Which cat is the fastest?

My question is as easy as which beach cat under 21' is the fastest? Obviously, some cats are especially fast under certain conditions, but taking an average of all conditions. Can the M20 claim the throne, or will the Eagle 20 put up a fight and even beat the M20? Any opinions?
Also, what is the top speed of the fastest cats around? I see Marstrom claims the M20 to be good for 30 knots on his web-site. Is this an absolute max? Any opinions?

It's going to be difficult to sort fact from fiction in this thread!

I would certain rank these as the fastest - although I would say that the Marstom 20 (there are two that race in the southeastern US) has not proven to be the performer we all expected it to be. 30 knots? While I think 30 knots is possible in a short burst (just before capsize) I don't think it is realistic to be able to sustain anything near 30 knots on any of these boats. I have not seen an Eagle in competition with other boats but I suspect that it might scare off the Olympic Tornado for outright speed. I have taken part in extensive racing between Nacra 20s and the Marstrom 20s and the Marstrom has displayed a moderate advantage over the Nacra (especially considering that it is about 1/2 the weight AND wider).

Olympic Tornado
Carbon Eagle

Marstrom 20
Nacra 20

Super Taipan

The one Randy Smyth is driving.

It strikes me that even though the M20 seems by the specs to be way faster than anything out there, there are quite a few who have the same impression as you Jake. Considering that Marstom has quite a bit of experience from A-cat sailing, one would expect the M20 to have a fast hull design. Being 30 kg lighter than the Eagle 20 should also give it an advantage. Still, you are not the first one, Jake, to be somewhat disappointed by its actual performance.

All though maybe not possible to sustain over a longer distance, 30 knots in a 20' cat is quite impressive!

There are many factors that make a beachcat fast! The most important [IMHO] is crew execution, sails available and their R&D that was put into them and the built in abilities [hull design, dagger vs center, carbon mast with or with out rotater, self tacking jib, etc. that the boats designer put into the boat. And finally the crew weight/bouancy factor in as well. You can go to any major regatta and see the latest hot boat finishing in the middle due to anyone of these factors.

For example when I bought my Tornados from Sail Craft in 1973 I thought I was fast until I saw Reg White [British Gold Medalist]sail a T about 100lbs heavier right past me. I caught a severe cold from him blowing my doors offffff...

Another example is the SC20TR Roberts sails. Is that boat that much faster or is Roberts that good a sailor. I think its the latter.

Its takes competition to reach a boats full potential. If you sail mixed classes the fastest design boats mistakes are exponential to that of the slow boats because the ratings don't take everything [sailor/crew skill, crew weight, etc.]into account mainly because there isn't an absolutely accurate way to do that.

Basically fast guys will make any boat go well.

thom
F25c 009
ARC22 2234
FMS 20 57

Keep in mind fastest as in top speed is not the same as speed around a course. For example, at the right wind angle the Hobie 16 is fast or for another the Tornado's top speed is limited by lift on the stern driving the bow under.

For top speed look at the speed runs made in England. I don't know if anyone is currently running them.

For speed around a course, it mostly depends on the skill of the driver and how well a boat is developed.

Upwind the A cat is the fastest.

Nil's A cat with spin will compete with the M20 and Tornado for fastest up and down.

Bill

Here is a story, I hope its not too long. I used to be in motorcycles. There was a gentleman at a dealer one day bragging about his new Z1000 (this was years ago). It just so happens that a manufacturers rep was there. Naturally a challenge was thrown down. The rep took a bike of almost equal size (a few cc's smaller even) and they took to the road. Well the rep blew the Z1000 away. Then he suggested they switch bikes. He beat him again!! So the moral of this story is and it has been proven again and again, each boats potential is determined by its occupants skill. Thats why in a mixed race you will almost always see some of the "smaller" boats beating the 20's boat for boat. Its not that the boat is faster, its who can make it go fast.

So, my suggestion is fwiw, get something you like and learn to sail it as best you can. Most of all, have fun. Otherwise its like a job you despise, you won't want to go there anymore.

Peace and fair winds,
Clayton
S27 (size does matter!) I can carry more beer!

The standard A-cat would beat the M18 and category 1 18sq's upwind, you think ?

Think again !

Besides the name of the game is "reach the finish line first" NOT "reach the A-mark first" !

For the remainder I agree with the statement that there are really only "fast crews" that seem to excell on almost any catamaran given to them.

Also I don't believe any 30 knots claim for a 20 foot cat or smaller. I think the top speed clocked anywhere up till now is 25 knots.

If I have to point to a singlehand I would would say Eagle 20 Carbon in sloop attire

Wouter

in theory you can just look at the ratings figures to get your answer. i wouldn't be surprised if the various ratings systems do not agree however.
also the wind and sea conditions will have bearing on the answer. for example the tornado seems to be the fastest heavy weather boat around a course which has shoals, whereas some of the other boats are optimized for more moderate conditions and all deepwater.

Is every single cat the same in that there is a point off or into the wind it is, its fastest. ? Oh last year up at Gilligans was'nt there someone who logged 40mph on his gps in that storm with a Hobie 17

I clocked 110kph = 59 knots with my GPS last saterday while sailing my cat.

I don't believe that reading either. We all know how undependable instantanious GPS speed readings are.

Show us the track with at least 60 second before and after that measurement showing 40 mph and I will show you a very suspect speed increase (drop)

Wouter

I was there, I think he posted that speed as he was catapulted into the air when the storm blew through.

I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.

Mine still stand as stated above

Is it still the Tornado Sport and /or the Marstrom 20?

Well it's between the Supercat 20 Tall Rig, the Eagle, CFR20, Marstrom 20, Inter20, and the Tornado.

Given under 8 knots I'd have to go with the light boats or the Supercat. In the heavier stuff I'd go with the Tornado.

Fact is nobody on this continent has seen the Eagle yet. So it's hard to have an informed opinion. My guess is it will run about like the CFR20 and Marstrom 20.

I'd like to see a race with some of the best sailors between the three light boats. It's never happened to my knowledge. So everything else is speculation as to which is faster.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Roberto (Semp Toshiba) was putting together his custom built Eagle in Florida earlier this year.

All the laws of physics still apply, the only variable is hull shape and most of them are now pretty close to the same (long and skinny). So at 20', the lightest boat with the most sail area and a wide platform to control the power in a blow (most righting moment), should be the fastest boat. The rest is up to the sailors.

Sounds like an SC20TR to me...

thom

In heavy stuff I would go with the SC20. It will take alot more abuse than a T and with the 12' beam its more forgiving.

thom

I disagree, it strongly depends on wind speed. I do not have any experience with the M18 but, I have watched A-Class against Cat 1 18 sq for 3 years and have sailed in it for 1 year.

Upwind:

The A-class has an advantage in very light wind


The A-class has an advantage from the point the A's fly a hull until the 18 sq starts to trap. From that point until the A's can't control it's even. After that the 18 sq's have the advantage.

Downwind.

It's even until the A's go wild. After that the A's are faster until it's too scary to wild thing (I have never seen an 18 sq go wild.)


This has been an gradual development. When the A's first appeared in my area 4-5 years ago, the 18 sq was faster. But, the A-class skippers have been getting faster mostly due to improved techniques

All of this depends on the skipper having enough experience to sail the optimum course for wind and wave.

Does anyone now of web-sites where I can find info about the Supercat 20 and the CFR 20?

Seriously? I've seen more SC20's have fitting and hull failures than Tornados (I can recount three critical SC20 issues - 2 hulls peeling up at the shrouds and one beam/hull retainer pin failure). However, to keep that in perspective, the SC20s that suffered damage had a good bit of age on them.

With regard to websites, you'll have a hard time finding much on the CF20 as it is pretty much a custom one-off that they're working the bugs out of. You can find out more about the Supercats at www.aquarius-sail.com

Is the ARC-21 the same cat as the Supercat 20? - 'Cause I did not find any info on the Supercat 20 at "aquarius-sail.com".

Nope, The ARC 21 is the same as an ARC 21.

Designer
Roberts / Haberman

Specifications

LOA: 21' 6" (6.55 m)
LWL: 21 ' 3" (6.48 m)
Spar: 33' 0" (10.06 m)
Beam: 8 ' 6" (2.59 m)
Draft, Rudders only: 2 ' 5" (0.74 m)
Draft, Board down: 4 ' 3" (1.30 m)
Minimum Weight: 400 lbs. (181.44 kg)
Maximum Sail Area: 282 sq. ft. (26.20 m2)

Mine weighs 417

No the ARC21 is a different boat. The CFR20 is a one of a kind as far as I know. There is one CFR20 being sailed in FL. The SC20 Tall Rig or SC20TR is different from a standard SC20 only in the sail and mast plan. The difference is huge and the SC20 is a totally different animal than the SC20TR.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

It all depends on what the hull number is. If its below 84 you probably have a bullet proof boat made by the original Roberts/Edmunds crew. These boats weighed within about 1/2 lb of each other with 25lbs of gelcoat on each hull. After the sale the quality control was out of Roberts hands and some hulls weighed much more than the other. When Haberman took over the quality came back. I sanded down my #57 to the glass. There were no soft spots/delamination or any other problems. I know a guy with a 1984 Sc20Tr which has both as you mentioned.

Its just a matter of intent of who is building the boat. I believe to this day some of the original guys would have never let one out the door that wasn't almost perfect.

I bought a SolCat 18 that didn't survive the first sail. Soft spots, loose daggerboat construction, caused the boat to literally sink to below the surface. The shop I bought it from gave me a new boat [see pic] that I sailed until I bought my Tornado US498.

The SC boats were designed to survive the Atlantic Ocean not just a bay or lake. I have had two of the original SC20s that were true strong boats that went through the surf and waves as well as any boat I have had. I know my ARC22 won't take what my SC20 will because its designed for light air while the SC20 is designed for it all...

thom

Yeah and you would think the T and SC20TR would have a DPN in the same time zone.

SuperCat 20 TR, Unmod n/s SC20H 63.8 67.1 65.0 63.6 59.8

Tornado (Int.) 2-Trap spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 57.9 55.5

So which is it, is the SC really fast with gift DPN, or a dog compared to the T?

How does the ARC21 end up at 61.5 with 8'6" beam? Even if you give up the spi you are at 62.3....

2004 TABLE OF NORTH AMERICAN PORTSMOUTH NUMBERS
AND WIND DEPENDENT HANDICAPS
MULTIHULL CLASSES
June 2004

Changes are indicated in blue


MULTIHULL CLASSES USSA DPN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
*************************** CODE BN 0-1 BN 2-3 BN 4 BN 5-9
18m2 (Cat.1 Open) 18SM-1 63.9 68.4 65.2 63.7 58.0
18m2 (Cat.2 incl 11' Nacra 5.5 18SM-2 67.1 69.0 67.0 66.5 64.0
A Class Cat A-C 65.0 70.1 65.8 64.4 61.5
A Class Cat >200# all-up A-C2 70.1 72.9 71.1 69.0 66.3
Antrim 30+ Tri ATM30 64.5 (63.0)
ARC 17 w/spi ARC17 (70.0)
ARC 21 w/spi ODR ARC21 61.5 [65.3] 62.2 [61.1] [58.0]
ARC 22 ODR/SC22 spi ARC22 57.0 60.4 57.7 57.0 55.3
Catnip A-Class CN (74.1) [80.0] (74.9) [73.4] [69.0]
CFR20 Uni carbon w/spi CFR20 58.4 62.0 59.7 58.4 57.5
Dart 18 Sloop, 2-up D18 76.9 82.8 80.8 76.9 71.1
Dart 18 Uni (1-up) D18U 78.5 85.1 82.0 78.5 72.2
Dart 20 D20 72.4 76.0 75.0 72.9 66.2
Dingo DINGO 81.1 87.3 83.5 80.5 74.1
F-24 Tri Mk I All Sails F-24 76.0 79.9 77.2 75.6 74.3
F-24 Tri Mk II All Sails F-242 74.3 77.6 75.3 74.0 72.0
F-25C Tri Carbon All Sails F-25C 62.3 67.5 64.7 62.7 58.0
F-27 Formula All sails F-27F 68.5 71.9 69.0 66.7 65.1
F-27 Tri All Sails F-27 70.5 72.6 73.0 71.0 65.7
F-28 Tri Stock Main&Jib F-28 66.6 70.6 68.2 67.2 63.9
F-28R Tri All Sails F-28R 64.6 67.8 66.2 64.6 61.3
F-31 Tri Stock Main&Jib F-31 66.2 72.0 68.2 68.1 66.2
F-31R Tri All Sails F-31R 62.1 65.4 64.2 62.5 59.9
Formula 16 Sloop spi F16 66.9 70.3 68.4 65.4 63.1
Formula 16 Uni 1-up spi F16U 67.6 71.5 70.0 67.3 64.4
Formula 18 Sloop spi F18 62.5 66.4 64.1 61.8 59.3
Formula 18HT Uni 2up spi F18HTU 59.7 63.4 61.0 60.5 57.3
G-Cat 5.0 Turbo S.Hand, reacher G5.0-3 (72.2)
G-Cat 5.0m G5.0 76.0 82.4 78.4 76.0 69.9
G-Cat 5.7m G5.7 72.7 78.0 74.8 72.0 66.2
Hirondelle 24 HRD24 [95.1] [95.1]
Hobie 14 H14 86.5 95.1 90.2 85.6 81.3
Hobie 14 Turbo (1-up) H142 83.1 86.4 85.1 81.1 79.4
Hobie 16 H16 76.1 81.7 78.7 74.1 71.6
Hobie 16 Trapseat H16TS [78.0]
Hobie 17 (1-up) H17 74.1 78.5 76.3 73.7 69.5
Hobie 17 Sport Sloop, 2-up H17P 74.5 78.0 74.8 74.0 71.5
Hobie 18 & 18 Magnum TheMightyHobie18 71.4 76.9 73.5 69.6 66.8
Hobie 18 Formula H18F 71.6 78.5 73.2 71.0 66.2
Hobie 20 Miracle H20 64.9 69.4 66.4 64.2 61.3
Hobie 21 no spi H21 67.1 71.9 69.2 66.4 61.7
Hobie Dragoon 2-3crew no spi HDRG [83.0] [87.5] [84.7] [82.8] [81.5]
Hobie Fox w/spi HFOX 60.6 63.7 61.7 60.5 58.0
Hobie FX-One 1-up no spi HFX1U [71.2] [74.5] [73.0] [71.2] [69.1]
Hobie Getaway HGET 82.4 [87.5] 85.1 [81.1] [80.0]
Hobie SX-18 spi H18SX 70.7 75.6 73.1 70.1 65.3
Hobie Tiger F18 spi HF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Hobie Tiger ODR spi HTIG 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Hobie Wave HWAV 92.4 96.0 93.2 90.4 90.1
Isotope (Sloop, 1-up) ISTP 74.2 78.9 74.3 73.8 68.1
Isotope (Sloop, 2-up) ISTP-2 (77.1) [82.5] (78.4) [76.7] [70.8]
Javelin 18HT Uni 2-up spi JF18HTU 59.7 [63.4] 61.0 [60.5] [57.3]
Loka (A Class) LOKA 76.2 [80.3] (78.0) [75.5] [71.0]
Malibu Outrigger MAOT [79.0]
Marstrom M-20 carbon w/spi M20 56.5 60.1 58.2 56.5 53.6
Mystere 4.3 Sloop 1-2 Crew spi M4.3 S 78.4 83.8 81.9 77.9 75.7
Mystere 5.0 1-Trap M5.0 (76.1)
Mystere 5.0 XL, 2-up M5.0XL 75.5 [80.0] (77.4) [75.0] [69.0]
Mystere 5.5 8.5' Sloop M5.5 66.2 70.9 68.8 65.7 61.9
Mystere 6.0 M6.0 63.9 68.6 66.6 64.2 61.2
Mystere 6.0XL & 6.0XL w/wing M6.0XL 64.0 69.0 66.8 63.6 60.2
Mystere Twister F18 spi MF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Nacra 4.5/450 Turbo 1-up N450T 76.9 80.4 79.6 77.0 74.4
Nacra 5.0 (2-up) N5.0 [76.4] [80.7] [79.0] [76.5] [73.0]
Nacra 5.2 (2-up) N5.2 72.1 78.1 74.8 71.4 66.4
Nacra 5.5 (11'Beam) See: 18SM-2
Nacra 5.5 8.5' Sloop N5.5 67.4 73.9 69.4 65.5 61.2
Nacra 5.5 8.5' Uni N5.5U 69.7 74.8 72.0 69.3 64.5
Nacra 5.7 (2-up) N5.7 72.3 75.5 74.9 72.2 68.6
Nacra 5.8 No.Amer. N5.8NA 66.2 70.7 68.3 65.6 61.3
Nacra 5.8 Orig.(2-up) N5.8 66.5 72.1 69.1 65.6 61.0
Nacra 500 (2-up) N500 76.0 80.3 78.6 76.2 72.6
Nacra 570 (2-up) N570 70.2 76.0 73.7 71.2 64.3
Nacra 6.0 New Eng. 350 spi N6.0NE (60.3) [63.4] [62.0] [60.1]
Nacra 6.0 No.Amer. N6.0NA 62.7 65.9 64.1 61.7 59.6
Nacra 6.0 Orig. N6.0 64.4 69.7 66.0 63.4 59.8
Nacra Inter 17 Uni 28' NI17U 73.2 75.7 75.0 73.2 71.0
Nacra Inter 17R Uni 30' spi NI17R 66.7 69.0 68.5 66.7 65.1
Nacra Inter 18 spi NI18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Nacra Inter 20 spi NI20 59.2 62.4 60.2 58.5 57.3
Nacra Inter F18 Sloop spi NF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Pixel 23 Sloop Outrigger PIX23 [80.9]
Prindle 15 P15 76.4 81.7 78.4 75.8 72.1
Prindle 16 P16 77.5 84.2 80.6 76.3 71.3
Prindle 18 P18 74.9 81.3 77.4 74.6 69.0
Prindle 18-2 P182 68.9 72.4 71.7 68.5 64.8
Prindle 19 P19 66.4 71.7 68.8 64.5 61.3
Prindle 19MX P19MX 64.4 69.5 66.5 63.8 61.0
RC-27 spi 41.5' mast All Sails RC-27X 56.0 (60.7) (57.6) [55.8] (52.0)
RC-27 spi 44' mast All Sails RC-27 55.4
RC-30 spi 45' cbn All Sails RC-30 53.4 55.5 54.0 52.3 50.2
Sea Spray 15 (Sea Moth) SPY15 78.1 86.0 80.9 76.3 72.0
Shark SK 73.0 77.1 75.5 73.3 68.1
Sol Cat 15 SOL15 79.9 (81.1)
Stiletto 23 (3-Up) STL23 65.0 70.5 67.5 65.3 61.3
Stiletto 27 STL27 75.1 80.0 76.9 75.4 69.5
Stiletto 27 Race All Sails STL27R (64.7)
Stiletto 30 STL30 67.5 [72.9] 70.1 [69.3] [65.3]
SuperCat 15 SC15 78.4 84.0 79.7 78.0 71.2
SuperCat 17 SC17 73.3 79.6 76.6 71.9 67.0
SuperCat 19 SC19 69.0 74.1 72.2 68.1 62.6
SuperCat 19X & 19XL SC19X 66.5 72.1 68.6 66.5 61.2
SuperCat 20 SC20 65.0 70.5 67.4 65.2 59.8
SuperCat 20 (TR, Unmod) SC20H 64.4 67.1 65.3 63.6 58.8
Taipan 4.9 Sloop no spi T4.9 68.3 72.9 70.8 67.5 64.9
Taipan 4.9 Uni no spi T4.9U 69.9 73.8 71.7 69.9 66.6
Taipan 4.9/F16 Sloop spi TF16 66.9 70.3 68.4 65.4 63.1
Taipan 4.9/F16 Uni 1-up spi TF16U 67.6 71.5 70.0 67.3 64.4
Taipan 5.7 Sloop w/spi T5.7 60.7 66.0 63.0 61.2 58.0
Tornado 1-Trap no spi TORN2 63.8 67.0 65.6 63.1 60.6
Tornado (Int.) 2 Trap & spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 58.1 55.5
Trac 14 TRC14 84.5 (90.5) 86.9
Trac 16 TRC16 76.3 82.1 80.8 76.0 69.9
Unicorn (A Class) UC-A 75.2 81.3 76.5 73.6 69.0
WindRider 16 Tri WR-16 [81.9]
WindRider 17 Tri WR-17 [80.0]
WindRider Rave Formula WRAVF [76.5]
WindRider Rave OD scrchr WRAV2 [76.5]
WindRider Rave OD Tri WRAV [77.0]

Ding; You are comparing SC 20TR base rating(no spin, pin head main) to that of the optimized Tornado. Hence, a big rating difference. If we add the spin and square top mods to the SC 20TR, I think the numbers get alot closer. Still, light to medium air, the SC 20 TR rating is gravy. Heavy air, and I think the T's rating is pretty sweet. Anyway, who said portsmoth rating/racing is fair?

It all really depends on whose sailing the boat...

thom

What are the specs on the SC 20 TR?

20 LOA, 12'beam, 360sq ft main/jib, don't know what the spin size for certain but I think its around 600sq ft. and approximately 475lbs. Roberts said its the same boat basically as the ARC22 just 2 feet shorter. I believe the masts are different regarding spreaders and prebend.

thom

I must have missed the multiplier for that one.

Good point on the numbers:

SuperCat 20 TR, spin and squr top mn SC20H 60.9 64.3 62.1 60.7 57.5

Tornado (Int.) 2-Trap spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 57.9 55.5

Keep in mind the SC20 TR finally took a rating hit for 05'.

I have less of an issue with the new SC 20 TR numbers.

The 'T' is the fastest 20 foot multihull in a breeze including the M20, SC 20 TR, Inter 20, N6.0 and the CFR 20. As Jake pointed out there aren't any Eagles in the US yet, but I suspect the Eagle will give the 'T' a run for its money.

The SC 20 TR is NOT a big air boat. It is optimized for light air and is simply out of it's element in a breeze, sooner or later it's stick down hull up.

As for the comment about DPN being fair. I'm sorry have you not met me... I'm David (DPN is a POS) Ingram.

Dave

Sounds like a good sail number:

[color:"red"] DPN za POS [/color]

It seems that this discussion adresses at least 2 different questions:
1. Which boat is the fastest around a race track or on sections of a race track? (disregarding the crew-skill factor)
2. Which boat can reach the highest top speed?
The latter question raises the problem of measurement method. The GPS-method is simple, but Wouter here points out questionable reliability of the method. I suppose the problems orginate from conditions when more than 3 satelites are not received continuously?
My Magellan Meridian color used to produce erronuously high numbers before fixing a bad contact in the power circuit. With a 1-second update period, it now seems to be accuarate all the time, based on comparisons with numbers on my car speedometer (with known rather constant error).

Can anyone give us information on how to get reliable speed data?!

Stein

your name would'nt be steve wiseman would it? but any way i sa il a broken down 17 supercat and on maui i am the fastest so far on maalaea bay maui

I think the whole question is silly; score another point for real one design racing.

In my twenty-five years of sailing these things, I never once said "Damn! This thing is just not fast enough!). Relax, and enjoy the ride.

Wyatt