your other question.
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/18/15 04:17 PM

Good luck.

Television
BT Sport is the UK Live Host Broadcaster for the 20152017 Americas Cup. During the 2015 Portsmouth event they will show all racing action live on BT Sport and will do the same for all other ACWS events.

BBC is the UK Highlights Host Broadcaster for the 20152017 Americas Cup. During the 2015 Portsmouth event they will show a half hour evening highlights show on the Saturday and Sunday evening as well as an event hour long highlights show on the Monday evening after the event

Read more at http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news...-in-portsmouth-31359#B0qSBwlVF8bo1LM3.99
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/15 12:39 PM

When I am on the road in Dubai, Tel Aviv, Johannesburg, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, I can watch a sailing show produced by CNN called Mainsail, which recaps what ever the big event of the time is, be it an ocean race or AC.

I can never see that show here in the USA. I have emailed CNN to request they show it here as well, but never got a response.

Given the huge popularity of the last AC, with the excitement of 40 knot flying boats, I would hope ESPN or CNN or somebody here would show it. Last time, the fleet racing was more exciting (more crashes) than many of the 19 final races.

Here's a Mainsail clip on the Peyron brothers racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utuD8p_wAjk
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/15 06:25 PM

Mainsail used to be on tv here. Might have been on Speed or Outside. Those don't exist on Direct TV anymore. Shortly after AC 33 it was gone.

I'm thinking it will all wind up on Youtube anyway.

On Direct TV there is a ACWS show scheduled for Tue 7/28 at 7pm on NBCSports channel 220. Maybe a highlights show? NBCS has a secondary channel 220a which shows "to be announced" in the guide but that's normal for that channel.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/15 09:39 PM

Mainsail can be watched from their web site.

http://edition.cnn.com/sport/sailing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
When I am on the road in Dubai, Tel Aviv, Johannesburg, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, I can watch a sailing show produced by CNN called Mainsail, which recaps what ever the big event of the time is, be it an ocean race or AC.

I can never see that show here in the USA.


Add this extension for FF
http://www.stealthy.co/
or for Chrome
http://www.stealthy.co/chrome/
and learn the settings.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 02:07 AM

Whats it like to sail a foiling Americas Cup boat with Ben Ainslie?

"strapping a large divers knife to my arm and checking the fit of a helmet that has a flip down, Top Gun style sun visor before being asked whether I had ever used an oxygen breather, provided some clues that I had stepped a long way outside of the normal world of performance sailing."
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 03:49 PM

Looks like the Chinese will get to watch the America's Cup but not the Americans.

CCTVSE acquires exclusive rights for China in groundbreaking agreement

Maybe there will be a USA deal soon.

There was an announcement back in February that NBC would have coverage of all America's Cup World Series in 2015 and 2016 on NBCSN but nothing is listed on their website.

Scuttlebutt announcement of NBC coverage from February
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Looks like the Chinese will get to watch the America's Cup but not the Americans.

CCTVSE acquires exclusive rights for China in groundbreaking agreement

Maybe there will be a USA deal soon.


They obviously don't care about us 'mericans. They aren't even having the finals here!!!

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Looks like the Chinese will get to watch the America's Cup but not the Americans.

CCTVSE acquires exclusive rights for China in groundbreaking agreement

Maybe there will be a USA deal soon.

There was an announcement back in February that NBC would have coverage of all America's Cup World Series in 2015 and 2016 on NBCSN but nothing is listed on their website.

Scuttlebutt announcement of NBC coverage from February


Be sure to check for NBC Sports Network - it's different from the NBC scheduling. From http://www.nbcsports.com/nbc-sports-group-acquires-us-rights-35th-americas-cup

Dated Feb. 9, 2015:
Quote
The NBC Sports Group has acquired the U.S. broadcast rights for the 2017 America's Cup.

According to the deal announced Monday, NBC will provide live coverage of both weekends of the America's Cup match in Bermuda in summer 2017. Other live coverage of the match and the challenger elimination series will air on NBC and NBC Sports Network. Coverage of all America's Cup World Series events in 2015 and 2016 will be on NBCSN.

Unlike in 2013, when the America's Cup Event Authority bought air time and then sold advertising, this is a joint venture in which the NBC Sports Group and the ACEA will collaborate on sponsorship and advertising sales.

The America's Cup match will be between two-time defending champion Oracle Team USA and the winner of the challenger series.
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 06:11 PM

It is showing up on my Xfinity line up:
NBCSP Channel 730
7/28- 7:00pm
NBCSP HD Channel 408
7/28- 7:00pm
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 06:54 PM

Lol
It's ruled a TKO for the bowman
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 07:18 PM

I did like the Youtube thing last time... especially since it didn't have commercials for feminine hygiene products and stuff.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by cyberspeed
It is showing up on my Xfinity line up:
NBCSP Channel 730
7/28- 7:00pm
NBCSP HD Channel 408
7/28- 7:00pm


Obviously that would be a recap show? It's 2 days after the event?
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 07:51 PM

So, the BT Sport deal is a newer announcement than the NBC one?
i am interested in a full replay of the live broadcast for european racing and live broadcast for bermuda racing.

from the bt sport site;
Can I order the BT Sport app and online player on its own?
No, but it's included for free with BT Sport on the Sky Digital Satellite Platform and with BT Sport on BT TV. The app and online player is also available with our BT Broadband packages for just 5 a month.

www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/bt-sport#sport-picker
How do I start using the BT Sport app and online player?
First, you need to download the app from the Apple App store or Google Play store.
Next, you need to activate the BT Sport app on your BT account. Just log in to bt , click on 'BT Sport' and follow the instructions.
When you use the app, and when you want to watch BT Sport at btsport.com, you'll need to enter your BT ID.

so far we got the app on my wife's iphone but i wasn't able to get to the next step. i am not so good at navigating websites on a little phone screen....or maybe usa people are blocked from signing up with bt?
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/15 11:32 PM

Quote
Can I order the BT Sport app and online player on its own?
No, but it's included for free with BT Sport on the Sky Digital Satellite Platform and with BT Sport on BT TV. The app and online player is also available with our BT Broadband packages for just 5 a month.


Keep reading that page! It says that all IPs outside of the UK will be blocked, even if you have paid for the BT Sport package.
Look's like you'd have to have a BT Sports account and log in through a VPN to hide your location. How convenient!
Maybe that's because they want to negotiate a separate contract for each country/continent like they did for China. Our day will come...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 12:13 AM

you don't have the right friends in IT. I got your back dave ($$$)
Originally Posted by David Parker
Quote
Can I order the BT Sport app and online player on its own?
No, but it's included for free with BT Sport on the Sky Digital Satellite Platform and with BT Sport on BT TV. The app and online player is also available with our BT Broadband packages for just 5 a month.


Keep reading that page! It says that all IPs outside of the UK will be blocked, even if you have paid for the BT Sport package.
Maybe that's because they want to negotiate a separate contract for each country/continent like they did for China. Our day will come...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I did like the Youtube thing last time... especially since it didn't have commercials for feminine hygiene products and stuff.


Really?

Those commercials are the only reason I watch TV!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:27 AM

I've been watching the Tour De France on NBCSP (Comcast cable) so I'm guessing they will also have the AC? I hope they cover all the lead in racing this summer, not just the finals. Last AC, some of the fleet racing on the 45's was much more exciting (and lots of crashes!) than some of the finals.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Last AC, some of the fleet racing on the 45's was much more exciting (and lots of crashes!) than some of the finals.


+1

Some of it was hard to watch, especially in the very beginning (think way back to the training wheels/poles on the mark boats), but fleet racing almost always has more excitement opportunity than match racing.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Quote
Can I order the BT Sport app and online player on its own?
No, but it's included for free with BT Sport on the Sky Digital Satellite Platform and with BT Sport on BT TV. The app and online player is also available with our BT Broadband packages for just 5 a month.


Keep reading that page! It says that all IPs outside of the UK will be blocked, even if you have paid for the BT Sport package.
Maybe that's because they want to negotiate a separate contract for each country/continent like they did for China. Our day will come...


I got it working here in the US, but it comes with some headaches. First, you have to have a UK provider that includes Sky Sport or BT Sport in the package before you can stream with an account. I have family in London so I used their acct and password. Then you need to use the addon extention Stealthy and configure it to "GB" (United Kingdom proxy). It did not work using FF but did work using Chrome. Be patient because it takes several minutes for the proxy to establish.

So it's doable, but you will need access to an account.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 11:08 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 11:12 AM

Look who showed up for the party

[Linked Image]
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 12:58 PM

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...st-rights-for-the-35th-Americas-Cup.html

Well this says NBCS will broadcast all of it, I just wonder if anything has changed because of the changes made to the ACWS.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 01:42 PM

Just my guess, but remember that annoying anchor for AC34? Todd Harris? Well, the $$golden child$$ for NBC Sports is the Tour de France, which Todd Harris is the anchor, along with Bob Roll and Christian Vande Velde. Unfortunately, the Tour de France is happening right now and at the same time as Portsmouth. To broadcast live, both are happening simultaneously. NBC Sports is just one network. They are not going to bump the Tour to broadcast ACWS Portsmouth. Ain't gonna happen.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 01:45 PM

Quote
Sport TV secures broadcast rights in Portugal for the Americas Cup

mad
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo

Really?

Those commercials are the only reason I watch TV!


Timbo, do you ever feel "Not so fresh?"

I watch for the drug commercial that has everyone in bathtubs. Maybe it treats some disease like leprosy where you have to wash a lot... Or maybe it treats OCD hand-washers? Or maybe the drug just makes you want to take baths.. outdoors?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Last AC, some of the fleet racing on the 45's was much more exciting (and lots of crashes!) than some of the finals.


+1

I think the Portsmouth stop was the best..> Big wind and they didn't know that much about controlling those things at that stage in the trials....
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Unfortunately, the Tour de France is happening right now and at the same time as Portsmouth. To broadcast live, both are happening simultaneously. NBC Sports is just one network. They are not going to bump the Tour to broadcast ACWS Portsmouth. Ain't gonna happen.


put it on "The OCHO"... dodgeball, anyone?
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Just my guess, but remember that annoying anchor for AC34? Todd Harris? Well, the $$golden child$$ for NBC Sports is the Tour de France, which Todd Harris is the anchor, along with Bob Roll and Christian Vande Velde. Unfortunately, the Tour de France is happening right now and at the same time as Portsmouth. To broadcast live, both are happening simultaneously. NBC Sports is just one network. They are not going to bump the Tour to broadcast ACWS Portsmouth. Ain't gonna happen.


They have 2 channels on Direct TV so we will see. I doubt NBCS will actually film the events. They would just pick up the feed and broadcast.
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 03:51 PM

http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlisti...;channel=&sgt=grid&aid=nbcsports

The only thing that shows up is the Tuesday eve show.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 04:03 PM

I can't find the AC app. are they using it this year?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I can't find the AC app. are they using it this year?

I have the app on my phone but it doesn't download any data. Basically a dead app.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 04:18 PM

maybe you can hack it so we can stream the ACWS from that app?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo

Really?

Those commercials are the only reason I watch TV!


Timbo, do you ever feel "Not so fresh?"

I watch for the drug commercial that has everyone in bathtubs. Maybe it treats some disease like leprosy where you have to wash a lot... Or maybe it treats OCD hand-washers? Or maybe the drug just makes you want to take baths.. outdoors?


Whenever I have that 'not so fresh' feeling, I pour a little Fresca on a pantie liner and then strap it on. It gives me that little extra lift I need to make it through all my house cleaning and doing the laundry, and I have a spring in my step too.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 05:33 PM

I just Tweeted Todd Harris of NBC (my first Tweet!) and he said "Sadly NO, I'm on #tourdefrance2015 duty. Not sure about coverage maybe a delayed high light show but NO live. Bummer "

Please write to NBC and ask for AC coverage. It may not get done for Portsmouth but maybe they will show Gothenburg in August if enough people gripe about it.

NBC Sports contact page

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
I just Tweeted Todd Harris of NBC (my first Tweet!) and he said "Sadly NO, I'm on #tourdefrance2015 duty. Not sure about coverage maybe a delayed high light show but NO live. Bummer "

Please write to NBC and ask for AC coverage. It may not get done for Portsmouth but maybe they will show Gothenburg in August if enough people gripe about it.

NBC Sports contact page


Sadly a waste of time. Here is where you will get some traction.

Email for Harvey Schiller - Commercial Commissioner:
harvey.schiller@americascup.com

Remember, everybody plays by the ACEA rules.

"The Americas Cup Event Authority (ACEA) is a Bermuda-based company tasked with the organization of the 35th Americas Cup, including all commercial, broadcast and event hosting functions."

Here are some others that might help:

Broadcast

John Cameron - Technical Operations Manager ACTV
Denis Harvey - ACTV Executive Producer
Terri MacFarlane - Production Manager ACTV
Mark Sheffield - AC Liveline Director

Marketing and Communications

Jay Basnight - Digital Marketing
Sara Gottman - Head of PR
Jillian Koravos - Product and Marketing Coordinator
Peter Rusch - PR and Communications Director
Tucker Thompson - TV & Public Host of AC35
Lyn Winford - Graphic Designer
Christina White - Graphic Designer

Events

Julien di Biase - Director of Events
Christian Peer - ACWS Project Manager

IT
Warren Jones - IT Manager

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
maybe you can hack it so we can stream the ACWS from that app?

It's dead. It does have the data for the virtual eye for all the LV races and the Cup races, as well as the results, schedule (34th AC), and teams, etc.

I will provide the apk + data if any body wants it to side load and play with it.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:11 PM

sigh...so an American Yacht Club is defending the cup but we won't be able to watch the pre-series here in 'merica?

I bet they'll open up a youtube channel like they've done previously.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:20 PM

Currently the solutions I see possible:

Get access to Sky Sport or BT Sport account and password and stealth a UK proxy . . .
or
use a livestream (i.e.- livestream365.com) and select a eurosport channel and view it there (if someone hosts it).

I've been watching the last 16 stages of the Tour de France from my cell phone while I'm away from the office using the livestream and it has worked flawlessly.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:38 PM

Found another solution:
Delta has award seats for 60,000 points and fee of $205. Get's you there Friday morning. Not a bad deal at all. smile
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 06:41 PM

Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 08:53 PM

on another forum they were saying the new ac app will be out soon for like $8 or something, and there will be a live stream on it. So some people could watch it on an iphone or pad.
is there a way to use an ios app on a mac laptop?

what a change from the first acws where Mr. Ellison was apparently hemorrhaging money to get the show going. Even the on board feeds were uploaded. Those were cool.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/21/15 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Even the on board feeds were uploaded. Those were cool.


yes, they were. Even when they had to stop some of them for "colorful language"
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 03:27 AM

Never say never, but apparently the odds of the ACWS returning to Newport are nearly nonexistent. Big time bummer...

Mike
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 01:37 PM

Bottom line, the races will be on somewhere at some point. Go sailing and have fun and forget about this.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Found another solution:
Delta has award seats for 60,000 points and fee of $205. Get's you there Friday morning. Not a bad deal at all. smile


I'm flying from JFK to Tel Aviv tonight, might pass right over England on the way there, maybe I'll get a peek! Oh, and they rent catamarans right across the street from our hotel, I might get out on a cat... and Pretend I'm foiling at 30 knots!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 07:52 PM

received in email...I think you can view the rest of the info here:
http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5b22acb550cbb7053ea617522&id=37ccbda4fe&e=eb119f8d86


Quote
How to Watch Live: Portsmouth AC World Series Racing

ACEA will release a new app on Wednesday July 22nd.
Download the new America's Cup (AC) App available on iOS and Android for live race coverage (live video is restricted in some territories), race highlights, team interviews and rich content from the race village events, as well as news, features and social feeds.

Check the America's Cup website from Wednesday onwards for a link to their new app in the iTunes Store and in Google Play.


...


Mark Your Calendar! Webcast Schedule
One Wednesday per Month, at Noon Eastern Time.
Replays will be available on the Cup Experience website.
July 29 Portsmouth ACWS - Results and Analysis
August 26
September 23
October 28
November 18
December 16
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 08:02 PM

I am the second downloader (must be behind Jake). who knew?

I wonder what the "in-app purchases" are? SWAG?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 08:42 PM

Here's a nice schedule. Times are London time so adjust accordingly.
Portsmouth Schedule
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 08:44 PM

Chinese in talks to mount Americas Cup challenge
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 08:46 PM

Ouch!
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/22/15 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I am the second downloader (must be behind Jake). who knew?

I wonder what the "in-app purchases" are? SWAG?


Not swag. I believe it's 8 dollars per event to watch.

www.americascup.com/en/ac-plus.html
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/23/15 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by P.M.


Genius then removes his helmet... Wow...

Weird timing. I literally transported a head injury today (Club 420 Nationals)...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/23/15 12:35 PM

Watching the "parade of sails" going on now.
from a rather crappy live cam
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/23/15 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by catman


Not swag. I believe it's 8 dollars per event to watch.

www.americascup.com/en/ac-plus.html


well, that kinda sucks... but they gotta pay the bills somehow.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/24/15 01:27 AM

Hilarious. Jimmy receiving the "one design kingpost" award.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/24/15 03:36 AM

I hope their app does not fail. It's one thing to watch it free but it's something else when you pay for it.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/24/15 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by catman
I hope their app does not fail. It's one thing to watch it free but it's something else when you pay for it.


Aparently SA will have instructions posted later this week that will let you know how to watch it without paying $7.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 11:50 AM

Racing start on the 1/2 hour.

A couple of recaps from yesterday's practice.

Louis Vuitton America's Cup series - Ainslie impresses in Portsmouth

America's Cup - Emirates Team NZ scores a first and third in Practice
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 11:57 AM

This seems the best place to get live commentary.

Live from the Flight Deck at Land Rover BAR
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 12:12 PM

Active now. . .
Free Live Stream of Racing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 12:13 PM

Another Stream
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 01:35 PM

Here is access to full HD stripped of all adds and redirects, gives media control back and direct feed using FF or chrome

Bingo
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 02:21 PM

All of these feeds were of suspect quality unfortunately. I have 300mbps internet and all of them were buffering constantly and not even on HD.. frown

Hope they get the US video rights sorted and quick.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 03:26 PM

The last link I provided worked perfectly for me on both FF and Chrome, and definitely in HD. No buffering issues. I was also streaming the Tour at the same time. Both browsers had AdBlock Plus extension enabled. Stealthy disabled.

The AC+ app is crap.
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Here is access to full HD stripped of all adds and redirects, gives media control back and direct feed using FF or chrome

Bingo


This works perfectly on my PC W/Chrome and ad block+. Can't get full screen and I missed today's events. Will try tomorrow.

Thanks Philip!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
Here is access to full HD stripped of all adds and redirects, gives media control back and direct feed using FF or chrome

Bingo


This works perfectly on my PC W/Chrome and ad block+. Can't get full screen and I missed today's events. Will try tomorrow.

Thanks Philip!


The full screen might be an issue with chrome rendering the aspect ratio to 5:4 instead of the native 16:9. I saw it happen with chrome on one of my machines but not on another.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 10:17 PM

Both skippers protested. Ruled no foul by either.
Time marked at 1:15

Full video:
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/25/15 10:22 PM

Americas Cup and ISAF reach agreement just ahead of ACWS Portsmouth


'The ISAF jury appeared to be on a crusade to 'save the Americas Cup' and I believe they may have allowed that belief to cloud their judgment.

'In fact, it is interesting to note that around the same time, the President of ISAF was actively discussing moves to try to grab more control over the event.'

'There are many very good people in ISAF that have worked hard and given up a lot to further the interests of the sport. However, the current administration with their politically charged agenda is doing our sport a huge disservice in my view.'
Posted By: bacho

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/26/15 11:02 AM

Does that last link still work? Did you have to create a log-in?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/26/15 11:39 AM

Racing abandoned for today due to weather.
announcement

[Linked Image]
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/26/15 03:25 PM

Looks like they may have plugged that leak. Now I get a access denied.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/27/15 01:26 PM

anyone have a replay link?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/27/15 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
anyone have a replay link?

There is none due to licensing rights.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/27/15 02:52 PM

fabulous. But being the cheapskate that i am, I should expect not having instant, free access to everything I want...
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/31/15 08:12 AM

Not really AC related but cool nonetheless.

VIDEO: The first foiling MOD70 Gitana Teams Edmond de Rothschild flies during her first trials!
Read more at http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/v...r-first-trials-66373#xQyccIIDGFXrXKW7.99

Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/31/15 09:31 PM

Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.
Posted By: pepin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/01/15 09:47 AM

Timbo: Can you provide an example where you saw a foiler pitchpole? The foils actually prevent the dreaded pitchpole in the first place.

The current foilers have a nose down attitude, but that's on purpose, as it is faster (less drag if the front hits the water than if the transom does). The only moment when these boats can pitchpole is if the foil is not working (boat not going fast enough through a transition for example).
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/01/15 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/01/15 04:04 PM

Does this count?
[Linked Image]

Attached picture NZ AC72 stuffs a bow.jpg
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/01/15 06:14 PM

That's a great shot. However,it did not go over.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/01/15 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Does this count?
[Linked Image]


That, as they say, is not fast...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/02/15 02:50 PM

The lack of ability to watch the America's Cup is starting to affect my desire to see any of it. While $8 isn't staggering by any means, I just didn't feel like paying that to see it (partially figuring that it would be available for free moments after I shelled over the $8).

If you want me to pay a few bucks, have a feature presentation put together that compiles the racing action with an inside view from each venue and make it available by subscription at Netflix, or Amazon, etc (where I know I won't have feed reliability issues). I would probably watch the (free) racing and then pay for that to see some inside information on the action.

It's as if our own team kinda gave up on us US schmucks.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/02/15 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.


They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?

Here's the Red Bull 18's foiling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyVPBob9qvI

And an A cat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/02/15 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA


they actually started that way. The problem was (didn't we have this conversation before?) that with the shared lift of the main and secondary foils, the boat was very unstable when transitioning from displacement mode to foiling mode. At some point in that transition, the boat needs to pitch up in order to get to an elevated foiling position. With forward mounted foils and rudders lifting (and no allowed trim tabs on any of the foils), the boat tended to porpoise badly and was very difficult to control. It was only until they brought the foils back closer to the center of mass of the boat that they were able to achieve a stable transition from displacement to foiling....which is the same reason airplanes have a primary lifting wing close to the CG of the aircraft.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/02/15 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA


they actually started that way. The problem was (didn't we have this conversation before?) that with the shared lift of the main and secondary foils, the boat was very unstable when transitioning from displacement mode to foiling mode. At some point in that transition, the boat needs to pitch up in order to get to an elevated foiling position. With forward mounted foils and rudders lifting (and no allowed trim tabs on any of the foils), the boat tended to porpoise badly and was very difficult to control. It was only until they brought the foils back closer to the center of mass of the boat that they were able to achieve a stable transition from displacement to foiling....which is the same reason airplanes have a primary lifting wing close to the CG of the aircraft.

Think of the rudder foils serving to provide stability, not so much lift. Similar to the horizontal stabilizer on a plane.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 01:03 AM

moving the foils forward increases the difficulty of tacking.
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
The lack of ability to watch the America's Cup is starting to affect my desire to see any of it. While $8 isn't staggering by any means, I just didn't feel like paying that to see it (partially figuring that it would be available for free moments after I shelled over the $8).

If you want me to pay a few bucks, have a feature presentation put together that compiles the racing action with an inside view from each venue and make it available by subscription at Netflix, or Amazon, etc (where I know I won't have feed reliability issues). I would probably watch the (free) racing and then pay for that to see some inside information on the action.

It's as if our own team kinda gave up on us US schmucks.


+1. My feeling is LE had his run and is done with it. He's hoping BA wins it for merry old England. And we are not schmucks, they are.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 08:45 AM

Someone on SA wrote that he got the next ACWS event (Gothenburg) credited to his AC+ account as compensation for there not being any racing on Sunday in Portsmouth.
I'm kind of hoping that Ainslie wins the AC, Portsmouth would be a great location for the next AC (and its only a few hours travel!).
Anyone else got an email about that?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone on SA wrote that he got the next ACWS event (Gothenburg) credited to his AC+ account as compensation for there not being any racing on Sunday in Portsmouth.
I'm kind of hoping that Ainslie wins the AC, Portsmouth would be a great location for the next AC (and its only a few hours travel!).
Anyone else got an email about that?


That was released in the news a few days ago....Gothenburg should be free for anyone that paid to see Portsmouth (I'm guessing they aren't exactly making a fortune with the paid viewing).
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 03:45 PM

OK, not even a sailboat, but check out this 'foiling' motorcycle!

Dude even surfs with it! Stick with it to the end to see him outrun a huge wave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDi9uFcD7XI&feature=youtu.be
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 04:35 PM

wonder how many bikes he went through to get those takes...
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 06:51 PM

That's hilarious.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
wonder how many bikes he went through to get those takes...


That was exactly my thought. That didn't happen on the first try.
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/03/15 08:03 PM

Something they worked on for two years to get right. There's a how they did it vid out there.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/04/15 02:50 AM

Man... from the name of the video I was hoping to see him time the tube to perfection. Oh well, still impressive. I bet that salt water played havoc on a small gas engine.

-Rob
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/04/15 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
Man... from the name of the video I was hoping to see him time the tube to perfection. Oh well, still impressive. I bet that salt water played havoc on a small gas engine.

-Rob


And the drive chain, sprockets, bearings...etc. And, technically speaking, it's planing - not foiling. ;-)

the way they edited that lead me to believe that big wave at the end choked the engine and the wave got him.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/04/15 03:53 AM

I can promise you, salt water is a hell of a lot easier on it than dune riding. It's like riding through a sand blaster.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/04/15 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I can promise you, salt water is a hell of a lot easier on it than dune riding. It's like riding through a sand blaster.


and all are quite a bit more difficult than my favorite past time... drinking and posting crap on sailing websites.

Or Karl's favorite: hookers & blow
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/05/15 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


Or Karl's favorite: hookers & blow


Blow, then hookers. Get it straight damnit.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/05/15 01:14 PM

my bad... too much "Breaking Bad" binge watching lately...

But I did go cruising last weekend about 10 miles offshore... Single-handing so I didn't want to get too crazy.. Had to outrun a T-storm with some gusty 20 kt breeze but managed okay.

Docking is a bit of a challenge singlehanding, but managed without any gelcoat scars this time..

And I noticed that it's time for new sails... The laminate is pretty much disintegrating leaving only the carbon strings (or black kevlar... can't tell). No crinkle at all when I roll it up. Almost feels like fabric.

dammit... main is almost $6k. There goes my drinking money for the month.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/05/15 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
my bad... too much "Breaking Bad" binge watching lately...

But I did go cruising last weekend about 10 miles offshore... Single-handing so I didn't want to get too crazy.. Had to outrun a T-storm with some gusty 20 kt breeze but managed okay.

Docking is a bit of a challenge singlehanding, but managed without any gelcoat scars this time..

And I noticed that it's time for new sails... The laminate is pretty much disintegrating leaving only the carbon strings (or black kevlar... can't tell). No crinkle at all when I roll it up. Almost feels like fabric.

dammit... main is almost $6k. There goes my drinking money for the month.


Truth be told, it's more than likely just a black tinted dacron scrim.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/05/15 07:24 PM

not that there is a problem with black dacron scrim...

but it is wearing out.

$6k for a carbon radial main (243 sq ft fat head) with epoxy battens... sound reasonable?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/05/15 07:40 PM

poking around on Doyle's fabric selection page, it would appear the type III (woven, film, scrim, film, woven) might be the best overall in terms of stretch and durability?

I'm sure it's heavier, but I'm not a foiling boat so an extra few kilos won't make me look much worse than I am around the cans... And if it lasts 1/3 longer than the type II I think I could justify the cost...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/08/15 10:17 AM

Must read.

Grant Dalton: For love, and money


[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/08/15 10:18 AM

Has the Auld Mug lost its shine?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/08/15 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


Truthfully, though, it was almost impossible to watch in the US by design - so I'm not sure you could say the American's have tuned away. You have to be able to tune in before you can tune out.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/08/15 06:58 PM

With that said, is there anyway we will be able to watch the ACWS on the cheap and easy?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/11/15 01:21 PM

Kingpostgate just won't go away.
Part 1
Part 2

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/13/15 11:21 AM

The Ideal America's Cup

I think Jobson really misses the mark in this article. Trickle down is far from dead and while I'm pretty miffed at not being able to see the current series easily it's hard to deny the foiling madness the last America's Cup ignited in the world of multihulls.

The problem, in my opinion, is all about the money. (isn't it always?). When you have some campaigns with a limitless pile of cash against other teams that spend as much time trying to find sponsorship as they do running their team, the result is always going to be skewed and boring to watch.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/13/15 11:55 AM

yes, but there was the Jamaican bobsled team...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/13/15 01:18 PM

Remember the salary dispute from Spooner requesting $38,000/month to move family to Bermuda? Then the lawsuit against Oracle and then the writ on the AC45?

Turns out he lost his case.
Oracle Team USA win Kiwi sailor dismissal case
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/19/15 08:50 PM

Impact vest earning its money...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/19/15 08:52 PM

meh... just the driver. And quickly/easily replaced I see in that last bit...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/20/15 01:09 PM

ESPN acquires rights to 35th America's Cup

Only thing wrong with this is the defender's own country still can't watch. . . yet
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/20/15 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
ESPN acquires rights to 35th America's Cup

Only thing wrong with this is the defender's own country still can't watch. . . yet


But, by god, we can watch poker and a spelling B on ESPN.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/20/15 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Redtwin
Man... from the name of the video I was hoping to see him time the tube to perfection. Oh well, still impressive. I bet that salt water played havoc on a small gas engine.

It is really cool, and I too was going to mention-
it's not foiling.
Now, lets see him pull a skier!

-Rob


And the drive chain, sprockets, bearings...etc. And, technically speaking, it's planing - not foiling. ;-)

the way they edited that lead me to believe that big wave at the end choked the engine and the wave got him.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/15 08:44 AM

Extreme Sailing circuit moves to foiling GC32s:
http://www.sail-world.com/2015-Extr...-replaced-with-GC32---Video/137773%C2%A0
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/15 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
The Ideal America's Cup

I think Jobson really misses the mark in this article. Trickle down is far from dead and while I'm pretty miffed at not being able to see the current series easily it's hard to deny the foiling madness the last America's Cup ignited in the world of multihulls.

The problem, in my opinion, is all about the money. (isn't it always?). When you have some campaigns with a limitless pile of cash against other teams that spend as much time trying to find sponsorship as they do running their team, the result is always going to be skewed and boring to watch.


Slightly nasally voice????

I agree with very few of his points. Having the gall to compare himself to Cronkite, and in the same breath use Cronkite's image to disparage the event that put him (Jobson) on the map and continues to afford him a career, is simply astounding.

He was way over his head during the live broadcasts in SF. Have the decency to stay in the booth and give the intros and outtros. Leave the sailing coverage for people who are current.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/15 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by brucat



I agree with very few of his points. Having the gall to compare himself to Cronkite, and in the same breath use Cronkite's image to disparage the event that put him (Jobson) on the map and continues to afford him a career, is simply astounding.

He was way over his head during the live broadcasts in SF. Have the decency to stay in the booth and give the intros and outtros. Leave the sailing coverage for people who are current.

Mike


I agree, Gary is a tool.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/15 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat



I agree with very few of his points. Having the gall to compare himself to Cronkite, and in the same breath use Cronkite's image to disparage the event that put him (Jobson) on the map and continues to afford him a career, is simply astounding.

He was way over his head during the live broadcasts in SF. Have the decency to stay in the booth and give the intros and outtros. Leave the sailing coverage for people who are current.

Mike


I agree, Gary is a tool.


GJ was making some correct calls by the end of ac34. Unfortunately he talks like a 6th grader reading a report to the class. The extreme sailing series has a woman with a nice English accent as a co-anchor. Seems like a no brainer, but the ac guys haven't figured that one out yet.

Why isn't there a thread about the little cup? It's in September.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/15 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
I agree, Gary is a tool.


Yes, it did sound as if he was announcing a high-school football game and couldn't remember the players at times...

But he's managed to wring a career out of that so I guess props to him for being smart enough to do so.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/27/15 02:37 PM

A continuing failure from ACEA to get this right.
All you need to know to follow Round 2 this weekend

How to Watch Around the World

For Americas Cup fans around the world, there are a number of different ways to follow the high-octane racing in Gothenburg. Many of the international television broadcast rights holders will show live racing Saturday and Sunday, others will have the highlight show. Networks like BT Sport (UK), Canal+ (FRA), CCTV5+ (CHN) and FOX Sports (AUS) are among those to show live racing. NBC/NBCSN in the US will show highlights.

For live content on the AC App for mobile devices, the following territorial restrictions apply:

1) No Live Feed or Live Audio, but with On-Board Cameras and second screen experience
United Kingdom and Ireland, Australia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela

2) No Live Feed or Live Audio and No On-Board Cameras
France and Monaco

Sweden:
TV12 & TV4 Play
August 29 12:30pm 14:30pm
August 30 1:00pm 3:00pm
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App

UK and Ireland:
BT Sport Europe, live, August 29, 11:30
BT Sport Europe, live, August 30, 11:30
Repeats on BT Sport 1 and BT Sport 2, check local listings
BBC Red Button - Highlights, August 31, 19:30
Also second screen experience available live for mobile devices on the AC App (no live race feed).

Bermuda:
ZFB Live on Saturday and Sunday
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App

USA:
NBC Sport Channel Sept 4 at 10pm (Pacific Time)
Additional broadcast on NBC regional affiliate channels to be confirmed.
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App

China:
August 29 23:30pm (Beijing time)
August 30 22:30pm (Beijing time)
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App

Australia:
Broadcast times on Fox Sports TBC
Also second screen (only) live on the AC App

France, Monaco, Andorra, French-speaking Switzerland, Mauritius, DOMTOM and sub-Saharan Africa (not South Africa):
Live for both days on Canal+ Dcal: 1100 1230 GMT.
Repeat on Canal+ Sport 29.08: 2214 2344 GMT; 30.08: 1710 1840 GMT
No live app and no second screen experience in France/Monaco

Germany:
Live for mobile devices on the AC App

Italy:
Live for mobile devices on the AC App

Japan:
Live for mobile devices on the AC App

New Zealand:
Live for mobile devices on the AC App

Poland:
Saturday, 29/08 Canal+ Sport2, 13:00
Sunday, 30/08 Canal+ Sport, 13:00
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App
Central and South America & Caribbean:
Please note all times are Eastern Standard Time (New York Time)
ESPN Brazil Mon, Sept 14 at 4 pm
ESPN+ Brazil Wed, Sept 16 at 10 am
ESPN Caribbean Wed, Sept 16 at 1 pm (Also live for mobile devices on the AC app)
ESPN3 Latin North Thu, Sept 17 at 11 am
Also second screen experience available live for mobile devices on the AC App (no live race feed).

Portugal:
SPORT TV will broadcast both races live.
Sat 29/08 12:00 SPORT.TV2 Live
Sun 30/08 12:00 SPORT.TV2 Live
(All Portuguese time)
Also live for mobile devices on the AC App
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/27/15 07:43 PM

WTF,

Sub-Sahara Africa can get live broadcast of the AC but sitting in the good ole US of A, I have to watch HIGHLIGHTS?

Who is the clown car captain of this sh*t show?
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
WTF,

Sub-Sahara Africa can get live broadcast of the AC but sitting in the good ole US of A, I have to watch HIGHLIGHTS?

Who is the clown car captain of this sh*t show?


LOL, before I saw your post I was going to say the same about Poland.

Larry Ellison have you lost your F$$king mind?
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 12:59 AM

Clearly it's NBCSN (NBS Sports Network) who is screwing the success of the AC. NBCSN acquired the US rights back in February but have chosen to bury the AC by giving us only poorly presented highlights on the Tuesday following the events. They choose to show the Tour de France and NASCAR. I scoured their website to find a "contact us" link to complain but could not find anything. I wrote to Gary Jobson and he wrote back saying tersely, " I am not part of it." Something's going on behind the scenes on this one.

Sad, given the wild popularity of AC34.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 11:54 AM

Maybe Gary read our comments?

Mike
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Clearly it's NBCSN (NBS Sports Network) who is screwing the success of the AC. NBCSN acquired the US rights back in February but have chosen to bury the AC by giving us only poorly presented highlights on the Tuesday following the events. They choose to show the Tour de France and NASCAR. I scoured their website to find a "contact us" link to complain but could not find anything. I wrote to Gary Jobson and he wrote back saying tersely, " I am not part of it." Something's going on behind the scenes on this one.

Sad, given the wild popularity of AC34.


When you look at how this whole thing has been managed I doubt NBCSN could be at fault.

By the way, how do you get "tersely" from GJ comment? Sounds factual and straight to the point.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Maybe Gary read our comments?

Mike


Ha! Good one, oh wait are you being serious?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 01:53 PM

Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 04:15 PM

On September 19 Gary Jobson will be the keynote speaker at our annual black tie banquet for Dunedin Youth Sailing here in Dunedin, FL. I'll try to ask him publicly why the America's Cup will not be televised live in the USA. I know it's not his fault but I'd like to get his take on the politics of it all.

You're all welcome to come. Just put up the $80 for dinner and put on your tuxedo.
And shoes grin

Attached picture DYSA banquet D.jpg
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/28/15 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat
Maybe Gary read our comments?

Mike


Ha! Good one, oh wait are you being serious?


Not really, but you literally never know who's looking here (or any open forum for that matter).

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 11:02 AM

More puzzling decision making from America's Cup organisers

Can someone explain how this helps deliver value to America's Cup event sponsors, or the team sponsors or the audience?

Please put you hand up if you think this is good business practice?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 01:59 PM

I honestly unsubscribed from my first Youtube subscribed channel ever yesterday with TheAmericasCup. The drivel they are posting is worthless. I'm baffled why they wouldn't even post week old or months old racing? The "highlights" are about 1 minute 40 seconds of music and quick shots of the grounds and people and about 20 seconds of racing team centric stuff that has nothing to do with boating. Hell, one of them I watched yesterday, hoping to see some racing, showed some team new zealand guys playing rugby inside one of their tents. Whatever they are doing with the available media for this event here in the US is absolutely awful. It's so bad that it must be intentional.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 02:12 PM

perhaps their plan is to drive those folks with the money to show up in person (and drop serious coin) to watch the events?

The rest of us can eat .... uh, cake?

Perhaps the organizers finally admitted to themselves they can't make this profitable bringing it to the (cheapskate) masses, so they'll change course and focus the effort on hobknobbing with the uber-wealthy (who could possibly put a team together sometime in the future?)

For the rest of us who still look for carbon/foil porn there is always the C-class cup...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 03:50 PM

Speaking of sponsor fulfillment and lessons learned...

I was in the 99 restaurant in Newport (over by the rotary) a few weeks ago, and noticed a beautiful, framed image from the Newport stopover during the last ACWS. The picture is of a fleet race start, and was clearly taken after Thursday, because ETNZ had a lot of clear panels on the wing.

At the time, I wondered why they didn't have a spare wing for each team, or at least the properly branded covers (they damaged their wing during the capsize and day-long righting attempts).

They took necessary panels from the wing of the Red Bull boat which was there for audiences to see up close ashore, stripped the Red Bull branded covers, and re-covered with clear skins.

As this mishap occurred on Thursday, their sponsors missed out on three full days (out of four) of televised coverage!!! Not to mention, eons worth of images (how many decades worth of AC pictures do we see walking around in Newport?).

Do you think they learned anything from that?

Mike
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 05:04 PM

The full replay file is being treated like private property. It would be hard to capture from a phone live during the event too. Then after the event it goes to the editing room.
Videos of people talking about the race abound, but i am mostly interested in seeing the races in full.
The "takeaway" is a very successful sales technique, but this seems like they are protecting their property from interested parties.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I honestly unsubscribed from my first Youtube subscribed channel ever yesterday with TheAmericasCup. The drivel they are posting is worthless. I'm baffled why they wouldn't even post week old or months old racing? The "highlights" are about 1 minute 40 seconds of music and quick shots of the grounds and people and about 20 seconds of racing team centric stuff that has nothing to do with boating. Hell, one of them I watched yesterday, hoping to see some racing, showed some team new zealand guys playing rugby inside one of their tents. Whatever they are doing with the available media for this event here in the US is absolutely awful. It's so bad that it must be intentional.


Agree 100%. I questioned them on their coverage intent on numerous of their FB posts, to no avail. The move to Bermuda was bad for the U.S., but the coverage, so far, is like they are trying to piss off their North American viewers...and it's working. This (AC45) is supposed to be the bait, and their screwing it up.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 09:02 PM

Did you notice that the Tuesday night recap has been dropped from NBC-SN? There is some generic ACWS show scheduled for Saturday at 1:00 a.m. Yes, that's AM, middle of the night!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Did you notice that the Tuesday night recap has been dropped from NBC-SN? There is some generic ACWS show scheduled for Saturday at 1:00 a.m. Yes, that's AM, middle of the night!


there has to be some sort of behind the scenes contract drama that has lead to this.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 09:29 PM

Now that is the first thing I've read here that makes any sense. None of them care about us or building an audience at this point. ACEA simply values their product differently than the media outlets, plain and simple.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 09:33 PM

Reading back on the press releases with the light of the current situation shining on it, I wonder if the joint venture that took place with a nod toward the other "very desirable sponsors" failed to realize the "very desirable sponsors" so NBC ends up with all the rights and no funding to do anything with them. I'm seriously spit-balling here but suppose NBC didn't get what they had expected in return but still held the rights. The AC would either have to refund them somehow (which would look terrible even if they had the budget to do it) or the AC would have to somehow live with the fact that they can't publicly broadcast anything within the US...one might, say, develop a pay-per-view mobile app that is probably priced just to try and recoup its development costs or charges just enough that it doesn't infringe on the previously mentioned rights. This might also help to explain why the computer app was curiously blocked from receiving the broadcast in the last round if it had something to do with overlapping with those NBC rights....it's about the only thing that I can see making sense. Clearly NBC's business model for broadcasting the cup included external factors based on the following detail in the press release from February.

Quote
The network did not pay a rights fee in the last deal, and while terms of this latest deal were not released, Jon Miller, president of programming for NBC and NBC Sports Group, said it was a different deal than we did last time.

This is more of a joint venture, Miller said.

He added that the Americas Cup Event Authority, which is organizing the event, has a good bank of sponsors that theyre bringing as well, something Miller said made acquiring the rights very desirable.

- See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...-35th-americas-cup/#sthash.tItRmwbp.dpuf
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/31/15 10:34 PM

Strange thing is that the website broadcast incl replays aren't available anywhere, including countries which have no broadcast agreement with the AC.
I am surprised there has not been any kind of statement regarding the poor coverage since every FB post is full of complaints.
Posted By: coralreefer

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/01/15 03:14 AM

I agree with everyone else, what is happening is simply a shame.

The opportunities lost are immeasurable. Being from New England, I'm a lifetime AC fan, and when they went to Multi-hulls for the 34th Cup I was all in. I had just decided to get into sailing the year before when I bought my first Hobie 16. I made my vacation plans so I could go to the ACWS in Newport and was there to watch from the fort the entire weekend. What I thought was great, was the Demonstration event that the F18 boats put on in front of the crowed both days. It was great to watch them go at it and warm up the crowd. I could not wait to get racing myself!!!

When I found out the US Multi-Hull Championship for the Alter Trophy was going to be raced on Hobie 16s and in front of the AC Crowd in San Fransisco, I was going no matter what. What an opportunity of a lifetime.

Few will ever have this experience:

[Linked Image]

After the 34th was over I was excited for what could be next, only to be disappointed time and again. What a shame it is that the 35th cup is not even in the US, and not being used as a springboard to get more Americans into sailing.

Then to find out you cold not even watch the ACWS live, inconceivable.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/01/15 02:54 PM

Okay, someone set up a crowd-funding account to send Jake and a couple of drones to Bermuda and he can live-stream the races for us.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/01/15 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Strange thing is that the website broadcast incl replays aren't available anywhere, including countries which have no broadcast agreement with the AC.
I am surprised there has not been any kind of statement regarding the poor coverage since every FB post is full of complaints.


To put this in context, our US Formula 18 National Championship has had significantly better publicly available coverage than what we can get from the ACWS.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/02/15 02:22 PM

sure, but Louis Vitton did not sponsor the US Formula 18 Nationals...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/02/15 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
sure, but Louis Vitton did not sponsor the US Formula 18 Nationals...


Did anyone ask them to?

We need to do a better job of getting this type of stuff out there. My "coverage" here during this year's Alter Cup was at least timely, which blew away US Sailing's coverage, at least using that metric.

But, we've been doing web coverage very well for a very long time. Unfortunately, so far below the radar that no one outside of our universe knows about it, or believes that it's possible.

Maybe a big-ticket sponsor wouldn't be so hard to land if we approach (and value) it differently?

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/02/15 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by brucat

Maybe a big-ticket sponsor wouldn't be so hard to land if we approach (and value) it differently?

Mike


What would you posit as the return for that large investment? An audience of??? spending how much on said products?

Personally, I think LV has accepted their business model as successful. There's no way the commonfolk could afford that product, so why the heck should LV care about the unwashed masses getting entertained?

If Bermuda sells out and the VIP tent is stacked with Ritchy Rich folk, then LV wins.

So, events that target a lower socioeconomic audience probably need to go after 3M or whomever makes duct tape.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/07/15 04:06 PM

Did anyone see the NBC-SN recap that was originally scheduled for Tuesday night at ten, then switched to Saturday at 1:00 am?

In the Tampa Verizon market it showed on their schedule on Friday but never played on Saturday in the wee hours. Did anyone see a Gothenburg recap? Has NBC dropped the ACWC altogether?

The YouTube from Gothenburg is awful.
Posted By: dartfast

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/07/15 05:26 PM

Yes Dave, thanks to your info about the time change from Tuesday to Sat. I was able to record the recap @ 1 am Sat morning Verizon. Still have it on the VCR but wouldn't know how to get it to you. It was pretty good with the highlights around each mark and some interactions between marks. The first couple of races had a better wind and were exciting on the foils. Had trouble with the penalty on Oracle at the start didn't look like one to me.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/07/15 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Did anyone see the NBC-SN recap that was originally scheduled for Tuesday night at ten, then switched to Saturday at 1:00 am?

In the Tampa Verizon market it showed on their schedule on Friday but never played on Saturday in the wee hours. Did anyone see a Gothenburg recap? Has NBC dropped the ACWC altogether?

The YouTube from Gothenburg is awful.


I got to see it, I watched it - it was terrible. It was so chopped up the second some drama started to develop in the fleet (usually what they WEREN'T talking about) it cut to the end of the race or something. Also, it wasn't even available in HD. It was very dumbed and watered down and not worth watching.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/07/15 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by dartfast
Yes Dave, thanks to your info about the time change from Tuesday to Sat. I was able to record the recap @ 1 am Sat morning Verizon. Still have it on the VCR but wouldn't know how to get it to you. It was pretty good with the highlights around each mark and some interactions between marks. The first couple of races had a better wind and were exciting on the foils. Had trouble with the penalty on Oracle at the start didn't look like one to me.


They never even bothered to explain what the penalties were for both New Zealand and Oracle during that start. I didn't see anything obvious on part of either team. Bah..
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/08/15 12:24 AM

Oracle prepares for two-boat testing
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/10/15 01:03 AM

And some more of this. Legal
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/11/15 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by catman
And some more of this. Legal


...because, really, what fun would the AC be without more of this???

That article does prove what I've observed for years. There's little to no money (at any level) in race management, but judges are treated quite well.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/15/15 08:37 PM

If you can't watch it on TV then head to Chicago.

"Chicago made maritime history today with Lake Michigan chosen as the first freshwater venue to host Americas Cup racing in the events 164-year history.

The Louis Vuitton Americas Cup World Series Chicago, a qualifying event for the 2017 Americas Cup in Bermuda, will take place at Navy Pier from June 10 12."


More here.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/15/15 10:23 PM

Interesting. I guess New York is out?

Mike
Posted By: catman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/15/15 11:16 PM

What happened to to the poll function. Just wondering who gives a f$$k about this.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/15/15 11:23 PM

Now that the LV-AC will be in the USA do you think NBC Sports will step up and show it?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/15/15 11:51 PM

Lots of things happen in the US that aren't televised. It's all about ratings (aka money).

Mike
Posted By: Jamie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 09/18/15 08:20 PM

Finally, in my backyard. Been to San Diego (92), New Zealand (00) and San Francisco (13). Too bad it is just a weekend; and of course, in the Windy City, where the only thing that blows are politicians, it will be a crap shoot if there is good foiling wind or not. At that time of season and the weather pattern for the last 5+ years, it is probably 50/50 SE at 13 knots. But 18-20 out of the N-NE and then move the course outside of the breakwall and that would be really cool.

Here nor there, it's nice to have a opportunity to watch without a cut-up highlight show that makes you wonder what the hell happened in the 5-10 minutes they keep cutting out. Nothing like cramming four races into 40-42 minutes of coverage. Could they have had any more commercials?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/05/15 09:49 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 02:32 PM

Luna Rossa's Sirena joins Emirates Team NZ
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 02:39 PM

Video of BAR's new AC boat.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 04:01 PM

The ACWS continues in Bermuda on October 16-18. "Two 25 minute races are scheduled per day to fit with 90 minutes for a TV show produced by Americas Cup TV (ACTV). It will be broadcast globally."

In the USA NBS Sports Network has their show scheduled for Sunday, October 18 at 2:00 pm for 90 minutes. Maybe this time we will get to see the whole thing.

The Sunday afternoon TV broadcast will begin just a few minutes after the last race has ended. That's nearly live!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Video of BAR's new AC boat.


Wow, not only is that graphics "package" extremely unattractive, it shows that zero effort went into its design. It's like someone copied the LR logo, pasted it onto the wing, and just pitched it!

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by brucat


Wow, not only is that graphics "package" extremely unattractive, it shows that zero effort went into its design. It's like someone copied the LR logo, pasted it onto the wing, and just pitched it!

Mike


Well...as a graphics guy - they're kinda stuck with that oval being part of the logo and there isn't THAT much you can do with it other than surround it with some swooshes and swipes. It might just be only a minimal, cost effective, graphics package on a boat that is expected to be pushed to the point that it gets damaged and/or has a second round of modifications already planned. I thought the other things Land Rover has done on the boats looked pretty sharp.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 08:40 PM

^^ What he said. Big companies have all sort of restrictions on the use of their logos to protect the value of the branding. Having said that rotate it another 70 degrees, triple the size and have it span the hull, jib and wing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/06/15 08:56 PM

This boat is development and will be replaced. Take a look at that front beam, it would be better describe as a wing, or maybe "beam-a-wing"
BAR's different boats
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/07/15 02:19 AM

I'm not buying that, and not just because I've had sponsors (yes, mine were just placed on as plain logos, so I realize that there is some amount of pot and kettle here). But, looking at the other recent teams, and the fact that the LR name is used on the boat without the oval, they could have done something (anything) to make that look better.

Mike
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/08/15 07:31 AM

The Land Rover name maybe on the hull without the oval, but it is corporate (bonnet) font!!! He who pays the bills calls the shots.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/11/15 02:36 AM

Dust off the 72s Larry.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/12/15 04:19 PM

freakin' hilarious

Go Larry!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/12/15 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
freakin' hilarious

Go Larry!


I saw that a couple of months ago - it should be no surprise that one of the guys running the race is in marketing. That's pretty smart.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/13/15 08:52 PM

They should call out the Frenchies... This is their sort of thing.

The Texel champs, too!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/13/15 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
They should call out the Frenchies... This is their sort of thing.

The Texel champs, too!


Texel... please! That's a freaking beach party with a little sailing thrown in to break up the day. The archipelago boys and girls are who they want, they want people that are totally into pain and misery.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/14/15 12:45 PM

I'll admit to being in a foul mood this morning, but what was funny or well done about that R2AK video?

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/14/15 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I'll admit to being in a foul mood this morning, but what was funny or well done about that R2AK video?

Mike


First and foremost it was understated showcasing the true spirit of the event which I felt was captured well which is not something that's easy to do when you try to do it on purpose. It's also not an event for narcissistic douche bags and to call out the king of all narcissistic douche bags was humorous to me. That's why I found it well done and funny, granted I'm probably in the minority with that opinion.

Have a grumpy day.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/14/15 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram


First and foremost it was understated showcasing the true spirit of the event which I felt was captured well which is not something that's easy to do when you try to do it on purpose. It's also not an event for narcissistic douche bags and to call out the king of all narcissistic douche bags was humorous to me. That's why I found it well done and funny, granted I'm probably in the minority with that opinion.

Have a grumpy day.


+1!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/15/15 12:29 PM

Thanks Ding. Strangely, that made me laugh...

Personally, I think they should have ended with Kayak Guy.

Mike
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/15/15 06:41 PM

The steak knife thing is still funny to me. paddling all the way thru the R2AK is almost unbelievable in this day and age.
On the subject of graphics, one of the hats i wear;
This is an elegant graphic in my opinion. Not only a nice swoop, but it makes an S. The first letter of their name.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 02:07 PM

The Sharing of a Rivalry

Refreshing read.

Spithill remains unimpressed. I was really disappointed and frustrated, because this is a guy who has been incredibly loyal, he said of Barker. The guy doesnt have an ego. Hes doing everything he can, and O.K., if a team wants to go a certain way, thats fine. But I would have expected his team to send him out the right way.

If he wants to join another team, no problem, but all the best, thanks for your commitment and what you ultimately did for your country. So that was really sad in my view.


. . .I tell you who brokered Deans situation: It was Larry, not me, said Coutts, . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 02:10 PM





Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 02:16 PM

Official how to watch

"Live on Sunday w/ 1hr delay"

What the marketing team meant to say "It ain't live you smuck, you'll get it an hour later when you already know who won"
Posted By: PL3

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 04:55 PM

14:00 local
boats towed to course
hundreds of spectator boats
helicopter is up
Jack Point S*** for wind
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by PL3
14:00 local
boats towed to course
hundreds of spectator boats
helicopter is up
Jack Point **** for wind



We're not going to see any racing until Sunday after the racing so if you're going to narrate please start with "Spoiler Alert". I'd like to not know the outcome before I watch.

Hmmmm....not very likely, I guess.
Posted By: PL3

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 05:17 PM

http://www.tv4play.se/sport/3210475
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/16/15 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by PL3
14:00 local
boats towed to course
hundreds of spectator boats
helicopter is up
Jack Point S*** for wind


Thanks. Keep 'em coming.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/17/15 12:35 PM

Light rain, light wind. Forecast is crap.
Need 6 knots to race.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/17/15 05:05 PM

Race delayed. No wind.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/17/15 07:22 PM

Racing abandoned.
Sunday link
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 05:40 PM

judge boat is an idiot and needs his butt whup
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 05:46 PM

I missed it...caught the last second of the replay. What happened?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
judge boat is an idiot and needs his butt whup

Guess someone's contract isn't getting renewed.
Is their AC45 still legal after losing all that weight?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 06:44 PM

Notice he put the code 0 back on the boat for the weight for the third race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 09:18 PM

Haven't seen what led up/caused it, but here are some replays...

http://bernews.com/2015/10/videos-artemis-crashes-umpire-boat/

Mike
Posted By: PL3

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/18/15 10:23 PM

Things were a lot faster, tighter and closer than the vid shows, both were manuevering and looking for an out.
Not a small zodiac, it was very loud.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/19/15 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by PL3
Things were a lot faster, tighter and closer than the vid shows, both were manuevering and looking for an out.
Not a small zodiac, it was very loud.


Pretty obvious that is not somewhere a non race boat should have been. I'm just glad nobody got hurt or killed. That could've been way worse. The focus and control that Nathan and team showed was incredible. Tamed the adrenaline and made it work for them.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/19/15 06:25 PM

Agreed. When I first saw the crossbar hit the console, I thought, they're lucky to be alive...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/18/15 01:56 PM

Good informative piece.
Taking a sneaky peek at Land Rover BAR and Oracle Team USAs latest boats
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/30/15 08:15 PM

Oh no!!! It's happened! The reasoning behind the inboard foils and that might not have been enough...ouch. Reports are coming in but it looks like Cammas has at least partially severed his foot when he got hit by the rudder of their training boat, a GC32. eek

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sports/780941/america-cup-skipper-evers-foot
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 12:12 AM

How do you 'hit the rudder blade' with your foot while sailing? Did he fall overboard and get run over?

My kid did that once on my Hobie 18 on a fast reach, missed his trap hook and fell off. The rudder blade hit is thigh so hard I was sure it was broken, but it wasn't, just left a hell of a bruise (on his thigh, not the rudder!).

His mother was not impressed to say the least!
Posted By: A. Bourgault

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 12:20 PM

Yes, he fell overboard.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 01:09 PM

Reports state"...open fracture at the bottom of the right tibia."

OMG! I've broken a lot of bones but to be in the water and mutilated like that...OMG, unimaginable.

Major, major sympathies go out to him.

It happened on a GC32, btw.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 02:01 PM

kind of like getting hit with a propeller I would imagine... Not fun to say the least and then someone has to get him out of the water quickly before the "fun" starts (que Jaws music).

But I figure the chase boats were probably on him before he even had to signal for them...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 02:18 PM

Yeeeouch! This doesn't help our image (or does it???).

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 02:38 PM

carnage seems to encourage participation in skateboarding and BMX type bikes... do a Youtube search on all the skateboarders losing their nutz on railings...
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 03:13 PM

Double break of the tibia and fibia. Out of surgery and working to recover.
https://www.americascup.com/en/news/2089_Franck-Cammas-recovering-after-accident.html
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/01/15 07:49 PM

good news, indeed. Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery to one of the true rock-stars.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/02/15 02:50 AM

Oy, loses the Olympic path too. Yuck.

Mike
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 12/22/15 09:05 PM

New York in May!

Toulon, France in September

February 27-28 in Muscat, Oman
May 7-8 in New York, USA
June 11-12 in Chicago, USA
July 23-24 in Portsmouth, England
September 10-11 in Toulon, France

Two additional events are expected: one in Asia in November 2016; and all six competitors have now unanimously agreed to add an additional Louis Vuitton Americas Cup World Series regatta in the first quarter of 2017.


Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/01/16 09:05 PM

Team BAR really flying on their Nacra 20s
https://www.instagram.com/p/BBP3iTnmNXJ/
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/02/16 02:42 PM

I thought it was a photoshop at first because of the weird way the main looked. But then I realized there was another FCS20 behind the airborne one.

Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/06/16 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Double break of the tibia and fibia. Out of surgery and working to recover.
https://www.americascup.com/en/news/2089_Franck-Cammas-recovering-after-accident.html


I realize this post was from ~ 2 months ago;
and I realize that even in the Article linked,
they misspelled the terms of the bones in the leg.

It's: Tibia, and Fibula; not tibia, fibia- a common mispronunciation, and misspelling.

What a way to break your leg!
I'm glad he's recovering well.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/16 12:34 PM

New news cycle this morning is claiming that Oracle was cheating in their win over NZ in the last cup because they were "pumping" the main in and out effectively flapping it and making the boat go faster.

Does anyone in their RIGHT mind think that A) you could physically flap this gigantic wing fast enough, with human power, to improve the boat speed, and B) that you could do it and take advantage of it at 40 knots? That's ridiculous! Imagine if you tried to flap your Formula 18 sail while moving at full speed. That won't do anything but slow you down and we're barely capable of going over 15.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/...udio/bruce-knecht-larry-williams-oracle/

http://www.newshub.co.nz/sport/clai...in-americas-cup-2016030411#axzz41w96SPA0
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/16 01:14 PM

Pumping the main? Remember when NZ nearly capsized in San Francisco? With multiple guys grinding hydraulic pumps they did not have enough pressure to complete even a single tack! How could it ever be possible to pump that giant rigid wing?

Pumping is big in Lasers (forbidden) and RSX (allowed). This is probably some NZ Laser sailor with a chip on both shoulders about Oracle winning AC34.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/16 03:24 PM

It's reportedly an American Journalist, Bruce Knecht, who has made the claim. Granted, it's separated by 2 degrees - the article says he said it.

edit; there's also a video of him talking about it. Something's not right there - They have to be getting some terminology confused. There's no way they were pumping the main at speed to do what he claims; "to get the boat on it's foils". They can foil upwind at anytime by just canting the foil but didn't do so very often because the foil born configuration allowed the boat to side slip too much. Oracle seemed to foot and lightly foil upwind when they saw a shift or pressure on the other side of the course that they wanted to get to. They could obviously foil easily downwind. It is nonsensical.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/16 08:29 PM

Finally, it took them two days to get us some video of the capsize.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/23/16 08:43 PM

WOW!! This has a sphincter factor of 10.0!
Watch the video first and then read about it here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/16 01:13 PM

Good stuff.
Part 1: AC50 building program

That point is lost on many people, says Smyth. If we had too rigid a measurement protocol the measurers would be disappearing up their own backsides trying to accurately check the boats."

Part 2: AC50 construction uncovered - Wings and Costs

Limiting the boards to just four will be dangerous. The teams cant even build an identical spare without sacrificing a card they are supposed to repair them when they are broken. I think it is a glaring anomaly, Smyth explains.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/16 02:15 AM

Awesome day in Chicago. Both NZ and Oracle capsize!

Slingsby's take

[Linked Image]

Capsize video

and Oracle

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/16 07:47 AM

Colbert took a ride on the AC45 laugh



Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/16 07:50 AM

[quote=P.M.]Awesome day in Chicago. Both NZ and Oracle capsize!


[Linked Image]
Lol, That is my new favorite AC pic!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/16 01:12 PM

Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/16 06:10 PM

wow. upwind foil tacking. That's going to make for some exciting racing...BIG chance for mistakes, big speed, big changes.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/25/16 06:30 PM

And Jobson will still call it "lee bow maneuver"
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 08/26/16 08:49 PM

and Oracle pulls it off a couple of days later. Here's the video.

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/27/16 09:50 PM

Checkout this video from the kiwis, going dead downwind at something like 30kts.
It's passing those yachts as if they're anchored!

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/28/16 04:08 PM

we used to have cats and dogs..... in 2016.... what do you call THAT.... It is positively alien to the sailing world!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/28/16 09:13 PM

awesome!
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/28/16 11:10 PM

Mark, Not really so alien anymore. Foiling is flooding into sailing faster than the switch to: Marconi rigs, fiberglass hulls, aluminum masts, mylar sails, spinnakers on cats, etc., etc. It is available on more and more boats and when the UFO comes out next year it will be the equivalent of the Laser for foiling due to its ease of use and low price. In ten years it (sail foiling) will be common.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/29/16 02:01 AM

Well predicting the future is always dicey...I am not so sure how much market penetration foiling will experience. I am not sold on the foiling laser for instance (grin).... Better does not mean popular... for example....I would have predicted that carbon masts, (Nacra 20, Tornado, A cats monohulls proved the point.., AND would have become the defacto standard on modern performance beach cats over the last 10 years... yet. alu wing masts replaced alu teardrop masts on F18s and F16s.


You can go racing on anything that gets a loyal group of fans... See Hobie Waves.... Hell, I saw an Aquacat fleet in MD about 5 years ago going racing (well sort of racing). It seems to be difficult to build a performance fleet in any small sail boat.... The A class proved that foiling was possible under their rules 5 years ago... yet half the boats remain floating and the Class is running a survey in 2016 about what to do with the cat and dog issue at championship events. Just ask RSX how that goes in the states for adults... or the 29ner in the states for juniors its been 15 years for the 29ners... So... just because boats fly does not mean that a strong class will emerge and thus be "normal sailing boats". (I bet that more new Hobie 16s are purchased by unique owners then Nacra 17s in North America... just like waverunners eclipse jet ski's. being more challenging does not mean popularity)

In 2016... I bet more people have seen the Flying Cup boats and Flying Kite boards, likely on TV.... Both look alien. One is unobtanium and the other is a cool toy. My buddy is on the build list for a Waszp.....because its a cheap cool toy for the handful of times the breeze is up... the UFO could fill the less athletic/limber niche.... but still a single purpose toy. If these two boats remain at the "cool toy" level of interest... 10 years down the road... flying boats will still be pretty rare on the water and still "alien and mostly found on TV... not your local pond OR at any of the major boat shows.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/31/16 01:16 PM

Good points, Mark. I'm leaning a bit toward the UFO myself as it appears to be more stable in non-foiling mode (which is likely 85% of the time). Kind of like a little 14 foot cat...

As I get older and fewer people willing to put up with me on a boat, I see the attraction to singlehanders. If this UFO is reasonable in terms of (wo)man-handling on the beach/car, and doesn't require an unreasonable amount of setup/breakdown, it could serve folks like me rather well.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: 35th America's Cup - 10/31/16 11:21 PM

Mark, I don't know what you mean by referring to the UFO as a single purpose toy. It is more versatile than most little boats as it can do anything they can do AND foil when the wind comes up a bit. Jay, the UFO is only 9' long. At Foiling week I tried the Stunt 9 or S9 which IS 14' long. It features two Moth like main T foils but at $22K I decided that you may as well pay another $3K and get an Exploder A Class cat. The UFO is designed specifically to make foiling as easy as possible for the sailor. That means the minimum in size and weight to handle for a sailor up to 180 pounds. It means being able to raise the foils in the boat so that it can be easily cat traxed in and out of the water or even pulled up on a beach or a ramp like a standard beach cat (although this is a tunnel-hulled dinghy). It can be easily car topped and set-up is quick and easy. They are aiming for a $9K price which is a lot for a little boat but cheap for a foiler. It would be a great replacement for the thousands of old, worn out Lasers and Sunfishes across the land - the foiling ability is just the exciting "but wait, there's more"!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/01/16 03:56 AM

Wow, that is a great first hand report Mike. I hope the Clark's do hit a grand slam with this boat... I am not sure the better mouse trap will win out... Marketing boats in this day and age seem to be extremely challenging. Ha... the irony of the multihull world considering the moving to single handed foilers.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/01/16 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Mark, Not really so alien anymore. Foiling is flooding into sailing faster than the switch to: Marconi rigs, fiberglass hulls, aluminum masts, mylar sails, spinnakers on cats, etc., etc. It is available on more and more boats and when the UFO comes out next year it will be the equivalent of the Laser for foiling due to its ease of use and low price. In ten years it (sail foiling) will be common.


Foiling is actually moving pretty slowly, as shown by the simple numbers. Apart from the fact that the first foilers were about 55 years ago and the Trifoiler was around 20+ years ago, the "modern" foilers have been around for about 15 years. There have been about 100 Flying Phantoms, around 700 Moths, a bunch of A Class and a few others sold in that time. Say 1400 boats - that's about as many new foilers as there have been new 420 dinghies in the same period, and far fewer than new RS Fevas. Formula 18s alone have sold over 700 boats in the same period, and a bunch of dinghies are more popular than the F18. Hell, something like 900 Beneteau 40.7s and a similar number of Lagoon 380s and Benny 36.7s have been sold during a similar period.

Compare that to the hundreds of thousands of windsurfers sold in a similar timeframe, the 30,000++ dinghies sold each year in the '60s, or the 1100 RS Aero dinghies sold in about two and a half years and we can see that foiling, while loads of fun, isn't really showing much sign of becoming a really popular part of the sport. That's fine - lots of small niches are fantastic. It's just a worry when so many people are hyping one small niche as if it's going to really help to revive the sport, especially when by implication they are denigrating the rest of sailing.


On a different note - when the UFO wasn't foiling, how fast was it? It's a cool idea, but from a quick look it's hard to see it being quick in light stuff, since once off the foils it is basically a very short cat.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/01/16 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by garda

On a different note - when the UFO wasn't foiling, how fast was it? It's a cool idea, but from a quick look it's hard to see it being quick in light stuff, since once off the foils it is basically a very short cat.


I would almost guess they'd be about the same speed as a non-planing windsurfer of the same length? Maybe a bit slower depending on the sail size?

I would ask if the boat can sail a W/L course without foiling or would it be better served with a triangular course like the non-spin boats?

But that price-point and ease of use certainly gets my attention. How hard is it to foil? Is it constant weight/sail/tiller movement like the Wazp or A-foiler?
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/03/16 01:52 AM

Hmmm, could be. That will make it interesting in places with fluky and often light winds, and basically impossible to handicap.

It's interesting to see that SCHRS has reduced the foiling penalty to 4% - that's a much smaller boost in performance than the hype had said. It fits in with the foilers being beaten over the line at Texel. Obviously the Moth has picked up vastly more pace than that, but the Moth is arguably a very special case that just fits into the right corner for foiling in several ways.

It's also interesting to see that SCHRS is recommending special classes for foilers. The fact that they don't seem to have the claimed speed advantage, and that they may have to race separately, may mean that they won't be the future as some claim.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/03/16 03:26 AM

Quote
The fact that they don't seem to have the claimed speed advantage, and that they may have to race separately, may mean that they won't be the future as some claim.


Well... you either foil... or you don't on the course.... A single number handicap system is doomed to cover this huge performance difference of the design. Then of course... you have to handicap the huge skill factor in flying the boat... can you fly the boat around the entire course... half the course.. or intermittently and so how much of this factor goes into the rating. Its a big ask for a single number rating system.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/03/16 05:11 AM

Sure, but it's still a bit surprising that the foilers aren't faster overall. It may be because the sailing media is very much caught up in the hype, so we only get to hear about the good performances from the foilers. They are taking press releases from the foiler manufacturers that talk everything up, but everyone goes quiet when the foilers are beaten across the line (as in the last two Texels).

As you say, it's hard for a single number system to work with foilers. Give it a few years and the foilers could be as separate from the seahuggers as cats are from monos.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/08/16 12:45 AM

Garda, I disagree with your statement on the 1st that foilers are denigrating the rest of sailing. Nothing that I know about foiling sullies the reputation of sailing in general or non-foiling sailing in particular. It is just another (now) available way to appreciate the sport I love.

I sail almost everything - I regularly sail big boats (that Beneteau 40.7 mentioned earlier), big multihulls, beach cats (including a little Hobie Wave), and this summer some foilers including the Phantom and the S9. All are enjoyable and require very different skills. I am 63 now and started sailing in college so the variety is an attractive feature of sailing and any new type of boat doesn't detract from it but rather enhances the sport!

While the UFO was not foiling it seemed to sail as fast as the Wave would have sailed but we were in an area by ourselves so there were no other boats around to use as a gauge. We were there to test sail some foilers and we were sailing in marginal conditions in any direction that better got the boat foil borne so I can't speak to how well it would race a WL course either way. I do think that you would want to stay in protected waters as the freeboard is probably even less than a Laser when not foiling. I did see it being as fast as the moths (there is a YouTube video of that also) when it was breezier. The Clarks have put a lot of design thought into this little boat and I was especially impressed with the sail and rig - a VERY clever arrangement to provide shape from very full to very flat very easily. The wishbone boom ends at the spreader tips and has a forward angle to the mainsheet so that it will push the boom into the spreaders and bend the mast as much as you allow by how tight/loose you have the diamond wire control line at the bottom of the mast. You have to see it but it is very simple and highly effective.

I have no interest in this boat other than sailing being a passion but I see no reason for anything but encouragement for this kind of thought and effort, especially from this group.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 11/08/16 02:00 PM

Mike, if the people I was referring to had your attitude that foiling is just another way to enjoy the sport we love, that would be great and I wouldn't criticise anything.

However, the people I'm referring to are those who say things like "foiling is the future for young sailors"; "this is the future"; "the best sailors only want to race on foils"; "it is the future of our sport at all levels....If youre a young kid getting into sailing you want to be in the foiling generation."

The message they are pounding in, time and time again, is quite specific - there is only one future (certainly at the top level) and it is foiling. If you sail where it's too rough for foilers, where it's too light for foilers, where there's no racing for foilers, then you have no future in the sport. If you happen to prefer any other form of the sport, then you have no future. If you cannot afford to throw away a H16 and get a foiler, you have no future.

Saying that the other parts of the sport have no future is clearly denigrating the rest of the sport. Sure, a lot of it is childish marketing bulldust, but then surely we can call them on that, and on their narrow-minded view on what the sport can be. It's pretty simple - if people want to us to be positive about their part of the sport, they can stop saying that the rest of the sport has no future.

Interesting info on the UFO speed. It would be great to see it work, and it probably will. All I'm saying is that it doesn't help the sport if other people (and it's not the Clarks) spend their time saying that 99.X% of the sport has no future.



Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/16/17 12:04 PM

I'm sure it works but it does look a bit silly seeing these big guys sitting on hometrainers eek
[Linked Image]
http://www.catsailingnews.com/2017/02/team-new-zealand-official-story-behind.html
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/16/17 05:10 PM

I should have worked for them... I had the idea to use pedal power many years ago. Legs are stronger than arms.

I think at the time the gearing and having to have a guy sitting opposite (pedaling backwards like a traditional coffee grinder) were the big hangups....

Now, let's say they pedal the heck out of the boat and then have to run across during the tack/gybe. Let's see how well that works.. From my triathlons, jumping off a bike at full sprint sometimes works... and sometimes doesn't

wonder if recumbant pedal/seat would be more aerodynamic... Although those bikes may be easier to get on/off.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 02/17/17 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I should have worked for them... I had the idea to use pedal power many years ago. Legs are stronger than arms.

I think at the time the gearing and having to have a guy sitting opposite (pedaling backwards like a traditional coffee grinder) were the big hangups....

Now, let's say they pedal the heck out of the boat and then have to run across during the tack/gybe. Let's see how well that works.. From my triathlons, jumping off a bike at full sprint sometimes works... and sometimes doesn't

wonder if recumbant pedal/seat would be more aerodynamic... Although those bikes may be easier to get on/off.


I posted about how the recumbant bike arrangement would certainly be a little more socially uncomfortable on FB the other day laugh
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/01/17 01:00 PM

Whew...Mr. McBitterpants - perhaps with reason..

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/28/sports/sailing/americas-cup-emirates-team-new-zealand.html
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 05:34 AM

I loved the comeback, from being down 8-1 last time, but I'm no fan of Larry. I wish he had laid down his ego just enough to have this AC in SFO again instead of BDA. SFO is a perfect spot for lots of reasons; wind, spectators, accessibility, etc. Bermuda?? Nobody is going to go, or even watch it on TV, hell, half of the US citizens couldn't find Bermuda on a map! Out of sight, out of mind. Thanks Larry, you tool.

I've always loved the Kiwi's sailing expertise, going back to Peter Blake and his red sox, but I do not like Emirates sponsoring them now (are there no Emiraties who know how to sail?), and trying to take over the world with our gas money.

Wouldn't it be nice if the original rules were still in tact, and each country had to provide a boat, sailors, and venue, domestically?
Posted By: phill

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 10:31 AM

"Wouldn't it be nice if the original rules were still in tact, and each country had to provide a boat, sailors, and venue, domestically? "
I agree 100%.
When they departed from these rules the event was over.
Now it is just dollar against dollar instead of country against country.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 02:07 PM

AC starts in about 2 months.

Has there been any announcement as to TV or Internet presentation of the upcoming Louis Vuitton Americas Cup Qualifiers in May or the final Cup races in June? AC website says NBC will show it but they said that about ACWS but it never happened.

NBSSN (NBS Sports Network) had the rights to the ACWS and buried it. They filmed it all but only broadcast a 30 minute review of each regatta. I've found complete recordings of New York and Chicago but they were not shown live.

I wrote to NBC and NBCSN, and received no answer.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 03:08 PM

Yes, Bermuda is an interesting choice...

But at least they should have had one of the LVC series stops in SF to take advantage of the predictable wind. I would have considered Freemantle as well for it's "Doctor". So you'd have 3 relatively predictable wind venues (Freemantle, SF and Portsmouth) and 3 variables

In a perfect world, it would be nice to see the economic blip that SF got for the Cup. While it was easy to spectate for free I'd venture a guess that there was a lot of extra restaurant seats taken, burgers eaten, taxis hired, trinkets bought outside of the Cup village which overall might have come close to some of the wildly optimistic targets that Larry sold to the city of SF.

But moving to the future... since few of us have airline tickets to Bermuda (or moved our yachts there), what in your mind would be a reasonable way for the AC franchise to make money off all of our eyeballs?

I for one loved the last AC YouTube stuff, even if it happened to be delayed by an hour or so to make sure production/broadcast was smooth.

Would I buy a Pay-per-view at $4.99 for the final series? Probably. Would I buy that app that didn't work? NOT. I don't need real time (although that's cool) as long as I can see the full replay.

The graphics were cool too (took some getting used to, but understand why it was needed for the non-sailing types). Gary's comments were laughable, but the old lead dragging stodgies need a familiar face.

Grant's "sex breath" was funny too, as was some "spicy" dialogue that slipped through the onboard camera/mics.

If the AC would copy whatever the NFL or the frigging Golf people are doing to get people to watch (graphics, back story, etc) it might help. They tried last time and it was moderately successful. The greatest comeback of all time was a nice bonus.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 05:42 PM

The argument against nationality rules has always made me cringe. Basically, because a bunch of ethically-challenged rich people can attain dual citizenship, it was viewed as a rule too easily broken and therefore not needed.

When pressed, the same people will claim that this is unfair to countries/entries with less money. BS smokescreen, there are no poor players in this game, and never will be. Besides, if a relatively poorer country shows up with a better boat and/or sailors, they still have a shot at winning.

I wish we could get spirit of the rule to win the day, but that's obviously expecting too much.

Mike

Edit: Insert a tirade from Mark here, telling me to stop wishing the world was a better place, only by my definition, etc...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 05:47 PM

meh, make whatever rules they want... just keep it high-tech and exciting to watch.

This particular trophy is not "sport for the people". It's competition for the elites. The "people" should just watch... preferably far away from the elites.

It's like trying to make Polo a sport for the poor. Too bad the poor keep eating the horses.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 08:57 PM

Now there's an idea I can get on board with! ;^)
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 10:15 PM

good with taco sauce!
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/02/17 10:26 PM

What I love about the way the AC has gone is the accelerated "trickle down" of technology. I am convinced that w/o the AC driving foiling technological and design improvements then we would not be seeing foiling beach boats like the Phantom 18, the Stunt (or S)14, the F101 tri, and quite a few others. We are seeing foiling Vendee Globe boats, and several smaller keel boats with lifting foils. Had they stayed with the IACC boats, foiling would be years behind.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/03/17 08:28 PM

NYYC says they're buying a set of automated "drone" marks. We'll see how far that ever trickles...

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/17 12:33 AM

weren't those mark boats last cycle semi-drones? They maintained stationary position using the same principles as today's drones, right?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/17 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by David Parker
AC starts in about 2 months.

Has there been any announcement as to TV or Internet presentation of the upcoming Louis Vuitton Americas Cup Qualifiers in May or the final Cup races in June? AC website says NBC will show it but they said that about ACWS but it never happened.

NBSSN (NBS Sports Network) had the rights to the ACWS and buried it. They filmed it all but only broadcast a 30 minute review of each regatta. I've found complete recordings of New York and Chicago but they were not shown live.

I wrote to NBC and NBCSN, and received no answer.


David, you have to read a little between the lines to see what happened there. NBC agreed to broadcast the events in the initial press release "with financial assistance from sponsors that were lining up" (I paraphrase. The problem happened when the sponsors didn't show up - NBC has the rights and none of the money needed to broadcast. Since they're running as a business and not a charity, they can't just allow the broadcasts to find their way to US distribution through Youtube...so, we're stuck...we get crappy chopped up broadcast of the events and are mostly blacked out online. I hope this was happening so they could save the funds that they DID have to broadcast the real event...fingers crossed.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/04/17 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
What I love about the way the AC has gone is the accelerated "trickle down" of technology. I am convinced that w/o the AC driving foiling technological and design improvements then we would not be seeing foiling beach boats like the Phantom 18, the Stunt (or S)14, the F101 tri, and quite a few others. We are seeing foiling Vendee Globe boats, and several smaller keel boats with lifting foils. Had they stayed with the IACC boats, foiling would be years behind.


Agreed. People have been tinkering with foiling for decades (Jake waves at Dave Carlson who's grinning). The modern era of foiling just wouldn't have happened without the AC pushing the limits and widening the performance window. It's still a pretty narrow window, in my opinion, but getting better. I don't think it will be the end-all - just another unpreventable splintering of our fleets as people search for excitement in an ever evolving technical world with ever shortening attention spans.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/05/17 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
weren't those mark boats last cycle semi-drones? They maintained stationary position using the same principles as today's drones, right?


The last cycle (leading up to the SF finals) had a variety of things for marks.

The first marks were the smaller boats, very sparse and would carry a driver, one crew and 3-4 photographers. These were manually run like any other twin screw. They had telemetry to show the driver the location (selected by the PRO through the system), and the driver had to get the boat there and hold station. Coutts hit one of these in Newport, while rounding during a race. I'm most familiar with these because I was on one during racing in Newport.

The next iteration was a larger boat, which was used for carrying VIPs. They carried closer to 20 people, with a driver, 2-3 crew and additional wait staff crew (as well as a dozen or so VIPs). They each had a galley in one hull. These boats were manually driven into position, but allegedly could automatically hold station. ETNZ hit one of these in Newport, on the way back to the harbor. I was aboard one of these in Newport, but only at the dock, so I didn't see it in action (we were the weather mark, the larger boats were the leeward marks).

After the accident that killed Bart, they did a major safety overhaul of the entire regatta, and while no one had been hurt due a collision between a racing boat and a mark boat, it was pretty clear that was probably only a matter of time.

So, they switched to inflatable marks, literally taking the base from a kid's bounce house, using that as the base for the prototype. They needed something big enough to carry telemetry equipment, be seen from afar, etc. They were manually set with an anchor, and did not have any other means to hold station.

John Craig gave a pretty cool chat about the progression of RC technology at one of the US Sailing meetings a few years ago, and did state that his dream would be to have remotely controlled marks that could hold station, and that he could move with a joystick.

The marks NYYC is looking at are supposed to be towed out, but can then hold station.

I'm sure that at a tech level, there's some similarity to flying drones, but are those capable of following instructions to autonomously go to a specified location without manual (remote) controls?

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/06/17 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by brucat




I'm sure that at a tech level, there's some similarity to flying drones, but are those capable of following instructions to autonomously go to a specified location without manual (remote) controls?

Mike


Yes - absolutely.






Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/06/17 01:24 PM

Cool. I always wondered why they were called drones, yet someone always needs to be running a remote.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/06/17 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


Agreed. People have been tinkering with foiling for decades (Jake waves at Dave Carlson who's grinning). The modern era of foiling just wouldn't have happened without the AC pushing the limits and widening the performance window.


And don't forget Wing sails. I saw Randy whiz past Naples yesterday on a wing sail on his way to (presumably - I haven't checked the results) to winning the Everglades Challenge
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/20/17 12:06 AM

ouch.

https://youtu.be/zG1EXtyL5t0
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/20/17 12:55 PM

I love the comment below the video
Originally Posted by Jake
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/20/17 02:16 PM

uhhhh... who was driving that thing?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/20/17 07:35 PM

Wow. Never thought I'd see anyone who was worse at docking than me.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/23/17 12:20 PM

Video embed doesn't appear to be working..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DO8EavroaA




[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/4DO8EavroaA[/video]
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 03/23/17 02:43 PM

I want to be a Barry
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/25/17 10:08 PM

Racing cancelled for Friday due to 40 knot winds. . .
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/26/17 04:58 PM

I just checked the weather at the Bermuda airport, (TXKF) it is showing winds of 21 knots right now (noon east coast time).

Earlier it was showing 14G28.

Is there an upper and lower wind limit in this AC series?

Supposed to be lighter tomorrow, hopefully we can see some racing then.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/26/17 09:38 PM

Is there any way to watch the racing from the US? I don't have cable or satellite TV. I have a decent internet connection and that is it. I'm willing to pay a "reasonable" subscription to a service if anyone can vouch that it works. I don't care to watch LIVE but would like to see it same day delay or even one day delay. Any ideas?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/26/17 11:48 PM

Set up a VPN or go stealth
or
Sling Blue $25 and it is pro rated. You can cancel anytime.

This gets you subscription rights to NBCSN to view on any device or app and replay.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/26/17 11:57 PM

FYI, a lot of the broadcasts are NOT live and will be heavily edited and you have to put up with Todd Harris.

It will be very difficult to repeat what we had in AC34. You will be disappointed. It will be more of what we had in the ACWS, which was horrible.

If you want it clean you will have to proxy from another country.

Your best feeds will probably be UK.
Posted By: dartfast

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 12:50 AM

Tried to send this before but hit the Tab and it all went away. Now I'll try again:

Don’t know if this is relevant but I just noticed 6PM 5/26/17 that the Americas Cup Round Robin Races in Bermuda are being covered on NBC SN HD channel 26 Spectrum Tampa Florida. The race today was called off due to 40 Kt. Winds and they were showing the last Cup Race in Cal. Watching wind surfers and small talking.
Looking forward the races seem to be covered and I am recording them on about 1PM 5/27, 5/28, 5/29, 5/30, 5/31, 6/02, 6/03.
Don’t know the real schedule but these programs seem to be covering the races so I scheduled recordings of all. Can always review and delete if necessary.

Terry
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
Is there any way to watch the racing from the US? I don't have cable or satellite TV. I have a decent internet connection and that is it. I'm willing to pay a "reasonable" subscription to a service if anyone can vouch that it works. I don't care to watch LIVE but would like to see it same day delay or even one day delay. Any ideas?


There will most likely be some videos put on YouTube not long after the races are over. Check out that Water World link I put in the What's up with the America's Cup thread. That should get you to their latest stuff.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 11:57 AM

NBCSN LIVE BROADCAST

NBC US Broadcasts for NBC, NBCSN, and NBC sports app

AC35 Schedule
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 04:08 PM

Nice 20 minute primer . . .
35th America's Cup Opening Day Preshow

Website doesn't seem to support YouTube embedding anymore.

Damon??
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 05:13 PM

Free Live Stream
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 05:45 PM

So livestream is in real time and you get more content. I'm watching the 3rd leg of 2nd race and NBCSN is still showing commercials.
NBCSN is not really live and way behind on tweets, social media, and the app.

Now NBCSN showing commercial in the middle of the race . . .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 05:51 PM

Thanks for that link, PM!

I'm watching on live TV on NBCSN, no problems at all (comes up as NBCSH on my guide). I'm using old-school cable (Charter/Spectrum). Looks much better on my 46-inch Sony than my Motorola Android!

Ugh!!!!! Just when I was about to say that without Jobson, we won't get to hear my most dreaded phrase, then Kenny just blurted it out: "The old-timers say you can't have tacking duels and match race these things..." I'm going out to cut the grass.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 05:56 PM

NBC just missed an overlap due to commercial for fock sake.
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 07:25 PM

Wow, aggressive moves and great racing between USA and NZ, nobody can say this isn't real sailboat racing any more.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 07:28 PM

The PitBull Luffs!!! Wow. Burling will learn from that. Awesome leg
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 08:09 PM

Thanks for the stream link. My connection kept dropping, but the VirtualEye worked. It was about a minute ahead of the BT video stream.

USA vs NZ was awesome! Shifty and puffy conditions with multiple lead changes - wow.

Then in GBR vs JP, Ben Ainslie nearly took out the Softbank crew in the pre-start. Luckily nobody appears to have been hurt. I expect we'll see some YouTube video of that crash soon.
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 08:14 PM

That prestart collision was nasty! GBR would have taken on a lot of water if their hull had been in the water during the race.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 08:28 PM

Yes. GBR's hull came down on top of JP, holing her hull on the bottom, and narrowly missing all the JP crew in their grinding stations. Team JP could have been crushed. Both shore teams are going to be busy fixing the boats tonight.

It won't be long now for the nickname "Crash" Ainslie to stick.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 09:30 PM

You can watch for free in the US without all of the commercials, etc. using the Android or iOS America's Cup app.

I just plugged my tablet into the TV (their chromecast implementation appears to not work) and watched the whole day in HD.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 10:15 PM

Nicknames aside, I guess Ainsle isn't happy unless he's on top of another boat??? (Think about it...)

Can't believe I missed it because I was cutting grass! How do I get to see a replay of that and the USA / NZL race???

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/27/17 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
How do I get to see a replay of that and the USA / NZL race???

Mike


You can full replay on NBCSN app for now. It's listed under "fleet" racing. Lol.
Posted By: Isotope235

The crash - 05/28/17 03:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1wqSRV8vY

Team Softbank Japan is lucky that their raised foil caught BAR's hull and kept it from landing on the crew. Otherwise, the encounter could have become tragic.
Posted By: Isotope235

Upset! - 05/28/17 05:31 PM

Groupama (FR) just beat Artemis (SWE) by 3 seconds! Way to get back into the game France.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 02:08 PM

Three Races today.

12:00 Bermuda
GBR vs FRA

12:30 14:30 Bermuda
SWE vs NZL

13:00 15:00 Bermuda
FRA vs JPN
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 03:43 PM

NZL looks to be the Challenger to beat so far. Burling needs to fire his image consultant, pronto. He looks like Marilyn Manson behind the wheel...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 03:58 PM

Let's see what SWE does in the breeze, which they are fast in. Yesterday had 30 degree shifts all day in lighter breeze. Being in the right place paid off huge.
Don't rule out JPN or GBR, still a lot of experimenting going on with their foils and setup. Everybody has a chance less FRA.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:19 PM

Wow, did Cammas blow that start! Great comeback on the weather leg, though, and held it to the first gate. Ainsle isn't exactly looking like he's up to the task since the collision two days ago.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:35 PM

Cammas was SMOKING across that finish line! I'm surprised Ainsle kept it within a minute at the end, certainly looked slower than that.

SWE and NZL, this ought to be interesting!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:40 PM

Wow, Artemis just completely screwed themselves. Over early at the start after clearly winning it. NZL was completely screwed until SWE gave it away. Wow...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:48 PM

Wow, what an awesome race. NZL nearly crossed SWE at the weather mark, but ducked and split. Unbelievable pass on the run, followed by a split at the leeward gate, this is anyone's race to lose!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:53 PM

Basically tied going into the final run, this is NUTS!!!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 05:58 PM

LOTS of drama at the last gate. SWE smoked in on STBD, looked like they had it won, but got penalized for a P/S incident at the mark! NZL wins it!

I don't know if redress is an option, it certainly looked clean. Burling is saying that they needed more room, and had to make a crash gybe at 40 knots.

NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 06:32 PM

Other than the start, I missed the last race. Dalton had an awesome start (made it look too easy), but how did he beat Cammas by over two and a half minutes???

Mike
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Apparently, the umpires felt that if NZ had not crash-gybed (or rounded up), she would have hit SWE.

I thought that SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Other than the start, I missed the last race. Dalton had an awesome start (made it look too easy), but how did he beat Cammas by over two and a half minutes???

Dean Barker (JP) had a great start at the windward end and simply blew by FR. Cammas didn't even try to shut Barker out. JP finished so far ahead by flying for 97.5% of the race. Cammas (FR) splashed a lot.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 07:15 PM

Here's the whole downwind gate sequence, looks to me like ETNZ tried to hunt Artemis but when they realized they where clear ahead they tried the protest.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Had NZ not crash-gybed (or rounded up), they would have hit SWE.

SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.


Wow, I really typed that wrong. Thanks for correcting that, Eric.

But, I still say SWE had it won, even on port. All they had to do was go wide and win. I don't think NZL could have gybed fast enough around that mark to get ahead for the final reach leg.

Besides, looking at those photos, could NZL really have continued to go past the layline to the mark to attack SWE at that point? I know they use different rules than the standard RRS. Under standard RRS, going beyond that layline would have been sailing above proper course, as they were outside the zone.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 07:50 PM

it did look like a weak attempt at hunting, but it appears the ref gave it to them?

Not sure if they have a formal protest room or not?

Anyway, that was the best race yet with lots of speed and multiple lead changes.

The race after that was almost like watching the 12 meter cup races... Except at 30 knots smile

Suprised Cammas just followed Barker around the racecourse...


The point made earlier (I only saw the TV version) might have merit: force the other team into maneuvers and maybe their hydro pressure will run out....

And I do think the pedal power is the way to go.... Now let's see if their foil designs and overall boathandling can keep pace...
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 10:00 PM

The judges just admitted they dorked up the call and Artemis should not have been penalized. There's no recourse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqC65h-hI5k

it's important for them to admit this because teams may use or not use the outcome in the future.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Had NZ not crash-gybed (or rounded up), they would have hit SWE.

SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.


Wow, I really typed that wrong. Thanks for correcting that, Eric.

But, I still say SWE had it won, even on port. All they had to do was go wide and win. I don't think NZL could have gybed fast enough around that mark to get ahead for the final reach leg.

Besides, looking at those photos, could NZL really have continued to go past the layline to the mark to attack SWE at that point? I know they use different rules than the standard RRS. Under standard RRS, going beyond that layline would have been sailing above proper course, as they were outside the zone.

Mike


Mike,

I've skimmed the rules and it looks like, had NZL been able to force Artemis to avoid, they could have ignored the gate and done so. However, the boundary zone was really close to that gate and it would have come into play very very quickly and I'm not even sure Artemis would have had time for two gybes without breaching the boundary.

I'm convinced that this three boat length circle is FAR too small for these boats. They enter and are out of that zone in about 3 seconds during normal roundings. There's no way any decisions and relevant maneuvers are going to be made in that zone like we're accustomed to. If that zone were twice as large (6 boat lengths), now the actual rounding rules might come into play - or the rules need to be different somehow...Regardless, there is a screwy rule thing in the AC rule 18 and the course descriptions where that looks like that rounding at the bottom just before the finish would still considered a gate and not a single mark to be rounded even though they need to turn left to get to the finish. They have a course option for the finish to follow a single mark in the middle of the course but the finish after those two marks still call them a gate and there are specific rule differences between marks and gates.

https://docs.google.com/a/acracemgt...b3RpY2Vib2FyZHxneDo3MWQ1ZjgxYThhNjY2NDRh
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 10:13 PM

All the mark/gate stuff is all mute, though - because, as you said, this was a simple port starboard situation. I think NZ couldn't make up their mind to try and push Artemis but when they realized they couldn't get there, they were unprepared for the gybe and basically pulled off a bit of a soccer style flop and got the penalty call. It's really hard to tell from the moving helicopter footage whether or not NZL could actually get to Artemis or not. I saw a brief angle from Artemis' tail camera that was focused on NZ and it really didn't look like NZ could get there to force Artemis off their spot.

one thing for sure, though, Artemis could have rounded even wider and saved themselves from the call. They still needed to go through the gate (see my notes above) but they could have dropped even lower and made that much less close.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/29/17 10:27 PM

I was watching the Virtual Eye overhead view at the time and all I could really tell was that the crossing was very close. I didn't even see the penalty indicator until the boats were halfway down the reach leg. It's a pity that the umpires made what they now consider to be a bad call, and that there's no redress for Artemis.

It was my understanding that mark 6 is a rounding mark, not a gate, but I'll have to look into that.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 12:47 AM

Richard Gladwell sums it up nicely . . .
Quote
As has been seen in the first three days of racing in the 35th America’s Cup, the competition has been closer than ever. The outcome of each race is unpredictable and races are being won and lost by extremely fine margins. This means that the pressure on the umpires to make the correct calls is greater than ever before.

As in all sports, umpires are not infallible and on this occasion, even with the best sailing umpires in the world that are overseeing the 35th America’s Cup, they have admitted that their decision, on reflection, may have been different.

Umpires admit error in controversial win for Kiwis
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 12:51 AM

Don't know if any of you saw it but NZ hit 46 knots in the pre-start. That's . . . like . . . 53 mph for us non metric rednecks.
smile
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 01:05 AM

I know that NO ONE is happy about this (except maybe NZL). TV or otherwise, I think it's inexcusable not to be able to correct such an error. Yes, this was close, but suppose the umpires mess up something even more obvious? May not seem possible, but we're all human.

This reminds me of the MLB umpire that screwed a pitcher out of a no-hitter a few years ago. He knew he blew the call, but no one could fix Humpty Dumpty at the time. I believe that the replay rules have fixed that, and rightly so.

No one (including umpires) wants their career to end over a mistake (which should be fixable).

Mike

PS/EDIT: I do fully agree that they should be using a zone of at least four lengths. Wouldn't work for us mere mortals, but they're doing everything with GPS, so it wouldn't be a problem for the boats or umps.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I know that NO ONE is happy about this (except maybe NZL). TV or otherwise, I think it's inexcusable not to be able to correct such an error. Yes, this was close, but suppose the umpires mess up something even more obvious? May not seem possible, but we're all human.

This reminds me of the MLB umpire that screwed a pitcher out of a no-hitter a few years ago. He knew he blew the call, but no one could fix Humpty Dumpty at the time. I believe that the replay rules have fixed that, and rightly so.

No one (including umpires) wants their career to end over a mistake (which should be fixable).

Mike

PS/EDIT: I do fully agree that they should be using a zone of at least four lengths. Wouldn't work for us mere mortals, but they're doing everything with GPS, so it wouldn't be a problem for the boats or umps.


Brucat, it's different because the penalties are being assessed live on the water during racing. I know you know this following bit but to refresh, there's a difference in how match racers treat penalties. The match racing boats do not exonerate themselves in the case of an infraction. They only do so after a penalty is assessed by the judges/computers so the judges carry a lot more responsibility. While this was a clear case of a penalty right before an obvious outcome at the finish, imagine if the debatable penalty had occurred on the first downwind gate rounding? How would you correct a judging error at the end of that race? You would have no way to know how exactly that penalty affected the outcome. I don't think it's possible to universally be able to revisit a judging error when the calls are being made live unless you can stop the action while it's revisited.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 01:59 PM

Today's Live Racing: Qualifiers Round 1

12:00 Bermuda
NZL vs SWE

12:30 Bermuda
FRA vs USA

13:00 Bermuda
SWE vs GBR

First race is a rematch of yesterdays debacle. Would be sweet revenge for a SWE victory.

Sir Ben badly needs a win today.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 02:09 PM

I think this also drags in that other discussion about using the rules to your advantage as part of the winning strategy..

Like the pre-start hooking on several races, the hunting (upwind and downwind) on that particular race with NZL and SWE

first impression was that NZL threw that protest up just to see if it would stick. And when it actually did stick, I was taken aback a bit.


I only saw the TV episode, but with closing speeds at that last leeward turning mark approaching 40-50 knots it would be really hard for that tactician (or the on-water umpire) to be able to say that it didn't look like NZL would have to alter course...



It even looked like NZL was hunting right before they executed that horrible gybe, and it almost looked like SWE did drive around it.

But that was (in my opinion) the most exciting of the races so far. I'm off to check the Youtube replay....
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 02:35 PM

I don't think I saw the protest light pushed from NZ and it was an afterthought when Burling completely blundered the jibe. Burling rambled on in the interview, and completely dance around the question about "hitting the button". Sounded and looked like a deer in the headlights. Nathan's interview addressed his strategy, and intended execution. I call BS on NZ and Burling. He would have been better off just saying he was lucky to get the point and then STFU.

Post Race Interview

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
He would have been better off just saying he was lucky to get the point and then STFU.


+1

"Don't try to sell something that's already sold"
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:03 PM

Agreed about the interviews. As I posted in the other thread, they have a long way to go to earn my respect as sportsmen. Ainsle didn't once mention concern for the health of the guys he nearly killed. Burling basically admitted to calling for an umpire call out of desperation, and had the gall to say that in all pro sports, you play to the whistle. Yikes...

Jake, I hear you about needing final decisions in a match race, but this is the America's Cup. They should be able to resolve this in a jury afterwards, and let that be the final call. They could award/strip points, call for a re-sail, etc. Just my opinion, of course...

Anyway, today is a new day, and I'm rooting for Nathan!!!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:13 PM

Focking commercials. Really NBC???
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:31 PM

I'm watching on the phone app for the first time today. Fewer ads than I'd expected so far, but I think I missed something near the end. Was SWE given a penalty after the last weather gate?

Very close race until they blew it in the approach to that last weather gate.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:35 PM

BT Sport is not running ads during the race. I'm viewing multiple feeds simultaneously. The time away during commercials with NBCSN there is good and valuable content on BT Sport.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:45 PM

Cammas just embarrassed himself twice. Totally hosed in the pre-start, then an unforced error, sailing out of bounds on the first run. Wow...

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 05:56 PM

Someone remind me why Oracle is sailing in the challenger series again?
IMHO they have no business being there.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 06:11 PM

Basically, because they can. Also, there is no Defender series (no domestic challengers) as there were many years ago.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone remind me why Oracle is sailing in the challenger series again?
IMHO they have no business being there.


It does work two ways...the competitors get an idea how far ahead (or behind) Oracle is on boat speed. The defender has argued about being in the challenger series for as long as I remember (going well back into the monohull days) but it was never allowed. There are a couple of reasons and the most prominent is probably an argument about the number of competitors. There really aren't that many challengers and the last round robin was boring as heck with only three challengers - although the sliver suited sailors were fun to watch. There aren't THAT many challengers this time around either and one more boat in the mix does make for a more eventful series.

To offset the challenger concerns about Oracle being in the series, a point carry-over for the winner of the challenger round robin series to the finals match was added into the mix....and Oracle could win that point advantage too (it's actually a negative point for the other team but I digress).

I see the argument both ways and I don't have an issue with Oracle being in the round robin...Oracle risks showing that they have more speed and better boat handling and giving the other teams a better idea of where they need to be to take them down. That equation could just as easily go the other way and Oracle could see how far behind they are and need to improve before the finals. With either scenario, though, it serves to believe that we'll see a tightly contested finals match given how much head to head time the challenger and defender have had against each other leading up to the series.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 06:25 PM

what is that regular "klunk" noise on the SWE boat? Something with hydraulics I suppose
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 06:42 PM

I remember day one seeing video from the bowsprit where the clunk noise synchronized with the jib downhaul, so maybe that's it. What I did see is the jib downhaul movement was instant and very mechanical (several inches).
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
it serves to believe that we'll see a tightly contested finals match given how much head to head time the challenger and defender have had against each other leading up to the series.


+1

Who knows, even with all this high-speed tech, it may end up boiling down to the same things that won all those AC matches in the past....
- good dial up
- picking the right side of the course
- working the opponent's weakness (maneuver, top speed, angles)
- smooth transitions
- forcing opponent error


I still like the pedal power concept on ENTZ.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 07:56 PM

I think it will end up being the same as last time for sure!
Larry and his huge wallet will pay off the competitors if it gets close

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
it serves to believe that we'll see a tightly contested finals match given how much head to head time the challenger and defender have had against each other leading up to the series.


+1

Who knows, even with all this high-speed tech, it may end up boiling down to the same things that won all those AC matches in the past....
- good dial up
- picking the right side of the course
- working the opponent's weakness (maneuver, top speed, angles)
- smooth transitions
- forcing opponent error


I still like the pedal power concept on ENTZ.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 08:06 PM

Today's press conference

Posted By: Will_R

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone remind me why Oracle is sailing in the challenger series again?
IMHO they have no business being there.


This is total speculation, but... I'm guessing that it also has something to do with the one boat per team rule. If all teams (defender and challenger) are limited to a single boat, how do you test? Back in the monohull days, most of the teams (especially the defender) ran multi-boat programs. Allowing the defender into the challenger round robins would reduce the cost for the defender by not having to build/test/maintain a second platform.

It also makes for better media, one more boat on the water to race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/30/17 11:07 PM

I think it SUCKS that we don't have multiple US teams in a defender series. That's probably the biggest thing I miss from the old format. That, and better nationality rules.

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 12:49 AM

Finally got the video working again. There is a new button [Linked Image] to click and insert the URL of the video. It is automatically sized and embedded from just the url.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 01:11 AM

Awesome, thanks Damon!

I really want to see Artemis crawl back into this. Nothing but respect for how Nathan has been handling himself, at least what I've seen so far in interviews.

Do the scores reset after the initial round robins?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Damon Linkous
Finally got the video working again. There is a new button [Linked Image] to click and insert the URL of the video.

Thanks Damon. I didn't see the new button but the old media tag is now working. I went back and edited my posts to embed the video on those posts that haven't "edit time expired". I did notice that none of the old embedded videos (other threads) work any more or they are now broken.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by brucat

Do the scores reset after the initial round robins?

Mike


28. AMERICA’S CUP CHALLENGER PLAYOFFS
28.1. Overview: The America’s Cup Challenger Playoffs shall comprise a Semi-
Finals stage and a Final stage, each of which shall include the following
agreed principles:
(a) the winner of each race scores one (1) point, the loser scores no
points;
(b) no Competitor shall compete in any more than three (3) races on
any one (1) day. An abandoned race is not a completed race;
(c) crew substitutions shall be restricted to two (2) crew for each
Competitor between each race on any day; and
(d) Competitors shall race in yachts that comply with the AC62 Class
Rule.
28.2. Semi-Finals stage: Only the top four (4) placed Challengers in the
America’s Cup Qualifiers shall qualify to compete in the America’s Cup
Challenger Playoffs. The top placed Challenger in the America’s Cup
Qualifiers shall choose its opponent in the Semi-Finals stage of the
America’s Cup Challenger Playoffs. The remaining two (2) Challengers
shall race each other. The winner of each Semi-Final shall be the first
Challenger to score at least five (5) points after applying any penalties.
28.3. Final stage: The winner of each Semi-Final shall compete against
each other in the Final stage. The winner of the Final stage will be the
first Challenger to score at least five (5) points after applying any
penalties. The Challenger that wins the Final stage shall qualify to
compete against the Defender in the Match. If for any reason the
winner of the Final stage is ineligible or unable to compete as the
challenger against the Defender in the Match, then the next highest
placed Challenger that is eligible and able shall be the challenger in the
Match.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 02:30 AM

...OK, so yes?

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Will_R
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone remind me why Oracle is sailing in the challenger series again?
IMHO they have no business being there.


This is total speculation, but... I'm guessing that it also has something to do with the one boat per team rule. If all teams (defender and challenger) are limited to a single boat, how do you test? Back in the monohull days, most of the teams (especially the defender) ran multi-boat programs. Allowing the defender into the challenger round robins would reduce the cost for the defender by not having to build/test/maintain a second platform.

It also makes for better media, one more boat on the water to race.


Good point!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 01:55 PM

Today's forecast from Oracle:

Quote
0900: Today is all about the forecast. Very light and shifty conditions are forecast, just around the lower limit for race (an average wind speed of 6 knots).

Winds this afternoon are forecast to be 3 to 6 knots, NE, easing to variable.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 01:57 PM

Today's race schedule:

12:00 14:00 Bermuda
JPN vs FRA

12:30 14:30 Bermuda
GBR vs NZL

13:00 15:00 Bermuda
USA vs JPN

13:30 15:30 Bermuda
FRA vs GBR
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 04:41 PM

I'm going to miss at least the first two, someone please post updates!

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:03 PM

You're not missing anything... delay due to light wind.

Watching replays of yesterday's races
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:07 PM

Have they cancelled or just in a delay?
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:07 PM

New quick-reply box!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:26 PM

looks like they just sent them to the beach for the day...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:39 PM

Just jumped onto the NBCSN app, says they're postponed. Jay, how are you viewing, seems like you have better info?

Mike

+1 on the Quick Reply box!!!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 06:49 PM

Race committee still waiting to get 2 races off. Race 3 and 4 cancelled to time limit expiration.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 07:17 PM

Races abandoned.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 07:20 PM

Thursday is not a "scheduled" race day but today's format will carry over to tomorrow for make up.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 05/31/17 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Just jumped onto the NBCSN app, says they're postponed. Jay, how are you viewing, seems like you have better info?

Mike

+1 on the Quick Reply box!!!



I didn't see the abandon flag but guessed between replays that the clock would run out... Looks like for once I guessed right smile

I'm streaming off the NBC website. I doubt if there is much delay between that and the mobile app.

I presume there is some delay between the live event and the stream... Maybe up to 20 minutes? It seemed there were some comments here and SA that were based on the live tracker that seemed ahead of my broadcast. Like that penalty on SWE from NZL...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 02:07 PM

What are the expected conditions today?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 03:45 PM

currently 6-7 kts
forecast 10-12 kts
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 04:23 PM

That'll work, thanks PM.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Will_R
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone remind me why Oracle is sailing in the challenger series again?
IMHO they have no business being there.


This is total speculation, but... I'm guessing that it also has something to do with the one boat per team rule. If all teams (defender and challenger) are limited to a single boat, how do you test? Back in the monohull days, most of the teams (especially the defender) ran multi-boat programs. Allowing the defender into the challenger round robins would reduce the cost for the defender by not having to build/test/maintain a second platform.

It also makes for better media, one more boat on the water to race.


Good point!


From America’s Cup Hall of Famer, Mike Drummond – the former Team NZ navigator

"What will the defender achieve from racing with the challengers

Fraternizing with the enemy is no longer a sin in the America’s Cup. Controversially including the defender in the challenger fray - for the first time in 166 years - will definitely benefit Oracle.

First and foremost, they will have gleaned plenty of knowledge of the challengers, and learned much about how their own boat races, before they take a vital two weeks off to perfect “17” for the Cup proper.

But they also want the one point that’s up for grabs, which translates into the first win in the America’s Cup match. Should it be a challenger who tops the qualifier series ending on Sunday, they will have to proceed to the Cup match to make the point count.

The next few days are important for Oracle. They will want to deny Team NZ that prized point. “But it’s just as important for them to learn as much as they can, from sailing against strong opposition.”

Oracle are no mugs – and they have sharp memories of the last Cup where they never stopped developing and improving."

Cup Hall of Famer answers the big questions
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 05:00 PM

Spectators in Bermuda will get a decent show today with winds at 265
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 05:45 PM

I almost laughed out loud when they said FRA was "STRUGGLING" at 17knots boatspeed in 8 knots of TWS

Sure, they were dragging compared to JPN, but sh*t.... 17kts in 8? a tough problem to have
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:02 PM

NZ just sailed a leg 4.5 times wind speed. BAR clearly brought the wrong set up.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:11 PM

I thought that race from France was a blowout, but I think Ainsle has set the bar, behind by almost a full LAP when NZL finished! They didn't appear to actually finish, did they have a breakdown?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I almost laughed out loud when they said FRA was "STRUGGLING" at 17knots boatspeed in 8 knots of TWS

Sure, they were dragging compared to JPN, but sh*t.... 17kts in 8? a tough problem to have


Todd Harris: "Hey Ken, Todd here, I'm on assignment covering extreme snake wrangling in Sri Lanka. I'll be there next week. Make sure you cover for me and say completely stupid stuff as we don't know what the hell we are talking about."

Ken Read: "Hey Todd, I got it covered. Pycho-babbling as we speak . . ."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I thought that race from France was a blowout, but I think Ainsle has set the bar, behind by almost a full LAP when NZL finished! They didn't appear to actually finish, did they have a breakdown?

Mike


They asked RC to retire. Clearly had a problem when they rounded the mark, but Dip Schit Read missed it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:38 PM

Barker just schooled JS
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 06:52 PM

Slingsby read and called a great shift on leg 5. Brilliant
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


From America’s Cup Hall of Famer, Mike Drummond – the former Team NZ navigator

"What will the defender achieve from racing with the challengers

Fraternizing with the enemy is no longer a sin in the America’s Cup. Controversially including the defender in the challenger fray - for the first time in 166 years - will definitely benefit Oracle.

First and foremost, they will have gleaned plenty of knowledge of the challengers, and learned much about how their own boat races, before they take a vital two weeks off to perfect “17” for the Cup proper.

But they also want the one point that’s up for grabs, which translates into the first win in the America’s Cup match. Should it be a challenger who tops the qualifier series ending on Sunday, they will have to proceed to the Cup match to make the point count.

The next few days are important for Oracle. They will want to deny Team NZ that prized point. “But it’s just as important for them to learn as much as they can, from sailing against strong opposition.”

Oracle are no mugs – and they have sharp memories of the last Cup where they never stopped developing and improving."

Cup Hall of Famer answers the big questions


It's hard to disagree with the points he brings up. Added to which, I believe I saw where Oracle was running to different port and starboard daggerboard foils on either side of their boat two days ago presumably to test which ones performed better in the same conditions. Their risk/reward formula is a lot different than the other teams in this round robin series.

I'm still not totally against the defender getting to partake in the round robin but it's hard for me not to have a tinge of bias. Besides my obvious regional bias, this defender has had the vision and insistence to beat back a lot of opposition to the entire idea of multihulls in the America's Cup and has brought us these incredible boats.

Lastly, I suspect that most teams have kept some developmental things out of sight and off the water. This isn't just a day to day race on the water. Also key is the pace to your development because development WILL happen as the race progresses. You need to peak with that development at the right time in order to win the cup. Peak too early, as New Zealand did in the last iteration, and your competition has a chance to discover, develop, and catch you. Peak too late, and well, it's over before it starts. Rest assured, these boats will continue to get faster and faster.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by brucat
I thought that race from France was a blowout, but I think Ainsle has set the bar, behind by almost a full LAP when NZL finished! They didn't appear to actually finish, did they have a breakdown?

Mike


They asked RC to retire. Clearly had a problem when they rounded the mark, but Dip Schit Read missed it.

As stated in the interview, Sir Ben said they had a systems failure and could not control the daggerboard
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 08:40 PM

Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 09:01 PM

Maybe we need Jobson back. I don't recall Kenny making so many odd comments last time, Jobson had the market cornered.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 09:07 PM

I'm trying to watch replays, as I missed everything after the second race today. I'm viewing on the NBCSN site on a PC. It SUCKS that you're forced to watch 3+ minutes of commercials every time you try to click ahead in the replay!

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I'm trying to watch replays, as I missed everything after the second race today. I'm viewing on the NBCSN site on a PC. It SUCKS that you're forced to watch 3+ minutes of commercials every time you try to click ahead in the replay!

Mike



but it's free, so.....
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 09:13 PM

I can't wait to see all the tech that is spawned at the conclusion of the AC cup and the 'secrets' are revealed.

The Phadeo program seems amped up on foils for the most part and they're sending it... Ofshore even...

How is the Phantom F18 foiler doing?

Did I read the next generation G4 cat has some of this hydro adjusting foil tech already?

Did the UFO foiling cat get under production?


And I know Jake's already trying to hack ENTZ database to copy their carbon layup schedule on the foil package.... wink
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/01/17 10:03 PM

NYYC says they're going to buy drone marks, mostly because they can, I'd imagine.

For a slow race, that GBR/FRA race was a nail-biter! Cammas late to the entry didn't help, but he made a great recovery on the first reach. Ainsle got a better shift/puff on the top half of the last beat, and positioned himself well to take full advantage and win. I'm sure luck was a major factor, though.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by P.M.

As stated in the interview, Sir Ben said they had a systems failure and could not control the daggerboard

Do you think they would have asked the RC to abandon the race if they were a lap in front? confused
IMHO Ben's gybing was the only failure cool

Was a bit disappointed that the French did win the last race against BAR, they sailed a better race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by P.M.

As stated in the interview, Sir Ben said they had a systems failure and could not control the daggerboard

Do you think they would have asked the RC to abandon the race if they were a lap in front? confused
IMHO Ben's gybing was the only failure cool

Was a bit disappointed that the French did win the last race against BAR, they sailed a better race.


Agree with your first point, GBR totally blew that first gybe, and in the light air, got themselves way behind. But, Ainsle looked morally defeated as it quickly became obvious that they couldn't get back onto the foils, and I think he gave up on the race at that point.

I too wanted Cammas to win, but he didn't sail a better match race, IMHO (it ain't over till it's over, and you can only get one point or zero). He was late for his port entry, and missed some key shifts and pressure changes late in the race. He then set himself up on port for the final cross at the finish line.

I would agree that he generally appeared to do a better job of sailing the cat in "displacement mode" (apparently, this is the new code for FLOATING on a foiling boat)...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


And I know Jake's already trying to hack ENTZ database to copy their carbon layup schedule on the foil package.... wink


Nah. I'm staying out of all this foiling business until things calm the heck down. I don't need that much more frustration in my life and am happy working on the finer details of rigging/sailing at the moment.
Posted By: Isotope235

Great sailors - abysmal reporters - 06/02/17 02:06 PM

Great racing so far, and the trends have really begun to emerge.

Dean Barker is the epitome of grace and sportsmanship. He never whines and he never gloats -- even though he probably has the most right of any skipper here to do both.

Frank Cammas keeps putting on a good face, even though it was obvious from the outset that the Groupama boat simply doesn't foil as well as the others.

Nathan Outteridge must be supremely frustrated. Artemis is sailing much better than the results indicate, but they seem to wind up on the wrong side of most setup choices, close calls, and wind shifts. Other teams are able to capitalize on SWE's mistakes, but SWE can't capitalize on theirs.

Peter Burling is learning to present a modest image and is now coming across very well. Couple that with Emirates' outstanding performance so far and it's difficult to imagine them not coming out on top. Team NZL's boat has consistently been the fastest and their boathandling is unmatched.

Jimmy Spithill is doing a great PR job. He's consistently unassuming, positive, and likeable. On the course, Oracle has made many mistakes but has always stayed in the game. Team USA has been lucky with their comebacks so far though. They aren't as dominant as their score might indicate. I'm sure the team must be very worried about NZL.

Ben Ainslie is looking defeated. His many mistakes and Land Rover BAR's inability to foil in light wind have taken their toll. GBR is not as competitive as they were in the ACWS.

All in all, the racing has been very exciting, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.

I wish I could say the same about the reporting. The America's Cup is the pinnacle of our sport -- it's a shame that we can only get second-rate reporters. TV coverage has been lackluster, focusing on images of teams grinding, people running across the trampoline, and the foil tips. They often fail to show the positions of the boats on the racecourse, and usually miss the reasons for lead changes. Gone are the explanations of the course, the rules, and the tactics that made the last America's Cup understandable to the public.

The post-race interviews, videos, and press releases are amateurish. The only recaps worth reading come from Paul Cayard, and they are dry, dry, dry. The skipper press conference reporters ask fluff questions and never follow up - or are pushing their own agendas. The photos and videos are low in production quality. Yesterday, reporting sank to a new low with allegations of race fixing. One of the reporters had the gall to ask Dean Barker if he intentionally threw the race so that USA could win an AC point. Richard Gladwell (Sail World's AC reporter), who has always been biased for New Zealand, repeated the charge in his article, and went on to say that it looked to him like Softbank JPN intentionally chose the wrong side of the racecourse at Oracles "team order". Such unfounded accusations of cheating are appallingly unprofessional. Personally, as someone who believes that sportsmanship is a fundamental tenet of sailboat racing, I find it offensive.

I think Sail-World.com is past due for a new reporter.

Sadly,
Eric
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: Great sailors - abysmal reporters - 06/02/17 02:09 PM

what are you sailing these days?

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


And I know Jake's already trying to hack ENTZ database to copy their carbon layup schedule on the foil package.... wink


Nah. I'm staying out of all this foiling business until things calm the heck down. I don't need that much more frustration in my life and am happy working on the finer details of rigging/sailing at the moment.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:19 PM

Eric, I agree. Richard is just trying to sell ad space. It is the new world order of the media, and it nauseates me.

There is some good information buried in the "shock and awe" prose of Gladwell
Oracle closer taking Match point with vital Day 6 win
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:28 PM

Sadly, the AC34 scars didn't fair well with NZ. Hindsight being 20/20, it does look that team NZ would be better served with Barker at the helm, he's just that good.

Agree with you also regarding Artemis, Nathan and Iain are really good together, the team is blazing fast and boat handling is right up there with the best teams. . . . They are so close to putting it all together.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by P.M.

As stated in the interview, Sir Ben said they had a systems failure and could not control the daggerboard

Do you think they would have asked the RC to abandon the race if they were a lap in front? confused
IMHO Ben's gybing was the only failure cool

Was a bit disappointed that the French did win the last race against BAR, they sailed a better race.


Ben is frustrated and it shows. Think he might jump off the boat and attack a photographer? I can't get that picture out of my mind.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
There is some good information buried in the "shock and awe" prose of Gladwell
Oracle closer taking Match point with vital Day 6 win

There is some good information, but Gladwell also needs to check his facts before publishing. For example:
Quote
"The Kiwis had and average breeze of less than 7kts for their race against Land Rover BAR, and went around the track in 18m 50 secs compared to the 18minutes taken by Oracle Team USA - although both courses were shortened after the start and distances were not the same."

is wrong. The NZL/GBR race was shortened at mark 6, but the USA/JPN race was not. Oracle sailed all 7 legs of the course.

On another note, I was surprised to hear USA hail RC and ask if the race was being shortened -- and even more surprised to hear RC reply. In regular fleet racing, that would constitute outside help and would break rule 41.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Ben is frustrated and it shows. Think he might jump off the boat and attack a photographer?

Thanks -- I needed a laugh.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 03:56 PM

Where are the crowds?

I was there in Chicago and the massive and loud crowd was a spectacle in itself and NBC repeatedly panned their cameras across the crowded Navy Pier.

Not so in Bermuda. Has anyone noticed that the grand stands seem to be empty? NBC annoyingly cuts to close ups of a dozen fans waving appropriate flags but rarely (never?) do they show crowds of people on the hard or in the huge grand stand. Sometimes I think those group shots are staged.

Is this like the faked moon landing? AC35...fake news! Is foiling just a trick of CGI?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 04:19 PM

Eric, I agree with a lot of your points in your longer post. I have some slightly different opinions on some of the skippers, but haven't watched an interview in a few days.

They do have an open channel with the RC. They're fed a lot of data from the RC as well.

One way to solve this problem in "normal" racing is for the RC to make announcements to the fleet (not to answer a specific boat). This takes caution obviously, the RC has to wonder why the question is being asked. If the change is unclear, that's a good reason for a fleet announcement. If you're answering a specific boat who just isn't paying attention, that's probably worthy of radio silence. Either move could cause a redress hearing under the wrong circumstances, but generally speaking, everyone wants more communication from the RC.

Mike
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I have some slightly different opinions on some of the skippers, but haven't watched an interview in a few days.

A few days ago, I found Peter Burling to be a bit arrogant, but he's really toned that down in the past couple of briefings. He's adopted a more unassuming attitude that I think goes over much better.

I also thought that Ben Ainslie should have apologized for hitting JPN, or at least shown some concern for the wellbeing of Softbank's crew -- not just his own boat's damage. Karma, however, appears to be catching up with him.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Where are the crowds?


On the mega yachts, watching the BT Sport feed, and there are a lot of them, including the Maltese Falcon.

MF folder
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope235
On another note, I was surprised to hear USA hail RC and ask if the race was being shortened -- and even more surprised to hear RC reply.


Where was it that you heard the RC reply? I don't recall it. I remember Slingsby on a hot mike wondering where the next mark was, like he was talking with JS.
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Isotope235
On another note, I was surprised to hear USA hail RC and ask if the race was being shortened -- and even more surprised to hear RC reply.


Where was it that you heard the RC reply? I don't recall it. I remember Slingsby on a hot mike wondering where the next mark was, like he was talking with JS.

I heard the RC reply with the information that should sail on and finish at the grandstands. I think USA really thought they were finishing before the last reach.

I was really surprised at the exchange too, for a minute I could really relate to the skipper having no idea what the course was. blush
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:20 PM

Oracle has rudder damage and is trying to repair in time for race. . .
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mn3Again
what are you sailing these days?

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


And I know Jake's already trying to hack ENTZ database to copy their carbon layup schedule on the foil package.... wink


Nah. I'm staying out of all this foiling business until things calm the heck down. I don't need that much more frustration in my life and am happy working on the finer details of rigging/sailing at the moment.



A-cat, F18, and J22. I think I'm going to list the F18 for sale soon because it just doesn't hit the water very often. My a-cat is a 2007 XJ that's super clean and I've updated it with foam decks and modernized some rigging stuff. Otherwise, it's bone stock and fast. I love the boat and have had some good results with it.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 05:41 PM

With regards to the biased reporting, it's sailing. We are a small community and there is ALWAYS some raw emotion when it comes to the America's Cup. They really buttoned up the rules about teams not speaking bad about the cup this iteration and we haven't heard ANY of the usual finger pointing and crying like we usually do (and does Grant Dalton even existing anymore!?).

As far as broadcast reporting, there isn't that much for these guys to hone their skills on but there is definitely room for improvement. I scream at the TV every time they cut to commercial right after the first downwind gate rounding - that's the most critical decision making stage in my mind and I want to see how the teams are setting up against the boundaries for that upwind leg. I do think they are making a conscious decision to keep the coverage simplified so it doesn't overwhelm the common viewer. I agree with the approach and while I DEFINITELY would enjoy seeing more of the nuances that I know of racing, I do think it would be too much and would quickly lose the common viewer that they are trying to attract. I have been having a regular morning debrief with several guys here at work and they are chock full of questions about the racing and the cup history. Hell, we even got into prismatic coefficients this morning. ;-) My point is, they're staying entertained enough to keep coming back and they don't feel like the coverage is lacking - they often comment in the positive about the digital markers on the water and how much easier this is to understand. I think this really is the point.

Gladwell will occasionally get spurned on by something but he will recenter and lean back toward the middle of the road, usually. He came out in Oracle's defense when the allegations of kinetic energy use were lodged from that book a couple of years ago (can't remember the Author's name...I just re-read it again and I still don't understand how you can rotate a 100 foot tall on it's base and generate and increase of forward driving energy from the wind that is already coming across it at 40 knots... It sure as hell doesn't work on my catamaran at 2, 10, or 15 knots and I've never seen a bird fly by rotating his wings around a central axis....but I digress.)

Regarding attendance, we also need to remember that we're just in the early phases of the cup - there's a lot left to go and it is a weekday in Bermuda. If I were scheduling time to go to Bermuda to watch the cup, it wouldn't be right now, either - it would be during one of the later rounds. And, besides, people in Bermuda have to work sometime like the rest of us.

I'm glad that it is the spectacle that it is. I just hope people don't lose interest by the time we get to the finals - it's a LOT of racing densely placed over a pretty big span of time.



Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 06:01 PM

The venue is really stunning though, better than San Francisco since there is no current.
Is Bermuda a "normal" holiday destination for you US guys? I looked into flying from Europe but it was a it too pricey.
Valencia was the perfect AC location for us Euros though, return ticket was only around $200.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

A-cat, F18, and J22. I think I'm going to list the F18 for sale soon because it just doesn't hit the water very often. My a-cat is a 2007 XJ that's super clean and I've updated it with foam decks and modernized some rigging stuff. Otherwise, it's bone stock and fast. I love the boat and have had some good results with it.

The F18 Worlds are held at Sarasota next year, might be a good reason to hold onto it for another year?
https://sarasotasailingsquadron.org/event/2018-f-18-world-championship/
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
what is that regular "klunk" noise on the SWE boat? Something with hydraulics I suppose

It's the wing winch clutch lock.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 06:42 PM

Ken REALLY like his pen laugh
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 07:11 PM

Great racing by Artemis today, beating USA and JPN. Only NZL looked better, achieving the long anticipated 100% fly time. USA made a couple of mistakes and their luck with comebacks finally ran out. Emirates is now in the lead overall and the winner of the potential AC point will be decided in their match with USA. Emirates looks so smooth, though, that I think they are more likely to win.

Either way, FRA is out and NZL will be top seed in the playoffs. I wonder who they will choose to race first? BAR looks like the easiest boat for them to beat. Then again, which one (GBR or JPN) is more likely to beat SWE? Ben Ainslie has been more successful at that in the past but Dean Barker came close today.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 07:21 PM

we're going to need a rule in here about spoiler alerts for those of us that are at work and haven't had a chance to watch today's recording ;-)
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
we're going to need a rule in here about spoiler alerts for those of us that are at work and haven't had a chance to watch today's recording ;-)

Agree! Hard to watch during the day so I was up late watching replays last night and haven't seen any today.

But don't want to spoil the conversation, better for us that can't watch right away to be careful what we read. :-)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
we're going to need a rule in here about spoiler alerts for those of us that are at work and haven't had a chance to watch today's recording ;-)


[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 07:46 PM

Today's presser

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
we're going to need a rule in here about spoiler alerts for those of us that are at work and haven't had a chance to watch today's recording ;-)



Yes, but you DON'T HAVE TO OPEN THIS THREAD!!!

I was lucky to catch on TV and stream. Stream feed is about 2 minutes delayed from TV (not that it matters, but you can watch the stream while the TV has commercials and vice versa)

I am starting to wonder if SWE is USA kryptonite. SWE is blazing fast in moderate conditions (12-16kts TWS), and JPN had trouble pacing. I think JPN is the sister-ship of USA, so when Barker chose not to split on SWE, I wondered if the USA shore teams were eating up that data on the two two boats and their setup/speed/angle and other variables.

NZL seems to have the most consistent ride of the bunch, and it's a thrill to see Burling whip that 50' boat around a tack in less than a boatlength at 28 knots! Talk about some G-force smile

I also think I see some "pumping" by SWE and NZL which I would consider more "sawing the main" than pumping/kinetics.

Did anyone notice SWE wing control winch sounds like a playing card in a kid's bicycle spokes? And their foils make a hell of a racket? You would think that noise = drag but with their downwind speed it's probably a motivator for the crew to keep as fast as possible to get away from that screetch...

Sad to see Cammas so far back, but he's a distance guy anyway... and the team is underfunded. But that's about the only team with several nationals on it, right? I think I saw 2 or 3 Frenchmen on that team.

JPN has one native... Not sure if SWE has any.



I didn't read the DOG, but did I hear from the talking heads that NZL gets to pick who they sail against in the semi-finals? If so, I'd be looking really hard at the forecast... Not sure I'd want to tangle with SWE in heavy air, and I think JPN would be tough in the light since Barker is pretty good on tactics. GBR is the total wild-card since I never can tell what Ben's going to do. Maybe I'd pick them since Burling seems to have a way about getting into people's head and messing with them.

Must have something to do with his "old school" zinc oxide war paint smile

And when this is all over, I'd love to see the comparison on the actual energy output of the pedal vs. coffee grinder stations. I suspect NZL is doing a sh*t-ton more adjusting with Ashby(?) and his little Playstation handset... and the little twisting (rudder elevator?) on the helm...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 08:42 PM

Based on the results Saturday, Oracle could win the point, or tie, or lose the point. So it will be either NZ or Oracle who picks. We're not there yet. Saturday's first race is a big one.

14:08 Bermuda
USA vs NZL

14:37 Bermuda
JPN vs GBR

15:06 Bermuda
FRA vs SWE

15:35 Bermuda
GBR vs USA
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 08:44 PM

Video snapshot of Oracle rudder swap

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/02/17 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Based on the results Saturday, Oracle could win the point, or tie, or lose the point. So it will be either NZ or Oracle who picks. We're not there yet. Saturday's first race is a big one.

I was wrong, Oracle can still win the point but they will not compete in the playoffs. After Saturday we will not see Oracle until the Match.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/03/17 11:52 AM

Today, if Oracle beats NZ, and BAR beats Oracle, then Oracle and NZ are tied. Then, Oracle will win the tie breaker because of their placement (2nd, BAR was 1st)) in the ACWS, and take the coveted point into the match.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/03/17 07:15 PM

So we will find out in the presser who NZ picks to go up against.

Next races are the beginning of the semi finals with 4 races/day.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/03/17 07:47 PM

Presser

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/03/17 08:02 PM

NZ has chosen BAR
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 10:55 AM

Racing today

14:08 Bermuda
NZL vs GBR (R1)

14:37 Bermuda
SWE vs JPN (R1)

15:06 Bermuda
GBR vs NZL (R2)

15:35 Bermuda
JPN vs SWE (R2)
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 11:25 AM

I didn't get to watch yesterday, but skimmed through the replay footage last night. It looked like they used a different course configuration, mid-course single mark leading to the final reaching finish leg?

Did they discuss why they used this (breeze/other), and if they'll use this for the remainder of the racing?

I can see pros and cons, but am just curious.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 12:34 PM

It's going to be interesting to see if the challengers make some improvements over Oracle now that the US team is not racing head to head anymore. I was not aware that the teams are using two different sized foils, one for light air, one for heavy, or that ETNZ had modified their boards with that kink in the middle.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 01:30 PM

Really? The boards are pretty much the only thing (design-wise) that Kenny and company have discussed. I've been pretty disappointed with the lack of technical discussion about the wings and other aspects, but they may not have that info due to the competition.

One thing that Kenny said surprised me: The headsails are one-design? Does he mean spinnakers and jibs? I swear one of the boats had a shorter/fatter jib.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 06:52 PM

I haven't been watching/listening to Kenny (Read?) much but back when the A cats started foiling, I posted thoughts that if this foiling thing catches on, it's going to render our 'Box Rules' based on hull length, weight, sail area pretty much useless.

Who wins the race is going to come down to who has the best foils and has the skill to keep their boat up on the foils the longest. The richest guys in foiling A cats could have multiple sets of foils, one for each increase in wind strength.

If foiling migrates to the other classes (F18/F16) the same issue will migrate too. Foiling renders our box rules pretty much obsolete, as long as you have the money for the best foils and you know how to use them.

When I look around the regattas however, I see the old school Hobie 16 is still one of the most popular in terms of numbers of boats out on the course at most mixed class regattas, so perhaps the F18/F16 classes won't go down the foiling route, which might scare off more people than it attracts, due to expensive foils..

Or maybe there should just be a single 'Foiling Class' for everything that foils, no matter what type of cat the foils are on, and let evolution do it's thing, to eventually produce the fastest foiling cat, be it an A, F16 or F18.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 11:05 PM

Yes, Kenny is Ken Read.

The box rules themselves aren't the problem. It's trying to say that foiling boats can race head-to-head against floaters. It's like adding a spinnaker to a Hobie 16 and letting them race against a stock boat. Just ridiculous, except in conditions when the foils (or spinnakers) can't be used, when they become extra weight and drag.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/04/17 11:10 PM

BTW, all races postponed today, and no one mentions that? Hopefully it's because you were all also on the water this weekend!

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
BTW, all races postponed today, and no one mentions that? Hopefully it's because you were all also on the water this weekend!

Mike

Couldn't watch today (Sunday) was racing cancelled?

The other day when they were racing at the lower limit of wind speed I got really annoyed the way the announcers kept talking about how slow the boats were moving and how boring the racing was.

The wind was about 6 knots and the boats were still foiling and racing at over 20 knots, to me that is more impressive than the 45 knots on windy days.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 12:44 AM

Yes, I checked the official site (after running a regatta today), and all of today's racing is postponed until tomorrow (they never got 6 knots, apparently).

I think the best race so far was the light air race between FRA and GBR. A nail-biter all the way through, as they had to try to foil, or sail fast without foiling until they found a puff. The race ended with a P/S cross at the finish line.

As much as I loathe the thought of ever going back to monoslugs, I do understand the concept that match racing is best with boats that sail at around the same speed, all over the course. It's hard to stay in contact and force engagement and rules infractions when the first boat to round the weather mark (or get onto foils) takes off.

Mike
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mn3Again
what are you sailing these days?

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


And I know Jake's already trying to hack ENTZ database to copy their carbon layup schedule on the foil package.... wink


Nah. I'm staying out of all this foiling business until things calm the heck down. I don't need that much more frustration in my life and am happy working on the finer details of rigging/sailing at the moment.



A-cat, F18, and J22. I think I'm going to list the F18 for sale soon because it just doesn't hit the water very often. My a-cat is a 2007 XJ that's super clean and I've updated it with foam decks and modernized some rigging stuff. Otherwise, it's bone stock and fast. I love the boat and have had some good results with it.





cool
ever get cough in a storm on the a-cat?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mn3Again

cool
ever get cough in a storm on the a-cat?


I've definitely been out in stuff I probably shouldn't have been out in, limped to the lee of an island, dropped sail, and sailed back under mast alone (doing 11 knots). I also Had it out in a distance race a few weeks ago and the wind changed dramatically and started gusting to the upper 20s...and I was on a long a reach wishing like hell the guy ahead of me in 1st place would get off the trapeze so I could justify getting off the trapeze ;-) (definitely found a condition where a pre-foiling DNA with curved boards has an advantage over a straight board A-cat!).
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 01:59 PM

so my next question is: do you ever feel like the light boatweight is an issue? i.e. - in 20+ do you feel less stable / secure than you would on a f18?



Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mn3Again

cool
ever get cough in a storm on the a-cat?


I've definitely been out in stuff I probably shouldn't have been out in, limped to the lee of an island, dropped sail, and sailed back under mast alone (doing 11 knots). I also Had it out in a distance race a few weeks ago and the wind changed dramatically and started gusting to the upper 20s...and I was on a long a reach wishing like hell the guy ahead of me in 1st place would get off the trapeze so I could justify getting off the trapeze ;-) (definitely found a condition where a pre-foiling DNA with curved boards has an advantage over a straight board A-cat!).
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 02:14 PM

Back to AC35 . . .

Today's races

14:08 Bermuda
NZL vs GBR (R1)

14:37 Bermuda
SWE vs JPN (R1)

15:06 Bermuda
GBR vs NZL (R2)

15:35 Bermuda
JPN vs SWE (R2)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:11 PM

This is good read and transcript of Slingsby

"...New Zealand still has the penalty from the boundary. Let ‘em f*ck it up..."

Slingsby the Secret Weapon
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Back to AC35 . . .

Today's races

14:08 Bermuda
NZL vs GBR (R1)

14:37 Bermuda
SWE vs JPN (R1)

15:06 Bermuda
GBR vs NZL (R2)

15:35 Bermuda
JPN vs SWE (R2)



What is the wind forecast?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:32 PM

Okay, so I'm looking at the TV guide and NBC will not be broadcasting the AC races today.

Their streaming app doesn't have it showing either... Their next AC stream will be Tuesday 13:00 EST

So.... any idea how to catch today's racing? Its not critical it be "live", but would be nice to see at some point...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:38 PM

NBC Sucks

Try this around race start time.

BT Sport live feed

Winds are great today and building all week.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
NBC Sucks

Try this around race start time.

BT Sport live feed

Winds are great today and building all week.


Be careful. You might get addicted. They don't show commercials during the race.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:47 PM

AC Official just announced live broadcast due to commence at 14:00 ADT/17 UTC
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:47 PM

is it geo-blocked for us 'mericans?

okay looks like F1 racing now, so it must work.

Races start at 14:00 EST today, right?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:54 PM

13:00 EST
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 03:57 PM

Racing starts in 1 hour 10 minutes. . . so there
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 04:45 PM

Breeze is banging 15+ and NZ just laid the bottom mark in one jybe in a practice run. . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 04:48 PM

Racing is live on NBCSN now . . .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:16 PM

I missed the start, but GBR trailed into the first leeward gate, split sides, then basically stopped before their first tack. They're looking inside the wing, obviously some sort of failure.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:16 PM

BAR just broke one of the control arms within their wings, race over for them...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:25 PM

NZL wins the first race without even finishing. That is definitely a rule change. In 2012 at the ACWS in Newport, there were several matches in which one boat became disabled, but the other had to finish to get the point.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:27 PM

Can BAR change out the wing and be ready in 40 minutes????
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:37 PM

Now Artemis vs Team Japan, speeds are insane right now!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Okay, so I'm looking at the TV guide and NBC will not be broadcasting the AC races today.

Their streaming app doesn't have it showing either... Their next AC stream will be Tuesday 13:00 EST

So.... any idea how to catch today's racing? Its not critical it be "live", but would be nice to see at some point...


the online website for NBC Sports Network is streaming it - I watched just a little of it before having to get back to work. You have to login with your network TV provider info that gives you access to it.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mn3Again
so my next question is: do you ever feel like the light boatweight is an issue? i.e. - in 20+ do you feel less stable / secure than you would on a f18?



Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mn3Again

cool
ever get cough in a storm on the a-cat?


I've definitely been out in stuff I probably shouldn't have been out in, limped to the lee of an island, dropped sail, and sailed back under mast alone (doing 11 knots). I also Had it out in a distance race a few weeks ago and the wind changed dramatically and started gusting to the upper 20s...and I was on a long a reach wishing like hell the guy ahead of me in 1st place would get off the trapeze so I could justify getting off the trapeze ;-) (definitely found a condition where a pre-foiling DNA with curved boards has an advantage over a straight board A-cat!).



MN3, I'll reply to you directly privately (assuming messaging works here) to keep this thread on topic.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:57 PM

JPN beats SWE. They're saying GBR is done for the day, but Kenny believes that NZL needs to at least start the second race.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 05:58 PM

crap just logged in to catch JPN smoking SWE

What happened to Sir Ben to get DSQ? DId he break something?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
crap just logged in to catch JPN smoking SWE

What happened to Sir Ben to get DSQ? DId he break something?


Yes, wing controls.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:06 PM

Bit strange that the 2nd race BAR vs ETNZ will continue without BAR.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:08 PM

will they shorten course for the next races if GBR is out for the day?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Bit strange that the 2nd race BAR vs ETNZ will continue without BAR.

All NZ had to do was start.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:46 PM

Wow, Japan almost lost the lead when Barker tripped and fell mid-gybe eek
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 06:56 PM

JPN and SWE tied 1-1, what a great second race!

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

MN3, I'll reply to you directly privately (assuming messaging works here) to keep this thread on topic.

Thanks Jake,

You an MN3 feel free to start a new separate thread, sounds like a good topic.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 10:49 PM

Today's Presser

Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Today's Presser

Thanks Philip
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/05/17 11:54 PM

Must be tough for Ben. Problems in the round robins, problems in light air, he's involved in pre-start crash, and then first day of playoffs his boat breaks the wing and team is handed two losses with out completing a race, then, then, . . you have to sit through a live interview, . . . WITH . . . . YOUR . . . . . WIFE! smile

Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 12:11 PM

Good thing I'm not a conspiracy theorist, otherwise I may be tempted to think this is all just part of the show...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 01:19 PM

Today's races

14:08 Bermuda
JPN vs SWE (R3)

14:36 Bermuda
GBR v NZL (R3)

15:00 Bermuda
SWE vs JPN (R4)

15:30 Bermuda
NZL vs GBR (R4)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 01:40 PM

Heads UP regarding today and this week's US broadcast.

NBCSN will be broadcasting to the "NBC Sports App" today, Wednesday, and Thurday. I interpret this to mean that there will be no broadcast through your cable, Uverse, dish, etc. provider. You will need to use a streaming app (Roku, FireTV, Nexus Player, web player, Playstation Vue, NBCSN app, etc.). You should also be able to open a browser and go to http://www.nbcsports.com/ and login with your provider username and password. Then you will get exactly the same feed as the broadcast. I've been using this also and it works fine. Again, I believe this to be accurate but you're on your own so be prepared.

Also, America's Cup app for Android and Iphone.

and

BT Sports live feed
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:00 PM

BAR sailed 47.5 knots in practice this morning. With winds building should be an exciting day. Will the 50 knot threshold be shattered?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:06 PM

clicking a solid 20-21 knot wind speed. NZ still on the dock changing out the wing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:08 PM

Lucky for NZ, first race postponed to high winds . . .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:28 PM

Oh no, SWE with some gear problems early in the race (parts flying off, stuffing the boat in too much). They're still going, but JPN is about half a leg ahead now.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:28 PM

Ken Read is nauseating. Put a sock in it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:32 PM

Now JAP boat fairing failing
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:37 PM

SWE retiring near the end of the race, will try to rebuild Humpty Dumpty for the next race. Winds in low 20s.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Now JAP boat fairing failing

Fuji Foiling Fairing Failing. . . .say that 3 times real fast
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:44 PM

GBR and NZL in prestart now. Kiwis sailing with spare wing GBR leads at the start.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:48 PM

BAR very fast downwind.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:49 PM

Burling made a horrible turn (tight and slow) at the first leeward gate, lost a bunch there. Rain squalls coming down the course.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:54 PM

The foils on BAR are much smaller than SWE.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:57 PM

NZL takes the lead on leg 5, after a horrible GBR tack. Then, NZL almost capsizes during their next tack. Amazing race to watch!

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 05:59 PM

good lord these guys barely have control of these boats. If you watch the boat's motion through the water vs. the steering inputs, they aren't that closely linked. Wow. That has to be exhilarating and terrifying. High pucker factor.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
good lord these guys barely have control of these boats. If you watch the boat's motion through the water vs. the steering inputs, they aren't that closely linked. Wow. That has to be exhilarating and terrifying. High pucker factor.

Pretty much paraphrased what Burling said on the hot-mic.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:06 PM

Kenny and company speculating that the Kiwis are having a gear problem, while the boat mic pics up "Pressure coming, so we're happy!" as they're blasting down the course...

3-0, NZL

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:10 PM

Duck Tape. It's magic smile
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:17 PM

SWE way out of control, can't turn downwind, trying to get back onto the course.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:21 PM

Percy is losing his mind, can't shake the penalty. SWE actually was going well coming into the gate.

"I'm going to rip his head off!" Sums it up nicely...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:21 PM

Looks like RC blundered it again. Can't wait for their explanation.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:25 PM

Richard (chief umpire) explaining that they gave SWE a double penalty for going so far out of bounds, saving themselves at least one gybe. Then NZL slowed at the leeward gate, so SWE caught up too much, so they held them until they were back in position.

The presser ought to be interesting...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Richard (chief umpire) explaining that they gave SWE a double penalty for going so far out of bounds, saving themselves at least one gybe. Then NZL slowed at the leeward gate, so SWE caught up too much, so they held them until they were back in position.

The presser ought to be interesting...

Mike

Yet SWE was sailing upwind on the downwind coarse near the boundary. BS!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:38 PM

JPN keeps it together, now leads 3-1. SWE kept it going to the end, good on them.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:45 PM

Offset penalties, BOTH GBR and NZL entering too early! Ainsle owns Burling in the pre-start, NZL capsized!!!!!!!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:46 PM

Oh Sh*t
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:46 PM

massive pitchpole
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:47 PM

Ben turns back to help. Awesome
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 06:59 PM

Everyone seems to be OK. The wing, not so much...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:00 PM

Did NZ have damage to their first wing that they changed out earlier? . . . 'cause they're gonna need it.
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:07 PM

Yikes! Lots of styrofoam souvenirs in the Bermuda waters.

These boats have proven they are really strong though, despite all the aero pieces coming off, no wing collapse and can be righted with a single chase boat.

The technique of pulling it into the wind rather than pulling from the top hull over is pretty slick too. Glad they didn't cut away and we got to see the whole process.

Couldn't believe the three guys on the top hull just stayed crouched in the hull the whole time, they must have had a lot of faith the wing wouldn't break and send them crashing under the boat.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:13 PM

yikes~
that looks expensive
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Did NZ have damage to their first wing that they changed out earlier? . . . 'cause they're gonna need it.

I don't think they ever said why they had to change it. The announcers probably didn't know.

The wing looked structurally, they might be able to replace the lost foam and stretch some new heat shrink and be good to go.

The real question is how on earth did NZL manage to make a mistake like that, they have been a machine.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:31 PM

Looks like they turned deep down with no speed, and the wing was eased a lot. That combination will load up the bow, or more in this case lift the transom. Then no rudder to hold it down and the foils drive it into Davey Jones locker. A timing thing between Burling and wing trimmer and foil rake.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 07:58 PM

Much anticipated Presser. Burling did not show up.

Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 08:25 PM

Wow, that was pretty short. They looked tired and perhaps happy to be off the water.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 08:58 PM

The answer to the first wing for NZ was damage to the lower flap. (per Burling in conference)
Here is the Burling press conference

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 09:02 PM

Top speed reached by BAR in race one today: 47.7 knots
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 09:02 PM

I just rewatched the start of GBR/NZL. I don't think that GBR entered early (although the umpires did call that as an offsetting penalty for NZL). Looked like they were a length or two away from the box at 2:00, at least on the TV timer.

PM, Ainsle most certainly didn't turn back to help. He slowed, looked to be sure his chase boat was responding, and kept going. He actually told his crew that they were still racing until the RC or umps would call and award the point. That didn't happen, so he radioed in, and when told he had the win, they sailed to the dock. I am glad that he showed some concern for the NZL crew during the post-race onboard interview, especially after his horrible lack of such comment during the presser after nearly killing or disabling several guys on JPN in the opening series.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 09:15 PM

Thanks for the presser links! Quote of the day, from Burling: "Those three guys were able to safely get off of the yacht." So that's what we're calling it now?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I just rewatched the start of GBR/NZL. I don't think that GBR entered early (although the umpires did call that as an offsetting penalty for NZL). Looked like they were a length or two away from the box at 2:00, at least on the TV timer.

PM, Ainsle most certainly didn't turn back to help. He slowed, looked to be sure his chase boat was responding, and kept going. He actually told his crew that they were still racing until the RC or umps would call and award the point. That didn't happen, so he radioed in, and when told he had the win, they sailed to the dock. I am glad that he showed some concern for the NZL crew during the post-race onboard interview, especially after his horrible lack of such comment during the presser after nearly killing or disabling several guys on JPN in the opening series.

Mike

He immediately turned head to wind and parked before getting to the reaching mark, as soon as he learned of the capsize. This happened before before he radioed RC. Call it what you want. I guess Ben is s total smuck.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/06/17 10:37 PM

I don't know about you guys but I find the penalty system very confusing.
It's not always clear when a penalty will be cleared, it's just too complicated for the average viewer IMO.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I don't know about you guys but I find the penalty system very confusing.
It's not always clear when a penalty will be cleared, it's just too complicated for the average viewer IMO.


It's clearly too confusing for the guys on the boats too - I felt the rage with Iain Percy...I would have been dropping even a few more f-bombs. Having to slow down relative to the other boat is a real flaw in that penalty system in my opinion. Assuming that Barker noticed that Artemis had a penalty it gives him the opportunity to just let off the gas until Artemis slows down even MORE and Artemis has a real problem clearing the penalty. Artemis has to slow down to be two boat lengths further behind the other boat than she was when she earned the penalty. Artemis got a second penalty because of the way they judged their late turn once they sailed out of the boundary (although it looked clear that they were having some real difficulty and that it probably was not a tactical maneuver). Artemis then did drop their hulls down to the water for a good portion of that downwind leg trying to clear the penalty but Barker also slowed way down - it might have even been a tactical move to set Artemis up for an additional compounding penalty. Who knows if Artemis could even see Barker slow down - all they knew was that their penalty wouldn't clear. As I understand it at that point, if they don't clear the penalty when they round the next mark, they get ANOTHER penalty...so they just kept stacking up for Artemis and all they knew was that the f'in blue light wouldn't go off.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 11:09 AM

Another point - one very good solid reason why they have one-design wings. Safety. If the wing design had been up to the individual design teams, everyone would have taken the designs to the structural edge with every regard toward speed and lightness. Having the mast stay in one piece during a capsize wouldn't have been in the design criteria. The AC Authority got this aspect completely correct.
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 12:18 PM

A question about the penalties. I know other team will know when you receive a penalty but do they know when you've been released from it?
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 12:38 PM

The part of the press conference that I enjoyed the most was when Nathan Outteridge said Artemis was trying to take the penalty, but 40 knots was as slow as they could safely sail.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 12:43 PM

I was amazed the mast (wing) and the rigging holding it in place held up for the righting, perhaps they did design for that .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 01:12 PM

Philip, I only call what I see. You said GBR turned back, which to me means, stop racing and sail back to pull bodies from the water (as we mere mortals do every weekend if necessary). I agree that he slowed and looked back, but that's a very different animal.

And just so you don't think I hate Ben for this, I agree that it would have been more dangerous for them to sail back to the crash scene. The power boats are there for that.

For the record, I'll always think that Burling should have retired after the SWE race with the bad umpire call. Yes, in the heat of the moment he panicked and pushed the button, but could have redeemed himself with greater sportsmanship afterwards.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I was amazed the mast (wing) and the rigging holding it in place held up for the righting, perhaps they did design for that .



I wonder if the forces on the wing are greatest while foiling, floating ("displacement mode"), gybing or capsized. The water was pretty flat, and didn't look too uncomfortable to be capsized there.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Philip, I only call what I see. You said GBR turned back,

Mike, you missed the narrative and you are nit-picking, and clearly taking words out of context. I stand behind my words. They stopped racing. Fact. They proceeded in their protocol for this safety event. Fact.

Listen to this.

2:22 mark

then go back and watch the boat's tracks on the virtual eye replay, which clear shows them stopping to assist.

So to edit my words to satisfy your delusional interpretation of what everyone else gets, I shall state that "BAR stopped to assist".

And let me add, my feelings at the time was that these pros put safety first, that they are a band of brothers, and I found it extremely honorable that BAR immediately stopped racing and went into ASSIST mode.

Therefore, WOW !!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:06 PM

Good stuff here.
Race Day 3 action-shots
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:08 PM

Distructive Day Video

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:09 PM

Image gallery - Pitchpole and righting sequence
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:12 PM

Good info

Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:15 PM

Ben Ainslie battles to keep America’s Cup dream alive
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:20 PM

Today's races

14:08 Bermuda
NZL vs GBR (R5)

14:36 Bermuda
SWE vs JPN (R5)

15:06 Bermuda
GBR vs NZL* (R6)

15:35 Bermuda
JPN vs SWE* (R6)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 02:32 PM

High winds and building. We could see postponements due to upper wind limit.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 03:31 PM

Picture from the race course right now, looks way windier than yesterday
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 04:29 PM

Under postponement and monitoring wind and sea-state.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 04:51 PM

We are done. Racing postponed for the day.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 06:08 PM

Have they come up with an upper and lower wind limit to start and or abandon a race yet? I haven't heard one mentioned...yet, but after yesterday's wipeout they might come up with one.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 06:26 PM

Its all in the rules: https://www.americascup.com/en/news/2583_KNOW-THE-ESSENTIALS-AMERICAS-CUP-RULES-101.html

6-24 kts, taken as a 5 minute average between 8 and 3 minutes before the start.

I feel for TNZ on this one, but the damage could have been much, much worse. I'm sure they will be back out there tomorrow.

The safety of the one design aspect of the boats certainly shone through yesterday, but I still don't entirely agree with this. The one design beams I'm okay with, the one deisgn #1 element on the wing I am sort of okay with, the rest not really. FYI the #2 element (trailing edge flap) and wing controls are not one design and open to interpretation. My understanding is only the structural main element mast is really strictly one design. I think TNZ would have gone with more margin in the hulls rather than relying on Oracles lower volume prescribed hull design, if given the flexibility there. Would it have saved them? No, they were on the foils going down the mine and it was too late by the time the bows hit. If anything a bigger bow section would have hurt. The emphasis on the controls and foils clearly favor Oracle, who have more experience than any other team besides the less well funded TNZ campaign. I understand the AC is never very fair but I preferred the run what you bring and your wallet can swallow over this glorified AC45F racing. Frankly the same level of racing could be had with a box/open rule AC45F.

I'm really disappointed Oracle sailed in the initial LV challenger series. I think that was rather unfair and unsportsman like. I'm also not okay with the 1 boat rule for the challengers. That clearly favors Oracle whom I suspect have a second boat in the shed just in case (with the amount of money thrown around, why wouldn't you?). One designing the major structural elements of the boat made it pretty feasible that a second boat could be built on the cheap. This puts Oracle in a position to effectively force races in conditions that are otherwise very hairy and marginal, yesterday wasn't deadly but it was a bit marginal. By the time the challenger gets through to the finals, they will likely have done some damage to their race stead and be operating at a higher weight as a result. Far from ideal if it goes light, but good for Oracle!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 06:56 PM

It's not an easy balance. They need more teams, or no one will watch/care. The teams have stated (over and over) that cost is a major obstacle. That's the reason for the one-boat rule, and the size/design itself. They tried to minimize how much design each team would need to develop and fund. I too was disappointed when they announced 50 footers.

Conspiracy theorists may say otherwise.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 06:57 PM

Philip, let's just sat that we agree to disagree on Ben's actions and intent yesterday. It's certainly not personal. Thanks for all the great links and posts.

Mike
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 07:22 PM

I couldn't watch anything today. Was NZ back out on course? Any more info on the repairs they needed to make? Having two wings that both need repairs would put a huge strain on them. Unless of course they have a third one.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 07:23 PM

No racing, too much wind. Not sure if anyone went out earlier in the day.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/07/17 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Its all in the rules: https://www.americascup.com/en/news/2583_KNOW-THE-ESSENTIALS-AMERICAS-CUP-RULES-101.html

6-24 kts, taken as a 5 minute average between 8 and 3 minutes before the start.

I feel for TNZ on this one, but the damage could have been much, much worse. I'm sure they will be back out there tomorrow.

The safety of the one design aspect of the boats certainly shone through yesterday, but I still don't entirely agree with this. The one design beams I'm okay with, the one deisgn #1 element on the wing I am sort of okay with, the rest not really. FYI the #2 element (trailing edge flap) and wing controls are not one design and open to interpretation. My understanding is only the structural main element mast is really strictly one design. I think TNZ would have gone with more margin in the hulls rather than relying on Oracles lower volume prescribed hull design, if given the flexibility there. Would it have saved them? No, they were on the foils going down the mine and it was too late by the time the bows hit. If anything a bigger bow section would have hurt. The emphasis on the controls and foils clearly favor Oracle, who have more experience than any other team besides the less well funded TNZ campaign. I understand the AC is never very fair but I preferred the run what you bring and your wallet can swallow over this glorified AC45F racing. Frankly the same level of racing could be had with a box/open rule AC45F.

I'm really disappointed Oracle sailed in the initial LV challenger series. I think that was rather unfair and unsportsman like. I'm also not okay with the 1 boat rule for the challengers. That clearly favors Oracle whom I suspect have a second boat in the shed just in case (with the amount of money thrown around, why wouldn't you?). One designing the major structural elements of the boat made it pretty feasible that a second boat could be built on the cheap. This puts Oracle in a position to effectively force races in conditions that are otherwise very hairy and marginal, yesterday wasn't deadly but it was a bit marginal. By the time the challenger gets through to the finals, they will likely have done some damage to their race stead and be operating at a higher weight as a result. Far from ideal if it goes light, but good for Oracle!


Jesus some of you guys are a buzz kill! I seriously doubt Oracle has a second boat. There's not THAT much hangar space out there and they would get called out on that in very short order if they pulled something like that out of the shed. lol.

This has been a fantastic event so far. Oracle was in the first round robin series and it has been controversial. Questions should be asked and discussed - no harm in that. It was the compromise to reducing cost by going to one boat campaigns - Oracle has no second boat to race against and test with and the other teams thought it unfair if Oracle was allowed to have two boats and they weren't.
It would be really obscene to expect Oracle to have no opportunity to race head to head against anybody and go straight into the final round. I would be over pretty fast and it would seriously negatively impact their chances of holding the cup. Oracle needed something in exchange for reducing the campaign cost by agreeing to one boat (and let's face it, Larry Ellison would probably fork out the money pretty fast for a second boat if he could). It sounds reasonable to me.

The camera footage and video assembly has been OUTSTANDING. The summary of yesterday is chill inducing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3rd9rjKKx4)

I think they do have some real calculating to do on the best way to assign and clear penalties. It's been a real point of contention in several races. I think they need to go back and eventually reconsider some sort of course changing maneuver instead of the GPS derived thing...cross a beam reach and come back to course or something...maybe these boats turn fast enough now that a 360 is reasonable (though I kinda doubt it)...or maybe even just an easy to understand flat-out finish time penalty for each incursion (5, 10 seconds?).


Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 12:26 AM

Finish time penalty may make the most sense. I've thought of an opposite-direction half-turn (gybe if you're going up wind, tack if going downwind) as an alternate penalty, but that would be way too dangerous in winds over 20.

Mike
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 01:24 AM

Here's a good one...

Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 02:36 AM

We need that Irish dude from the Olympics to do the play calls on days with yesterday's wind!

Mike
Posted By: JeffS

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 03:08 AM

Bwahahaha would be awesome
Posted By: samc99us

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 12:21 PM

I'm pretty aware of the dock space in Bermuda, having been on the grounds of the team bases several times. I just find it hard to believe they, the defenders, don't have a second boat but I'm also likely to be wrong this cup cycle. I'm willing to bet they have everything for a second boat in the shed, it just might not be fully assembled.

The defenders had plenty of practice race opportunities on the great sound before the competition began. To say they had no real racing opportunity prior to the start of the real competition is a falsehood. They didn't need to sail in the Louis Vutton series to learn what they already knew going in or watching from afar like every other defender, including themselves, have done in the past 166 years of cup tradition. They sailed in it to take a 1 point lead in the AC finals. Not particularly fair if you ask me, but the AC has never been about fairness.

I do agree the race footage, when you can get it, has been spectacular!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 12:32 PM

I've had zero problems getting footage, live or replay, via NBCSN, on PC and Android, also live on TV when I'm home. I'm​ not getting Virtual Eye, but don't care.

We desperately need a defender series. Did AUS, NZL or Alinghi have defender series during their tenure?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 02:58 PM

Forecast for today?

I just found a site calling for low teens in the afternoon. Not sure if that's reliable.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 03:59 PM

winds 11-13 knots. Perfect day to race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 04:27 PM

Cool. Go Artemis!!!

Three races per pair scheduled​. This round could end today.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 05:31 PM

16 knots of breeze at the start, boat speeds over 40 knots at the first mark!

NZL with some sort of issue (of lack of confidence?) at the start, handed GBR a huge lead, but NZL was ridiculous on the foils, making GBR look like amateurs in their roundings. NZL passed on the final beat, never looked back.

I don't care what the commentators say, GBR should have covered and given a better fight. This is match racing, and sometimes the slower boat can win.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 05:54 PM

SWE with a great setup and defense in the pre-start, but slow to the line. JPN over early, and SWE capitalized. JPN went for a split at the first leeward gate, but SWE gybed to cover! Great match race happening here, Ainsle should pay attention...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 05:58 PM

Artemis takes Race 5, score 3-2. Awesome!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 06:13 PM

Ben seems to have gotten the message, covering much tighter in this one. Just let NZL tack away, though...

GBR sailing much better than NZL so far in this one

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 06:24 PM

Ainsle got one! Just needs to sweep the next three...

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 07:04 PM

Think Sir Ben might be a little aggressive on this last race?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 07:08 PM

Artemis takes the second to tie 3-3!!!

Ainsle is hosed early in this one...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 07:59 PM

Game over for GBR.

Unbelievable third race between SWE and JPN, SWE forces a penalty at the last windward gate, and sweeps the day! Barker looking pretty dejected after that.

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Game over for GBR.

Unbelievable third race between SWE and JPN, SWE forces a penalty at the last windward gate, and sweeps the day! Barker looking pretty dejected after that.

Mike

Really close racing. That port/starboard overlap situation at the mark was terrifying at those speeds, both boats could have been destroyed.

I think watching that replay may convince some people (that matter) that some new rules are needed for foiling sailboats.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 08:47 PM

Nathan did an amazing job of stopping that boat. That had major T-bone written all over it. I still can't believe that NZL forced that situation in the zone. Really, really bad idea.

I just listened to the on-water post-race interview with Burling from the first race today. Apparently, right before the start, the port board came up (on its own). They had to nearly stop to get it back down, which is how Ainsle got that giant lead. NZL then just stayed focused and ran him down. Amazing.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 09:03 PM

Onboard GBR after their last finish, Ainsle said to his crew, "F-ing button got me." Any idea what he's talking about? He set them up for a horrible pre-start, after losing 4 of the prior 6. Now's he's going to blame the boat???

He was trying to walk it back afterwards, but WOW.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 09:27 PM

In the presser...

Ainsle announced that Land Rover and 11th Hour have re-signed for the next campaign.

He did blame the boat several times, in several ways (new team, having to catch up with technology, etc.).

Of course this is easy to say from here, but he needs to watch the footage. They need to spend more time on the water practicing how to stay on the foils all the way around.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm pretty aware of the dock space in Bermuda, having been on the grounds of the team bases several times. I just find it hard to believe they, the defenders, don't have a second boat but I'm also likely to be wrong this cup cycle. I'm willing to bet they have everything for a second boat in the shed, it just might not be fully assembled.

The defenders had plenty of practice race opportunities on the great sound before the competition began. To say they had no real racing opportunity prior to the start of the real competition is a falsehood. They didn't need to sail in the Louis Vutton series to learn what they already knew going in or watching from afar like every other defender, including themselves, have done in the past 166 years of cup tradition. They sailed in it to take a 1 point lead in the AC finals. Not particularly fair if you ask me, but the AC has never been about fairness.

I do agree the race footage, when you can get it, has been spectacular!


FYI, even team on team testing before the actual event was extremely limited by the rules
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
In the presser...

Ainsle announced that Land Rover and 11th Hour have re-signed for the next campaign.

He did blame the boat several times, in several ways (new team, having to catch up with technology, etc.).

Of course this is easy to say from here, but he needs to watch the footage. They need to spend more time on the water practicing how to stay on the foils all the way around.

Mike


True, that hurt - they were also constantly at least a knot lower in boat speed compared with the kiwis on most angles of sail.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Damon Linkous
Originally Posted by brucat
Game over for GBR.

Unbelievable third race between SWE and JPN, SWE forces a penalty at the last windward gate, and sweeps the day! Barker looking pretty dejected after that.

Mike

Really close racing. That port/starboard overlap situation at the mark was terrifying at those speeds, both boats could have been destroyed.

I think watching that replay may convince some people (that matter) that some new rules are needed for foiling sailboats.


At first blush, I was surprised that Japan got the penalty there. Artemis looked like they turned really wide for the mark...Japan had to sail outside the two boat length zone to avoid the collision and I thought they gave Artemis just enough room (not a ton mind you - but it looked like they had enough). I'll have to re-watch and digest again. Again, like the other zone situation that Artemis was in last week, Japan would have been better served just to sail around the mark and stay outside the zone (keeping it straight up port/starboard). They would have passed Artemis as they slowed in the tack and been gone.

Totally agree Damon, these mark rounding (and penalty serving) rules need some tweaking for these boat speeds and handling capabilities....and I think the judges need some practice somehow too. I can't imagine having to make those snap decisions on all the new situations that are presenting themselves at these speeds.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/08/17 11:59 PM

They took forever to make the call, so I don't think they winged it. I agree with the call, watched it over a few times, and there was no way, even if they could have started turning sooner, that the result would have changed. I was stunned that there wasn't any impact.

I agree, and said it before, in those situations with the speed of these boats, you basically need to stay outside of the zone to give enough room.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 01:08 AM

Today's ​presser.



Looking at the comments, Ainsle has gathered a lot of support. I'm still having trouble coming around....

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Today's ​presser.



Looking at the comments, Ainsle has gathered a lot of support. I'm still having trouble coming around....

Mike


Personally, I like him. He's got a history of being a bit of a hot head but he has really been a respectable leader of that team and it's hard to not respect a fierce competitor. Team GBR certainly would not exist if not for Sir Ben.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 01:54 AM

That is true, and I like him more than Burling, but that's not saying much.

I think I've always liked Barker, and I'm really impressed with Nathan.

I'm on the fence with Spithill, just for the record, LOL...

Speaking of whom, has Oracle been sailing in their off-time, especially in the heavy stuff?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 12:14 PM

Wind forecast upper teens this afternoon. SWE needs one more win to advance. JPN needs to sweep two or they're going home.

Mike
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Again, like the other zone situation that Artemis was in last week, Japan would have been better served just to sail around the mark and stay outside the zone (keeping it straight up port/starboard). They would have passed Artemis as they slowed in the tack and been gone.


I'm not well versed in the rules so I'll ask a dumb question: if Japan had stayed out of the zone then they wouldn't have had to give room and then there would have been no penalty? They were not very far from being out of the zone, another 5-10 feet and it could have been a very different result.

BTW that took some big ones to pull off!


Attached picture JPN SW.jpg
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 02:53 PM

That penalty on JPN was pretty hard to tell - glad I'm not a judge...

Closing speeds were enormous. Center of rotation on these boats is somewhere around the foil, but there is side slip and other factors to consider.

Is causing a nose-dive because of a super-sharp turn to avoid another boat considered "seamanlike fashion"? Can I close the door at A-mark such that a port-tacker has to "crash tack" to avoid me?

I mean, I can see NZL making some of their tacks in what appears to be 1/2 boatlength, but this was a 270 degree turn around an obstruction.

Given the fact, too, that you can't throw the helm over without a foil being down, among other things in the turning sequence...

So does the umpire have to consider "seaman like fashion" the whole process (foil down, wing trim, crew movement) when determining the room to tack? Or a set distance (say 1 boatlength) from the mark?

If it's the process, then I can see it takes several boatlengths to change tack if you start from foil lowering to opposite foil retraction.

If it's just "start-of-turn" type judgement then I think Nathan went a little long before throwing the helm (to draw the foul)


Now Barker didn't have the benefit of that big yellow circle around the mark, and may have actually thought he'd sail up an over Outerage... while keeping the door closed as much as feasible.

At 30 kts closing speed, it may be difficult to judge just how much room someone needs... Especially when that big giant spear-like carbon sprit is pointing RIGHT AT YOU going 20 kts smile
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
Originally Posted by Jake
Again, like the other zone situation that Artemis was in last week, Japan would have been better served just to sail around the mark and stay outside the zone (keeping it straight up port/starboard). They would have passed Artemis as they slowed in the tack and been gone.


I'm not well versed in the rules so I'll ask a dumb question: if Japan had stayed out of the zone then they wouldn't have had to give room and then there would have been no penalty? They were not very far from being out of the zone, another 5-10 feet and it could have been a very different result.

BTW that took some big ones to pull off!



Absolutely right. If they were outside the zone (which wasn't far), it would have been a simple port/starboard I do believe.

I did a little more reading this morning and they really hacked up the match racing version of Rule 18 for this event. I was working on some of the edit revisions and I'm not completely sure this is in the final version, but rule 18.3 seems to turn off the bit where the inside overlap boat needs to round the mark tightly if it's a gate. They only need to round the mark tightly if it's a mark....The marks at the top of the course are a gate....so sounds like Sweden knew the rules there and didn't need to make a close turn to the top mark...just needed to stay in the zone.(assuming this made it to the final revision...I'll keep digging).

edit; I got to the final version and it did get some other changes...I've updated it here - the same point exists...the overlap and tacking and sailing "no further than needed from the mark" ONLY applies at a mark and not a gate.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...ub3RpY2Vib2FyZHxneDpiMWU3ZmY2OWY2ZGQ1OWI

Official version:

Quote
18.3 Tacking or Gybing

When an inside overlapped right-of-way yacht must tack or gybe at a mark to sail her

proper course, until she tacks or gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed

to sail that course. Rule 18.3 does not apply at a gate mark or a finishing mark, and a

yacht shall not be penalized for breaking this rule unless the course of another yacht was

affected by the breach of this rule.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 04:08 PM

Just as in the regular racing rules, AC rule 18 applies when "...at least one of them is in the zone".

Unlike the regular racing rules, AC rule 18 does apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. The definition of overlap is different too, so the boats were overlapped.

Therefore, JPN was obligated to give SWE "mark-room", even if she never entered the zone (which is 3 boat-lengths from the mark) herself.

The AC rules, however, define "mark-room" as "room for a yacht to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side. If room includes a change of tack, such tack or gybe shall be done no quicker than a tack or gybe to sail her proper course."

Therefore:

(1) Even though rule 18.3 does not apply at a gate mark, JPN only needed to give SWE enough room to sail her proper course, and

(2) JPN could not force SWE to tack quicker than she would to sail her proper course.

I think the umpires called a penalty on JPN because SWE had to tack more quickly than she would have in the absence of JPN (and therefore JPN did not give SWE mark-room).

Both the penalty on SWE in her race against NZL, and the penalty on JPN vs. SWE could have been avoided had the outside boat sailed a little wider around the mark. In both cases, the penalty decided (most likely changed) the outcome of the race.

Match racing is supposed to be aggressive and close boat-on-boat maneuvering, but getting a bit too aggressive, and too close can be catastrophic.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 04:17 PM

Thanks Jake.

I was listening to an interview and Outerage said that they were really practicing this exact situation and had thoroughly discussed it as late as that morning. He also said that he couldn't really see the other boat at all, just a black blur through a small window in the jib.

I think that Barker made an error having to dodge the first mark up the course that cost them a bit of the lead, possibly enough difference that Sweden was able to get close enough to create the penalty situation. If he had waited slightly longer to tack then he would have cleared the mark and not been dodging. These races come down to the smallest of differences, one error leads to another.

Of course, I say this from my arm chair and not at 30-40 knots with my heart hammering.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 04:55 PM

winds 18.3 knots 19 peak @ 193
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
Thanks Jake.

I was listening to an interview and Outerage said that they were really practicing this exact situation and had thoroughly discussed it as late as that morning. He also said that he couldn't really see the other boat at all, just a black blur through a small window in the jib.

I think that Barker made an error having to dodge the first mark up the course that cost them a bit of the lead, possibly enough difference that Sweden was able to get close enough to create the penalty situation. If he had waited slightly longer to tack then he would have cleared the mark and not been dodging. These races come down to the smallest of differences, one error leads to another.

Of course, I say this from my arm chair and not at 30-40 knots with my heart hammering.


Eric, thanks for that continued interpretation - I'm still learning how they're using rules here....the history of their amendments is pretty fascinating. http://noticeboard.acracemgt.com/home/racing-rules/rrsac-changes

Kent, they were really stuck with that tack. I don't think they could go any further because of the boundary but I agree that mark seemed to have surprised them and certainly wasn't helpful. Good to know that even the professionals make that mistake ;-)....and also a good indicator about how much of a difference those little mistakes make.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:08 PM

Here we go, 20-21 knots of breeze, JPN very aggressive at the start!


Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:14 PM

I hate that one of these boats is going home today, what an awesome first upwind leg!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:28 PM

Game over, day over, semi-finals over. SWE moves on after one race today.

Barker made a critical error on the first beat, SWE took them up, passed and never looked back.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:34 PM

Very surprised to see Barker tack on top of SWE. He typically doesn't make those kinds of mistakes.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:35 PM

Speculation is that JPN hit something hard with their boards on the way out to the course, but it didn't seem to affect their boat speed

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 05:41 PM

SWE looks very fast in heavy air and their consistency is improving.

I suspect the "Kiwi biker gang" v "singing swedes" (man that boat makes noise!) will be a true display of the question regarding outright speed vs. consistency.

Although I think Nathan really read and understood the rule book... I have no doubt that Barker is taking note of that.


Now that JPN is out, can they two-boat test USA with it?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 07:12 PM

Nathan and Dean's Press Conference
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 07:39 PM

Racing Saturday

14:00 Bermuda
Challenger Playoffs Final Races 1-3

First team to win 5 races is the Challenger.

Lighter winds in the forecast
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/09/17 10:24 PM

Awesome presser, two really likeable guys.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:06 PM

Forecast for 10-12 knots at the start of the first race, dying breeze later today. Apparently a front came through and the breeze is all over the map (in terms of velocity).

Nathan says he's using light air boards, and thinks NZL will be using heavy air boards. Ought to be interesting.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:13 PM

SWE port entry, on time. NZL a few seconds late into the box. Lots of floating in the uneventful pre-start, SWE on foils first and won the start by a bunch!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:17 PM

SWE led to the first leeward gate, NZL doesn't split. They just tacked, but SWE didn't cover right away. Neither boat did a foiling tack.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:19 PM

SWE may have just royally screwed themselves. Leading across on port, they tacked to leebow instead of crossing and going for the next starboard advantage.

And now, as I'm typing that, they just sailed past the boundary. Yikes...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:30 PM

1-0 NZL
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:55 PM

Race 2 start (NBC ran ads over the first half of the pre-start????!!!!)...

Very aggressive by both boats, NZL defended against a hook, came in too early, tacked away to gap off. SWE first to the line, NZL tried to roll, but SWE luffed them away, led all the way to the leeward gate.

Split at the bottom, SWE tacked to cover. This will be a critical leg.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:56 PM

Both boats tacked over to port, SWE in good controlling position at the moment.

NZL tacked to stbd early of the boundary, SWE went to the limit.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:58 PM

SWE holding a good lead, tacked on top of NZL coming into the top gate. Very well done.

Kenny said both boats changed some crew members between races. Looks like SWE may have changed tactics as well?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 05:59 PM

NZL didn't go for the split. Interesting...

SWE doing well, they just need to stay clean and fast. NZL may have gained on the run.

Last beat, NZL followed SWE to the right side of the leeward gate. Very odd.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:03 PM

Percy talking about hitting them hard on the next tack (close cover). Finally, the light bulb has come on...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:05 PM

Setting up for a split at the final windward gate, SWE should have one fewer tack to make.

Split at that gate. SWE setting themselves up for a port crossing further down the leg. Oh boy...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:09 PM

Whew! SWE managed to make the gate without a close cross or another gybe. We're tied 1-1!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:30 PM

Race 3 pre-start underway. Very aggressive early.

Early coming back, NZL to leeward, looking like a reversal of Race 2, but SWE with better speed than NZL, and roll over the top to lead into Mark 1!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:33 PM

SWE led to the leeward gate, NZL gybed away to go for a split. SWE didn't tack to cover.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:34 PM

Coming back together, SWE in the lead on STBD, but not by enough to tack and cover, so they're both heading for the boundaries. NZL will be on stbd for the next cross. Oh boy...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:35 PM

SWE crosses on port! SWE will now enjoy a slight righty going to the windward gate.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:37 PM

Wow, virtual tie at the weather gate. SWE crossed and went to the left mark, NZL split, and will have the stbd advantage on the next leeward cross, but SWE got into better pressure and extend.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:39 PM

SWE looking VERY sloppy coming into the leeward gate, NZL slowed a bit, virtually tied now. Split at the leeward gate, NZL going right and will have stbd advantage next. SWE looking OK (barely), and have cleanly crossed. Wow...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:41 PM

SWE on stbd for this cross, ahead enough to not bother hunting, NZL will be on stbd next. 700 meters to the weather gate, virtually tied again. I don't like this for SWE.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:43 PM

Both have tacked, SWE lost a crew member into the water!!!!!

NATHAN FELL OVERBOARD WHILE IN THE LEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NZL will win this one.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:46 PM

2-1 NZL.

Nathan slid right past his cock-pit when he ran across during the tack. Unbelievable.

Mike

EDIT: Why is _ c o c k p i t _ an auto-edited word???
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 06:50 PM

Burling thinks he would have won that race regardless, I'm not so sure. I think SWE had position to come into the weather gate on port, but inside like the other day against JPN. Sure would have been fun to watch.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/10/17 07:29 PM

today's presser
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 12:15 AM

Just for fun, I went back and watched some of the 2000 America's Cup racing. Talk about watching paint dry. :-)

Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 03:29 AM

Cockpit
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
2-1 NZL.

EDIT: Why is _ c o c k p i t _ an auto-edited word???


Overzealous wildcard on censor, fixed it

Cockpit cockpit
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 01:43 PM

Today foil selection could be critical. Light winds in the forecast.


Challenger Playoffs Final Races 4-6

14:12 Bermuda
Race 4: New Zealand vs Sweden

14:51 Bermuda
Race 5: Sweden vs New Zealand

15:30 Bermuda
Race 6: New Zealand vs Sweden

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 01:49 PM

Righting a capsized catamaran
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 04:58 PM

Got to say that the BT Sports coverage has been excellent. They have had a lot of coverage and interviews during non racing scheduled time, plus you get the pre-starts and no interruptions during the race.

Todd Harris- much better than 4 years ago. He's palpable.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:14 PM

not much room at the bottom of the course before they run out of water!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
He's palpable.


you can physically feel him? :-).. Pretty sure you mean palatable
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:17 PM

Kiwis definitely have their light air setup installed...in not light air for now.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:27 PM

wow...Artemis just couldn't leave it with an easy win!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.
He's palpable.


you can physically feel him? :-)..

Only with a baseball bat. smile

I was thinking adjective #1
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:31 PM

Amazing they didn't go over or damage the fairings.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:32 PM

SWE is fast and their VMG is better. Oracle and JPN are two boat practice racing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:36 PM

After watching the 2000 AC race that Jake posted and watching the last race, who would want to go back to monos.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:36 PM

What a nail-biter! SWE will literally live to see another day. Can't wait to hear what went wrong after that tack. Amazed they didn't pick up a penalty, looked like they were out of control and came down hard on NZL twice.

Burling needs to learn how to start. Also, his forward cyclist needs to get off the boat, he looked awful.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 05:44 PM

BT Sports interviews the skippers post race, Nathan's answer to the tack blunder, "just wanted to keep it interesting"
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 06:15 PM

Well, they did it again at the start of Race 5, SWE is just too good for Burling.

But, SWE appears to be back up to their old tricks with bad tactics, and NZL just sailed away.

SWE appears to be having trouble getting their stbd board to come up quickly?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 06:18 PM

....And as I type that, SWE retires from Race 5, all the king's horsemen are trying to salvage this for Race 6.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 07:15 PM

In the interview with BT Sports, Iain Percy just stated that the button to control foil rake was stuck on "max positive rake".

Unfortunately schitty that NBCSN doesn't cover any of these little details. . . .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 07:16 PM

Race 7, more of the same. SWE wins the race to mark 1, and NZL keep it close, until they eventually pass. It got exciting at the last gate before the finish as NZL got off their foils during a horrible gybe, and SWE nearly beat them to the finish.

But, it's 4-2, NZL going into tomorrow. SWE need to win 3 straight.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
In the interview with BT Sports, Iain Percy just stated that the button to control foil rake was stuck on "max positive rake".

Unfortunately schitty that NBCSN doesn't cover any of these little details. . . .



NBC totally sucks. We're forced to listen to old-school commentators opining about their Glory days when 0.1 knot of boatspeed mattered. I have tons of respect for Kenny and Cayard, but they're being put into a position where they can only lose.

How about never comparing races in these boats to anything prior, ever again? That would be a good start.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 07:49 PM

latest press conference
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/11/17 08:05 PM

Burling makes the press conference painful to listen to.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Burling makes the press conference painful to listen to.


What specifically puts you off about him?

Dave Reed's final statement/question was extremely awkward: "It's pretty well known that everybody that's exited so far has gone out to support the defender in any way they can to prevent a Kiwi eventual victory..." WTF?????

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 03:53 PM

Today's schedule. The Youth start their qualifiers today after the challenger playoffs. I don't know of a live broadcast for the RBYAC.

Challenger Playoffs Final Races 7-9

14:12 Bermuda
*Race 7: Sweden vs New Zealand

14:51 Bermuda
*Race 8: New Zealand vs Sweden

15:30 Bermuda
*Race 9: Sweden vs New Zealand



Red Bull Youth America's Cup Qualifier 1 (Group B) Races 1-3
17:08 Bermuda
RBYAC - B - R1

17:35 Bermuda
RBYAC - B - R2

18:07 Bermuda
RBYAC - B - R3
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 04:19 PM

Thanks for all the info and start times P.M. !
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 04:46 PM

Forecast is very soft (5 knots or less), stand by for AP?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:14 PM

Nope, 10-11 knots at the start. NZL much better in the pre-start, but SWE looked to pounce. However, SWE OCS, following NZL into Mark 1.

Not good...

Not that it matters, but the RC radioed "Clear start" after the start, then called the penalty.

Wow, NZL going right upwind, way ahead, SWE split at the first leeward gate.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:20 PM

Big right shift and more pressure on that side. NZL went all the way left before tacking. Probably just minimizing maneuvers.

NZL tacking to cover, but SWE looking decent.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:23 PM

Breeze down to 5 knots, approaching first windward gate.

NZL dialing down, SWE protests, no penalty. SWE takes slight lead, will be on stbd for next tack. No one laying yet.

SWE found a big hole on the right.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:26 PM

NZL luffs SWE coming into the gate, SWE tacked away, but SWE gets a penalty. This is going to suck.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:28 PM

They are going to hit the time limit. deja vu from AC34 . . .
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:35 PM

They shortened the course, SWE crawling ahead, now slipping back, but the time limit is likely to be a bigger problem.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:36 PM

Wind just about 2 knots, about 2 minutes to N flag...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:37 PM

Wow, NZL holding their jib out, Hobie 16-style!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 05:38 PM

Game over, race abandoned.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
They are going to hit the time limit. deja vu from AC34 . . .


NZL fans must be losing their minds!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 06:45 PM

Looks like they're all but done for today.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 06:57 PM

not so fast. 6 marks averaging over 6 knots so wind is building.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:08 PM

Yes, NBCSN (online) has extended their broadcast. The boats are foiling around in just under 7 knots of breeze at the moment, cutoff time is 4:35 (I'd assume that's the latest start time).

Edit: no start after 4:35 Bermuda time (3:35 eastern), under 25 minutes to go.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:12 PM

Adjusting and shortening the course. Looks like they are going to try to get in a start sequence before time deadline.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:18 PM

We are in start sequence
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:21 PM

App showing start in 4 minutes.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:35 PM

Wow, NZL got a great start and held SWE to lead at Mark 1.

Big right shift halfway through, NZL extending.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 07:44 PM

Rematch, USA vs NZL.

Mike
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 08:20 PM

So are we going to see bikes on Oracle? Or are they going to stick with the traditional grinding?

What other changes will we see from Oracle's last race?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 09:47 PM

RED BULL YOUTH AMERICA'S CUP QUALIFIER 1 VIDEO

and it is LIVE
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/12/17 09:51 PM

Today's press conference
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
So are we going to see bikes on Oracle? Or are they going to stick with the traditional grinding?

What other changes will we see from Oracle's last race?


I don't think you'll see Oracle shift to any pedal stations (well, not any more than the stair stepper thing they installed at the back a few weeks ago). Their guys have trained for upper body and not leg muscle groups - the New Zealand grinders have been quietly riding and training on bicycles for years (I read an article about one who kept having to try and hide the fact from his own family that he was going for long bike rides while on family vacations). The amount of hydraulic pressure does seem to be coming into play on occasion - so it's still an interesting comparison.

I think any changes made will be really hard to see. I also have a feeling that Glen Ashby is working some real magic on that Kiwi boat while tucked away in that cockpit playing on his game controller. I didn't do an in-depth study, but the New Zealand wing sure didn't seem to have that same in/out pace like the other teams as the competition went on. Granted, I'm certainly not qualified to make a judgement here but I've surprised at how much teams generally seemed to move their wing in and out regularly.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 11:49 AM

cool article:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a26280/americas-cup-yachts-oracle-team-usa/
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by brucat

NBC totally sucks. We're forced to listen to old-school commentators opining about their Glory days when 0.1 knot of boatspeed mattered. I have tons of respect for Kenny and Cayard, but they're being put into a position where they can only lose.

How about never comparing races in these boats to anything prior, ever again? That would be a good start.

Mike



I'm just happy to get some coverage.... Usually the foil and onboard noises are so loud I can't really hear the commentators anyway...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 01:22 PM

Secret footage of Ashby's hydraulic display
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Secret footage of Ashby's hydraulic display




If you squint really hard you can see Artemis bouncing up and down on the left and if you play it backwards you can hear Ashby say "Oracle is dead, won't miss them, won't miss them".
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by brucat

NBC totally sucks. We're forced to listen to old-school commentators opining about their Glory days when 0.1 knot of boatspeed mattered. I have tons of respect for Kenny and Cayard, but they're being put into a position where they can only lose.

How about never comparing races in these boats to anything prior, ever again? That would be a good start.

Mike



I'm just happy to get some coverage.... Usually the foil and onboard noises are so loud I can't really hear the commentators anyway...


I was very annoyed when I wrote that. I agree, the video has been spectacular!

In the last cycle, we had to listen to Jobson with this nonsense. I thought Kenny stayed out of that, but maybe that's just what I choose to remember?

In any event, you can tell that Kenny is frustrated with the lack of technical information being shared with him, leaving him little to draw upon when calling the live action. He just needs to stop saying things like "This crazy version of the America's Cup..." because it just makes him look WAY out of touch (and I know that he isn't).

I don't know why Kenny wasn't making the calls yesterday (although I thought I heard his voice during the post-race onboard interviews). But, having Campbell there was awesome. We finally got to hear from someone with actual knowledge and experience on these current boats. It would be great if they could get Nathan or Dean to sit in during the finals!

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/13/17 10:06 PM

I thought Paul Cayard made some really great calls on the water regarding wind shifts and potential strategies. Keep that guy!

And yes, Ken probably didn't get any usable intel for calling the races. He didn't even have the camera control so when he diagramed something the view would change! Gotta be tough to make stuff up on the fly like that.

Of course, Ken should never try to out-guess Potty-mouth Percy or the biker gang because every time he did the boats would do the opposite and make him look like a chump smile

The agonizing discussion of how VMG works was hard to listen to, but the graphics were very well done and should explain to the non-sailor how it works... The leader bar and separation distance were easy enough for my 11 year old to figure out. The football yardage lines kind of helped, as did the boat tracks.

The speed readings above each boat really helped bring out the speeds, since the camera angles and ease at which they sailed made it look like they were in for an afternoon cruise to the yacht club (until they got mugged with wave wash through the nets)

The heartrate things were distracting, except for the one guy whos HR kept showing 245 which probably should have killed him.

Despite the speed, technology and all-out craziness of the challenger series, it really did appear to boil down to good-old match racing skills:
-consistent boat handling
-picking shifts and pressure
-rules knowledge and use

There were some real nail-biter races, stupid mistakes, and questionable umpire calls. Just like every other sport. The TV production really has the potential to make this a spectator sport... albeit not an in-person, on-site spectator sport... So if sponsors can figure out a way to cash in on the eyeballs rather than butts in the stadium seats I think we'll see a better influx of money in the sport.

And once the AC is over, I really want to see some fleet racing with all the boats... Can you imagine 6 of these boats on the same course ripping at 40+? The tacticians would have a heart attack! The extreme 40 series was awesome just for that fact (the fleet sailing)... Put those bad boys on foils and watch the shenanigans
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 02:24 AM

All awesome points, Jay.

As Jake has mentioned, they need a game-changer for the penalty system. What they have is probably fair, but horrific for spectators, including those of us who already know the sport. They need something much better than a blue light until a magic invisible distance is met.

Even something as simple as stop the boat for 10 seconds would be better than this. They could make the time adjustable to match the speeds and extent of the infraction, but we need something we can measure and watch to know when it's over.

Mike
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 11:06 AM

Instead of stopping it might be that you would just need to come off the foils. That appears to be a fairly substantial slow down, maybe even too much of a penalty. Stopping would probably be race over at these speeds.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 01:25 PM

Again, I think it needs to be a sliding scale (if it's light wind, they won't be foiling anyway). They just need something that can quickly be communicated, measured and observed. The blue idiot light takes the concept a bit too far, and takes away from the viewing experience.

Mike
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 04:45 PM

when's the next race?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 05:08 PM

Saturday, 1:00 eastern.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 05:48 PM

How many races for the finals? Best of how many?

What was it last time, best of 17 or such?

Are they going to race 17 races again?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 06:01 PM

13 races are scheduled (First to 7 points wins).

Link to schedule:

https://www.americascup.com/en/ac35-schedule.html

Mike
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/14/17 06:27 PM

Thank Mike!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/15/17 02:13 AM

You're welcome. I'm not loving the schedule, they loaded the front end (first 8 races) onto two weekends, and will then run into weekdays. So unless Oracle wins 6 before losing 3, we're going to have to see it end while at work!?!?

I'm extremely grateful for NBC's online coverage and App. I had to watch Sunday's racing on my phone while at a birthday party for a 6-year old (friend of my 6-year old, and son of a girl I've known since high school, we later became great friends, and she was one of my first crews on the original BruCat, so she understood, LOL).

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/15/17 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
You're welcome. I'm not loving the schedule, they loaded the front end (first 8 races) onto two weekends, and will then run into weekdays. So unless Oracle wins 6 before losing 3, we're going to have to see it end while at work!?!?

I'm extremely grateful for NBC's online coverage and App. I had to watch Sunday's racing on my phone while at a birthday party for a 6-year old (friend of my 6-year old, and son of a girl I've known since high school, we later became great friends, and she was one of my first crews on the original BruCat, so she understood, LOL).

Mike



That's friggn' hilarious! I hope she had some good beer at that party!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/15/17 02:21 PM

Nope, it was at one of those indoor party places (inflatable bounce houses, etc.). The AC was the only thing that made it tolerable.

Her husband was pretty interested in the boats too. My 6-year old? Not so much (need to work on that kid...).

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 10:54 AM

Strategy or Red Herring?


[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 11:00 AM

Videos of the superyachts.





Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 11:04 AM

NBC to air documentary on Ted Turner’s successful 1977 Americascup Defense on Saturday, June 17 2:30pm ET. This will be after the Match races.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I thought Paul Cayard made some really great calls on the water regarding wind shifts and potential strategies. Keep that guy!

...

The agonizing discussion of how VMG works was hard to listen to, but the graphics were very well done and should explain to the non-sailor how it works... The leader bar and separation distance were easy enough for my 11 year old to figure out. The football yardage lines kind of helped, as did the boat tracks.

...



I remember thinking, "Jesus Ken, do you even know what VMG is?"...and then back to one of my favorite Einstein quotes (which is a very introvert type thing) ... something along the lines of, "if you can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it well enough".

When I was on the steeper end of the learning to sail curve, I kept hearing that VMG is not a very useful data point for some reason - I'm not sure if it was the guys that were just not happy with, or didn't understand, the up and coming GPS tech at the time. Thanks to that, I rarely ever sailed with a VMG number on display anywhere (somewhat regrettably because I think it might have shortened my learning curve a little) but I do race with a running VMG estimate in my head and balance that against where I am on the course and what's happening around me.

Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


herring probably - unless they are making the boat shorter or with less windage - but I thought the hulls were one design. How much of the hulls was one-design, though? Can they change the bow?

I also think that everything leading up to this point has shown that the relative bow buoyancy has been pretty important...unless you are going to replace it with a ski, lol.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Again, I think it needs to be a sliding scale (if it's light wind, they won't be foiling anyway). They just need something that can quickly be communicated, measured and observed. The blue idiot light takes the concept a bit too far, and takes away from the viewing experience.

Mike


I'm coming to agree that the answer is a penalty time adder - they can display it right below the race time on the TV for each team somehow - kind of like penalty time in soccer. A boat that gets dinged with an infraction just occurs a finish time penalty. They get a 10 second penalty time (or whatever, for each infraction). If your opponent also makes an infraction, one infraction cancels the other out and you are back to zero. When the boat with a penalty crosses the finish line, you see their penalty timer start counting down and if the other team isn't across when it hits zero - they win. I think the time adder would be pretty insignificant relative to wind conditions.

This would also give them the option to assess different size penalties for different infractions too - something that isn't done, or certainly would be decipherable, with the current system....say, in the case where Artemis went outside the boundary and got a second penalty for being out there too long...10 seconds for the first and then 5 seconds for each 10 seconds you spend outside the boundary. You could take out a few of the arbitrary judgement calls this way too and let the computer do the computing and assigning the penalty.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.

but I thought the hulls were one design. How much of the hulls was one-design, though?.

they are, the rules require only a small percentage of a team’s bow section to be constructed in the country of origin.

The thinking here is put the Oracle bows on the JPN boat and Oracle will two boat test.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 12:28 PM

Get in the race!
This (slightly used) beauty can be yours!
[Linked Image]


For sale - on Craigslist
https://galveston.craigslist.org/boa/6141304361.html

or you can rent it for only $3k a day
https://boatbound.co/boats/jsvqz#
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 03:06 PM

Don't think for half a second that Ken doesn't understand VMG. He grew up racing on Narragansett Bay (shifty and puffy like a lake, with extremely variable currents), and has done a few stints in the VOR.

Unless you're on a piece of water with no current or wind shifts; VMG, like boatspeed, is something to consider, but may not always be the priority. There are times when you may prioritize one of these over the other, or sacrifice both for another goal, like placement vs your competition, or preparation for an expected shift in wind or current, etc.

Wind forecast for tomorrow says low teens, should be fun!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 03:11 PM

Press Conference Live NOW!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.

[Linked Image]



THE FRONT FELL OFF
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.



Thought that was a Hobie Bob. Burling could use one...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.

but I thought the hulls were one design. How much of the hulls was one-design, though?.

they are, the rules require only a small percentage of a team’s bow section to be constructed in the country of origin.

The thinking here is put the Oracle bows on the JPN boat and Oracle will two boat test.


If you want to hear JS's answer, listen to today's presser. JS response was perfect and I found it quite entertaining.

. . . . and to get the whole picture, yesterday NZ stated while posting the same picture, and I quote, "Closing the circle. OracleTeamUSA spare bows heading over to SoftBankTeamJPN to create Oracle Boat 2- surprised?"
Posted By: Will_R

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 06:22 PM

Jimmy trolling the media was AWESOME
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/16/17 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
You're welcome. I'm not loving the schedule, they loaded the front end (first 8 races) onto two weekends, and will then run into weekdays. So unless Oracle wins 6 before losing 3, we're going to have to see it end while at work!?!?
Mike


Wait a minute... The SB article referenced with that red bow picture says that the score is currently USA 0, NZL -1. So, USA needs to win 7, NZL need to win 8. How did I miss that?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 12:28 AM

These are great.

NZ fans sending good luck video


and another good luck video
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


They forgot to pitchpole?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 02:40 PM

Wind forecast is 8-12 knots out of the east. Very shifty. Playing the shifts and boat set up should be prevalent today.

Two races today and two races tomorrow.

First race start 14:12 Bermuda.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 04:45 PM

Both teams on light air foils
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:31 PM

Interesting that we have Nathan in the booth! Maybe they're reading these posts???

Jimmy really put them in a bad spot in that start, but almost pulled it off. NZL holding the lead for 5 legs so far though. We may be seeing the results of no defender series.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:37 PM

NZL really screwing themselves at the final gate. Extra gybes, down off foils. I doubt USA can catch them, but WOW Burling sucks at this mark...

Mike
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:37 PM

I'm finally watching on the app but really agravated, had set a recording, the recording says America's cup from Bermuda but the show was something called "The More You Know"

Is anyone watching this on an actual tv channel like the schedule says?

https://www.americascup.com/en/where-to-watch.html
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:38 PM

NZL takes the first race. Score is now 0-0, first to 7 wins the cup.

Mike
Posted By: Will_R

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:47 PM

Here's a question.... Why was Philippe Presti wearing a Zhik trap harness?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:49 PM

Weird... Kenny doing only the post-race, on-water interviews again.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:51 PM

BTW, it's awesome that we've graduated to full NBC (not just the SN channel).

Mike
Posted By: hobiephil

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:55 PM

NZ very fast in light air, only Achilles heel appears to be not enough hydraulic reserve to do consecutive jibes. Spithill needs to win the start. Damon, I'm watching on NBC, not NBCSN.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:56 PM

Ugh!!!!! They ran ads over the entry again. Wwwwwwttttttttffffffffffff????!!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:58 PM

Spithill screwed himself again at the line, behind and slow this time. WOW.

Mike
Posted By: hobiephil

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 05:59 PM

Oracle loses start again, 5 sec deficit at 1st mark.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:00 PM

NZL going much better than USA in the light air, much better first gybe and angle into the gate. USA going to split at the gate, but are WAY out of this early.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:01 PM

USA slight gain out of the gate, but NZL tacking onto loose cover. Very smart.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:05 PM

Either Oracle is sandbagging, experimenting with set up, or something, but they are much slower on all points of sail.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:05 PM

Wow, incredibly fast foiling tack by NZL, USA in floater mode...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:08 PM

Down 900 meters on the 4th leg is an a** whoppin'
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:09 PM

I'm lovin' the Pelican cam an the drone live feed!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:10 PM

"There is no second..."

Yikes.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:12 PM

Bring on 30 knots, please!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:13 PM

Spectator boats are nice and close.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:14 PM

Oracle back in it? Wow
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:16 PM

Wow, USA clawed back on leg 5 upwind!!!

USA protests at the windward gate, no penalty.

USA just totally pooched the gybe. I can't take much more of this!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:18 PM

They lost nearly 300 meters on the blown gybe at the start of the final run. Pretty much game over.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:19 PM

NZL takes Race 2. Score is 1-0, NZL.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:23 PM

Similar wind forecast tomorrow. Going to be a long week.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 06:30 PM

NBC is dialing up for Ted Turner's special. Interesting choice.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/17/17 07:12 PM

Press Conference
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 12:17 AM

Gonna be a quick cup methinks. Oracle doesn't have any special sauce this time.

Hope y'all like the trip back to monoslugs when NZL takes the cup back.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin


Hope y'all like the trip back to monoslugs when NZL takes the cup back.



What was that Jake was saying about watching the paint dry?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 03:27 AM

Thanks Philip. That was (predictably) boring as hell...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 02:49 PM

NBC totally missed the racing in the second race, leg 5. Way too much on board cameras, close ups and not enough racing. When Oracle met up with NZ at the top, even Draper and Nathan were surprised, because they are viewing the same feed that we were.

Towards the end of leg six, NBC shows a split screen with 3 cameras, one on board for each team, and the third showing the helicopter feed showing the coarse with the virtual eye overlay. This should be the default view for the majority of the race.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 04:39 PM

BT Sports reporting Oracle running asymmetric foils today (different between starboard and port foil). BT Sports coverage overall for the AC35 has been much better than NBC. I've been watching excellent coverage for the last hour.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 05:18 PM

Do you have a link to the BT feed?

NZL is just crushing those first leeward legs. USA can't even pull off a foiling gybe?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 05:22 PM

link
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 06:19 PM

2-0 NZL, but it doesn't even feel that close. USA needs to force NZL to really screw up the pre-start. And, they need to be faster and have cleaner maneuvers for the rest of the race.

About 10 minutes to race 4.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by brucat


About 10 minutes to race 4.

Mike

Race 4 is over
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 06:40 PM

Did they delay the broadcast online? I'm watching on the NBCSN app, they just rounded the first leeward gate. Should I bother watching the rest, after the way this one started (same as the prior 3)?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 06:44 PM

Mike, it was ugly.
You're about 20-30 minutes behind.

NZ design team 4
Oracle design team 0
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 06:46 PM

Ok, thanks for saving me the time, frustration and battery power.

I'm going back to enjoying roller coasters and water slides with the boys. Happy Father's Day guys!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 08:05 PM

Day 2 Race Press Conference
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Don't think for half a second that Ken doesn't understand VMG. He grew up racing on Narragansett Bay (shifty and puffy like a lake, with extremely variable currents), and has done a few stints in the VOR.

Unless you're on a piece of water with no current or wind shifts; VMG, like boatspeed, is something to consider, but may not always be the priority. There are times when you may prioritize one of these over the other, or sacrifice both for another goal, like placement vs your competition, or preparation for an expected shift in wind or current, etc.

Wind forecast for tomorrow says low teens, should be fun!

Mike


That was tongue in cheek - clearly the guy knows VMG with his experience.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/18/17 11:32 PM

Gotcha​. Weird not hearing Ken's voice, though.

Today's presser was more of the same. I remember thinking Jimmy was out of his gourd in SF (when he kept saying he was confident that they could come back and win), so I won't make that mistake again. I do like that Burling admits that his team wasn't perfect and they're striving to improve every day.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Gotcha​. Weird not hearing Ken's voice, though.

Today's presser was more of the same. I remember thinking Jimmy was out of his gourd in SF (when he kept saying he was confident that they could come back and win), so I won't make that mistake again. I do like that Burling admits that his team wasn't perfect and they're striving to improve every day.

Mike


This time there's no coming back.

No secret sauce now.

It's hard to believe that with all of the money and technology behind Oracle, with Airbus and all of the research they've done - that they're this much slower than the NZL boat. It's not even close.

Should have partnered with Boeing. As they say in the industry, "If it ain't Boeing it ain't going"
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 11:55 AM

I think there are two differences at the moment in these boats contributing to the deficit.

1) New Zealand has better ride height control. Oracle maintains a higher elevation while upwind or on reaches. The few times we could see shots from astern with the boats underway, Oracle is almost ALWAYS crabbing with the bows pointed 5 to 10 degrees higher than their direction of travel...which means that AOA of the foils is higher carrying more drag, the apparent wind angle across the deck is more steeply angled, they are closer to a sideways stall putting them at higher risk of a big slide slip like we saw during the first leg of the second race yesterday. The good news is that that ~should~ be correctable given enough time - but I'm a little shocked they haven't already discovered, dissected, and solved this problem. I've noticed them crabbing quite a bit from the very beginning. It's probably a combination of control system and technique...but it DOES appear that Spithills steering wheel was changed at some point to Team Japan's style of twist grips that are presumably for ride height control....I'm not sure when he started using that but I'm pretty sure they didn't start out with that setup.

2) Possibly, wing control. I have always felt that Glenn Ashby was going to be a very quiet secret weapon if he was given the control he needed being one of the few honest champions of apparent wind sailing on these teams. I'm dying to know what all he is controlling from his tucked away cockpit. New Zealand is the only team without a winch and even their mainsheet control is push button hydraulics. They don't observably move their wing nearly as much as the others and other teams seemed to have slowly followed suit with fewer and fewer mainsheet wing movements as the event progressed. I suspect (this is pure speculation on my part) that Ashby is making smaller more localized and precise wing trim adjustments inside the wing where other teams were using the mainsheet to make less efficient course/gross adjustments to compensate for trim and power. If this is the case, this will be harder for Oracle to develop and match as it's dramatically complex and would require a great deal of acquired skill (time) and talent.

Oracle is not in a good spot right now - unless the crabbing issue is fabricated and they're trying to make things dramatic, which I highly doubt. They're going to need to come out winning immediately next week if they stand any chance at retaining the cup.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 12:18 PM

" I have always felt that Glenn Ashby was going to be a very quiet secret weapon if he was given the control he needed being one of the few honest champions of apparent wind sailing on these teams."

The "apparent wind champions" don't seem to have done any better than the "slow boat champions" over the last couple of ACs, and the only "multihull sailing champion" is long gone. Perhaps these guys are good enough to be able to develop new skills?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by garda


The "apparent wind champions" don't seem to have done any better than the "slow boat champions" over the last couple of ACs, and the only "multihull sailing champion" is long gone. Perhaps these guys are good enough to be able to develop new skills?


Sure they are good enough but the America's Cup has always had a trend to bias toward the "in crowd" mentality to a fault. While they have certainly invested in time, training, research, and design, I don't think they explored all the possible aspects of reaching out to existing multihull talent when they first switched to multihulls and we saw a lot of early rookie multihull mistakes. Regardless, Ashby, has demonstrated a real mastery for making fast boats fast. We'll never be able to put a number on how efficient NZ's wing trimming method is vs. Oracle's and we'll probably never even get a technical breakdown of the trimming system. In that vein, my opinion about Ashby is just opinion.

Who you are talking about "multihull sailing champion" that is long gone? Practically everyone in the America's Cup has come up from monohull and dinghy sailing with the exception of the French Team who, nationally, have embraced big multihull racing more strongly in the past. I don't think their performance is reflective of their talent but is more a reflection of their lack of funds.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
NBC is dialing up for Ted Turner's special. Interesting choice.

Mike

I thought this was pretty interesting
the most interesting part was hearing about North and Doyle screwing over turner and not willing to build him new sails over a few months of competing - he got slower and his competitors got new sails
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mn3Again
Originally Posted by brucat
NBC is dialing up for Ted Turner's special. Interesting choice.

Mike

I thought this was pretty interesting
the most interesting part was hearing about North and Doyle screwing over turner and not willing to build him new sails over a few months of competing - he got slower and his competitors got new sails


I thought that was interesting too - BTW, Doyle was the guy on Turner's crew that saved the day by re-cutting their own sails. It was North and Hood that wouldn't sell him sails....I would like to hear more details about how that transpired. I bet there is a lot more to that story than they had time to tell.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 02:07 PM

Yes, that was cool. They probably also didn't want to do Connor's story for fear of jynxing Oracle?

Anyway, since when are Ashby and Burling (and several others) not bonafide apparent wind champions? And hasn't Ashby won more than a few major catamaran regattas?

I, probably more than most, have consistently been vocal about the stupid decisions made during the past few cycles (no catsailor would ever leebow), and NZL has people racing who have never sailed before, but let's not throw them all in the same bucket.

I agree with Jake. In this light/moderate breeze, NZL is nearly flawless at foiling, and staying foiling. I think that's a combination of design and Ashby's skills. The only thing that impressed me more was Artemis' ability to turn down and accelerate off the starting line.

Mike
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mn3Again
Originally Posted by brucat
NBC is dialing up for Ted Turner's special. Interesting choice.

Mike

I thought this was pretty interesting
the most interesting part was hearing about North and Doyle screwing over turner and not willing to build him new sails over a few months of competing - he got slower and his competitors got new sails


I thought that was interesting too - BTW, Doyle was the guy on Turner's crew that saved the day by re-cutting their own sails. It was North and Hood that wouldn't sell him sails....I would like to hear more details about how that transpired. I bet there is a lot more to that story than they had time to tell.


Ahh yes, thanks for clearing that up - I was well into my 2nd or 3rd rum by this time -

I would like to learn more about it too -

after an exhastive 44 second search on google - this is all i found
http://www.nytimes.com/1977/06/19/archives/us-yachts-begin-americas-cup-trials.html

and this
https://www.si.com/more-sports/2017/06/16/courageous-documentary-americas-cup-ted-turner
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 04:40 PM

One of my buddies used to sail on Lanier with Ted. He says Ted won all the races. He would have several good looking ladies on the boat with him at all times and as soon as the start gun went off they would pull their tops off. Everyone just followed Ted around the course.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mn3Again
Originally Posted by brucat
NBC is dialing up for Ted Turner's special. Interesting choice.

Mike

I thought this was pretty interesting
the most interesting part was hearing about North and Doyle screwing over turner and not willing to build him new sails over a few months of competing - he got slower and his competitors got new sails


I thought that was interesting too - BTW, Doyle was the guy on Turner's crew that saved the day by re-cutting their own sails. It was North and Hood that wouldn't sell him sails....I would like to hear more details about how that transpired. I bet there is a lot more to that story than they had time to tell.


And Doyle had been working for Hood, and they were sailing on Hood's old boat!

I'm sure there was a TON more info that they didn't have time for. For instance, how did Turner connect with Jobson in the first place?

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 05:19 PM

Back to Jake's discussion, I would almost think that Ashby controls a lot more than the mainsail...

I'd even venture a guess that they could have some software that automates many of the foil controls or settings during maneuvers (possibly tied to wheel position, as you see Burling yank that thing hard over).

Think about all the stuff you have to adjust:
- Main Foil draft profile (fore and aft pieces)
- Main sheet
- Jib clew
- Jib sheet
- possibly jib luff tension
- Daggarboard foils (height, AOA, etc)
- Rudder elevator

And only one (possibly two) folks doing all that at the same time they run across the trampoline?

I really like the Kiwi Biker Gang for their total out-of-box thinking on this boat design.

I think Nathan said it right at one point. From his description, NZL was one of the last teams to show up in Bermuda. This kept them away from the other team's development which may have been an advantage as those Bermuda teams were all working designs against each other. This lead development more closely together in terms of performance.

Having NZL show up late was a huge gamble, but seems to be very effective in lighter airs.

And I still think SWE was blazing fast compared to the other boats. Too bad consistency was their downfall. Probably their tradeoff for that speed (too hard to maintain or duplicate)...
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
One of my buddies used to sail on Lanier with Ted. He says Ted won all the races. He would have several good looking ladies on the boat with him at all times and as soon as the start gun went off they would pull their tops off. Everyone just followed Ted around the course.

haha!
Sportsmanship!

I have heard of boats on the TransPac race projecting risque movies on their sails at night to distract competitors
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Back to Jake's discussion, I would almost think that Ashby controls a lot more than the mainsail...

I'd even venture a guess that they could have some software that automates many of the foil controls or settings during maneuvers (possibly tied to wheel position, as you see Burling yank that thing hard over).

Think about all the stuff you have to adjust:
- Main Foil draft profile (fore and aft pieces)
- Main sheet
- Jib clew
- Jib sheet
- possibly jib luff tension
- Daggarboard foils (height, AOA, etc)
- Rudder elevator

And only one (possibly two) folks doing all that at the same time they run across the trampoline?

I really like the Kiwi Biker Gang for their total out-of-box thinking on this boat design.

I think Nathan said it right at one point. From his description, NZL was one of the last teams to show up in Bermuda. This kept them away from the other team's development which may have been an advantage as those Bermuda teams were all working designs against each other. This lead development more closely together in terms of performance.

Having NZL show up late was a huge gamble, but seems to be very effective in lighter airs.

And I still think SWE was blazing fast compared to the other boats. Too bad consistency was their downfall. Probably their tradeoff for that speed (too hard to maintain or duplicate)...


It's getting to the limit of my knowledge on the topic, but I'm quite sure that automated controls (ride height, etc.) are NOT allowed. These boats wouldn't have the ride height problems they clearly have if they were. During the last cup cycle, there was a lot of debate about one of Oracle's control system with this rule because they had put an extra layer of control between the daggerboard fore/aft position system and they were protested over it with the argument that it made for an automated control.

In that case, basically, they had issues when the button was pressed to move the daggerboard rake, the amount the daggerboard moved with the same button press duration was different depending on how much hydraulic pressure they had - this made it hard to control. Oracle came up with a system with a very small hydraulic cylinder that operated on a low consistent regulated pressure. That cylinder was mounted to the boat chassis and it moved it's arm over a center position switch that was mounted directly to the daggerboard. The button push moved the arm of the small cylinder off the switch in one direction or the other. The switch controlled the flow of hydraulic pressure that moved the daggerboard and the daggerboard would keep moving until the switch was centered again under the small cylinder actuator. With this system, the daggerboard might take more or less time to get to the setpoint but the setpoint made by pushing the button for any particular duration was very consistent. This is part of what allowed Oracle to start foiling upwind and defend the cup last iteration. There was some issue with how the protest was filed and I think it got thrown out on a technicality but it was generally accepted that that system did not constitute and "automated" control system.

Granted, we're under a new ruleset for this cup but I'm nearly certain that they still do not allow any automated control. Digital, remote, etc., yes - but a computer can't be initiating movements.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/19/17 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Back to Jake's discussion, I would almost think that Ashby controls a lot more than the mainsail...

I'd even venture a guess that they could have some software that automates many of the foil controls or settings during maneuvers (possibly tied to wheel position, as you see Burling yank that thing hard over).

Think about all the stuff you have to adjust:
- Main Foil draft profile (fore and aft pieces)
- Main sheet
- Jib clew
- Jib sheet
- possibly jib luff tension
- Daggarboard foils (height, AOA, etc)
- Rudder elevator

And only one (possibly two) folks doing all that at the same time they run across the trampoline?

I really like the Kiwi Biker Gang for their total out-of-box thinking on this boat design.

I think Nathan said it right at one point. From his description, NZL was one of the last teams to show up in Bermuda. This kept them away from the other team's development which may have been an advantage as those Bermuda teams were all working designs against each other. This lead development more closely together in terms of performance.

Having NZL show up late was a huge gamble, but seems to be very effective in lighter airs.

And I still think SWE was blazing fast compared to the other boats. Too bad consistency was their downfall. Probably their tradeoff for that speed (too hard to maintain or duplicate)...



Additionally, on the NZ boat, their responsibilities and controls are pretty different from the other teams. The rear biking station appears to have control of the ride height on his forward handlebar grips (either the rudder rake or the daggerboard rake), Burling has at least boards up/down on his wheel and maybe some more stuff. I think Ashby just has sails...Ashby is the throttle man....so one other advantage here to the biking stations - the bike guys can still use their hands to control other stuff if needed whereas a traditional grinding station guy can do nothing but grind.

On Oracle, Jimmy appears to have switched to Japan's style of wheel with twist grips instead of push-buttons for the flight height controls. He also appears to have buttons for boards up/down. I'm not sure about the wing controls but they were foot buttons for the wing trimmer at one point.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 03:40 AM

I have been living the hell of Jury selection and jury duty all day so the judge said "NO CELLPHONES". . . .Whatever, so. . . .

Jake has covered a lot of good stuff so let's start here.

Originally Posted by Jake
Granted, we're under a new ruleset for this cup but I'm nearly certain that they still do not allow any automated control. Digital, remote, etc., yes - but a computer can't be initiating movements.


NZ has successfully pulled off an automated (let's for now call it a) "fly by wire" system that was accepted within the class rule. Outside of cyclors providing hydro power there are only two controls. Steering only provided by Burling and the "game boy" touch screen that is controlled by Ashby. Anything else you see is a decoy. That is why we have seen such excellent boat handling from NZ. That is also why we saw a capsize. I personally think that is why we also see NZ always banging a single jibe to the 2nd mark (port side) almost every time. The software that controls the touch screen is constantly learning and getting more efficient. With a single touch of Ashby's one single finger, NZ is able to control everything from calculations using inputs from the instruments and sensors. The touchscreen controls the following :
jib sheet
jib downhaul
wing first and second element trim
platform trim
platform heel
boatspeed
daggerboard rake position
daggerboard cant position
daggerboard extension
rudder rake
apendage loads from strain gauges

So technically, a computer (touchscreen interface and software) CAN be initiating movements with the touch of a finger and NZ successfully pulled it off. Gotta hand it to the kiwis, they figured out a way to foil the AC72 when the rules tried to prevent it. And for this AC cycle, they intentionally did not show up to Bermuda until too late in the game for anybody else to respond.

What happened? NZ brilliantly set up the measurement committee in an interpretation request and MC walked right into their trap. NZ receive the ruling on February 6 of this year, very late in the game. Did MC make the correct ruling? Technically yes, but in the spirit of the cup who knows. NZ knew what they were doing and executed it perfectly, and for that, they have earned the cup.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 03:53 AM

America's Cup Formula One on the Water

"The one catch is Kiwi reluctance. Team New Zealand, keen to avenge their spectacular collapse in 2013, have qualified as this year’s challengers by winning the Louis Vuitton Cup. Grant Dalton, their CEO, has said that the new agreement will be “null and void” if they clinch the title."
Posted By: Will_R

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 05:27 AM

Although many of the guys came from mono's, good sailors can adapt to new platforms.

Might want to remember that Pete Burling was THIRD in the 2014 A-cat worlds. Like Outterideg, he's also been the Moth world champion; those boats are more like a cat than a mono.

When talking about software and data analytics, I have a HARD time believing that anybody could out "data" Oracle... I mean, really? ORACLE; am I the only one here who knows what Oracle does? Honestly, everybody thinks Microsoft makes the world run, but really, Oracle is more important in terms of the heavy lifting of keeping the lights on.

IMO, the deficit comes down to two things; foil design and system control (wing and boards). The ETNZ foils have a much wider crossover and although may require more trimming are faster and more stable b/c of the way that the work load is divided on board. This ties to the improved leeway performance; since they maintain a narrower flight margin, they could design a lower drag foil that produces equal lift, but needs more foil in the water. Oracle seems to be running foils that produce more lateral lift, but can't fly in the same narrow height grove; as such their vertical foils operate at a higher AoA as evidenced by the increased noise (and therefore higher drag).

Looking at pictures of the foils, I also think that ETNZ has gone for a higher aspect tip shape; notice that Oracle's foils appear to have longer chord length. I have a theory about what is going on here, but not time to type it out.

Lastly, the "automated" systems; it is thought that ETNZ is simply "chasing the dot". Ashby's controller tells him the optimum target and adjusts accordingly. Their elimination of the wing sheets makes me think that most of his adjustments are fine tuning the twist and shape further up the wing at all times. I suspect that Oracle has very similar data, but implemented their approach/systems in a significantly different (more conventional) manner.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 07:33 AM

Question is what can Oracle do to get to ETNZs pace before the weekend?
Last time in SF they had the better boat which they just weren't sailing properly but I'm not sure that is the case today, I don't see them making many mistakes or sailing in the wrong direction.
There are probably some small things they can do but putting on bikes and rebuilding foils seem ambitious with only 4-5 days between races.
Maybe they need a different skipper/trimmer/tactician setup?

Might not be relevant but I think one of the (many!) reasons for the kiwi success is that Gashby has done a lot of helming of their boat which might give him a better understanding on how it behaves relative to the wing trim.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 11:57 AM

Oracle beat NZ both times in the qualifiers. Was NZ sandbagging? In the stats both teams had equal average speeds.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 01:50 PM

Anyone remember the good old days when all you had to worry about was what was under the skirt?

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
I have been living the hell of Jury selection and jury duty all day so the judge said "NO CELLPHONES". . . .Whatever, so. . . .

Jake has covered a lot of good stuff so let's start here.

Originally Posted by Jake
Granted, we're under a new ruleset for this cup but I'm nearly certain that they still do not allow any automated control. Digital, remote, etc., yes - but a computer can't be initiating movements.


NZ has successfully pulled off an automated (let's for now call it a) "fly by wire" system that was accepted within the class rule. Outside of cyclors providing hydro power there are only two controls. Steering only provided by Burling and the "game boy" touch screen that is controlled by Ashby. Anything else you see is a decoy. That is why we have seen such excellent boat handling from NZ. That is also why we saw a capsize. I personally think that is why we also see NZ always banging a single jibe to the 2nd mark (port side) almost every time. The software that controls the touch screen is constantly learning and getting more efficient. With a single touch of Ashby's one single finger, NZ is able to control everything from calculations using inputs from the instruments and sensors. The touchscreen controls the following :
jib sheet
jib downhaul
wing first and second element trim
platform trim
platform heel
boatspeed
daggerboard rake position
daggerboard cant position
daggerboard extension
rudder rake
apendage loads from strain gauges

So technically, a computer (touchscreen interface and software) CAN be initiating movements with the touch of a finger and NZ successfully pulled it off. Gotta hand it to the kiwis, they figured out a way to foil the AC72 when the rules tried to prevent it. And for this AC cycle, they intentionally did not show up to Bermuda until too late in the game for anybody else to respond.

What happened? NZ brilliantly set up the measurement committee in an interpretation request and MC walked right into their trap. NZ receive the ruling on February 6 of this year, very late in the game. Did MC make the correct ruling? Technically yes, but in the spirit of the cup who knows. NZ knew what they were doing and executed it perfectly, and for that, they have earned the cup.




I'm not quite sure I buy all of this. Do you have a link to the MC interpretation request? My understanding is Glenn is doing all the wing trim work (more inputs than shown there), and Blair Tuke is doing all the daggerboard trimming. Well, both are likely following dots on ipads with their fingers, so yes the computer is doing all the heavy lifting but the sailors are still technically moving the controls. I actually doubt Oracle is running things that differently; ETNZ's big advantage is that they can use their hands since they are on the bicycles.

I'm not sure if they sandbagged against Oracle in the LV series. I think they saved all there go fast toys for last, to avoid the same mistake as last time (letting the foiling out of the bag too early). Those races were sailed in a different wind range where ETNZ has less of an advantage, if any, compared with the other boats. They designed a weapon in the 8-12kt breeze range.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us

I'm not quite sure I buy all of this. Do you have a link to the MC interpretation request? .

I do. Post it in just a moment . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 03:45 PM

The most current AC Class Rule is version 1.9 I believe. The process involves teams asking for an RFI to get an interpretation on a design implementation to use legally within the class rule (RFI#70 & #72), or to further clarify specific wording in the rule (i.e. RFI#6).

The AC Class Rule that comes into play here is 15.xx. RFI#6 early on clarified what was manual control vs. electronic control from an electric signal for control surfaces.

NZ RFI'ed (request for interpretation) 3 specific design configurations within (RFI#70), in which, in my opinion, each one leading the MC down the rabbit hole with RFI#70. They received a favorable ruling on the 3rd design, which changed the wording to "control surfaces" which was different than the first 2 design configurations, which specified "daggerboard control". The entire interpretation was focused on the "air gap" which MC ruled was separate from control 15.3.

NZ immediately RFI'ed for ruling on RFI#72 and received ruling the same day as RFI#70. RFI#72 further favored NZ with the legal ruling to questions a,b,c,d, and e. This gave NZ legal authority to manage other control surfaces, ie. wing elements, etc. They also received a favorable ruling for audible signals to headsets based on sensor data.

FYI, MC earlier ruled against Blue Tooth.

Again, NZ played this brilliantly.

Here are the links (will open a new tab to a google cloud document):

AC Class Rule V1.9

RFI#6

RFI#70

RFI#72
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us

Those races were sailed in a different wind range where ETNZ has less of an advantage, if any, compared with the other boats. They designed a weapon in the 8-12kt breeze range.


I thought so too, so I went and checked. Wind for QRR 2 R 12 was 9.7 Knots. Wind for AC R4 was 10.3 knots. So, QRR 2R 12 was within their weapon range during the qualifiers.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 05:08 PM

Red Bull Youth Live Feed
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.

Way to kill my productivity!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Damon Linkous
Originally Posted by P.M.

Way to kill my productivity!


Dude, slow down on the productivity already. Whatever you just did to the color scheme here has left me partially blinded...

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 08:56 PM

so what you're saying with the "fly by wire" reference is that anyone can steer the boat? Awesome! I want 2 smile
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
...
So technically, a computer (touchscreen interface and software) CAN be initiating movements with the touch of a finger and NZ successfully pulled it off.



From my perspective (as a part-time industrial controls engineer and full-time robotic application engineer) by requiring a finger to touch a keypad to make something move is the human initiating the motion aka "manual operation". The human pushes a button, the board comes up, human pushes another button, the board rakes to the side, button push and wing eases out, etc. If, however, Ashby just taps a button that fires off a series of mechanical motions on the boat to, perhaps, move all the foils through an entire tacking series, or the boat can be put into a mode where it reads it's flight height and automatically adjusts the foils to maintain level flight, that is the computer initiating motion in an automatic mode. I suspect the later is not AC legal.

Again, though, I don't know the details of how this plays out in the rules - just pointing out what industrial applications of control systems consider human vs. machine controlled.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 10:58 PM

I don't have the time or desire to become a rules expert on this America's Cup iteration but here is the general control system rule quoted below. They generally require "direct manual input" for all controls but there is a confusing bit that does allow "internally generated timing signals initiated by manual input". There's an "and/or" that precedes that statement and I'm not clear if that means you can press a button to fire off a series of timed motions to, perhaps, cycle the boards up/down/in/out/fore/aft through the tack as long as that timing was initiated manually or if it all means that one button press can only move one thing but you can press a button and have that motion delayed by some period (to allow you run across the boat or something). I don't have the time or desire to read it all at the moment ;-).

The rest of it has to do with feedback systems that verify that the cntrol surface met the desired position. For instance, they cannot place a gauge on a wing flap to read back it's exact position. However, 5.3 (which I didn't include below) does allow them to place some measurement/feedback devices on the daggerboard rake and have that display the position of the daggerboard.


Originally Posted by AC Rules V1.9

Control Systems in General

(a) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, systems and devices used to adjust the
control surfaces may only use direct manual input and/ or an internally generated
timing signal initiated by manual input. Any input or feedback used by the control
systems to adjust the control surfaces is not permitted unless specifically allowed by the
AC Class Rule.

(b) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, control systems used to adjust control
surfaces shall not use positional information of the control surface or any part of the
control system, whether that positional information is measured, inferred or indicated by
any method, including electronic counting, indexing or pulsing (e.g. stepper motors and
indexing actuators are not permitted).

(c) A system controlling a hydraulic valve or drive clutch may use feedback from the internal
state of that valve or drive clutch (e.g. to drive a cam or spool to a target position),
providing that the feedback provides no information or indication as to the state of the
control system outside that valve, drive clutch, or drive clutch actuator.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by P.M.
...
So technically, a computer (touchscreen interface and software) CAN be initiating movements with the touch of a finger and NZ successfully pulled it off.



From my perspective (as a part-time industrial controls engineer and full-time robotic application engineer) by requiring a finger to touch a keypad to make something move is the human initiating the motion aka "manual operation". The human pushes a button, the board comes up, human pushes another button, the board rakes to the side, button push and wing eases out, etc. If, however, Ashby just taps a button that fires off a series of mechanical motions on the boat to, perhaps, move all the foils through an entire tacking series, or the boat can be put into a mode where it reads it's flight height and automatically adjusts the foils to maintain level flight, that is the computer initiating motion in an automatic mode. I suspect the later is not AC legal.

Again, though, I don't know the details of how this plays out in the rules - just pointing out what industrial applications of control systems consider human vs. machine controlled.



You are correct, and that is why it passed the rules. So the computer tells Ashby where to point his finger (just follow the dot) and then flight is automated.

Maybe Oracle can force an anomaly on the software in the pre-start or something. Remember when NZ blundered the jibe on the finishing leg and almost lost to SWE? I think that was the software. PacMan ran off the touchscreen and Ashby crapped his pants.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


Here are the links (will open a new tab to a google cloud document):

AC Class Rule V1.9

RFI#6

RFI#70

RFI#72




Damn you philip! ;-). I really didn't want to get into this but this is really interesting stuff:

So, #6, I think they're basically looking to see if they can use a pressure sensor to shift gears on the cyclists stations (assuming this was TNZ). The pressure sensor would read the hydraulic pressure that they've accumulated and adjust the gearing on the bikes accordingly. Higher pressures, lower gears. In addition, by using that pressure sensor to directly control flow from one or more accumulators, they can stage the accumulators so some are automatically low pressure accumulators and some are high. I've often wondered if they run two (or more) hydraulic pressure systems on the boat...some motions need low pressure high volume of flow and other need high pressure low volume flow. It would SUCK to be peddling like hell to get the tippy-top of pressure built up in the accumulator but then lose all that pressure with a big vertical board motion that took a ton of oil but didn't really need much pressure. The measurement committee basically said that any gear shifting had to be performed manually and referred back to 15.1 that does allow for some automatic pressure control devices - but it's limited to a few specific device types.

#70 is complicated and fascinating. What a terrific and clear response by the measurement team too. It basically says the earlier suggestion of having a tablet with dots moving on it and an operator just following those dots is ILLEGAL. The feedback systems and the control systems have to be physically AND electrically isolated and that is not isolated. It does say that they could have TWO tablets with one above showing the correct position for the fingers and the operator touching a second tablet in response to what the first one was telling him - but they could not be on the same device.

#72 is similar to #70 but is fishing for the exact level of what is considered "manual input". The measurement committee again had a very clear response and drew the line at attaching electrodes to peoples hands and having the computer shock them to make involuntary finger movements to push buttons....seriously. That was one of the questions. ;-)


I really don't think there are any magic bullets in there except that #70 actually says the "follow the dot" thing that was suggested that Ashby was doing is clearly NOT permitted. The data systems and control systems are required to be clearly labeled and completely isolated from each other. It looks like a solid approach to keep computers from driving the boats.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/20/17 11:58 PM

Jake, only an automations person would call that manually controlled (speaking from experience here too). That will never pass the sniff test for Joe Six Pack, let alone the average sailor of sheet-controlled boats (99.99999+% of the world).

Not saying it's illegal (any more than the fossil-fueled engines from a few regattas back), but is really stretching what sailing means to most people. Foiling is one thing, using computer-aided motors is something else entirely.

Mike
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 03:05 AM

[quote=Will_R] Like Outterideg, he's also been the Moth world champion; those boats are more like a cat than a mono.
/quote]I think you're right about the fact that the best sailors can normally pick up skills like apparent wind sailing. It's also arguable that the common implication that there is "apparent wind sailing" and "the other sailing" is overdone. Even in Lasers people like Tom and Ben are working wind pressure a lot, even when they are just playing around in big breeze. Tom is also a keen windsurfer so he's used to going downwind faster than most cats a fair amount of the time.

Although my experience in foilers is very limited it's hard to agree that Moths are closer to cats than they are to fast monos. How many cats fall over instantly if you're not actively sailing them? How many cats heel to windward? How many fast cats have that sort of mast bend, massive vang tension, and no mast rotation? How many fast cats are sailed when hiking and with that level of mainsheet input?

The foiling Moth feels closer to a foiling Laser or International Canoe than it does to a cat, from my very limited experience.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by garda


The "apparent wind champions" don't seem to have done any better than the "slow boat champions" over the last couple of ACs, and the only "multihull sailing champion" is long gone. Perhaps these guys are good enough to be able to develop new skills?


Sure they are good enough but the America's Cup has always had a trend to bias toward the "in crowd" mentality to a fault. While they have certainly invested in time, training, research, and design, I don't think they explored all the possible aspects of reaching out to existing multihull talent when they first switched to multihulls and we saw a lot of early rookie multihull mistakes. Regardless, Ashby, has demonstrated a real mastery for making fast boats fast. We'll never be able to put a number on how efficient NZ's wing trimming method is vs. Oracle's and we'll probably never even get a technical breakdown of the trimming system. In that vein, my opinion about Ashby is just opinion.

Who you are talking about "multihull sailing champion" that is long gone? Practically everyone in the America's Cup has come up from monohull and dinghy sailing with the exception of the French Team who, nationally, have embraced big multihull racing more strongly in the past. I don't think their performance is reflective of their talent but is more a reflection of their lack of funds.
Has the AC always favoured the in-crowd? Eons ago they pulled in people like Charlie Barr (a Scot) to drive defenders. The French pulled in Elvstrom in the '60s (although he dropped out due to nationality issues). Ted Turner came in from the wrong sort of boat and the wrong part of the country. Dennis Connor was a blow-in from California Star sailing. The second Endeavour challenge had a bunch of dinghy sailors. The second British 12 Metre challenge had a dinghy sailor driving. Ben Lexcen was an outsider in design terms, as was Bond. Key guys in Aus 2 like Grant Simmer were not even in the 'in crowd' in Sydney dinghy sailing.

In the early days multihull experts like Loick Peyron were called in - his team got last first time around. This time one of the world's great sailors, Cammas, got last in the ACWS on ONE DESIGN boats and last in the real AC. In the ACWS, when there was no design advantage because the boats were one design, the result was the same as it was in the cats last time around - teams with backgrounds in Etchells, Lasers and Finns dominated. That's only to be expected in some ways - monos make up about 95% of the racing scene, and slower monos like Etchells, Lasers and Finns make up a very big proportion of the rest. It's only logical that the type that has by far the largest pool of sailors will end up with the largest pool of talent.

It was interesting that when the AC was moved to foiling cats, people like Outteridge, Slingsby and Burling got into cats and/or foilers. Tom is apparently too heavy to keep up downwind in Moths, but he did very well upwind. Maybe the lesson to be learned is that good sailors can move from one extreme to the other pretty easily, and that if multihull sailors want to be asked into the afterguard of AC boats they should also do some cross-training to show how good they are?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 11:20 AM

I didn't spell this out very well but when I mentioned earlier the lack of using multihull (or boats that sail strictly on apparent-wind - like the moth) familiar sailors, I was talking mostly about Oracle & Alinghi. I was also talking about AC33 - the point at which they switched to mulithulls and stuck with their traditional AC crowd. Certainly there has been some influx of skilled life-long apparent-wind sailors and yes, definitely, the more traditional sailors are capable of, and have, adapted. Most big name French sailors ARE multihull sailors so that makes sense that teams derived in France would turn to guys like Loick (my favorite!) and Cammas. Oracle did invoke Melvin & Morrelli to assist with the boat design in AC33 but let them go (or was it just Melvin?) shortly after they helped develop the rules for AC34. New Zealand wisely snatched up Pete Melvin shortly after that and he played a sizable role in their foiling development.

What we HAVE seen, though, in AC33, AC34 we saw some wrong application of monohull tactics in multihull sailing and we saw some multihull handling mistakes than many of us made when we first started sailing multihulls (but, notably, I don't recall seeing Groupama making any of these types of errors). We've still seen a little bit of this in AC35 but not nearly as much - they are mostly past the inexperience curve.

My point is, the main AC teams in AC33 and AC34 discounted multihull experience and stuck with their in-crowd. As far as the in-crowd, yes, DEFINTELY, they are stuck as the in-crowd. Ted Turner had to practically beat, scream, pay, and yell his way onto the helm of an AC campaign and if you judge one single fact alone, just look at the number of Australian and New Zealander sailors that make up practically every team. Yes, there is still a good bit of an in-crowd going on.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
What we HAVE seen, though, in AC33, AC34 we saw some wrong application of monohull tactics in multihull sailing and we saw some multihull handling mistakes than many of us made when we first started sailing multihulls (but, notably, I don't recall seeing Groupama making any of these types of errors). We've still seen a little bit of this in AC35 but not nearly as much - they are mostly past the inexperience curve.


THIS is my biggest concern when taking monohull sailors and putting them into major multihull regattas (AC, Olympics, etc.). There are VERY, VERY few people who can successfully make this transition.

I won't speak for Jake, but when I hear a comparison of monos to cats, I think the folks with the best (only?) chance are apparent-wind sailors (49ers, Foiling Moths, etc.). As Garda mentioned, it's not so much about boat handling, but IMHO is all about race strategy and tactics.

EDIT: I'm certainly NOT saying that smart monohull sailors can't learn this, it just takes a long time. How long depends on a lot of factors, but I'd measure it in cycles rather than months or even years.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 02:50 PM

I totally agree Mike. As far as tactics go lately, the splits that Oracle have been doing at the bottom of the course on the first transition from downwind to upwind are either old-school monohull thinking or knowledgeable desperation. Either way, I don't think there is any situation where I would want to split from my competition if I'm within 1 boat length of them rounding the bottom of the course on the first upwind leg of a relatively long race. This is a habit that has taken me a long time to build and it serves me well - basically, it requires managing my panic - managing my strategic risk. At the speeds THESE boats can achieve, you only need the smallest opportunity to pass. Additionally while in the lead on a boat as efficient through the wind, you can't physically hold a boat behind you like you could with the AC monohulls. You hold a boat down on faster-than-wind boats by making sure you have as good or better pressure and angle and sail higher faster. Oracle was either making panicked, ill-advised, strategy decision from the outset of races 3 and 4 (I didn't see 1 and 2) or they knew they had a major upwind speed deficit and just started rolling the dice at the beginning.

I know I'm heavy in arm-chair-skipper mode here, and, admittedly, I've most certainly never made any money sailing... but even with a known speed deficit and sailing from behind, I would work hard to keep myself in as close touch with the opponent boat to see what we can figure out to deal with our speed problem or stay tight to capitalize on a mistake. If nothing else, the data that you can record while sailing in tight quarters with your opponent can help define exactly how much of a problem you need to overcome. The data you record while sailing on opposite sides of the course from your competitor isn't quite as sound since the wind and water differences start to get less predictable between the boat conditions.

In old school monohulls, passing was harder. The splits were more strategically sound because you will likely tack several more times upwind and you have a chance to try and manipulate the timing that your opponent tacks to cover so that you can work the wind phase in your advantage. With only three or four tacks upwind now, and going from edge to edge of the course during those tacks, being in phase with the wind is critical. I really think they should round the bottom of the course with the best chance to be and stay in phase with the wind ~almost~ regardless of what the competition is doing. Anticipating shifts just a little better than your opponent (who is placing a good deal of his focus on you) is not too hard to do and very solid gains are available.

It's very unlikely that any of these teams are going to pick the wrong side of the course when given their preference. I probably would NOT allow them to choose first what side of the course they want and then take the longer way to get to wherever my opponent didn't want to go. That smells like almost certain death...aka, taking a flyer. Flyers are the equivalent to an American Football hail mary, and when have you ever seen a team try a hail mary (the kind where everybody bunches up at the longest point the QB can throw the ball) when they first get possession? It hardly ever happens - and for good reason. It's poor risk management EVEN IF you expect that your chances to win are low at the outset of the match.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/21/17 06:38 PM

I would agree with you Jake. Splitting the course hasn't shown to be very effective in most of the round robin or semi-final matches.

If I recall, the few times it did work was because one side was favored after a wind shift and the leading boat had picked the wrong side.

So, if it is true that Oracle didn't have the speed to drive up and over NZL, perhaps your right that Spithill should have stayed right on NZL and tried to rattle their cage or force an error.

Dropping off the foil, dipping the windward hull, or any number of smaller tweaks could have cost NZL the lead if USA was sitting right there to capitalize, rather than on the other side of the course.

Heck, seeing the (albeit few) gaffs NZL pulled and how quickly leads changed (against SWE and USA) I think splitting the course just doesn't make as much sense anymore...
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 09:29 AM

Well the guy who is calling the splits is a world-class "apparent wind" sailor - 7th in one Moth worlds, a heat win and a bunch of seconds (and lots of broken kit) in 2015. He's got top 3 in heats in the A Class worlds but is too heavy for the class (IIRC). And the guy steering the boat into the splits was 6th in the A Class worlds and has been extremely competitive against guys of the quality of Steve Brewin and Outteridge in other regattas.

If they are so cr*p and "old school" tactically then how did they do well in the worlds against those who specialise in Moths and A Class?

If the tactician was influenced by his "old school mono thinking" then he'd do the usual thing that Laser sailors do, and stick with the opposition. By the way, you may find that saying "not too hard" to pick shifts better than Ashby and Burling is incorrect.

Yes, sticking with the opposition while you try to analyse the speed deficit is one option. These guys are so good, and have so many people off the boat watching them and recording stuff, that it's understandable that they take a different choice. It's also much, much harder to get leverage on a very tight course if you don't split at the leeward gate.

I can't see how the number of Aussies and Kiwis in the AC is proof of the "in team" issue. How are a guy from a litle lake in inland Australia and a guy from a small-boat club in a mining suburb somewhere on the Australia coast part of the "in team"??????
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
What we HAVE seen, though, in AC33, AC34 we saw some wrong application of monohull tactics in multihull sailing and we saw some multihull handling mistakes than many of us made when we first started sailing multihulls (but, notably, I don't recall seeing Groupama making any of these types of errors). We've still seen a little bit of this in AC35 but not nearly as much - they are mostly past the inexperience curve.


THIS is my biggest concern when taking monohull sailors and putting them into major multihull regattas (AC, Olympics, etc.). There are VERY, VERY few people who can successfully make this transition.

I won't speak for Jake, but when I hear a comparison of monos to cats, I think the folks with the best (only?) chance are apparent-wind sailors (49ers, Foiling Moths, etc.). As Garda mentioned, it's not so much about boat handling, but IMHO is all about race strategy and tactics.

EDIT: I'm certainly NOT saying that smart monohull sailors can't learn this, it just takes a long time. How long depends on a lot of factors, but I'd measure it in cycles rather than months or even years.

Mike


Santiago Lange went from 9th in the 1996 Olympics in a Laser to 10th in the 2000 Games in a Tornado and then to medals. Fernando Leon was 4th in 470s at the 1992 Olympics, 6th in the Olympic keelboat in 1996, and won Gold in Olympic cat in 2000. So people from "old school mono" classes can get into apparent wind classes and do as well or do better than they used to within a cycle.

As noted, if people using "wrong tactics" could get 6th and 7th in the Moth and A Class worlds (which Spithill and Slingsby have done) then the Moth and A Class guys must be pretty bad. Personally I reckon the top A Class guys and Moth guys are fantastic, and therefore the people who can get up with them must not be using "wrong tactics".

Spithill was as high as 4th in the 2008 Australian A Class titles and 6th in the worlds in 2009, before AC33 was sailed. That's hardly the effort of someone who was going to go on and make multihull rookie mistakes.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by garda
Well the guy who is calling the splits is a world-class "apparent wind" sailor - 7th in one Moth worlds, a heat win and a bunch of seconds (and lots of broken kit) in 2015. He's got top 3 in heats in the A Class worlds but is too heavy for the class (IIRC). And the guy steering the boat into the splits was 6th in the A Class worlds and has been extremely competitive against guys of the quality of Steve Brewin and Outteridge in other regattas.

If they are so cr*p and "old school" tactically then how did they do well in the worlds against those who specialise in Moths and A Class?

If the tactician was influenced by his "old school mono thinking" then he'd do the usual thing that Laser sailors do, and stick with the opposition. By the way, you may find that saying "not too hard" to pick shifts better than Ashby and Burling is incorrect.

Yes, sticking with the opposition while you try to analyse the speed deficit is one option. These guys are so good, and have so many people off the boat watching them and recording stuff, that it's understandable that they take a different choice. It's also much, much harder to get leverage on a very tight course if you don't split at the leeward gate.

I can't see how the number of Aussies and Kiwis in the AC is proof of the "in team" issue. How are a guy from a litle lake in inland Australia and a guy from a small-boat club in a mining suburb somewhere on the Australia coast part of the "in team"??????



I'm not saying they don't know what they're doing. I'm also not saying they don't know a lot more than me and maybe they had some magic plan (that clearly didn't work out - repeatedly). I've clarified that I don't get paid to sail. But, for the sake of discussion, I just don't see how that split helped Oracle at all. I understand leverage - but that only works if you are sailing into better wind and/or better angle for a shorter distance. They were not AND they sailed a longer path to get there. Professionals are capable of making mistakes.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by garda
Well the guy who is calling the splits is a world-class "apparent wind" sailor - 7th in one Moth worlds, a heat win and a bunch of seconds (and lots of broken kit) in 2015. He's got top 3 in heats in the A Class worlds but is too heavy for the class (IIRC). And the guy steering the boat into the splits was 6th in the A Class worlds and has been extremely competitive against guys of the quality of Steve Brewin and Outteridge in other regattas.

If they are so cr*p and "old school" tactically then how did they do well in the worlds against those who specialise in Moths and A Class?

If the tactician was influenced by his "old school mono thinking" then he'd do the usual thing that Laser sailors do, and stick with the opposition. By the way, you may find that saying "not too hard" to pick shifts better than Ashby and Burling is incorrect.

Yes, sticking with the opposition while you try to analyse the speed deficit is one option. These guys are so good, and have so many people off the boat watching them and recording stuff, that it's understandable that they take a different choice. It's also much, much harder to get leverage on a very tight course if you don't split at the leeward gate.

I can't see how the number of Aussies and Kiwis in the AC is proof of the "in team" issue. How are a guy from a litle lake in inland Australia and a guy from a small-boat club in a mining suburb somewhere on the Australia coast part of the "in team"??????




As far as the "in-crowd" goes...Aussies and New Zealand sailors became the hot ticket item when the cup was finally taken from the US. I use the team nationality makeup as an example of the "in-crowd" mentality because there are a lot of good and great sailors from other nations but the perception has been that you need to have a New Zealand or Australian sailors on your team to be competitive. You generally need to either start your own team, or have an OUTSTANDING resume to get a roll on teams compromised from "little lake in inland Australia and a guy from a small-boat club in a mining suburb somewhere on the Australia coast" You are basically making my point for me in this regard. A guy in a little inland lake in Australia can make it but that generally doesn't happen from other countries.

I'm not bitter - it's not like I ever tried to get on a team or anything...but there is definitely an in-crowd that teams like to depend on for cup sailors - otherwise, it wouldn't be as difficult to have some sort of nationality requirement for some percentage of the team.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by garda


As noted, if people using "wrong tactics" could get 6th and 7th in the Moth and A Class worlds (which Spithill and Slingsby have done) then the Moth and A Class guys must be pretty bad.


I'm not going as far as to say that, but fleet racing and match racing could be considered different disciplines.

It has been said that two-boat tactics in a fleet race are quite slow. Splitting with your opponent in a match race could be death, too.


All of these folk are at the pointy end of (any) fleet which justifies why they were picked for the AC campaign and can adapt/interpret very quickly.

If your boat was ever so slightly slower than the other boat, would you risk splitting the course on the chance the leading boat picked the wrong side of the course? Even if this meant an extra set of tacks/gybes which we all know costs several boatlengths (possibly more in AC boats)?

That's a gamble these teams have to make. In some cases, I think they'd have a hard time explaining to management why they didn't split (since I assume the management/coaches are "old school" match racers as well?).

But these new boats certainly call for new match racing tactics. How can you pressure the other team into a mistake... a mistake being dipping the windward hull or dropping off a foiling tack, or even having to point higher than the optimal angle for that team's foil package?

I noticed that the hunting maneuvers did seem to be more effective than I would have originally thought due to the speeds involved...

Seeing SWE drive all over NZL on many of the starts brought it home that new match racing tactics had to be employed... Simple things like off-wind starting lines all the way to complex things like different foils on each side of the boat to capitalize on that first/last reaching leg.

If NZL doesn't build fluid pressure as quickly, maybe USA needs to force them to make multiple maneuvers in the hopes that they'll drop off the foil.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 02:34 PM

"Your Majesty, there is no second."

In the AC or Olympics, if you don't win, you're not a success. Period. Harsh? Sure, but it's reality. Top 10 is not winning, it's a list of the top nine teams that lost.

I have no problem with the splitting (unless it's complete desperation), but if not well planned, results in poorly executed (and extra) maneuvers, which is a horrific idea in fast boats that turn slowly.

Am I a world-class sailor? No. But I'm friends with more than a few, and have seen first-hand that extra tacks or gybes rarely work out on cats, and leebowing is a concept that is a complete joke on a catamaran. Anyone who tries it (leebowing) should be immediately removed from the course, along with the tactician and anyone else responsible for the decision, and never allowed back on a cat. Ever.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 06:23 PM

Ahh...I meant to bring up NZ hydraulics earlier too. I hope we get a full technical breakdown of the boats at some point but I doubt we'll ever be left with more than our own conjecture based on some limited guesswork.

NZ should have more capacity to generate hydraulic pressure with their pedaling stations vs. the hand crank grinding stations. However, we have seen them have hydraulic power limitations at least as much as the other teams...which means, either they're not generating more power with the biking stations or they're using more hydraulic power than the average team. Given that they've even elected for a push-button hydraulic mainsheet system over the hydraulic powered drum winch, they probably elected to have more hydraulic controls throughout their wing than the others...and knowing that this was on the table, went with the bike stations so they could have a chance to keep up with that hydraulic demand. I think Ashby has more detailed control of the wing than other teams and that it consumes a good deal of hydraulic power....or, possibly, their ride height system moves more giving them better control on their side grip upwind while consuming more stored energy.

Man, what I would give for an hour alone with either boat with the wing skin off and hatches open ;-).
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 06:50 PM

I think you're right that they may have more hydraulic demand on NZL.

Your earlier point about the cyclors having free hands to adjust things seems to me as a key strategy so you can designate people certain tasks rather than have one or two folks control all that while they are trying to get their head out of the boat and watch strategy, wind, etc.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 09:07 PM

Did you all watch the Red Bull Youth AC races?

Was that last mark on last race (Day 2, Race 6) the most unbelievable regatta finish ever?

And the cameras missed most of it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 09:13 PM

It was epic. Sorry I forgot to post the link. Here it is for replay.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I think you're right that they may have more hydraulic demand on NZL.

Your earlier point about the cyclors having free hands to adjust things seems to me as a key strategy so you can designate people certain tasks rather than have one or two folks control all that while they are trying to get their head out of the boat and watch strategy, wind, etc.


There was some rumor circulating that the rear cyclor had twist handle grips to control the flight height of the boat...I'm not sure about that. After reading several of the rule clarifications, I suspect he has a gear ratio control for the group of cyclors there. One of the requests specifically asked about an automatic gear change system based on hydraulic pressure and the measurement committee said that any gear change had to be manual. While they can probably do some simple tasks, their heads are mostly down and they're really cranking out the energy - I don't think they can really do much else.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
"Your Majesty, there is no second."

In the AC or Olympics, if you don't win, you're not a success. Period. Harsh? Sure, but it's reality. Top 10 is not winning, it's a list of the top nine teams that lost.

I have no problem with the splitting (unless it's complete desperation), but if not well planned, results in poorly executed (and extra) maneuvers, which is a horrific idea in fast boats that turn slowly.

Am I a world-class sailor? No. But I'm friends with more than a few, and have seen first-hand that extra tacks or gybes rarely work out on cats, and leebowing is a concept that is a complete joke on a catamaran. Anyone who tries it (leebowing) should be immediately removed from the course, along with the tactician and anyone else responsible for the decision, and never allowed back on a cat. Ever.

Mike
I don't think any top sailor I know really has that attitude. In fact if you do have that attitude what does it say about all of us. Everyone is a failure by that standard.

The point is that you don't get 6th or 7th in a world title in a significant class like As or Moths by being crappy at tactics and making lots of mistakes. It can also be said that foiling cats are tacking faster than seahuggers and that it could be "old school seahugger tactics" to be too concerned about an extra tack.

We could either learn from these experts or sit back and say that they are getting it all wrong and that we are much smarter than they are. Surely the former is more logical and useful.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


There was some rumor circulating that the rear cyclor had twist handle grips to control the flight height of the boat...I'm not sure about that. After reading several of the rule clarifications, I suspect he has a gear ratio control for the group of cyclors there. One of the requests specifically asked about an automatic gear change system based on hydraulic pressure and the measurement committee said that any gear change had to be manual. While they can probably do some simple tasks, their heads are mostly down and they're really cranking out the energy - I don't think they can really do much else.

One of the cyclors confirmed that he controls the foils from his handlebars.
In some of the racing footage you can also see that they do not all output the same amount of power, the guy doing the foils doesn't go into the red like the other guys do.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 10:41 PM

wow. Crazy finish! Thanks for sharing link PM. The youth teams are such much fun to watch because they make so many mistakes!

Which brings up a point of our earlier rules discussion. 10 seconds (or any set reasonable time) would not have been adequate for penalizing the swiss. Having them get behind the German boat was probably a fair penalty there...and a good example of when to sail clean...Germany could have aborted their rounding, spun up, tacked, and rounded again in a much less painful way that forking the mark.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/22/17 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


As far as the "in-crowd" goes...Aussies and New Zealand sailors became the hot ticket item when the cup was finally taken from the US. I use the team nationality makeup as an example of the "in-crowd" mentality because there are a lot of good and great sailors from other nations but the perception has been that you need to have a New Zealand or Australian sailors on your team to be competitive. You generally need to either start your own team, or have an OUTSTANDING resume to get a roll on teams compromised from "little lake in inland Australia and a guy from a small-boat club in a mining suburb somewhere on the Australia coast" You are basically making my point for me in this regard. A guy in a little inland lake in Australia can make it but that generally doesn't happen from other countries.

I'm not bitter - it's not like I ever tried to get on a team or anything...but there is definitely an in-crowd that teams like to depend on for cup sailors - otherwise, it wouldn't be as difficult to have some sort of nationality requirement for some percentage of the team.


I suppose it depends on what you call having an "in crowd" and how strong it is, and to what extent it's just getting people who are known quantities on small boats and big. The Aussies and NZ sailors (and now the British sailors) became a hot ticket item when their nations were on top at the Olympics. Most, if not all, of them got their spots on AC teams by winning multiple world titles and Olympic medals. There's no recent 49er gold medallist sitting at home. There's no recent cat gold medallist sitting at home. That seems more like a meritocracy than an in-crowd.

The guy from the little country lake got there by winning multiple world A Class titles. The guy from the little mining surburb got there by winning multiple world titles and gold in 49ers and Moths. They weren't handed anything on a platter and the support they got in their early careers largely came from middle-class family and friends. They earned their spots by winning lots.

There are a couple of gaping holes in the rosters, though (there's no women, no 470 sailors and no windsurfers) but there seems to be no evidence that it's an in-crowd/out-crowd issue. Given the close links between Aussie Olympians from different classes, for example, it would seem unlikely that people like Slingsby are excluding the 470 sailors and windsurfers.

Anyway, I'll end by just saying that these guys are there because they are brilliant sailors in slow boats and fast ones, and the moves they are making are likely to be the best ones in the situation they are in.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 12:35 AM

Garda, you're helping to make my point. You don't get a ticket to the AC without winning. Not placing, but winning. And, none of those guys actually go to the AC just to place. If you truly believe that, watch the losers at each of their pressers. They all try to put on a good face for the team, but none of them really accept losing (which is a GOOD thing).

And, I never once referred to any of us, who would be thrilled to be top 10 in any regatta, so don't be confused about that.

And, since you obviously missed this too, a flying boat that is tacking is MUCH slower than a flying boat going straight. True, a flying boat also risks coming off the foils by tacking, but a flying tack is still slower than a flying boat going straight. It's the same concept as any floating cat (extra tacks are slow and should be avoided unless a significant gain can be made). Look at the meters on the replays if you don't believe me.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 01:15 AM

On to more important things...

It's Thursday night. The current forecast for Saturday is a repeat of last weekend.

What has Oracle been doing? Are there any news reports of their progress or practice sailing?

Have we missed any pressers since last weekend?

Mike
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
And, since you obviously missed this too, a flying boat that is tacking is MUCH slower than a flying boat going straight. True, a flying boat also risks coming off the foils by tacking, but a flying tack is still slower than a flying boat going straight. It's the same concept as any floating cat (extra tacks are slow and should be avoided unless a significant gain can be made). Look at the meters on the replays if you don't believe me.

Mike


I believe I heard one of the announcers (Outterage??) say that each maneuver cost them at least 30-50 meters. And that was if everything was ideal.

Minimizing your maneuvers and forcing the other team to make more would seem to me to give you the best chance. More chances for the opponents to make a bad gibe or tack and that seems to be where the biggest gains are made. Going to the wrong side just to split seems to me to be a fool's gamble.
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Garda, you're helping to make my point. You don't get a ticket to the AC without winning. Not placing, but winning. And, none of those guys actually go to the AC just to place. If you truly believe that, watch the losers at each of their pressers. They all try to put on a good face for the team, but none of them really accept losing (which is a GOOD thing).

And, I never once referred to any of us, who would be thrilled to be top 10 in any regatta, so don't be confused about that.

And, since you obviously missed this too, a flying boat that is tacking is MUCH slower than a flying boat going straight. True, a flying boat also risks coming off the foils by tacking, but a flying tack is still slower than a flying boat going straight. It's the same concept as any floating cat (extra tacks are slow and should be avoided unless a significant gain can be made). Look at the meters on the replays if you don't believe me.

Mike

Yes, you get to the AC by winning, but that does not mean that everyone bar the winner in other regattas is a "loser". AC winners DO sometimes accept losing when it's for reasons out of their control - I've sailed with a couple. To say that people like Steve Brewin are "losers" when they run second in a worlds is pretty damn insulting.

I didn't say that you don't lose by tacking. The point was that many say that you lose less by tacking a foiler then by tacking a seahugger. The only other choice is to follow but somehow put the leader "under pressure". Even when you're just winning at national level (and I know for a fact that you are wrong to say that we would all be thrilled to be top 10 in any nationals regatta - to some here, 10th is losing) you're not normally "under pressure" when you have a comfortable lead and the other boat is following you - especially when you are sailing the Kiwi boat with its bigger foils and therefore probably more reliable tacking.

[u][/u][s][/s]
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by KentHobie


Minimizing your maneuvers and forcing the other team to make more would seem to me to give you the best chance. More chances for the opponents to make a bad gibe or tack and that seems to be where the biggest gains are made. Going to the wrong side just to split seems to me to be a fool's gamble.
Well, if these guys are fools then I look forward to you showing how much smarter you are, by beating them or at least winning the H16 worlds.

The Kiwis DID do a fairly bad tack when OTUSA split, and OTUSA gained. If you don't split then they can just cover you out to the boundary and/or tack when they have the right pressure and angle, and extend their lead. Ironically, on other forums the Kiwis are getting bagged for not covering enough.

Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 02:00 PM

I get what Garda is saying about the in-crowd...a lot of jobs in the America's Cup are, indeed, born out of Olympic success and that does define a path that's not necessarily a closed door system. I still think they were slow to adopt any multihull sailors during the DOG match, but we've belabored this point.

I do still stand by Oracle's splits as a mistake and what happened afterwards is pretty solid evidence of it not being the correct move. As far as this being "hindsight", just ask my wife how much I was expressing the same thought as it was happening live ;-). When they were behind by one boat length at the leeward gate, it was as if they gave up and sailed a longer route to the wrong side of the course because they had absolutely zero confidence that they could do anything to pass New Zealand. This wild chance "roll the dice" move hardly ever works in real life. My entire growth as a racer has been to abandon risky moves and build the patience to focus on getting small gains. When someone is faster than me and I need to beat them, I try to stay as close as possible and see what I can do to match or improve on their speed. When I'm behind by only a little, stay close, look for small gains. Use the other boat as a tell as to the wind that I'm about to get and pounce on it to pick up a boat length every tack and nibble away at that small lead. Look for an opportunity to tack just a little sooner or a little later and get a little advantage. That said, if I find myself behind by a huge amount and I'm entering the last lap of the race, yeah, I'm probably going to roll the dice but only after I've exhausted all hope. I do still struggle sometimes with this patience and the result is pretty obvious when I haven't controlled it.

If you are in the lead, as in New Zealand's case in the last four races, Oracle's expended so much race course just getting to a split that it gave NZ enough of a lead that they could sail across the entire course on the wrong shift, maintain cover, and still maintain their lead (and they were NOT on the wrong shift coming around the bottom). Absolutely NZ should just sail their own race at that point. The tight cover, cover, cover, is also a bit of a standover of monohull sailing. Now, it is certainly still valid in a good deal of multihull sailing but again, if you have enough of a lead and the wind is obviously stable enough that you can count on your lead being enough to get to your competitor and still maintain a lead no matter what, just sail on. I mean, seriously, New Zealand stretched on just about every leg - it's hard to find fault in their tactics.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 03:33 PM

Of course, with NZL consistency, it's hard to just sit there on the hip and "wait" for them to make a mistake....

As agressive as Spithill is, I'm sure there would be stuff they'd try to get Burling to blink and do something just 'wrong' enough to gain... Sort of Jake's strategy. Pick small things and eventually they add up ...

Also, in the light air, it almost appears as they are just barely keeping the foils working... So a major move like tack/gybe would be a gamble

But yes, I'm THAT GUY who always thinks taking a flyer is a good idea (at the time)... so my armchair skippering is just as flawed as my lower mid-fleet standing
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/23/17 06:06 PM

There are certainly no easy answers with this stuff. I believe that following the lead boat rarely works at this level, unless the lead boat really screws up. I believe that tacking for tight covering is risky. I also believe that not applying a loose cover is foolish. These are all things I've thought (and probably posted here) as races were unfolding.

I respect every person on these boats. They are far better sailors than I will likely ever have the opportunity to become. I really just can't stand the thought of watching another leebow attempt...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 01:51 PM

If the teams agree, there will be 3 races tomorrow. My guess is they will wait for today's results and Sunday and Monday weather forecast. 8 pm deadline tonight on the team agreements.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 02:14 PM

Wind forecast 8-11 knots and shifty.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 03:08 PM

Jimmy needs to win some starts (like, seven in a row...).

Never thought I'd be saying that after watching SWE own NZL in the challenger finals.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:02 PM

Paul Cayard doing live over at BT Sports. JS suffered a minor wrist injury. Great coverage at BT Sports. NBC . . . nothing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:10 PM

Oracle hit 40 knts in prestart
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:14 PM

...And Harris just called NZL "The Challenger of Record." Um, no....

...And we blow yet another start. Yikes.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:16 PM

we've got a race
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:17 PM

No split, but USA tacked first after rounding. NZL higher out of their tack.

Coming to first cross USA in front, but will be on port for the next cross.

Much better race today!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:18 PM

Awful call
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:19 PM

Cheap penalty against USA, they kept clear and had nowhere to go.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:22 PM

NZL extending, USA splits at the weather gate. Huge deficit here.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:24 PM

USA just stopped in the middle of a gybe. Apparently out of oil pressure.

Academic really, NZL had a much deeper angle on the run.

We need a postponement card, lol...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:26 PM

I'm not sure what oracle could have done to avoid that penalty with how they were up against the boundary.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:34 PM

NZL 4, USA 0...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I'm not sure what oracle could have done to avoid that penalty with how they were up against the boundary.


They needed to plan ahead a bit more, they knew that cross was coming, probably needed to slow down and maybe tack sooner to have a better duck.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
They needed to plan ahead a bit more, they knew that cross was coming, probably needed to slow down and maybe tack sooner to have a better duck.

Mike

That's absurd.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:47 PM

What would you have done? There was no way they were going to cross ahead.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 05:53 PM

Oracle did it text book perfect. Tack earlier and you loose your boundary privileges. They re-acted to the dial down and stayed clear as good as they could coming off a boundary tack. It was just a bad call.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:03 PM

It has been very nice to have Chris and Nathan on commentary. Good call NBC.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:13 PM

What was all that talk about splits??
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:16 PM

Wow, this is a fun one!

Surprising how the lead boats aren't covering (loosely), it's hurt them both.

Nathan did say that they've found that following around into a tack is faster than gybing going into the gate to gain a split.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:17 PM

Finally! NZL 4, USA 1!!!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Oracle did it text book perfect. Tack earlier and you loose your boundary privileges. They re-acted to the dial down and stayed clear as good as they could coming off a boundary tack. It was just a bad call.


It looked like they could have turned down more, but didn't expect NZL to hold the dial down as long. I didn't like the call at first, but it looks correct in the replays. Probably could have gone as a no-penalty, but I don't think it was a horrible call.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Wow, this is a fun one!

Surprising how the lead boats aren't covering (loosely), it's hurt them both.

Nathan did say that they've found that following around into a tack is faster than gybing going into the gate to gain a split.

Mike


Exactly! I still think that at least one time I saw them tack, it was into a header so just tacking to get a split isn't great - but the other time that was executed, it looked even and like a decent move. It's soooo hard to cover in that kind of breeze. It costs so much while maneuvering to stay on your opponent that you are likely putting yourself in jeopardy. The question is how confident you are in the patch of water you are sailing in and toward.

So, the dial down. I see two advantages but I'm lost on what it does for you otherwise. If you can force your opponent to get a penalty during the maneuver (particularly if they're just tacking away from the boundary where there doesn't appear like there is anyway to avoid getting a penalty), sure...looks great. If you can force your opponent to be much tighter on their layline, also looks great. But just executing a dial down in the middle of the course for no reason other than you're headed right at each other, what's the point? You both go equally faster and you're now distracted from what the wind is doing. I'm not a fan of the move unless one of the other scenarios is present.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 07:01 PM

Presser live here
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/24/17 07:14 PM

I think the dial-down is crucial. You're right, the goal is ultimately a (rare) penalty. Remember, the stbd boat going into the dial-down will be port on the next cross. If everything else is even, they'll be behind after the next cross without a penalty.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 01:15 PM

Race 6 stats (course wind 9 kts):

Average Speed:
26.71 kts
USA

26.65 kts
NZL

NUMBER OF TACKS & GYBES:
19
USA

17
NZL

DISTANCE SAILED:
USA
4489.6 (m)

NZL
4249 (m)

Oracle has found some speed but at the sacrifice of boat handling, which could be the Achilles heal in a critical maneuver. Oracle sailed a longer course, had two more tacks than NZ, and still won. The difference was reflected in the legs with significant gains, like leg 6, and the upwind legs. Both teams were equal in speed upwind and the tactics, position, and being on the favorable side of the slightest shift paid big for Oracle.

If the racing remains tight, the team that wins the upwind legs, will likely win the cup, just like AC34.

TIME OF EACH LEG:
LEG USA NZL
1 44 secs 48.2 secs
2 89.1 secs 91.1 secs
3 308.8 secs 315.1 secs
4 213 secs 194.9 secs
5 352.2 secs 358.1 secs
6 106.5 secs 126.3 secs
7 133.3 secs 124.9 secs

On the final reaching leg NZ reduced an 18 seconds deficit down to 11 seconds.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 01:17 PM

Damon, the quick reply or the full editor will not accept consecutive spaces. I can't seem to get it to work. FYI.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Race 6 stats Average Speed:
26.71 kts
USA

26.65 kts
NZL

DISTANCE SAILED:
USA
4489.6 (m)

NZL
4249 (m).

Those numbers don't add up. If USA sailed 4489.6 meters at an average speed of 26.71 knots (13.74 meters per second), then they sailed for 326.8 seconds. Likewise, if NZL sailed 4249 meters at an average speed of 26.65 knots (13.71 meters per second), they sailed for 309.9 seconds.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by P.M.
Race 6 stats Average Speed:
26.71 kts
USA

26.65 kts
NZL

DISTANCE SAILED:
USA
4489.6 (m)

NZL
4249 (m).

Those numbers don't add up. If USA sailed 4489.6 meters at an average speed of 26.71 knots (13.74 meters per second), then they sailed for 326.8 seconds. Likewise, if NZL sailed 4249 meters at an average speed of 26.65 knots (13.71 meters per second), they sailed for 309.9 seconds.

Data came from here:
Match Race 6 Stats
the website is reporting it wrong (looks like it is reporting just one downwind leg), but the app is reporting it correctly, but race 5 & 6 hasn't been updated yet in the app. Nice catch Eric.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 03:06 PM

Wind forecast 8-9 knts from the south.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 03:35 PM

Very entertaining presser! Not much in terms of technical info on the boat changes (who really expected that?), but lots of insight into the psyche on Oracle.

Listening to their comments on the dial-down penalty, and watching it again, it certainly could have gone either way and maybe green would have been a better call. Either boat could have been penalyzed, with more focus on port, so I understand the penalty call going against USA. Jimmy certainly thinks NZL got away with another one.

Burling just needs to lose. I really don't like his attitude. Saying that he wants to keep the regatta out of the hands of the umpires doesn't gel with constantly pushing that button. That, and every time something shows his team as slow (being passed or losing), he reverts to claiming that the boat is still suffering from the pitchpole three weeks ago. I just can't respect that attitude. It's akin to Ainsle whining about being a new team and being too far behind in development.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 05:19 PM

Oh boy, I missed the actual start, but saw the bottom half of leg 2. Interesting that both Draper and Nathan were saying that following was a huge mistake (even before it happened). They both would have double-gybed and split at the bottom.

NZL looking slightly faster upwind, covering tighter, now blowing it open by covering more loosely.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 05:22 PM

Someone must have read a match racing book to Burling and company. They loosely covered after the weather gate, minimizing the damage after Oracle split and rounded into a better shift/pressure.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 05:28 PM

Loose cover again after the leeward gate. It's going to be tough to pass.

Just saw the replay of the start. Yikes, Jimmy either doesn't have confidence in his instruments (as he mentioned in yesterday's presser), or just misjudged his timing and turns. Uncharacteristic error, that's for sure.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 05:29 PM

Maybe Oracle just needs to run this to 6-1 to mount a proper comeback???

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 05:32 PM

NZL 5, USA 1...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:01 PM

Seriously??? The pre-start of Race 8 was just embarrassing. Spithill allowed Burling to get the hook (Burling then waved to him when under him, a bit of a taunt, I thought), then just couldn't get any boatspeed to get to the line. Wow.

Split at the bottom, NZL tacked to apply loose cover. USA going faster at the moment.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:04 PM

Nathan is saying that the fancy NZL prestart maneuver was done by Ashby as Burling was running across the tramp. If true, that aggravates me even more about that wave.

NZL more tightly covering here. USA looking desperate with some of these tacking decisions.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:05 PM

Wow, as I type that USA sails out of bounds (totally unforced)...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:12 PM

...and a blown gybe coming into the bottom gate...

Draper and Nathan are giving Ashby tons of credit, and acknowledging his deep prior catamaran experience, as well as overall involvement with the team and boat/design.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:15 PM

Ridiculous gains by NZL on that weather leg.

Loosely covering downwind again.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:17 PM

OK, we're there. NZL 6, USA 1. Now the regatta begins???

Oracle is one stupid mistake away from giving up the Cup. But, they're averaging more than one of those per race...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:25 PM

Glen was unique in the sailing world with world championship success in developing sails and foiling systems before this generation of AC sailing. He almost got it done in the previous cup. I don't think you can overstate his contribution over 4 years to making New Zealand go. Sure the helm gets the most glory... but Asby is a genius!
So here we are again..... one win to close it out.... WHAT CAN ASBY BE FEELING right now..... Wow.

A sports psychologist can right a book right now on a GASBY Case Study..

props!!!
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:26 PM

Very impressed with Jimmy in the post-race on-water interview. No excuses, admitted to sailing poorly and making errors; more importantly, gave credit to NZL for outsailing him. Burling, Ainsle et al need to learn from this guy.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:31 PM

Great points, Mark. Those of us lamenting to see more guys with beach cat heritage in the event should be rooting for Ashby. Just wish he was on our team...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Oh boy, I missed the actual start, but saw the bottom half of leg 2. Interesting that both Draper and Nathan were saying that following was a huge mistake (even before it happened). They both would have double-gybed and split at the bottom.

NZL looking slightly faster upwind, covering tighter, now blowing it open by covering more loosely.

Mike


Well, truthfully, I thought Oracle sailed that correctly. Even when they did split, after rounding the same gate mark behind NZ, they picked the right spot and tacked right into a lift and it looked like they they made the right move...but that lift was short lived and they ended up in a header on the wrong side of the course AND with less pressure. It is not easy sailing these faster than wind boats in light and puffy stuff. I thought Burling and Ashby were doing a really terrific job of managing risk today.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 07:01 PM

I would LOVE to have heard their coaches.....seems like they got told to trust their boat speed and handling and trade distance for protection. Do it.... Outeridge and Draper made a point about the young guys soaking up knowledge... I would add... they simply are not getting out of the team concept.

My hunch is that the boys on the boat truly get how much of a team effort their success is and they are not celebrating as if they alone beat Oracle.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 09:54 PM

It's very telling how surprised everyone seemed to be with that pre-start maneuver by NZL. They tacked, bore way off and got the hook in very little water. As much as I dislike Burling in the pressers, I'll definitely hand it to him for pulling that off (it looked like he had as much to do with it as Ashby).

Still don't think he needed to throw in that wave.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/25/17 11:51 PM

Today's presser...



Mike
Posted By: Dazz

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:49 AM

Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:07 PM

what time is the racing today?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
It's very telling how surprised everyone seemed to be with that pre-start maneuver by NZL. They tacked, bore way off and got the hook in very little water. As much as I dislike Burling in the pressers, I'll definitely hand it to him for pulling that off (it looked like he had as much to do with it as Ashby).

Still don't think he needed to throw in that wave.

Mike


Lol, I still need to go back and watch it. I'm wouldn't be offended by that wave - Spithill has been talking trash ever since he's been in the America's Cup. That's what trash talking gets you.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:13 PM

Same time as usual.
1PM EST
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:25 PM

So what happens when NZ takes the cup?

Are foiling cats done? Are we back to yawnfest monohulls? Is NZ going to put a stranglehold on the cup by insisting that all of the team members be from the country of the challenger?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dazz


RIP, Bill.

Sadly, we lost him in February.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Paxton

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
It's very telling how surprised everyone seemed to be with that pre-start maneuver by NZL. They tacked, bore way off and got the hook in very little water. As much as I dislike Burling in the pressers, I'll definitely hand it to him for pulling that off (it looked like he had as much to do with it as Ashby).

Still don't think he needed to throw in that wave.

Mike


Lol, I still need to go back and watch it. I'm wouldn't be offended by that wave - Spithill has been talking trash ever since he's been in the America's Cup. That's what trash talking gets you.


Maybe that's my long-term memory starting to fade, but I don't remember anything like that in this cycle.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
So what happens when NZ takes the cup?

Are foiling cats done? Are we back to yawnfest monohulls? Is NZ going to put a stranglehold on the cup by insisting that all of the team members be from the country of the challenger?


I suspect that a good portion ​of that will depend upon their COR. Who do we expect that to be?

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
So what happens when NZ takes the cup?

Are foiling cats done? Are we back to yawnfest monohulls? Is NZ going to put a stranglehold on the cup by insisting that all of the team members be from the country of the challenger?


I suspect that a good portion​of that will depend upon their COR. Who do we expect that to be?

Mike


Supposedly Luna Rossa.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 12:54 PM

Thanks
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 01:33 PM

Since I didn't watch the BT version with Cayard (probably should, but I do like Nathan & Draper's comments).. Too bad the three of them couldn't be on the same show.

Questions:
- Did Oracle really remove an accumulator? If so, Burling needs to drive all over him to force maneuvers and kill the oil pressure
- Oracle does have trouble getting up on foils in the light stuff, so I could see how NZL could pull off that hook.
- Did Draper really say that Ashby has something of an "app for that"? I think he said Algorithm that sets wing parameters... like you were saying about "following the dot" He also said Tuke was controlling the ride foils.

The guy who washes the wing at night likely has more sailing ability in his pinky finger than I will ever get during my life, so major props to all the teams (FRA included). This has been the most exciting cup series I've watched since the 80's. No one has really run away with things (well, except for NZL lately but I don't think it's due to groundbreaking design like AUS II or the USA trimaran).

There were plenty of nail-biter races (SWE/NZL comes to mind most often), and deltas of 30 seconds are considered "runaway" victories.... Hell, I remember deltas of 5 minutes or more being a close race in days of yore...

And whether the AC developed these technologies or not, I do hope some of it trickles down to the rest of sailing. Automated ride height, wing foil controls, and even basic foil shapes should make sport boat/multihull sailing more fast, safe and fun.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake


Lol, I still need to go back and watch it. I'm wouldn't be offended by that wave - Spithill has been talking trash ever since he's been in the America's Cup. That's what trash talking gets you.


Maybe that's my long-term memory starting to fade, but I don't remember anything like that in this cycle.

Mike


It hasn't been that bad this time around...there was some slightly snarky stuff from Spithill on Saturday. The last iteration, though, really set off New Zealand and their media is really being tough on him. As is Clean from Sailing Anarchy. Clean asked him if he felt like he was too old and then started asking Burling if he expected Oracle to switch helmsmen. Some New Zealand media asked Jimmy (and I paraphrase loosely) if he was saying that a team sponsored by a computer / data company was having trouble with their computers/data on the start line. Ouch.

Oh, and BTW, it's our very own Laura Muma - Chicago and Florida catsailor (A-cat & F18) who is hosting many of those press conferences!

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


Oh, and BTW, it's our very own Laura Muma - Chicago and Florida catsailor (A-cat & F18) who is hosting many of those press conferences!



Isn't Ding her crew sometimes?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Since I didn't watch the BT version with Cayard (probably should, but I do like Nathan & Draper's comments).. Too bad the three of them couldn't be on the same show.

Questions:
- Did Oracle really remove an accumulator? If so, Burling needs to drive all over him to force maneuvers and kill the oil pressure
- Oracle does have trouble getting up on foils in the light stuff, so I could see how NZL could pull off that hook.
- Did Draper really say that Ashby has something of an "app for that"? I think he said Algorithm that sets wing parameters... like you were saying about "following the dot" He also said Tuke was controlling the ride foils.

The guy who washes the wing at night likely has more sailing ability in his pinky finger than I will ever get during my life, so major props to all the teams (FRA included). This has been the most exciting cup series I've watched since the 80's. No one has really run away with things (well, except for NZL lately but I don't think it's due to groundbreaking design like AUS II or the USA trimaran).

There were plenty of nail-biter races (SWE/NZL comes to mind most often), and deltas of 30 seconds are considered "runaway" victories.... Hell, I remember deltas of 5 minutes or more being a close race in days of yore...

And whether the AC developed these technologies or not, I do hope some of it trickles down to the rest of sailing. Automated ride height, wing foil controls, and even basic foil shapes should make sport boat/multihull sailing more fast, safe and fun.


I didn't hear about them actually removing anything other than the stairstepper but I suppose it's possible. I heard in one of the rule press conferences from Saturday that the class legal boat weight is X +/- 100kgs and they're limited to only making 100kg changes at a time (I think I have that right but you may want to double check that before you put down any money on it!). So, they are limited in how much they can remove...but getting 200lbs out of the boat is quite a lot of stuff being chucked overboard. IF Oracle wasn't sailing right near the minimum weight to begin with, this is another example of them just not being prepared in my opinion.

I still think they're all still guessing a good deal at what control systems they have employed. Remember, though, the rules are very clear: data systems and control systems have to be mechanically and electrically isolated. All wiring has to be clearly labeled and both systems have to have their own electrical disconnect. A computer cannot read a sensor and make an adjustment. A computer can recommend an adjustment and the sailor can react to that recommendation but it has to be on a different device. A computer also cannot recommend an adjustment and perform any mechanical guidance to making that adjustment. All control input has to be "manual" although "manual" can include some degree of firing off timed sequences of control motions (I'm not 100% clear on if that timed sequence can include more than one action per control input but I suspect that it can).
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake


Oh, and BTW, it's our very own Laura Muma - Chicago and Florida catsailor (A-cat & F18) who is hosting many of those press conferences!



Isn't Ding her crew sometimes?


Yes
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
So what happens when NZ takes the cup?

Are foiling cats done? Are we back to yawnfest monohulls? Is NZ going to put a stranglehold on the cup by insisting that all of the team members be from the country of the challenger?


I suspect that a good portion​of that will depend upon their COR. Who do we expect that to be?

Mike


Supposedly Luna Rossa.



LR as COR? On boy. They're probably the only ones (of recent entries) with the spite to want to go back to monohulls.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
So what happens when NZ takes the cup?

Are foiling cats done? Are we back to yawnfest monohulls? Is NZ going to put a stranglehold on the cup by insisting that all of the team members be from the country of the challenger?


I suspect that a good portion​of that will depend upon their COR. Who do we expect that to be?

Mike


Supposedly Luna Rossa.



LR as COR? On boy. They're probably the only ones (of recent entries) with the spite to want to go back to monohulls.

Mike


Supposedly someone interviewed Bertarelli and he said that he was ready to jump back into the AC on the current boats - So who knows whats in store for the future. All I know is that I don't trust the Kiwis. They're vindictive and spiteful - well at least Dalts is.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 02:50 PM

The kiwis don't want an $$ arms race. They struggled with funding this cycle. The current cycle format works in their favor.

I do see NZ government throwing some resources at it if they are defenders.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 04:00 PM

Any attempt to shrink teams and budgets have failed miserably. Sure, there are fewer sailors, but the support teams are massive. It may not be realistic, but I'd really rather have it be the other way around.

BTW, where has Uncle Larry been hiding? I seem to recall him being front and center during the last cycle.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 04:13 PM

I just saw a forecast of 5 mph or less for today. What are you guys seeing?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 04:48 PM

Winds 182 degrees at 9.9 knts, 10.5 peak
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:08 PM

I can't get logged into NBC Sports Network or even get to a login screen on the live screen - anybody else having trouble?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:10 PM

quick fix
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:10 PM

Jake, I have 2 accounts, it happened to me on one of them, the other is working fine. . . . so F*ck NBC
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


A.W.E.S.O.M.E. Thanks
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:16 PM

I agree with the split there...it was a closer gate.

I agree with the NATURE of that split...I can't see the breeze on this low resolution and multitasking on a conference call ;-)
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:20 PM

I was having the same problem on Chrome, even after clearing cookies, etc. No problem on FireFox, didn't even ask me to log in.

We're pretty screwed in this race. Great job at the start, but getting passed like that downwind is not a good omen. Neither Nathan nor Draper were impressed with the gybe before the gate, they would have followed and tacked to gain the split.

NZL just blew a tack!

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:23 PM

This is tough. Oracle gained on a right shift, then went all the way to the left, getting out of phase, and sailed into a hole...

Fat Lady cued up?

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:30 PM

My feed dropped out!!!!!

Ok, I'm back, but this isn't looking better. USA tacked back to the right near the top gate, NZL covering. USA tacked back to stbd, NZL covering.

We need a miracle.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:34 PM

...And didn't get one.

Game over. Let's hope they keep clear heads and cats. Let's also hope we get a USA contender for the next one.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:37 PM

This has saddened me much more than I thought it would.

I was in a funk all yesterday afternoon. Sigh.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
...And didn't get one.

Game over. Let's hope they keep clear heads and cats. Let's also hope we get a USA contender for the next one.

Mike


I hadn't even thought of that until this morning...indeed. What if Ellison isn't interested in it again?

I don't think there has ever been one without an American team in it, though.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I was having the same problem on Chrome, even after clearing cookies, etc. No problem on FireFox, didn't even ask me to log in.

We're pretty screwed in this race. Great job at the start, but getting passed like that downwind is not a good omen. Neither Nathan nor Draper were impressed with the gybe before the gate, they would have followed and tacked to gain the split.

NZL just blew a tack!

Mike


One thing for sure - Nathan and Draper don't agree with me very often - hah! I couldn't hear the broadcast because of my conference call (that I'm still on...as you can tell, the call is really exciting).
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
I was having the same problem on Chrome, even after clearing cookies, etc. No problem on FireFox, didn't even ask me to log in.

We're pretty screwed in this race. Great job at the start, but getting passed like that downwind is not a good omen. Neither Nathan nor Draper were impressed with the gybe before the gate, they would have followed and tacked to gain the split.

NZL just blew a tack!

Mike


One thing for sure - Nathan and Draper don't agree with me very often - hah! I couldn't hear the broadcast because of my conference call (that I'm still on...as you can tell, the call is really exciting).



Don't know if this should make you feel better or worse, but remember that they weren't in the booth because they were winning...

We need a USA team that can take the Cup back. There was at least one recent finals without an American boat.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
I was having the same problem on Chrome, even after clearing cookies, etc. No problem on FireFox, didn't even ask me to log in.

We're pretty screwed in this race. Great job at the start, but getting passed like that downwind is not a good omen. Neither Nathan nor Draper were impressed with the gybe before the gate, they would have followed and tacked to gain the split.

NZL just blew a tack!

Mike


One thing for sure - Nathan and Draper don't agree with me very often - hah! I couldn't hear the broadcast because of my conference call (that I'm still on...as you can tell, the call is really exciting).



Don't know if this should make you feel better or worse, but remember that they weren't in the booth because they were winning...

We need a USA team that can take the Cup back. There was at least one recent finals without an American boat.

Mike


Well if the rumored 80% rule goes into effect then a lot of standing rosters are going to be changing. Wonder if Jimmy is going to survive as skipper at OTUSA... I love the guy but a lot of the pre-starts could be laid directly at his feet and we all know how Larry is...
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 06:24 PM

I'd love to see NYYC go after it, just so it has a prayer of coming back to Newport.

Mike
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 07:02 PM

SA is posting Luna Rossa IS the next challenger
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 08:10 PM

Confirmed, Luna Rossa.

Scroll down this page for a video with Ian Cook making the announcement (7:35 am, Kiwi time):

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/spo...dmits-he-stunned-team-nzs-transformation

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 08:59 PM

Well we know that Luna Rossa isn't totally opposed to multihulls in the cup - what do we expect to happen with the AC50 class? Same thing as what happened to the AC72?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 09:12 PM

I don't know about you guys but I thought this round was incredibly boring, with very few lead changes during the racing. I blame the course layout for that, starting with the very first leg being a blast reach rather than a traditional upwind leg, where tactics and strategy figure in just as much as speed. With the first leg being a blast reach, it became just a drag race causing enough separation by the time they turned upwind, all the lead boat had to do was cover the trailing boat.

Blow the start?

Game over.

But even when Oracle won the start, they got rolled right away, which wouldn't have happened if the first leg had been a beat. Sure, they probably would have gotten passed later in the race, because it looked to me like ETNZ's boat was just faster, and/or Ashby is just that much better at trimming the wing.

I have much respect for and congratulations to ETNZ, they were clearly the better boat/team, but I still wish the course had been upwind/downwind rather than starting off with a blast reach. It just made it so dull to watch, not at all as exciting as the last cup in San Fran.

Perhaps the greater wind and tide out there in the SFO Bay added to the constant lead changes as well, but this time around it was really dull.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 09:31 PM

Not sure i'd agree with that Timbo, but I haven't seen an upwind start with these boats. Maybe they would push each other around more before hitting the line, but in my mind, it would end up being a very slow start to the race with each team trying to luff the other.

At least with the offwind start, they can hook or gap... Or maybe even peel a boat off at the mark?

I'd love to think these multihulls are good for more than one AC cycle, but I doubt the costs would justify.

I like the youth AC series, but only because it's fleet racing with folks that make more mistakes than the pros. Kind of like farm league for baseball.

Nationality rules would be cool, but we'd probably get destroyed unless USA could come up with a funding mechanism to attract the top talent.

And I REALLY want Ashby to spill the beans on all that development...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 10:04 PM

Press Conference here

Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Not sure i'd agree with that Timbo, but I haven't seen an upwind start with these boats. Maybe they would push each other around more before hitting the line, but in my mind, it would end up being a very slow start to the race with each team trying to luff the other.

At least with the offwind start, they can hook or gap... Or maybe even peel a boat off at the mark?

I'd love to think these multihulls are good for more than one AC cycle, but I doubt the costs would justify.

I like the youth AC series, but only because it's fleet racing with folks that make more mistakes than the pros. Kind of like farm league for baseball.

Nationality rules would be cool, but we'd probably get destroyed unless USA could come up with a funding mechanism to attract the top talent.

And I REALLY want Ashby to spill the beans on all that development...


Well, even IF there is a nationality rule, there are ways to become a citizen of another country. There have been nationality rules - particularly when NZ last held the cup if I remember correctly...and the people that were going through the paperwork to re-declare citizenship to meet the letter of the rule almost made it a farce. I do support a nationality clause but it won't ever work out close to the ideal that yearns for it. Added to which, instead of looking for that US talent, they'd probably look for ways to speed up citizenship applications....but I'm not convinced that we would necessarily be down and out if we had to draw largely from US talent resources. There would certainly be some long term needs to be addressed, though.

I do hope they don't move too far from this format so we can get another cup cycle within two years. If the go back to the drawing board, it would probably be at least three years before we have another event.

Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/26/17 11:45 PM

OK, so back to NZ control systems...the rear cyclist does have some sort of detailed controls and Outteridge suggests that he is indeed controlling the flight of the system. Having heard that before, I had wondered how he could possibly accomplish that with his head down...there is one shot showing his control device which is an interesting twist on the manual input:

So he seems to have a display that shows where the board is and where the board SHOULD be for stable flight. He has a slider lever that he can move up and down and chase the target. The slider switch should technically constitute a separate and isolate-able device from the data feedback system...and the input is manual. That's an interesting solution to the ruleset.

https://www.facebook.com/americascup/videos/1791831947509897/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 04:47 AM

Well is that what it's come down to?

Not just the sailing, but really foil control?

Seems pretty stupid to me that they don't just let it be an 'open' format based on a box rule.

What I'd like to see is a max/min weight, max sail area, max foil area, and max hull length, then let the designers figure out what's fastest.

Brings up another issue, how do the A cats (and any other full foiling class) measure/handicap each other?

Do they restrict max sail area and foil area, min wt and max beam? Or just measure foils and sail area and minimum wt?

It seems to me, once the boat is up on the foils, all that matters is sail area (horse power) and foil lift/control. As we just saw, keeping the boat up on the foils, going fast, for the entire race is most critical.

Our 'Old School' idea of max hull length is no longer valid if you are going to spend the entire race up on the foils.

But still the physics is the same; Thrust (sail area) plus Lift (foil surface) must overcome Weight and Drag.

So, do we need a new measurement formula that measures Thrust+Lift vs Weight+Drag?

Can a Moth race head to head against a full foiling A Cat, if their L/D numbers match up?

That's what I'm wondering about.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 08:30 AM

Great vid! thanks
Originally Posted by Jake
OK, so back to NZ control systems...the rear cyclist does have some sort of detailed controls and Outteridge suggests that he is indeed controlling the flight of the system. Having heard that before, I had wondered how he could possibly accomplish that with his head down...there is one shot showing his control device which is an interesting twist on the manual input:

So he seems to have a display that shows where the board is and where the board SHOULD be for stable flight. He has a slider lever that he can move up and down and chase the target. The slider switch should technically constitute a separate and isolate-able device from the data feedback system...and the input is manual. That's an interesting solution to the ruleset.

https://www.facebook.com/americascup/videos/1791831947509897/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Well is that what it's come down to?

Not just the sailing, but really foil control?

Seems pretty stupid to me that they don't just let it be an 'open' format based on a box rule.

What I'd like to see is a max/min weight, max sail area, max foil area, and max hull length, then let the designers figure out what's fastest.

Brings up another issue, how do the A cats (and any other full foiling class) measure/handicap each other?

Do they restrict max sail area and foil area, min wt and max beam? Or just measure foils and sail area and minimum wt?

It seems to me, once the boat is up on the foils, all that matters is sail area (horse power) and foil lift/control. As we just saw, keeping the boat up on the foils, going fast, for the entire race is most critical.

Our 'Old School' idea of max hull length is no longer valid if you are going to spend the entire race up on the foils.

But still the physics is the same; Thrust (sail area) plus Lift (foil surface) must overcome Weight and Drag.

So, do we need a new measurement formula that measures Thrust+Lift vs Weight+Drag?

Can a Moth race head to head against a full foiling A Cat, if their L/D numbers match up?

That's what I'm wondering about.


In the end, it's really about cost isn't it? Or at least, the PERCEPTION of cost. By going OD on a lot of the boat elements, conceivably an entry level team could spend less on getting into the event. By having more of the design open to development, that's more money and time to spend on developing the boat, more need to have multiple boats, and more need to have large crews to sail and man them all. The OD wrinkle was added to try and get the costs down so more competitors would sign up.

A-cats have a pretty basic set of design rules. It literally fits on one sheet of paper with the exception of the interpretations. They're available here: http://www.a-cat.org/sites/default/files/ISAF%20A%20CAT%20rules%202010_0_0.pdf

Rule #8 was added in order to limit foiling and it specifies a minimum "tip distance" for the daggerboards in a down position from the centerline of the boat (to limit the horizontal section of the foil) and that the boards must be inserted from the top of the deck. It does not limit the dimension of the board in any way other than those two parameters. If you build a board that's too thick or too long, you eat a drag penalty. Two short or too narrow and you don't get enough side bite or lift.

The rule works, mostly, but I think the guys figured out work-arounds faster than imagined. I would argue that the rules now making foiling difficult, but not impossible, but still pretty impractical for the common person sailing in the normal conditions. They've essentially straddle the fence with the rule and perhaps it was the right call. A-cat participation isn't terrible but practically none of the foiling guys show up to our lake regattas anymore (the conditions are not very likely to suit them) and I would argue that more than before choose to avoid events based on the forecast conditions. On the other hand, a full on foiling rule set would have made an entire foiling switch for the class and probably caused a lot of a-cat sailors to cut bait. Or a tighter rule making foiling all but impossible might have driven guys with money and time to other classes where they could foil. All decisions would carry some sort of damage to the class and I think all options were not great but that the class choose the better path.

At any rate, my point is that the a-cat class has a very short and very simple rule set - and it works. However, we also don't have billionaires in the ranks and the equipment war has been kept somewhat to a minimum just by cost and the free resources of the people that currently participate. You will spend a good deal of money to live at the pointy end of the fleet but you can also have a good result with an older non-foiling boat if the conditions are reasonably mild. Personally, I love sailing the boat...it's incredibly responsive and easy to handle/maneuver. I got back into A-cat even though everyone else is foiling just because it's a great way to spend an afternoon on the water.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 01:43 PM

What were the AC 'box rules' going into this regatta?

Seems they were allowed to change their foils, it was mentioned several times in that last race that Oracle had 'added some tip length' to their light air foils.

Was there a restriction on max foil size?

Still, I thought the last event (2013 in SFO) was much more exciting with more wind and more high speed sailing, (45kts vs 22 in Bermuda) with more lead changes, etc. and the tide in/out of the bay made picking the right side of the course so much more important as well.

This light air regatta in Bermuda about put me to sleep on most races. I wonder exactly where the Kiwi's will hold the next AC regatta.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I have much respect for and congratulations to ETNZ, they were clearly the better boat/team, but I still wish the course had been upwind/downwind rather than starting off with a blast reach. It just made it so dull to watch, not at all as exciting as the last cup in San Fran.


Um, didn't they have reaching starts in SF???

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Added to which, instead of looking for that US talent, they'd probably look for ways to speed up citizenship applications


They can use the H2-B program like the tech guys, or the H2-A program for hotel housekeepers? sick

Originally Posted by Jake
.but I'm not convinced that we would necessarily be down and out if we had to draw largely from US talent resources. There would certainly be some long term needs to be addressed


Yes, if the money is there, USA can develop a huge amount of talent. Knowing little of the details, I am under the impression that an aspiring sailor here in the US has to spend more time and effort fundraising than on any other aspect of their development.

Originally Posted by Jake
I do hope they don't move too far from this format so we can get another cup cycle within two years. If the go back to the drawing board, it would probably be at least three years before we have another event.


I'd posit if they keep multihulls in some sort of box rule format, then they can continue with the youth AC series which might make sense as it gives sailing in general a track to pursue (Olympics, AC series, etc). Switching platforms too dramatically (say, back to OD monohulls) may cost more time in figuring out the best "track" to put potential sailors on.

If indeed we go back to non-foiling craft, will the marketplace still continue to develop this technology? I liked the concept of that foiling cat with the automatic controls (even the "oh sh$t" button they described in the video). The swiss-army monohulls look quite odd, but once those folks get a taste of foiling, what's stopping them from seeing the benefit of foiling cats...?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo


Our 'Old School' idea of max hull length is no longer valid if you are going to spend the entire race up on the foils.

But still the physics is the same; Thrust (sail area) plus Lift (foil surface) must overcome Weight and Drag.

So, do we need a new measurement formula that measures Thrust+Lift vs Weight+Drag?


Maybe we should look more toward how they "handicap" various aircraft against each other?

Or how do Moths compare against each other? How is that box rule set up?


My only issue with a box rule is that it may not keep boat performance close enough to challenge the sailors abilities... It could turn out like the 33rd (?) AC with the cat vs. tri blowout.. That WAS like watching paint dry. The last two iterations were much more interesting since boats were closer in performance to each other.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 02:42 PM

I think this iteration did make substantial gains in the media presentation:

- races were held to a particular elapsed time, which makes for better scheduling
- good use of drones and on-board cameras. I'm sure the helicopter shots were expensive, but necessary
- digital overlay of distance to mark, laylines, tracks, wingwash, etc did add to the "show", especially for those not fully versed in match sailing rules or tactics
- generally reliable video streaming
- better vignettes on the technology, teams, and training
- Commercials (at least for semi-finals and finals) didn't walk all over important race developments.
- The venue was gorgeous, but they could have spent less time taking video of the fans. I opine that sailing is generally not a (fixed position) spectator sport. I think I saw more of the race via streaming than those fans in the bleachers. What I DID miss, however, was the in-person interaction with the team bases, and the up close sense of the boats during docking.

Putting Draper, Cayard, and Outteridge on the mike was a plus, too.

The lighter air venue probably helped with the spectator fleet in that I don't personally like being anchored in 25+ kts just to watch a sailing race.



SO, how do you take these improvements and make it marketable?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
What were the AC 'box rules' going into this regatta?

Seems they were allowed to change their foils, it was mentioned several times in that last race that Oracle had 'added some tip length' to their light air foils.

Was there a restriction on max foil size?

Still, I thought the last event (2013 in SFO) was much more exciting with more wind and more high speed sailing, (45kts vs 22 in Bermuda) with more lead changes, etc. and the tide in/out of the bay made picking the right side of the course so much more important as well.

This light air regatta in Bermuda about put me to sleep on most races. I wonder exactly where the Kiwi's will hold the next AC regatta.


The AC box rule was a one design wing (Sam mentioned earlier that this was just the leading edge/mast portion and that the flaps were open to individual design). I do know that the controls inside the wing were customizable. The hulls and beam shells were one design but you could customize the cockpits, fairings, and controls. The daggerboard foils were COMPLETELY open to development (they could be as long as desired) but teams could only build a limited number of foils - which INCLUDED models designated specifically for destruction testing. The foil itself by use and count was defined by a percentage of the original foil which is why they came up with the removable tip sections to be able to modify the foil to narrow down the wind range selection. You could really be up the creek if you significantly damaged a daggerboard and there was a bit of a challenge and some mouthing off back and forth about that when TNZ broke one during training in New Zealand.

I think the OD leading edge mast section was a stroke of brilliance because it prevented the teams from building them just strong enough to withstand sailing forces - You'll note that TNZ's mast didn't break when they capsized which is important to the safety of an overturned boat.

Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 03:27 PM

As to further developments of the design of these AC50s, why bother with the cranking crew? Is it just nostalgia that a large crew is needed? If they allow the battery powered computer sh!t to help with foils and the wing why not dump the "grinders/cyclists" and put in a hydraulic pump (electric, gas, solar, cold fusion)? Then we'd be racing with only two or maybe three real sailors, not Olympic bikers and steroid guys swapped out each race.

the AC J-class needed 16 crew.
The AC72 cats used 11 crew.
The AC50 boats used 6.

The IMOCA 60s get it done with ONE sailor. Don't you still call this sailing if doesn't use a huge crew or uses powered controls?


Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 03:37 PM

The entire wing was one design, as were the jibs. The controls for the wing were open development. The foils (daggerboards and rudders) were open but had to meet measurement formulas.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
As to further developments of the design of these AC50s, why bother with the cranking crew? Is it just nostalgia that a large crew is needed? If they allow the battery powered computer sh!t to help with foils and the wing why not dump the "grinders/cyclists" and put in a hydraulic pump (electric, gas, solar, cold fusion)? Then we'd be racing with only two or maybe three real sailors, not Olympic bikers and steroid guys swapped out each race.

the AC J-class needed 16 crew.
The AC72 cats used 11 crew.
The AC50 boats used 6.

The IMOCA 60s get it done with ONE sailor. Don't you still call this sailing if doesn't use a huge crew or uses powered controls?



AC33 did just that and everybody bitched. AC35 was similar (grunt replaced generator) so I agree with you. And as for the battery powered computer sh!t to help with foils and the wing, there is no way NZ's boat would sail without the computer.

The AC45 was all about sailing. Everybody was busy pulling strings to sail the boat. Watching the yutes was refreshing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
What I DID miss, however, was the in-person interaction with the team bases, and the up close sense of the boats during docking.


BT Sports did a great job on this, usually the hour before scheduled race. NBC . . . not so.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 04:56 PM

At the risk of knowing this will likely have the same type of reactions as the nationality debate...

I think having grinding or pedaling stations just to run hydraulics is a complete joke. The boats should be manually controlled. I don't care if you call me old-fashioned, but the event should be about testing sailing skills, which includes moving sails (grinding stations are supposed to turn winches, not pumps, on a sailboat). Having computers tell you where to put the sails, and machines to put them there when an operator pushes a button, just isn't in the spirit of a sailing competition.

I know that a large portion of the event is pushing design boundaries, and maybe they can't make the boats foil without those things, but maybe that's not such a bad thing? Trust me, they'll figure it out eventually.

Mike
Posted By: David Parker

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 06:12 PM

I was trying to think what might be an acceptable level of manual power to drive the boat. I find this more acceptable than the nose-to-a$$ cyclists. Others of you might might not...

Who's old enough to remember the Magic Christian engine room scene? grin

NSFW
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
At the risk of knowing this will likely have the same type of reactions as the nationality debate...

I think having grinding or pedaling stations just to run hydraulics is a complete joke. The boats should be manually controlled. I don't care if you call me old-fashioned, but the event should be about testing sailing skills, which includes moving sails (grinding stations are supposed to turn winches, not pumps, on a sailboat). Having computers tell you where to put the sails, and machines to put them there when an operator pushes a button, just isn't in the spirit of a sailing competition.

Mike


On the computer thing, you'll have to define that term... Tacticians and skippers have been using various implements (even back to quadrants, speed logs, telltales, and sextants) to gauge performance and determine all sorts of variables (COG, VMG, AWA, etc). So are we going back to the stone age here, or only back as far as (insert some tech era here)?

And should we step all the way back to "human power" only, as in dropping any force multipliers such as winches? So we're back to blocks and belaying pins?

If the winches were controlled via mechanical linkage vs. hydraulics, would that be acceptable?

Conversely, if future designs went full "fly by wire", and the grinders were actually cranking generators for electrical power, would that be okay?

What's the difference between "kissy-face/onion breath" grinder and the "butt-to-nose" cyclors? Do the current grinders need some awesome sailing knack, or can they just be deck apes?

I liked the biker gang concept because they can use their hands for things other than cranking. I would have figured a recumbent bike setup to be more efficient, though.... but it might be hard to switch tacks from a seated position.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
What I DID miss, however, was the in-person interaction with the team bases, and the up close sense of the boats during docking.


BT Sports did a great job on this, usually the hour before scheduled race. NBC . . . not so.


FYI
I relayed that link on Beachcats - someone just said they had a virus try and attack from that link.

i personally had no issues

"My anti virus lit up during the post race coverage and stopped some kind of embed. I don't have the details because it crashed Avast. It might have been WannaCry. I was unable to log into anything. It took some serious doing to recover."
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/27/17 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
At the risk of knowing this will likely have the same type of reactions as the nationality debate...

I think having grinding or pedaling stations just to run hydraulics is a complete joke. The boats should be manually controlled. I don't care if you call me old-fashioned, but the event should be about testing sailing skills, which includes moving sails (grinding stations are supposed to turn winches, not pumps, on a sailboat). Having computers tell you where to put the sails, and machines to put them there when an operator pushes a button, just isn't in the spirit of a sailing competition.

I know that a large portion of the event is pushing design boundaries, and maybe they can't make the boats foil without those things, but maybe that's not such a bad thing? Trust me, they'll figure it out eventually.

Mike




I agree - it takes too much of the "human element" out of it

I would rather they all race the youth boats
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 02:07 AM

Jay, you make some good observations, and technology needs to evolve, but there definitely comes a point when it just doesn't seem like it's about the sailors anymore.

How many of you listened to the final presser? When Ashby was talking about the future, and being happy to be at this point in history, I was wondering if I might have been reading into that too much (as a sign that we might be heading back in the other direction). Grant Dalton made some very telling points about the direction this is likely to head (safety on the open ocean, etc.), and it looks like I probably wasn't being paranoid.

I'd say the chances of seeing foiling again are probably slightly less that 50%, just based on what I heard in that presser. But like all things America's Cup, who knows?

Mike
Posted By: garda

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by David Parker
As to further developments of the design of these AC50s, why bother with the cranking crew? Is it just nostalgia that a large crew is needed? If they allow the battery powered computer sh!t to help with foils and the wing why not dump the "grinders/cyclists" and put in a hydraulic pump (electric, gas, solar, cold fusion)? Then we'd be racing with only two or maybe three real sailors, not Olympic bikers and steroid guys swapped out each race.

the AC J-class needed 16 crew.
The AC72 cats used 11 crew.
The AC50 boats used 6.

The IMOCA 60s get it done with ONE sailor. Don't you still call this sailing if doesn't use a huge crew or uses powered controls?



For that matter, why bother with any crew? It's silly to have a human tactician on a boat when each team could just have drones hovering all over the course. The drones could transmit windspeed and direction information to a remote computer that would then use VPPs and routing and aero programmes to work out the sail trim and steering and transmit those commands to servos and hydraulic pumps on the boat. You could also use radar controls for ride height. You wouldn't need sailors at all.

In fact we're dramatically limiting all-round speed by our luddite definition of what sailing is. We accept that sailing is driven by particles interacting with a sail, right? So why not accept that photons count just as much as air molecules? That would allow for solar panels to replace sails, so boats could go straight upwind and downwind and race even when there's no wind. :-)

The new SolarCup50s could be used to develop solar technology and remote control that could be used for other sports. Imagine how much more fun the Tour de France this weekend would be if each team had just one riderless solar-powered bicycle instead of a bunch of domestiques cranking around the Continent.
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 01:06 PM

Nice contrast Garda! This is a good way to define where you are - take it to the extreme and see how it looks from there.

There is certainly something about the hydraulic systems that disconnects the sailors from direct motion on the boats that bothers me. I have had some hesitation in accepting it and the general concept has been a little hard to sell to non-sailor engineers that I work with. I have mixed feelings about it, honestly....I started to say that I didn't think that they could control these boats without it - but the AC40(42?) seemed to do just fine...I would support eliminating the hydraulics for direct mechanical control.

That said, the level of computer control on the boats is on the cusp of getting out of hand too and I definitely do not want to see the level of involvement increase.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Nice contrast Garda! This is a good way to define where you are - take it to the extreme and see how it looks from there.

That said, the level of computer control on the boats is on the cusp of getting out of hand too and I definitely do not want to see the level of involvement increase.


After watching the video yesterday that you posted with NZ using a joystick to keep his foil "in-line" with a computer displaying the optimal position, while on a bike, feeding the onboard hydrolics ... yea not exactly "sailing"

However - this event is a big boy, big buck event - not really designed for the spectators - they can do what they want, but my interest decreases with all this tech
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
There is certainly something about the hydraulic systems that disconnects the sailors from direct motion on the boats that bothers me. .


But wait, aren't canting keels hydraulic? And how about some of the rudder control systems?

I suspect we're all pontificating about where we want the technology to stop... Should we go back to square rigs and hemp rope, or all the way forward to the solarCup?

Should track/running events go back to dirt roads and no starting blocks (a la "Chariots of Fire")? Or keep the rubber track and other enhancements?

The best sailors can adapt to any technology, platform, etc. and put it to best use. Whether it's using a wet finger held upright or a "follow the dot" screen.

The AC is a big to-do about a trophy. It's not really a cutting edge design competition (perhaps it should?). As pointed out in SA, not all of the technology displayed in past AC matches was truly beyond what may have already existed in sailing (even C-class has been using foils for years)..

If the AC series goal is to make this event marketable, then they have to do something outlandish to draw eyeballs (foiling in this case). If they want lots of competition, they have to make it cost-effective (box-rule or even OD).


Maybe the DOG should angle more toward a design competition rather than a glorified match race. Set up the venue, dates, course (W/L or otherwise) and event (Fleet/Match, series/races) and let them show up with whatever. Exclude any non-human sourced energy (or even stored energy if you so desire)

It's already a billionaire's game... The wining design would obviously have some potential revenue from sale of the technology.... probably easier and more quantifiable than marketing revenue.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
How many of you listened to the final presser? When Ashby was talking about the future, and being happy to be at this point in history, I was wondering if I might have been reading into that too much (as a sign that we might be heading back in the other direction). Grant Dalton made some very telling points about the direction this is likely to head (safety on the open ocean, etc.), and it looks like I probably wasn't being paranoid.


Did anyone else watch this and come away with similar observations?

Also, Dalton started talking about connecting the AC to other major events (such as the VOR). Does anyone have any clue how they intend to pull that off?

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by brucat

Did anyone else watch this and come away with similar observations?

Also, Dalton started talking about connecting the AC to other major events (such as the VOR). Does anyone have any clue how they intend to pull that off?

Mike


I didn't get any kind of impression but if you ask how Dalts is going to pull something off the answer is usually:

"Terribly, with a heaping dose of self-righteousness and smug defensiveness"
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by brucat
How many of you listened to the final presser? When Ashby was talking about the future, and being happy to be at this point in history, I was wondering if I might have been reading into that too much (as a sign that we might be heading back in the other direction). Grant Dalton made some very telling points about the direction this is likely to head (safety on the open ocean, etc.), and it looks like I probably wasn't being paranoid.


Did anyone else watch this and come away with similar observations?

Also, Dalton started talking about connecting the AC to other major events (such as the VOR). Does anyone have any clue how they intend to pull that off?

Mike


I have not viewed that presser yet but intend to do so soon.

Dalton tying into other major events like the VOR? I suspect that would be to have a sailing 'palooza with the VOR boats arriving around the time that an AC qualifier or world-series similar event would be taking place during their scheduled lay-days and before and/or during their re-launching. Pack it up, ship it to the next venue, and repeat.
Gives more for people to see and more exposure for sponsors. That said, it's hard enough for these guys to come to terms with regards to venue and all of the intimate details - would be tricky to pull off with organizers of the townships AND another event but not impossible.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 08:34 PM

Hard to say what he's thinking, but if he's envisioning some sort of Grand Prix, that could be interesting.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Hard to say what he's thinking, but if he's envisioning some sort of Grand Prix, that could be interesting.

Mike


Isn't that exactly what the ACWS was?
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/28/17 10:33 PM

No, my goofball thinking means your team enters each of the events. I'm sure it will never work, it would be like combining F1, Indy Car and NASCAR racing into​ one overall series.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 03:44 PM

but would they get some sort of "group discount" on the event venues?

I would imagine that space for all the team bases would be at a premium, but imagine the overwhelming presence to the locality if it were indeed "sailapalooza" Like Newport? Plymouth? Someplace windy in China? Of course France & AUS, since they're sailing fanatics

Throw in a boat show and holy crap think of the attendance....
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
but would they get some sort of "group discount" on the event venues?

I would imagine that space for all the team bases would be at a premium, but imagine the overwhelming presence to the locality if it were indeed "sailapalooza" Like Newport? Plymouth? Someplace windy in China? Of course France & AUS, since they're sailing fanatics

Throw in a boat show and holy crap think of the attendance....


Generally, the venue pays the event to be there either through direct monies and/or construction and/or waved permits/fees, security, staffing, etc.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Generally, the venue pays the event to be there either through direct monies and/or construction and/or waved permits/fees, security, staffing, etc.


SA suggested bermuda got the shaft: (as did San Fran if i recall)

loser vuitton


All sporting competitions have losers, but the America’s Cup has more than most. For the Bermuda America’s Cup, we’re not sure yet just who the biggest loser is, and while it will take some time (and some numbers) to figure out just whose butt is bleeding the most, we’ve got our ideas: Is it Russell Coutts, who lost his first-ever America’s Cup after winning 6 of them as either CEO or Skipper, while picking up a reputation as one of the worst event administrators in the history of the Cup?

Or perhaps it’s Bermuda, where a funereal pall has descended on an island that was promised so much by Russel and his minions and is now left with nothing but a huge bill, terrible TV ratings, a giant new events center in a country that doesn’t have enough inhabitants to attract big events, and a July election that will likely see the AC-friendly government out on its butt. Is it Franck Cammas, who has all but promised that his sponsors will not spend the money to go to New Zealand? Or is it Jimmy Spithill, who was not just beaten around the course, but beaten at his own game – the starting box, and the press conference – by a kid who was sailing on the Youth team just four years ago?

Actually, the biggest loser might just be the folks at Louis Vuitton, and as you can see in this photo from the final awards ceremony, the new holders of America’s Cup don’t like their overpriced bags at all. That’s tens of thousands of dollars of ugly-butt Louis Vuitton “prize” duffels being launched into the crowd by ETNZ seconds after receiving them from some functionary, and with Prada now the Challenger of Record, it’s safe to say that the next America’s Cup will be the first in a very long time where Louis Vuitton ain’t on the event sponsor list, the guest list, or any other list. Good news for tennis, golf, and motor racing though – give LV a call folks – they’ll have some spare sponsorship money laying around now!

Photo courtesy of Richard Hodder/Emirates Team New Zealand
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 05:52 PM

Well..that IS Sailing Anarchy. They tend to hate any hint of success that's not their own or that they can't tag along with. The America's Cup was snubbing them for a while (not giving them a press pass) so they've had a negative bend on all things America's Cup for a while. Clean was pretty brutal to Spithill the couple of questions I heard him ask. I would take their reporting with a grain of salt and parse out the facts for myself. Who knows if chucking the LV bag into the crowd was meant to be offensive? American Football players chuck their gear into the crowd at the end of games all the time.

As was the case with San Francisco, there were two distinct camps (and still are) - those who thought the event brought a boon of income to the area (who have some numbers to prove it) and those who thought the event cost the area dealer (who also have some numbers to prove it). Bermuda is not a huge place and it's EXPENSIVE to live there. I ship products there quite often and the shipping costs for a small box are rarely less than $80 and usually around $180. Bermuda did spend money for the event but I honestly think they got even more exposure than San Francisco did. There wasn't a hotel room to be found on the Island leading up to and during the event. They have put a pin on the map for Bermuda Sailing and I would expect that to turn into more events and more stops for races.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Well..that IS Sailing Anarchy. They tend to hate any hint of success that's not their own or that they can't tag along with. The America's Cup was snubbing them for a while (not giving them a press pass) so they've had a negative bend on all things America's Cup for a while. Clean was pretty brutal to Spithill the couple of questions I heard him ask. I would take their reporting with a grain of salt and parse out the facts for myself. Who knows if chucking the LV bag into the crowd was meant to be offensive? American Football players chuck their gear into the crowd at the end of games all the time.

As was the case with San Francisco, there were two distinct camps (and still are) - those who thought the event brought a boon of income to the area (who have some numbers to prove it) and those who thought the event cost the area dealer (who also have some numbers to prove it). Bermuda is not a huge place and it's EXPENSIVE to live there. I ship products there quite often and the shipping costs for a small box are rarely less than $80 and usually around $180. Bermuda did spend money for the event but I honestly think they got even more exposure than San Francisco did. There wasn't a hotel room to be found on the Island leading up to and during the event. They have put a pin on the map for Bermuda Sailing and I would expect that to turn into more events and more stops for races.


Ditto what Jake says about SA.

I know what my economic input into the SF community was due to the 2013 cup, and it wasn't insignificant. My wife wanted to go to Bermuda dearly for the cup finals but we couldn't find a hotel room for less than $1000/night and truth be told, the spectator area they had setup was not very impressive.

She's already giddy about going to New Zealand for the next cup. I'm groaning thinking about the blood clots in my legs on the flight over there.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 08:30 PM

"Well it is Sailing Anarchy"


Once again... the core question... Does Clean add anything to the conversation?

I like heterodox points of view.... so I like reading his perspective... He can ask some good questions.

Should he and SA been denied a press pass
No way.... I find it hard to believe that oracle would have denied press credentials. but who knows.

Now... should any cash have gone SA's way to cover the event.... No... That is the thing about independent journalism.... you have to pay your own way.

(That is not the same as denying him credentials.)

Should he been on a press boat on the water? Not his style... but he and SA should have the same opportunity as any other organization.

I often think Clean and SA want to be press agents with great stipends... and not reporters for some e publication. nice work if you can get it.... but it's very hard to imagine Clean fitting into the corporate marketing program tho.

Interesting to contrast Clean's role with Rick White's role covering the Worrell/Tybee distance races. I have NO IDEA what the financing was... so... You you read them for entertainment purposes
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin

She's already giddy about going to New Zealand for the next cup. I'm groaning thinking about the blood clots in my legs on the flight over there.

LOL
then stretch out and take a boat
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/29/17 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Well..that IS Sailing Anarchy.

yup - just thought somewhere in there was at least a thread of perspective
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/30/17 12:19 AM

I was there at Bermuda for the quarterfinal races and I was in San Fran for the same races. They were both great experiences and the set-up in Bermuda was really cool even w/o being in the stands. We could watch the whole pre-race and race on two very large screens and then run about 100' over to the sea wall to watch the finish directly very nearby. I went via cruise ship and we watched the last 1/4 final race from the stern of the boat on deck 10 - a great view! For just $2K per person for 7 nights with room and board (very good board) it was a great way to visit Bermuda and watch the races.
In San Fran you could see more parts of the course from shore but not during one race - it stretched miles along the shore so you had to scout out a viewing area and stay with it during any given race or you would miss too much. We tried three different places (AC Village, the yacht club (which had bleachers out front at the first turning mark-very exciting) and a couple places mid course along the shore. The village was larger but no more useful to the spectators than in Bermuda. All of the businesses we visited were VERY happy with the AC. They had several options for the land made for the AC so I don't know how they will lose any money over that part. The press the island got had to be worth millions as well. The biggest surprise was the slap-your-face good rum cake we brought home!
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/30/17 11:11 AM

I agree that SA should not be denied a press pass. They are press. It was the ACM, technically, not Oracle that was holding back on them. I'm just stating that they often offer a different bend on the stories that may or may not be grounded in firm reality. Sometimes they're more grounded than others, sometimes they're really out there just to stir the pot, and other times they can be teetering on the edge of irresponsible. As with any news, keep an eye out for the actual facts before accepting the interpretation as reality.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/30/17 02:04 PM

I had a friend from middle school who was in bermuda on a cruise ship a week or so before the LV series started - he is not into sailing at all but said it was insanely imazing to see these boats upclose and the "flying through the air" was wild.

I was on a wedding cruise there (with a few dozen of my friends) - it was great in bermuda (hadn't been there since i was 10 or so) and i am sure it was a fantastic venue

Glad you got to enjoy it


Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
I was there at Bermuda for the quarterfinal races and I was in San Fran for the same races. They were both great experiences and the set-up in Bermuda was really cool even w/o being in the stands. We could watch the whole pre-race and race on two very large screens and then run about 100' over to the sea wall to watch the finish directly very nearby. I went via cruise ship and we watched the last 1/4 final race from the stern of the boat on deck 10 - a great view! For just $2K per person for 7 nights with room and board (very good board) it was a great way to visit Bermuda and watch the races.
In San Fran you could see more parts of the course from shore but not during one race - it stretched miles along the shore so you had to scout out a viewing area and stay with it during any given race or you would miss too much. We tried three different places (AC Village, the yacht club (which had bleachers out front at the first turning mark-very exciting) and a couple places mid course along the shore. The village was larger but no more useful to the spectators than in Bermuda. All of the businesses we visited were VERY happy with the AC. They had several options for the land made for the AC so I don't know how they will lose any money over that part. The press the island got had to be worth millions as well. The biggest surprise was the slap-your-face good rum cake we brought home!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/30/17 02:21 PM

I suspect the real money (spent and possibly earned) would be with the multimedia coverage.. They did a pretty good job with the video (minus the commentary) and I'd pay a few bucks to watch all the next iteration of the AC if it's on high-performance multis

I think they do something of this sort (or tried) with NASCAR races, where you could pay a small fee and be able to include in-car transmissions (radio and telemetry) along with the streaming video..

With as much real time data as they were collecting, I'd love to be able to switch on those attributes while watching (like the VMG and AWA numbers)
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 06/30/17 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I suspect the real money (spent and possibly earned) would be with the multimedia coverage.. They did a pretty good job with the video (minus the commentary) and I'd pay a few bucks to watch all the next iteration of the AC if it's on high-performance multis

I think they do something of this sort (or tried) with NASCAR races, where you could pay a small fee and be able to include in-car transmissions (radio and telemetry) along with the streaming video..

With as much real time data as they were collecting, I'd love to be able to switch on those attributes while watching (like the VMG and AWA numbers)


Jay, you could dial into either of two cameras onboard each boat complete with dedicated on-boat audio to watch any race through the America's Cup phone app...no fee.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/03/17 01:04 PM

Did not know that, but might have been cool.... But looking at the side of Ashby's head while he played pac-man in the hull may have gotten a little old...

But watching the leach position of the wing foil may have been neat

I was thinking more of the data that they occasionally displayed on each boat's performance...
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/05/17 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


They can use the H2-B program like the tech guys, or the H2-A program for hotel housekeepers? sick


H1B is what they use for tech guys; H2B are the housekeepers; H2A are the agriculture guys. These guys would definitely be H1B unless they also plan on picking artichokes for Larry.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/17 12:35 AM

ANNOUNCEMENT ON THE 36th AMERICA'S CUP
"the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members."
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/17 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
ANNOUNCEMENT ON THE 36th AMERICA'S CUP
"the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members."


And thus guaranteeing for practical purposes, that the cup stays in NZL. Also going to really put a damper on the salaries for the sailors.

As for the "constructed in country" part... so much for keeping costs in check.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/17 06:38 PM

I'm sure they will find all sorts of loopholes in both the crew member and the constructed in country requirements.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/19/17 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
I'm sure they will find all sorts of loopholes in both the crew member and the constructed in country requirements.


Sadly, they always have, and always will. If nothing else, they need a rule to keep Ashby. Of course, they can handle that with non-winged monohulls.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/17 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Redtwin
I'm sure they will find all sorts of loopholes in both the crew member and the constructed in country requirements.


Sadly, they always have, and always will. If nothing else, they need a rule to keep Ashby. Of course, they can handle that with non-winged monohulls.

Mike


They didn't say ALL crew needed to be of that nation...they said there will be "a nationality requirement" which may mean that 50% of the crew must come from the represented nation. just sayin'
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/17 12:46 AM

Agreed. Like I said, they'll either find a way to keep Ashby, or choose a boat where he's not perceived to be such a critical asset.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/17 03:22 AM

This is hilarious, coming from a team named EMIRATES team New Zealand!

How many Emirates born sailors are on their team?




Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
Originally Posted by P.M.
ANNOUNCEMENT ON THE 36th AMERICA'S CUP
"the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members."


And thus guaranteeing for practical purposes, that the cup stays in NZL. Also going to really put a damper on the salaries for the sailors.

As for the "constructed in country" part... so much for keeping costs in check.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/17 12:42 PM

Well, that's just a sponsor name, but to their credit, Emirates has stuck with NZL for many, many cycles, so my hat's off to them.

Although, it is weird. Imagine American airlines sponsoring a team from anywhere else, something like "American Team Morocco?"

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 35th America's Cup - 07/20/17 02:46 PM

It will be interesting to see if Emirates continues to sponsor them, if the next AC is raced in NZ, vs in the UAE.

Emirates airlines is heavily subsidized by the UAE government which is a direct violation of the US Open Skies agreement.

They are losing a lot of money right now and have even had to cut some routes to the US, due to the lower price of oil.
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