Tornado have started

http://www.sailing.org/olympics2004/results/TornadoOverall.asp

Go for Gold, Bundy / Forbes

2004 Olympics Athens News


Fri, 13 Aug 2004 to Sun, 29 Aug 2004



Olympics: Tornado and Star previews
Sat, 21 Aug 2004
Racing begins in the Tornado catamaran and Star keelboat classes in Athens today with Australian crews among the favourites.

Darren Bundock and John Forbes, silver medallists in the Tornados at Sydney 2000, have completed a very thorough campaign towards this Olympics, down to having a spare boat that is equally ready to race as their ‘front line’ boat.

They undertook a comprehensive sailcloth analysis before concluding that Dacron, with the technology going back more than 30 years had better shape retaining qualities than more recent exotic cloths utilising carbon fibre, Kevlar and other ‘exotics’

The Australian team is the only one in the Olympic Tornado fleet using a Dacron mainsail. Their sails are by Ullman Italy, Giorgio Zuccoli’s old loft, now run by Pablo Soldano.

Forbes and Bundock looked at all the synthetic options including Cuben fibre, which gave promising results for the US team at this year’s worlds and against the initial scepticism of coach Mike Fletcher decided to keep using Dacron as they had for the past four years.

They decided to accept the disadvantage of a little more weight in the cloth but did save weight by going lighter on the reinforcing, like corner patches.

‘Shape is everything and we found Dacron has best qualities,’ Forbes said. ‘The only negative is the extra weight.’

They have practised for the past three weeks on the Saronic Gulf with the Germans, Roland Gaebler and Gunnar Struckman and the Greeks Iordanis Paschalides/Christos Garefis. Yesterday the Tornados sailed a practice race.

Forbes said this morning: ‘We are going alright.’

He expects the strongest opponents will again be the Sydney gold medallists, Roman Hagara and Hans Peter Steinacher of Austria and the current world champions Santiago Lange/Carlos Espinola (Argentina).

The French, Olivier Backes/Laurent Voiron and Spaniards, Fernando Echavarri/Anton Paz, could also be up there, Forbes predicted.

Australians Colin Beashel and David Giles, world champions in 1998, Olympic bronze medalists in 1996, remain in the top frame in the star-studded Star keelboat class on form in European regattas over the past two years.

Newcomers from the Finn class – big boys who know how to hike hard – have made an impact in the class since Sydney 2000. One of them, Freddie Loof, crewed by Anders Elkstrom (Sweden) won both the world and European championship this year.

Another, Ian Percy (Great Britain), crewed by Steve Mitchell, won the world championship in 2002.

Multi-talented US sailor Paul Cayard, crewed by Phil Trinter in winning the US trials beat the 2000 gold medallist Mark Reynolds and are rated a strong chance by Colin Beashel.



by Bob Ross

At last! I am not alone in thinking that dacron sails are best. If it turns out that our U.S. team does not have a chance of winning a medal, I will be rooting for "Team Dacron," Bundock and Forbes.

I hope BRAVO shows a little more than just highlights of the races. Last night I stayed up 'til 12:30 to watch some sailing and they only had a , maybe, 8 minute blurb and then said "and that's all for sailing" and moved on.

Does anyone know if there is another channel that shows all the sailing events????

By the way, I'll be rooting for Lange and Espinosa 1st, and US 2nd.

They gave the 49ers only 3 minutes--what a shame. I hope they give the fastest olympic boat more air time than that.

Hello All,

Thanks for the post!

I know it driving us all nutzo, not being able to see what is going on.

I suspect one of the teams MAY have a website that will give the race as it happens,.....the cat folks are a pretty innovative and savvy bunch, yes!

If there is such a site, share it with us all.

Any weather report info?

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
USVI

I think the sailing coverage has been awesome, both in quantity and quality! It would be interesting to know how much air time sailing is getting compared to the other events, but I bet it would be up there close to the top. And that would be amazing, considering that it is probably the most difficult to cover, logistically -- and probably the most expensive to cover, too.

I have never seen such extensive coverage of sailing at the Olympics, and obviously we have Gary Jobson to thank for this.

Sailing is one of the few events (maybe the only one) that goes on for the entire two weeks of the Olympics. I don't know how Gary is able to do what he is doing. His schedule has to be brutal, and everybody knows that he is doing this while battling a life-threatening and very debilitating illness.

They are getting video from powerboats on the water, from some onboard cameras, and from helicopters. They try to feature a different class every day and then also give brief clips from another class or two.

It amazes me how they are able to get all this video and audio from all the inputs, not to mention graphics, and get it produced into what is usually a half-hour program (including commercials) every night.

I have loved watching the 470's and the Ynglings and Lasers and Finns. It's fun to watch the tactics with the monohulls.

I don't like to watch the sailboards where the sailors pump their sails and they look like a bunch of butterflies -- looks more like pain and muscle than smarts.

The Tornados are going to be more difficult to cover videowise, and not as interesting tactically, I'm sure. But I hope we get a fair amount of air time.

Personally, I am more interested in watching the Star class for this last half of the sailing competitions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2...ing/default.stm

In the UK we have been able to watch the sailing live on the bbc interactive service above, click the link and in the top right of the page you can access five feeds and normally there is 1 of sailing about midday GMT so far we have watched the 470s , europes, 49ers, and the whole of the last finn race and i must say it is pretty good coverage and commentary.

I really enjoyed the 30 seconds of the Tornados last night...seriously. After watching 15 minutes of keelboat sailing the boat speed difference was astonishing. I trust Gary will do us right and we'll get our moment!

USA is in second with points tie for first - Go Lovell and Ogletree!!

Scratch That! Lovell and Ogletree are in first place by two points with a bullet and sixth place in two races today! Whoooohooo!

I hope we get some fine coverage tonight!

Mary,

I must be watching the wrong channel! What channel are you watching, Bravo? Last night they had a full half hour of sailing, but nothing compared to all the swimming events. Everytime I turn on the t.v. I see nothing but swimming. AGHH! Enough of that!! I want to see some colorful sails!!!

I'm off to Cleveland.

In a remote control sailboat class, the mylar sails wax the dacron in all cases but one (probably due to shape). That is when it rains the mylar sails repel the water and create drops on the sails and are slow. The dacron sails ABSORB the water creating a smoother sail and kill the mylar sail. So I wonder whose Tornado sails have the lowest coefficient of friction?

http://www.sailing.org/olympics2004/

This link takes you to a composite sailing page.

When you click on a respective race, say race 3, it opens to a nice page with weather, mark rounding positions and results.

If you want to see the course, click on the 'course' ( it is 'up-and-down with a gate x 3)

Looks like weather was under 9 mph ....yikes.

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Simone Green, Monday, 23 August 2004


Races Three and Four

In extremely light conditions the Tornado fleet contested race 3 and 4 today. Among the eight crews protesting the decisions of the Race Committee, are the Australian's Darren Bundock & John Forbes who posted a 12th and 11th in the days races. The multiple World Champions are in 11th overall.


It was also a tough day on the water for Australia's Tornado boys. Darren Bundock (AIS/NSWIS) and John Forbes (AIS/NSWIS) are currently lying 11th overall after a 12th and an 11th in today's two races.

In a light wind and tricky conditions Bundock and Forbes were penalised in race three, costing them valuable placings. The Aussies were stranded in a path of no wind, unable to do more than just float along. The pair could not get out of the way when a rival crew came through on a puff and called starboard. As a result the Australia’s were faced with the challenge of completing penalty turns in no breeze, a slow frustrating task.

The Sydney 2000 silver medallists are seeking redress, with a protest to be heard in Athens tonight.

Sydney 2000 gold medallists Roman Hagara and Hans Peter Steinacher (AUT) has been overtaken by American duo Charlie Ogletree and John Lovell in the overall point score.

Day 2 - Tornado (4 races)

1.John LOVELL/Charlie OGLETREE (USA) (2,2,1,6) 11pts
2.Roman HAGARA/Hans Peter STEINACHER (AUT) (1,3,8,1) 13pts
3.Santiago LANGE/Carlos ESPINOLA (ARG) (7,1,6,5) 19pts
11.Darren BUNDOCK/John FORBES (AUS) (9,7,12,11) 39pts

Full list of Tornado results here.

Here is a quote from the Yahoo Tornado Forum.

So what do you guys think.


Ogletree,
a sail maker for Ullman in Houston, discovered a new
laminate that is 20 percent lighter than what most
Tornado sailors use. "We created quite a stir in the class,"
sad Ogletree. ISAF ultimately approved the cloth for use
in the Olympics. This edge has helped make Lovell and
Ogletree one of the fastest duos in the fleet. [...]
The new laminate--both film and fibers are made of
Pentex, a polyester derivative--is the biggest breakthrough
in the class since [the new rig]. "The cloth is made of the
same raw materials as other Tornado sails," explains
Ogletree, "bit it's 20 percent lighter and stronger for its
weight." [...]
Ogletree secured exclusive
rights to use the new laminate
through the Olympic Games; it
is shared with training partners
The Netherlands and Great
Britain. The three teams,
working with Ullman's Jay
Glaser (California) and Pablo
Soldano (Italy), together have
developed sail designs. [...]
All three boats finished in
the top five at the 2004 Worlds [...].

So, the sails are exclusively available to just 3 teams...

I've no problem with the cloth. It's the exclusive supply agreement
that is unfair in a one-design class, IMHO.

--Glenn

Folks,

Sail Magazine reports that US team Lovell and Ogletree are using a main
and jib where both the fibers and laminate are made of class-legal
Pentex, and which are 20% lighter than the sails other teams are using.
Furthermore, they have secured an exclusive license to the material
from the sole supplier through the end of the Olympics, according to the
article.

It seems to me that this exclusive licensing from a supplier of emerging
technology is anti-competitive and unfair in a one design class and that
the sails should be forbidden under the "Fair Sailing" rule of the ISAF
RRS. I assume that the sails have already been measured and approved,
but I hope someone protests these sails if they do use them. This team
represents my country, I expect them to play fair.

What do you think?

--Glenn

The VCR didn't record last night - did I miss anything?

I just want it to get windy.....Think of the pictures / video there would have been of the Tornado's had been out when it was windy last week....

Concerning the exclusive rights to pentex cuban fibre, it is a lot more complex than press releases imply

This is not a case of having exclusive rights to something you just sew together.

The exclusive rights, is in exchange for developing a way to make a Tornado sail out of pentex cuban fibre. There is not a big market for polyester (pentex) cuban fibre. Most people go for the Spectra version. Only classes whose rules only allow polyester would buy it. And there has never been a big enough demand to develop a small cat sail around the unique characteristics of cuban fibre

The main is molded on a full size 3-d foam mold. I am not sure about the jib.

The 3 training partners split the cost of the mold and the development cost of the sails. The partners were chosen by "people we know, we can work with". Not everyone who was offered a share accepted.

This deal was expensive and there is no guarantee that you wall end up with a superior sail or that it will not be declared illegal. For example, There is also a cuban fibre spinnaker for the Tornado. While class rules allow laminated spinnakers, there is an ISAF rule that allows only woven material. The laminated spinnaker was declared illegal. The ISAF rule was not intended to prevent a class from choosing their sail materials. I think the ITA did not think the rule applied and did not word their rule to exclude it.

The sail cloth is not the only factor here. The sail is being shaped by Jay Glaser. 2 of the 3 best looking sails I have ever seen were Jay Glaser laminated sails. Also as Charlie once said, "the laminated sail is less forgiving than woven but once you learn to use it, it's faster"

This is what I know about the exclusive rights to pentex cuban fibre and I am sure there are other things I don't know.

In addition this is not the only "partnership" out there. The Brits have one about masts and there is at least one other one concerning sail shape.

Carl Bohannon

Race 5 was awesome... unlike race 6...

Hey Jake,
Tevo really works well and we have not missed a beat. It is really great. It records all night and in the morning we watch what sports we want and delete the rest.
Rick

Don't suppose you have it on tape ? (even better if you have it in digital format)

Have to tell you that has always gone on. A clique of sailors discover a faster way and the those not in the clique are left out.
Happened for the 1976 trials. A group got together and had boats built of West System. While the boats measured in (sort of) they were a different design. They would build the hull to minimum specs in one spot, and maximum in another.
The end result was a boat that was not really a Tornado. They had more bow buoyancy, etc.
The boats were finished just before the trials and no one else was privy to the new design. The newly designed hulls and the light-weight and stiffness of the boats gave them superior speed.
The hulls should not have been approved into the class, but then again those in the clique were also strong polically in the class as well.
At the trials, the first seven (only seven made in time for the trials) took the first seven spots.
Not very fair, if you were not in that clique.
Rick

Rick,

I've already gathered that Tivo is in my future - but what I really want to know is did I miss anything good last night!

Anyone who thinks that having an exclusive mast, sailcloth or hull construction is illegal or otherwise unfair doesn't understand the game that these Olympians are playing. In a class like the Tornado developing your equipment is PART OF THE GAME. This is not Hobie 16 sailing we're talking about. When I was training for the Olympics in the 470 the Australian team had come up with a great sail design in the year before the games. Did they give that design away to their competition? Hell no! They were not that stupid. They spent a huge amount of their resources to develop their sails and it would have been vastly unfair to them if the rest of us were able to just buy the sails for a few hundred dollars. Like most every Olympic program we had our own sail development program and were figuring it out for ourselves. The sailcloth, masts ect are the same thing. To those that say this is not a true test of the sailor you are WAY off base. Developing your equipment requires a detailed understanding of what is fast and how your boat works that only the very best sailors in the world have.
The rules are defined before the game starts so that no one has a reason to call foul. Until you can point to the rule that has been broken you are just making slanderous accusations.
If the sails are "unfair" then a rule must have been broken. I challenge Stephen Medwell and Glenn to point to the rule that is being broken and to explain why the class measurers at the Olympics made a mistake in passing these sails.

go to
www.sailing.org/olympic2004/results/news2832.html

This gives a nice report on race 5 and 6.

I can read that in today's races, a wind hole is a wind hole,...and doesn't care how advanced your sail cloth is

...looks like a real interesting regatta,...with 7 points between the top 5 boats...

....by the way, ...go USA and Puerto Rico!



regards,

Bruce
USVI

I tried to tape it but the VCR recorded the main BBC channel, not the interactive one...

Ho Hum.....Oh well.....

Hey Rhody, watch the blood pressure

First, it was Glenn who said something was unfair. Stephen just re-posted some e-mails exchanged on the Tornado forum at yahoo.
Then Carl came with some new information, not available on the Yahoo T liste at the time when the allegations about unfairness was put forth.

If it is correct, that the sails in question are indeed moulded polyester sails. The are legal within the class rules (as I interpret them). The article spoke about "a new laminate", which most of us probably interpreted as a new type of cloth.

Having exclusive access to superior materials (like a new type of cloth) would in my opinion not be fair in a one-design class. Having developed a revolutionary sail design or whatever based on commonly available materials is of course OK. The same goes for Rick's example with the Gougeon cold moulded hulls..


I agreed with Glenn when I read the article, but with the new information about the sails provided by Carl, I would not call them unfair (just expensive).

I sure hope that sails from the mould are made available after the olympics, or that moulded sails are banned in the class. The last thing the T-class needs now, in the middle of the carbon mast 'schisma' is another expensive technology.. If the carbon mast passes the class ballot, new sail shapes will probably have to be developed anyway.

The tolerances in the rules of a one design class should be so narrow that the mast or moulded sail issues never came up.



Carl: Are you sure it is cuban (I presume you mean Cuben) fibre sails based on pentex ? Cuben fibre is a mix of carbon and polymer filaments in my dictionary, which is not class legal as only polyester fibres are allowed in Tornado sails..

Ref: Quantum Sail Design Group


On to something else. I wonder if the conditions the Tornados are sailing under in this olympics are trying for the participants. Looking on the score table at http://www.haveahobieday.com/olympics2004/results/tornadoOverall.asp
shows few consistently performing teams and reports of little wind. Racing in little wind is both a skill and a good bit of luck, in my humble experience..

Rolf

Rolf
There is no way I'm going to "watch my blood pressure" while you guys try and marginalize the accomplishments of two absolute good sports who have worked there butts off for about two decades to get where they are today. The rules may not be what you think they should be, but they are what they are. The important thing is that they are the same for everyone. By definition that is FAIR.

I'm with Rhody. There are two ways to spin this thing;

1)A manufacturer has created an agreement to exclude other competitors from their technology.
2) A group of sailors and a manufacturer struck an agreement in order to share costs and resources in order to develop something new.

I believe the latter is what's happening here - there's no motivation for some huge conspiracy. Why would this sail maker NOT want to sell the other sails to other competitors? Only if you look at the other plausible facts does it make sense; It would make sense for that manufacturer to strike a time limited deal with a group of sailors to test the new sail material since they don't have the expertise on the water. It would also make sense to ask those sailors to contribute to the development in return for early access to the technology. It also makes sense that they would want to temporarily strike the agreement with teams that are reliable, have talent, and resources and as such, restrict the development (i.e. 'test control sample') to a select few in order to gain reliable feedback.

It seems that the Tornado folks to easily consider this class a single manufacturer one design - but is a box rule, and although a bit more strict, very similar to the newer F18 class. Development is important and no rule says that everyone has to share their sail shape development right? Why should the fabric from which it is made be any different - as long as it lies within the rules?

Hi Guys,
Sails made in molds are not new. Back in the days before computer designed sails were possible, some sailmakers made molds to their best guess sail shapes. The sailcloth panels were laid in these molds and cut to fit like a big puzzell. Some of these "molded" sails, as they were called, were fast and other molded sails were slow. It is all tied up in the shape of the mold and the shape of the mold came from somebody's drawing board. All mold cut sails are not fast. The key is in the shape of the mold. Today a good sail designer with a computer can duplicate any mold sail shape. It is possible that the "mold surface design" came from a sail design computer program and then the mold was built to the computer print out contoures.
Bill

OK then I will say watch your blood pressure. I passed no comment, only re posted somebodies post here from another forum.

Now I will pass comment.

All credit given to the USA and other teams for the hard work they have put in.

In MY OWN OPINION it is not the Sail Design or Material I question. It is the exclusive agreement that has so called been signed. If this is the case I find it un sportsmanlike.

If you wish to play the game this way you develop it late enough to not give any other teams an oportunity to use this material. Not ban other teams from using it.

I also think the same way about the new GBR mast.

Just my opinion.

I think it is the timing of this exclusive R&D that is annoying some people. However, it is also a gamble for sailors who use something a little new and different. If none of the three boats using the new sails win medals in the Olympics, it will be a non-issue. If they do, it will probably be an issue forever, because it provides a good excuse for the losers.

It doesn't sound to me as though they have done anything illegal or unethical.

I don't know whether there are any restrictions about track shoes, but if I were a track star, I know I would be trying to design a faster shoe -- just for me.

I got some good advice once, always try to breathe trough your nose when a discussion get heated. (It's quite hard to raise your voice or yell then..)


Rhody: I'm not saying anything bad about the US team. I'm not even "marginalizeing" their accomplishment. Norway dont have a Tornado team in this olympics, so I'm pretty neutral with regards to who wins!

If you re-read my post, you will hopefully see that I _agree_ with you regarding the sails. The sails are within the rules, and I dont have any gripes with them. Hence the comment about watching the blood pressure.

Jake got it right, 'everybody' tought it was alternative 1 based on the information available at the time. It seems like it was alternative 2 instead, and that is of course OK.

Now, the other comments you obviously seem to read some "marginalizeing" in, is my views on class building and has nothing to do with the olympics.

You are mis-reading both my post and intentions. I care for the T-class, and not so much about this olympics.

Please watch your blood pressure..


Stephen:
The rules doesn't say anything about the construction of sails besides permitted sail materials. Everybody has used panelled construction so far, probably due to cost.
The US team and partners appears to have developed and costed a mould for moulded T sails, and agreed with the sailmaker that these sails are for exclusive use by the partners in this olympic.

This is OK in my opinion.
Doesn't Roman Hagara have a sailmaker working exclusively for him with panelled sails ? I dont quite see the difference between the moulded sails and Hagara's approach. It boils down to the flying shape of the sail in the end (as Bill Roberts said).
Moulded sails have some advantages, like weight, crimp, airflow and shape. But the technology for making them is not new or exclusive, so all teams could have done this if they tought of it and had the budget.
The only new thing might be moulding with pentex fibres, but I dont know if that is a new technology ?

The real issue, is indeed exclusiveness, like the RYA masts. And I believe that the only way to stop this is tighter tolerances in the rules.

Rolf

Rolf,

I feel that you have hit the nail on the dead with the above post.

It is not out of class what has been done. Just clever sailors looking (and have the found it or not) for an extra little bit.

To the doubters above, IBM would not openly advertise and sell to its competitors would they ?

The 3 teams that have co-operated have taken a risk by getting new technology sails measured - If they are slow, hard luck. Ditto the 'RYA' mast, use the technolohy to its best.

If the T is to become a one design boat, it needs rules to that effect and in the process you end up with a restricted class that does not evolve…..

Some strict one designs (like the laser) work fine. But with something like the T, some crew preferences are catered for by the measurement (Box) rule – Bendy masts for light crews and stiff ones for the fat(er) boys being a classic example.

The leading edge (of ‘normal’) normal cat development is not a cheap place to be

Good Morning all,

I have to amend a mistake ,.....as of Tuesday, there are 7 points between the top 6 boats ( instead of 5 boats)

....looks like a tremendous battle lies ahead,....any boat can 'do it'!

A little info please, on the Sweden team, is 'Kristin' a gal?

regards and enjoy your day,

Bruce

USVI

.

>>It seems that the Tornado folks to easily consider this class a single manufacturer one design - but is a box rule, and although a bit more strict, very similar to the newer F18 class.

Isn't that the truth. as a matter of fact the tornado has never been anything else than that. Small hull shape differences existed in the past between Reg White, sailcraft and mastrom tornado's as well.

Moreso the switching of places in the tornado class during events seems to indicate that sail skill is still by far the most important factor. Look where Bundy is right now. It is all about who is peaking during the week of racing and who peaked to soon or to late.

How much more equal do you want to get it ?

Wouter

Hi Rolf,

The only issue I have also is about the exclusiveness of material too.

Nothing against the US team, I wish them the best off luck as long as they don't beat AUS

If you can do it and get away with it you will and I would too. But some loopholes also should be closed.

At the end of the day whats done is done and lets get on with racing. I think what is happening with the Masts are more damaging than the Sails.

Saw the footage last night from Bravo (VCR working again! ) and we had about 12 minutes of Race 5 coverage. Can you imagine the frustration on the Americans after a bad start, fighting back a little, and then your dousing line repeatedly gets wrapped on the onboard camera and the leeward mark! They had to manually stuff their spinnaker for the rest of that race and race 6 (in the snuffer). Ouch. This is a close battle and Bundock looked strong.

Hey Jake, et. al. -

Anybody else notice the way the "new" sails sound and look? Instead of sounding "crispy" like new sails I'm used to hearing, these new sails almost sound "crunchy." Could be the quality of the sound equipment on the boats, though the timbre of voices sounds normal... something different about the sound of the sails, though. It also seemed to me that the tack of the jib was all crunched down like they had a bunch of jib downhaul on, but it didn't seem all that breezy.

I liked Jobson's comment - he said he'd like to see the Tornado race the 49er! Me too!

Steve - AUS looked really strong with a 1 and a 2!

Sure, the 49ers are very cool and very fast. Now that the Tornados have spinnakers, I doubt it would be much of a race, though.

Does anyone know what kind of suit Ogletree is wearing in the picture John posted? I think Kevin Burnham in the 470 was wearing the same thing. Looks like the thing for us fair guys....Dan

In the light stuff the 49er might still win - just. In any sort of wind the T would be lapping the 49er

I'm pretty sure those are just oversized wet suit rash guards...the concept is to reduce windage by covering everything with it.

Bruce: "Kristin" is supposed to be "Kristian", and he is about 1,90 meters tall. He has a great sense of humour, so you could probably avoid an black eye if you called him feminine

Btw: He goes by the outname "krille" among friends..

In response to Rolf

(A lot of what I wrote came from Charlie's after dinner speech at GBCC.)

Yes, they are using Cuben( I added it to my spell checker). Cuben is more of a process than a fiber. They take a woven material, compact it or modify the weave and then laminate one or both sides. They make fabrics from many types and combinations of materials, Kevlar, spectra, carbon, Dacron, etc.

I heard about a Cuben Dacron fabric as an industrial balloon/inflatable material a while back, but I never thought about it for sails.

I have looked at Cuben fibre a couple of times in the past. In the same weight as normal sail cloth, Cuben is much more durable. in a 20% lighter version, it should be at least as durable as dacron/pentex. My only experience was cuben spectra for a club racing jib. For 40% more money we got about 3 times the life. It's expensive but, it doesn't blow out, in fact the spectra version doesn't give at all until it just disintegrates.

Carl:
I always believed that Cuben was a special fibre/cloth, and not something you could make from polyester. All literature I have seen on the subject, Cuben sails, speaks about Cuben fibre and carbon as far as i can remember.
Thanks for sharing that piece of information..

Now, do you know more about the exclusiveness of the agreement ? Is it the use of the mould, or is it the process of making Cuben from polyester that is exclusive ?

Hopefully, the ITA magazine "Fly Tornado" will give us the whole story in a while..


Rolf

Rolf,
No offense intended, just clarification.

I have seen pleanty of good women cat sailors,, but never on Olympic level Tornado

Hey Rolf, I came close to the Eastern Norway boarder, in January 2002, I was studying at Mid-Sweden U, at Ostersund, and we went to see a frozen waterfall and ice-house, pretty cool.

Once again, no offense to anyone, ok?

regards,

Bruce
USVI

Incorrect

Paul Elvestrom sailed with his daughter - Trine (I think)

I know at least three women who did Olympic campaigns on Tornadoes as skippers -- one in Canada and two in the U.S. Pease Glaser did two campaigns, I believe, and ranked pretty consistently in the top 5 on the U.S. Tornado team.

Paul Elvstrom raced a Tornado in one Olympics with his daughter as crew, and they narrowly missed out on the bronze medal.

The women skipper on the T-Boat was Melodie Gummer from Kigston, Ont, CAN.

Bruce: No problem, I was making a joke, and Kristian would also just laugh about this kind of typo..

Darren Bundock was sailing with his girlfriend, Alexandra (Alex) Goltz, when they won the open german championship 2003. They beat both Gaebler/Struckman (the german olympic team) and Polgar/Landenberger. I guess they would have made a strong team in the olympics as well.. The only problem would be that Alex is german while Bundock is an ozzie

Rolf

Wow,

I remember seeing her on her mint green Sailcraft Tboat back when I was a kid sailing with my Dad...boat name was "Peppermint Catty".

Mike.

Sounds like there were some tough conditions today in Athens. John and Charlie slipped to 2nd overall, but are still a few points ahead of AUS.



Hope that they can wrap up the series with more pictures like this one!

But it was Brazilian Torben Grael who won in the Star class and with a race to spare. Quite a feat, considering the competitors.

He is now the only sailor to win 5 Olympic medals ever.

If his brother (and Tornado silver medalist) Lars wouldn´t have lost his legs, Brazil wouldn´t be last in Tornado today .

what do you mean "lost his legs"?

Any of these just about cover it

Following is an updated schedule for the final two Olympic sailing shows. This was by e-mail from Gary Jobson:

Thursday, August 26 - midnight on the Bravo network
Saturday, August 28 - 4:00pm on CNBC

Olympic Regatta: Lovell/Ogletree Assured of Gold or Silver

ATHENS, GREECE (August 26, 2004) - The USA's Tornado sailors John Lovell(New Orleans, La.) and Charlie Ogletree (Houston, Texas/Columbia, N.C.)secured themselves at least a silver medal today when they won the first of two races and followed up with a second-place finish. With one race to go on Saturday, Aug. 28, they are now in second overall, only three points behind the Austrians, who are the only ones that could keep the USA from gold on Saturday.

"We won the start in the first race and got a good jump on the fleet immediately," said Lovell, who led at every mark of the course. "In the second race, we did the same thing but started consolidating--covering the guys we needed to cover, in particular Austria and Argentina--and finished second.

"Saturday it's one big race for gold," continued Lovell, who counts the Austrians as one of the fastest Tornado teams in the world. "It's not going to be easy. Today they were in tenth and we thought 'we've got them!," but then, in both races, they grinded back."

Lovell said the Tornado reserve day tomorrow would be spent taking the entire boat apart and putting it back together again, to ensure that no mechanical breakdowns will foil their plans. They also will study the scores and go over all the different race scenarios that could happen. As match-racing champions (they won last year's International Catamaran Challenge Trophy), Lovell and Ogletree are ready for the one-on-one racing with Austria that might present itself.

"We have a much better drop race than the Austrians, so we have two choices," said Lovell. "We jump on them early and drive them to the back of the fleet or just go out and win. We'll make that decision on game day."

There's more about it in the net then I thought. Anyway, a drunk idiot "driving" a motorboat run over him and the legs could not be saved.

Now for the other side of the story on Thursday's racing:

Australia’s Tornado crew Darren Bundock and John Forbes sailed a brilliant race to lead around all marks and win race ten at the Olympics by 57 seconds today.

But … a 12th in race nine – the first race of the day - cost them their shot at winning either gold or silver medals in the last race of the series on Saturday. Bronze is now the only currency within their reach.

Both races were sailed in a light south-easterly sea breeze of 7-10 knots for race nine, 6-8 knots for race 10. The left-hand side of the course paid dividends with more pressure in both races.

However, the right did pay for a while on the second beat of race nine. Bundock/Forbes dropped from ninth on this leg while the Austrians, Roman Hagara/Hans Peter Steinacher, who rounded the bottom mark tenth, went right and rounded the second windward mark in third place.

Hagara/Steinacher finished second to the Americans John Lovell/Charlie Ogletree, who led around all marks, to lead the series with 33 points from Lovell/Ogletree 36, with the world champion Santiago Lange/Carlos Espinola third on 45 after placing 4-3 today.

Bundock/Forbes are another five points behind; equal on 50 with an old Australian adversary, Mitch Booth, now sailing for the Netherlands, crewed by Herb Dercksen.

The win in race 10, built on a good start towards the pin followed by a long starboard tack all the way left, set up the Australians’ race 10 win.

So what went wrong in race nine? Darren Bundock explained: ‘We did exactly what we did in the second race, nothing different.

‘On the second upwind, everyone was racked up and we just took a little dig out for a couple of hundred metres, then went left. And the Austrian, who was behind us, went hard right and was third to the top mark.

‘In the second race, we got a good start and headed further left than anyone. The Americans were below us and asked if they could tack.

‘We said sure and then they tacked and went across below us. We just went going a bit further.

‘Once you get in front it’s easy, you just cruise around all day. Back in 12th, it is not so easy.

‘I guess it’s now all out for the bronze medal.’

Alex is a super fit girl and a hell of a sailor too. German Olympic 470 team in Sydney. They would not have a problem throwing the T around the course FAST with either of them skippering.

Anyway I have been away from the Computer for a while and have not kept up to date with the Ts. Just spent 3 days in Hospital after parking my car under a semi at 60kmh.

All fine now. Busted up and sore but will recover for racing in about a month.

Looks like we have an interesting finish on our hands for the Tornado. The US will find it hard now to beat AUT with only 1 race remaining. Hagara will keep a close cover on them. But the way this regatta has gone, with light flukey winds.... who knows what will happen.

No fairytail finish for Forbes either. Lets hope they come away with a medal though.

Alex did not reepresent Germany at the 2000 Olympics in the womens 470.

5 Nicola Birkner
Wibke Buelle GER Pts: 8, 2, 4, 6, 12, 4, (20), 13, 1, 4, (15) = 54

In the Australian Hobie Titles Darren and Alex capsized in 3 times in 1 race. I think you should give John Forbes some credit in this great team.

Sailing and Equestrian are the only two disciplines in the Olympics that have events open to men and women competing directly against each other. It seems to work in equestrian, but it does not seem to work in sailing. I believe the Laser, the 49er, the Tornado and the Star (and probably the Finn, too) are all "open" classes, but how many women do you see competing in the Olympics in those classes? Almost zero.

Why do you think this is? I think I know, but I would like to hear opinions.

Is it easier for women to control horses than boats?

Appologies, I thought she did..... She did campaign though.

Forbes is an instrumental part of the team and I did not show Forbes any disrespect. I have raced against Bundy and Forbes quiet a few times and know them off the water too.

I have met Alex when she has been in AUS and have seen her sail. What I was saying is that Alex can sail and with Bundy would have no trouble getting the T going fast as with Alex and John if they sailed together.

The Bundy and Forbes team may have never won gold but should go down as the best Cat sailors the world has ever seen. Along with their on water achievements together and seperatly they have done quiet allot for the Torando Class both in Australia and Around the World. They have also spent many hours with new teams comming through like us and I have nothing but the greatest respect for the guys formost as people then as sailors.

Mary,
The weight of the sailor required to be competitive in a given sailboat class is in the boat designer's hands. If the boat is designed with a high sail area to righting moment ratio, the boat requires heavier weight people to sail the boat. If the designer designs the boat with a lower sail area to righting moment ratio, smaller weight people can sail the boat to its max performance.
Generally designers strive to design faster and faster boats. To a large degree this means have more sail area than the competition. This increased sail area to be faster than the competition requires larger people to hold the boat down and drive the sails to their max capacity.
The solution to this "larger sail area/heavier sailors required" spiral is to make the boats wider. It is torque or righting moment that is required to hold the boats down and drive the sails to their max capacity. Righting moment or torque is a function of sailor's weight and "lever arm". For a given required righting moment, required sailor's weight goes down as lever arm goes up.
Example: If we took all of the present 8ft and 8.5ft wide catamaran designs and made them 12ft wide, women would rule the race courses and catamaran sailing would be a womens' sport. Two momen at 120 pounds each on a 12ft lever arm can generate the same righting moment as two men at 180 pounds on an 8ft lever arm. Both righting moments equal 2880 ftlbs of torque. This calculation is simplified to make it easy for non engineers to understand but you get the point: Wider takes less weight. Make it wide enough and women can do it, sail the boat to its max performance. Wider is simple.
Bill

Thanks, Bill, but what you are also saying is that with the existing designs, women need to be heavier to be competitive.

Actually, I was thinking in terms of weight being equal and sailing/racing ability being equal. And for the sake of argument, let's pretend that there are as many women racing sailboats as there are men. I think you still will rarely see women competing directly against men at the highest levels of the sport. It does not have to do with whether they are heavy enough to hold the boat down.

I think I know the answer, but I am just wondering whether other people will come up with it.

By the way, I was wrong in my former post -- the three sailing classes that are Open to both men and women are Laser, 49er and Tornado.

Mary to answer your question all the classes are either men’s or women’s disciplines except the Tornado which is “open”. If you look at the classes’ rarely do the men and the women race together. In the 470 after their Olympic win in 2000 Jenny Armstrong and Belinda Stowell did have some top 3 finishes in mixed events and also won a grade 2 event. So in certain conditions and classes women can compete equally with men.

The Tornado with its much higher sheet loads does not lend itself to a mixed combination. At the Seoul Olympics only 2 skippers raced holding the main the other preferred the crew to handle this. One of the 2 was the great Paul Elvstrom sailing with his daughter. While it is very possible that this great sailor would have held the main no matter whom his crew was. By the numbers of non mixed crews racing at the Olympic level has become a farce to call the Multihull discipline as “open”.

If the IOC was honest and concerned about equality they should make the Tornado a male discipline and bring in another discipline that is either forced to be mixed or female. But with the pressure on sailing to reduce their numbers not increase the number of disciplines it seems highly unlikely. Again the multihull fraternity is discriminated against by a policy restricting women into the Olympics. While other claases race as a gender based

New2Sailing2, thanks for your good answer. But it is not the one I am looking for. (Although you do hint at it.)

Just to correct what you said, as I mentioned in my previous post, the three sailing classes that are "Open" to both men and women are the Laser, the 49er and the Tornado. At least they are listed as "Open" on the ISAF website.

Dear Mary,
I know what you want me to say but I am not going to say it.
Back to my point, there are not many 180 pound women and there are even fewer 180 pound women who want to sail/race sailboats. There are plenty of 120 to 130 pound women who would like to race sailboats but due to the design of the boats, the 120 pound women are not competitive except in light winds where they can hold the boats down. When the wind picks up, the average size female can't hold the boat down and the big guys walk away to windward because of their weight, not their superior sailing ability. It is no fun to try to compete in this situation.
The 470 is an example of a depowered, reduced sail area, 2 person racing monohull. The powered up versions of this same boat are the 505 and the Flying Dutchman. The 470 is a slightly smaller platform than the 505 or FD with a greatly reduced sail plan. Therefore the boat favors small men and average size women. No problem. Ever see two 180 pound guys race a 470? Two 140 pound guys will lap them in a two lap race.
As far as the comment about sheet loads being too great for women; that's what higher mechanical advantage pulley systems are for. I have 8:1 mechanical advantage on a 150sqft jib on the RC30. It is like power steering; trim the sail with one hand. The mainsheet is 16:1 and the main traveller control is 8:1. I put power steering on everything. Make it easy. Why not?
Bill

Mary,

Could it be that ISAF may have got it wrong? This is from their minutes of the 2000 events committee.

The Events Committee therefore recommends that the following events
make up the 2004 Olympic Regatta:

Men Windsurfer; Single Handed Dinghy; Two Handed Dinghy Keelboat – Fleet

Women: Windsurfer; Single Handed Dinghy; Two Handed Dinghy Keelboat – Match

Open: Single Handed Dinghy; Two Handed Dinghy; Multihull

ISAF then changed the women keelboat to match.

If ISAF thinks that men and women can not compete equally and therefore set up separate disciplines in the windsurfer, single handed dingy, double handed dingy and keel boats why not the mulithull? In other sports men and women have separate disciplines. Women runners don't run against the men. Regardless of any reason whether it be strength, height, weight let gender compete against gender. If all things were equal then we would have more "open" racing at the olympics because of the classes chosen.

The Hobie 16 is one such boat that does allow "open" racing. The current world champions is a mixed team. You can not state weight or height has an influence there. As with over 200 team there were a combination of male/male the same weight and height. It was team work and skill not gender. But has an all woman team won, no.

So for the orgainal answer, if you choose the right discipline you can have a very succesul mixed team. But for ulitmate fairness it should be gender based.

The 49er is "Open Double-handed High Performance Dinghy."
The Laser is "Open Single-handed Dinghy."
The Tornado is "Open Double-handed Multihull."

Here is the link: http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/classes.htm

Bill,



You example is not a good one. Power steering still uses the same steering rack and so has the same number of turns lock to lock. When you add purchases to a pully system, you increase the amount of rope (and so time to make the adjustment) - I would not want to sail with a purchase any greater than my 7 or 8:1 as I would not be able to dump mainsail in the gusts quick enough.

I agree it makes the final sheet loads less, but at the expense of speed to trim - Are you advocating powered systems for out cats - I don't think you are.

Flame me for it, but here are my answers. Based on my own experiences racing with a female crew and experiences with mixed racing crews at events

-1- Women often don't have the competitive drive equal to the men. This not to say they don't have it but just in a different shape and magnitude then men.

-2- Men quite often seek out sports that make them feel a little scared, women don't. Sailing a Tornado under full rig is definately on the scared side of control.

-3- It takes a huge investment in time and giving up very large chunks of your personal life to be competitive at the level that the Tornado guys are. Women often do not values victories as to be enough substitution for the "life lost". And then women have the issue of "building a family" in alot more profound way then men. Of course creating a family takes women of the scene st the ages where they should be completing the last leg to being compititive by sailing 4 hours a day or more. They simply can not do that.

-4- Women are very good till the age where men have their second growth spurt and start getting wider and stronger. Now the men can use their strength, stamina and sheer amounts of testoron to compensate for inferiour sailing skills. Women, often being more carefull sailors, loose out on taken less risks or sailing less agressively.

-5- The mindset of men on board is often fully incompetible with the atmosphere that inspires a women to perform optimally. I personally found that Women will get out and race very well in rough conditions when they have absolute faith in the other and know that the other has absolute faith and respect for them. It is my experience that men do lift themselfs beyond their personal limits because the are ashamed to not life up to expectations or because of personal ambition. Women on the other hand tend to lift themselfs beyond personal limits when they feel secured by someone ready to pick them up if things go wrong or when they see that a personal win (mind over matter) experience in within reach. Men overcome for their standing amongst other, women overcome for personal victories so to say but only if the environment is controlled enough so that it doesn't come with to much risk. One more point if women start to realize that are about to "stick it to the men" then you are hard pressed to see a better playing or better performing team. Then they are like a pittbul and won't let go of the grip they have.

-6- Women are a little more inclined to accept the status quo and race what they got, men contribute to this by thinking only in terms of their own personality or capabilities. What a mixed team should do and what a man must do if analyse the strong points and weak points of a mixed crew and start adjusting the setup of the platform and controls accordingly. I can't count how many times women were put off by the spinnaker because the men (always being the skipper !) just ingnore the fact that having 2 extra ratchets on board just makes sheeting the spinnaker a lot less tiring. Often the men on the sheet will complain once or twice and then go to the gym more often to build up muscle. This route, of course, is totally imcompatible with women. Therefor women and the male companions should work out alternatives or switch roles so that the specialities of either is applied to where it is needed. That is another thing men never want to hand over the tiller and often women don't REALLY ask for it.

Here I gave a few examples why it is difficult for a mixed or all female crew to reach the very top of sailing after the men have reached their adult size and mindset. Attacking these point directly improves the likelyhood of mixed crews moving up in the listings.

And remember afterall why Ellen McArthur is succesful and why 110 kg crews like Daniel van Kerckhof / Anna-Liese Byrne and 140 kg Andrew Williams + Petra Eiggl (Taipan 4.9 + spi crews) win their races. It has nothing to do with extra width and all with trim and adjusting the boat and crew to the limitations of a mixed crew. Also with the mindset that a mixed crew can win in such a class of boats.

So

Is your rig to powerful ? Get another main cut for your weight. Accept that you don't have the edge as you did in light air anymore over becoming competitive in the stronger stuff.

Are the sheet loads to high ? Redesign the systems so the loads are lower (cascade down system, F16 forum, is a good example of that)

Is the crew role to heavy for one ? Switch roles onboard. Mainsheet to highly loaded, hand it to the crew on teh upwind legs and train on making the boat go upwind as a team effort with clearly defined "I do this you do that"

Is one crew tactically inferiour ? Hand the tactics and decisions to the other, even when that means that the crew becomes the leader on the boat and the skipper the one that follows directives.

Is one crew getting nervous and feels to much in edge. Start talking to eachother and call out any action, reasons for decisions and projected path. This will often quickly settle the other down even when things get hairy.

If a women stays nervous then simply back-off and sail around the situation. When given time she will proces the specifics of the situation you just avoided and find a opening where she is comfortable with and in one of the next times she will surprise you by not backing-out in one of the next times. If you then keep your actions clear and controlled she will reinforce the trust she places on you and not back-off ever again in similar situation.

For the men, Trust needs to be earned and KEPT ! The one thing every male part of a mixed crew should learn is to never betray the trust of the female part. For them the trust that you'll be dependable and responsible is a very important part of their whole way of sailing. It is often, in my experience, what they use to overcome the limits they feel. They are not really shaken by bad luck, but they are really upset by irresponsible actions resulting in damages or injury. As a men you have the responsibility to always sail clean, never curse and make well founded decisions and balance gains to risks. You won't believe how far this will boost your mixed crew performance.

For coaches of all female teams these points in a way are the same. You are a ladder they use to get up in performance in different ways than men do. If a coach doesn't realize this then the gains are most likely (very) limited. This is also a reason why female coaches often don't work that much better. Men often don't respect them and women see their own limits reflected in them. It is actually extremely difficult to be a female coach supporting an all-female crew in a sport like this. Mostly because you'll need an exceptionally accomplished sailor for your female trainees to respect you unconditionally. Then of course women are women among themselfs and that is a whole world into itself. I don't understand it but I have seen the outward visible ripples of it. For some reason women and men react to eachother in more controllable ways in relationships like that. Sadly female coaches and male teams are even worse because the men often simply don't respect the woman in roles like that. That is our bad.

I think there is more genetic and cultural imprint then we often accept. Working cleverly around or even with that is I feel the road to gains. Not doing that will always result in the female crews underperforming in the male dominated sports.


Wouter

Just my 2 cents..

for the Lasers part, I think Bill Roberts is right. The sailarea is to large for the average woman to be competitive.

I have seen some mixed teams in the 49'ers, but not many, and none at the highest levels. Altough the 49'ers have a weight equalizing system, allowing larger 'wings' for lighter teams.

The Tornado also has few mixed teams, but there has been (and are) some great teams there (the Scaceys come to mind, altough there probably are several others). For a pure female team, a T is very heavy to handle on the ground. We weight in at 170Kg's, and sometimes have to struggle to get it up the ramp. Ours is a lousy ramp, with a 10 cm step at the bottom on low tide and lots of slime, but anyway..

My sister crewed for me at the swedish championship this year. She was a international top level wrestler in the 68Kg class up til some years ago. While sailing, her biggest problem was sheeting in the chute, she needed some help there from time to time. We also had to make an effort to get the boat up the ramp in Malmø after sailing.
I would guess that she is a bit stronger than the average female.

She had never sailed before, but absolutely loved it, and would love to do some more T sailing. She was attracted to the general speed and excitement of the Tornado, and of course she loves to compete.

We also got lots of positive comments for sailing as a mixed crew!

In my experience females likes to compete as much, or more, then us males. But for some reason they dont come out racing if they has to sail as skipper ? It also seems to me like they want to be reasonably sure that they will do good before they race against men ?
I have heard some say that sailing is a very technical sport, and that males enjoy technical stuff more than women. I dont think that is the reason..
Sailing can be quite testosterone packed at times (starting, protest situations etc) and some are perhaps deterred by this ?
I dont *know* all this, it's just some impressions I have got! As females are getting more and more agressive, I guess this will spread to sailing as well. Hopefully this will be positive for the sport of sailing.


I would like to hear your toughts Mary, as I would love to see more girls racing at our club!

If you have answers to some other great mysteries as well..

1: Why dont more women sail ?
2: Why is sailing dominated by white people ?
3: Why is sailing percieved as a 'closed' sport to outsiders ?
4: Why are multihulls not regarded as proper sailboats ?

(Dont get me wrong here, I'm not making a point. I really want to hear some opinions)

Wouter: We are switching to two rachet blocks on the spi now, as we dont want to bust our hands completely. It's not the muscle, but the hands can't take it without swelling when the wind is up.

Another comment. There are some large changes in western culture (and asian) just now. Young women do not want to start a family, they prefer to stay free and without kids. This is happening all over the western countries, and the demographics in Spain and Italy show some really bad trends. Bad in the sense that financing social security and pensions might be impossible as there will not be coming generations to tax.. (Again, dont get me wrong. Women are of course entitled to make their own choices!)


Good post!

Hi Mary,
I will only talk technical things with you on the subject of male vs female sailing contests. I'm not going to go to those "other places".
Mary said," It does not have to do with whether they are heavy enough to hold the boat down".

Mary,
The mechanics of the situation have very much to do with why men and women don't compete against each other in the high performance boats. Women don't compete against men in the Laser class because they can't hold the boat down. Give the women a trapeze on the Laser against men hiking and women can be competitive.
The biggest single problem with the concept of "one design sailboat racing" is that people are not one design. Yet the two things that have the greatest effect on boat speed and race outcome are" 1.sail area to weight ratio and 2. righting moment to sail area ratio. Both of these two basic performance parameters are highly influenced by "sailors weight". As the boats get lighter, the effect becomes greater. This is why in windsurfing contests there are weight divisions.
As beach catamarans become lighter and lighter, the effect of sailor's weight will become more pronounced because sailor's weight makes up a larger fraction of the total system weight. Maybe someday we will have weight divisions in beach cat racing but I hope not.
Bill.


By the way, I was wrong in my former post -- the three sailing classes that are Open to both men and women are Laser, 49er and Tornado. [/quote]

Bill, you are begging the question, and Wouter and Rolf are getting close to the answer but dancing around it.

>>Another comment. There are some large changes in western culture (and asian) just now. Young women do not want to start a family, they prefer to stay free and without kids. This is happening all over the western countries, and the demographics in Spain and Italy show some really bad trends. Bad in the sense that financing social security and pensions might be impossible as there will not be coming generations to tax.. (Again, dont get me wrong. Women are of course entitled to make their own choices!)


My last female crew, with whom I enjoyed racing alot, was a doctor, earned more than I did, will never have kids and is as free minded as Ernest Hemmigway. She is to the left of me politically and more active as well. Right now she is in Africa working in a hospital. I fear she won't be back soon.

Still despite these changes in western society and western womenhood she displayed a lot of the symthomes I described Earlier (apart from the one about creating a family.)

For this reason and others I'm not a big believer in the Western myth about "women catching up to men and being the same".

One reason is that men and women will never be the same and both of them really don't want to as well.

The other reasons is that is ignores obvious genetic based differences only to be politically correct or whatever. This ignores doing things better. Women are definately better in several things than men and the same goes the other way around. It is also more fun discovering who does what best and how you can devided tasks so that the team is better still.

Also I've been around long enough to know that not everything is culture based. There are quite a few things that are genetically encoded or that body build has stimulated to develop in a different direction.

I also think there is absolutely no problem with "a womans choice" Afterall they are as hard pressed to ignore their genetic imprint as much as men are with theirs. We as a people will survive no matter what culture we live in.

And of course young men and young women will say alot of things and then get hooked up with eachother at a later age anyway. It is the way of the world and the universe even. Just like how the 60's couldn't destroy the institude of marriage. The people at that time were foolish to believe that the even could endanger it. An union of that shape and meaning is to much inbedded in our psyche and genetic codes although its outward look may change over time and geographically.

In short; I don't think that the "large changes in western culture" will make women more physical or significantly change their unique way of looking at life and sports for that matter.

Wouter

In that case tell us your answer please. I wonder what it is as most possible answers have be named now I think. And I don't by the theory that there is a conspiracy of men or something preventing women from doing well when they set their minds to it.

Wouter

Bill,

There is some more factors that hurt women in regards to boat speed that I have'nt seen mentioned yet. Here goes:

Been doing some Laser coaching for some of our local hotshots, men and women, and doing some from the back video
to help sort out differences upwind. We paired up boats
choosing competeters of approx the same weight and height.

Factors that really hurt women:

For a given body weight, women TEND to be shorter than men.
Most classes don't measure height, but really should. This is hugh in total righting moment.

Also, we found that when we had a pair approx. equal height and weight man and woman racing against each other the men seemed always to have better upwind speed. Even when we felt that the woman had better (flater) hiking form. We attibute this to the weight distribution difference between the mans body and the womens body. Ever done that old party
trick of step an arm length from the wall and bend over until your head is against the wall? Women can stand up from this position and men can't. Men have a significantly higher CG. Even in the 15-17 year old group we were working with.

This is a big deal in a Laser, but the effect should abate as we boats get wider, right?


The generalizations about womens competitive fire: Wouter is going it alone there, I'm married.
Mark L

Wouter: Regarding "the western myth about women catching up to men and being the same".
The demographics shows a trend to fewer children being born. Even if women earns more money now, this does not make up for a decreasing western population. In the future we will probably be dependent on increased immigration to support our western lifestyle and economics..

Women and men are definately different. Even if we enjoy many of the same things, we dont enjoy all the same things. I agree with the teory that you call a myth, I think women are catching up to men. Altough they are doing it in their own way, just like your friend.
I dont know if this is going to be good for sailing or not.

Now I'm just waiting for Mary's insight..

Ahh but demographics are not that simple.

Families used to have more children in part because more would die in childhood or as young adults. No children are pretty much assured to become 70 years of age.

Also the problem with paying for social security is partly caused by the fact that the elderly don't drop dead around 65 or shortly after that. Now we are looking at having a significant pool of people between the ages of 65 and 90 relatively alot more than before. The surplus in demographics was caused by an increase in life expectancy and a delayed reaction in dropping birthrate because of cultural considerations. This skewed democraphics is now entering the 65-90 age en masse.

Also a little shrinking of the human population is not a bad idea. And the negative growth is only a few % now. Sure it will change things but personally I don't think that anybody has shown this change to be a bad one. We got to accept that societies and economics will change every now and then and that change is as natural as sunshine.

I also don't buy that we have to increase immigration to support our western lifestyles. Afterall I need food, work, housing, warmth and air. I don't really need glossy advertisement leaflets or billboards in the street for example. We can easily cast away a few area's of employment and use the labour enclosed in there to support the area's that need to continue. I'm stand fast in my beleive that western men has began to think 2 dimensional. Not 4 dimensionally. He had begun to think that the current society is what is needed to survive when it really is nothing more than a transitional stage toward and endless series of transitional stages. We have got to think more in terms of time and a 3rd dimension of space. We did think in the 3rd dimension of space when we had a surplus of labour in the 60's and after that. Afterall most people in Europe are now employed in the service sector which this sector being realy important to our survival and existance. Sure ensurreances deals are a central part in our society today but would it stop to exist tomorrow than we would easily survive. Afterall 65 % of the world population lives in societies WITHOUT this western sector of labour.

No, we as a species survive and thrived for millenia and are still here en masse. Ou numbers have both grown and collapsed drastically. China in 20th century anyone (and at other times); Bunbonic plague anyone. We are far more smart and flexible than western society would have us believe and as always we will adapt to the times and to a new society when it comes at our doors without to much effort.

>>I dont know if this is going to be good for sailing or not.

Well she sailed with me because she was what she is. If she were a pretty victorian lady then she would not have. So yes change was good from my perspective. The time now is good for it already. will this change in the future ? Maybe, maybe not. Probably a bit of both depending how far in the future you are going to look. The beginning of the midevil times was a major step back for our societies in the west; the spreading of the renaisance was a major step forward. These will continue to alternate eachother in the future.

Regards,

Wouter

I refered to using individual strong point to get a better overall result. There is a historic example that is interesting.

It is one of the basic differences between the way a European army fought and how the asian minor/arab/turk (AAT) armies fought many centuries ago.

European noble men and officiers valued bold courage and head on combat. The AAT noble men, (except the mamaluks in Egypt be they were white Christian soldier slave who later become noble men) prefered to fight by herding the enemy by encirclement and weakening him in a series of lightning attacks and taken chuncks out of the flanks and isolated groups.

The European noble men rode steads because the character of these suited their way of fighting. A stead would never back-out when trained properly and had no real qualms to ride into a thick mass of fighting men.

The AAT cavalery used mers (? = female horses) as they always turn away from danger or tight spots. Their cavelery would consist of mainly horse back archery where the mers ran around the enemy avoiding tight spots automatically while the rider concentrated on picking off enemy soldier with his small but high powered composite bow.

Of course the Huns under Attila perfected this AAT approach and were uttterly succesful with it. It completely parralized the european armies as they could not lure the ATT's into close combat. The Huns rode all the way from the far east to the far west and conquered all. They only stopped because their highest noble man died and the various noble men had to ride back to participate into the selection of the new leader.

This was of course one of the first implementations of manouvre warfare were the intrinsic chacracter of the female horse was one of the basic strongpoints maximized by a new overall tactic. Using these horse in a European way of doing combat would have produced inferiour results to using steads however in this AAT setup she performed superbly and better than a stead.

And there are many examples of how a change of tactic and stategy can change a weak point into strong point. The thing to learn is that you'll need to devise the setup that suits your situation best and not try to beat the other at the situation that suits him best.

Wouter

Wouter: Now we are really getting off-topic with this discussion

However, have you considered that todays demographics are incluenced heavily by the after-war births ? The increased birthrate in the late 40's and 50's causes a wave of elderly people about now, true.
But the demographics I'm interrested in, is the the large number of females who dont have babies. If you compare the numbers, you will se that the number of children born pr. female today is a lot less then 30 years ago. In other words, todays female (as a trend) dont want children, but wants to live free and have a good time instead (as we males have always wanted..)

I want to mention two small digressions with regards to your discussion of medevial warfare.
1: The crusades was quite strongly supported by the pope, as a way to rid Europe of to many troublesom noble sons, causing endless strife and war. And what better way to go to war, than doing it on a charger clad in gleaming armour (vanity).
2: The arabic world had it's own vanitiy with regards to warfare. Even after the assyrians had developed riding archers, they used war-chariots. In fact, they developed an even larger four horse/four man war-chariot. It was of no use on the battlefield, but it looked grand when going to war.. (vanity)

(I know, different time epochs, but I think the comparison holds true)

I agree with you that our western lifestyle has it's large faults. We have yet to reach a population size the earth can not support, if we in the western world are but willing to spend less resources. The question is, are we willing to change our lifestyle ? Nothing indicates that as far as I can see, the only changes I see are for the worse..
The earths population are increasing, but we who live in the western culture have stopped our growth..

Also, when our population has to choose between heavily increased taxes to finance pensions and health care for the large amount of elders, or accept increased immigration. What do you think will be the preferred ? Take into account also that our elders often are those most strongly opposed to immigration from "the third world", what would they vote ? To lower their pensions and part with other rights, when they probably will be in majority ?


BTW: This was posted on the Farrier-boat e-mail list today (in an attempt to get back to the thread):



I hope Mary will come with her toughts soon, or you (Wouter) and I will probably start discussing the relative importance of present demographics as related to ancient sailing on the Nile..

>>But the demographics I'm interrested in, is the the large number of females who dont have babies. If you compare the numbers, you will se that the number of children born pr. female today is a lot less then 30 years ago. In other words, todays female (as a trend) dont want children, but wants to live free and have a good time instead (as we males have always wanted..)


I don't buy that, sorry. I've seen quite a few career women by now who got hitch up at 30 sometimes and do the children thing right before it is too late. Like I said ; women are hard pressed to ignore their genetic imprint just as the men are because I see many men do the same as well. Also the fact that the birthrate per women is lower than say 30 years ago doesn't have to be explained by "Women don't want children" it is just as easily explained by "women want less children".

Of course I'm now about to state a very personal opinion so bear with me. I simply do not believe for a second that todays women want to have NO children, live free and just have a good time instead. Just as much as I don't think men want this in general as well. Sure, we all go to or went to rave parties, did do a bit of the free love thing and what not. But at the end of the reproduction age most of us still get into the game quickly before it is too late. At least the majority still does. Also our western culture highlights career and the gethering of wealth or power as the pinnacle of a rewarding life. But then again our culture idolize skinny little supermodels as well and last time I checked 85 % of the women do not look like that on the streets either. There is a profound difference between what is very prominant in the culture and what is really done or experienced.

One more point : "but wants to live free and have a good time instead (as we males have always wanted..)" for some reason the men really never took to this life en masse; did they ?

Afterall, our men hood is a much defined by the women and children as women hood is in relation to men and children; even though it is different in the details. Out standing as aging men is to a large extend derived from our family standing. A single old men still is regarded a dirty old geezer; not much romance there. And an old single lady is still regarded as an old spinner. Even by the young folk.


>>The question is, are we willing to change our lifestyle ? Nothing indicates that as far as I can see, the only changes I see are for the worse..

Is is going to happen anyway, during my studies I was very interested in the energy problem and it was already understood at that time that the Energy crisis (no more easy accessable oil) will give our societies a harsh shcok eventually. We have failed to modify our societies and now it is too late to soften the blow. With China taken up bigger and bigger shares of the oil production the western societies will over the next 25 years experience increasing and increasing energy prices. Ergo our current society is not going to survive as it is for another generation anyway. But as always we'll survive as a people and adapt to the changing reality.

Maybe it is even past our peak time for us and we will decrease in importance and hand the scepter to another emerging people and emerging empire/culture. Asia and China are the most likely candidate with Brazil and parts of latin america as good seconds. And our societies will maybe go the way of our demographics. Turn grey, old and tired and wither away unable to keep up with the new kid on the block.

Wouter

Wouter,

Population decreases happen periodically. Traditionally they are caused by disasters, diseases and wars. Of those, war is the only people-killer that increased its "efficiency".

Birth rates depend a lot on different hormone balances between women and men and also on the so called "cultural" factor - in fact, the two are very closely linked. Most sex-related aspects of cultures are caused and regulated by hormones.

As a species, our reaction to the growing perception of the likeliness of a malthusian chrisis is a change in cultural habits and hormone levels. We are actually passing through an important modification/adaptation of human behavior (= hormone balance = cultural change) to compensate for the new survival conditions (= environment) we are living. I would expect men and women to modify their hormone balance and "cultural" behavior more or less automatically while the available space and natural resources shrink.

The changes on ourselves are one of the causes of the "large changes in Western culture", more then a consequence of them. If the changes become more pronounced, women and men will continue to become more equal, especially in hormone balance, for it is the most efficient birth control system nature provided to our species.

Considering that the current population and the use of Earth´s resources are unprecedent, it is also reasonable to expect the hormonal and cultural changes to be the greatests ever - and this is a good thing if we consider that the main alternative is global war.

The hormone balance-cultural development link more or less explains the sexual behavior of "decadent" cultures in history. Rome, for instance. It also explains the polarized acceptance or rejection of homossexualism during contractions or expansions of the population.

Conlusion: women are already changing the way their look at life and sport and we should expect this change to continue in the same direction for a while. Actually, I HOPE it goes this way, because I see it as a key part of the peaceful solution for the upcoming Malthusian chrisis - possibly the greatest challenge humanity ever faced.

Take care,

Oh no, here we go..

Wouter: I think you are to optimistic re. birth rates and at what time in life we get children. The numbers indicate this at least.


Regarding the coming changes in western and global society, I agree with you.

It will be interresting to watch what will happen as oil becomes scarce. More wars for oil, or a peaceful transition to other materials and technologies.

Anyway, not much beachcats material in the last few postings..

This sub-thread about women has been one of the most interesting I have ever seen on this forum -- but that's probably because I am a woman.

I started this digression by asking why few (if any) women compete in Olympic level sailing on the classes of boats that are open to both men and women: Laser, 49er and Tornado.

Bill, Wouter, Rolf and Luiz all gave excellent answers. Bill Roberts is the only one who is way off base. He thinks the differences between men and women can be corrected by proper boat design.

But my theory is that if you use a boat that women and men can handle equally as far as strength and agility and endurance requirements, if righting leverage is not an issue and if weight is not an issue (and may even slightly favor women), men are USUALLY still going to win.

Let's take the Hobie Wave, for instance. No reason whatsoever why women should not be able to compete equally against men on that boat. And they probably can in fun, Wednesday-night beercan races, and maybe even in the Nationals and North Americans.

But if you put the Wave into SERIOUS competition and make it an Olympic class, men are going to dominate.

I think Wouter and Rolf and Luiz know the answer to why. It is so simple and basic.

It is hormone differences. When you are talking about competitive sports, it is about testosterone. Men have a lot more of it than women do.

Testosterone does not just make men stronger and faster. It also makes them more aggressive and competitive and combative. When women compete in sports it is a game. When men compete, it is WAR.

And, of course, at the Olympic levels, we are not allowed to add testosterone to our systems, because it is illegal under the anti-doping policy. (Look what Kevin Hall had to go through as far as getting approved to sail in Finn Class in the Olympics. He has to take testosterone injections because his body no longer makes it [testicles removed due to cancer]. He didn't know until a couple weeks before the Games whether they were going to approve him to sail.)

And that raises other interesting questions. If Kevin Hall had been sailing in the Laser Class instead of the Finn Class, would they have allowed him to race? The Finn Class is just for men. So obviously you need male-type testosterone levels if you are racing only against men. But, the Laser class is open to both men and women. Women have low testosterone levels. So if you are racing in an "Open" class, would it be fair to allow a man to add testosterone and not allow the women in the same class to do the same?

So the playing field is never going to be exactly equal even though we pay lip service to the idea that sailing is a sport in which men and women can compete against each other equally.

As I said initially, the only two Olympic sports in which men and women compete against each other are Sailing and Equestrian. Why is that? I think somebody a long time ago must have decided, "Well, in Equestrian the horse is doing all the work and in sailing the boat is doing all the work. The people are just riding on the horse and riding on the boat, in both cases they are just pulling strings."

Well, I have not been able to see any similarity between the two events. There is no "racing" in Equestrian events. And horses are not one-design. The horses do all the work. The riders need more skill than strength. The events are all individual. I haven't been able to find the results of the Equestrian events, but I would bet that not many women win in those "Open" events either. (But at least quite a few women are able to qualify to get to the Olympics in Equestrian, unlike "Open" sailing events.)

Heck, they don't even have men and women competing against each other in Shooting and Archery.

So let's get off this idea that women should be competing against men in sailing. The Laser? The 49er? Give me a break! The Tornado used to be very amenable to male-female crews in its old rig, because it was single trapeze, no spinnaker. It was set up perfectly for a woman skipper/male crew. A tiny woman could helm the Tornado, no problem, as long as she had a big, strong guy as crew. But, again, there is that problem with aggressiveness and competitiveness and combative fire that the helmsperson needs.

I think pretty much all women will agree with me regarding testosterone vis-a-vis sports. My daughter, who is a very competitive person, agrees with me. My sister, who has been racing sailboats as a skipper all her life, agrees with me. Any woman who has crewed for a man will agree with me.

So it is a farce to have these Olympic sailing classes that are declared as "Open."

Mary



Done a little but of digging around the Equestrian results and they make some interesting reading :

Details are Link to BBC website

Individual Events

Individual Eventing (female in bold)
18/08/2004 LAW Leslie SHEAR L' EAU GBR
18/08/2004 SEVERSON Kimberly WINSOME ADANTE USA
18/08/2004 FUNNELL Philippa PRIMMORE'S PRIDE GBR

Individual Dressage (female in bold)
25/08/2004 van GRUNSVEN Anky SALINERO NED
25/08/2004 SALZGEBER Ulla RUSTY GER
25/08/2004 FERRER-SALAT Beatriz BEAUVALAIS ESP

Individual Jumping (all male)
27/08/2004 O'CONNOR Cian WATERFORD CRYSTAL IRL
27/08/2004 PESSOA Rodrigo BALOUBET DU ROUET BRA
27/08/2004 KAPPLER Chris ROYAL KALIBER USA

The fact that all the Dressage medals went to female and the Jumping to male suggests there is still a physical aspect to the equestrian events.


Team events

The team dressage and eventing are more mixed (maybe the eventing needs the lady’s skills at dressage ?

The team Show jumping is all male except one (Beezie MADDEN)

That makes sense, that the women would do well in dressage. And maybe fewer men compete in dressage in the first place. And it also makes sense that men would do better in the jumping events. But in equestrian events, it is more about the horses than the riders, so I can't really see any parallels between equestrian and sailing.

Mary,
I believe there is a big message here.

Om prime time NBC , women sports, controlled at least 50% of the airwaves........it seemed like more, but the error on the conservative side,....lets say 50%

So, the world loves women as athletes!,...and the sponsers pay big bucks to show them!

So, why aren't women in sailing more? I agree, why are they not in sailing? You gotta answer this for me ( and others)?

I mean, the Olympic class boats are not 50 footers with 5000 s.f of sail area to horse around......

And the women in track and field, gynmastics swimming are far from weak wimps,.....in fact, they are darn impressive!

So, what gives?

Maybe we should all sell our gazillion dollar investment in our boats and go to Beach Volleyball as a sport,......why we would have to buy small gym suits and some real cool sunglasses.........and be on prime time TV about 10,000% more than olympic sailing,.....and put the rest of the money in the bank

regards,

Bruce

Actually in Equestrian (especially jumping) women may have the edge. I think mainly because of two factors. First, Weight: women are usually lighter than men; however, woman & men have about the same physical constitution in the lower part of the body (legs). In Equestrian the legs are very important and possibly are the part of the body that needs to be in better shape. Hence, woman will have less weight w/ about the same leg strength. The other factor is ‘empathy’. This is merely speculation on m part; but in Equestrian it ‘s very important that a strong connection/bond between the horse and the rider exist. We all know woman excel in that department
BTW: I was in the sport for 3 year as a teenager, also I have a close cousin that went to the Pan am games in this sport.

Testosterone actually doesn’t have to do much with how ‘competitive’ a person is. The competitive drive is very present on the female as well. Just look at the meticulous preparation a female subject takes before heading to a singles bar or club, that is fierce competition amongst females my friend!

Jaime

The results do not show this at all. Women took all the medals in dressage and the men took all medals in the jumping - individual.

Mary, to say that in equestrian events it`s the horse that does all the work while the rider just steers it is a way-off statement. The rider has to be able to assess every turn & approach to a jump, and issue the horse instructions through physical communication with the horse (legs, reins etc). They also have to be able to steady & slow down a sometimes over-eager horse, which can take some physical effort.
Dressage requires more precision, patience and finesse, a "softer" feel, which could be why women have the edge there.
When you get to jumping over 6ft triple-jumps and especially eventing, the fear factor comes into it as well. I think here men have the advantage, they seem to be able to deal with fear more easily, maybe it`s because we can block out the fear, or ignore the possible consequenses. I don`t know why this is, but I`d guess it`s why you find more men in sports like skydiving, paragliding, rock-climbing etc than women. It`s not that women can`t be as good as men in any of these, I think it`s that they are not prepared to take the same risks as men are.
I know some very good female paraglider pilots, they probably have a better feel for the air than most men in the sport, but most are not prepared to fly competition rated gliders, as they are more dangerous to fly than intermediate or sports gliders. In the context of sailing, that`s why more women will sail boats that they feel they can comfortably control, whereas men want to sail bigger, faster, more "on the edge" boats. In this respect I can`t see a women sailor pushing a 49er or Tornado as hard as a man would, and will take fewer risks at aggressive starts & mark roundings. Women have a higher sense of self-preservation than men, and unlike men, women can acknowledge that they are, in fact, mortal.
We`re fortunate in the sense that a mistake in sailing usually ends up in a swim, which most of us are not afraid to do once in a while.
What I`ve noticed in paragliding is that when a guy has an accident & breaks an ankle or wrist (ie a non-life threatening or paralysing accident), he can`t wait for the cast to come off so he can go flying again, (some fly with the cast !) while many women pilots, after even a bad landing where the injuries amount to some bruising or maybe a sprained ankle, tend to re-evaluate their desire to fly.
I don`t think it`s because they`re scared, I think it`s because they might just have a greater appreciation of what might have happened if the situation were a little worse.
From a personal viewpoint, my fiance broke her arm 3 times while horse-riding, and has decided that sailing with me is a bit safer ! This suits me fine since I have crew, however I know that if she is injured badly or is put into a possible life-threatening situation (like if we have to be rescued while sailing in the ocean), she might think twice about her involvement in the sport. She has tried paragliding and decided it`s not for her, while I still fly after having seen accidents that resulted in paralysis, and have lost more than one friend to the sport.
It probably is all about testosterone.

Cheers
Steve

Steve,
Sorry, I phrased that wrong. I did not mean to suggest that the riders do not do any of the work. Obviously, it takes strength and skill -- it's just that I think that even at the Olympic level men and women are probably able to both acquire the necessary levels of strength and skill. So I figure those factors are out of the equation, and then it just comes down to the speed, strength, and ability of the horse.

But in the Open Class Olympic sailboats, I think strength is very definitely a factor that gives men an advantage.

The psychological differences would apply in most sports where men compete directly against women.

Someone has suggested to me that the female of many species also take less risks because it is important for them to survive in order to have children and perpetuate their species. If most of the men get killed in battle, all the women need is one lucky male survivor.

In some horseback riding events, maybe the sex of the horse is a factor for the same reason -- the males are more likely to take risks. If Wouter is correct about the different way in which male and female horses used to react in battle situations, maybe that bit of history tends to corroborate the theory.

If that is the case, we now have to worry about the relative testosterone levels of the horses, too. Should female riders be required to ride male horses and vice versa, just to even out the testosterone?

I never should have started this topic -- now I have gotten myself totally convinced that I can never possibly beat a man in a sailboat race.

Well, you can race against me, You'll certainly win… if that makes you feel better.

-=O=-
_) _) _)

She beats up on many excellent male sailors!!!

4th H16 opens 1999 Ft Walton Beach 120 teams
5th H16 opens 2000 Kingston 45 teams

and continues to do it to this day!!

No it's not the Olympics but very few men could do that well!!

Susan is an awesome sailor. There are lots of great women sailors. My sister has been beating men all her sailing life, too.

But this thread was about the Olympics and why there are usually no women at all racing in the Open classes. I just theorized that those particular classes are, in general, too demanding for women to be competitive with men at the Olympic level.

And I suggested the reason for that is the difference in testosterone levels. My sister agrees with me, and my daughter agrees with me. So I have at least two women on my side.

If the Hobie 16 were an Open Olympic class, we would probably start seeing more women, both as skipper and as crew.

I think the designation of "Open" is silly for the Laser, 49er and Tornado (especially since the Tornado added the spinnaker), but it has been suggested to me that ISAF has to designate some classes as open, whether women are really ABLE to compete in them or not. It has something to do with an IOC rule -- maybe X number of classes have to be available to women.

Does anybody know about this? Does it have something to do with Title 9? I thought that was just for high school and college sports.

But if they do have to designate some "Open" classes, why don't they make at least one of them a true and realistic open class?

Susan can kick some butt and we can add Pease Glaser and Annie Nelson to that list.

Hi Mary,
In equestrian sports it`s a bit confusing, since male horses are divided into those who are still all male, and those who have had some equipment removed, which makes them a bit more docile ! Female horses you can at least bet on for consistency, except they all have their own personality. I promised myself a long time ago I would never do a sport where my equipment can think for itself !
Lucky for us, boats are pretty neutral, even though we call a ship female. Perhaps if women sailors could get male boats, they`d do better ?

This issue is an impossible one to resolve - I used to think women had less competitive drive than men, which could explain why fewer compete in sailing, but my crew (female) hates losing more than I do, so it`s not that. I remember a huge fight on the boat at one Nationals, after we`d just come 2nd in a race, because I thought "wow, we just came 2nd", while she thought "If you didn`t make that one mistake, we could have been first."
It might just be that because they are MORE competitive than men in some ways, and can`t stand losing, that they don`t want to compete, for fear of losing.
Then again, there`s a theory which states that, male or female, we`re all different. I`ll go with that one.

Cheers
Steve