NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events

I am just copying this post over from the Old Forum. Any comments?

Posted by Eric from 128.223.208.121 on January 26, 19104 at 00:17:27:

The IHCA has banned all X-class boats at Hobie events. Open class multi hull racing is not allowed at Hobie class sanctioned regattas according to the IHCA constitution. A letter has been issued ordering this, written from IHCA to the NAHCA which will likely be posted on this site within the next few days. The NAHCA and Hobie divisions have no choice in whether they will allow other boats at their events. The NAHCA has acknowledged the mandate and indicated they will absolutely comply with the rules. If the NAHCA wants to allow open class racing they must petition IHCA and ISAF to receive approval but at this time they will fully enforce the IHCA rules.

I really hope that is not true.

Tracie

IT's OFFICIAL! Here are four letters/press releases we just received from NAHCA:

RELEASE NO. 1:
From NAHCA Chairman
There will be a number of announcements coming from the Hobie class in the coming months. Since many of these will be of general interest to the sailing community we would like to send them to you as press releases. The following information can be released immediately.

There are several changes on the horizon that we are particularly excited about. First, we are changing our name. One of our focuses in the coming year is promotion of the Hobie class - and changing our name is the starting point. Currently, the name NAHCA is not one that is easily identifiable in the sailing community. So in the coming weeks you will begin to see the name "Hobie Class Association" being used. We believe this shortened version is more easily understood and more identifiable with the Hobie class.

In 2004 we will also be offering a Hobie class sponsored insurance package designed to provide general liability coverage to regattas and other events. The policy is an umbrella policy we have very recently negotiated and will offer basic liability coverage to many of our events at a nominal fee. While this policy may not be appropriate for all, it will be most useful for the "paper fleets" running events on public property. Detailed information on this policy will be available through the Division Chairman in the near future.

The attached letters discuss a situation with our current practices of allowing non-Hobie boats to participate at Hobie class sanctioned events. To better understand the situation at hand, it is important to start with IHCA letter.doc followed by HCC Letter.doc and lastly Rich Letter.doc.

More announcements about other exciting changes will be forthcoming.

Sincerely,
Rich McVeigh
Hobie Class Association Chair

* * * * *

RELEASE NO. 2:
From Hobie Cat Company
October 24, 2003

Mr. Rich McVeigh
Chairman
North American Hobie Class Association
14813 Fireside Drive
Silver Spring, MD 20905-5502

Re: Open Class Racing

Dear Rich,

For ten years I have followed with interest the decision to allow open class boats at Hobie regattas and the effect of that decision on the North American Hobie Class Association. When the decision was made, I was—like others at the time—reluctant to allow other multihulls to attend Hobie events for fear that it would negatively affect the Hobie Class Association over time. The argument then was that one-design racing, which made the Hobie racing class so successful, was not attracting enough sailors in many areas to be financially viable. One answer was to allow a single “open class” start at Hobie regattas. This single start was meant to allow not only open class boats, but Hobie boats that did not have adequate numbers for a single start. The goal was to allow more sailors to participate and to create the income required to run a regatta.

Unfortunately, looking back at how this decision has affected the Hobie Class, my feeling is that we made the wrong decision ten years ago—especially considering some recent developments associated with open class boats.

When this topic first arose, it was a difficult decision for many people to make; it was also difficult to manage. I have witnessed the effects of this decision on various regions of North America. There are regions that have been relatively unaffected and they remain nearly 100% Hobie participation. There are regions that are mildly affected that have only a few open class boats participating in regattas. Then there are regions where Hobie regattas are no longer Hobie regattas, as the majority of boats are other brands. In some cases, the Fleet Officers and/or Division Officers are not even Hobie owners. As the manufacturer of Hobie Catamarans and a major supporting partner of NAHCA, we have reached a point where we must re-evaluate our current support of the Class in light of these recent developments.

I am sure you understand that Hobie Cat Company has its foundation in the manufacturing and sale of Hobie Cats. To remain in business, we must base our decisions on those premises.

It seems obvious to me that for the continued health of the Hobie Class in North America, there is a far greater chance of this happening if NAHCA, Hobie Cat Company and our Hobie dealers are all successful and thriving. When Hobie Cat Company is financially healthy, we are better equipped to support NAHCA, and you have witnessed this over the past several years. Our support and willingness to help have certainly increased, and I trust that this has been beneficial to the organization. However, there have also been indications in the past few months that make us question our continued support of NAHCA and regattas; i.e., the decision to allow open class boats and the effect that decision has had on the Hobie Class.

As you know, we provide financial assistance to NAHCA for both day-to-day expenses and for special purposes as they arise. In addition, we donate items to Hobie regattas when the organizers request giveaways or raffle items. We do this because we believe that promoting regattas and the Hobie Class helps to maintain active Hobie sailors. Many of our Hobie dealerships also provide another level of support to NAHCA events. In some cases our dealers actually run events themselves; in others, they provide financial assistance or manpower.

On several occasions this year we were informed that at some regattas that had open class boats sailing, the organizers were promoting the purchase of boats other than Hobie Cats. We have to look at this very seriously, as we are not in business to promote our competitors and we do not want to support regattas or organizations that do not support us in return.

When the majority of boats at a Hobie Cat regatta are not Hobie Cats or when other brands of boats are promoted, we need to reconsider our support of these events. In the past, we were assured that if we supported a Hobie regatta with giveaways or raffle items, they would end up in the hands of Hobie sailors. This is no longer the case. As I mentioned, it is our intention to support Hobie sailors and Hobie events.

I understand that you have received a directive from the International Hobie Class Association to discontinue allowing open class boats at Hobie events. I am certain that this is a difficult decision for you, and it will likely have far-reaching ramifications. However, I want to express that Hobie Cat Company is in full agreement with this change in policy for NAHCA, and we are prepared to help where needed. We look forward to rebuilding the Hobie Class Association and the challenges that will present. In the long run, we believe that this course is appropriate for the long-term health of the North American Hobie Class Association and Hobie racing.

Yours respectfully,


Doug Skidmore
President
Hobie Cat Company

* * * * *

RELEASE NO. 3:
From International Hobie Class Association
October 15, 2003

Rich McVeigh, Chairman, North American Hobie Class Association
14813 Fireside Drive
Silver Springs, MD 20905-5542
USA

Dear Rich McVeigh,

It has come to our attention that the NAHCA is allowing open class multi-hull racing at regattas that are designated for Hobies. Please be advised that this practice is in complete violation of the goals, purposes and intent of the IHCA as defined in the IHCA constitution and rules book. As you know, the NAHCA is a region of the IHCA and is bound by the international association’s constitution, bylaws, rules and ISAF contract. Should the NAHCA wish to allow open class racing, it would have to make a submission to the IHCA requesting a change of the constitution and rules. Until such a submission is approved by both IHCA and ISAF, the NAHCA is hereby given notice that open class multi-hull racing at Hobie regattas must cease.

The current situation, as it has been presented to the IHCA executive, arose about a decade ago out of an annual general meeting of the NAHCA where members proposed a motion to allow open class racing at Hobie regattas. The NAHCA’s chairman at the time assured the membership that approval of open class racing had been obtained from the IHCA. A review of IHCA records has shown that no such approval was ever granted, and in fact was never even requested. Had the approval been requested, the IHCA would most likely have denied it for many reasons, not the least of which is we are partially funded and strongly supported by the Hobie Cat manufacturers. In the absence at the AGM of accurate information regarding IHCA approval, it became obvious that the motion would carry, so some of the more traditional class members insisted on a set of criteria, which were adopted, including that no open class member could become an officer of a fleet, division or region.

Since this time some Hobie regattas have included open class racing, mostly in Michigan, Florida and a few other places on the east coast. The practice has diminished Hobie classes throughout the east, particularly in Divisions 8 and 10. In both divisions Hobie fleets were infiltrated by open class members who eventually became officers contrary to the NAHCA’s criteria described above--and took over the administration of these fleets. In some cases they dissolved the Hobie fleets to create new multi-hull associations composed of open class fleets. There is a strong indication that this practice is starting to spread to other divisions as well, and in the interests of our members we feel strongly about stopping it.

We fully understand that after 10 years of allowing open class racing at Hobie regattas it may be extremely difficult for the NAHCA to implement this directive to stop the practice. Recognizing the far reaching and immediate negative results the implementation will no doubt have for your organization, we request that you develop a plan for meeting this directive and submit it to the IHCA Executive Director by December 31, 2003.

The NAHCA phase out plan must include several IHCA imposed conditions, specifically;
The plan must terminate by December 31, 2004.
• Open Class boats permitted to participate under a phase out program will be restricted only to boats that have previously participated in a Hobie event prior to August 1, 2003 i.e Only Skipper and boat combinations that were raced in Hobie events prior to August 1, 2003 will be permitted to race in any 2004 Hobie event.
• No new Open Class boats will be permitted to participate.
• Skippers of all Open Class boats eligible and desiring to participate in this phase out program will be required to obtain IHCA or Regional Annual Membership for 2004.

This has been a very difficult decision, but we are bound by the constitution, rules and the ISAF contract. There is no other choice. It is now a matter of when and how you implement this directive. Thank you in advance for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Paul Ulibarri, IHCA President
Lori Mohney, IHCA Vice President
Brian Phipps, IHCA Vice President
David Brookes, IHCA Vice President and Executive Director

* * * * *

RELEASE NO. 4:
From NAHCA
A change has come.


Upon reading the accompanying letters, it is quite apparent that a situation has developed with the IHCA and the Hobie Cat Co. regarding the NAHCA’s practice of permitting the participation of boats other than Hobie Cats at Hobie Cat regattas. This presents a difficult situation for the NAHCA and for me as chairman.

As a regional body of the International Hobie Class Association (IHCA), NAHCA must comply with the IHCA class rules and constitution. Additionally we receive substantial financial support from the Hobie Cat Co., without which we would be hard pressed to continue providing the services to which our members have become accustomed. With these facts in mind, it is not a question of whether we will comply with the wishes of the IHCA but how we will go about doing so.

The NAHCA officers are fully aware of the different situations around the region regarding the open class issue. This subject has been debated for some time. The class officers and I have held some long discussions with the IHCA and the Hobie Cat Co. on this issue and we know this is going to be painful for some regions, and yet a non-issue for others.

For some time I have heard arguments regarding fleets in which more than half of the fleet members, including the commodore, do not own Hobie Cat boats and the majority of the boats at their regattas are not Hobie Cat boats. For these groups the solution is apparent. These fleets will need to reconsider whether their organization is a Hobie Cat fleet in name only or a catamaran club. Similarly these fleets will need to reconsider how they will be running future Hobie Cat regattas.

In the dinghy world there are class-sponsored events and there are invitational events. Using the Laser class as an example. There are Laser events, which are sanctioned by the class association. At these events you will see Lasers and only Lasers competing. In comparison many yacht clubs offer dinghy regattas, at these regattas Lasers may be one of several dinghy classes invited to participate. I believe this is the direction we will now be moving as well.

The Hobie class will continue to sanction regattas throughout the North American region through the division and fleet structure. To be a sanctioned regatta the host will have to comply with IHCA class rules and constitution. Specifically, non-Hobie Cat boats will not be able to participate in Hobie class sanctioned regattas. Organizations that run events, which include non-Hobie Cat boats, simply will not be running a Hobie class sanctioned event. Additionally these organizations will no longer be able to utilize the Hobie Cat name, the NAHCA name or Hobie Cat trademark in their Notice of Race or event advertising. In short, these events will no longer be considered "Hobie Cat” regattas. Organizations that elect to organize an open invitation regatta rather than a “Hobie Cat” regatta are no longer required to follow the Hobie class standardized racing program and all we can say is that we wish you well. Alternatively if an organization chooses to offer a “Hobie Cat” regatta, the Hobie class and the Hobie Cat Co. will continue to do all we can in offering our support to you and the event. We have some successful and popular programs available and we are continuing to pursue other avenues of event support, such as our new insurance program. Our class has been successful by offering a standardized one-design racing program and we will continue this in the future.

Is there a happy medium? Can a Hobie fleet continue to exist within a larger organization? Sure and there are plenty of examples of how this can work. In many cases Hobie fleets exist within a yacht club or other organization. This is entirely appropriate and does not need to change at all.

We know this will be a painful decision for some. We fully understand that the Hobie class will lose some events and likely some members over this issue. While we will be a slightly smaller organization we will be an organization more focused on our mission of promoting Hobie Cat sailing. This is a mission we are going to purse with vigor to foster the sport of Hobie Cat sailing. In recent years, the Hobie class has become more mainstream with respect to the rest of yachting world. We are becoming more involved with all the national sailing authorities in North America as well as ISAF. The level of professional race management offered at our premier events is second to none. We recently had a professionally run championship event with 70 boats. How many other sailing classes can offer that?

The IHCA has agreed to give us one year to make the necessary changes to be in compliance with the class rules. The IHCA agreed to this as we have been in this situation for some time and it is unreasonable to expect it to go away overnight. For 2004 we will continue to operate in a manner similar to past years but under the following IHCA directive (as stated in the accompanying letter from the IHCA):
• Open Class boats permitted to participate under a phase out program will be restricted only to boats that have previously participated in a Hobie event prior to August 1, 2003 i.e Only Skipper and boat combinations that were raced in Hobie events prior to
August 1, 2003 will be permitted to race in any 2004 Hobie event.
• No new Open Class boats will be permitted to participate.
• Skippers of all Open Class boats eligible and desiring to participate in this phase out program will be required to obtain IHCA or Regional Annual Membership for 2004.

The IHCA and the Hobie Cat Co. are expecting us to be in full compliance with regard to this issue after January 1, 2005.

If you are thinking of switching to a Hobie Cat, please also know that in 2004 we will make every effort to make loaner or charter boats available. If you are interested in sailing at a regatta please contact your Division Chair and dealer in advance.

Sincerely,


Hobie Class Assoc. Chair

The local fleets will still do what they do. The only regattas that I know of in the US that are NAHCA sanctioned are Midwinter’s and Nationals and both of these events don't allow X-boats now.

In the southeastern US I don't think we have any Hobie only regatta's with the exception of Hobie Midwinter’s. The NAHCA has become a non-entity as far as my sailing goes.

Dave

Tracie

You and Dennis should go the the preformance mid winters instead of the Hobie mid winters. You will have a bigger class of F18's to sail against.

What is Hobie going to do about F18 they need to get with the new program. With Hobie not making the 14,17,18 it does not leave you very many boats to race against in the south east 1 or 2 Fx one's, I have seen 2 fox's in the last 2 years, may be 10 or so tigers 4 or 5 16's at most regattas.
That sounds real fun to me. I am sorry I even own a Hobie when the company acts like this. Can we even vote?

You mean, *GASP* I can't win the H16 nationals in a tornado!!??!?!?

INJUSTICE, INCREDULITY, AND OTHER WORDS THAT START WITH IN- !!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! I WANT HEADS TO ROLL!!!!

Hi David,

I am so very disappointed.

I spent a lot of time gathering input from the Tiger sailors on that very subject (F18 racing) to give to the NAHCA...I have no idea what they concluded from it but will try to find out.

While I am not defending Hobie Co. actions, I can understand that they are business. Pepsi is not going to financial support an event where Coke products and merchandise are being sold and consumed, so why would Hobie. I get that part. I might not completely agree with the way it has come about, but I can see their point.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out on a local level.

In any event, it looks like I’ll have a lot more time to devote to the F18 class.

Tracie

Tracie

I am very disapointed too. As for the money and door prizes Hobie can keep it if that is the problem I just throw or give away that stuff any way (beach balls, key chains,and other stupid stuff)

I have not even been to a Hobie Mid Winters. Why would I drive 12 hours each way to sail in a Hobie only event with maybe 5 Tigers when I could go F18 at Preformance Midwinters and sail with twice as many boats. It just does not make any sense.

I knew this would eventually happen. It doesn't suprise me in the least that Hobie is pushing non-Hobie boats out of events. Hobie has a history of poor judgement.

Why this is bad:

1. Division race support. Weekend club racing will not be effected, but without a doubt the Division points events will long term. Many of these races are supported by non-Hobie sailors. The help and support of all sailors are what make some of these events go off so well. Now, telling them "We would love your help, but you can't race" is pretty bad.

2. The "Hobie way of Live"... yea right. This is something that was drilled into me by a couple books I read when I was 14 just getting into sailing. The all inclusiveness of the beach, sand, sun and sailing community. Well, it is offically dead. Hobie is attempting to make things exclusive. They are trying to drive a wedge between Hobies and other boats.

3. Greed. Not suprising. They are the 400lb gorilla.

I like the idea of everyone involved in something. The only way that happens is not to put restrictions on things. Welcome everyone. Be a gracious host. Don't worry about the little things. I am dreading this discussion at the fleet meeting already.

Dave,

Yes, the local fleets can do what they want, but they can not use the Hobie name, emblem, etc. in any of their NOR's or regatta flyers. It was suggested that noncompliant fleets can not include events in Division regatta books or schedules. They also can not take advantage of the regatta insurance program. Divisions that do not comply will not be allowed to send individuals to North American Championships (according to IHCA President). The theme is that Big Brother is now watching, and they will prosecute any violations.

Ken

"Divisions that do not comply will not be allowed to send individuals to North American Championships (according to IHCA President)."

Ken, can you clarify that. It seems like you were there for this meeting?

Tracie

Lets say I didn't own a Hobie, but have always been a member of the local fleet. So now, why should I pay my fleet dues? Any race we run has to comply with the Hobie Company or we are to go it alone so to speak. This will also drive out the "good" racers who are looking to get to the next level.

It is amazing...

Tracie, I don't understand that, either. Right now ANYBODY can go to a Hobie Continental Championship. You don't have to even own a Hobie. You can pay your dues and charter a boat and race in the event. It has been many years since you had to accumulate points to be "sent" to the Continentals by your Division.

As you can see from the press releases Division 8 (my former division) and Division 10 were identified as the bad apples that spoiled the bushel.

We have been going it alone for years and if anything participation has improved. As for the PRO's that the IHCA have access to, there are a lot of high quality professionals outside the Hobie organization that can run on hell of a race.

If I were still sailing my H20 I would have a real issue with Hobie trying to tell me who I can and cannot spend my free time with.

Dave

Now that Hobie is declaring no boats allowed at their regattas other than Hobies, could this be the time to utilize NAMSA?

NAMSA is already set up to conduct operations with incorporation, bylaws, and officers. Why would it not be a natural transition for all classes to unite into NAMSA and make that the North American infrastructure?

They are already is a position to sanction events and offer liabillity insurance.

Your thoughts?
Rick

Tracie,

No, I was not at the meeting last week in Atlanta. We did have our Division meeting yesterday, and we had the pleasure of the attendance of the IHCA president (Paul Ulibarri). Basicly, noncompliance is not an option. What we would need is for HCA (formerly NAHCA) to ask IHCA for the option of X-class. With enough pressure (votes?), that may happen someday, but for now...
Fleets that allow X-class can not use Division books to advertise (IHCA interpretation), or advertise with any reference to Hobie or the registered trademarks. They will not be allowed to take part in the yet to come (soon?) insurance program. Divisions that look the other way as far as the fleets go will be in violation, and one option is to withold the right of registration for any individual at North Americans (formerly Continentals).
This trickles all the way down to fleet fun sails that include X-class. We were told that we can not list these events in the regatta schedule.

Ken

The Hobie "open rule" adopted 10 years ago was an attempt to increase attendance, which had dropped dramatically. With the reversal of this rule, I would predict "the Hobie Way of Life" will disappear all together.

I recall a Hobie 16 regatta from around 1976 that had approx 300 entrants and covered about 3 miles of beach front. This was at Sarasota, maybe Lido Key, not really sure.

The last Hobie points regatta I attended had fewer than 25 entrants, not all of which were Hobies.

Folk, this sport is withering, if not dieing. Whatever Hobies hopes are they are in vain. This is a small sport that will only be practiced by the few who genuinely love it. That, of course, will never die.

Rick,

Liability insurance? This is possibly the major issue for the small fleets that want to put on an event. The carrot that Hobie is offering (along withn the Hobie Way Of Life, of course) is the insurance program. If NAMSA can also offer the coverage at a reasonable cost....

Mary,

They are working on some new points system to be put into place at some future date. National ranking system, details to be in the next Hobie Class News (magazine formerly known as NAHCA News).

Whats up with all these name changes?

Ken

Thank you for responding, Ken.

So is it your understanding that, let's say in Division 9, someone holds a Hobie points regatta and they allow a couple open class boats to participate. The Chairman of Division 9 is there and knows it is going on and allows it. In the meantime, the NAHCA or the IHCA gets wind of it, (maybe from another sailor who is upset with the RC or just upset that there is an open boat participating), they can in turn deny any sailor who resides in the Div 9 area from attending a Nationals?

I wonder how many Div Chairs and officers are willing to participate in such activites. I wonder how many Chairs/officers even KNOW they are to become the watch dogs of the IHCA. I'm not doing it.

Tracie

Ken,
I always thought their biggest mistake was dropping the points system to qualify for Nationals (Continentals). That change in policy made it possible for anybody to go to a Hobie Nationals Continentals), without ever having attended a single Hobie regatta during the year and without even owning a Hobie. To me, the desire to qualify for Nationals was the biggest incentive to own a Hobie and race in the points regattas. I'm glad they are thinking about reinstating that system -- but is it too late?

Wow. Wow...wow.

I will have more intelligent comments later because this has me stupified at the moment (that and that everything is covered with 2 inches of ice here in northern South Carolina). I agree with Tracie in that it will be interesting to see how this plays out on the local level but if it is forced as threatened, through leverage of insurance, points championship, support, etc. it will be the death of NAHCA (or the Hobie Class Association - whatever). I am somewhat inspired that the decision appears to have come from Hobie 'the company' using financial leverage instead of from NAHCA folks themselves. Perhaps NAHCA can keep their name and let the "Hobie Cat Association" race only Hobies once the ramifications of this edict are realized. Does Hobie have any idea what the actual local racing scene looks like? Why don't they realize that the mistake "made 10 years ago" to support X-boats actually aided the survival of NAHCA, it's strong class racing, and kept the Hobie logo out front this long!? They're committing suicide if they actually enforce this thing and I can't believe this silliness has actually come up again! Where does that leave Spring Fever (a sanctioned Hobie regatta) and the countless other Hobie regattas? I'll tell you...It leaves them searching for another blanket support organization.

It is ridiculous that it's come to this, and we never intended to compete with NAHCA, but the great news is that NAMSA is still kicking and is ready to support anybody with more than one hull who has a desire for sailing, racing, insurance, saving your launching facility, or any other service that an organization 'by the sailors, for the sailors' can provide.

Tracie,

Denying attendance at North American Championships is one of the possible penalties that HCA is considering. There was talk of legal action against anyone using the Hobie trademark name, logo, etc. in any of the regatta advertising. So if those X-class were allowed to sail, LEGAL action could be taken against the fleet and Division (note the 1 year phase in period for those boat-skipper combinations sailed prior to Sept, 2003).

Ken

Wouter,

It was stated by the IHCA president that other mfg. cat's are not allowed at Hobie regattas anywhere else in the world.
This X-class thing only exists in the United States.
Is this your experience in Europe? How about other areas? Australia? Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S., as other areas already comply, or is there a world wide effect here?

Ken

As you know Rick 99% of the regattas in the southeast do not involve the HCA (NAHCA) and we get along just fine without them. We have been finding our own sources for insureance for years. If NAMSA can button up the insureance thing then we are in great shape, I'd even say we are in better shape than the HCA.

It's as if the HCA is acting like OPEC but, we have already switched to alternative fuel sources.

See you soon,
Dave

This is not the first time that Hobie Cat Co has declared war on the rest of the catamaran racing community. They tried to destroy CRAM & other open fleet clubs in the early 80's. I think it only made us stronger. We're still here & division 10 has been reduced to Wednesday night races on Austin Lake. Unfortunately, Hobie Cat Co has been successful in keeping Hobies from racing with us. We could be a much stronger organizations if the Hobie racers in our area would turn their backs on Hobie Cat Co & come sail with us. We have always been & continue to be open to all beach catamarans from Dingo's to RC27's.

USSailing has an insurance program which CRAM has used for several years. They call it the Golden Anchor program. It provides discounted insurance rates for sailing clubs. I expect that clubs could redirect their NAHCA dues to Golden Anchor insurance and come out even. At the very least Big Brother would not be watching their every move.

TIL,
That is interesting about CRAM. Back in the 1980's when we were racing a Hobie 18 in Division 10, I know Division 10 sailors went to several CRAM regattas every year, and we had the CRAM events listed on our Division schedule.

But just recently I asked a Hobie sailor up there why they do not join CRAM now, and he told me Hobie sailors get negative vibes from the CRAM sailors, like disparaging comments about Hobies, and pressure to get a different kind of boat.

Mary
Do you really believe that?
I checked out CRAM & Hobie Flt. 276
I was told by Flt 276, If I didn't have a Hobie I couldn't even day sail with them.
But Stan Hall over at CRAM didn't seem to care what I sailed. Just bring the family out for a great weekend.
Ted

Ted,
No, of course, I don't believe it. We know lots of CRAM people personally. I'm just telling you what one person said and what he is saying other people said. We haven't been up there for a while, and sometimes things change. I was just fishing for a CRAM response to that accusation -- and I got it. Thanks.

Interesting.

I found it hard to write something that didn't sound harsh. Sorry it if this is heavy-handed.

I find it laughable that open class racing is the reason for the demise of Hobie Fleets in America! It sure couldn't be products that have not been kept up to date. It sure couldn't be that Hobie USA is apparently incapable of developing or updating anything that is not roto-molded.

I'm guessing that the only thing that has kept catamaran racing/sailing Fleets alive in the US are the open fleets.

And sure, if it's Hobie one-design then obviously only Hobies sail in that class. But given the sorry state of the sport, the "buy our boat or you can't play with the Fleets" model seems kind of out of date and stupid. And yes, I appreciate Hobie is in business to sell boats. But as participants what is important to us is that we enjoy our purchases, feel good about what we bought, and not have the regret of being a pawn in a company's "master plan".

How about helping to increase the number of sailors in the sport, then displaying some leadership in product development and quality that shows well in comparison to other products and gaining sales that way? You know, good old market competition. Nah, if we simply ban the other boats at regattas and strong-arm Fleets (can't even do fun sails????) then people will have to buy ours!

And, of course, if you happen to sail an older Hobie that does not fit anymore in the Hobie Way Of Life, you must now buy a NEW(er) Hobie to race or go to the other non-Hobie scum Fleets.

In our area, the only real interest in racing Hobie products seem to be the 20, and so far that's from a non-NAHCA perspective. People have been looking more at the model provided by the New England 6.0 guys. I don't know of anybody itching to buy a 16. Tigers might be an option, but the 20 footers and A-Cats are starting to rule, and in the 20 foot range it's 6.0s and Inter-20s and then H-20s. The A-Cats are starting to win over some dinghy converts. I can't imagine having the growth we've had if we told 'em all to buy new Hobies. Nobody's that interested in them. Why is that? Open class racing? Don't think so...

So, what if there was a Hobie Regatta and nobody cared? NAMSA could step in here. Provide a championship structure for the classes, so somebody could still be a Hobie-16 class champion without ever having raced in a HCA event. They could stand on the podium next to the Hobie-18 champ and Inter-20 champ.... Clubs that are facing problems because of mixed boats could just not be a Hobie-sanctioned Fleet anymore, recognize the class within their Fleet and NAMSA, send results to NAMSA for a national ranking.

Notice my tag, all Hobies and a keelboat. Yet, now more than ever, I feel even less inclined to ever to go Hobie sanctioned Hobie One Design racing.

But, this much is also true - if you race a Hobie, you will always be welcome at my Open-Class, Non-Denominational, X-Boat-lovin', tainted by non-Hobie boats catamaran sailing Fleet. We like having more sailors. We don't belittle folks for what they sail. If the boats are worth it, people will buy them.

I wish Hobie luck, the catamaran market has been theirs to lose. They seem more bent on the latter sometimes. To some this might just sound like a desparate bid to blame somebody else.

Ken,

Now before I get flamed (By others), I volunteered and worked on the Hobie nationals 2001 race committee so I'm NOT a Hobie hater and I've seen things up close from the water as a counterstart vessel/rescue boat.

Apart from the Hobie nationals we simply don't have Hobie events in (greater) NL (UK, NL, Belgium). Neither in Australia if I'm informed correctly. The racing scene here is almost exclusively handled by an national organisation for all cats (like NAMSA) and the clubs do their own thing without accepting much meddling from any builder or even some high minded class organisation. At clubs in the Netherlands they will be laughted out the door. In May we'll have a 1-up cup here in NL with singlehanded Dart 18's, I-17's , FX-one's, A-cats and a few F16's. Of the 25 to 30 boats competing ONLY 3 are FX-one. There are NO hobie 17's. This gives some idea of the weight hobie puts in the scale.

Another telling example; 2003 Dutch Hobie Tiger nationals attracted 7 boats ! Of which Gerard loos is a paid crew with a supplied boat. The (yeary) event REM race 2003 at my own club attracted double the amount of Tiger crews. The locations are spaced 15 miles apart.

Pretty much all Tiger crews in my (larger) area will FAIL the tiger one-design rule. They have after market sails or different blocks or have have a non hobie corp tiller or even some non-hobie shackles on their boats. maybe they used non-hobie approved gelcoat to touch up a repair ? Most are not seriously interested in the Tiger class; only in the F18 class AND open class racing like Texel.

That X-classes don't exist in Europe or Aus is technically true since all significant regatts ARE open class (even in France and Germany) and I can't name even 1 Hobie point regatta for my area of North West Europe. We are one big X-class just like the round texel. Start together, race together, finish together and split out the results to class and a single overall open class.

This X-class thing is a US thing as we don't have a comparable scene in the EU and AUS. So your statement "This X-class thing only exists in the United States." seems like a fair statement to me.

>>Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S., as other areas already comply, or is there a world wide effect here?

The hobie classes would be dead within the year if they tried something like this in my area. Tiger class would be dead within the week. They would ALL choose F18 over Tiger class. And like I said earlier Hobie class would make itself redicioulus by such a stunt.

The hobie 16 class is the ONLY hobie class overhere that means ANYTHING at this time and even that is going. All other classes are non-existant. H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20 are so dead that they aren't even allowed to start on their own Hobie nationals since 2001. Fox and FX-one have to start with Tigers as they are even fewer in number. The H14 guys have split off and hold their own yearly championship away from the class. Australia is very comparable to NL, UK as well.

I think pockets are holding in Germany and maybe France but the important events like Carnac Eurocat, Round Isle of White, Archipelo raid. Texel and such are all open class events. I don't think anybody will cry at all over missing one or two relatively unknown Hobie point regatta's.

Now I don't know the IHCA intentions or plans with regard to Europe or Australia so I can't comment on :

"Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S."

However, there is absolutely NO NEED to know for me or my friends either as IHCA can talk till they're blue in the face. After all is said and done the core of the matter will be that it is just that; "talk"

I just checked the NFB (our include all organisation) calender for 2004 and there are only point regatta's for the H16 and ALL of these are part of a larger OPEN CLASS regatta, where the points are split from the OPEN class overall results. None are organised by the Hobie class organisation. The only exception is the Hobie nationals 2004; but we know how many boats show up there.

They'll be insane to try a similar stunt overhere.

Wouter

Hobie has a bigger decision to make than prohibiting open class sailing at Hobie sanctioned regattas.

That decision is:

Design new boats that are on the top end of the market, simple to rig and low on maintenance, capable and durable enough to sail in coastal waters with 20+ winds ranges and sizable chop, and price them aggressively.

The past boats were fine boats but it is time to develop new products because of new knowledge (even this is getting old) and building material.

They need a new

16 footer - present Hobie 16 needs to be replaced with a stiff full volume symetrical hulled boat, boards maybe maybe not, better rudder system, new mast, crossbars, and hardware.

18 Hobie Tiger is a good boat that does not need replacing (could be lighten up but class rules restrict such things) . This boat needs to be manufactured in the US or Mexico. With the manufacturing in europe, currency x-rates are effecting prices and the buyer (nor Hobie) cannot afford 20% price swings.

20 footer - Miracle needs to be replaced. This was an attemp at copying the P19 but the boat should be replaced and a new 20 footer developed.

Fox needs to be discontinued. Their is no choice between an I-20 and a Fox and the market has spoken.

A new Hobie 21 needs to be introduced for the big boys who want powerful boats. A market exists for a boat that can handle the 500 plus pound sailing teams that love cat sailing. These guys love all that sail area and extra wide beam with wings. Hobie just needs to lighten up the monster by 125 pounds, design a hull that does not leak, and increase hull volume. The boat would sell if it existed.

Other Hobie's I do not have first hand experience with.

I challenge Hobie or Performance to really design the next generation 20 footer with spinnaker and put a list price on it for $12,500 and I will buy it.

Actually, Performance Catamarans has brought out new models or updated old designs but they have room for improvement also.

In our Division book, the Open Class PAYS for an ad for a distance race. Goodbye to that. Another Hobie fleet gets a free ad for an open class distance race; goodbye to that ad too. Seems pointless and painful to me.

I 100% agree with you Hobie boat assessment. I think here in the midwest we have the last pocket of Hobie 20 sailors around. People really like their H20s. Interestingly enough, the H16 races have grown a little the past two years.

I have never been a fan of the Hobie 16, so when I hear someone else say "new 16 footer", my pom-poms are in the air. I am a huge fan of the Getaway and Nacra 5.2's. I could see a version of the Getaway with a taller mast being popular to race. There are some people that are just married to H16's though.

I think racing is going to the Formula classes and to long distance races. If Hobie is going to create new boats for racing, they will have to design them under those regulations. That is something Hobie seems to have a problem with right now. They have the "fun" factor down pat with the Wave, Bravo and Getaway.

Price is always an issue. Most of us like the cats because of the price vs performance aspect. We know Hobie is making a crap load on all of their products. The boats are prob. their lowest margin items. Investment on return...

I suppose they could drop the Fox, H16, H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20. Before hand they better have something ready to go. They could send letters out to all fleets announcing a 2-yr phase out of H16's for a new F16 that can be Uni-rigged or sloop rigged. Maybe a buy-back program. Then maybe for-go the F-20's for now and make a new "big-boy" boat.

There's a reason why, when I tell people I sail a catamarn, they say "Ohhh! you sail a Hobie!?". It's because darn near every catamaran event in the U.S., the signs that point to it, the shirts and hats associated with it, and the articles written about it has the flying H stamped on them. They are giving up an incredible amount of market exposure by forcing the x-boats to sort out their own organization that will be inclusive of everyone (and we will).

Flounder, I also agree that the U.S. market is ripe for a particular boat to hit the market. A survey would probably give a better indication than my opinion, but my opinion is that a new F16 complient platform made in the U.S. at a reasonable price is the sweet spot. We've seen how the Tiapan 4.9 exploded and they are hard to get as are any of the other F16s. We've also seen a strong trend toward a relatively low tech formula in the F18 and it's growing stronger than anything we've seen in quite some time. I think formula is where the future lies. It's obvious that the open classes have been growing and splintering from OD racing for some time - Formula is the next step in the evolution.

Keith,

You have great points, no need to re-state them here. Hobie is making a huge mistake here, it is a great opportunity for NAMSA to take the reigns and design a system that everybody will be happy with.

Ken,

As you were priveleged to hear Paul speak, did he give any insight as to what to do when 4 17s and 4 18s show up to an event? They do not constitute a class, thus are we to send them home? I was planning on taking my FX-1 to a NAHCA event or two to show those that haven't seen one and spurn some interest in it. If there is no X-class......am I racing against myself? I guess I won't be showing up to any Div 4 events now. Did he/they indicate how on earth they plan on BUILDING NAHCA (or HCA or whatever) or are they just ignoring that?

I gotta say, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen an organization do. Most businesses, when dying, do not limit their income and exposure........that equals death. I look for NAHCA to be dead in two years max....possibly one.

I think Rick has the best idea, to have NAMSA jump in and determine what the masses want. We have NAMSA events with points leading to a qualification to the NAMSA nationals or some system like that. It would take some work, but there is now a void for a lot of sailors that should be filled. I joined NAMSA last year and will be happy to re-up my membership as opposed to NAHCA, HCA or whatever.

Kip
Boise, ID
TheMightyHobie18
FX-1

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The devil
is always in the details.

For instance: In the current preliminary Div. 4 schedule,
the Vancouver Yacht Club Waves regatta is listed as a "points" event. This would indicate that it is "sanctioned". Well, Waves (a really cool event) is open
to all sorts of boats, everything from Lasers and Opti's to big boats. If the yacht club decides to have a seperate start for other cats, does this leave the Div. 4 open to legal action from INCA? And if so, would Hobie acually take
any legal action against their own Div. or members? More likely they just take the "points" note out of the listing.
But must they also remove the listing? Are they now unable to affiliate with yacht clubs that allow other types of boats, of just other types of cats? Questions not easily answered, but must be some how addressed in some sort of official policy that has yet to be written

For us X classers, it will mean that we will have to persue other avenues. Someone wrote that Laser events are
exclusivly Laser. Wrong. At the local level they are more
than happy to split costs with other fleets. Yacht clubs are
usually more than happy to take on more boats too.

Ya know folks, I haven't laughed this hard in a while!

Insurance you say?? US Sailing.

Sounds like someone went to sleep at the wheel of their Chevy to wake up and realize everyone have been driving Chryslers for 10 years!!!

IMHO,
Bob LOL

Time to move into the Inter-20.....

I think it’s a great time for the Hobie class.
I don’t know of any other sailing class that has gone through so much to help their competition. It’s surprising to me that it took the Hobie Class 10 years to find their way after taking a wrong turn.
If you read through the letters you will see that the Hobie class doesn’t wish any ill will towards X class sailors or their classes. At the same time the Hobie class has decided that they are going to focus on their own needs.
The Hobie class knows full well that they will be a smaller organization. But what’s the point of being big just for the sake of being big if you are not working towards your mission?
It wasn’t that long ago that I attended my first Hobie regatta with my “new to me” Hobie 16. One of the Mid-West hot shots was there that I had met previously at an A cat event. “You got one of those things” he said. Yes Mary it is true. I will say this guy is a good guy but he just doesn’t get it. It’s not about having the fastest boat on the water. Always wanting the newest fastest thing was what killed windsurfing and it has stunted the growth of cat sailing for years. What are the biggest sailing classes in the country? They’re boats like the Lightning and the Laser. Why are they so successful? Not because they are the next high tech thing on the market. They thrive because they have the best class organization and they run FUN events. Hobie has one of the best sailing class associations in the country and some of the most FUN events. They made a wrong turn when they decided to give the milk away for free. They have decided to take a new path. It will hurt at first there is no doubt but recovery is never a one step process.
To the X classers out there I say good luck. I wish you well, and when you have 70 boats at the North Americans and over 100 at your World Championships, I’ll be right there with you.
Bob Merrick

Rick,
Time to send out the 2004 dues notice for NAMSA. Please include a sticker.

GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!GO NAMSA!

ok Rick,
Its time to get going with NAMSA! Tell us what we have to do...

Rhodysail(Bob Merrick) is right on with his assessment.New classes come and go.you will always have those people jumping from one class to another to keep up with technology,but in the end most of these classes will die out.What is the sense of having the fastest boat, if you have no one to race against.Strong classes like the Hobie 16 & Laser are classics.They have and will continue to endure the test of time.The reason is simple.Great boats simple design emphases on TALENT NOT TECHNOLOGY which is a point current ISAF president Paul Henderson is trying to drive home.In fact in one of his latest statements he gave a vote of confidents to the hobie 16 with spi as an olympic class
Mike Madge

And that is what is so great about an all-encompassing organization that doesn't care what brand you drive.

Kip,

The way Div 4 handles less than five boats in a fleet is to race any Hobie, no mater how few. Small groups may and will be started together, but they will NOT be scored together. No times are taken. So the fleets with 1, 2, or 3 boats may start with each other, but are not racing the other class boats. Bring your FX, but you will not be racing any other Hobies.

Mark,

The answers to these questions are clearly laid out. The Waves regatta has a seperate course for the Hobies to sail on. The X-class can sail at Waves, but must be on one of the other courses. There can be no overlapping of any marks, start lines, etc. at the Waves event. Those fleets that were planning fun sails with other classes of boats (including monohull) have been taken off the schedule and will not be allowed to advertise their event in the Division publication.

Bob,

US Sailing insurance is a great program. For a club or active group, it is a no brainer. But what of the fleet that only wants to put on one event. Close to $800 for both on and off the water coverage.

Ken

Jake,
While the Taipan is a very fine boat, I have bigger explosions when I eat beans.
There are 12 members of the US Taipan Association, all 4 officers positions are still unfilled.
The Chairman of the U.S. F16HP Class was Kirt Simmons.
He last posted 8 months ago under a new name flyer_usa_185.
He has apparently switched back to the A Class, but he has the boat for sale on the A Class website.
The F16 website now lists Jennifer Lindsey as the F16 East Rep and Eric poulsen as the F16 West Rep.
The Boyer website lists 3 U.S. "Agents" The Cat House(Mark Biggers), Sailfastusa(Chip Zenke) and Sunjammers(Brad Stephens).
None of them advertise the Taipans. Only Chip Zenke claims to have a 2003 boat in stock.
Several of the first Taipan owners have already re-sold their boats.

My point is, just because it is a good boat and is popular in another country does not mean it is going to be popular in America.
What market niche does the Taipan 4.9(f16) fill?

The only thing low-tech about the F18 is the weight of the hulls, not their design.

As a Div 10 racer in one of the named evil fleets I have provided a clarification to the 3rd paragraph IHCA letter:

Since this time some regattas have included open class racing, mostly in Michigan, Florida and a few other places on the east coast. The practice has allowed racing throughout the east, particularly in Divisions 8 and 10 to survive. In both divisions Hobie fleets were abandoned and sailors revived racing through open class racing. Contrary to the NAHCA’s criteria sailors took over the administration of their fleets. In some cases the new multi-hull associations composed of open class fleets are stronger than ever. There is a strong indication that this practice is starting to spread to other divisions as well, and in our self interests we feel strongly about stopping it.

Mike,
Hobie 16, Mystere 4.3, Inter 20
P.S. Hobie: I have a Hobie lifejacket still in the shrinkwrap. If you want it back, give me a call. You pay the shipping and you can have the H16 back too:-)

I find it funny you think Hobie is the only club that can muster more than 50 or so boats....The A cats have been doing that for the same amount of time.....and are growing!

Caution what you wish for...

Cheers

If it's truly talent, not technology, and stopping emphasis on the fastest boats, then why add a spinnaker to the Hobie-16? Takes away from the simple design... Seems to me there's another message there.

From what I see, one of the biggest components of the Open Class tends to be people new to the sport. They found a used boat for an affordable price and are looking to see if they like these things. They'll move up if they do. They'll move on if they don't. Most I know in this category wouldn't even give it a shot if the outlay was too high or the club too exclusive. You know, high-tech boats like Prindle-16s and 18s, Hobie-18s, NACRA 5.2s and the like.

The A cat looks like a great class, but when did they have 50 boats at a North American regatta other than the world championships?

With a 1020 views, 50 plus replies and only a few H16 supporter for one design, I think you could say, Hobie has stepped on it big time.

All we (cat sailors/club race organizer) are trying to do, is conduct races, have fun and bring new sailors to the sport (we hold Rick White sailing classes at our club and other instruction). And now we may get sued by Hobie because we are promoting the sport.

Check out our club home page, we are promoting a Hobie Points Regatta, F18 East Coast Championship (Tigers welcome), The Wave nationals and the great open "X" event the Statue of Liberty race.(http://www.fleet250.org/).

It's like where's waldo, can you find how many times we break (on our home page) the new "Hobie Way of Life" of promoting regattas?

Soooo....I'm a relative newbe, so maybe my voice doesn't count as much, but Sign me up for NAMSA!!! I started out on a Hobie 18 last year and really liked the boat, but sailing aside, I always had a bit of an issue with Hobie's heavy handed tactics. This just goes as solid proof that my concerns were well founded. For those (VERY few..) that seem to be defending Hobie's tactics, I really don't understand your "exclusionary" mindset. Competition amongst manufacturers can only be good for consumers. I also believe Formula and open class racing is the future, and is the right way to go. If a manufacturer (ANY of them..) cannot attract new buyers through quality products designed to meet the needs and desires of it's market and solid marketing to generate demand (which seems to be sadly missing with all of our manufacturers imho), then they deserve to lose out. Resorting to strongarm tactics is simply BAD business. While I will continue to welcome sailors on all cats, all I can say to Hobie, is "good riddance" because this is the beginning of the end for them (again imho). Again, my comment is directed at a manufaturer, not to those who choose to sail their products for a variety of very good reasons.

Let's see.....NAHCA/HCA - for Hobie's only....or....NAMSA - for ALL Cat Sailors. Simple choice for me...and to think there are "Hobie only" diehards out there who accuse "others" of being "exclusive"!!! Things that make yua go "Hmmmmm"!! Sounds like Hobie just did a good thing for NAMSA!!

See y'all on the race course....as long as it's NOT a HCA race course!!

Joe

Well, it looks like there will be reason to see t-shirts like I saw and wore in the early '80s: "I'd rather sail the box a NACRA came in than a Hobie Cat." Anybody else remember those? Some folks substituted their brands for NACRA in the phrase. I was thinking of trading my P-19 for a Hobie Fox too but coercion makes me run the other way. Guess the other guys are building better products and Hobie doesn't want to play any more.
I have no doubt that all you Hobie folks will be most welcome at the open regattas across the country. Three of a kind makes a fleet? There you go. Join the fun, sail what you like and keep the corporate bullies out.
This kind of policy can do no good for the industry. Big groups attract people, not the brand. Somebody mentioned that Hobie is what most people call all beach cats. Everybody calls sailboards windsurfers but how many windsurfer brand sailboards do you see these days. My parents generation called all refrigerators fridgidares and all vacuum cleaners hoovers.
Nobody new to something knows brands, just what somebody else called 'em.
'nuff said.
Salud

This has gotta be one of the most pitiful things I've ever read. It's all about greed, and I for one am ashamed of those behind it. Otherwise reasonable people, some of whom I've had the privelage to personally meet, who are driven by the bottom line. How sad.

It sort of reminds of so many long forgotten jr. high and high school cliques. You can't be part of our group, unless you're just like us.

At Bald Eagle regattas, we have always welcomed our "open class brothers and sisters" with open arms. Maybe someone with more history than me can speak as to whether or not any of them were converts. I have made some of the best friends of my life through this sport, and I'm a relative newcomer myself, as I've only been at this since 1998. I'm still not nearly the competitor I'd like to be, but no one ever turned me away when I was dead last on the most delapitated Hobie 16 that you've ever seen. How many other things have I been part of where if you didn't measure up, you were ostracized and shunned. Now some people are trying to tell us we should act like the worst of the worst from our jr and sr high school memories. Talk about pathetic!

As I sit and write this, and think of some my open class friends who I'm supposedly now supposed to shun, it leaves a sick feeling in my gut.

Our club is having its regatta in a new location this year, which we are very excited about. One of the things I am personally very excited about it is that we will once again have the opportunity to plant a seed in an area of our fine state where there was once many catamaran regattas, including several open class regattas. As Commodore of the Bald Eagle Yacht Club (seperate and distinct from Hobie Fleet 52, of which I am not speaking for), I look forward to spreading my love of this sport to another part of Minnesota. We will find a way to be welcoming to anyone with a sailboat that floats, with or without NAHCA. If they think that I for one will have anything to do with turning anyone away, they can guess again, or better yet, they can fly out here to Minnesota and do there own dirty work of being unwelcoming to an enthusiastic newcomer!

How sad that they would think for even a moment that they could ask us to turn people away on their behalf. Hobie Cat Company, I still love ya, but I'm ashamed of you, and you should be ashamed of yourself. There are other ways to increase the sales of Hobies, and to make racing a better experience. I suggest you go back to your marketing classes and figure out what those methods are.

Respectfully,


Tim D. Johnson
Commodore, Bald Eagle Yacht Club
White Bear Lake, MN

Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Last year, the closest race was 300 miles, this year it will be further. What is the point of driving that distance to sail against myself? I can sail here against a variety of cats. If I were to go and RACE against a variety of designs including other Hobies who were not fortunate enough to garner a class, I'd be happy to sail against them.......but to sail against noone........Not gonna happen.

What now happens to the increasing amount of sailors in the NW with A-cats or with your F18HT? I guess they get excluded from 60% of the cat races in the NW? That's sad. I certainly don't see that as increasing cat sailing. I know HCA isn't in this to promote cat sailing, but the more cat sailors, the more Hobie sailors. Not too many people will be interested in joining a group that has 5 boats on the line.

We here in Boise were contemplating starting a new Hobie fleet, as our numbers have been on the rise. Axe that idea, it will be a cat club, no exclusions.

If the Cascade Locks race is still portsmouth, you might see me there, otherwise, I'll stay and promote our local membership.

Kip
Boise, ID
TheMightyHobie18
FX-1

Also, in our area, CRAC supports the local Hobie Fleets by association and through promoting some of the regattas, as well as helping to run them. Checking the CRAC schedule for 2004 shows 5 or 6 races that will now be dates open in the CRAC schedule. The Hobie Fleets in question certainly cannot now risk being associated with CRAC.

Possible replacements - a F18 and an A-Cat invitational could fill two of them. With X-Class starts. Also, the new distance race proposed in Ocean City has new dates open to it.

Keep in mind that this policy seems to be coming from the IHCA down. Last time I got to spend any time with the IHCA President I left with the impression that he was less than mentally stable.

This policy is evidence that he has now come completely unhinged.

It is very sad indeed. He once did good things for the sport of sailing.

Sam,

Good to see you back in the fray! Like I said, it's an opinion...I still thing there's a market for a 16 footer than can equally be single or double handed (with chute). Don't get me wrong, I love my 20 footer but we're big boys.

Amen brother!

I'm relatively new on the Hobie racing scene (my 5th season this year... ) but i can say that i've enjoyed having the X-class sailing with us at our div regattas... our emphasis has always been with the hobie boats and 90-95% of all boats attending are hobies... each class having their own start and scoring and the x-class sailing together...
I've always felt that getting anyone sailing with other people is a boost to the 'industry' no matter what boat they own. No, the hobies are not as advanced as some of the other boats i've seen.. but when people are talking to me about buying a boat, i ask them what their plans are? racing or pleasure? if you're racing, in our fleet/div anyway.. get into a hobie, because the class is big and growing, good competition, and easily accessable parts, and good used boats can be found fairly easily. I understand the need to promote Hobie events for hobies, but not being an 'exclusive club' about it... I'm also a musician playing a particular style of music... when i have or go to parties, they may be focused on celtic music, but if we were exclusive "you play rock, you can't come", i'd missed out on some good friends and a few converts as well!!
I believe in the 'good sportmanship' that most of us share about letting our neighbours 'play' with us... and will be sorry when this new ruling takes effect...

paul

The "Hobie way of Life" is sounding more and more like a hollow phrase.

I started racing a Hobie 16 11 years ago. I have since raced 16, 18, and Tiger class in Division 4, and attended an 18 Continental. I also race in local Yacht club sponsored events, but prefer racing in the Division 4 events best, as they are the best run and organized, and were the least restrictive as regards alowing any type of boat to attend. I have enjoyed the way our division has been structured in regards to X-class boats, and would miss seeing the friends I have on the "X-Class" boats. As Paul Evenden said, Division 4 is 90-95% Hobie boats, and with the X-class on the course with us, it shows the performance differences between the different "X-Class" designs and the Hobies', but also allows one design racing.
I can understand Hobie Cats point of view, but think it might be short sighted.
I am very concerned, because the last Division 4 regatta I attended at Harrison, had most of the experienced sailors from the different fleets (16, 17, 18, 20, and Tiger) seriously discusing switching to A Class, F18, or F18HT boats.
This would make NAMSA the most attractive choice, especially if the insurance issue would be covered, meaning that one would need to have a HCA, US Sailing, and NAMSA membership to cover all the loop holes. This would deminish all of these organizations by loss of the limited number of boats, by people choosing one over the other based on the various restrictions of each organization.

I hope this doesn't erase all the good progress made last year in bringing more youth and new sailors to the Division 4 events.

People, I know there are allot of hurt feelings out there, but please keep this in perspective. This is the Hobie Class Association moving to remain as the HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION… it is a very simple concept here. The Hobie class is NOT an open multihull class association and should never have been placed in this position.

Please, no personal attacks on the IHCA (or HCA) leadership ("Was_Hobie") that is very un-cool and un-called for.

Hi Jake,
Sorry, but I can't think of any situation that would have me recommend an F16 to a friend of mine.
An F16 is not just a "16 footer than can equally be single or double handed (with chute)."
Single-handed, it is an overweight wanna-be A Class with a chute that can't go to A Class regattas.
Double-handed, it is almost as fast as an F18 and they don't want anything to do with them.
It is a hard boat to sail well and can get over powered easily and then you add a chute!
Look at the 2003 Taipan 4.9 Nationals. Robbie Daniels borrowed a boat and cleaned their clocks.

So far, the U.S. Taipan/F16 Class has shown that this single or double idea is not helping them.
It only divides them into 4 Classes instead of just two.

I am just saying that in America, the vast majority of the people who could make a Taipan/f16 work, are racing A Class, F18HT, F18, I-20, Nacra 6.0 NE, Hobie 20 and don't want a 16 foot boat.

opinions? No problem.

Facts. 20+ F16 boats in the US now growing slowly but steadily.
Robbie Daniels wold wipe the clock in any H17 fleet as well so that is not a solid argument
Interest in F16 is definately there (Seriously, not pulling your leg here)
"this single or double idea is not helping them" is actually the most cited reason for interest.

Apart from that I would like to say :"wait and see; we're still here after 3 years and we are continuing."

About that US F16 builder ? Well, that would indeed be very nice.

Wouter

As I have posted here and in other place, NAMSA had been set and in the starters box for over a year. It is incorporated, has rules/bylaws in place, allows each individual member a full vote, has officers in place, can sanction events and allow liability insurance.

NAMSA needs a lot of help and ideas to get things really rolling, as well as membership money to implement the ideas.

For starters, to join NAMSA, send $10 to:

Robert Earl Blackington, Treasurer
7131 Sand Crest View, Colorado Springs, CO 80918
Tel 719-532-1092 (w), 719-622-8333 (h), Fax 719-567-9937 (w), 719-622-0737 (h)
E-Mail: lemarindechats@aol.com (h), Robert.Blackington@schriever.af.mil (w)

You can also find out more about NAMSA by going to its website at http://www.multihullsailing.org

And to express your ideas or to assist in anyway, NAMSA's Forum is located at:
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=NAMSA

Rick

Have all the people who contact you about getting into the F16 class send an e-mail to Hans Geissler. If he'll knock 6" off the G-Cat 5.0T it would be the fist US-Manufactured F16. Not only that, but if they proved to be a competitive boat in the F16 class it would help him prove his unique hull design is still competitive.

I don't see the current G-Cat 5.0T selling itself any other way.

Agree with mmiller : Everyone should just keep their heads a little, and understand their motives, even if you don`t agree with them.
If this is a world-wide drive to attract more people to Hobie sailing, I sincerely hope it works but have my doubts.
In Cape Town, South Africa we have events run by clubs which are open to all classes, and events run by Hobie, which are also open to all classes. Classes are scored separately,there are class winners and there is a handicap winner (not always a Hobie), and it all seems to work fine. As a non-Hobie sailor, we don`t try to convince Hobie sailors to switch boats to our brand, and none of them have.(Ok, we do point out the difference in speed downwind with our chutes up, but that`s friendly rivalry.) If this changes in the future it will just reduce the number of competitors at the Hobie class events, to the point where these events will just vanish as they will no longer be financially viable, unless IHCA provides the local Hobie class with funds so that they don`t mind running regattas at a loss.
The way things are right now, attendance is on the increase at these events (thanks mostly to the open division), and this in turn is attracting a lot of Hobie sailors back to events that they may have missed for a while. Large fleets have the ability to become infectious and start to grow exponentially, while 5 boat fleets stay that way, if they`re lucky.
In the other Provinces in SA we find the Dart 18 being strong, with the Hobie class facing extinction. An interesting point is that the Dart 18 class did exactly what IHCA are trying to do - they started their own league which is open to only Dart sailors, and are being very successful. There is no hard rule as to what will or won`t work, and what works in one area might fail in another.
I hope The Hobie class representatives are reading this thread, perhaps they`ll reconsider and search for better ways to grow their support base.
IHCA needs to understand that their ideals cannot be enforced in areas where support for their product is not already strong.

Cheers
Steve
F16 Mosquito

OK....maybe I was a little off base....

As one eluded to earlier, this is their class, they can do what they want. Having said that, It is time to recognize that change is good, especially to people who did not promt it. There are several options out there for non hobie boats.

This is an ideal breeding time for the Yacht clubs to come to play (as they have in CA. parts of Texas, and the Noreast) While we are all being just 'a little' arrogant, let me further say that these clubs really are interested in boats like the A that represent a new technology, and a new breed of sailor.

NAMSA is yet another option,...folks, what I'm saying..we have all had a few days to show frustration and complain (some are cheering)...

Lets move on! I know our up-coming A fleet schedule will and can be more challenging than the existing hobie schedule. Furthermore, there are other venues and resourses out there that are virtually un-tapped by the multi-market.

Lets just remember that Change is good, and will be good for all the boats involved...

Fire away,

Michael
Former Inter...now A!

Hey Sam,
Seems like someone or something in the F16 class is really getting to you. Is it that someone can buy or even home-build a 16ft boat that is "almost as fast as an F18" that upsets you ? Or is it that if your crew doesn`t pitch up, you CAN`T take the jib off & go sailing on an equal or similar footing to your mates ? Perhaps you really think the boats are great, but are too big & heavy to sail one ?
Whatever your reasons, there`s no real need to keep on putting another class down - whatever you sail, I`m sure you enjoy it - that`s why some people sail Hobie 16`s, some sail Taipans, Some sail Tornados etc. Everyone thinks their own boat is the greatest, that`s why they chose it in the first place. I think that those who are continously putting down other boats are probably unhappy with what they sail, and are trying to convince themselves that other boats are worse than theirs, rather than believing their own boat is just great. Why call F16 a "overweight wanna-be A Class" ? Why even compare the two ? I`m sure A-class sailors choose their boat for all it`s virtues, and choose it even though they are fully aware that they can`t race with a crewmember. Others want the option of doing either, must they buy two boats ? Must a Tornado sailor also have two boats - no, he must just live with the fact that he can`t race single-handed, but he chose his boat for different reasons.
If your friend said he was looking for a boat that had a chute, could be sailed with crew, and occasionally without, and didn`t weigh 300 lbs, would you still tell him that F16 is a bad choice.

You probably would.

Cheers
Steve

I want a new one!

Dave

I would have preferred to edit my original post, but could not.

I just want to make it perfectly clear at this point, that though I am currently Commodore of the Bald Eagle Yacht Club, that I do not speak on behalf of the club. These are my personal opinions, and our club has not yet come to a consensus on how we will deal with this mandate.

Here's to hoping we can all be reasonable,

Tim D. Johnson

Matt,

You guys really screwed the pooch with this one. In the end all you will have is a national organization the represents the H16’s which is what I suspect has been your goal for the last two years. Hobie US hasn’t even made an attempt to keep up with the market and that is why x-boats have steady taken market share from the racing end of your business.

It’s a pipe dream if you think this new policy will revive Hobie sales.

It is bad enough we have to take orders from our bosses, but at least they provide us a living. To take orders from Hobie then provide you a living… NO FREAKING WAY BUDDY!

Dave

Sycho15,

I have referred some interested sailors to G-cat in the past and I think I will do so in the future as well. I don't refer all of them to G-cat. A lot of times their list of wishes is simply better reflected in another design. Mind you I have referred crews also towards the F18 class, A-cat class and even (don't tell W.F. this) the F18HT class. And the guy actually bought the HT as well.

I have mailed with Hans as well about the F16 concept and he asked for the rules and regulations so he could read-up on them. I would love to see a G-cat F16 model, but this is up to Hans. It would definately allow him to proof his "his unique hull design".

I agree that a G-cat F16 would be more attractive as a product but I'm most definately biased in this respect.

Wouter

I dont know about everyone else, but having just started racing this past season here in michigan and only have CRAM around has hurt me i feel. I sail a Hobie 16 and dont have the money to buy a new boat or a newer one. Also during this past year, Fleet 276 is being rebuilt to provide some options for racing.

From what I have read and understand, NAHCA deceided to let in other boats 10 years ago, and during that time in Michigan, I understand that Cram used to be almost all Hobie's, now it is mostly Nacras and Intra's. Very few Hobie's show up to there events, and when one does, there is no other boats for that person to race against and to learn from. Yes there might be former Hobie sailors there, but that does not help new people to learn from watching.

Being new to the Race scene, I believe that this might be a good thing to help rebuild fleets in Division 10 and everywhere else that have been decemated over the past 10 years. I actually enjoyed being able to race every week with the local fleet and learn some new things from the more experianced sailors in the group, and I beleive that all new sailors would like to have that kind of support and groups like CRAM really dont provide that kind of support.

A couple of other things that I think people may not have taken into account, is some people dont like to travel or cant afford to travel every weekend or other weekend to regattas located in different locations.
As you know, the cost of travelling to regattas can be expensive; food, hotel or camp grounds, regatta fees, fuel, and were and tear on the tow vehical and trailer.

Mark Colby
1973 Hobie 16

At this point in time I've done a unscientific survey of where the forum comments about the HCA's decision are coming from. The vast majority are coming from a minority number of sailors in the SE area of the US. The loudest voices are non Hobie sailors. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Remember, the IHCA and HCA did not make this decision quickly or lightly. It has been planned and choreographed for some time. My hat is off to Hobie for staying true to one design class racing. It's now up to the Hobie owners as to what they want to do. Actually it opens up many more choices for Hobie owners who want to race. One design, portsmouth, F18, etc. the list goes on and on. Jump on a the classic H16 or claw your way around the course on the Tiger. It's one design class racing in it's purist form. Head to head racing without corrected time. The ability of the crew to sail the boat fast not who sails the fastest boat or latest technology. Try it....you might be surprised on how fun it is.

So what.....Hobie has made a business decision to promote their boats exclusively. I can understand their motivation. After all, for them, it is a business and the idea is to make money. I know that this may affect some cat racers more than others. For me, this has little or no effect on my racing. I haven't raced in a Hobie Points Regatta since I got rid of my Hobie 16 in 1983. (I guess that Spring Fever doesn't count as a Hobie Regatta since I was on a Nacra 6.0.) That Hobie 16 was my first cat, and a great boat it was. I still would recommend it for someone getting into the sport. I have very fond memories sailing and racing that blue hulled pitch pole machine with the Tequila Sunrise sails. I wish I had a dollar for every tourist that took a picture of it. Sorry to digress, but the point is, what has Hobie really accomplished by "banning" X-Classers other than making a lot of people mad? Were X-Class boats invading Hobie Regattas and threatening to take over all racing? I really ask this question with some sincerity, because this is not an issue at my end of the bay. Back in 1980-1981, locally there was a real line drawn in the sand. There were Hobies and the rest of the beach cats. That line of division had faded in the late 80's with the dwindling of classes and participation. Strength in numbers meant combining classes. Now Hobie has not only redrawn that line, but highlighted it to boot. Again, Hobie has made a business decision to support and sell their boats, and not a decision to help promote cat sailing overall. This is a disappointment, and I am sorry to see things head in this direction.

I will be sending my check to NAMSA this week for membership, and will continue to support all cat sailing and racing in our area regattas. That includes welcoming Hobies to our open regattas. There still should be some class limited regattas. After all there is a place for specific classes' championships such as Hobie Continentals, Performance Nationals, and this September, the first ARC Nationals. But, locally run regattas are run by locals and they should determine who is invited, and not dictated by the "Mothership". The last thing I'd ever want to do is take any frustrations out on any individual owners just because one manufacturer feels threatened by another in friendly competetion.

Hope to see all cats at our Trident Series in the panahndle this year!

Just my 2 cents. See you on the water!

THE Central Gulf cat club is the Coast Catamaran Club, working
out of the Ocean Springs Yacht Club, OS, Mississippi (see at
www.osyc.com)

Operating since the 1980s, this is an open fleet club covering the
Gulf states from Texas thru north Florida, and north to Arkansas
and Tennessee, and even a couple members from the
Carolinas.

Our main objective is the Slip to Ship regatta, MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND, held for the last twenty years, which is an open fleet distance race. We also offer a newsletter (now an e-newsletter),
boat advice, and contacts. We do hold a couple of fun get
togethers, usually Labor Day, New Year's Day and early in the
year (the X-mas party, which is held anywhere from January to
February).

The database is a hundred strong, we will be able to introduce
sailors to others in their areas. That's part of our mission, which
is to promote multihull sailing and provide a meeting ground for
multihull sailors (and introduce as many people as possible to
the sport, and welcome ALL multihulls)

Only $15 to join, and you get discounts:
$5 off Slip to Ship
$5 off all OSYC races
(refunds just about all your money, that's three races: S2S, Ihop
and Shearwater)

Please contact Jay Klassen, CCC Commodore,
coastcatclub @ hotmail.com

thanks
tami
Mamadore, CCC

Matt:

You don't seem to get it! Hobie is saying we want to be distinct so we are not going to allow you to sail with us unless sail a Hobie product.

Fine, go and be a distinct and separate group, without the rest of us!

I have been a lurker on this website for quite a long time, but I finally have to speak out. I can hardly believe what I am reading. Excuse me, but you all sound like a bunch of whiney crybabies. Do you understand the concept behind one-design racing? Do you expect that any kind of dinghy should be able to show up at a Laser regatta and demand to sail in an open class? Do you expect any catamaran to be able to show up at the Tuesday night A-cat racing in Bristol, RI and demand that they have an open class? Then why would you assume it is so "whine whine unfair" that the Hobie Class is now doing the same thing? Get real. Hobie is just doing what the rest of the world is already doing. Any Yacht Club can still hold an open catamaran event. Even any group of people can get together and hold an open event -- they simply can't do it as a Hobie Fleet/Division or use Hobie logos, etc. I really don't understand the big deal here. It isn't fair to blame a manufacturer for doing what all the other boat manufacturers do, and it isn't fair to blame the sailors who happen to like one-design racing.

First, Steve in South Africa, you don't have a clue about cat sailing in America.
You just hung spins on your already successful Mosquito class and called yourself F16s.
That is not an option here.
My comments refer to the conditions, marketplace and demographics here, IN AMERICA.
I also want to reiterate that I believe that Jim Boyer has designed and built excellent boats.

"Seems like someone"
I, and many others, have been discovering and exposing wouters lies for several years now. I wouldn't trust him to tell me the correct time.
EX: On 3/21/02 wouter posted: "I'm building Taipan hulls right now" . Then on 4/16/02 he posted: "I have the plans and they are real. I'm hoping to finish my boat this summer" One month he is building hulls and the next month he gets plans.
I have saved many examples of his proving himself a liar.
"FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU, FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME"
I also know that Kirt Simmons changes boats whenever the wind shifts.
I was not at all surprised to see that he has abandoned the class that he talked so much about a short time ago.
The AMERICAN Class organization is in disarray.
Maybe the two new people will stick with it and make something happen.

"Is it that someone can buy or even home-build a 16ft boat that is "almost as fast as an F18" that upsets you?"
Earth to Steve, there are plenty of factory or home-built boats that are faster than an F18 IN AMERICA.

"Or is it that if your crew doesn`t pitch up, you CAN`T take the jib off & go sailing on an equal or similar footing to your mates?"
There are less than TWENTY f16 scattered across America.
They can't get half of them to their own National Championships.
There is no place IN AMERICA, and won't be in the near future, where an f16 can show up and have their choice of a single or double-handed class to race in.
IN AMERICA, 99% of the time a Taipan or f16 sailor will be alone, racing in the open fleet.

"Whatever your reasons, there`s no real need to keep on putting another class down"
If reality, IN AMERICA, is a putdown then too bad, change the reality.

"Everyone thinks their own boat is the greatest, that`s why they chose it in the first place."
BULL! Most of the time it is what ever boat they can find in their price range.
Whenever a person asks for advice about which boat to buy, the standard advice is to decide what type of racing they want to do and to look around their area and see what boats are being raced.
If there is any Class racing available, you don't recommend a boat that is going to always put them in the open fleet.

"Why call F16 a "overweight wanna-be A Class" ? Why even compare the two?"
DUH, because that is exactly what Class that wouter targeted.
He has said so many times.
Look at his website.
Look at the "David and Goliath Cup page.
He refers to the A Class as a "prey class".

"Must a Tornado sailor also have two boats - no, he must just live with the fact that he can`t race single-handed,"
Wrong again. He can take off his jib and/or spin and race in the open class with the one f16.

"If your friend said he was looking for a boat that had a chute, could be sailed with crew, and occasionally without, and didn`t weigh 300 lbs, would you still tell him that F16 is a bad choice."
YES I WOULD! I would tell him all the things I am trying to tell you. Racing in a standard Class is always better than open fleet.
The reason that a person would ask for advice is that theoretically you know things they don't know.
Remember, the AMERICAN f16 class has already had two people quit and sell their boats.

I know of a specific example which in the end caused the person to quit cat sailing altogether.
This guy(C) had an old friend he worked with and a new friend he was trying to impress at the yacht club he just joined.
The new friend had a Nacra 5.2 that he was trying to sell because he didn't race it anymore.
All the cat sailors at the yacht club had switched to something else.
C talked the old friend into buying the the 5.2 with a lot of flowery promises about regattas.
Of course the 5.2 being a dead boat was always racing in the open fleet against miscellaneous whatever.
New friend became very disappointed in the regatta experience.
He specifically told me how upset he was at C, that he had been talked into buying a boat that had no one to race against.
He quit racing after two years and sold the boat.

So most emphatically, I know of no place or probable set of conditions, IN AMERICA, that would cause me to reccommend an f16 to a friend.
At least not one I wanted to keep.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't like "one-design" racing. Technically that is what Formula is about. Here are the guidelines, if you boat matches them, you get to race it.

Hobie doesn't want to sponsor anything that doesn't have to do with sailing if their boats are not in the majority, thats all. From the press release, it sounds like they are willing to get nasty about it too and I think that is where people begin to get bad vibes.

My home fleet is 98% Hobies and we get our insurance through US Sailing. Will this impact me as a Nacra guy? Yes and no. Yes because technically the regional events are usually "Hobie" events so there are very few places to race now. No because we all will still hang out and have a good time.

Other fleets are more of a split. What Hobie is taking away is the "structure" from regional events that have included other boats. What it will come down to is what clubs will play ball and what clubs will just say screw it. Yesterday I was pissed because of the press release. The more I think about it, the less I care.

Am I going to sail a Hobie this summer? Prob. not. Am I going to have fun on my boat? O yes... and that is what it is all about. I am just going to continue to promote good times with great sailing and let the chips fall where they want to. I will have to quit using the term "Hobie way of life" and call it something else.

Who knows, maybe after 2 years they will get the hint.

Orangesoda,
I have heard this said over and over, as though only Hobie sailors like to race one-design. It simply is not true. Most cat sailors, per surveys I have done through my magazine, prefer one-design racing if they have enough boats at a regatta for a one-design class.

I actually thought it was a brilliant move on the part of NAHCA when they started allowing an "Open Class" at their regattas, because they were able to say, "See? Those guys have to race on Portsmouth, and we are racing one-design, which is a lot more fun."

But, actually, many of "those guys" would have raced one-design if they had been allowed to do so at the Hobie regattas.

When a class knows it can race one-design at a regatta, the leaders muster out the troops and get boats to it. No incentive to do that when one-design fleets are not allowed.

Rick and I are staunch proponents of one-design racing. I personally think Portsmouth racing is the absolute pits.

Just wanted to point out that Hobie does not have a lock on love of one-design.

Orangesoda is finally a voice of reason. I can't understand why everyone is looking at this so negatively. Let's look at it from a glass-half-full perspective:

We should all thank the Hobie company for what they have done for catamaran sailing and what they continue to do. How many companies fork over 60 boats and a staff to assemble them for a World Championships? Sure they'll sell them, but would (could) any other company take that risk?

Then there is the question of promoting the sport. No other company offers such a broad range of boats and lasting designs as Hobie Cat. How many new cat sailors do you know that could jump on an A-cat or F16, not to mention an I20, and sail it off the beach with a minimum amount of instruction? Without Hobie's introductory level of boat, how many new sailors do you think would be buying catamarans? This humble foresite is what made Hobie Alter a legend and what continues to fuel the company and the entire sport. Does Hobie make the fastest boat? No. Is thier's the most advanced design? No, but so what. Hobie is a wonderful springboard and despite the low-tech design of the H16, Getaway and Wave, they are fun to sail (just ask Rick White), and one-design racing is just more satisfying than handicap.

I enjoy seeing lots of different boats on the water at a regatta, but I don't think Hobie's very difficult decission to promote only thier product will hurt anyone. Case in point: The treasurer of NAMSA, Bob Blackington, is also the racing commodore of Hobie Fleet 61. He loves to sail multihulls and will get behind any organization that supports multihull events and I think most sailors feel that way. I'm speaking for Bob here, but having seen his enthusiasm on the water - even after we pitchpoled my H20 - I think this is a fair statement. This is an opportunity to see other classes grow under the NAMSA fleet structure. It is not about greed or about Hobie trying to shun other boat owners. On the contrary, it is a BUSINESS decission that is designed to preserve a one-design fleet and promote a product. I'll be joining NAMSA and HCA and I'll look forward to seeing a NAMSA fleet take hold in the Denver area. I'll also join friends on the J-24 circuit and maybe I'll even get a chance to race to pitifully simple (but wildly popular) Laser - against another Laser, I hope.

Thanks Steve...I couldn't have said it better myself!!!

I was one of those involved in making the "erroneous" decision to allow other brands of catamarans at HCA events in the 1990's.

I thought it was in the best interest of the class at the time. The IHCA was weak, Hobie Cat was on the ropes and the NAHCA had been freed from company control. I have to laugh because you know who was NAHCA Chairman at the time? Paul Ulibarri.

When I first read the release this morning, I was stunned. After I got over being left out of the loop (after all, I don't have any official NAHCA position anymore), I had an epiphany:

This really won't change things that much.

Florida will continue to do what they've done the past few years. You don't have Hobie only regattas now and you won't in the future.

Same for the upper Midwest. Other than CRAM, CRAW and OCRA, there's not much else going on.

New England will continue to do what they've done the past few years, too. The only thing they'll have to do is change their name. You can't call yourselves "NAHCA Division 12" and still run multiple brand boat regattas.

Those areas of the country that have Hobie only events (California is the only one that really comes to mind) will continue on their path as well.

The areas that have strong mixed events (Divisions 16, 11, 9 are the ones I'm most familiar with) will have a tougher time adjusting, but we'll live through it.

Personally, I will continue to attend those events where I find "fair competition among friends" wherever I may find them. I've been doing this for so long, I don't have anything left to prove. I don't care about Division Points anymore. I don't care if the event organizer allows other classes of boats in their event, although I much prefer to race one-design. If I have fair weather, stiff competition, good friends, and a good time, I'm a happy camper.

I have asked Paul and Rich to further define what sanctions, if any, would be imposed in the event of non-compliance. Until then, I will keep my head on straight and worry about more important things (like driving home tonight in 6" of new snow).

Matt Bounds
NAHCA Sec/Treas/Newsletter Editor 1990-1996
NAHCA Chairman 1997-2000

I think people are taking it negatively because of the accusatory tone taken by the releases.

I think people are taking it negatively because the releases hint that action will be taken against Fleets that do both Hobie one design and are associated with open Fleets.

I think people are taking it negatively because some good alliances have been formed that will have to taken apart due to the above.

Mary - you are right that most people like one-design. As for the other comments, I don't think anyone is mad because they can't do the equivalent of racing a Snipe in a Laser race - get real folks, nobody said that. They're mad because if a Fleet wants to hold a Hobie one-design regatta they can't also have their friends from other classes have a start without bringing on the boogeyman. Or go on a fun sail, or be associated...

Other classes all do this? Hell, I crewed on a Flying Scot in a regatta where International Canoes had a start on the same course. Most of the dinghy clubs around here support multiple Fleets with multiple manufacturers. Would an established mono club supporting one-design Fleets of several manufacturers be able to add Hobie-16s to the Fleets they support? Sounds like they couldn't. And if that situation already exists, change may be necessary. Clubs that host Laser Fleets also host Optimist Fleets and 420 Fleets and so on. And they often have regattas where all the classes race. None of those manufacturers are telling the clubs that they cannot support other Fleets.

But it is true that it is opportunity for all involved. Some will sink and some will swim. Maybe just by shaking things up it will provide an overall benefit.

I take it personally because of all the work, time and dedication that I have put into our fleet and Div 9, all the new friends I've made through sailing who happen to sail on boats other than Hobie, the fun that we have at our events regardless of what boat you are sailing, is considered by the IHCA, or should I say PU, to be insignificant and no longer worthy of a Hobie event.

He is asking the very people who have kept the NAHCA alive to start over. I'm not willing to do that.

Tracie

Tracie, Robyn and I agree completely. When we first started sailing we went to a few regattas to learn and see what boat we wanted to buy. We CHOOSE a Hobie 18 not because anyone pushed it on us, but because we liked it. When we get ready to upgrade, we will buy based on what we like, hobie or not.

I too have made many friends who sail Hobies, and many who sail others and if the choice has to be made, I would rather sail one-design at a regatta with mutiple fleets, regardless of manufacturer.

I can see division 9 becoming a multihull division and our regattas staying the same, possibly with the help of NAMSA. Our Hobie fleet started the Upstate Sailing Association to encourage sailing of ALL multis and I don't see that changing.

I would rather see the above take place than to ever tell Jake, David, or any of the other members of the SeaCats, that they are not welcome at our regattas.

Hobie has a right to their opinion, this is what they feel is best for them. It will fragment many fleets and change some area regattas. I feel our division will work together as it has, make changes where needed, but keep our open policy and work to strengthen SAILING as a whole.

Kindest regards,

David and Robyn Strickland
Hobie Fleet 164 (at least for now)
Upstate Sailing Association

without CRAM? Do you think you would still be in the sport if the folks of CRAM said "sorry you can't sail with us because you have a Hobie". How can that policy be good for the sport?

Dave

One observation and one question

Observation – Hobie Fleet 295 has been holding regatta’s with an open class for more than 15 years. Over the years I have observed the size of the open class shrinking and composition of the open class changing from a collection of different manufacturers to a collection of orphaned Hobie’s. In 2003 we had 11 boats in the open class of which 6 were Hobies. There were 3 20’s, 1 16 single handed, 1 Hobie 21, 1 Hobie 20 with a spinnaker and 5 non-Hobie boats. In total we had 65 boats at the regatta including the 11 referenced above.

Question – Does the edict allow for the creation of a Hobie Orphan-Class (O-Class) to give those with less popular Hobie boats a chance to race as a bigger fleet?

Mark Gibson
Tiger 1107

Hi Mark,

The way I read it, it is permissible to have a start for "orphan" Hobie Classes. Just not any other brand of catamaran.

That's if (and only if) the organizing authority is part of the Hobie Class Association (Like Division 16 or Hobie Fleet 295).

Matt Bounds

This is in response to Matt Miller

I hope this change was a considered move and not an act of desperation. I personally do not see anything good coming out of this, for anybody.

I am most annoyed because it may mess the only working cat racing organization we have on the Texas Gulf Coast. The local Fleets are operating at a skeleton level. We are still working well at a division level, coordinate Regattas, share equipment and manpower, and buy insurance. If you mess that up, I am going to be really annoyed.

It doesn't help matters that the decision was made at an AGM which was held at a time and place that doesn't coincide with the historical time and place AND that it appears that the meeting was by invitation only since it was not publicized in the NAHCA magazine or other public forum. The run of the mill X-boat sailor that doesn't follow the Catsailor forum will get a nasty shock when they either read a NOR (assuming that the hosting fleet spells it out in the limited space available). Or worse when they show up for registration and discover that A)they can't register because they didn't sail that venue the previous year or B)if they sailed the previous year, that they would be required to buy an ANNUAL membership to an organization that does not welcome them and will ban future membership.

As far as Hobie letting other boats in 10 years ago, that was a done deal at a local level before NAHCA ever noticed. The issue was manpower. There were not enough involved people to run 2 competing organizations, so we merged. That gave us a few more good years.

The Hobie organization may look good on paper but, I am sure reality doesn't match. For example, the only Hobie owning member of the Houston Hullraisers/MSA/Hobie Fleet 8 Board, is my wife and she is the most angry about this change. (However she owns a Wave which technically isn't part of NAHCA) The organizations are mostly run by only a handful people, 1 or 2 in each city, and they are getting tired.

As far what happens next - we could ignore it, work around it or tell NAHCA to ... (maybe even provide a link on how we think they should ...) The worst thing for Hobie would be for the local organizations to ignore them, that would imply they do not matter. Which from a practical perspective, they don't. I haven't seen any support beyond some small to moderate giveaways for one of our three regattas in the last 10 years.


I really hope this was a well considered move because you have made enemies. My wife loaned her Wave out for dealer demo sails, we taught people to sail and even helped to sell a few for you. We will still teach people to sail on the Wave but I have a spare Tornado logo for the sail and we will just tell people the builder of our boat is a real ... and Escape makes a similar boat.


As for my vote on what to do next, I say reorganize as Prindle Fleet 2 under NAMSA. I still have about 5000 stickers for them and they had a really cool team Texas logo for the sail

Carl Bohannon (& Cyndi Bohannon)
Tornado US 782

As the former commodore of SEACATS and Fleet 141, I feel a little more info is necessary. Are sanctioned regattas meaning a Div 9 points regatta? Because my understanding of this would mean some kind of support from Hobie, and I can safely say that besides the website promotion by Tracie and possibly a newsletter ad(I have never been a member so I dont recieve those newsletters)we have never rec'd any Hobie money. We have rec'd the freebies(coozie, key chain, beach ball) What does Sanctioned truly mean?

Second, I run our local fleet 141 website and have the Hobie logo on it at the very top of the index page. Hobie has never given any monetary support to our club or website. Do I have to remove it in fear of violation and legal woes? Sure would be a shame for them to miss out on that free ad!
Our fleet grew out of a group of cat sailors who took it upon themselves to revive Fleet 141, and those people were not all Hobie Sailors. As commodore I fought to retain our points regatta, and I dont sail a Hobie. Now the very people I have looked out for and supported are telling me to get lost, they dont need me?
I sail an Inter 20 now, and just this week was interested in the F18, more specifically the H Tiger, but now I cant really say I could feel good about buying a Hobie, and that makes me real sad. You hear that Hobie? One potential lost sale already!

Tracie, David, Dave Lennard, Jake, I look forward to sailing with you guys again real soon, hope Div 9 makes it through this as an orginization, and hopefully a Hobie organization, but the future just doesnt look good, and again that makes me real sad.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org
www.teamseacats.com

Carl B.,

Cyndi and I have HAD this discussion. Damnit, hook up with those great folks down at the dike www.texascitydike.com and go sailing.

they picked up the wayward winds, dint they?

Don't hold on to an old dream. Go with what you have. The people at the dike are dynamic, and fun, and ready for some good competition. they just drooled over Palin's boat. (Now, TCDYC, DON'T take that personal, but we ALL LOVED Palin's boat, myself MOST included.) You go bring your Nado there and just sail and love it. The guy in front is the ONE, no matter what the numbers say.

Go sailing, love the wind, everyone's out there, and brand is jack [censored]
(sorry mary, I know you don't like ca langue, but u know thass true, pas rien la langue)

tami

Dave,

Since no IHCA on HCA officers are answering these questions, I will try to give you my limited knowledge.
Yes, if you run any event where you want to use the "H****", you must then abide by their rules. This would obviously include your points regatta listed in the Division book. You can still have the race with X-class, but now must drop all referance to "H" in any way.

According to the IHCA president, "H" dropped a cool $35,000 into NAHCA last year. Along with the $30 from each and every member, well... the money is giong somewhere. It just does not necessarly get to your local fleet, but that does not mean they are not supporting you. It's just on a higher level, ie, if HCA is strong, you will be.

Letterhead... that is interesting. I guess fleets that comply are allowed to use it, but fleets that run events not in line with these rules would be subject to the legal recourse that the IHCA president threatened.

I am confused about how this plays out around the world. The IHCA president stated at the Division 4 meeting that this mandate was sent to NAHCA because we were in violation of the intent of the IHCA. All other countries already comply and were in fact shocked at what we were doing in the U.S. The two responses from outside U.S. indicate to me that this just is not so. Both Europe and South Africa stated that Hobies race as part of larger multimanufacture regattas. Which is it? When is the rest of the world going to get their letters? If not, why not?

Ken

so i had this though while working today.... why not post a required amount of Hobie participation in regattas for hobie sanctioning? IE... 80% of boats registered must be hobies....and the div must maintain this over the season.
I know that our regattas in div 4 have a good support of the hobies and in our largest regatta of 52 boats, 42 were hobies and 10 were 'other' cats, A cats, I20's and a few others. I know that these folks have appreciated the Hobie regattas, the people, the organization and the racing... they appreciate being able to race in a well organized regatta where they have no fleets to race against.... And some of these people also volunteer to help at regattas where they are not sailing, giving something back to the division. My understanding has always been that we put on the Hobie regattas for the Hobies and have invited the others to 'piggy back' on the experience. Now of course, we have always had a great turn out of hobies vs x class... I am gathering that in other divisions/fleets the balance is swaying away from the hobies... I can understand then the concern about hosting a Hobie regatta where more than half the boats are not hobies.. it then becomes a multihull regatta.. with hobie support?

dunno.. i'm rambling now i think.. so i'll leave it there... my $.02 worth... (cdn, that is.. about $.005 US)

Bob-
When I moved to North Carolina about 10 years ago there was a Hobie Fleet and a separate "X-boat" fleet, but we were both getting progressively smaller so we essentially "merged", with all the "X-boaters" joining the Hobie Fleet and NAHCA and paying their dues. Within two years of the "merger" most of the active Fleet officers were "X-boaters", NOT because we TRIED to "infiltrate" the Hobie Fleet but because the poor Hobie sailors who had been willing to be Fleet officers for the previous several years were sick and tired of doing it year after year and WELCOMED the inclusion of the "X-boaters"!! This allowed the "Hobie" Fleet to survive and even prosper during this bleak period in catamaran history. With the inclusion of the "X-boats" and people there was enough critical mass to conduct fleet meetings, regattas, and social events. Well, at least there is no doubt now who is actually "running things" at IHCA/HCA - the HOBIE CAT COMPANY with the supposed "officers" no more than company puppets- it's obviously NOT a democracy of any sort.

Kirt Simmons
H 14 (FOR SALE!) Flyer "A" cat, etc....

There should always be an H16 class, we have a Frostbite H14 class, the H17 has enough boats at regional points regattas to have a class start, and the Tiger is growing here, but for Hobie to think this exclusive ruling will help their one design classes is NUTS! The sport is waning, and exclusion will never help grow the sport. I have only been sailing Hobies/cats for 7 years, but even I know that dealer support in New England is anything but consistant. The Massachusetts dealer SUCKS! Many sailors I know have switched to Nacras and Inters. They did so for better boats, and for the service provided by Rick Bliss. Matt, I love my Hobie! But you would cringe if you could hear the conversations I've had with dealers about parts! Since it isn't a stock boat, I no longer have a chance to race it as is at IHCA events. I'm not looking to compete, I just believe the race course is the best accelerator for my learninng curve. I want to follow the vetrans arround the course. So much for that dream! I never wanted to join a fleet or club when I got my first Hobie, but when I stumbled on 448's annual Island Hop, I was taken in! The members were so welcoming and helpful! What I love about Division 12 is that it is so inclusive! We have had members with many brands of boats. They come from all sorts of different levels of our society, waiter, firefighter, truck drivers, engineers, nurses, executives...Different races etc. and by far the majority all pull together to help eachother enjoy the sport! If the rest of society could work as well towards common goals, the world would be in much better shape! To exclude people like Rick Bliss, John Smith, and so MANY others because they don't drive Hobies anymore is going to kill Regattas, or get our fleets to dump IHCA! Brian

Reply to Ken Marshack :

Just to clear things up, in South Africa cat sailing is much smaller than in USA, but probably more concentrated in certain areas. In Cape Town the Hobie 16`s are the majority (20-25 active), Mosquito`s are close behind (15-20 active), and there are a few Dart 18`s (only 1 or 2).
In Gauteng there are 40 Dart 18`s, while the Hobie class has all but died out there.
The Hobie class here organises the Hobie Points series Regattas, incorporating a Long-distance race on the Saturday. It`s open to all classes of cat, the Long distance race is scored as open class on ISAF handicap. The points series races have one start for all classes, but we are scored separately as classes. The reason we don`t have 3 separate starts is that it would take 3 times as much organising, and as I mentioned, cat sailing is not huge here.
I also believe that the Hobie sailors like the fact that we race with them, as we are pretty even on speed around a course (we are much smaller in sail area than true F16 boats.) There`s friendly rivalry, more boats on the water to race, more fun for all. We like racing with them, and it would be a pity if Hobie decide to disallow this to continue. The Hobie class here also benefit from multiclass regattas : they will be holding their Provincial Champs together as part of an Open class regatta which caters for all cats, dinghies and even sailboards. Last year we had over 250 boats at this event, of which 23 were H16`s and 5 or 6 Tigers. The H16 class was the second largest class & had their own start. Would it be a good idea for IHCA to disallow them to participate in such a well-organised event ? Would it detract from their mission to market their boat ? I think the opposite, if they held their event separately at a venue that did not have all the other sailors present, who would see them ? Who would it hurt but themselves ?
The Dart class did this last year - this year they`ve decided to join in the fun !
I sincerely hope that IHCA understand what it is they are proposing to do. The Hobie class still have their own identity, as a non-Hobie sailor I can`t attend their Nationals or Provincial Champs, those are Hobie sanctioned events and this is only logical - you can`t bring a Hobie to a Mosquito Nationals. But to enforce this ideal on all existing well attended open class events, even if they are run by the Hobie class, would be crazy.

Steve

The market has spoken, and that is why a lot of people are buying X boats - because Hobie isn't the leader in innovation anymore. (although I do respect the Tiger) And so now NAHCA thinks that by being "protectionist" they will protect/promote their brand.

There are a lot of X boaters out there who have done a lot to promote "Hobie" fleets. So I guess these Hobie fleets will now lose a lot of support. Its a shame. We were all getting along so well.

"This in spite of the fact in the late 1960's a surfboard maker named Hobie Alter
brought out a catamaran that was faster and more exiting to race than the Aqua
Cat. Which brings us to Art Javes ' Hobie story: "the Aqua Cat was the first
catamaran he sailed,"Javes said of Alter."I met him at a boat show in
Anaheim,California.He had the neighboring booth,selling his surfboards.I
introduced him to the Aqua Cat. A while later he called me ans said,'your going to hate me.'
and said he was going into the catamaran business. I said I didn't mind. Having
another catamaran around would only help people get the idea that sitting on a boat is better
than sitting in it."

an excerpt from a Full and By article written by Bill Schanen(Editor and Publisher)

That about sums things up.

Tracie

Division 12 shouldn't be effected much. Out of 7 points regattas last year 4 were run by open clubs. Out remaining 3 regattas one may not happen, a non-Hobie sailor is running one and my parents are scheduled to provide the committee boat. They won't do so it if my brother and I are excluded and the last one will be OK without us. On a side note my parents have donated their time and all of the gas to get to the site at about $400 per year to support a Hobie fleet we are a not even members of. I personally resigned as Vice Chair and my wife who is the Treasurer may do the same. Our commodore was blindsided by this whole thing. He found out when people started calling him. A special meeting is in the planning stage and we will find out what sides of the fence people are on. Many sailors have been playing both sides of the fence. We have had offers to sail the bigger regattas much like the 18hts have but have been more loyal to our local fleets. We will become stronger due to sailing outside the Hobie bubble. Inside the bubble it is hard to attract new sailors because you just sail in your bubble. I had a sailor track me down after watching us fly past him while he sat on the rail of a 48' lead sled. He is buying an I20. If we hadn't been sailing in a mixed fleet he would have never had been aware we even existed.
In closing I wish them well rebuilding the division and fleets in this new era. Having been division commodore, run events and fleets, it will take more than the 20 sailors I estimate they will have left. I look forward to meeting new people. All sailors will be welcome as always. This are my personal views.

I am a “pig boat” Hobie 16 sailor of 20+ years. I think the recent move by NAHCA (now HCA) should be viewed in a positive light. Sure there is plenty to be grumpy about. Both sides lose initially – we lose sailing with friends; we lose numbers ($) at regattas; we lose resources for putting these regattas on.

But in the longer term, I think it will make both groups stronger. While many of the non-Hobie sailors may be lamenting the loss of a great organizing authority like NAHCA, it will give the X-class a chance to finally stand on its own 2 feet rather than constantly be in the shadow of “Hobie-dom”. Finally, X-class catamarans can come together and form their own mission – to promote multihull sailing of all kinds to everyone. Finally you can emerge from the stigma of “Hobie Cat” to form your own identity. I believe after 10 years of “nursing”, X-class, NAMSA, or whatever can be and is ready to be weaned. Some can say it was done rather suddenly, but the fact is that this issue has been boiling and broiling for some time now.

The Hobies will initially be weakened. But long term it will give them a chance to focus on their mission – building a one-design fleet. Both entities can co-exist in America. And both entities can help introduce and promote multihull sailing to interested persons.

Have you ever had a lover break off the relationship? At the time, you are mad, angry, sad, discouraged, and a host of other emotional responses. But after a few weeks, you start saying “She was no good for me, anyhow!”, and things like that. Well, that is what is happening here. Initially there are some hurt feelings. But in a few weeks or months or years I believe both groups will look back and be thankful for the split.

I wish the HCA and the X-class all the best in building their respective fleets. Nothing beats a multihull! Regardless of who made it, it still beats the pants off a Laser!! (even if it is a “piggy” Hobie 16!!)

Why are you knocking your own class of boat? In all of our years of putting on seminars, the Hobie 16 is the only class that was still out on the water sailing VERY fast and having a blast when the wind was up and all the other boats had retired to the beach.

Mark,
CRAM exists as an open organization. You can make it anything you want. The infrastructure is there. Just organize a fleet and bring it to the regattas. You will get your own start, trophies, etc. It takes someone to organize the fleet. If you want more Hobie 16s, get organizing. The effort to revive Division 10 could be refocused to bring Hobies to an existing, thriving organization with regattas already scheduled. What could be easier?

Roger Cochran

Roger,
That's exactly what I told Jeff Rabidoux, who is now working to revitalize Division 10. I admire his energy and dedication to getting the Hobies together again. I have been doing what I can to help him promote his cause. Heaven knows, I sure miss the wonderful years Rick and I spent racing in Division 10, and I wish they were still happening. But sometimes you just can't go back in time. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

Kirt, you are wrong.
Never have "most of the active Fleet officers" of H-Fleet 97 been "X-boaters".
I didn't become an officer until I bought an H-boat and joined NAHCA.
Yes I still owned an 18sq and an Isotope, and sailed them occasionally.
When you volunteered to be Commodore, you owned a Nacra 5.0, a Nacra 18sq, a J-22, and I don't know what else, but you also owned an H-14 and were a member of NAHCA.

We, the members of H-Fleet 97, were always adamant about complying with NAHCA rules.

It was attending the H-Division 9 regattas which convinced me to get an H-17.
Not because the H-17 is a great boat or even a good boat for me. At 205lbs I am at a severe disadvantage on it.
It is because we used to get 10-15 boats at regattas, which made for great racing. We often have great battles for NOT DFL.
While attendance has dropped off, we still have class racing and we are expecting two new boats next year.
It beats the hell out of being the only A Class or Taipan racing in open fleet against a Trac 16.

This is great news for the world of catsailing!

--Allows cat sailors to better integrate into the world of sailing at large instead of being pigeon holed just as "Hobie guys," as though we aren't really sailors first (cat sailors second, and Hobie/Inter/Prindle/ARC/etc sailors third)

--Allows Hobie to spend its money where it wants to and not subsidize or worry so much about their competitors making better boats

--Will ultimately strengthen US Sailing and NAMSA; HCA could be allowed to run their events with NAMSA ones

--Will free up local cat fleets that have been "Hobie Fleets" in name only from the charade and from unecessary oversight from an organization that may not represent their local interests

--Will help foster formula racing, the approach used in most other forms of racing (eg F1, Nascar, Kart, AMA Supercross) yet can preserve "pure" one design classes that are big enough (eg H16); a car race between Porsches only is alway going to be smaller than a race between several marques of sports cars with similar performance...and Porsches wouldn't be what they are if they didn't have Ferrarri, Audi, BMW, etc pushing them

Good luck to all of you who put in countless thankless hours on the administrative side of the sport we all enjoy!

great post eric.

NAHCA's decision to exclude all non-Hobies from their regattas is most likely driven by the success of Formula 18 racing. Hobie Cat Company would love to see all the other Formula 18's go away and leave only the Tiger. This sentiment is not shared by all of the Tiger sailors that I know.

Through excluding non-Hobies, Hobie Cat Company can preserve the sales pitch "Buy a Tiger and you get one-design racing as well as Formula racing". In other words buy a Tiger and you can race it at Hobie regattas and then you can take it to regattas that the rest of the world puts on and race it there. The flip side of that is what Hobie is saying to the non-Hobies. They are saying to us "Thanks for the hospitality & hard work hosting regattas but stay away from ours". Any Hobie fleet that chooses to follow the company line & exclude other F-18's from their regattas is also saying that to the rest of us.

Could this new agressive Tiger marketing be due to the high Euro / $ exchange rate which will drive up the price of the Euro manufactured Tiger?

Tom Liston

I helped start OCRA back in 1995 in an effort to address, for Ohio, many of this issues that have just confronted the rest of the country. Before we really got rolling there was a fair bit of communication behind the scenes getting the local fleets in Ohio all lined up and in agreement before we put out our first newsletter and schedule. I have attached a copy of that 1st newsletter because I think it does a reasonably good job of explaining what our goals were back then. I hope what we have done can be of some value to those of you dealing with it now.

First my fleet. My fleet is the catamaran fleet of the Alum Creek Sailing Association in Columbus Ohio. Our fleet captain, as part of his duties, is on the executive committee of the ACSA. We pay ACSA dues, we help run regattas, and we get help from the rest of the ACSA when it’s time to put on our big regional OCRA regatta in the fall. ACSA has enough members to afford a very nice committee boat, a chase boat, insurance, etc.. and we have just started construction of our own sailing facility including docks in the state park on Alum Creek Reservoir. The benefits of being a fleet in the context of a larger yacht club are huge.

Now to the regional associations. I would recommend that as you move forward you take a look at least at OCRA, CRAM, & CRAC as they have each done this yet each in their own way. I am the most familiar with OCRA, reasonably familiar with CRAM, and only limitedly familiar with CRAC. Hopefully someone from CRAM and someone from CRAC will speak up to tell their stories and help some of the folks just getting started to avoid some of the pitfalls and to build the kind of local and regional sailing groups that will best serve the sport.

In Ohio most of the fleets were self-sufficient and several were associated with Yacht Clubs already. Hence insurance wasn’t an issue. Each fleet already had its own. OCRA was therefore formed as a loose organization providing an affiliation between fleets, a common race format, a season championship series points system, a calendar, and quite frankly not much more. I did make the mistake of not getting enough people involved in the early days, and OCRA has tended to stay an organization run by a very few people for the benefit of quite a few.

I view CRAM as one of the premier regional sailing associations. Rather than being an association of local fleets, they are a highly mobile (gypsy) club, with a locality of the whole lower peninsula of Michigan. They have a large number of volunteers, a full slate of officers, their own equipment, and their own insurance. They “wander” around the state parks having regattas and parties with great success. Internally they are made up of a number of fleets. Those fleets can be one-design or Portsmouth. They have fleets for every body of sailors in the group. There is an I-20 fleet, an F-18 fleet, an I-17 fleet, etc.. If there is interest there could be a Hobie 16 fleet, a Hobie 20 fleet, a Hobie Wave fleet, or a Mystere 4.3 fleet. All it would take would be a few boats, and somebody willing to be fleet captain and lead the charge to building that fleet. I believe there is also a Portsmouth fleet for those who race 1 off designs or prefer handicap racing. And by having all these fleets work together they make things like an RC boat, and insurance affordable to all the members. (Remember you don’t need much more race committee to throw a 40 boat regatta than you do to throw a 5 boat regatta.)

I would also like to put in a plug for US Sailing’s on the water and on the beach insurance programs. US Sailing is with a new insurance carrier and they are excellent. Both the rates and the coverages have improved dramatically in the move from the old carrier to the new. If you haven’t looked at US Sailing’s insurance program lately, you need to look again.

Talk to the people out there in the independent regional sailing associations and look at what they've done. Then do whatever makes the most sense for your region, the personalities and demographics of your members and fleets, and have fun while promoting the sport of sailing.
Ohio Catamaran Racing Association

Page 2 of the newsletter is attached.

As a founding member of a new club in catamaran racing and sailing I would like to thank Hobie for their decision. I (we) look forward to joining the NAMSA and hope the results are a simple and organized regional and national schedule of events. I feel that following the US Sailing Divisions is a good idea because it will give us more creditibilty with them and will give us a framework for other multihull championships for women and youth (may I say that again, Youth!!) in addition to the Alter Cup. These are exciting times. Look at all the energy and ideas that Hobie's decision has created.


Jon Britt
Outer Banks Catamaran Club(OBXCC)

After following many of the fine posts on this and other related threads, I'd like to take a moment and apologize for letting my emotions get the best of my earlier comments!! I would also like to re-emphasize that my frustrations (and associated comments) were directed at the Hobie Corporation...and DEFINITELY NOT towards anyone choosing to sail a Hobie...It would be ludicrous for any of us to alienate ourselves from each other purely on the basis of what boat we choose to sail...we are a relatively small community of interest and need to work together as an entire community to promote this sport that we enjoy so much for the benefit of all!! Having said that, I second the motion that this could actually be the best thing that could have happened for us as Catamran sailors in that it does afford us an excellent motivation and opportunity to get a larger more inclusive organization (NAMSA???) off the ground....and I think that can only be good for Cat Sailing.

This weekend many of us from around the Midwest will be in Chicago with the HCA Div 10 Commodore, Jeff Rabidoux(who has publicly stated a desire to promote Catamaran sailing in all it's glorious forms...)and I look forward to very constructive debate on how we can use this opportunity to further Cat sailing for all of us!!!


Now.....can someone please hand me a tissue...sniff, sniff....
(AND..btw..I am NOT from the SouthEast...and I DO still own and sail my Hobie 18!!)

Joe

I think the non-Hobie cats should sail out to the start line like they own the water, which we all do anyway, finish the course with topless crew, loud obnoxious music, and a cooler full of good beer.

Hey, that's a good idea for every race.

Sounds like when times were hard, Hobie used the X fleet for the resuce (more $)

Now that some fleets have survived, thanks in part to afore mentioned fleets, they have said a rude, but steadfast, thank you.

Please tell me how the following scene is bad:

1 H-16s start (the RC and course is already set)
2 H-17s start....
3 H-18s start....
4 H-20s start....

whatever is left over, starts! They invite one to their regatta (hobie day) then say, you dont get your own start. Maybe one day will come (soon) that some local fleets will have to ask NAMSA (or any other athority) for a start.

Let them pay, then dont be polite or kind. As the other post said, "pay back is #@#"

so long,

To set the F18 record straight…

Hobie Cat Company USA has supported, and will continue to support, the NAF18 class and F18 racing as Hobie Cat France and Hobie Cat Australia support F18 racing in their regions. Hobie Cat encourages Tigers to race both formula and one design World Wide.

Don't get this confused with a completely unrelated one-design issue going on within the Hobie Class Association events.

The Hobie Companies (World Wide) and the Hobie Class Associations (World Wide) are not suggesting that Hobie sailors should not race where ever and with whomever they want. Hobie Cat understands that one design racing is but one part of the whole sailing experience...

I am sure that plenty of Hobie sailors have been, and will be, working NAF18 events in the future. Several Hobie sailors are on the board, right? Heck... even the Hobie President, Doug Skidmore, was working the weather mark boat at the Performance / NAF18 Nationals event (with Jack Young of Performance) one day last fall. Hobie Cat USA has offered to help run a NAF18 North Americans. Hobie Company / Hobie Sailors have also offered guidance in forming this class and Hobie Cat USA has organized some small amount of funding as well. I'd call that embracing the Formula 18 Class.

You can look at it this way... it's like some big family... Hobie has it's own kids and a bunch of nieces and nephews. They are all family, but can’t Hobie love its own kids best?

There is a time and a place for a family reunion… but there is also a time and a place to go home and hang with just your own kids.

Can you put a figure on the amount money you plan to contribute to the remaining Hobie Fleets to keep them viable as well as offset the costs of their points (Hobie Only) regattas?

In the 10 years I was involved with Hobie Fleet 11 we received 0 $ from Hobie and it's only been recently that we have received any items for giveaways. So I find it curious that now Hobie has all this love to give.

Regards,
David Ingram

Send in your ten bucks plus ten more to bolster the account...I'll send my check today.

Eric Arbogast
H-20 #911
MYC
CABB
NAMSA

David,

First, contrary to popular opinion, this not a Hobie Company decision regarding X class. This is an IHCA and HCA bylaws issue. Of course, Hobie Cat USA is supporting it fully and for good reason. Personally, I wasn't even involved with the decision the class made, but being a long time Hobie Class enthusiast and racer I fully understand it and support it. It's not a company issue to me it is a class issue.

What is Hobie Cat going to give to those Hobie fleets?

The Hobie Cat Company already provides considerable support to the Hobie Class of North America in funds, administration and labor. I personally do the Class News covers and handle the newsletter production issues. Our parts department (which I manage) has been providing regatta give-aways to Hobie events for nearly 30 years that I can remember. It is not new. All a fleet has to do is ask. We provide a number of higher dollar items and include handfuls of other little Hobie trinkets so more people get something. (We will work on the type of items we include so more people can feel they get something of value from our efforts.) Our company employees who race attend regional events, National and Worlds events. When we have been asked, we provide personnel for the class GEP (Guest Expert) program. We are involved with US Sailing and other organizations that promote sailing and multihull sailing.

We are at the bigger Boat shows in the country promoting Hobie sailing and racing. We constantly promote local fleets as a way to get people into the sport.

David, I can't think of everything we do, but we do allot.

What will we do in addition to this? We are always open to suggestion.

David,

I'm not completely in the loop as far as the current level of support - Ken Marshack mentioned $35K earlier in this thread. I don't know where that # came from. It seems kinda high.

As the former treasurer of the NAHCA (from '91-'97), I can speak authoritatively about our support from the company during that period. We got $6,000 a year in direct financial support, no strings attached. It represented anywhere from 10%-15% of our income, which basically covered our administrative expenses. Most money was spent on the production and delivery of the NAHCA News. We spent anywhere from $5K to $2.5K a year on course stickers, flag stickers, fleet brochures, racing forms, and other regatta management supplies. All of that was available free to the fleets for the asking.

Did fleets get any $ directly? - yes they did. In 1992, the NAHCA paid out $4,948 in "fleet dividends" (a rebate of $3 for every NAHCA member from that fleet) Fleet 11 got $18. (You only had 6 NAHCA members in your fleet at the time). The practice was discontinued in 1993 because it was a logistical nightmare - there were over 600 checks printed that first year. Postage alone was killing us.

Anyway, back to the present day. From my limited understanding, the Hobie Cat Co. continues to give the NAHCA direct funding that helps subsidize the costs of running the association. Oh, BTW, the only paid NAHCA position is the NAHCA News editor, and from personal experience, it isn't nearly enough (they're paid by the issue). Hobie pays the costs of the NAHCA News' color covers in return for ad space. They also provide direct $ support to Hobie Area Championships. Their only stipulation is that the event be Hobie only. Quite a reasonable request, IMHO.

I've seen a lot of Hobie merchandise raffled off and given away at regattas - and not key chains & other crap. I'm talking kayaks, trap harnesses, PFD's, wetsuits, spray pants, sunglasses - you name it. Does Performance Catamarans do the same? (I really don't know.)

When I ran the NAHCA, we would not entertain requests for direct $ support to fleets. Why? No accountability. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but there are people out there that would take the association's (or Hobie Cat's) money and just disappear. It's just not good business sense to throw money around like that.

For the last three years, I've been blissfully disconnected from the politics of the NAHCA. About a year ago, an unknown local guy (Jeff Rabidoux), decided it was time to start the local fleet up again. You know what? We didn't need any money from Hobie to do it. We just did it. And we're having a blast doing it. We've got the weirdest collection of boats, from my newer 16 & 17, to Mark Colby's 30 year old "Hobiesaurus" 16, to John Bauldry's "Trailer Baby" Tiger. It's just like the old days.

In less than six months, we'll be running our first Division Points Regatta in over 15 years. Yeah, the budget's tight, but we won't need Hobie's money to break even. All it takes is someone with the vision and the energy to make it happen. Jeff's given us the spark to do that.

I hope this has answered at least part of your question, in a very long-winded way :-)

Matt Bounds

Mary you missed this press release.

WOMEN ON THE WATER CLINICS 2004

W.O.W.

Attention all women Hobie sailors!!!!

This year, as the Hobie Class Association Women's Representative, I am launching a new program called Women on the Water Clinics or W.O.W.

This is what the clinics are about. I am asking all Divisions to consider designating one regatta this season to a W.O.W. clinic. This means offering one of your best sailors, preferably a woman, to instruct a clinic before the regatta specifically for women racers. It's our hope that a brief clinic might help those women who are unsure about participating in a regatta and need a "push". Or maybe some women just need some instruction in racing rules, tactics, or how to sail. This could be an opportunity for women to develop the confidence in their sailing, therefore, lead to more participation in regattas (perhaps skipper a few!).

Every participant will receive a FREE t-shirt (they are awesome!) and a Hobie U book, all compliments of the Hobie Class Association.

It's my hope that by offering these clinics, we will promote women in sailing and racing and give women an opportunity to develop skills to become effective and confident skippers and crew. So take a look at the schedule and pick a clinic close to you! You will also find contact information to get more details about each clinic. I will be updating this schedule as more clinics are organized. Keep checking for updates!

See you on the start line!

Heather Morrison
HCA Women's Representative

Heather,
Sounds great.
Please e-mail the press release to me, along with your contact information. I will be glad to print it, but it is useless without the contact info.

Thanks.
Mary

Following this thread. My personal opinion is:
For those Hobie Divisions and Fleets in question.
Do you feel the 400 lb Gorilla (Hobie Cat Company & HCA representatives) lurking in the corners?
Some care, introspection and homework is advised.

NAMSA is a good candidate but read the fine print. The only problem I saw was, if your group wants some autonomy this may not be the umbrella your organization wants to be under.

You can play outside the boxes (HCA, NAMSA, US Sailing, etc.) it is just a little more difficult. I found you can get the same insurance etc. for the same or cheaper through private companies. Insurance Riders for big events where government property etc. is used is easily obtained. Equipment you may already control. As far as manpower goes when did you ever have enough volunteers, support boats etc. and how much help did you get from the big organizations?

IHCA, NAHCA, HCA, The Hobie Cat Company or whatever the name wants to be has every right to exclude whom ever they want from their events. As I see it, the ‘Suits’ think if you change the name everything will change their way. Well change can be good for all. As the fly on the wall it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Terry

I don't remember putting any fine print in our by-laws. Can you elaborate why you think NAMSA does not allow autonomy?

Funny!
HCA just made a huge decision and enacted it. Did I get to vote? No! And I have been a paid member since 1980. Did my Division Rep., not sure who that may be, vote? I doubt it. And if he did, did he ask anyone around. I know they did not ask John McKnight, my Commodore of Fleet 36.

Whereas, in NAMSA, it is set up that each member votes.
Rick

On the Welcome Page of this site is the Headline Story of Hobie's enactment. At the end of the teaser story is a link to the site.

or Click on the following:
http://www.multihullsailing.org
Thanks,
Rick

Rick,

First of all, in case I haven't said it before, .. Thank you for this nice catamaran site and for the opportunity to discuss catamaran issues in a forum of catsailors. Thank you for that and for the thousands of other things that you have done for the sport. Your book "Catamaran sailing for the 90's" was the most helpful of all the books I've read on the subject of catsailing. I have recommended the book to many. I extend the thanks to Mary, as well.



What do we vote on? Why have I never been asked? Why have I never been asked ANYTHING from NAMSA? Why did I pay dues? What did NAMSA do to support me or the sport? Why did I get a little card with my name on it? Why did NAMSA never say a word to me (except for apologizing for the card being late)? Why did they never even bother to remind or ask if I wanted to renew?

From my point of view, NAMSA is nothing more than a wishing well. A place where I threw money, wished for better things to come. If things did get better, I had no evidence that NAMSA had anything to do with it.

If someone reading this has been helped by my contribution, good for you! It had nothing to do with any decisions that I voted on.

GARY

Gary,

I really wish I could deny your criticisms of NAMSA last year. We too were gleefully looking down a wishing well and dreaming of all the things we could do. We dug our well but found the rope too short for the bucket to reach the bottom. Analogy aside, we did have a very enthusiastic response to NAMSA but we did not receive as many memberships as we had anticipated. We had overestimated ourselves and for that I owe you and the other past and existing NAMSA members an apology. We did accomplish some things, most of which are the organizational items that are transparent like tax status, and membership database / structure. We went off deeply exploring some tangents, like aiding a professional race series in the U.S., that in hindsight was putting the cart before the horse and never panned out. We’ve also been weeding through the various insurance options - but we simply did not reach closure on the many goals we had set for last year.

This does not change the fact that we need an organization like NAMSA – even if NAHCA decides to reverse their x-boat policy. This doesn’t change the fact that we can greatly improve catsailor’s organizational appearance to the likes of US Sailing and the world – to change the stigma such that catsailing and catsailors are responsible, fun, skillful, serious, and organized sailors who not only demand but deserve respect. It doesn’t change the fact that we need to get together to help each other look out for our own interests. If we can only start these things, our sport can only get better and grow larger.

So what’s different this time? Where was the misfire last year? For me especially, I’m learning a lot at this and I learned a lot last year. One of the things we learned is that we depended on a very enthusiastic and extremely talented, but too small, core group of people. Thanks to the suggestions from you folks, I believe that the one thing that will make the biggest difference for us this year is to set up regional officers. This will place representation closer to everybody and get more people involved. I expect that we will begin nominating these people very soon. The board should make sure everyone is communicating and that we are all moving in the same direction. I would also like to see us have a simple points series this year – it would not take much to set it up and we already have a great Nationals location within the already existing Tradewinds Regatta in Key Largo, FL. Do you have an idea how you would like to see this first point series run? Let us know, and if you have the talent and you would like to, you might just find yourself in charge of it. We as sailors can do anything we want within this organization but as an organization we have to empower those who have good ideas and want to work at making things better. This year will be different because we will have more people involved. This can work, this can be done, and it is certainly needed.

Hey Rick,
The vote was 1-0
PU(Puff Uli) was the only vote allowed.

Okay, so NAHCA did it again. No, I'm not surprised at their actions, but I have to tell you, X-Boats have never been a problem at any of the regattas I've been at in the Northeast; they're always less than 10% of the boats.

I'm in Fleet 119 in Division 16, and we've always supported the Hobie Class because we knew that one-design racing was the right way to enjoy sailing. But, we also know that being arrogant and up-tight about every little thing just created more fences and decreased communication between people who actually enjoy the same thing; sailing.

Here's our Fleet's mission statement written quite a few years ago: "Our Mission: Our club is dedicated to the pursuit of sailing for its own sake; to provide a safe, family environment for all to enjoy multihull beach craft; and to develop safe sailing skills in all of our members. Our club strives for continuous improvement in the sport and we recognize our obligations to our community. Though we participate in racing, we do so as a fun activity; we do it for the love of the outdoors, our members, and being in harmony with the sea".

We have 40 boats on the beach in our Fleet: three Nacras, three Hobie 14s; 10 Hobie 18s; one Hobie 21. Are we to tell all of these people that we can no longer provide a race for them? The Tigers enjoy having the Nacras around because they enjoy having fun with them. What's the big deal? They're fun and expanding our friendship ties. How can we possibly go back to our friends and tell them we don't want them at our races anymore because somewhere along the line, they decided to take a different path. They already know they're different, but they are involved of all of our Fleet functions. Can Hobie send a rep out to take their place on a committee or crash boat? Can they help us clean the beach? Can they sit on the beach at night with us, swap stories and advice, and have a few beers? Can we count on Hobie to be there if we have a storm problem?

Sincerely,

Wyatt

Wyatt...I think a lot of fleets around the country are asking the same question. As I understand it (and if I'm wrong somebody step in and correct me). Your organization can still conduct events with non hobies however if you hold an HCA IHCA sanchioned regatta, use the Hobie name, materials, trademark etc. then the new policy applies.

For example Fleet 250 exists within the Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club. Fleet 250 will hold a points regatta this summer and the new policy will apply. SHBCC will run the Statue race and an F18 regatta open to all brands. For the most part all these events will be organized by the same people.

The more I read this thread and the more I talk with fellow sailors, the more I’m starting to realize that this entire ballyhoo comes down to one person: PU, which are appropriate initials for the way he is acting in his position with the IHCA. From what I’ve been told, the board’s voting population is so far up PU’s bum that it’s hard to tell where he leaves off and they begin. He’s now made IHCA and HCA his personal fiefdom to rule as he sees fit. After reading IHCA’s press release describing the new rules, how they've been broken, and the consequenses of future crimes, it has “grumpy old man” written all over it. Now he’s telling the organizers of next year’s H-20/Tiger/17 nationals that they can’t also include the TheMightyHobie18 because, among other reasons, there isn’t enough room in Monterey Bay for all four classes. Are you kidding me? There was enough room for the Olympic’s sailing venue in a lake near Atlanta; there most certainly is enough room in Monterey Bay for a Hobie regatta. He’s also, apparently, putting off other applicants with a string of questionable excuses, while insisting that he be named PRO and demanding everything short of a eunuch to wipe his bottom in exchange for the service.

What’s sad, and should be frightening for Hobie Cat Co. is that PU is now a very influential voice for a very large population of Hobie customers. Obviously he has devoted a great deal of personal time and energy to Hobie Cat sailing and sailors, but has he lost site of the overall goal of this sport: Fun and friendships, not personal vendettas. If I were at Hobie Co’s helm, I’d be reeling this guy in and making very sure that he doesn’t single handedly poke a big hole in the proverbial hull.

I got an email from a person named Stephen that asked me to post his message as he didn't seem to know how to do so. It is as follows:
With regard to the new directives from IHCA and NAHCA, I would like to share
some of my personal thoughts.


It serves no purpose to approach this from an emotional point of view, even
though for many of us it is an emotional issue.


Hobie Cat as a company, I am sure is somewhat tickled by these new
directives, but it may have effects they had not anticipated. The old "Law of
Unintended Consequences" comes to mind.


As a company, Hobie's greatest success has become their greatest burden. The
late 70's and early 80's saw an incredible growth of Catamaran sailing not
only here in the USA, but worldwide. The result is that there is an incredible
inventory of used boats out there, and its Cheap! Many people wanting to try
the sport can buy a used boat, and for a few dollars more, fix it up and have a
very serviceable boat. Because of the need for cheap fix up items, there are
many "after-market sources" for the necessary items. Since many of these "new
sailors" are not going to race, or not aware of the requirement for Factory
replacement items, and the rules of "one Design racing," they purchase their
needed items from sources other than Hobie Cat. Unless Hobie as a company is
selling parts to the owners of existing boats, it does them no good at all.


Hobie Cat as a company could, in large part, care less about all the people
sailing boats that have already been purchased. Just like automobile
manufacturers, they are only concerned with the boat you are going to buy Tomorrow.
After all, they are in the business of selling NEW boats.


In today's business environment where companies take a rather short sighted
view of things, they are more concerned with the profit and loss figures for
THIS Quarter or THIS year. That having been said, Hobie needs to sell new boats
NOW! They cannot seem to take the long term view that eventually, all that
used inventory out there will be depleted and eventually, people that want to
"class race" in a "strong one design class" will eventually have to buy a new
boat instead of a used one.


Look at the Laser as an example, how many similar boats are available, but
because of a strong class, if you want to race that "type" of boat, the only way
to go is Laser.
NAHCA has taken a step to strengthen themselves on a National level.


While I cannot necessarily agree with the stance they have taken, I cannot
disagree.
On certain levels, it makes good business sense, even though it is an
unpopular decision. It is my considered opinion that eventually, the strong survive,
and the weak fall by the wayside.


Hobie has been the proverbial 900 pound gorilla of the catamaran world for
years, and by our very nature, Americans love to be different. Sailors in
particular tend to be rather independent minded people, if we weren't, we'd be
sitting on the couch watching the NFL, or NASCAR with the rest of the masses.


That having been said, Hobie's, whether you wanna talk about the 14, the 16,
the 18, the 20, the Tiger or whatever else may come down the pike are NOT the
current "state of the art" but they ARE good boats, there ARE a lot of them,
and they DO have a strong presence at almost any event or venue you might want
to discuss.


There are certainly other Manufacturer's out there that have built boats that
may be better in one respect or another, and depending on what your
particular "Hot Button"
may be, there may be another boat out there that suits you better. If so,
hurrah for you, go for what makes you happy, but do not begrudge or detract from
those out there that LIKE to sail in a strong "one design class"


People are people, and we are all different, there are those that find a boat
and stick with it no matter what, because they LIKE it. There are those that
are constantly chasing the latest and greatest go fast boat they can afford,
and there are those that just wanna be different and stand out from the crowd,
and not sail what "everybody else is sailing." It is my considered opinion
that it is that diversity that keeps things interesting. Beyond that, God
knows, there are a lot of great sailors out there on any kinda boat you may want to
name, and I wouldn't wanna have to sail against every one of them.


However, if you want to race in a strong "one design" catamaran, almost
anywhere in the country, the Hobie is still the way to go.


Personally, I think there are certainly better ways to accomplish what they
are trying to do, and, if they do not take additional steps to strengthen the
classes, this may not achieve the results they have hoped for. There was a day
when someone said Catamaran, they meant Hobie, There were Hobies in TV Shows,
Movies, and commercials of every sort. Some additional presence in the public
eye would go a long way towards achieving the results "they" desire. But,
alas, publicity costs money, unless you can make it a point of National
discussion, anyone remember the hooha about the "New Coke" ? Unfortunately, I don't
think THIS particular discussion is gonna make the evening news.


This has turned into a rather lengthy diatribe, and so I will share a Final
and parting thought. (for today anyway) IF they are indeed trying to
strengthen the Hobie Class, it seems counterproductive, to in October announce that
they will no longer be building the 17 and 18 class boats, in effect sending them
to the boneyard along with the Hobie 14, and then in January, announce that
if you want to sail in a Hobie Regatta you MUST sail a Hobie. It seems to me
that you cannot have it both ways.
Signed,
Stephen

Steve...I think your looking for a scapegoat. Regardless of how you feel about this policy you have to acknowledge that the class has been deeply divided over this question ever since admitting the open class 10 years ago. Matt Bounds pointed out earlier in this thread that PU was at the helm of NAHCA when the open class was admitted. Lets stick to the merits and not engage in personal attacks...Dan

We're talking about two different Stephens here. I didn't post - through Rick - that note. I do, however, support its author and think that just because PU was on the Board when open classes were allowed doesn't give him some divine right to come on with a heavy hand when he decides that they shouldn't be allowed. When he, and others, allowed an open class they created a situation similar to getting toothpaste back into the tube. There are more gentle ways to achieve similar goals - such as limiting fleet and division board-member positions to Hobie owners. But PU has come on so strong here that he's put a nasty crimp in a sport that is, frankly, an almost totally amateur endeavor geared mostly toward families and those looking for an easy-going weekend. Clearly, Hobie Co needs us way more than we need them. What national company wouldn't trip over themselves for thousands of dedicated, wealthy customers who spend thousands of dollars every year on that company's product. Why didn't PU negotiate more support from the profit-making Hobie Co. in return for more support from the private, non-profit class organization. In his position with IHCA he is responsible for selling us all short. If he was on The Apprentice, Donald Trump would be saying, "You're fired."

When you say that the class has been deeply divided over this subject since open sailing was allowed, I can't really see that. Based on the response from most in this thread, the divisiveness has come from forcing a separation of the classes. Prior to this the few people suffering from allowing open events were those in power at NAHCA and IHCA. In our area, Denver, Hobie didn't suffer. The few Nacras and Prindles that came to Hobie regattas have switched to Hobies without any pressure from us and that's without a dealer in our area for more than a year! Without the open class it's doubtful that these sailors would have come to our events and unless Hobie gets on the ball and gets a dealer going in this area, these events will just get smaller.

My intent is not to place blame, but to urge caution in a new environment for our sport. While the NAHCA and IHCA are fully capable of running day-to-day tasks, they should have called for a membership-wide vote - including detailed input from Hobie Co. and all Division commodores - before enacting such an impactive change. This is not a personal attack but a reckoning of actions taken.

I'm interested in hearing more about the post by kmarshack quoting PU as supposedly implying that members of a fleet that does not comply with the non-hobie rules could be banned from nationals competitions. Anyone else hear or read anything more official about that?

Hobie800,

I've sent both Rich McVeigh and PU e-mails requesting clarification on any proposed sanctions. I've not heard anything definitive. I'll see Lori Mohney (IHCA Vice President) and Ruth Triglia (Hobie Cat Co.) this weekend at the Strictly Sail Show in Chicago.

We'll know more next week.

Matt Bounds

Hi Mary,
Being a 20+ year member of CRAM, I can speak in the club's defense. I feel bad that anyone has come to CRAM and felt the members to be exclusionary. I certainly don't see it. Are the boats these days high tech? Yup. Are they faster? Yup. This doesn't mean that older boats are not welcome or that CRAM would rather only cater to the high tech crowd. We have been trying to get Hobies involved in the club for years - to no avail. We provide great sailing venues, great regatta organization and great parties. All any group needs to do (be that Hobies, A Class, Tornados, etc.) is organize their group and bring them to sail. CRAM will provide separate starts, trophies, etc. How could it be much easier? Now, if you expect me as an F18 sailor to organize the Hobie 16 fleet and get them to come to the regattas, that probably won't happen. I'm interested in my own class like everybody else. It takes someone in the class to organize the class. Division 10 is reorganizing. What better situation than to bring this fledgling group to an established club? The entire Michigan racing scene is there for the asking. Bring your Hobie 16s, 18s, Tigers - heck, even Waves and come race. Get involved in the club. PLEASE INFILTRATE US! Volunteer to do some work. Get to know the folks. You won't regret it.

Roger Cochran
Nacra F18

Roger, I did my best to talk Jeff Rabidoux into getting his fleet into CRAM. It makes the most sense to me. One of his reasons for not doing so was that a lot of the sailors he has assembled to rebuild the Detroit fleet are not interested in racing. They just want to be able to get together locally and sail around.

The most hi-tech out there.
You may even see Mary and I show up with Waves this summer since we sold the motel and will be living at Put-in-Bay for the warm season.
Why the Wave Class has had the highest attendance of any class at most regattas.
Kudos to CRAM
Rick

Matt,

What did you find out at the Chicago show? We all would like to hear something or have "they" clammed up?

Bob

OK, here’s the report from the Strictly Sail Show in Chicago this weekend, as well as our HCA Division 10 meeting on Saturday night:

First the show – WOW! HCA Division 10 had a display with John Bauldry’s Tiger, a projector running Hobie Worlds / Nationals videos and all kinds of info to hand out. Hedlund Marine (the local Hobie dealer) had a huge separate area with a Getaway, Bravo, kayaks and a bunch of monohulls along with lots of apparel and other goodies.

I was there all day Saturday and by the end of the day (8:00 PM), I was hoarse from talking to the hundreds of people that stopped by. Check out the photo – see the crowd in front of the Tiger in the foreground? That was about half the typical number of people that were hanging around at any given time. We had over 100 people interested in joining Hobie Fleets give us their contact information!



Meanwhile, over at the dealer’s area, they sold a bunch of Hobie 16’s – two in one hour Saturday afternoon. While we weren’t trying to sell boats at our booth, we think we’ll be responsible for selling at least 4 Tigers. All in all, an extremely successful outing. It far exceeded our expectations!

As for the HCA Division 10 meeting Saturday night, we had about 35 people from the three most active Hobie Fleets in the Division (276 – Detroit, 519 – Kalamazoo, and 123 – Carlyle, IL). Ruth Triglia from Hobie Cat was there, as were the owners of Hedlund Marine. IHCA Vice President Lori Mohney (a member of Hobie Fleet 519) was there as well.

The focus of the meeting was on fleet building and looking towards the future since that is what is most important to us as a Hobie Class Association Division. The future of Hobie Fleets is not racing, but the social and fun aspects of getting together with people that own Hobie Cats. Kind of like a Corvette Car Club. (OK, maybe it’s a VW Beetle Club, for those of you who still consider us “Slowbies”).

There was some discussion of the “edict” at the meeting but most of us consider it a non-issue. After all, we’re rebuilding HCA Division 10 from scratch. We’ll continue to sail with our X-boat friends at regattas hosted by CRAM, CRAW, OCRA and other sailing associations. We don’t have any plans to host a regatta as a Hobie Division yet, because we’re too geographically dispersed. Maybe next year. We’ll worry about it when the time comes. We have to walk before we can run.

At the conclusion of the meeting, both Ruth and Lori answered questions about a variety of topics, from the “edict” to the decision to stop production of the Hobie 17 and 18. It was a lively discussion, but most people understood that the “edict” is really an administrative change. We’re also looking forward to the support that Hobie Cat Co. has promised (whatever that might end up being). We left the meeting on a high positive note – I haven’t seen so many people geeked about Hobie sailing in a long time.

Everybody agrees that the communication of the “edict” was not handled as well as it could have been. I received a personal apology from Rich McVeigh about that, and I’ve gotten over it. I suggest everybody else just take a deep breath and get over it as well. There are a lot of details to be worked through and the HCA officers are on it. I know people want to know what’s going to happen RIGHT NOW, but they are just going to have to be patient. Nobody that works on this stuff gets paid to do it and we all have commitments (like work) that come before sailing politics.

I, for one, refuse to roll around in the mud with those slinging it at the various players working on this. I refuse to blow this out of proportion like so many have, including, IMHO, the host of this forum (just look at the misleading title of this thread). I will be patient, I will keep my head on straight and look toward the future without judging or second guessing decisions made in the past by others in what they consider to be the best interests of my class. I will make my opinions known and I won’t stamp my feet and cry when I don’t get my way.

It's time to move on.

Matt,
Thanks for the great report and good news from Chicago. Great to see such enthusiasm.
However, the following bothers me quite a bit:


Exactly what is misleading? That is what the Press Releases said.

To quote exactly the letter from Rich, "Specifically, non-Hobie Cat boats will not be able to participate in Hobie class sanctioned regattas."


Rick

That is an accurate representation.



Is a misleading contraction. It makes it seem as if the Hobie Class is excluding all other brands from all events, class sanctioned or otherwise, which is untrue.

Hello Matt or Rich McVeigh

Just curious. Two years ago NAHCA designated regional championship regattas and gave the organizers cash and other bennefits in exchange for Hobie only events. (Basically the same result as restricting clubs to designating regattas as Hobie regattas only if they are strictly hobie class boats)

Did this work and how? Did fleets want the cash at the expense of participation by other boats? Did this strategy increase participation by Hobie racers?

Take Care
Mark Schneider

i dont get it. one design is just that. if other fleets or sailors want to piggyback into a regatta with other boats, then what a gracious race comittee that would be willing to do extra work. certainly not to be expected. however it would be more coolness for the decision to be up to the regatta organizers, theres way too many rules imho on the planet already

Mark

I checked the results of the 2002 and 2003 Spring Fever and Hobie-only mid-winters east and here is what I found.

2003 SF / 2003 MW / 2002SF / 2002MW
H14 / 0 / 0 / 3 / 2
Wave / 0 / 5 / 6 / 0
Getaway /1 / 0 / 6 / 0
H16 / 10 / 8 / 17 / 7
H17 / 5 / 12 / 8 / 11
TheMightyHobie18 / 11 / 1 / 10 / 2
H18m / 0 / 0 / 5 / 0
H20 / 6 / 4 / 14 / 9
Tiger/ 9 / 4 / 7 / 5

Total/ 42 / 34 / 73 / 41

total
open / 23 / 0 / 52 / 0

total/ 65 / 34 / 125 / 41

All Hobie classes in SF were scored as one design, except the single Hobie boats were grouped in an open class so they had someone to race against. It seems to me that the SF had a bigger Hobie class and more boats than the Hobie- only regatta both years. It looks like the non-Hobie regattas had more Hobie boats than the Hobie only regatta. I attended both SF regattas and I had a great time with tons of raffle prizes and tons of great food for three days and a band, and I don't think Hobie gave any support.
It looks to me like open catamaran racing with separate boat classes is better than Hobie only racing. I would like to see the results that the HCA is using and would also like to see the budgets from HCA to see where they are spending our money. Is it not our rights as members? The HCA should publish the budget, the amount of members and active fleets in their newsletter.

I am all for one-design, but I think it can still be done allowing other boats at our regattas. I say 'our' because most regattas I go to in Division 9 are put on by sailors that love sailing and spend their time and sometimes money to put on these regattas without any financial support from Hobie or the HCA. It seems to me if these individuals are going to spend their time and money and use yacht club ties to have a regatta they should be able to invite other boats, as long as they group 5 alike boats to make a Hobie class or what ever. Most of us are not getting paid for this and we are giving Hobie free advertising (web sites,logos on shirts, etc.)and trying to invite new people into sailing. Thanks for asking your members what they want(I never saw a vote on this from the members of HCA)it felt like a slap in the face after reading the newly enforced rules from PU. I guess that is the thanks that we get for putting on regattas for years for HCA. Just my thoughts.

Matt,

I'm confused. Your previous posts have preached staying calm and not to overreact. Now, you're upset about a "misleading contraction"??? Dude, what's with that?

And what happened to finding out about the aforementioned sanctions to fleets or individuals who violate the new rules - per your post from last week?

Mike W.
(a fellow Hobie 17 sailor -- and contraction free)

Hi David, you wrote : "Most of us are not getting paid for this and we are giving Hobie free advertising (web sites,logos on shirts, etc.)".

Sam Evans put me in my place for asking some questions & making my opinion known, so please excuse me for not having US "local knowledge" on this subject. Seems like a lot of folks have a lot to get upset about, so it must be a big deal. The way I see it, Hobie are saying "Guys, we`d like to run our own HOBIE CLASS regattas, and won`t be hosting an open class at these events. We also don`t want the HOBIE logo associated with regattas at which ALL the boats aren`t Hobies."
The problem for some open class racers seems to be they will lose an infrastructure to piggy-back onto, in areas where there aren`t enough of them to sustain their own open class fleet & host their own regattas, and where the Hobie class is strong & is doing all the work. My suggestion here is for these poor souls to abstain from assisting in the organising or running of these events & leave all the work for Hobie sailors to do. It`s what they are asking for. And it sounds like if you sail a TheMightyHobie18, H14 or H17, you are regarded by Hobie as not being part of their family (please correct me if I`m wrong, will they allow these boats at the Hobie only regattas ?) If I`m right, the open class guys should welcome these Hobie outcasts in their fleet and get more open class sailors back on the water.
Which brings me to my next point : You don`t drive a Ford pickup with a sticker on it that says "I`d rather have a Chevy", do you ? So, STOP advertising for Hobie, when asked by outsiders what you sail, don`t say " a catamaran", say " a PRINDLE cat, or a NACRA cat, OR an INTER-20 cat", or whatever you sail. Get the H word out of the general public`s mind, stop doing their advertising for them. It`s what they`re asking you to do. It`s a real pity that one company can start this "us & them" mindset in the world of cat-sailing, rise above it all, hold open-class events & invite Hobie sailors (remember they didn`t decide on this, the Company whose only interest is MAKING MONEY out of cat-sailing did.)
And another thing : When someone hoists a H flag or banner, or even wears an 'H' T-shirt at an open event like Texel where they are exposing their logo to THOUSANDS of sailors of non-H boats at which you are on the organising committee, kindly ask them to remove it, as you would like to avoid action being taken against you by their mother company. If you only do what they ask, they will quietly dissappear into the backwaters of extinction and won`t bother anyone anymore. (And don`t get upset with ME for writing this, it`s only what I`ve understood from the letters they sent out.) I`ve been trying to break down the mindset of "us & them" where I sail, and this news hasn`t made things any easier.

Regards
Steve

OK, first Mark’s question (thanks, Dave for doing the research). It certainly appears from the attendance numbers that the Hobie MWE has not benefited terrifically from Hobie Cat Co. support. An argument could be made that it wouldn’t have existed without it. I don’t know how much support was provided to HMWE – like I said in an earlier post, I’ve been disconnected from the politics in the past couple of years. There are probably a number of factors involved in the disparity between the events, not the least of which is the competition between the two. I know that I would have to choose one over the other – I can’t do both in one year. This year, I’ve chosen the Hobie MWE because I think the competition in the 16’s will be much stiffer – and I need to train for the 16 Worlds in May.

I can’t comment on the quality of either event, because I didn’t have the opportunity to go to any of them. I did hear from people that went to SF that it had gotten too big for it’s venue (we should all have that problem!). They still had a good time.

As for budget / numbers, I can only comment about my tenure as NAHCA Sec./Treas/Chairman (’92-‘99). The income/expense statements were printed every year in the NAHCA News and were distributed to anybody that wanted them at the NAHCA AGM. They’re not secret. I still have the Quicken files on my computer – how else do you think I was able to quote detailed amounts in a previous post? I’ve never seen the financial statements from an event, though, Hobie or otherwise (except ones I’ve done myself). It would be good from an accountability standpoint. Has Nigel ever published the financials from SF?

As for Mike’s questions, I’m not “upset” about the title of the thread. I just pointed out the subtle difference to Rick. I noticed that the headline on the main page was changed almost immediately (thanks, Rick). I also know that Mary likes to “stir the pot.” It makes for impassioned posts and juicy reading. I used to do the same thing when I was the editor of the NAHCA News. Nothing wrong with trying to generate reader interest, as long as you stick to the truth and are evenhanded about it.

As for proposed sanctions, they really haven’t been seriously discussed yet. I know the NAHCA officers are still trying to deal with the immediate fallout from the bomb they dropped. I think they’ve learned a hard lesson about communication, and they’ll be a lot more input into how this whole thing will work over the next year.

Dave

I just wanted to clear up a few things in regard to CRAM and our fleets relationship with them. From day one, when I set out to rebuild Hobie Fleet 276, I worked in conjunction with CRAM. I attended their business meeting in the Fall of 2002 and stated my intentions to the club officers. I walked out of the meeting as the Hobie Fleet Captain. I let them know that we were not competing against them, rather, I was out to find Hobie sailors interested in fleet sailing...without the focus on racing. Sailing and socializing was my concept. The idea was to bring new people into sailing, or people who had left the sport back to it. My belief has always been that many folks are intimidated by the whole idea of racing and others just can't find the time to take full weeknds away from home. Single day fun sail events have a place, a niche if you will.

As a Hobie sailor from the past, I admit my loyalty to the brand. I startd the fleet in Detroit because I believe that the Hobie is plentiful on the used market, and someone could get one with a trailer for a small investment. That allows new sailors to get into the one-design side of the sport without taking a risk that they won't like it and they would be stuck with an expensive boat to sell.

The small part of our fleet that hoose to take part in racing, do participate in CRAM events. CRAM has the inferstructure for racing...with some of the best venues in the state of Michigan. I promoted the heck out of Catfight last year, and nearly a third of the 75 boats that turned out were Hobies. I understand that the prior year, there were 3 Hobies. I think that's pretty good support from my end.

It is important for people to understand that our core group, the racers within our fleet, choose to race Hobie events that take place in Division 16. This is not because we are boycotting CRAM events, nor does the HCA urge us not to attend their regattas. We just choose to race one design against some of the best competition in this country. I would rather go up against 20 - 30 experienced Hobie 16 sailors, in A and B fleets, than to race a much smaller group of boats, with less experienced racers, that I could gather for the typical weekend CRAM event.

The disparaging comments that have been made against CRAM, were based on situations in the past. I have talked about that with the other CRAM officers and its not an issue any longer. Last year was great. Many of our fleet members particpated in events other than Catfight and no one had anything bad to say about how they were treated.

We will continue to participate in CRAM events and as some of our fleet members become more comfortable with the race course, they will probably join us as well. I look forward to the coming season and I know that all the CRAM members who really know me, support my efforts. The growth of the sport that I will bring through my efforts will do nothing but grow the numbers at certain CRAM events.

Looking forward to the season!

Jeff

Matt, sorry, but Rick did NOT change the headline on the story on our home page. That's the original headline he put there. And the headline he put on his own post about all this on the forum also would meet your criteria. So I guess I am the only bad guy. At least I said "bans all non-Hobies from events" rather than "bans non-Hobies from all events." I just thought it was self-evident that if NAHCA was banning non-Hobies from events it meant NAHCA events, because what else would NAHCA have control over?

This is really silly. And somehow, I don't think I am the one stirring the pot here. That would be the people who made the decision and made the announcements. Actually, I think much of the input that has been given on this forum by many people may be helpful to both NAHCA and to the Hobie Cat Company in further developing this new policy -- or should I correctly say, "revocation of the old policy which supplanted the original policy."

So.....

Now might be a great opportunity for the forgotten 14 sailors to branch out on their own and form their own class association. Take off the "H" on the sails. Metal and comptips racing together. Sqtop mains with a 150lbs weight limit! Seems to me it's a good time for 14 sailors to consider this in the US; a class of their own with no HCA involvement!!! I know of one cat-friendly YC that would aid in an annual event(s).

IMHO.

Bob

Mary,

Sorry, I could have sworn Rick changed the headline. I'm getting old and my memory's not what it used to be.

Bob,

You mean something like this?


No matter how you dress it up, it's still a Beetle, er Hobie.

(Dolls not included)

BTW, where were all the 14's at Rehoboth?

After reading Dleonards post, it sounds to me like Hobie is organizing a "union".

Rehobeth? Oh, all metal mast 14s not allowed. NE USA is full of boats like that but not allowed to race under 'current' policy(rules). If that were to change....

I like the Beetle!!! It's still a beetle but a better one.

Bob

Let's start a Formula 14 class. Hey Wouter, want to jump in on this one???

There are so many people complaining just because they like to complain.
To all you Hobie haters out there, why do you give a [censored]?
Go your own way!

Matt

Thanks for the info on the NAHCA. I believe Nigel volunteered to host the Mid Winters East and the NAHCA said he could if it was Hobie only and I think he declined. I believe they then offered to pay Key sailing (a Hobie/Preformance Dealer) to host it.

As far as the financials from SF I don't believe it is a Nahca event and does not have members. The event is put on by Nigel and his friends that love sailing and racing.

I think you should consider coming to SF instead of MWE just because it is closer and cheaper than going to FL. for you and should have just as competive of a H16 class.

I have been a member of NAHCA since 1999(I think) and I do not remember ever seeing a Budget or a vote ballot in a NAHCA news letter.

Hobiezealot

I don't hate Hobies I have owned five of them, I just don't agree with the new NAHCA policy and that as members we don't have a say. I also believe in one design racing and think that both can be sailed at the same event. Look at Key west race week they had 3000 sailors and a lot of different classes of different brands of boats. It looked to me like there was a lot of one design racing.

I also posted my name unlike you

Hello Bob,

That's sort of what the Sea Sprays have done. These guys have weights down in the A-cat range, mylar sails, carbon blades, etc...and they are embarrassingly fast. And the costs involved are very reasonable because it's all about resurrecting old boats.

See http://home.earthlink.net/~soapysails/

Dave,
Dave,
Nicely stated.
Hey, I tried to buy a Tiger today, but your crew(mike) sold it out from under me! JK
See you at SF and hopefully sooner!

dave mosley

Zealot, You haven't listened! Many of those expressing concern, and disapproval for the HCA decision are people that LOVE Hobies and one design racing. Many have simply evolved beyond the boats being offered by Hobie. They are still very active in their fleets, and divisions. I believe I am a true Hobie Devotee. I wasn't looking to meet people to sail with when I stumbled onto a fleet funsail. I was just curious about seeing so many cats together. The people that welcomed me, and later instructed, and befriended me, are what got me hooked on The Hobie Life. But you don't have to sail a Hobie to live it! Many of those people have been fleet officers for years! Without their energy many events would not have happened! I have not raced, though I still hope to. I'm not into it for the competition. I don't see anything wrong with competing in sail boat races, in fact I really enjoy following some of my friends. I use the word friends loosely, because I don't know many of them that well,(Rick Bliss, Barry Moore, Chris and Nate T.) but I do know what I've seen of their work for the sport of cat sailing. People like Rick, Barry, John Smith, and MANY others have earned my respect, not merely by being great racers, but by what they've given to grow the sport we all love. Does anyone have the gall to begrudge Rick White for sailing a Taipan? If they do they must have gotten hold of some of the Brown Acid from Woodstock! Few if any have done more than Rick and Mary for promoting the Hobie Life, and the sport of Cat sailing! I don't agree with Rick's politics, but I will defend him and Mary anytime as far as their integrity in this sport! I only know Jake Kohl(?), and Dave Moseley from reading their posts. Niether sails Hobies now, but I know I wish I had time to meet, and sail with them! I could rant all night because I am seriuosly righteous about the cult of Cat Sailing. I am pretty righteous about Hobies too! Some of the best times of my life have been sailing on Hobie 16s. Nothing I'd rather be on in 25 to 30 mph winds, and six foot seas! Oh, and while I'm preaching, people who expect respect here, post their names. Brian McCarter, H17, Fleet 448, Div. 12

>>Let's start a Formula 14 class. Hey Wouter, want to jump in on this one???

You'll be amazed how closed we got to that one.

Maybe later,

Wouter

Dave,

Sorry, plans have already been made, plane tickets bought, etc. For me, time is the issue. I just don't have that much vacation time available from work - and my wife is already PO'ed that all my vacation time goes to sailing.

I am counting the days until I can see the ground again. Right now it's under about a foot of the white stuff.

Matt

Brian,
Zealot, and many others, doesn't understand the difference between liking H-boats and liking IHCA/NAHCA/HCA.
Many of us H-boat owners like our boats, but don't like what has happened.
Personally, I started as a Nacra sailor and moved to the H-17 because of the big fleets they had at LOCAL regattas and the people were great.
Most H-boat owners don't belong to NAHCA. Even ones that belong to local fleets and race locally.
Most H-boat owners don't go to NAs or Mid-winters, so why join NAHCA?
Most H-boat owners, that don't belong to NAHCA, don't know it exists.
Most H-boat owners, that don't belong to NAHCA, have never heard of the "H Way of Life".

Most NAHCA members don't have a clue how it is run or what it is doing.
Most NAHCA members don't know that NAHCA is under the jackboot of IHCA.

And most importantly, the IHCA and NAHCA royalty don't care what the membership and the rest of the world thinks.
SIEG HEIL, MEIN FURHER!!!

All NAHCA needs to do to destroy H-Boat racing is to bring back the points system.
Segregate us into "cans" and "can'ts".

Sam Evans, acting Commodore, H-Fleet 97

In reply to Bob:
"Let's start a Formula 14 class"

I will take a stab at it.

First as I learned in playing with my wife's wave, small boats are cheap to experiment with. Make it an experimenter's class.

Second, limit it so anybody can right one, make light skippers (women) even, and the boats still fun when the wind is 20+ kts

Third, since there are unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in an area make the rules loose enough that they can be a real pain to the bigger boats when the wind is light or strong.

Last and most important, don't complicate it.


______________________________________________________________________________
Rules

Anyone can claim to race under "14" rule, anyone can protest them. Obvious violators subject to public humiliation


Max length (excluding rudders) 14 ft
max waterline width 8.5 ft
Max mast length TBD (22-24ft?) ft (or restrict sail luff length)
Max main sail area excluding mast 120 ft2 per ISAF
optional- max other sail area 150 ft2( will change Portsmouth number)
Sail area to be written on sail by sailmaker or measurer if sail does not conform to a one design class


wings may be used on existing boats that are narrower than 8.5 ft
max width = waterline width + 2*(8.5 -waterline width)

(since the boats will work best with light crew this next part may be worthless)
light skipper width = max width +(160x8.5/skipper weight-8.5)
any skipper caught cheating on light skipper width may exonerate themselves by sailing the next regatta with no tiller extension)

Class legal Prindle 15, Supercat 15, any aquacat, and ? can race under 14 rule. Non class legal sails must conform to max sail area

Note to rules: These rules are wbeing written to make having fun easier and to get more boats on the water. The were rules written when all boats involved are old designs or something cobbled together in a garage, if this changes the rules may have to be revised
_____________________________________________________________________________


In case you are wondering why I bothered with this?

It started when I bought some old catamaran books and discovered there used to be a lot of ~14ft catamarans, some of which looked fast. I started wondering what happened to them.

Now I am building a 14ft tunnelhull/catamaran for the Wed Night Races in Houston.

Normally I try to refrain from responding to Trolls in a forum, but your post annoyed me, Sam.


That’s basically true. With something like 120,000 boats built, NAHCA membership represents less than 1% of Hobie owners. I would wager the same percentage of Sunfish and Laser owners belong to their class associations. So what’s your point?


First part true, but there’s a lot of other reasons to be a member of the class association. Newsletter, Guest Expert Programs, standardized racing rules, youth programs, regatta support (forms, stickers SI’s, etc). There’s a lot more to the NAHCA than the high level events. If you’ve never taken advantage of the services offered, then it’s your own fault.


Unfortunately, that’s true. I’d like to change that. We had a great field trip to Chicago this past weekend that helped spread the word. Like I said in a previous post, we signed up over 100 new fleet members at the Strictly Sail Show.


If that’s true, then it’s their own damn fault for not finding out. All you have to do is go to NAHCA Homepage and everything’s there – officers, bylaws, etc. You want we should spoon-feed you this stuff? You want to make a change? Get involved – and I don’t mean spouting off in a forum.


Now that is just silly. That’s like saying US Sailing is under the jackboot of the ISAF. We’re all part of the same organization (IHCA).


Now this is where you pissed me off. The NAHCA officers are long-time active racers and go to a lot of regattas every year. They listen to what people say and make their own decisions based on what they hear. I’ve known Rich McVeigh for at least 15-20 years and you couldn’t ask for a more intelligent, considerate, knowledgeable person to head up the NAHCA. Paul Ulibarri may not be the best diplomat, but he has done more for this class in the past 35 years than you can ever imagine. You’re damn right he’s demanding and uncompromising. He also is arguably the best catamaran PRO in the world. Being at the top means that you sometimes have to make unpopular decisions.

You’ve insulted a lot of people, Mr. Evans, right down to my Jewish wife and crew.

Now take your trolling comments and go over -----------> (to the old forum)

I’m done with this thread.

I need more details. Will the clinic be available at only NAHCA sactioned events? In other words, if our regatta is listed as an offical Division race, but is an invitational (open) event, will a women's clinic still qualify for W.O.W.?

Is there a teaching script? I organized a women's clinic, women's series and championship 15 years ago in Atlanta and noticed that experienced skippers often instructed at a level that was WAY above the novices.

Cyndi Bohannon
Division VI, Fleet 8

People on this forum need to get informed about what HCA does and doesn't do. Engage brain before engaging mouth. Way to go Matt...you calculated a firing solution, returned fire and hit the target on the first shot.

Matt, I want to thank you for confirming six of my seven statements.

You forgot to mention that Guest Expert programs are few and far between and you don't have to be a NAHCA member to attend.
You don't have to be a NAHCA member to attend a "Fast & Fun".
NAHCA does not publish Racing Rules on the website, of course you have to know about it first. It publishes Sailing Instructions.
We all are required to use the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing(RRS).
"Regatta support" consists of an MS Word file, "Scoring Sheet" and SI's that we can download and print out and a contact so you can BUY course stickers.
(I was on the Race Committee at the 2003 Tiger/20 NA's and we didn't need or use ANY NAHCA materials)

What is "Silly" about it? My point in this post is that NAHCA members know very little about how NAHCA is run. Most of them naievely assume that the NORTH AMERICAN H-Cat Association is actually run by and for NORTH AMERICANS.

The "Royals" took away the voting rights of individual members several years ago.
The way Rich McVeigh was "elected" hardly inspires confidence in the system.
Class rule change proposals mysteriously appear and are approved by somebody, somewhere at their own schedule.
Look how many Tiger changes have been made and how fast they were approved.

There has been testimony from several EU sailors that major EU H-boat Championships are held at regattas with X-Boats in violation of the PU edict.
Why did the edict not include the EU? Aus? the World?
Why did it take THREE MONTHS for the two letters to get from Rich McVeigh to the members?
They intentionally waited until now in order to screw up our 2004 scheduling.

"They listen to what people say and make their own decisions based on what they hear."
EXACTLY! They talk to a small group and hand down edicts. They can base their decisions on whatever they want.

"Not the best diplomat", "demanding and uncompromising", that is a pretty good description of someone who thinks he is "royalty".
You are right about one thing, you will definitly get an argument from alot of people about who is the best PRO.


If you know anyone working the 2004 Tiger/20/17 NA's, get them to tell you why PU refused to allow the H-18's to join.

P.S. Save the "Oh I am offended" religious guilt for someone who cares.

Monsterkitty,
NAHCA has banned Open Class racing from NAHCA/Division/Fleet events.
If you allow an Open Class at your event it will not be NAHCA sanctioned.
I can't imagine NAHCA allowing W.O.W. or Guest Expert at any non-NAHCA events.

Tigerboy,
I am glad you agree with me too, but not just people on this forum.
AS I SAID, the majority of H-boat owners and NAHCA members are poorly informed.
Do you have a helpful solution or is there nothing in your brain to engage.

P.S. Anons should stay on the old forum.

You really don't get it, do you, Sam?

Tigerboy is John Bauldry. He was supporting my position, not yours - he called me last night to thank me for putting you in your place.

If you spent more time working on building Fleet 97 (Acting Commodore? What the hell is that - where you pretend to be in charge?), instead of mouthing off and displaying your ignorance in at least three different Internet forums, maybe you'd have time to fix the dead link to Fleet 97's website. (Now there's a novel concept! Actually doing something for your fleet!)

I've been sailing and racing Hobies for 31 years. I grew up in Division 9 and sailed at venues from the Chesapeake down to Wrightsville Beach. I went to college in Division 10, lived in Division 12 for three years, then moved back to Division 10 where I've been since 1985. I've been involved with the Hobie Class Association for 20+ years. I've built friendships all over the world because of Hobie Class Racing. I consider it one the greatest positive influences on my life.

What have you done, Sam? Zip, Nada, Zilch as far as I can tell. Unless you count spreading uninformed, viscious commentary. Please sell your 17 and go back to your precious Nacra. I'm ashamed to sail in the same class as you.

Now, like I said, I'm done with this thread.

Post deleted by Mary

and his posts, he makes good points and the NAHCA would do itself a disservice to ignore them. I think you know if you continue down the path you are on you will alienate a large porting of your membership. If this is your goal, then more power to you.

Regards,
David Ingram

Sorry, Mary. I let him punch my buttons, and unfortunately, I couldn't resist the temptation to roll in the mud with him.

My apologies to anyone who takes offense at my comments.

Feel free to delete my last post.

Matt,
You are free to edit or delete your own post for up to six hours after you place it. If I were you, I would just remove that "final thought." It was one thought too many, and we have all been guilty of that at one time or another.

Done. At least I have the courtesy to acknowledge when I've stepped over the line, apologize and take advantage of the opportunity to correct my indiscretion.

My wife, who has Holocaust surviors in her family, took great offense at Sam's equating NAHCA "Royalty" with Hilter. That's not funny.

Okay, just so everyone knows what is going on, Matt said something that he regretted. I posted a response. He then removed his statement. And I then removed my response.

And Matt is right about Sam being out of line with his Hitler analogy. I should have chastised him, too.

Sam,

Just to clarify some of the things you've posted. People should get informed about what HCA does or doesn't do by checking out nahca.org [color:"blue"] [/color] or hobieclass.com [color:"blue"] [/color] or hobiecat.com/community [color:"blue"] [/color] or geocities.com/hobietigerpages/news [color:"blue"] [/color] . You've made some statements that have no factual basis...they are just emotional responses. The issue of Hobie going back to strict one design class racing is emotional for all involved. Some will lose out while others will gain. It's the typical "can't please everyone" scenario. It's time to move forward.

Regarding Tiger changes...I suspect you do not own or sail an F18 compliant boat. Proposed Tiger/F18 changes are sent to owners via email for inputs and feedback. Some are enacted and others are rejected. The changes are part of the constantly evolving F18 class and are necessary to keep the Tiger at the cutting edge. Hobie is fully supportive of F18 racing around the world. Even Doug Skidmore, President of Hobie Cat, was pulling marks with Jack Young of Performance Catamarans at the NAF18 NA's in Pensacola last October.

Did you know that the HCA financially supports the Worlds, Continentals and regional championships (MWE, MWW, Mid Americas, NE Champs and NW Champs) for ALL Hobie classes? That this support tickles down to the weekend divisional regattas? That they support GEP, WOW and Fast'n'Fun? Have you ever attended a AGM? Have you ever cast a ballot on class motions to your fleet commodore who takes results to the division chairperson who represents YOU at the AGM for a council vote? Have you ever been an elected division chairperson or a member of the NA executive council or International executive council? I suspect not. This is the class infrastructure. It's not much different than the US Congress or Senate structure. The procedures are basically the same. All Hobie owners should get involved...it's YOUR class. Don't sit on the sidelines and complain. Let your voice be heard where it counts. Not on a forum.

Did you know of the grass roots effort by class members to resurrect production of the H17? That it will probably succeed on a limited basis?

I've been sailing and racing Hobies (16,17,18,20 and Tiger) all over the world for 28 years. I've experienced the golden years and the decline. Sailing Hobies has been a huge part of my life and will continue to do so. But I know one thing...I have TOO MUCH FUN sailing my boat and I will keep sailing it until they bury me. I've voiced my opinions and I'm done posting on forums.

Now if this damn snow will just melt.

John Bauldry
NAHCA Treasurer 2001-2003
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI

Except in the case of the HCA,the general membership can not elect its officers.

No disrespect to you John , just pointing out an issue with the current class infrastructure.

Tracie

Tracie,

I was just referring to how issues are voted upon. Kind of how the electorate get congressmen/senators to vote on important issues before they become law. Not who elects officials. No worries...sorry for not clarifying.

JB

John,
The HCA has been very good as far as getting the opinions of and voting of issue with the Tigers.
Any Tiger owner/sailor should appreciate that. I know I do.

Tracie

As emotions come into play and people feel that the rug has been pulled out from under them, you need to get back to the facts and what really happened here and not feel sorry for the sport of Cat sailing.

This could be a new beginning for open class organizations as well as those of us that prefer to race in a very strict One-design environment. The common goal that many do not recognize is that there is a difference between open class sailing and Hobie Class One-design sailing. Many of you will argue the term One-design sailing, my definition of One-design is; Large fleets, all sailing on the same type and size of boats under strict class rules. Open class often has rules, but typically is a group of many different boats. Many of them do not comply within their own class rules. F18 is a fantastic attempt at creating a One-design 18-foot class and I support all of their efforts but the only way it will be successful is the sailors must keep their boats within the F18 rules. When I raced in Europe at Texel I was very impressed with the F18 and F20 measuring, weighing etc. that went on. It gave me a great feeling of equality. However this is still a different animal with a wider approach on class rules then Hobie Class racing and it should also stand-alone and hopefully be successful.

The Hobie class remains strong world wide because of the relationship between the class, its members, the rules committee and most importantly the manufacture for continuing to spit out boats that could easily be updated instead they have built boats for over 25 years that comply within the class rules. Yes there have been small upgrades and rule changes yet most have been well thought out and designed to have a minimal impact on the racers pocket book.

Open sailing is another world and it is a good world just different than what the Hobie class has always stood for. In my career I have found that the most enjoyable racing is a large fleet all on identical boats racing with friends. This is my personal preference but at the same time I completely understand the desire to race open class boats. In my world we could all be in bathtubs and it would be great as long as they were all the same brand of tub.

As I read these threads many people have more then one boat. I believe that another way to consider this is that some people may show up to a Hobie regatta with their Hobie 16 and add to the numbers of that fleet to create a better one design racing fleet and that same person may bring their Taipan to the open class regatta the following weekend to race in it as well. It has always been the belief of my father, Hobie, and Hobie Cat racing that a strict one-design program is the root of the success of the Hobie Class. The more boats of the same class and size equals better racing. Hobie Cat racing has never swayed from this thought process that is why many of us still love to sail that VW bug (Hobie 16) around the course with a whole fleet of bugs to race against.

I was not involved in the recent meetings to make this decision, nor do I know where it will go from here. This is what I do know or at least this is my personal opinion on what the thought process is.

1. In an effort to rebuild Hobie One-design racing, the HCA (NAHCA) and IHCA with the support of the Hobie Cat Company decided to go back to their roots and grow their own classes as was done successfully through the 70’S and 80’S by only allowing class legal Hobie Cats to race at their sanctioned events. Note “class legal” as this does not mean all Hobie’s only those that have maintained their boats within the class rules.

2. The HCA (NAHCA), IHCA and the Hobie Cat Company are not trying to hurt open cat sailing. They only want to see open class, F18 class and any other catamaran sailing or racing thrive while standing on it’s own and functioning under the open class formats.

3. The thought process behind this was not a mandate from Hobie Cat Co. It has been discussed amongst the HCA (NAHCA), Hobie Cat and the IHCA for the past 10 years as to whether or not allowing X boats to race at sanctioned Hobie events is good or bad for the size and quality of racing for the Hobie class. After reviewing the past 10 years, the majority of the HCA (NAHCA) and its active vocal members concluded that the X boats were not increasing one design racing. If anything, they were fragmenting the existing Hobie classes.

4. The Hobie Cat Co. can also be blamed for fragmenting its own classes by introducing so many different Hobie boats. Economically, it was imperative for the Hobie Cat Co. to stay in business to cater to the beginner and family market of cat sailing. They have introduced a range of non-racing cats that have brought many people to the sport of cat sailing. They now feel it would be good to focus on certain boats for racing and assist to grow these fleets while still selling recreational boats.

5. The Hobie Cat Co. was slow to get into the high performance boat market and certainly missed a beat in the days of the Prindle 19 and the Nacras. They now have caught up and currently build a solid range of boats to appeal to all types of competitors. The H16 is a fantastic inexpensive simple race boat that appeals to both the advanced sailor and the beginner sailor. The H17 is a great single-handed boat, the H20 is a great boat for the high performance non-spinnaker boat that has all the bells and whistles of the Tiger or even a Tornado. The Tiger is a fantastic boat that is fast fun raced with spinnaker and manufactured F18 legal and has won a few F18 worlds. There are pockets of TheMightyHobie18’s and even H14’s still racing and they are also good boats and I do not think anybody wants to discourage them from racing but focusing on fewer boats will create bigger fleets.

6. The decision of the HCA (NAHCA) is not a DIG on cat sailing. It is an effort to get more focus on the boats they represent with hopes to have larger starts with their primary racing boats; the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H Tiger, H20 while still allowing all other class legal Hobie's to race with hopes of them switching into the focused classes. At the same time hoping that maybe some of the open guys will consider dragging out their old Hobie or purchasing a used or new Hobie in addition to their open boat and joining in with this group.

7. There is an amazing amount of great people that have been involved over the years in the HCA (NAHCA) and IHCA and they deserve all of the respect in the world for keeping cat sailing alive. Most of these people are one design, same boat, and large fleet type of people and are part of Hobie racing because that is the format they prefer. I personally want to thank each and every one of them for preserving Hobie class sailing and allowing me to share this with my son and family. Hobie sailing has been my life for 35 years I was six when my father built the Hobie 14. This allowed me the opportunity to compete in a great sport and to meet fantastic people around the world with common interests.

8. For those of you that have never been to a Hobie Worlds or even a Continentals it is very hard for you to have a complete understanding of the big picture. With out the support of the regions around the world, the manufactures and the class members these events would not take place. These events are instrumental in giving people something to strive for and once you have participated in a Hobie Worlds, I’m sure you will be coming back for more. From the Thursday night fleet races, to weekend points regatta, the continentals and then a worlds, these events are all equally important and are part of the food chain that makes the Hobie class successful. The Hobie class has a ton of things to manage just with our own fleets and goals give them a chance.

Many of you that don’t know me probably think that I’m just another Hobie Cat Company puppet. On the contrary, my father Hobie sold the boat business in 1976 and my family receives no income from boat sales. My family’s attachment to the Hobie brand is primarily in the Surfboard industry, which does not have a lot of crossover with sailing. My family’s attachment to Cat Sailing is for the love of the sport!
I still compete in events Domestically and Internationally, I have raced in the last three Tiger Worlds with as many as 85 Tigers on the starting line (talk about fun), and I have raced F20 on a Hobie Fox in around Texel. I will be racing at the Hobie 16 worlds with my 11 year old son as crew (his first worlds) in a 200+ competitors round robin series with 56 brand new Hobie 16’s on the line in Cancun, I currently race a Tiger on the West Coast with currently 16 tigers on the line at a weekend Hobie regatta. I have done many guest expert seminars, campaigned a Tornado in 1984 and finished third in the US Olympic trials. I have sailed Stiletto nationals, many monohull events, competed in the Pro-series sailing series on a Hobie 21 and a formula 40 also raced in the Hogs Breath 1000 twice etc. etc. Most of my sailing I have paid for out of my own pocket. I was the Executive Director for the Hobie Class in the late 80’s early 90’s. I was involved with the NAHCA when they moved to allow X boats and I currently sit on the IHCA rules committee. In my position on the rules committee the manufactures and the additional regional members know that I will always favor the class over the manufactures and I’m one for slow moderate rule changes that keep our Hobie boats as equal as possible. I will always support the class and strict one-design rules as these rules are what make our class strong. I know all of the players involved personally and I know how hard these people work to maintain the HCA (NAHCA).

For those of you that don’t understand the bigger picture HCA, IHCA and the rest of the regions around the world just go to hobieworlds.com and look at the list of competitors competing at the worlds on Hobie 16’s.

I usually do not like to participate in this kind of Forum, as I know much of what I have said here will be taken out of context and used against the class, the Hobie manufactures and probably me. If you do not hear from me again on this subject please realize I’ve said my peace and I do not intend to compete in a battle of words, I only want to sail amongst friends on equal equipment.

Sincerely
Jeff Alter

Matt, you are funny.
You didn't like the content of what I said, so you had to reply, but you ended up agreeing with SIX of my SEVEN statements and the realization of that has made you even madder.
The same thing happened to John Bauldry.
YOU BOTH AGREED WITH ME AND IT IS BURNING YOU UP!

Now, instead of trying to prove my statements wrong, you have resorted to personality assasination.
Make the person seem bad therefore what they say is bad.

I am "Acting Commodore" of Fleet 97 because I can't get any of the other members(the 20 year people) to take the job.
I can't get them to return their membership or election ballots.
I can't get them to volunteer for any Fleet positions.
I am not the webmaster.

What does your 31 years have to do with my statements? You agreed with me, remember?
Oh I see! You are trying to counteract my factual statements of "bad things" with your unrelated "good things".
Sorry, no points for that.

Since when is "having done something" a requirement for stating facts or voicing an opinion?
How is it "uninformed, viscious commentary" when the two of you AGREED WITH ME?


David,
Exactly what I was saying, people are uninformed, they need to get informed. Finally a constructive, informative statement.
Too bad Matt chose to attack me instead of helping the other sailors.

Which statements have "no factual basis"?

RE: Rule changes
My point is that rule change proposals for the Tiger quickly appeared, were discussed and rapidly approved, whereas the few rule changes for the H-14/16 are on a two year schedule.
SOMEBODY decided that the Tiger should take priority and too bad for the H14/16 racers.
Members are requested to email their comments to IHCA and maybe, just maybe, they will receive consideration.

I said nothing about H-Corp./NAHCA/IHCA support of the NAF18 or iF18 Class.
But I am curious how they can support an event with many X-Boats in it and not violate the edict.

I know that H-Corp.NAHCA/IHCA supports the big events. You forgot to mention that they even provide boats at some of them.
But I know that there has NEVER BEEN ANY trickle down to Division 9 weekend regattas, unless you are referring to that box of catalogs, koozies and keychains that H-Corp. donates.

RE: H-17
I am well informed about that effort. I know the person who started it, I have been copied on emails and we have a forum dedicated to it on the Division 9 Forums.

And like Matt, your many years of fun and friends does not dispute my commentary on the present state of informed participation.

If the two of you have worked so hard, for so long, why are so many people uninformed and uninvolved?
Do you accept responsibility for the failures or is it someone else?
Is it my fault because I point it out?
How do you fix a problem if all you want to do is complain when someone points it out.

You can keep shooting at the messenger, but that will never kill a true message.

I must have had way too much coffee this AM.

Truce, OK?

I can't say anything more than what Jeff Alter already has on the "edict," therefore I have some constructive suggestions:



You're expressing a lot of the same frustrations that we've had at the top levels of the NAHCA for years. Let's face it, there's less than 1% of the sailors out there that care enough to put in the time (even to vote) to help administer the sport.

But I digress - Sam, you're in the same position that my own fleet was in. Nobody volunteered to do anything anymore, so it just kind of went away.

It took the energy of only one person, Jeff Rabidoux, to get us started again. I suggest you drop the "Acting" prefix from your title. Take the initiative. Be the webmaster. (If you know how to post in this forum, you can create a website.) Promote the fleet. Set realistic goals, and concentrate on fun events, not racing.

We (Fleet 276) hooked up with a local sailing club who gave us a start at their Wed. night races. We were out with the J-24's and J-35's, and we had a great time. So what if there were only 5 Hobies on the line (a few 16's, a 20, an 18SX, and my 17). Most of the 16's were ancient and didn't have Comp-tips. Afterward, we'd retire to the club for burgers & beer. It was like a bowling league for Hobies!

Jeff R. put together a Fleet building PowerPoint presentation for our Division 10 meeting last weekend. It's got a lot of great ideas for finding and keeping fleet members. I'm sure he'd be willing to send it to you on CD. The presentation assumes you're starting from scratch, which it sounds like you are.

Jeff, I know you're monitoring this thread - can you contact Sam & arrange to get him the CD?

I have a soft spot for Fleet 97 - there's a guy named Bob Hall who used to be active in Raleigh fleet. His father and mine bought 2 Hobie 16's at the Richmond boat show in early 1973 and started us both down this long, strange trip.

Good luck, Sam.

Matt Bounds
Hobie Fleet 221 (Richmond, VA)
Hobie Fleet 231 (southern Maine)
Hobie Fleet 276 (Detroit, MI)

Don't Fear the Speed, Fear the Addiction!

you a start isn't it. To bad the Hobie edict discourages you from returning the favor.

Dave

Matt


That is why I think it is wrong for HCA to say we can't sail with other open boats in seperate classes. That club helped the Hobies out and the way you say thanks is will you put on a regatta for the Hobies only.

I would first like to thank Rick and Mary for providing this forum, and then to thank all the participants. Sam you are a Champion for our sport! Jeff, and Matt, my thanks to you as well. I think maybe we are getting somewhere! Brian McCarter, H17, Fleet 448

Jeff Alter

Thanks for writing and I enjoyed your post.

My first boat was a H16 and I like one design racing and have been to several nationals, but not any world events.
I do disagee with the HCA's new policyes and think that there could be a better way to increase the Hobie fleets.
I guess that I am not the only one by looking at the amount of post on this subject. With a change in the rules this big I think that the HCA members should be able to vote. It has come to my attention that the members gave up there right to vote in 2001. I was a member in 2001 and I never voted or even read anything about a vote of members giving up there rights. Several people have tryed to find out about this and checked with some HCA officers with no results (if any one has a copy of the NAHCA or the results please let us know). It appears that the HCA is working outside the bylaws.Where does all the membership money go,nationals, worlds,newsletters,ect? I for one can't remember Division 9 ever getting any. Most of the news letters I get come after the event is over and I have already read it on line (waste of money).

As far as Hobie Cat Co., thanks to your dad fun coming up with such a great idea. You talked about racing classes H17 and TheMightyHobie18,how long to you think they will last with out any more being made ( some friend sails on your TheMightyHobie18 and likes it and says I want to get one of these oh you can't they quit making them in 2003). The H16 is a fun boat but some just want more and are to heavy to compete.The H20 is loseing out to the Tiger and Nacra 20. The Fox and FX1 are just bad designs and had poor marketing on Hobies part.

Most of the fleets in Division 9 are small and only exist on paper. The same people every year after year put on there own local regatta with very little help because they love sailing. Most are held at sail clubs and all muiltihuls are welcome. We had our last Regatta about three years ago in Wilmington NC. I put it on for three years with little help except for some other division 9 members. Have not had a fleet meeting in 7 or 8 years(no members). I got a list form the local Hobie dealer(closed about a year ago) and sent out an email to all the boat owners, I did not even get one response. The division 9 regattas seem to be getting a little more boats, but it looks like the HCA is really hurting our us.

Dave & Dave,

We don't violate the edict by sailing with the mono club. It's not an HCA sanctioned event. We exist as a Hobie Fleet separate and apart from them. They just give us a start. We have had other events (fun sails) that didn't involve them at all. You guys should check out our website Detroit Hobie Fleet 276 to see what we did last summer. BTW, our website was put together by a fleet member that taught himself web design by doing the fleet website.

Matt

Hello Matt

Can a Hobie fleet keep their name and run regattas: EG Hobie Fleet XX chooses to sponsor and run all non sanctioned regattas? Can they use an H for a Hobie class flag for a Hobie class start?

If the issue simply distills down to "Is the same old same old regatta called a Hobie Points regatta" .... Well it will start to diminish as an issue...

If you want to go racing and the regatta of the week is not called a points regatta... would you cut your nose to spite your face?

Thanks
Mark

I really don't know, Mark. I expect there will be some clarification eventually. Don't forget that the flying "H" logo and "Hobie Cat" name are trademarks and are subject to use with permission from the Hobie Cat Company and the Alter family (not the HCA). They've been pretty free with their permission in the past. I can't comment on the future.

When we got our start from the mono club, they used a number pennant to designate our class start, just like they did for the other classes. It was no big deal - it just cost them 5 extra minutes and 3 extra bangs out of the propane cannon. We were out for fun and you could hardly call what we did "racing." Half the boats weren't even class legal.

I think problems will arise when you want to use the strict one-design rules, the HCA standard sailing instructions, HCA standard courses, etc. It also is a problem when "Hobie Fleet XX" or "HCA Division XX" is the Organizing Authority on the Notice of Race. That, to me, smells like a HCA sanctioned event, and would fall under the auspices of the edict.

I'm speculating here, though. Like I said, we all expect some logistical clairification in the next couple of months from the HCA.

Matt

What do you mean about the members giving up their right to vote?

Hi Matt

I was directed to the Hobie Div 9 web site where these kinds of questions were answered by Rich McVeigh.

My understanding is No... you can't use your Hobie Fleet name for these events.

Take Care
Mark

Mary

I guess that only HCA officers and division chairs can vote and elect officers. I have been a member for the last 7 years and have never seen a ballot in a HAHCA news letter. I did not see an announcement of the last meeting the HCA had in Atlanta according to the bylaws. A friend of mine is a dealer in Atlanta and they did not even know there was a meeting.

Sam raised a damn good question. How can Hobie support a National F-18 event? Can't mention it on the HCA or IHCA website, or show it in any division book, or allow the "H" to show up on any third-party flyers. They can give money to the event (and won't it be neat to see the factory DIRECTLY FUNDING an open event) and personnaly help out, but according to the WORD, that's about it. Of course, they can do whatever they want; who can sanction the sanctioneers?

Now, the more rational would say that's a detail that can be worked out. Well, wouldn't it have made sense to hold off on this thing for a while, ease into it with a less aggressive phase out, and work out the details BEFORE you piss the hell out of everybody with a sweeping all-at-once nasty-gram? Thank you, I feel better now.

Dave and All,

Here is some NAHCA History:

The first bylaws were approved in 1993. They appeared in the Jun/Jul '93 issue of the NAHCA News along with a ballot for approval by the general membership. (I found the returned ballots in my basement - I am such a pack rat!) There were about 60 ballots returned. NAHCA Membership at the time was 1200+. A pretty poor showing.

These first bylaws gave the individual members voting rights and they were responsible for electing officers and approving bylaw changes.

The bylaws were revised in 1995, again based on a membership-wide ballot printed in the Jun/Jul '95 NAHCA News. The changes were administrative in nature and no changes to voting rights were made.

No changes were made to the NAHCA By-laws for 5 years. Officer positions were always uncontested, therefore no ballots were printed in the newsletter.

At the 2000 NAHCA AGM in Kingston, Ont., a bylaws committee was formed to update the bylaws. This was the meeting where I stepped down as NAHCA Chairman and Nigel Pitt became Chairman.

This is where things kind of fall apart. The current version of the NAHCA Bylaws (dated May 1, 2001, posted here ) are 99% the same as those approved in 1995. They still grant members the right to vote, but they don't have anything to vote on anymore. Basically, all business of the NAHCA, including officer elections and by-law revisions, is governed by the Board of Directors, which consists of the Division Chairmen and the Women's Representative. (Note that NAHCA officers do not have voting rights except as individual members).

I can't find anything in my files where the 5/01 changes to the bylaws were approved by a general membership vote as they should have been under the 1995 bylaws. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I don't remember one, either.) I can understand the reasoning behind the changes - it's logistically difficult and time-consuming to conduct a membership-wide vote, although today's technology may overcome that objection. It's also very disappointing when you get less than 5% participation.

If you want to point a finger for the hiccup in procedure, you don't have far to go. This happened on Nigel's watch.

End of lesson.

Oh, and BTW, I'm pretty sure the meeting took place in Atlantic City, not Atlanta. The bylaws do provide for such meetings, however, no voting can take place.

What exactly are you insinuating, Matt.

Tracie

Nothing. Notice the "If" at the beginning of the sentence. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I don't have anything against Nigel.

The bylaws are what they are, however they were approved.

I just want to make sure everybody has their history straight. Lord knows, I have enough of it in my basement. You want a copy of the very first NAHCA Newsletter? How about a 1973 Hobie Hotline? Minutes of every NAHCA meeting since 1988? I've got them all, and I'm embarrassed to say that they're in filed in order.

Remember Phil Hartman and "The Anal Retentive Carpenter?"

I'm not that bad. Close, but not that bad.

Matt,
Since you have everything, do you have the February-March 2001 issue of the NAHCA News?

I do! (it was misfiled I told you I wasn't quite "The Anal Retentive Hobie Sailor") - and I see why you brought that particular issue to my attention.

For within that issue lies the Bylaws revision that I thought had not been brought before the membership. It was, there was no procedural error, and the bylaws as posted on the NAHCA website are legitimate. (I am assuming, of course that they were approved - which is highly likely.)

Thanks, Mary

Q; Why was the date of August 1 2003 set as the date to eliminate any non-Hobie boat from participating in the phase-out program?
Q; If PU was the international race director for the past several years and has participated in several events within Div. 4 that authorized non-Hobies, how could he not inform the IHCA of the presence? Wasn't it his duty?

This is probably a similar story that many H-class sailors can tell, but just wanted it said.
I am part of the Bald Eagle Yacht Club, near St. Paul, MN. Within our club we also have Hobie Fleet 52.
Our annual regatta has included an open class for around 10 years. Some years there were only 3 or 4 non Hobies, most from the Lake Waconia Sailing Club. Their club is mostly Nacra's and Prindles. They are (were?) our friends, and we welcomed them to the regatta. Some of us even reciprocated and participated in their club's annual open regatta. Through their club many of us have participated in a CRAW sponsored regatta at Shell Lake for the past 6 years, initially on our TheMightyHobie18's, but were very impressed with the 6.0na's and became interested in sailing more hi-tech boats. Several of us moved to H20's 4 years ago, and through the CRAW sponsored regatta have demonstrated that we are formidable competition for the 6.0na's. Why did we get H20's and not 6.0's? Because we wanted to also compete in Hobie regattas. We have 8 H20's in the club now. So yes, some of us like one design racing AND open regattas.

That being said, back to our regatta. In 2003 we lost our regatta site of 10 years. We were scrambling to find a new site and who stepped up to help us? The Lake Waconia Sailing Club, with hardly a Hobie in the club. Their club members undertook a great deal of personal hard work and $$ to upgrade their lake site so our regatta could be co-run from their home site. The regatta was a success, with 38 total boats including 13 non-hobies.
Friendships and mutual respect have developed over the years, but now what?

If we continue to cooperate with their club in hosting future regattas, we cannot call it a hobie regatta, so don't get Division publicity. If we don't have Division publicity, what happens to the Hobie Fleet? My estimate is that about 6 of the Hobies that attended our regatta in 2003 came partly because it was a Division Points regatta.

If we don't cooperate with their club, we can hardly expect their non-hobie sailors to help, or their club to be interested in supporting our regatta.

I understand what IHCA is trying to accomplish, and I can't say I disagree with their goal in the bigger picture. On the local level, we are trying to survive, and the new direction IHCA has taken the HCA is going to create a lot of turmoil. I know, I know. We have to make the choice between hosting an open regatta or a division points regatta. Sounds simple.

We want to do both.

Dave Mortenson
Past Commodore Bald Eagle Yacht Club, Minnesota
Past Commodore Hobie Fleet 295, Rochester, NY
Current H20
Current H16
Past TheMightyHobie18
New for 2004: Laser
NAHCA #606 (yup, been a member a long time...)

NAMSA has had several organizations that in the past were resistant to the concepts of NAMSA show their desire to help by joining and offering folks to volunteer for important Chair positions.

This is very exciting news. I believe we finally have the train on the right track.
thanks for your support, folks,
Rick

I, Mary, am posting this to clarify some statements and insinuations on this thread. They relate to the fact that in the spring of 2001 the members of NAHCA apparently voted to approve changes to the NAHCA bylaws which eliminated the members’ right to vote for officers and eliminated their right to vote for changes in the bylaws. (I say “apparently,” because nobody has yet produced the mailed-in ballots and the vote tally.)

To provide background and context, I am reprinting a few relevant posts, followed by a response from Nigel Pitt, who provided me with a statement for publication in Catamaran Sailor Magazine. (Complete story will be in the March issue.)

POSTED BY MATT BOUNDS, (NAHCA Chairman 1997-2000):
Here is some NAHCA History:

The first bylaws were approved in 1993. They appeared in the Jun/Jul '93 issue of the NAHCA News along with a ballot for approval by the general membership. (I found the returned ballots in my basement - I am such a pack rat!) There were about 60 ballots returned. NAHCA Membership at the time was 1200+. A pretty poor showing.

These first bylaws gave the individual members voting rights and they were responsible for electing officers and approving bylaw changes.

The bylaws were revised in 1995, again based on a membership-wide ballot printed in the Jun/Jul '95 NAHCA News. The changes were administrative in nature and no changes to voting rights were made.

No changes were made to the NAHCA By-laws for 5 years. Officer positions were always uncontested, therefore no ballots were printed in the newsletter.

At the 2000 NAHCA AGM in Kingston, Ont., a bylaws committee was formed to update the bylaws. This was the meeting where I stepped down as NAHCA Chairman and Nigel Pitt became Chairman.

This is where things kind of fall apart. The current version of the NAHCA Bylaws (dated May 1, 2001, posted here ) are 99% the same as those approved in 1995. They still grant members the right to vote, but they don't have anything to vote on anymore. Basically, all business of the NAHCA, including officer elections and by-law revisions, is governed by the Board of Directors, which consists of the Division Chairmen and the Women's Representative. (Note that NAHCA officers do not have voting rights except as individual members).

I can't find anything in my files where the May 2001 changes to the bylaws were approved by a general membership vote as they should have been under the 1995 bylaws. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I don't remember one, either.) I can understand the reasoning behind the changes - it's logistically difficult and time-consuming to conduct a membership-wide vote, although today's technology may overcome that objection. It's also very disappointing when you get less than 5% participation.

If you want to point a finger for the hiccup in procedure, you don't have far to go. This happened on Nigel's watch.


POSTED BY TRACIE:
What exactly are you insinuating, Matt?

POSTED BY MATT:
Nothing. Notice the "If" at the beginning of the sentence. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I don't have anything against Nigel.

The bylaws are what they are, however they were approved.

I just want to make sure everybody has their history straight. Lord knows, I have enough of it in my basement. You want a copy of the very first NAHCA Newsletter? How about a 1973 Hobie Hotline? Minutes of every NAHCA meeting since 1988? I've got them all, and I'm embarrassed to say that they're in filed in order.

POSTED BY MARY:
Since you have everything, do you have the February-March 2001 issue of the NAHCA News?

POSTED BY MATT:
I do! (it was misfiled …… and I see why you brought that particular issue to my attention.

For within that issue lies the Bylaws revision that I thought had not been brought before the membership. It was, there was no procedural error, and the bylaws as posted on the NAHCA website are legitimate. (I am assuming, of course that they were approved - which is highly likely.)

RESPONSE FROM NIGEL PITT (NAHCA Chairman 2000-2001):
I am very troubled by what I read from Matt Bounds, and I want to take just a minute to set the record straight. Let me start by saying I was drafted by Paul Ulibarri for the Chairmanship – I did not seek it, campaign for it, or covet it. I had been going about my business, sailing as much as I could, and promoting multihull sailing. I have never pretended to be the detail-oriented administrative type, so I have always done all I can to surround myself with good people that have that quality to make up for the fact that it doesn’t interest me very much.

I was not present at the meeting in Ontario when I was appointed Chairman. Actually, the only NAHCA meeting I ever attended was the one where I got fired. I have come to find out that at the meeting in Ontario, a committee was formed to look at the bylaws, which had not been revised for some time. That committee I believe, was Rich McVeigh (who was the class secretary at the time), Paul Ulibarri, and Mike Levesque. I didn’t have anything to do with the appointment or the mission of that committee, and I can say truthfully that I never knew what they were on about. Nothing ever was given to me to approve, vote on, reject or revise. The first I heard of any change to the by-laws was at the meeting in Tampa when it looked like I was about to be handed my hat.

In the meantime, I was doing what I thought I should to help strengthen the class. At the Spring Fever Regatta, I required membership in a class association for the first (and only, as it turned out) time. But to attract sailors and build the NAHCA, I offered membership to people who owned any kind of boat. This was specifically allowed under the “old regime.” The deal was this – come sail, but sign up for YOUR class association. When you sign up, Spring Fever will pay for your membership in the other organization. Show up with a Nacra, join Performance, and I’ll pay for your NAHCA membership or vice versa – both classes gain members and dues and the sport grows! It worked. At the end of my tenure as Chairman, there were over 1,200 members in NAHCA, and something like $40,000 in the bank, which positioned the organization to grow the support that had historically been provided to the Divisions and Fleets. This was a dramatic change from when I was asked to take over, and was the result of some simple and effective measures like simply sending renewal notices to everyone who’d ever been a member before.

Then the rumblings started – folks seemed to be getting the idea I was trying to convert the NAHCA into an open multihull organization. In hindsight, I realize there were a lot of people who were getting whipped up by a very few with panic tactics and misrepresentation. At the time, I was completely blind to it. I tried to assure the class that although I sail and own both Hobie and Performance boats, I was truly focused on growing the NAHCA. My statements were taken out of context and circulated as proof that I was one of the dreaded x-class “infiltrators.” It became increasingly clear that I was being railroaded, I figured that if a strong balance sheet and sharp increases in membership didn’t speak for itself, what else could I say?

By the time the class meeting in Tampa rolled around, things had come to a head. I was going to be presiding over my first meeting where emotions were running high and I was concerned that things were going to get quickly out of hand. I even had a Parliamentarian appointed to help me conduct the meeting properly, knowing that my strength doesn’t lie even in that zip code. The person I asked to take on the job showed up well prepared, and we did a pre-meeting pow-wow with Paul Ulibarri to make sure we could conduct the meeting, get through the election of officers, and get back to the regatta at hand without it dissolving into a shouting match. I had a pretty good idea at that point that I was on the way out, but it was my responsibility to see it through, and I truly disagreed with Rich McVeigh on how the class was to be run.

The Parliamentarian opened a tabbed notebook and started asking some questions I couldn’t answer. Had the ballots been sent to the members 30 days prior to the meeting? How many votes had been received? Had the Nominating Chairman tallied them? I didn’t have those answers. It should be noted that Paul was sitting right there with me, the man who made up one third of the committee that had been formed to revise the by-laws, the very committee that had eliminated that language, effectively removing any reference to the general dues-paying members of NAHCA voting for anything at all, and all he said was something like, “oops, I guess we can’t have an election tonight.”

We convened the meeting and started conducting business. When we got to the election portion of the evening, all hell broke loose. Rich, who was still secretary, had a whole different set of bylaws. The Parliamentarian was asked where he got his version, and he said he’d printed them off the NAHCA web site the night before. Nobody had any record of a vote to change the bylaws, although someone was able to dig out a copy of the NAHCA News in which they’d been printed. I was stunned. Why would the members give up their vote?

I looked at Paul and I looked at Rich and knew I’d been snookered. These were the guys who had put their arms over my shoulder and asked me to be Chairman to begin with… I left that meeting disappointed, disillusioned and disgusted. I’ve never looked back, until now. The only reason I wanted to respond was to prevent some revisionist history from going unchallenged. Maybe Matt didn’t mean anything by his public comments, but the changes to the by-laws passed completely under my radar, perhaps intentionally so. Maybe the whole open class controversy was simply a smoke screen for a power grab.

I don’t want anyone to think I’m seeking to infiltrate NAHCA again – I’m pretty happy with my good friends doing our own thing. I do still bear a bitterness at how the general membership has been disenfranchised – what is it with elections in Florida, anyway? My feeling is that the original bylaws were just fine – they didn’t compel members to vote, but anyone who took the time and effort to get their vote in was counted. I’ve heard the argument that the “old” bylaws were costing too much money – publishing a ballot once a year in the class newsletter is prohibitively expensive? I’ve heard that it was changed because so few people were voting – so what? It’s a class association, where everyone should get a voice whether they use it or not. I’ll bet there are members that wish they could vote now, eh? I have also heard the argument that, hey, the Division Chairs represent us. Conveniently, there’s nothing in the “new and improved” by-laws that says my Division Chair needs to talk to me or anyone else… there’s no requirement for polling, or building consensus or ANYTHING before he or she toddles off to the annual meeting to conduct the business of the class. That’s not really representation, is it? Yes, some of them make a real effort to reach out to the general members in their Division, but most do not, and none have to. Have you been asked anything lately?

The whole business makes me sad – membership is way down (less than 800 or so?) and looking grim for the coming year, the treasurer says they’re broke, and there are a lot of upset people on both sides of the fence. I suspect that things will smooth out in the next few months and, like the “big election” in 2001, it will all seem like less of a problem once we figure out how to keep our respective fleets going.

In the meantime, the bylaws limit the Chairman’s term to three years. Who will be taking over when Rich steps down later this year, I wonder? I wish them luck and wisdom, and hope they’ll bring back the general membership vote for elected officers and general membership approval of changes to the by-laws. Put the class tiller back in the hands of the sailors that make up the class, then maybe IHCA policy might be easier to swallow or spit out. After all, I think Hobie Sr. started this whole thing right here in America – who says we can’t steer our own course? Shouldn’t the IHCA then do what NAHCA says?

NIGEL PITT

Unbelievable!!!

Bob (No Comment)

Sounds like Nigel really got railroaded! I'm sorry to hear it but not terribly surprised.

The silver lining is what he (Nigel) said about fund raising. If you want people to join your organization, just ask!

Are there any old regatta lists? I'm not at all shy about calling people on the phone, sending an email or using any other method of contact to ask cat sailors to join NAMSA. And by the way, we should make it very clear it isn't an either or situation. If your a Hobie sailor, attend all the Hobie functions you like, but your welcome at ours also.

My goodness! That... (Nigel's version) is an interesting view of what happened. Not the way I recall how Rich was voted in.

I am actually quite bothered that Nigel takes that stance... takes the time to weave a story of some kind of power struggle in the class. I think I understand the motives of where it comes from though. It is just bad natured stirring of the pot. I certainly don't buy this "railroaded" version in ANY way. Nigel was just an unfortunate choice for the director of the class since he had no interest in doing the job to begin with.

I recall two articles in the NAHCA news that outlined what Nigel and Rich wanted for the direction of the class to take. Members were presented with the two directions and the vote went against Nigel’s view. It was really pretty simple.

Oh come on! Matt, this is just human nature! You get the same kind of infighting whenever you have groups! My boy scout troop was almost as bad.

Matt,
The point of the entire post is that the members were NOT presented with the option of voting for either "direction" or either candidate, because at that point the bylaws had been changed so they no longer had the right to vote for officers.

With a VERY quick review of old newsletters... it is obvious that the voting process was spelled out clearly. It certainly was clear and plain to these two candidates at the time.

I found the two articles from Rich and Nigel (NAHCA News Oct/Nov 2001).

Both in Nigel’s "NAHCA Chairman piece", in the front of the newsletter, and at the end of the article that Rich wrote, the voting process was spelled out plainly:

Rich wrote... "The way our election process works, the 16 Division Chairmen and the Women's Representative get to vote. Regardless of how you feel about these issues, please make your feelings known to your Division Chairman so the he/she may vote in a manner that accurately reflects the true desires of the membership."

Seems there was no question about how it should be done back then, so how does it make sense to second-guess it now? It doesn't make sense. For Nigel to suggest that there was some funny business going on in the background is just plain ridiculous.

The Division Chairmen voted… If you didn’t get involved back then, don’t keep complaining about the outcome and the current course of events. Either get involved now… shut up and follow… or get out of the way.

The bottom line is the general membership did NOT get to vote. I was very involved and I did talk to my Division Chair. But, there was no way the majority was going to be heard with that system and you know it. Which I’m sure was part of the plan.

Regards,
David Ingram

What plan David? Nigel was the chairman and he knew what the voting procedure was. I remember hearing that he tried to disrupt that meeting to prevent a vote. Seems he knew, going in, that he did not have the popular support of the class. He lost... Rich won... end of that chapter.

All this conspiracy stuff is just plain silly. Popular support has to be class wide... not from just a couple of divisions.

Lets move on.

I am confused
How am I, or anybody else, supposed to tell our Division Chairman how to vote if we don't know what they are voting on?
The majority of new business at the AGM is introduced AT the AGM.

Another question.
How did the Race Committee Chairman(PU) get the authority to "draft" a new NAHCA Chairman?
How did Nigel get "elected" in 2000 without a membership election, if the membership didn't lose that right until late 2001?

And a question I keep asking.
Rich McVeigh received the first letter from PU, Lori Mahoney, Brian Phipps, and David Brookes on October 15, 2003 and the second letter from Doug Skidmore on October 24, 2003.
Why did he wait until January 2004 to tell us?
How many others knew of these emails?
Matt Miller, when did you know?
Roger Brown, when did you know?
Kathleen Tracy, when did you know?
Bruce Andrews, when did you know?
Liza Cleveland, when did you know?
Mimi Appel, when did you know?
Terri Reuwsaat, when did you know?
Mike Levesque, when did you know?
Karen-Ann Xavier, when did you know?

WHO KNEW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT?

Are we supposed to trust these peoploe who kept this a secret from us?

Do you know what your City Council, State Representatives, Congressmen or Senators are voting on today? Those are important decisions that are effecting our lives and we are all letting someone else handle it... and we are paying them to do it. The HCA is an under-funded sailing association run by volunteers. They cannot be expected to hold your hand and keep you informed of every possible decision that is going down. Keep informed, attend meetings and make your views known to the people in charge... that is how it is done every where else... that is how it has to be done with the HCA.

We vote to elect those City Council, State Representatives, Congressmen or Senators -- and we can vote to un-elect them.

Then it is as simple as that... you don't like how the system is running... get involved.

In this case you first have to be a HCA member. Campaign with your fleet, division and ask your Division Chairman to vote your wishes.

I'm confused about "getting involved". All of the most "involved" folks in my Division that I have any contact with didn't know anything about a discussion or consideration regarding any of the latest NAHCA/HCA/IHCA mandates. Some of them have held fleet and division positions for the past 20 years.

I guess I'm not sure how "involved" we have to become just to get in on the conversation.

Mike Wallace
H-17

Here in Div 11 we voted on how we wanted our chairman to case his vote. We understood the two visions represented by Nigel and Rich and expressed our opinion through our chairman.

Matt

First the HCA is not a government even though it is acting like one. You are not forced to join the HCA, it is a volunteer membership. I sent an email to my division chair in 2001 and I don’t know how he voted or how anyone voted since the results were never published, that I know of. Was there a vote on the new policy and what were the results? I did not even know there was going to be a meeting or vote, so how could I go to my division chair? I did not see the meeting published as noted in the bylaws. It looks like Hobie Cat Co. is also forcing this new policy from Doug Skidmore’s letter. Hobie Cat Co should not have any say in what goes on in the HCA. If Hobie Cat Co wants to donate money that’s great, but there should not be any Hobie Cat Co employees on the HCA board. Do you not think that with a decision this big there should be a membership vote?

I have been a member for a long time, put on some regattas and have never seen any money or support from HCA. Where does all that money go? I did get some course stickers, but I had to pay for them and they were out of date. It seems like a lot of money is wasted on the HCA newsletters and by the time I get them the event is over or I read it online so I just throw it away.

This will be the first year in a long time I won’t be joining HCA because the members have no rights and the manufacturer appears to be running things. If things change I may come back, but for now I will be supporting catamaran sailing for all and not just supporting a manufacturer.

I've tried in vain to get a quote from the web site for this so called "new insurance". This site doesn't even list Hobies as part of the one design group, nor anywhere else.

I can understand why Hobie Inc wants to drive a wedge between Hobies & the so-called x-boaters. I think that it is a bad business model, but it is at least understandable. What I don't understand is the desire of many (some?) Hobie sailors to race / sail at one-brand events. What is so magic about Hobie? Why will a bunch of Hobie 16's welcome a single Hobie 17, Hobie 18, Hobie 21 or Hobie Wave at their regatta and then shun a group Prindle 16's that they could compete head to head with?

Tom Liston
25 years of "x-boating"

Great Idea Matt, I think I'll vote with my feet and join Namsa!

From the reactions to the edict and how it was decided it looks like more that a couple of divisions feel strongly about this issue.

Why couldn't you have taken a piece of the 40K you had in the bank and created an online voting system instead of changing the bylaws to remove the right? At least we would have felt like we were getting something for our membership dollars.

Dave

Nigel said: "At the end of my tenure as Chairman, there were over 1,200 members in NAHCA, and something like $40,000 in the bank"... That is JUST a bit misleading.

In-the-bank and in-the-budjet are two very different things.

The first thing that Rich had to do when he took office was straighten out the books. There was something like $20,000 in unpaid debt.

Before anybody gets hairy about what the "$20K of debt" was, it was mostly postage that Ron Palmer had fronted for the NAHCA News that he hadn't submitted reimbursement requests for. It was about 3-4 YEARS worth. The beginning of it was noted on the last financial statement that I oversaw (1999?) as a payable.

[quote] What I don't understand is the desire of many (some?) Hobie sailors to race / sail at one-brand events. What is so magic about Hobie?

Tom,

These questions have infinite answers depending on how people respond. I can only give you my personal experience.

For me, Hobie and Hobie Cat have been my connection to the SoCal beach culture that I grew up with. Hobie has been deeply engrained in the California lifestyle for over 50 years. It's where it all started. Being a recent transplant to Michigan, I wouldn't expect anyone from the Midwest to understand this. But there is a certain mystic. I started surfing a Mark Andreini twin fin fish in 1970 before graduating to a longboard of which I now own two, a 9'0" Yater peformance longboard and a 10'6" Hobie noserider. Here is the connection/degrees of seperation. Reynolds Yater shaped and glassed surfboards for Hobie Alter before striking out on his own in the early 60's. Mark Andreini still shapes and glasses out of Yater's Santa Barbara surf shop. One day while day sailing in Channel Islands Harbor (Oxnard, CA), I saw a Hobie 16 glide effortlessly past us. I knew right then that I wanted one. It seemed like a natural progression from surfing to sailing...a boat built by a master surfboard craftsman. I did dabble in sailboards for awhile but catamarans gave me my adrenaline fix.

Living in Santa Barbara and being a new, naive Hobie 16 owner, I wanted to try racing. I found the North American Catamaran Racing Association (NACRA) listed in my local yellow pages (the factory was based in SB at the time). So I called them wanting more information about racing my Hobie 16. They laughed me right off the phone. Not a good first impression. I ended up joining Hobie Fleet 15 just down the coast in Ventura. They welcomed me with open arms, treated me like family and taught me about the quirks of the boat.

I started going to local regattas and found many like minded people. A few years later I started going to Nationals (Continentals) and found many more like minded people from across North America. A few years after that I started going to Worlds and found that this extended family was truly international. This world wide family shared a common vision...one design class racing. Like Jeff Alter said a few posts ago...sailing amongst friends on like equipment. I've met some of my closest and dearest friends through sailing. These, along with the California tie continue to be the attraction for me.

But now there is a new twist in the formula...Formula 18 that is. I bought my Tiger so that I could race Hobie one design or F18. I have never liked racing against the clock and the Tiger affords me the best of both worlds. There never seemed to be enough "like" boats to have a fleet start at many of the open events I've attended. The solution to my problem...the Tiger. I will continue to campaign the Tiger at Hobie, NAF-18 and CRAM events like I did last year. I just renewed my HCA and NAF-18 memberships for 2004. I will continue to renew old friendships and make new ones wherever I sail...whether that be here in the Midwest or on the other side of the planet. I'm not going to let HCA's decision affect that.

So, I hope you can now understand where this sailor coming from, my loyalty to the Hobie brand and my desire to race one design. Some people may not agree or see eye to eye. This is just my experience with the Hobie magic and mystic. Please don't hold it against me.

See you on the soft water this spring!

John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI

Matt,

You forgot one thing!!!!! The NAHCA owed the IHCA several years of a "boat assessment" ($1.00 per member boat???) that was neglected. That was also a sizable chunk of money. I should know...I paid the bill which put the NAHCA back in good graces with IHCA.

John Bauldry
NAHCA Treasurer 2001-2003
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI

JB - it's $5 per NAHCA membership that goes to the IHCA. That's a worldwide requirement (and been that way since the NAHCA first started charging for memberships 12 years ago).

MB - So I had a senior moment. You are right. It was $5.00 per boat. The $1.00 per boat was the divisional assessment for NAHCA.

JB

As a matter of fact, yes, I do know what they're voting on. It's posted in advance for everyone to see, as is pending state and federal legislation. HCA being a quasi governmental body, it makes sense that they would also make important decissions known to its members. It's not expensive or difficult, and the tools are in place. HCA has a Web site, and a printed publication (though terminally outdated), just post important proposed changes and let everyone know what's happening. I'm not saying we need division-wide notice every time HCA votes to buy stamps, but decissions this big should have a wider audience.

Well Bob I guess we'll see you at Tybee Island this fall for Performance Cats Nationals. Let us know what kind of PC boat you'll be sailing, there won't be any Hobie Cats participating, there are not enough Hobies being added to fleets anymore to count. The only fleet additions there are are old Hobies that have been replaced by PC products.
See ya at Tybee Island!!
Cary Palmer

It is actually a great time to move into an Inter20. The boats are relatively cheap for a high end catamaran. They are rock solid and one of the only two strong classes here in the South East. Other class is the F-18 class, and we will see how that all plays out when the dust settles from This foolishness with Hobie Rules changes. Not only is Hobie trying to separate from the X boats, they are also trying to pull the Tigers away from the F-18 Class.
The F-18 class was the first sensible move all the manufacturers have made in all this confusion of "what cat should I sail?"

Who will remember the Flying H If we take it off all our regatta flyers? Many regattas don't even post the name, just the H for directions as we drive down the back roads looking for some new regatta to sail. That was free advertising for Hobie, guess we have to stop doing that too.

Mary:
General response to this whole nightmare of a thread.
[color:"blue"] [/color]
Thanks for the Nigel Pitt Letter. Makes sense out of a lot of this, no matter what spin Matt Miller tries to put on this. I don't pretend to know all the high end politics of this. However, that was my first year as a catsailor. I showed up to Spring Fever for my very first ever race, barely having a clue what a racecourse was about. I do remember Nigel Pitt taking the time out of his extremely busy schedule to explain what the NAHCA was to me, a greenhorn with a 21 year old battered Hobie 16, & why it was well worth my hard earned $20 to join. Nigel even went out of his way to make sure Alex Shafer gave me a forgotten part that day cause I wasn't going to be able to race without it. Sounds like a real bad man to me. Helping out a lost newbie and guide him on the road to an excellent sport he has come to love, Yep, Nigel's a really bad guy. Wish we had a lot more like him, the world would be a far better place.
Nigel explained to me who knew nothing about nothing. Introduced me to the concept of belonging and supporting your NAHCA class organization. He told me what he was trying to do for the class, & made me believe. That's not the same guy Matt Miller is trying to paint some picture of, making some implication about mismanagement of funds. They're just trying to discredit a good and decent man whom they have a point of contention with. Casting blame here is irrelevent. They're just blowing smoke to hide the real issues.

While all you critics are at it, leave Sam Evans the hell alone. You can't find a better guy more dedicated to catamaran racing, and he does a fine job of promoting the sport at every level. Got something bad to say about Sam, come to my house & I'll straighten you out. Be glad to bandage you up afterwards, too.

The real issue is that they aren't selling as many Hobies as they want. They think they can make some damn ruling and pull all the diehards back together. They don't seem to have a clue that the Hobie owning Diehards are in extremely short supply, not enough to make up a class or regatta big enough to be worthwhile. But they're just screwing up and making everyone angry about their shenanigans. Sailors have already made up their minds. If Hobie thinks they control the local fleets, they're crazy. No one to my knowledge has ever seen anyone from Hobie show up at the local fleet races. I don't think they could legitimately stop anyone from advertising a regatta with the Hobie name on it. They can stop publishing our races on Division Websites, or allowing Hobie Points regattas or maybe disallow a Fleet as a Hobie Fleet, but that will be cutting their own throats, the regattas will go on regardless. The only loss will be the gradual disappearance of the Hobie name recognition, and the only ones who will lose in that will be Hobie America. The real racers just want to race. I love Hobie Products. Although I don't own one at present, I sail Hobies with my other Brand-H catsailing friends regularly. Hobie just doesn't make a multihull that meets my wants at present. But if I had to make a choice between buying a Hobie Boat and another manufacturer's product at present, Mr. Miller's attitude, misdirection, and blaming has sure talked me out of buying another. And many others. People are looking at dumping their Tigers in the wake of the F-18 controversy, and that is the only thing Hobie has going for them in the USA right now. People bought their Tigers to finally be able to have a class where they could race their friends on a Brand X boats and still be class legal.
Hobie is trying to screw that up, and it's the first smart move they've made in years. The whole of Division 9 is in an uproar, we are not about to give up our regattas, nor our friends who sail multihulls of many flavors. We would all like to be able to work out something amicably, but to do things under the new Hobie rules would dissolve the racing fleets. There just aren't that many Hobies around to be able to hold a one design event of any magnitude. We have a large & growing local fleet in terms of participation. The local fleets have worked their collective butts off to promote catsailing, and we're not letting Hobie Cat or anyone else's misguided micromanagement stop our racing fun. Racing doesn't happen at the Hobie Cat Factory, they just build boats. Maybe they should just mind their own damn business, stick to building good and decent boats, and leave local fleet racing to the people who do it.
Cary Palmer
Hobie Fleet 141 www.seacats.org

Zuhl: I agree with most everything you're saying. Except that I doubt this will lead to the demise of the Hobie company. I can only guess, but the event currently scheduled in Mexico will probably turn a profit and sell some boats. Think about it purely as a sailor wanting to take a vacation. A "turn key" package with no hassles, just write a check, show up and have fun.

I hope NAMSA picks up on the idea. I think it's the way to go.

I'm letting my feet do the walking. Joining NAMSA today.
Nevermore,
Edgar

Here is the letter that started it all...from the hand of PU himself....sent to myself and others....This was back before the holidays (late 03)...

Take a look:

Gentlemen,
I understand that you are all purchasing A Cats for the coming season. A great boat. I had the privilege of managing the 2002 A Cat World Championship in Martha's Vineyard. If I were 20 years younger 30 lbs lighter and tall I would be very tempted to race this boat. It is very quick in most conditions. I noticed that all the top competitors were under 175 lbs so I guess at that level, like most boats it pays to be light.
Hopefully you will all still retain a Hobie Cat so that you will be able to come and play with us at Hobie Events. We would hate to miss your smiling faces. Best of luck in your new endeavor.
Please be advised that the A Cat will not be permitted to race in Hobie events anywhere in the world. This will include North America and Division 4.
Regards,
Paul Ulibarri,
President, International Hobie Class Association

Dave:
Excellent Data! I wonder how a poor Hobie sailor feels when he drives all that way to MidWinters and there are no boats to race one design against. Interesting in the Hobie 18 class only one showed in 2003! Bet that guy will be at Spring Fever this year instead, so he can have some real one design racing instead.
Cary Palmer
www.seacats.org

PU that stinks, and I don't even own a Hobie. But I might buy an old wooden A cat!

Glad to see that after I join NAMSA I will have a vote for officers and things.
Here I come NAMSA.
Nevermore,
Edgar

Seems that IHCA will make it less financially feasible for clubs in the mid-Atlantic area to put on regattas since 20% or more of turnout was in X-class. What's the possibility that a Hobie Fleet putting on a points regatta would just run another regatta simultaneously and on the same racecourse, say Gunpowder 1 and Gunpowder 1X? Seems a good way to fight a stupid ruling to me.

-Greg

is going to get you on PU's list buddy!

Dave

Already one of the plans, Already one of the plans.
Meets Hobie requirements, still allows a place for those Hobies to race who don't have enough numbers to have a legitimate 5 Boat class.

so Micheal... where are you going to race those A-cats? I want to check it out.

As for the rest of this stuff...can't we all just get along? I came here to read about racing, and I get 25 freaking pages of politics and whiners. Non-supporters of the Hobie decision should look at the best anology I have seen... if you want to race at a Laser Regatta, you don't show up with an I-20. End of discussion. If your I-20 can be raced somewhere else, then go race it and stop complaining. I'll do the same with my Tiger, and hopefully everyone will be having fun. If you can show me a better overall racing circiut (one design) that I can participate in, then I might be there too. Hobie simply offers the best overall package in my geographical area, and it appears that they are geuinely trying to make it better. Most serious racers will agree that the purest form of the sport is ONE DESIGN racing, so how can we hold an organization to task for enforcing that concept? The dilution of people and competitors in this sport is sad and frustrating, but like everything else in life it will evolve and shake out to be just fine in the end. So lets get back to where we CAN race, and stop whining about where we can't. Where are the West Coast F18s? Anyone want to go racing?

jim

For as long as I have been racing catamarans, Hobie has had a policy of actively driving a wedge between Hobies and other multihulls. It is not about one design racing, it is one brand racing. Sure there are some one-design fleets, but there are enough orphan Hobies to make up an open fleet at many of their regattas. A lone H14 Turbo, H21, TheMightyHobie18 FX or other oddball Hobie is more than welcome at any Hobie regatta. So stop insulting our intelligence with this one-design stuff. Hobie is and always has been about one brand racing.

From reading many of the posts on this thread & on other related threads, it appears that a lot of Hobie sailors have no idea of how Hobie Inc (NAHCA, IHCA & Hobie Cat Company) has treated the rest of the multihull community (x-boats in Hobie-speak) over the years. To provide some insight, the following are my experiences with Hobie Inc. as a one design x-boater for 25 years.

My first multihull experience was crewing on a Hobie 18 in 1977. We raced almost every weekend with the Ford Lake Sail Club. At that time the club consisted of a Hobie 16 fleet, a fleet of miscellaneous monohulls that raced in a Portsmouth fleet & us, a lone Hobie 18. The Hobie 16’s welcomed their brother Hobie with open arms. In addition to their usual fleet scoring, they scored an overall multihull winner using Portsmouth handicapping.

In 1978, I purchased a NACRA 5.2 because it had the same Portsmouth number as the Hobie 18 and my girlfriend & I were too light for the Hobie 18. The plan was we would race head to head with my buddy on his Hobie 18. First across the line wins! Neither of us had yet raced one-design. When I showed up at the first Ford Lake regatta in the Spring of 1978 with my brand new NACRA 5.2 looking to race head to head with the Hobie 18 (he was still the only one) I was told to leave. I was told that it was a Hobie only club. I pointed to the monohulls and said that there were several brands of boat racing in the Portsmouth fleet & asked why multihulls were any different. I don’t recall what if any logic they provided in response. I do recall being booted our of there.

Fortunately for my racing, I found CRAM. At the time CRAM was one half to three quarters Hobie. At various regattas CRAM also had one design fleets of Tornadoes, Sharks, Sol Cats, NACRA 5.2’s, Prindle 16’s and A-Boats. It also had a fleet of Portsmouth boats which was and is till this day the fleet of last resort for boats that don’t have enough entries to qualify as a fleet. My friend with his Hobie 18 & I both discovered the joys of one-design racing with CRAM.

When we started sailing with them, there was a Hobie Fleet under the umbrella of CRAM. That CRAM Hobie Fleet hosted two points regattas a year for several years. Those points regattas also had several one-design fleets of "x-boat" classes. In the early to mid 80’s, our friends at Division 10 kept adding to the list of requirements for us to host a points regatta. They told us that NAHCA (or whatever it was called at the time) was tightening up the points regatta criteria and they were passing them through. It became more and more difficult to comply with their demands. When we were not able to comply with their demands, they took away our points regattas. That was the beginning of the end of the Hobie fleets within CRAM.

Today, the serious Hobie racers in Southeast Michigan head to New York State to race with the Rocheseter & Syracuse Hobie fleets. That is an additional 2 to 4 hours of driving time over what it would take to come to a CRAM regatta. If not for the Hobie policy, I am sure that we would still have active viable Hobie fleets in Michigan.

Tom Liston
NACRA F-18 #79

Good comments Tom .

The H only race edict is in direct conflict with the Formula 18 concept that encourages all to race including the H-Tiger F-18 , imported from H Europe by Hobie US, built specifically as a Formula 18 .
Hobie builds and develops a Formula 18 ,--expects the benifits of the Formula concept of inclusion of all,--then announces a H-only policy ? -
The conflict and lack or reciprication of intent that desires to segment a SPORT to favor a particular brand and its parent companies profit and or a false perception of brand class only racing as being somehow superior ?,Why then build or import a Formula 18 -.?

The answer for most catamaran racing sailors are Formula and development classes like A s and race groups based on design measurement that include all brand types categorized by L B W AND SAIL AREA ,--not brand class , NOT H only.

The expansion of Formula racing and formula design measurement race groups should be what the majority of racing sailors gravitate towards and is the best solution for all involved , especially H and H sailors which are now nearly non existant geographically in the mid west region .

Carl

It's time to wish Hobie sailors all the best, bon voyage and welcome!

It's just economics. Because we can't sail in their regattas doesn't mean they can't sail in ours.

For the locals running a regatta, Hobie money spends just like everyone else's!

Did you actually read any of this thread? I don't remember a Hobie Hater among them. Most of us love Hobie Cats. We just don't like some damn selfish politicoeconomically motivated segregationist policy that messes with the regrowth of the local racing fleets. Hobie had little to do with the resurgence of the Multihull fleets at the local level. That comes from one source, a bunch of hardworking catamaran sailors who may sail ANY brand of Catamaran, give freely of their time and resources to promote the love of the sport. If the so-called Brand X sailors were to exclude the Hobies like HobieCatAmerica are proposing to do to us, then they'd have no place to sail their HobieCats in an organized event.
Hobie needs to reconsider this policy, it was dumb in the first place, and sometimes you have to just admit you made a mistake and move on.
Cary Palmer, Hobie Lover
Hobie Fleet 141

Tiger.....

I was not complaining...just showing the original letter. I am very happy with the new A schedule, and as far as Im concerned...come one, come all!!!



Its about sailing with friends, with good competition, and exchanging ideas....

See ya on the water....

Michael

Agree with Zuhl..... no Hobie Haters, just wonderers.
But you know, this may be the best thing after all. We have leaned on NAHCA's organization and maybe its time we have our own cat national organization that is not factory orientated, rather cat and sailor orientated.
Nevermore
Edgar

You may be the smartest one of us all Edgar.
Maybe it's time to just take our numbers and move on.
Will be the best thing for us all.

I'm not a Hobie hater. But I was about to buy a second boat (a Wave) until this. Now I'm looking for any other option. I will not even buy a used Hobie because of this marketing strategy.

With car sales a little slow, web surfing beats cold calling!
Anyways, after reading thru all these opinions, I think it would be interesting to hear from the fleets, that will be open to all sailors? Maybe it would be smarter if they contacted Mary, this might be an interesting article. (I sure M. Miller From the Hobie Cat Co. is watching )

I’ll tell you how it looks from the North American Hobie Class. It looks like we are going to have a growth year in 2004, not by a lot but growth all the same. The fact that many of the sailors racing in other classes have not joined this year makes the news all the more encouraging.
Have a Hobie Day,
Bob

Division 9 has chosen to run the regattas the way we want and to invite all sailors this year. We will see what the HCA does for next year.If the policy does not change I think we will be taking the word Hobie off our flyers.

The Tiger class is being run as F 18 at all our regattas.

David Lennard

Bob,

What information are you using to quantify the positive growth of NAHCA next year?

Or are you doing some creative counting?

There were several HCA membership-building events this year, not the least of which was a successful Worlds here in North America. How many people do you know, in ALL multihull classes, that join their class association just before nationals and when they have to do so in order to compete. Wouldn't surprise me if there were a lot of renewing members that hadn't been on the books in a while. The same thing happens even at Alter Cup.

Increased membership is a good thing - it gives the national organizations what they need to implement the will of the members, including education and other important programs. Don't wait - join early, join often. We're all eligible for membership in more than just one sailing organization. Plus, if you're a member, you get a role in steering the organization.

I'll climb down, now.

You da' man. Well said.

Tracie

I AGREE WITH THE GET ON THE BANDWAGON APPROACH TO A NATIONAL EVENT!

It only serves to inflate numbers. And, we are talking about H16s/Tigers right? The only reason I stay a member is I support multihull sailing, not by particular brand.
BC

side tracked, I know of the major clubs like CRAM, OCRA, & CRAW. But was wondering which fleets will remain open?
Ted

I think it should be up to the Hobie fleets, when they publish their 2005 schedules, to indicate what events are "Open" and what events are "Hobie only."

At this point probably a lot of them do not yet know what they are going to do next year when the new policy goes into effect. It's kind of early to ask that question.

I know some are waiting to see if the policy is going to stand or be rescinded.

It would be nice if a vote could be taken of the HCA membership to see what the majority of the sailors and the fleets would prefer, but apparently that is not an option.

As a person new to sailing a Cat ( Nacra 5.2) I have been reading all of this and am fairly astounded at some of the attitudes and concepts presented in these answers. Down here at Dixie Sailing Club we are having to work our butts off to get folks to come to regattas, no matter what the boat is, monohull or Cat. With a hobby/sport that seems to need all the entrants that it can get, we work hard to get more to come, not tell folks you can't race because of the type of cat you have, or try to divide it up into so small of fleets there is no real racing to be done.

Here is an open comment to any and all types of cat sailors - if you are ever in Alabama and want to come racing at Dixie Sailing Club, you are welcome, no matter what kind of cat you have. We race every weekend from March thru mid December, and every race is free to visitors. If you are worried about not having good enough competition, every week we have the Catalina 22 Gold Fleet National Champion from last year, and this years #2, and 3 other Gold Fleet national level racers. We cat folks don't care what you sail, just so long as we can give those C22 guys a little work. Know that you are welcome to join us, regardless of what type cat you have. You want any more info, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

Dick

I have little to NO say in US Sailing.

We all know how much say the HCA allows

I join because we have to! Other than the D-PN data and the rule book US Sailing really doesn't do anything for me. As for education... who is being educated and what is being taught? What impact is US Sailing making at the regional level beyond insureance?

I'm all for joining an orgaization, but give me a say and make an impact that directly benefits me.

Granted I'm a bit of an anarchiest and I don't believe in organization for the sake of organization. But show me a tangable benefit that is at the regional level and I'll beat the drum louder than anyone.

Ding

Hey Dave -

It's partially my fault if you think you don't have a say in what happens within US SAILING and particularly on the Multihull Council. This post is long-winded, but stick with me for a minute.

As a US SAILING member, you are automatically an associate member of the Council and are welcome and encouraged (begged, really) to attend any of the meetings. As a representative of the Performance Class Association, since you’re an I-20 owner, you can vote at those meetings. Your expenses for attending the meetings are tax deductible - you get the documentation you need for your tax return in your registration pack. Some examples of the sorts of things discussed and decided at the meetings can be seen at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/reports.htm.

One of the biggest tasks the Council has is administering the ladder events that lead to the Championship and the Championship itself. Your participation in the Area Eliminations the last couple of years is what makes the Multihull Championship possible. I know that you aren't always able to travel to the qualifier, but we try to move the venue from year to year - this year it's in Melbourne in November (see http://www.ussailing.org/alter/alter05/elims0405.htm).

Tangible benefits at the regional level? People you know, and maybe you sometimes, compete in the ladder event to qualify for the Championship. People you know, and maybe you sometimes, go to the Championship. There are other US SAILING championships that you are eligible to compete for as well, assuming you could bring yourself to get on a dinghy or day sailor… Alex and Rick are Area D multihull sailors that have gone to the Championship of Champions.

When you qualified for the Alter Cup in Clearwater, US SAILING paid the charter fee on the boats used, saving you $500. Each year, the venue and boat to be selected for the Championship are discussed at length. Say, for example, you had an issue with CCSC or with Bimare, who was supplying the boats. As a member of the Council, you could have come to the meetings in Marina del Rey or Cincinnati and made your case. Can't make the meeting? Tell your Area Representative (that's me) what's eating you, and it's my job to take it to the table. I get e-mails and phone calls all the time, 90% of which are about Portsmouth numbers. Some of the calls aren't related to ratings - for example, the ARC 22 guys wanted to be able to compete in the Eliminations, but the rules stipulated "under 22-feet." The rule got changed. People in the Carolinas and Georgia complained that they couldn’t make the Eliminations. Area D got split.

That's all just related to multihulls specifically. Make a meeting and wander the halls a bit - as a member, you get to sit in for just about anything that's going on – choosing off the published agenda can be tough. Don't like one of the rules? Sit in with the rules committee. Safety equipment on offshore races bugging you? There's a group working on that, too. Seriously - one voice makes a difference within an organization of volunteers. I've been making the meetings since 2000 and I'm convinced that cat sailors could take over US SAILING if we just showed up. The meetings are scheduled pretty far in advance - http://www.ussailing.org/events/meet04fall/index.htm.

Education? You got it - it's a link right on the home page. Hit http://www.ussailing.org/training/ and take your pick - instructor training, judge and race officer classes and certification, now even power boat classes for people who use their power boats for race committee and coaching. You get free or discounted training, classes and merchandise – I know CCSC offers US SAILING courses. Need some shake-n-bake SIs or course diagrams? Got ‘em. Need a judge or a PRO? No sweat, where do you live? You get discounts on all regattas put on by clubs or organizations that are insured by US SAILING. In addition, you can insure your boat, your club, or your regatta for less.

There are lots of youth programs, too - I wish there were already a multihull-oriented youth program, but that might change now that there will be a multihull division at the ISAF worlds from now on... that happened as a result of volunteers who wanted to see a change. Harry and Tommy just finished up at the Youth Worlds in Poland - your annual dues helped send them there, and it's the first time for multihulls. When you see them in St. Augustine, let them tell you if it was an amazing experience, even if they did stink it up. Your dues send the Olympic team to Athens, too. And guess what – you get a say in how your dues get spent! I know it sounds incredible, but it’s true. All it takes is making the meetings or asking your Rep (again, me) to do it for you.

Let’s talk about it some more in St. Augustine – I don’t want anybody in my Area feeling like they pay their money and don’t get anything for it. Sure, a big box of goodies doesn’t magically show up on your doorstep, but your dues get you a lot if you’ll take advantage.

The problem seems to be to this newbie with open minded eyes is simple, MONEY. Hobie supports the racing circuit with financing at the national and international level with raffle prizes and maybe insurance at the local level, not to mention the support of the local dealers for regattas. Hobie wants to recoup that money as well as maybe become a monopoly along the way which any good capitalistic company does. As a consumer, we want competition. So maybe the problem isn’t Hobie. Maybe the problem is Performance Cats or the other manufacturers. Where is their support? Why isn’t their racing circuit much stronger? I’m new to all of this, but I haven’t seen much from Hobie’s competitors. As I understand it, even when there is an open event, the overwhelming majority of boats are Hobies. As I see it there are 2 ways to go.

1. Go entirely Hobie and say goodbye to competitive manufacturing. This is not necessarily negative. There simply may not be enough of a marketplace to support more than 1 manufacturer in the field of beach cat racing in today’s world.

Or

2. Organize completely independent from the manufacturers. NASCAR races with the support of all major car manufacturers without excluding any. For large boat regattas they are often supported by several manufacturers. My guess is that Hobie US and the local dealers will continue to support the regattas without the moniker HOBIE on the NOR, albeit maybe not as strongly, but this would also open the door to the other manufacturers to fill the gap. As far as I can tell, most regattas would survive without the Hobie name and the loss of their points which don’t really seem to matter too much anyways. With a strong national combined circuit, points would matter. This would make the strong racing enthusiast happy and still provide the openness that fosters growth in the sport. Exclusivity never grew anything but resentment. Yes, I know there already are some independent organizations, but they certainly don’t compare to the strength of the Hobie racing circuit. Maybe this is the time for those independents to soak up the fleets that Hobie is willing to lose to create this strong circuit. A strong independent circuit would put the consumer back in a position of power forcing the manufacturers to compete to be a part of the circuit and not in the position of handing down edicts from above.

I don’t mean to sound like a Hobie heretic. I am a proud new Tiger owner and have an appreciation for the original inventor of a product, but I also would like to see competition from manufacturers to keep costs down and see continued refinements in the boats which is of course against the idea of single class racing which really isn’t single class racing because the boats change a little each year but are still single class... ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!!. Do any of you old time racers know how ridiculous some of this stuff seems to a new person? Why can’t we just get the fastest boats racing on the water? Am I the only one who wants to race on a carbon fiber boat like Lance Armstrong’s BICYCLE? I don’t want to hear about how single class racing makes the best racing because the boats are the same. Bullogna! The best racers buy new sails every year at a cost of $3000 for a Tiger and upgrade to new boats every other year. That’s not the same as competing with a person with a 5 year old boat with 5 year old sails!?! I guess I’m just going to just drink a couple shots, try to clear my head, and try to remember I just got into racing to become a better sailor anyways.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a newbie.

What the @#%& does ’t mean?

It happens when you edit something in microsoft word and paste it to the forum...it's the apostrophies and such that just don't translate properly in the paste method.

Don't know. I didn't put it there.

I fixed the original and reposted below.


The problem seems to be to this newbie with open minded eyes is simple, MONEY. Hobie supports the racing circuit with financing at the national and international level and with raffle prizes and maybe insurance at the local level, not to mention the support of the local dealers for regattas. Hobie wants to recoup that money as well as maybe become a monopoly along the way which any good capitalistic company does. As a consumer, we want competition. So maybe the problem isn't Hobie. Maybe the problem is Performance Cats or the other manufacturers. Where is their support? Why isn't their racing circuit much stronger? I'm new to all of this, but I haven't seen much from Hobie's competitors. As I understand it, even when there is an open event, the overwhelming majority of boats are Hobies. As I see it there are 2 ways to go.

1. Go entirely Hobie and say goodbye to competitive manufacturing. This is not necessarily negative. There simply may not be enough of a marketplace to support more than 1 manufacturer in the field of beach cat racing in today's world or more appropriately, the U.S..

Or

2. Organize completely independent from the manufacturers. NASCAR races with the support of all major car manufacturers without excluding any. For large boat regattas they are often supported by several manufacturers. My guess is that Hobie US and the local dealers will continue to support the regattas without the moniker HOBIE on the NOR, albeit maybe not as strongly, but this would also open the door to the other manufacturers to fill the gap. As far as I can tell, most regattas would survive without the Hobie name and the loss of their points which don't really seem to matter too much anyways. With a strong national combined circuit, points would matter. This would make the strong racing enthusiast happy and still provide the openness that fosters growth in the sport. Exclusivity never grew anything but resentment. Yes, I know there already are some independent organizations, but they certainly don't compare to the strength of the Hobie racing circuit. Maybe this is the time for those independents to soak up the fleets that Hobie is willing to lose to create this strong circuit. A strong independent circuit would put the consumer back in a position of power forcing the manufacturers to compete to be a part of the circuit and not in the position of handing down edicts from above.

I don't mean to sound like a Hobie heretic. I am a proud new Tiger owner and have an appreciation for the original inventor of a product, but I also would like to see competition from manufacturers to keep costs down and see continued refinements in the boats which is of course against the idea of single class racing which really isn't single class racing because the boats change a little each year but are still single class... ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!!. Do any of you old time racers know how ridiculous some of this stuff seems to a new person? Why can't we just get the fastest boats racing on the water? Am I the only one who wants to race on a carbon fiber boat like Lance Armstrong's BICYCLE? I don't want to hear about how single class racing makes the best racing because the boats are the same. Bullogna! The best racers buy new sails every year at a cost of $3000 for a Tiger and upgrade to new boats every other year. That's not the same as competing with a person with a 5 year old boat with 5 year old sails!?! I guess I'm just going to just drink a couple shots, try to clear my head, and try to remember I just got into racing to become a better sailor anyways.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a newbie.

Oh.