Catsailor.com

14-foot Formula-style Class?

Posted By: John Williams

14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 06:51 PM

Saw a post elsewhere that proposed a 14-foot class association or something to the effect. I own a 14-foot boat and would be interested in seeing something develop. I have enjoyed sailing against other, similar-performing boats at the events I've attended as a skipper. The thought that some of the 14-footers out there might get together, break free of potentially outdated and limiting one-design rules, and start a loose "formula" style movement sounds great! My one-design class association has been terrific in setting up rules that allow for innovation and experimentation with sails, hardware, and number of crew. We're at http://mystereowners.org/mystere/ if anyone's interested.

I like the idea of racing Bob Curry's H14 with that square-top main and huge headsail... Bring the noise, BC!

Posted By: Mary

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 07:01 PM

John, Bob Curry proposed the idea of a Formula 14 class, and Carl Bohannon posted the following response. It was on that unbearably long thread about the NAHCA policy, so I am copying it over to here. Thanks for starting a new thread about this.

Posted by Carl Bohannon in reply to Bob Curry:
"Let's start a Formula 14 class"

I will take a stab at it.

First as I learned in playing with my wife's wave, small boats are cheap to experiment with. Make it an experimenter's class.

Second, limit it so anybody can right one, make light skippers (women) even, and the boats still fun when the wind is 20+ kts

Third, since there are unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in an area make the rules loose enough that they can be a real pain to the bigger boats when the wind is light or strong.

Last and most important, don't complicate it.


______________________________________________________________________________
Rules

Anyone can claim to race under "14" rule, anyone can protest them. Obvious violators subject to public humiliation


Max length (excluding rudders) 14 ft
max waterline width 8.5 ft
Max mast length TBD (22-24ft?) ft (or restrict sail luff length)
Max main sail area excluding mast 120 ft2 per ISAF
optional- max other sail area 150 ft2( will change Portsmouth number)
Sail area to be written on sail by sailmaker or measurer if sail does not conform to a one design class


wings may be used on existing boats that are narrower than 8.5 ft
max width = waterline width + 2*(8.5 -waterline width)

(since the boats will work best with light crew this next part may be worthless)
light skipper width = max width +(160x8.5/skipper weight-8.5)
any skipper caught cheating on light skipper width may exonerate themselves by sailing the next regatta with no tiller extension)

Class legal Prindle 15, Supercat 15, any aquacat, and ? can race under 14 rule. Non class legal sails must conform to max sail area

Note to rules: These rules are wbeing written to make having fun easier and to get more boats on the water. The were rules written when all boats involved are old designs or something cobbled together in a garage, if this changes the rules may have to be revised
_____________________________________________________________________________


In case you are wondering why I bothered with this?

It started when I bought some old catamaran books and discovered there used to be a lot of ~14ft catamarans, some of which looked fast. I started wondering what happened to them.

Now I am building a 14ft tunnelhull/catamaran for the Wed Night Races in Houston.
CARL BOHANNON, HOUSTON, TEXAS
Posted By: Mary

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 07:27 PM

I love it, Carl -- the "experimenters" class.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the cheap-little-boat class became THE development class, accessible to and sailable by women, children and old people -- and yet providing an outlet for the tinkerer that lives in all of us?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 08:20 PM

The greatest part being that I can actually see undertaking the scratch construction of my own 14' boat. That would be a hoot!
Posted By: Wouter

That is exactly what the Moths have done - 02/04/04 09:02 PM


That is exactly what the Moths have done

Very interesting class the Moths

Wouter
Posted By: Mary

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 09:02 PM

Carl,
Will it be possible to have at least a roller-furling headsail, like a hooter/screacher? This might be important if only because the new ISAF youth boat is going to have a spinnaker. An actual spinnaker would be tough for a single-hander, but a roller-furling reacher is something even an old lady like me could handle.

Anyway, then this Formula 14 class could also serve as a trainer class for the younger kids that are going to move up to the official youth boat with spinnaker. And the kids would also get the benefit of all the wisdom of us old people -- yeah, right, after they beat the pants off us out on the race course.

Oh, well, never mind. It was just a thought.
Posted By: carlm

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/04/04 10:05 PM

could ya slip in the Nacra 450
Posted By: Sycho15

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/05/04 05:26 AM

Dont forget my favorite 14' boat- the Trac 14!

Also, isn't there a "Cheshire Cat" out by the Isotope's manufacturer. It's supposedly a full-blown miniature racer.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/05/04 06:54 AM

yes the chesire I think is a 13' boat.

its pretty cute.
Posted By: carlbohannon

A reply - 02/05/04 06:10 PM

In response to Mary:

Under the rules I proposed , a hooter is a "other sail". "other sail" could literally be anything or any combination. I used 150 ft2 to cover a small jib and a hooter or spin. Sailing open class under US Sailing Portsmouth rules, a Hooter and a Spin are treated the same. There is no problem with using a hooter in NA. Sailing under texel rules you would take a hit for a hooter.

I would really like to see a boat that anyone could sail. For years have watched women crew struggle to transition from crew to skipper in catamarans and finally give up because of the physical demands. A couple of years ago I was surprised to see a woman I thought had dropped out of sailing, with a Vanguard 15. I asked her why the monohull and she showed me how she could take from the storage rack to sailing and back, by herself, anytime she wanted. In recent years I have become interested in a boat for me. Hoisting a 31 foot mast lost it's allure years ago.

I think mast height is the key element. This will determine righting weight, ease of raising the mast, and stability. It will indirectly drive weight and structural loads. With unlimited mast height, designs will eventually move to the limits of stability or the physical capabilities of the crew. In general, the shorter the mast the more stable in puffy, windy, choppy conditions. For example, Waves and Hobie 14's start to come alive under conditions 5.5 uni's start looking at the beach.


In response to Wouter:

Yes there is lot of Moth in this. The problem I have with the moth is: the current favorites are about the most unstable boats I can imagine. They banned the catamaran configuration in the 70's when the Tunnelhulls started taking over. (think of a 50 lbm Laser Vortex or Hobie Bravo.) I think they might lead the world in small catamaran design if they had continued. Also the Moth homebuilders seem to be the masters of creating super high tech, cheap.

To everyone:

if you want to get this thing going, start cheap. Write some basic rules, set up a class association that provides nothing but an emailed membership certificate and negotiate a Portsmouth number probably based on a Mystere or a Hobie Dragoon. Then in a couple of years, check back and see if there is enough interest to expand or even to continue.

Finally keep the humor in it. We are doing this for fun and we are not competing for anything of value.
Posted By: sail6000

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/05/04 09:49 PM


Excellent -in all regards , great intent .

Don,t forget the Catyak -

Don,t make fun of 14 s either ,-they are great.
Great John , Mary good ideas as always ,Carl B good rules outline !

This sounds GREAT ,-good basic simple rules for all 14s
some 15s ?
have a SC 15 ,-its really a fun boat ,-I,ve taken it out in high wind conditions and weather on the little lake we're on and just had the best time with it pushing it to its extreme limits ,--where it would pitchpole ,-flip , etc etc ,-If you really want to know and understand a particular boat take it out {wear some padding} and good pfd and test it to extreme ,flip it pitchpole it stand out on the bows and submerge them in seas ,-it eliminates apprehension and builds confidence in knowing the limits and not being afraid of pushing to hard or a capsize if you make an error . Highly recommend doing this ,take a football type friend along . A 14 -15 can be an amazingly fast seaworthy craft with proper proportional sail area design and balance and crew not afraid of it.

Take this F-14 -15 type class rule and think of applying it in larger context -
if you would --
Should this type of racing and class be encouraged in each length category ? YES of course it should ,-what could be more fun and get more people out and involved .

-
In the 14 proposed F class how do we assure fair fun competition and that boats race equally and have a chance to win given diverse existing 14 designs ? --
Just as proposed !! ,- set basic Length beam weight and sail area ,-then define minor design options and variables from there , add spin snuffer systems ,get a new class designated same size sq top main if desired then options per design within outlined rules concerning wings boards foils etc -

If we used a design measurement rating system that uses Length beam weight and sail area this would largely already be accomplished !!! ISAF for cats is a good one
-improve it a bit for use in N A and use the best aspects of other rating ideas and systems ,--then temper this by checking times periodically per P rating system of comparing relative times --but by {equal ability crews} . --But again the main goal is to define classes by design measurement and encourage them to race in equal measurement groups {like 14s}.

Our priorities should be towards sport ,-not promoting one brand over another .If boat mfg. and one type brand boat dealer{most now sell a number of brand types} really want to increase their sales what better way than to increase total market ,-With the classification and modification target available per max sail area and spin snuffer system a new market potential opens ,-old boats become interesting new ones ,-younger people have an opportunity for an economical starter boat that still has all the bells and whistles {they can now add} and are encouraged to do ,-plus the move up and new market becomes more active due to total increase and partisipation .


The aspect of being able to get older existing boats out and revamping them very inexpensivly IS A GREAT ONE -
I found the S cat that had been parked under a tree in a neighbors backyard for approximately ten years ,-it was not recognizable due to moss and mold that had covered it ,ripped tramp ,-mice had eaten holes through the sails ,but the mast and rigging looked good as did rudders though all lines and sheets needed to be replaced ,blocks were good as was misc hardware . It turned out to be a SC 15 ,--promptly purchased for 100 bucks ,-SOLD !
-I called Tom {great guy} at Aquarious Sails Supercat and ordered a set a almost new sails very inexpensively and a new halyard system , Don at Salty Dog made a custom tramp with storage pockets and spin bag built in and picked up new sheets ,-Lots of cleaning , a little ding repair and a few rudder bolts later and we were sailing at a coat of about 600 total !!
I tryed a larger spin snuffer system on it ,but need to order one the correct size ,-What a great boat

I also have a H-18 I,d like to do the same with and race with snuffer spin ---in a more open 18 spin type class -
maybe a sub class of F-18s

And race the Inter 20 but would prefer a Formula 20 class
as per Formula 20 forum .
Thinking of using a Nacra 6/0 platform --basic hulls boards etc and using the Inter 20 cf mast and sailplan on it ,-- racing the Atlantic 1000 as a Formula 20 -
suppose some might call it a Nacrinter 6/0 .

Similar combinations of hulls mast and rig rudder board componants are possible in any boat in any length category .
I have 3 boys {our own fleet} if we all got a singlehander ,-and would like to get them going more this season on inexpensive boats they can work on themselves .
Many catsailors out there, based on this 14 class concept, would enjoy the same ,it seems it is very much the preference of most .
Posted By: samevans

Re: -not again - 02/05/04 11:26 PM

My God Carl,
Can't you let ANYBODY have a thread without you dumping your NEF20(non-existant formula) crap on them?
What does your old H-18 have to do with this discussion?
Your same old speech about a new handicap system (which you are too lazy to develop).
What does your touching story about the SC 15 have to do with anything?
Posted By: sail6000

Re: -not again - 02/06/04 12:40 AM

My God Sam,-quote

"Can't you let ANYBODY have a thread without you dumping your crap on them?"
nice sammy -if you have some personal problem directly with me please use the private e ,-I,ve never met you ,- and have no idea what your problem is . Very tired of personal derogatory insinuations as to character.

sam>>What does your touching story about the SC 15 have to do with anything?

If you read ? the SC 15 is mentioned as part of this proposed class.--
Generally a sailing forum is for fellow sailors to share their experiences ,ideas, concepts , idealy in some constructive manner to improve the sport ,-
not personal attack because you can not comprehend basic fact ,-like the 15 being part of this proposed class.

Tell us Sam since you choose to make public characterizations ,-do the people in your local government munisipality that you work with know you get on public sailing forums and personally attack others for no reason other than they responded to a potential class of boat they own and are interested in for their children and that simply offered the idea that an expanded version be available for others in various length categories ?
as per 18s and 20 .

That is the obvious pertainant corelation ,

sam>>Your same old speech about a new handicap system (which you are too lazy to develop).

The ISAF for cats is not new ,-It would be simple to adopt and could be improved for use in N A ,
-It is not up to any individual to develop a rating system

Some areas for improvement and concepts were listed last year .

ISAF rating states --
"Whilst it is accepted that the ideal Rating system is one which uses historical results, a Portsmouth Yardstick type system, it has proved difficult to obtain sufficient data to validate such a system around the World. The SCHRS enables new designs to be rated quickly, and allows International regattas to take place with a common handicapping system for many types of Catamaran.

The purpose of these regulations are to enable trampoline multihulls of various types to race together on a comparative basis, and to protect the interests of the owners in keeping development under control without hindering further research.

It is recognized that one-design and level rating are generally a more realistic test of sailing skill. For events organised under these regulations, organizing authorities may consider separate arrangements for one-design or level rating classes present in sufficient numbers."
end quote -

The interest and goal should be to use a system that encourages good class racing ,-these groups as proposed per Carl B for a F-14-15 are excellent .

Please send a private e in the future ,
or please call -
thank you
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: -not again - 02/06/04 01:10 AM

Guys,

Please respect the intent of this thread. If you have personal issues, toddle on over to the open forum.

Respectfully,

Bob Curry

Posted By: dannyb9

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/06/04 01:10 AM

i'm into building kayaks now- 15' hull at 32 lbs and i can picture a 130# boat with ply hulls and ply wingmast within the parameters. and very inexpensive, bring it on, i'd love a singlehander that weighs as much as a laser, kickass !: )
Posted By: Jake

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/06/04 01:14 AM

how in the world do you build a wing mast from plywood?
Posted By: John Williams

Specs on some of the boats... - 02/06/04 03:34 AM

Mike Fahle pulled together some specs on some of the boats we're talking about - http://mystereowners.org/mystere/43specs.html

The 450 is 14'10" - too big, or get 'em all in?

Sail area - main and jib (or main only) up to 130 sq. ft.? That gets the 4.3 but not the 14 Turbo... I'd hate for the Turbo guys to have to buy new sails other than a screecher... or should we just have a TOTAL sail area limit - then the Turbo is in, just with a smaller headsail, which they'd be adding anyway. Say, 282 sq. ft. total sail area excluding mast, mast height limit of 24 ft. I picked 282 because that the area for the 4.3, which is the only 14-footer with jib, main and spin already on the boat. Simpler, cheaper (no current sails to replace, fewer new sails to buy).

Pick a crew weight or not, give 'em all a number around 78 and let's try it out - race each other straight up, but try to start with other classes to see if the number is close.

There's a gaggle of scurvy dogs in the OSYC clubhouse RIGHT NOW talking about this, ready to pull some 14s out of retirement!

Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: Specs on some of the boats... - 02/06/04 12:13 PM

John,

I've been collecting data and would like to talk with you about this concept over the weekend. I sent you my phone number the other day to your catsailor email address. Carl Bohannon has some good ideas and I have everything printed out!

Bob
Posted By: dannyb9

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/06/04 01:43 PM

plywood wingmasts arent new, the cross section looks like a model airplane wing with a spar at the widest part, and a smaller spar at the leading and trailing edges, sheathed with ply and glass or carbon. maybe the new class, as in model airplane contests, could be called 1/2 A : ) should be simple to build.
Posted By: dannyb9

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/06/04 01:46 PM

hey bob curry my 14 T is languishing with a broken comp tip, know where i can get a mast?
Posted By: davidtilley

Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? - 02/06/04 03:30 PM

How about an all American 14 square? (no metric metres here).
14 feet long, max 14 feet wide and max 14 x 14 = 196 sq feet of sail.
Forget about fair. At a skinny 220#, 14 feet aint gonna be fair to me 80% of the time, but I wont complain.
Seriously, this is a good idea, because there are some radical hull shapes that work only on short, high volume hulls, so this may be an oportunity to make a shorter,cheaper,kinda gentler, fast enough boat to revive sailing.
Also, cheaper and easier allows quicker development, (like electronics).
I'll further bore you with my favorite joke now. "If Mechanical Engineering had advanced as fast as Electronic Engineering, you could buy a Rolls Royce for two cents, and it would be the size of a matchbox". (yes, it is relevant to the thread)
Posted By: sail6000

Re: - - 02/06/04 04:16 PM

Hi Bob

I,m very interested in this class as a SC 15 owner which was mentioned as part of it along with the P-15 and others .

My post was enthusiastic and positive and related my experience in reviving an older cat very inexpensively ,
Idealy I would like my boys ages 12 9 & 7 to begin in a catamaran class w spin that we could modify and work on together .
This proposed 14-15 class sounds ideal .
The alternative is joining one of the local dingy sailing clubs to get them going ,-University of Mich ,sailing club
or Midwest Sailing Center.

This is a great Formula 14-15 class concept as John noted . There is no reason this same concept should not be applied in each length category -14s 16 18 20s

The basis for this 14-15 class as proposed, if read correctly, is a very informal fun rule outline Formula class setting basic Length beam weight sail area mast height etc .

The model it is based on is Formula class concepts as similarly started a decade ago per Formula 18 . The Formula 18 was the concept of a group of catsailors that much like the group here offered their ideas and proposed concepts and rules outline for a potential fun popular class of cat. Since these classes are based on basic boat specifications -Length beam weight sail area -mast hgt .etc in design measurement .
One big advantage they had was already being familiar with design measurement per ISAF rating which uses sail area- Length weight etc to rate boats , here was an excellent guideline of basic boat specs. and how sail area ,or weight or L etc effect speed and rating number which the understanding of logically then lead to Formula Classes like this 14-15 class now being proposed .

It seems a much more integral benificial rating system long term that helps and encourages good class racing and helps people understand the progression into similar race groups or idealy classes like this one by providing basic guidelines as to ideal max. class specs. that boats in length category may be modified to giving each nearly identical basic speed potential. Formula Class rules that encourage all boats to modify equally and race first across the win wins being the goal ,-with similar rating system guideline to help establish them .

The F-18 and A-Class being two of the best examples currently of this type of limited development class ,each length or type having there own preferred variations on the concept theme of design measurement.

In simply proposing concepts -as per similar interest in other length category , or making others aware of another optional rating system available that may be much more benificial longterm , no disrespect was ever intended towards any .

The intent is positive ,as always ,
All the best Bob

Carl

Posted By: Wouter

facts - 02/06/04 04:29 PM




>>The Formula 18 was the concept of a group of UK catsailors that much like


Carl, the F18 idea and concept was a French idea made succesful by three small (french - italian) cat builders. Mattia, Alado and a third that I can't remember.

http://www.f18-international.org/history.htm

Wouter
Posted By: sail6000

Re: mia culpa - 02/06/04 04:43 PM

thanks for the correction --my error

Read the UK catsailor site too often
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/
like this site brought to my attention by a number of U K catsailors like Colin --who wrote sail wave and provides it for us all ,--John P -designer of the Stealth and Formula class cats ,Grob designer of the 4 hull foldable cat , and a few others met at events or by e .
Posted By: RickWhite

What happened to the 14 idea? - 02/06/04 06:16 PM

This thread started off talking about an F14 Class and now talking bigger, better, wider, more sail area, and Lord knows what all.
I thought Carl Bohanon was on the right track and keep it 14' and under.
Geez, maybe I can soup up my Wave and stay near you big 14 guys.
As the acronym says: KISS
Rick
Posted By: Seeker

Re: What happened to the 14 idea? - 02/06/04 06:43 PM


Hi Rick

I think it’s K.I.S., if you add the second S you have already made it too complicated…LOL

Bob
Posted By: jpayers

Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/06/04 10:34 PM

Hey Guys,
I think the Catamaran Community needs a small boat that can be raced singlehanded. Everyone has seen the popularity of the Hobie Waves. I have rented a Wave and thought it was a great knock around boat but didn'tI could race it seriously without modifications.
I race the 16ft Isotope and in gusty winds and on several occasions it has sent my 225lb butt flying into the sail. Last year I took out a new Cheshire Cat it didn't have me hiked out the whole time, i didn't pull my arms out on the mainsheet, and the boat stayed under control even when the gusts hit it. It was an awsome boat that had all the pointing and tacking capabilities of a larger boat only was easier to control. I thought it would be perfect for a racing women's singlehander. The downside of the boat was that it takes just as much labor, materials, gear, as a Isotope which would probably put it in the 7k-8k range a far cry from the other plastic boats.
I think one of the things that is hurting the F-16 classes is the constant battle to create a singlehanded and 2-up boat and to be able to compete against each other. In a F-14 Class it would be only singlehanded. Another good Idea would be to only accept boats on a one design basis.

Have a council choose existing boats demand they stick to there one design rules and sail.
Hobie 14 with turbo jib.
Mystere 4.3 with jib
Nacra 5.0 main only
Cheshire with Jib

There would always be a threat of somone building a custom f-14 to beat everyone but I don't see anyone going out and dishing out 12k to race a small boat. Unless they suck as a sailor in other classes but all the money in the world can't help that.
By the way if you search for Isotope or Cheshire you can see the boats.
J.P. the Terrible
Isotope 186 The Shark Boat
Posted By: RickWhite

Geez! You omitted the Wave - 02/06/04 11:37 PM

Why not Waves.., they qualify
Rick
Posted By: RickWhite

To Those Interested, do we want a Forum! - 02/06/04 11:40 PM

When the F18 and F16 and F20 were trying get going, we offered a special Forum for them to debate things, write bylaws and all sorts of stuff.
Would you all care for the same thing with the F14 Class. And would it not be funny the USA came up with a unique formula class before Europe?

Rick
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 12:05 AM

Please, make it an 'development' class and not a collection of one designs as suggested.
Cost on a 14 foot boat should be manageable. Perhaps make some rules about where carbon (the large cost driver these days) may be used.

I dont think we will se a fleet of 14 foot C-class knock-offs anyway
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 02:53 AM

Okay Y'all, here's the deal....

14' and under.

Bob
Posted By: davidtilley

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 03:33 AM

Here! Here!
Measured either from front to back, or back to front.
Posted By: Sycho15

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 04:48 AM

My opinion:
Length: 14' or less
Beam: 8.5' wide (as much as I agree that wider is better, wider is also more complicated and more work, which goes against what it seems we're really trying to do here. Add wings for a wilder recreational ride, but figure out how to race without them).
Mast length: 24'- these things are nice and light and the extrusions are pretty cheap. No real need for spreaders. I am not against someone showing up with an all-carbon mast, and will gladly race against them with a salvaged H14 stick. Carbon masts may even be relatively cheap to build at these sizes and strengths.
Sail Area: How much sail can you crowd onto a 24' stick? I really wouldn't want to sail a uni-rig if it could be avoided. A roller-furling headsail that could be used up- and down-wind would be great. Something like a really big jib on a pole
Weight: 150-200lbs should cover it, boats could be built in the 100 or less range with exoctic materials that are out of the ability of the average DIY builder-sailor, and out of the price-range of someone just getting into the sport.
Adjustments: I'd give free reign on adjustment ability. I've sailed and raced on Prindle 19s and also on my G-Cat 5.7M. Aside from a few basics, all the extra adjustments just seem to add weight and complexity. A lot of lines to pull would confuse and scare away new people to these boats and this sport. Allow their boats to grow with their skill, and as they get better they can add whatever adjustments they feel they need to.

I would like to comment that I think the Cheshire is an excellent design, but I cannot fathom why it is so narrow (6'5") The cross-beams look like simple mast extrusions and easy enough to replace with wider versions. Also, I'm sure the manufacturer wouldn't mind widening the boat to 8.5' if it meant making the sale.

Also- especially for home-builders, the Quattro 14 design is already out: Quattro 14
Posted By: TheoA

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 05:18 PM

Lots of sail! BIG hulls too (so I can race @215)
This sounds like fun. I might have to go rent a wave from someone and try it out. Would have to have a spi or hooter though I think for it to be "fun"
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 05:34 PM

Hi TheoA,
The Wave really is a Hoot in heavy air, but also with a Hooter. That added sail area really makes it come alive. Last year I took second place in the Conch Cup with a Hooter and would have won had they used the right handicap number. Lots of boats in that race as well.

I know in some of the open regattas the Waves and 14s have started together and the 14s are a bit faster, although most of the Waves beat most of the 14s. Don't think that is boat speed, however. Most of the Wave folks are really hot sailors and the 14 folks were kind of new to the boat.
Had Bob Curry been there we would have seen him only briefly at the start.

It took me about a year to get the Hooter to work right on the Wave, but once I found the right dimensions it was fast upwind, downwind and reaches in winds up to around 12 mph -- after that it was too much wind for the Hooter.
Although, at that time I had not used the trapeze. Hmmm! With the Trap it could probably handle a lot more wind -- maybe footstraps on the rear beam?

This class sounds like a lot of fun.
Rick
Posted By: jpayers

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/07/04 07:24 PM

Rick,
Sorry for the Wave slam I just didn't think a Stock Wave could race against PN .77-.80 which brngs to my next great idea.

I see that even as this discussion evolves we maybe falling into the exact same problems that the other F-classes jumped into. We are making boat specs requirements and rules before we even have a class yet. That is like excluding paying members to a club that hasen't been formed yet. The first most important goal to this class is to hold a race and see who is actualy game to show up then decide what direction to take the class. (Going to apologize ahead of time Wouter) There is a big difference between who actually shows up and races as a class than who types the most on the forum. It is way more impotant to have a 15 boat class than a good set of rules.

With that in mind we could set up a temporary status of rules. I propose singlehanded portsmith ratings of .77 to .80 boats have to be raced according to one design rules with slower boats H-14 and Wave allowing modifications such as Square tops etc. I would take Rick's opinion over mine as far as what it would take to get a H-14 or Wave in the .77-.80 range. I also think as a class it is a good idea to get these two involved just by the shear numbers.

In case you haven't noticed I am bias to the Cheshire. Back in the early 60's the Cheshire cat was designed and built by Frank Meldau. As a small boat it was way ahead of it's time going to regatta's that had boats in the 20'ft range but was looked at like an aqua-cat. Here we are 40 years later and I think the Cheshire may have a new lease on life with this f-14 class.

If we are all serious about this I could probably make it to the Lake Hartwell Regatta this May.

J.P. the Terrible
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 02:39 PM

Hi Carl,
I read that the target PN for this class is in the 80 to 77 range. Your SC15 is already there, old PN = 78.
The PN difference between the SC17 and SC15 was 5 points in the 1980s, 78-73 = 5. At the Tradewinds Race a few weeks ago the ARC17 sailed to, demonstrated, a PN of 70.1. The major difference between the SC17 and ARC17 is square top main and self tacking jib which has a much longer jib luff. Apply this sailplan scheme to the SC15 and you might have a SC15 capable of sailing to a PN of 75. Then add spinnaker and knock it on down to 72. No new technology required.
It sounds like many people interested in this class are talking about taking an old existing platform and working on the rig and sailplan. That's fine, and it is also low cost. What will throw a big bucket of cold water on this class is for someone to build from scratch a superlight weight boat that sails away from everything else because of its weight, not because it is a better design. To get this class going and keep it alive, it must have a minimum weight that is easily attainable. It sounds to me like a rule that says you must use an existing production platform would not be out of line with most sailors objectives. To keep the cost down, keep the minimum weight up.
Good luck,
Bill
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. - 02/08/04 03:11 PM

Hey Guys,
What makes a fast boat and a boat that sails easy and smooth is BALANCE and COORDINATION of the parts that make up the system. You can't simply add sail area and have a boat that sails well. If it is a board boat, you have to go up in board area with increased sail area. If it is a boardless boat, the best you can do is rake the mast back and go up in rudder area with increased sail area. Think balance and coordination of the whole system. That makes a fast boat.
Good dreaming,
Bill
Posted By: RickWhite

New Forum Dedicated to the F14 Now Running! - 02/08/04 04:02 PM

OK, Folks,
You now have an exclusive Forum for the discussion and development of the F14 Class. The new Forum is named Formula 14 Forum and is located at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=forum14

Of course, you may also reach it by simply clicking on "Main Index" at the top and toggle down to the Forum.

Hoping this helps move the discussions along.
Rick
Posted By: sail6000

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 04:27 PM

hI BILL

Agree --a min. boat weight is important ,-weight is always a main factor of boat performance ,-this factor in the equation increases as a percentage as relative boat size goes down .
Some other class examples evolve into category one and category two sub class with weight variation min. per A cLASS - at 150 Lb Min boat weight in category one and 200 in category 2 --the 18 SQ--some mono classes -- etc.

A new lightweight hi aspect ratio mainsail only version HT 14 type with deep boards and rudders that weighs 50 Lbs less would certainly be much faster potentially than an older H-14 w spin .
It would be much like racing a Formula-18 with an 18 Ht
One weighs nearly 400 -the other under 300 Lbs --2 categories in that length become a necessity ,though all may start together numbers permitting at an event .

It sounds like Carl B --Bob ,-and a few others will establish basic rules and boat specs. It may be a 14 max length ,--not 15 ,--that seems reasonable ,--the class must be clearly defined . There are F 16 -18 --20 classes existing or proposed .
The other method some classes use when boat weights are close to equalize potential speeds is use a larger allowed sail area as compensation for the heavier weight or boat weight,--usually a slightly larger jib and larger spin area for the heavier boat ,-as weight is a factor downwind moreso than up on the race course.

Crew weight is a tough one ---suggest no crew min. weight ,--but just require any crew to be capable of righting .
If your willing ,they should consult with you on basic sail area to weight guidelines or the more technical questions on rules . You can readily provide the basic proven engineering -design equations to substantiate the rules outline and minimum weight --to max sail area sail area questions .

It is a tough challenge to leave out individual bias and personal preferences based on your particular boat and a rule that may favor it . --It seems setting good basic engineering design measurement maximum specifications and then allowing all boat types to equally modify to those as they wish or to what extent is the best method .

Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 06:38 PM

All,

FORMULA 14 RULES are posted on the new F14 SITE. Thanks for all your inputs!!

Bob Curry
FORMULA 14 Class Director
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 08:13 PM

Hi Carl,
It sounds like the class rule makers have already stepped in some. First they take a class that is only an idea at this time and divide it into two divisions. Nothing divided by two is still nothing. Don't divide the class yet. Let something get started and then if there is a different demand with some weight to it, add to the class rules to accomodate it later. Get started with one goal first; get critical mass.
Reading the posts so far, sailors want to take existing platforms and modify them some, like improve the sail plan and add a spinnaker and retractor system and "let's go racing". It reminds me of a 1950's stock car. Take a standard production US automobile and take the upholstery
out, tape up the lights, add a roll bar, take the air cleaner off the carburetor and "let's go racing".
That 150 pound class minimum weight is a scaled down all carbon A class boat that costs $15,000.00 US Dollars. What these posts are talking about is a $1500 dollar boat finished and ready to go racing.
Class organizers, listen to the people.
Bill
Posted By: Mary

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 08:24 PM

Bill,
Where do you see that there are two divisions? I don't get that at all from reading the rules.
Posted By: fuzzy

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 08:55 PM

bill,
the 150 lbs is for the skipper.....try 240 lbs for the boat...and i do not see 2 classes......
Posted By: sail6000

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 10:01 PM

Hi Terry & Mary

my error ,-I mentioned 2 possible weight categories as an option for the 14 class ,--then Bill responded -

I made the same error in reading another poster's comments on including 15s ,--but the max length is 14.3 ft only .

I,m out cutting off a foot of stern on my 15 as I type this

The 14 forum looks good ,--a basic rules outline is posted though has a 150 min crew weight ,---the average female is 120 ,---hmmm . average youth sailor 110 hmmmm .
Posted By: Mary

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 10:17 PM

Carl,
Before you start cutting, note that the maximum length is not 14.3 feet, it is 14 feet, 3 inches.
Posted By: TheoA

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 10:26 PM

I wish there was more debate before the rules were "set".

The width, length, and min weight simply seem like they are geared to allow H14's to be the only competative "stock" boat. When and more importantly why were these rules "used"?
Posted By: David Parker

Testing the F14 concept - Mystere 4.3 vs Bob's H14 "Maxi" - 02/08/04 10:41 PM

I've raced against both the M4.3 (DPN 78) and Bob’s H14 Maxi (DPN 82) and I am hugely impressed with the H14M speed, given the difference in hull age. I do not believe the Portsmouth numbers for either of these boats due to lack of real race results HEAD TO HEAD.

If the F14 class purposes to run without corrections, how about testing the concept with these existing boats? Since both the M4.3 and the H14 Maxi are available in the Panhandle and you guys sail all year, how about a shoot out?

John W.(M4.3 sailor), if you don't think you can sail to Bob's level, maybe you could put some Rock Star on your M4.3 to keep naysayers from claiming the results are not fair. Randy vs Bob…that ought to draw some attention!

Go, Bob! Show ‘em your Blaster!

David
Dunedin, FL
Mystere 5.0XL

(Since the Main Forum discussion is still lively on this topic, I have double posted with the F14 forum)
Posted By: Sycho15

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 10:51 PM

This seems more like it's being geared as a CLASSIC 14 class. It was my understanding that FORMULA meant a class that could improve the performance of a type of boat (in this case a 14' boat). However, the rules listed already limit the class to boats that are slower and heavier than most 14' boats out there, and certainly all 14' boats designed for racing after 1970.
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/08/04 11:03 PM

Bill

My original rules were based on some modeling and a boat that I am building. The rules were not optimized for existing boats.

A scratch built 14, with no min boat weight, would enjoy a huge advantage. I proposed allowing boats under 240 lbs, a smaller max sail area, 120 ft2. This was apparently not accepted.

This pretty much kills me. I would be looking at ~100 lb of corrector weight on hulls designed for a 300-350 lb total boat and skipper. With 100 lb corrector, I suspect, the boat would be doggy and oscillate around the corrector mass in chop.

My boat was not designed for F14. It was designed as an updated tunnelhull, to give me a multihull to race against Portsmouth dinghies on the Wed Nights. It is 14ft long, 5 ft wide, using a Laser rig to get me on the water by mid April and then a carbon windsurfer/Moth/skiff derived rig by probably by June. Final rig will be 100 ft2 main with a ~100 roller furling downwind sail. Target weight 100-120 lbs. However, to preserve my options I added 1 in of hull height, more bow volume and designed the structure to handle an 8.5 ft beam and a larger rig. I am probably going to increase the beam to 7ft, mostly for my comfort.


I agree and disagree on boat weight however. First, I agree, for a production builder a 100-150lbm F14 would be really expensive $12,000-15,000 easy.If an aerospace firm built it, it would be $100K but it would only weigh ~80Lbm Second, I disagree, for a homebuilder it's not that simple. You could scale a Unicorn A-class and end up with 150 lbm F14. I am using strip planked cedar with Kevlar inside and glass outside mostly because I could not get the hull shape I wanted with plywood. If I were really careful about extra material I could probably cut 20 lbs off the boat. A far as cost, I should call this the ebay boat. Most of the expensive parts were purchased on ebay, over a period of years, really cheap or they are leftovers from old projects. You can't do that on a production line. Up to a point, a homebuilder has an advantage. However as soon as the designs stabilize and there is a big enough market the production builder will eat them alive.

Carl
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 11:40 PM

Hi Carl,
Don't be too quick with the saw on the bow. It is very easy to move a transom forward a few inches. Also for a slightly short boat, it is easy to extend the existing hull shape by bending a piece of formica or bendable plywood around the outside of a hull aft end and then let it extend aft to the desired overall hull length. Next wax the inside surface and build the extension inside this quickie mold.
Bill
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/08/04 11:46 PM

Mary,
Does 14.3ft mean 14ft and 3 inches or does 14.3ft mean 14ft and 3.6 inches?
Bill
Posted By: Jake

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/09/04 12:14 AM

The rule states 14' 3" - I think some of the confusion comes from the Mystere 4.3 (meters)
Posted By: Mary

Re: -14 .3 classification - 02/09/04 12:19 AM

You're correct, Jake. I just talked to Bob about that, and he said it is 14 feet 3 inches, period.
Posted By: Sycho15

Weight Debate - 02/09/04 01:10 AM

The Cheshire Cat is not a new design. The Quattro 14 is also not a new design. Both of these are advertised in the 170lb range.

Rick White's Hobie Wave has a 20' mast, a 7' beam and no trapeze. He uses 187sq.ft. of sail and does not seem to be overpowered by it. Besides, a quick pull of a line and all that Hooter rolls up to tame the boat. I cannot see why an 8 to 8.5' wide boat with a 24' mast and trapeze system couldn't easily carry 200 sq. ft. max.
Posted By: TheoA

Re: Weight Debate - 02/09/04 01:38 AM

I have the same thoughts as you Synchro. Seems as though this new class that was created ?!?!? simply caters to those that sail H14's and want to tweak them.

My biggest problem is that:

at 225lbs, on a H14, I'm uncompetitive under most (if not all) conditions. If the weight was lower, and could use a wider beam, I think it would open the door up for a broader base of boats to be used. This would in turn attract more sailors, etc...

I still would like to know why Bob was appointed, and if he came up with these rules all by himself or what? I understand Bob is an awesome H14 sailor, and intend no disrespect, but I though class rules should be developed by the people that want to make it a class.?!?
Posted By: John Williams

Oh well... - 02/09/04 01:44 AM

Never mind. Thought the 4.3 would be part of the basis for a box rule, but instead, with the proposed rule, I'd need to add a boom, bigger sails, and take off the 'chute, which is the best part of sailing the smaller boat. Or buy a H14 or rig a Wave like Rick's. I like my boat - guess I'm off the team roster.
Posted By: Sycho15

Splinter Cell - 02/09/04 02:10 AM

Well, is this a free country or what? If we don't want to conform to the current set of F14 rules (which as I understand are still under debate), we can just make our own rules and a F14HP class. "High Performance" doesn't have to mean "High Tech"
Posted By: TheoA

Re: Splinter Cell - 02/09/04 02:14 AM

Sounds fine by me! I just don't quite get the current rules. Your previous post sums up exactly how I feel. I don't wanna sail a H14 at all, in a big wind I'd sink it

Now whos gonna be the F14HP class pres :-D
Posted By: Jake

Re: Oh well... - 02/09/04 04:02 AM

Hang on! I saw that there was no mention of a spinnaker but it did say "headsail" and a headsail is technically defined as "Any sail set forward of the foremast." So.....the spinnaker on the 4.3 is still in - right? Or does it not fall within the overall sail area rules?

I like the rules except for the sail area restriction. Heck, make it like the ozzy 18's - no sail restriction...he who hang-eth on-eth longest wins. Seriously though, make a mast height restriction but leave the sail configuration open. I have been chased closely by Rick and his Hooter Wave before (and I was on a 5.2 and placed 3rd!).

Building a 14' Formula boat will be high on my list of "to do's" if this thing takes off.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Oh well... - 02/09/04 04:20 AM

Hey Jake -

Sure, I'm allowed to have the 'chute, just not the main or jib... or vice versa. The 160 sq. ft. limit leaves me with way too much or way too little. My existing jib is as high up the mast as I can go, so I can't rob a 5.5 without adding a longer forestay and a new hound higher up the mast. Then, with the new jib, I'd need a barberhauler, 'cause my jib blocks are fixed on the front beam. I'd better add a boom, too, if I expect to keep up...

Too much drilling and riveting on a perfectly good design already. Might as well get another boat. My feedback on the draft rule was more sail area and no minimum weight, or a formula to reduce corrector crew weight if you exceed boat weight.

I'll be watching, too - it's a good idea, even if I can't play.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mary

Don't give up yet! - 02/09/04 10:44 AM

I have a feeling that there may be exciting NEW news coming this morning about the Formula 14 rules that will make everybody happy -- well, almost everybody.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 11:31 AM



>>That 150 pound class minimum weight is a scaled down all carbon A class boat that costs $15,000.00 US Dollars. What these posts are talking about is a $1500 dollar boat finished and ready to go racing


Try tortured 3 mm and 4 mm marine ply. Gets you easily to 160 lbs on a 14 footer and costs less than a glass boat as well (lets alone carbon). There will be no 1500 US boats as sails mast and block will cost more than that.

Let we not forget that torture ply boats of low weight are already build by many sailors. Think paper tiger, arrow and sorts.

Besides Carbon is not more expensive than glass; major cost is the labour anyway.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 11:34 AM



240 lbs (108 kg) for the boat ?

Okay; than the Australians are out as well. No way they are going to build or design a 14 foot boat that weigths 240 lbs or more.

Wouter
Posted By: Stewart

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 12:04 PM

Quote
That 150 pound class minimum weight is a scaled down all carbon A class boat that costs $15,000.00 US Dollars. What these posts are talking about is a $1500 dollar boat finished and ready to go racing.


Bill, have you looked at how light a high quality builder can make a strong light boat without being all carbon.. AHCP can and does build foam and glass "A"s under the weight limit.. Now I may agree with you no US manufacturer can build to there standards.. But I can assure you a aussie home builder can and do build light ply boats..
Posted By: phill

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 01:05 PM

Stewart,
I'm probably telling you what you already know but the Glass/foam Paper Tigers come in at min weight without the use of carbon. That is complete platform weighing 50kg.
Ready to race would be around 70kg.= around 150lb

A couple of years back all carbon/kevlar platform cost $4,500 Aus . That may have gone up a bit but still a finished boat would be nothing like $15,000 US.

Hell, I've got a Paper Tiger mould and there is 4.5sq metres of surface area per hull. Anyone out there wanting a $15,000US PT should give me a call. But it may be in their interest to do the numbers first.
Posted By: Bob_Curry

NEW F14 Rules! - 02/09/04 03:56 PM

Hey guys!

New rules on the F14 forum up for debate! We did listen to you and have reacted. Have fun!

Bob Curry
Posted By: John Williams

Hey! - 02/09/04 04:39 PM

I fit that box! Thanks, Bob - looks like I'm sailin'!
Posted By: Steve_Kwiksilver

Re: NEW F14 Rules! - 02/09/04 04:50 PM

Why not make it "open season" regarding design, weight, sail area, beam etc, but limit it to having an ISAF / pn number that is equal or within a very small tolerance. That way, a H14 sailor can chuck on big sails to compensate for being heavy, while it makes no sense to build an all-carbon boat down to very light weight, since all that means is a penalty in smaller sail area to bring the ISAf / PN number to within the tolerance. I like the "14ft X 14ft x 196sqf" rule proposed by someone earlier. WHo says it should only have 2 hulls ? Or that it can`t be 1 ? Just keep the numbers equal. That would be a REAL development formula class. Existing platforms could add racks if the 14ft beam proves to work. Quickly detachable for easy towing etc.
Make it the tinkerer`s class !

Oh, and hydrofoils too, please.

Cheers
STeve
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 04:52 PM

Hi Stewart,
Members of my sailing club in WPB, Fla. built Paper Tigers 20 years ago. They are an ecxellent design and very fast for their size.
The problem here in the US is that home built boats and kit boats went out of style 20 years ago. People don't do that anymore. It takes too long.
What sailors immediately began talking about here in the US on this forum was older production boats, close to 14ft long with new and larger and hopefully faster sail plans. That is one way to go. Another route is a paraller road to the F16HP class and F18HT class etc. I think a choice is facing the group. The lower the price of the boat, the faster and larger the class will grow. If you have to build your own boat to be competitive, the class will grow much more slowly in the US.
Bill
Posted By: Colin

Great Idea! - 02/09/04 04:54 PM

I like the new rules!

This is a boat that can fit in an ordinary garage - so homebuilding is a realistic option. In this small size (and single handed) a 150 pound structural weight would not require the use of advanced materials and processes to achieve.

Really cool: NO TRAILER IS NEEDED! Maybe 4 hulls would fit on a roof rack?

About controlling cost - maybe have a limit on the cost of hulls used and time to build new? Option to buy the winners mast and sails for a set price at the end of the season?

-colin
Posted By: Sycho15

Re: NEW F14 Rules! - 02/09/04 04:58 PM

If we were striving to keep the boats within a certain PN number, nobody would ever bother building a faster boat! True formula racing says "Within these guidelines, all boats are considered equal. First across the finish line wins." As stated before, I'd rather sail Portsmouth and sail fast, than build a boat that already has it speed limited by ratings or weight.
Under the current rules (which are still subject to change), a H14 owner can switch to H16 beams and mast, trapeze rack, and toss on a huge headsail to try and beat out the rest. There is a point where beam becomes excessive and the leeward hull is no longer able to support the loads placed on it. The 18sq. class found that 12' was about ideal for their length and sail-area.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Hey! - 02/09/04 05:11 PM

Excellent! The things that would inspire me for this class are as follows:

a) I can feasably build one in my (future) garage.
b) I want a boat with too much sail area - but on a boat that's small enough that it won't kill me.

This one is definitly on my to-do list ... right after I build my garage and get my RX-7 restored.
Posted By: Steve_Kwiksilver

Re: NEW F14 Rules! - 02/09/04 05:14 PM

Hi Sycho,

My intent was based on the other formula classes, but instead of limiting all aspects of design as they do, so that all boats end up being very similar & then have the same iSAF rating, let builders experiment with very open rules, but govern the development within EQUAL perormance rating, so everyone can build / put together what they think works or fits their budget, but they have the same performance as the next guy, so it`s like open class married to one-design. It acchieves the same thing as Formula classes (boats of similar PERFORMANCE racing against eachother.) The more traditional approach is to limit all aspects of the boat`s design, then all boats end up looking exactly alike, and in the end everyone migrates to the fastest type of boat in the class, much as has happened in F18 where most serious guys get Hobie Tigers. Full circle, we all go one-design racing all over again. I thought this class would be where guys could play with their ideas. Pegging a ISAF / PN number just controls cost.

Cheers
Steve
Posted By: Stewart

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 05:53 PM

Bill,
I have no challenge with the road of old production boats forming a class.. But please dont tell me that it would take $15,000 to build a light fast 14 foot boat.. Its just not true..
Also please dont tell me Aquarius couldnt.. You definately have the design skills.. I guess you wouldnt be associated with a company which cant produce a product to world class standards.. Thus if AHCP has been doing this for the last couple of decades can then Im sure Aquarius can..

As for not homebuilding.. well then the US designers may have a niche to fill.. To design a home built kit that could be tortured ply, or even, perhaps a kit of already cut foam/glass (kevlar or carbon?) panels... The builder builds a frame and tapes the hull together.. Im not a good maine architect but you are.. Its all within your capabilities..
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 06:08 PM

Hi Stewart,
The $15000 price comes from a new all carbon A cat with 2ft cut off each end. The A cat weighs 165pounds. The hull cross section of a 14ft cat could certainly be no smaller than an A cat because it has to support the same weight and it is 4ft shorter. The 14ft cat hulls would probably be a little fatter than the A cat hulls.
As far as a kit in the US goes: There is little to no market here. Few people build any type boats from scratch anymore. There is no nitch to fill here.
Bill
Posted By: Stewart

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 06:13 PM

Phill,
That doesnt surprise me at all..
Posted By: TheoA

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 08:02 PM

Quote
But please dont tell me that it would take $15,000 to build a light fast 14 foot boat..


It might if you add all the hours of labor in R&D, and then mark the product up to make a living. I'm sure it would be way more than that if the company only made a handful of boats. Which is what I like so much about this new class idea. It seems to favor homebuilders greatly at this point.

Are there some books you would recommend Bill that would be good for someone such as myself who wants to build a strong and light boat themselves?
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/09/04 10:07 PM

Let me jump in on what book to start with on building a light strong boat.

I would start with "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction"

From there you can try 1/8 scale tortured ply or strip plank models to see what it takes to build one and what shapes can be built.

Wests Systems on vacuum bagging is a good book

If you have friends in the Air Force try to get a copy of Composite Construction Repair Guide. This book has lots of pictures and some good basic guidelines.

A good article was something like Building a Unicorn A-Class Catamaran. If you find a copy, let me know I lost track of mine a couple of years ago.

Since building a boat is a hands on thing, I suggested building a couple of 1/8 and 1/4 scale models after you have read a few books
Posted By: Stewart

Should be asking Phill on this.. - 02/10/04 04:00 AM

Phill on this list may be better to reply as he has just co-designed the "Blade"..

For a light platform one below the proposed class spec.. You have two paths..

1) Tortured ply.. As Carl suggested check out "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".. Also study the Tiapan 4.9 web site especially their tips for home building.. Dont forget Phill's home page.. Ply Tiapans when well built are very competative.. As Bill stated in a previous post
Quote
Members of my sailing club in WPB, Fla. built Paper Tigers 20 years ago. They are an ecxellent design and very fast for their size.

Yet they were designed 3-4 decades ago.. Hell they arent even tortured ply but stitch and glue chined ply design.. Yet as Phill also stated they are built to under 150 lb..

2)composite.. Check out the UK Cherub website (male mold) and Javelins.org and their Virtual Javelin project.. Not sure but also look up the International Moth web sites (The Aussie one used to have building tips).. Yes some Moths are still built in ply.. With perhaps a weight inrease from 10 kg up 17 kg hull weight..

I know of a home built International 14 that was built over a winter by three guys.. Working every second weekend.. 1 cm foam over a male mold.. 200 gm twill carbon outer skin with a second layer around the plate (knee damage when righting).. Inner skin was 100 gm twill.. The false deck was similar but the whole upper skin was 2X 200 gm and a mate layer.. With a complicated (and heavy) system to rake the centreplate from the trap.. All fittings ect.. It was 10 Kg under the class limit..
Posted By: davidtilley

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/10/04 04:58 AM

While we are thinking inside the bigger box, I think we might remember that the preconception of difficult compound curves can also be thrown out with short high volume hulls that still must exceed hullspeed. If the stealth bomber can be made from flat sheets... While true planing hulls are impractical, I suspect that the example of boat builders building these complex hull shapes for pleasure boats, only to find that the high powered engines lead to "... hull shape doesn't matter, you plane anyway" may be worth considering. Similarly a "lift assisted hull" shape can be very practical to build if it has horsepower (sail area and beam) and has to be short anyway. Catamarans are unique in having weight transfer related to driving force. Let's use these characteristics, and build a fun, sailing machine, in the spirit of this class.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/10/04 02:28 PM

Bill,
mate still pushing credability..
Still a long way between Phill's carbon/kevlar (foam?) Paper Tiger at $4500 AuD a platform and your $15,000 USD..

If one uses 11 meters of 200 gm twill per hull.. That is 2 layers outer & one inner.. Over a foam core.. Now a quick check of carbon prices you in the US can purchase 200 gm twill at $ 14.25 ..

Posted By: dannyb9

Re: -14 &15 classification - 02/10/04 04:29 PM

i agree about the simple shapes having speed potential. phil bolger, master sharpie designer, writes that if 1/2 the included angle of the bow equals the angle of the slope of the bottom as it rises to meet the stem, the the waterflow is equalized on the sides and bottom with a minimum of turbulence and drag. anyway i like simple designs and hope to come up with some kind of lightweight boat for my H14 rig.
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