Fat Head Sail

Rather than copy all the posts from the previous "Fat Head Sail" thread into this forum I'll just provide a link to them here. Then the discussion can continue from here.

Fat Head Sail - Page 1

Fat Head Sail - page 2

I have recently purchased a second hand mosquito in Queensland as a trainer for a few years before getting into an F16. Because there are no other mosquitos in Brisbane and the old sail was shot, I decided to purchase a new main with an oversize head.

The taipan sailors at the club have mentioned that it looks good but I suspect this is based on aesthetics rather than performance potential.

Unfortunately I have been rebuilding broken rudders since Christmas and have only been out a few times beforehand (only two races). Since this is my first time in cats, my crew and I are still learning the ropes and there are no other mozzies to sail against performance evaluation of the square top is a long way off. However, I will try to keep this message board updated on VYC handicap results against the taipans and such as this would be a reasonable indicator.

One quick advice regarding squaretops. Don't pull the head in to the centreline. Try to sail with a nice continious amount of twist. The top should nearly always be about 200 to 250 mm out from the centreline. You'll need this twist profile to reduce pressure on the top and to cut down on the tip vortex which can add alot of drag to the rig. Pulling in the sail to tight will feel like the boat is bound up. That it should go alot faster but won't. A squaretop that is too far open (twisted off) will feel underpowered, you'll be sitting in and going slow as well. Finding the right twsit profile can in some cases feel like you just dropped a large chunk of lead. The boat will feel free, agile and quick again. Remember induced drag on the rig accounts for about 30-35 % of the total boat drag and it is the single biggest drag component in relation to hulls drag, board drag. It can make or break your race quickly.

Wouter

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From my foot down measures as a mosquito main, from my foot up does not measure (approximately the top third is over size).

Hi Nickb,

I would be interested to know, what is the actual measurement from head eyelet to first batten position at leech? (Head width?)

It looks like it is bigger than old experimental Fathead main. Who made the main?

That rubber block at head shackle looks like what is used for push up luffs, it isn't push up is it?

Must say, it looks like the type of head I was interested in putting on a Mossie, until I did the "Altered" thing.

Regards Gary.

Hi Guys
I'm also very interested to find out how the mossie will perform with a fat head main. So far from what I have read you chaps in Oz have been against the idea since the initial experiment which was not to succesful as I understand it.

We in S Africa have spent many hours, days, weekends over many many beers talking on this subject. The one idea (I like) is to bring the mosquito into line as to what is happening currently with all the other cat classes on the market.

Introduce the fat head main, make the boom shorter so that sheeting of the main will be off the clew of the main. Boom can then be lighter. Still keep the same sail area. I'm sure that this type of sail shape will perform beter over a wider wind range (6 to 25 Knots) as opposed to the old pin head shape over the same wind range, which is the range of wind we normaly race in.

Hi Sarel

I wasn't in Mosquitoes at the time, but from what I heard the experiment with the square top sail was very successful. The people who tried it out liked it, some claimed it made the boat easier to handle in a strong breeze and it looked good. It wasn't shown to be any faster at that stage, which was another point in it's favour (it wouldn't make the old sails instantly obsolete).

Sadly it didn't become the sail we all use today, but it sounds like that was because in the end a majority were persuaded that it would be bad for the class overall. Many threatened to leave the class if it was adopted.

It's easy to see now (20/20 hindsight!) that those concerns were wrong, as the sail wasn't changed and the class virtually came to a standstill anyway while the Mozzie owners switched to Taipans and sailing became less popular in general. The square top would have served the Mosquito well over the last 12-14 years if we'd had it.

The situation now is a little different. The sail that was being considered then worked ok on the existing mast, but would now look just as out-of-date as the current sail. The square top sail that would be considered these days is more radical than 14 years ago and there's serious doubts that our very lightweight mast will do the job. It will be interesting to see the results of your experiments with the short boom.

The other important thing to remember is that rather than being in crisis control mode, the class is actually growing now. You have to think about what it is about Mosquitos that's attracting people to the class - and be very careful not to mess that up. Right now the Mosquito has some unique features among the catamaran classes (eg. performance for the cost, easiest cat to handle a spinnaker, easy to handle out of the water and fast in everything from a drifter to survival). There's no point blindly making the Mosquito like other catamaran classes if that just makes the Mosquito irrelevant.

I can understand why you guys in SA want to make your Mosquitoes faster, but there is a simpler way, with all the design, testing and research already done for you. It's only a small change, but the next Mosquito you build, use a set of Taipan plans instead.

"I can understand why you guys in SA want to make your Mosquitoes faster, but there is a simpler way, with all the design, testing and research already done for you. It's only a small change, but the next Mosquito you build, use a set of Taipan plans instead. "

Hi Tim, your response made me laugh - true, but then I`d go with the Blade.
But on the other side of the argument, a squaretop main that DOES work with the existing mast-section and makes the boat easier to sail in stronger winds and more efficient in lighter winds would increase the appeal of the Mozzie, not decrease it. Perhaps a "phasing-in period" would help prevent the "it will kill the class" brigade from once again stopping all development. I like the look of Nick`s sail, I`m guessing the head is about 800mm which is quite extreme for the mast, it may twist off too much or too early, but we will only know that once he has a new mast !

Steve

Again, you can stiffen up to top by moving up the hound fitting and spreader assembly.

Wouter

I'm considering doing that Wouter. I may raise the hounds about 300mm, raise the top of the diamonds to just below the hounds and add an extra set of spreaders to the diamonds. Should be good.

I don't understand the argument that changing a sail plan will cost too much and people will leave the class. In pretty much every class I've sailed in, jibs need to be replaced atleast yearly and the mains get replaced every two years. This leads to an unavoidable and automatic phase in period.

If people are keeping their sails for much longer than these periods, they are probably not concerned about their performance. The argument that the introduction of a new sail will obsolete old sails is flawed because old sails need to be replaced anyway. Sails should be considered a consumable item in sailing.

However, occasionally someone will stumble across an old sail that performs well and these people are lucky, and generally good sailors too. These people that are lucky and good sailors shouldn't care about the rest of the fleet catching up to them because I believe close competition will grow the class. Eventually these lucky and good sailors will also need to replace their sails, at which time they can get the new sail plan.

Disclaimer: It may look like I am trying to promote the sail plan I have but that's not entirely true. I have gone with this mainsail because there are no other mosquitos in Brisbane and I am trying to compete with taipans (once I stop breaking the boat!). The reason I bought a mosquito is because it was available at a reasonable price and I considered it a good training boat for an F16 and a potential platform to modify into an F16. However if the mosquito class were to adopt a spinnaker (maybe in the form of a mosquito mark III) and a new mainsail planform, then I may consider it a better option due to all the good points the class has.

Well, that's enough of a rant for today.

Nick.

Hi Nick,
Your approach is interesting, one which I believe you`re not far wrong about (that sails ultimately need replacing more often than most of us do.) My sails are from 2000, but are in good condition because we had them made from the heaviest cloth we could get (not good for weight aloft but good for durability), and sadly because I sail my boat far too infrequently.
I would love to go the squaretop route, but not because my sails need replacing, rather that I believe it will provide a better handling boat with more speed in most conditions.
Your approach that you need compete against faster boats and are not concerned about staying within class rules is also interesting since it allows you to modify things without too much regard for the rules.
With respect to what Wouter suggested, we have considered splicing an additional 300mm of mast section to the bottom of the mast, in effect this lengthens the mast by 300mm, but also moves the hounds, spreaders and diamond wires up by 300mm, assuming you have the hounds and spreaders where they are supposed to be on the existing mozzie mast, I see no reason why the mast will not stand up to the loads, except that there will be 300mm of mast at the base that is not stiffened by diamond wires, perhaps we would need to move the lower diamond wire chainplates down and have longer diamond wires made up, relatively cheap operation (any comments Wouter ?) The reason for this is not to lengthen the mainsail luff, but so that our crew can get under the boom faster while tacking !! These are all just ideas in our heads right now, glad to see an Auzzie trying things out first

If you sail a minimum weight, well set up boat, with a decent mainsail ( that measures under existing rules ) and get some coaching/advice from experienced Mosquito sailors, with practice, you will find you can sail with the Taipans.
Darryn

Darryl,

Are you sure that you didn't intend to write :

If you sail a minimum weight, well set up boat, with a decent mainsail ( that measures under existing rules ), get some coaching/advice from experienced Mosquito sailors, alot of practice [color:"red"]while the Taipan crews didn't do those thigns as well [/color] then you will find you can sail with the Taipans.


WOuter

No I didnt intend to write what you have added Wouter. Whats the closest you have been to a Mosquito catamaran Wouter, 2000km? You dont know enough to know what you dont know Wouter.

The intention of my post was to encourage Nick to develop his sailing skills and boat within the guidelines of the Mosquito class which will have a positive effect on his results against any class.
Darryn

Yeah, what do I know ehhh Darryl ?

Wouter

Just to clarify something which appears I didn't make clear...

I am developing my F16 sailing skillz by purchasing a boat I can afford at this point in time that would measure as an F16 and would give me a platform to upgrade over time, that happened to be a mosquito.

Since my boat is a mosquito, apart from the main, I am gathering as much information about mosquitos as possible to learn how to sail and setup my boat better.

It was my impression that the mosquitos were considering an update of their allowed mainsails so I was merely adding my experiences to the classes knowledge already in this area.

I feel that my only response to Darryl's comment is to compare the current Yachting Victoria yardsticks for the two classes.

Mosquito (all) - 84
Mosquito (spinnaker) - 80
Taipan (cat) - 76.5
Taipan (sloop) - 73.5

The taipan sloop should beat a mosquito by over 10 minutes in ever 100 of race time (is that the correct interpretation of the handicap). To add to my woes, I believe the current taipan sloop national champion races from my club. Maybe in some conditions I may have a chance (do mosquitos do well in light air against their handicap?) but I think a taipan that is getting beaten by a mosquito is going pretty slow. It's my understanding that a taipan is a similar weight, length and beam to a mosquito, but with more sail area...if this is correct it's no wonder they are faster!

As I said before, I am merely sharing my experience of a different mainsail on a mosquito platform with the people of this forum. I put my two cents in about the idea that sails should be replaced regularly because that is my opinion and I think it is a damn good argument against people using the excuse of not wanting to update the classes mainsail planform because it will make their sails obsolete (still haven't heard a good argument to refute my opinion).

If people want to hear this information I am eager to share it. However if it is not wanted I will post it in the F16 forum.

Best regards,
Nick.
Here endeth the rant.

Nick,
The Mozzie is a great way to introduce yourself to F16 or spi. cat sailing in general, so stick with it for a while. There are a lot of sailors who desperately want the Mozzie to stay a 1966 design, can`t fault them since it worked well for Hobie. The Mozzie unfortunately lacks the big corporate marketing machine that is Hobie, and I believe that it will need to take the leap forward at some time, or be remembered as a nice little boat that you could sail if you couldn`t afford a Taipan. I don`t believe changing sailplans etc will make it as fast as a Taipan, but by narrowing the gap you will make it that much less attractive to sell the boat and get a Taipan, so I believe constant gradual development can only do the class good.
Darryn sails uni-rig from my understanding based on previous discussions with him, and from reports I`ve heard from him he tends to beat the sloop-rigged Taipans when the wind is over 20knots. Now call me confused, but in S. Africa the sloop Mozzies are faster than solo in over 14knots, in Aus it seems opposite. Too many variables, could be the solo sailors are the better of the bunch ? Another variable could be that the Taipan sailors Darryn races are not the top of the fleet, but only Darryn can answer that. Yes, I`ll agree with him that learning the boat and working at it will narrow the gap, but as Wouter says, problem is when the Taipan sailors do the same.
Remember, handicap ratings are imperfect, the Mozzie may be easier to sail than the Taipan in stronger winds, making it the "faster" boat in certain conditions. If you don`t already have the spinnaker, get one, it will make racing non-spi Taipans very interesting !
Oh yes, and send pics of your mainsail rigged on the boat when you get your mast sorted.

Steve

Steve,

Sloop rigged Taipan and Mosquitos are definitely faster then cat rig Mosquito in wind over 20 knots. While I may have beaten sloops in those conditions I certainly don't think its the norm.
Cat rig Taipan versus Cat rig Mosquito in wind over 20knots, I would expect to race with Taipan cat rig backmarkers and beat the first Taipan on handicap if VYC yardsticks are used.
As for the standard of the sailors I race against, they are club sailors like myself.

No more from me on this thread,
Darryn

Yeah, the cat rigged taipan back-markers are my benchmark atm without kite. If I can keep with them then I'll be happy.

The taipan sailors at the club have also said a mozzie will perform very well in a breeze. Now I've got to stop breaking the thing in a breeze!

I will post photos as soon as the mast is sorted.

Nick.

Hi Nick

Keep posting the information on your mainsail. This is definitely the right place for it. It's great to have someone making the effort to try out an idea like this. There's no other way to find out if it will work.

The Taipan is wider as well as having the taller & bigger rig. You are right that in most other respects it's like a Mosquito.

Mosquitos are competitive in a drifter, but as the wind increases bigger cats get on trap earlier and leave the Mosquitos behind. Once the Mozzies get on trap they are back in the race.

As far as performance goes, what we see at regattas in Victoria is:

• Cat rigged Taipans are definitely slower than sloop rigged Taipans once everyone is trapezing.
• Cat rigged Mosquitos are slightly slower than sloop rigged Mosquitos above 15 knots and in waves.
• Cat rigged Mosquito is faster than sloop in 10 knots or less.
• Well sailed Taipans are a lot faster than well sailed Mosquitos (note: despite the rumours even a Mosquito with a spinnaker can still be beaten on handicap by a good Taipan - see last year's
  Wildcat results).
• However,a Taipan that is not sailed well performs well below it's handicap and can be beaten around the course by a well sailed Mosquito.
• A Mosquito with a spinnaker is fun to sail in everything up to 20 knots (maybe more) whereas the Taipans do not want to use spinnakers in 20 knots (what's the point when you are already at terminal velocity ).

Thanks, Tim & Darryn for clearing up my misconception. We (the RSA Mozzies) had believed that your uni fleet would be faster around a course than your sloop guys, even if it was windy. We must have got that info from someone / somewhere, but these last two posts clears things up a bit.
Having said that, when our National champ sails uni in up to 14knots he is still damn hard to beat if I`m sloop, over 14knots it only gets a little bit easier to stay with him, and that includes us both on spi. downwind. But in over 20knots sloop is just so much faster.
Skill level still plays a huge role, as you said Tim, well sailed Moz can beat an average Taipan sailor, I have had Hobie Tigers behind me but then I know there is a difference in skill levels, it proves nothing about the boat`s potential.
Darryn, I was not questioning your integrity about finishing ahead of Taipan sloops in 20knots, just letting Wouter know that from what I`ve heard you are no slouch against the Taipans in these conditions.

Steve

Going back to the subject of sail twist with the fat top sail, I just found this recent photo of Gary on Altered.

What does everyone think? Right or wrong? Could he make this leech stand up? Would it be possible to over sheet it? Gary should be able to tell us from the mainsheet blocks, whether he has it sheeted in or not here.

Hard to tell without seeing telltales. I reckon it's under-sheeted, but I'm a n00b to cat sailing...

Nick.

Hi Tim,
As usual, a great photo of Gary styling on an awesome boat.
I think that he looks pretty much sheeted in max there, looking at the blocks. Most cat mainsails are designed with a certain amount of twist built into them, so if your leech stands up all the way to the top, you are in effect oversheeting the bottom 2/3 of the sail. I`m certainly no expert here, but from what I understand, twist is good, not only to depower the sail, but aerodynamically as well. Something about the wind higher up flowing faster than lower down, or at a different direction, whatever. Maybe the aeronautical engineer`s who visit these forums can explain it.
Looking at modern windsurfer rigs, the sail is designed to have quite a lot of twist, so much so that when you look at the sail on the beach, the leech is floppy, this depowers the rig before you have even sheeted in, but also has the effect of creating a large amount of twist. Now why would they do that if they could rather rig a smaller sail and have the leech stand up straight, it would still depower in the gusts due to the flexible mast. The answer must be that a large sail with a twisted off head is faster than a smaller sail with a straight leech. Perhaps in cat-sailing this is all different, maybe too much twist will hurt your pointing ability, but if your speed is much better you might still be first to the weather mark.
Just my opinion, so all those who have a degree in aircraft or sail design, feel free to straighten me out.

Mmmm, very interesting. The theory I have running around in my mind right now is that as the boat pitches and accelerates/decellerates over/through waves causing the sail to move back and forth through the wind, the apparent wind moves forward and aft very quickly, say through 10-20 degrees for every wave that is encountered.

So you need to be able to change the sheeting angle of your sail to obtain the maximum thrust from this ocsillating apparent wind. As the boat pitches backwards the apparent wind shifts aft a bit and as the boat pitches forward the apparent wind shifts forward a bit.

Changing the sheeting angle is very difficult, or impossible, to do fast enough on many boats. So another technique needs to be developed to allow the sail to operate efficiently at all these different angles of attack very quickly. Dinghies do it by pumping and "bouncing" the crews body weight through waves, although it is illegal, as this moves the rig towards the wind and counteracts the apparent wind moving aft as the boat/sail is pitching aft.

Cats don't tend to operate the main much upwind so a different technique has evolved, big head mainsails with the right amount of twist, not too much, not too little. With the right amount of twist, the sail will "on average" operate more efficiently as different sections of sail at different heights change between being highly efficient and then inefficient. So while one section at the top may be operating poorly, a section at the bottom may be operating highly efficiently. Then when the boat pitches the other way the top will start operating highly efficiently while the bottom operate poorly. But on average, a correctly twisted sail will operate better than an over-twisted or under-twisted sail. This all depends on the conditions ofcourse, if there are no waves, more of the sail can be in the best position more of the time.

The first principle to get straight is that the apparent wind oscillates/rotates across the sail as the boat moves through waves. A cross section of a sail works best (produces best thrust) at one angle of attack. Twisted sails have many angles of attack to what is referred to as the steady wind direction. All of these sections up and down the sail at sometime during the oscillation of the apparent wind, due to pitching, will be at their most efficient angle of attack to produce thrust. This means that the centre of thrust is actually moving up and down the sail with each pitch. Over time, this thrust will add up to be more than is produced buy a sail that is setup with too much or too little twist since both these scenarios have a section of sail that will rarely operate at its most efficient angle of attack.

This might explain why it is a common indication of a correctly twisted main that the top leech telltale should be flowing about 50% of the time. The top section of sail is only operating at its best angle of attack to produce thrust about <50% of the time (telltales will stream slightly either side of best angle of attack though). While the top section is operating poorly, the other sections of sail are operating efficiently. Imagine the apparent wind angle as it moves up and down your sail. It will tend to slowly move forward as you go down the sail and will tend to move aft as you go up the sail.

I might be a nerd and crunch some numbers later to see how much the apparent wind will rotate at the head of a pitching sail. That will give an indication of whether or not my theory is correct.

How this relates to square head mains may be that the sail area is distributed more evenly up and down the sail so the instantaneous thrust is pretty much the same during the tiny oscillations.

Be careful with my terminology, I have used rotate, move and oscillate interchangeably with reference to the apparent wind angle throughout the post depending on the scenario I'm trying to explain.

Excuse my long sentences, I wanted to get it out quickly before I forgot it.

Nick.

Can you actually get a degree in sail design? I know it's a craft where you can be an apprentice and do a masters test when done as apprentice. But can you go on and do a degree on saildesign?

As for wind shear, it depends on what kind of wind you have, stable or unstable. My literature suggest it can be quite pronounced (25deg) even in the height-range of catamaran masts (I have never experienced it so pronounced). It can also be as small as 2degrees at your masttop. (Ref: David Houghton and Frank Bethewaite). What you are thinking about is probably how friction between wind and earts surface, and earths rotation (coreolis effect) wil influence the wind. Short version is that becouse of friction between the wind and the surface, and becouse the earth rotate wind further up will have a different direction than closer to the surface. As earth rotates in the same direction all the time, you will need less twist to compensate on one tack than the other.
My experience is that twist is beneficial in some conditions, but should be avoided in others. When overpowered (as Gary looks to be in the picture), twist is good to shed power and eliminate form drag. Twist is also beneficial when powering trough waves or accelerating. In flat water, looking for power, I feel faster with less twist. This will increase power (again, depending on wind shear), but also increase form drag from the sail.
Sloop rigs need to twist their mainsail to compensate for the jibs influence on the wind. On our Tornado main we have used 8 degrees of twist, and I think it's a bit too much (might be a problem with cloth stretch and luff curve). I have also heard that 11degrees of twist are designed into Tornado mains. For a uni rig, I would expect less twist designed into the sail. But how it's trimmed on the water is what decides how fast it is (unless it is out of the ballpark).

When trimming windsurfer sails, it's critical in my experience to have the correct mast for the sail. I trim downhaul until the leech just goes slack when looking for power with it. In stronger winds, I put on more downhaul to keep the sail manageable. With the wrong mast, your leech will go slack to early, or overpower you completely
The main 'brakes' you can put on when sailing cats are form drag from the sails. If you go out in 0-1m/s winds, wind shear will probably be pronounced , so you need twist to power up the top and keep the telltales flying. You have probably also heard that in weak winds you need deep sails to make the boat go. So, how do you induce twist while keeping the sails full? You let out on the mainsheet. That way you will have a full sail and decent twist. If you have tried this, you know that you will not go well to windward and be slow. If you crank on the downhaul and sheet in (still fly the leech telltales 50% of the time) to flatten the main, top will twist off while the lower part of the leech still stands. What you really have done, is remove a large part of your sails form drag as the wind dont have to move over that deep curvature (and probably detach from the surface underways) but instead follow the much more efficient shallow curvature. If the wind increases, you can trim your sail deeper with less twist as the increased power generated by the sail is larger then the added form drag.





Sorry for the rambling.. I just find this stuff very interesting.

Just better clear something up about wind angles. The true wind is not changing direction significantly the higher you get up your mast. The true wind speed is however changing significantly, as you said, because of wind shear/the boundary layer. In other words the wind closer to the water surface is affected by friction and slowed down compared with the wind up higher.

Since a boat always moves at an angle to the true wind an apparent wind is created. Apparent wind is what you feel across your face while sailing. The apparent wind angle changes significantly as you move higher because the wind speed higher is faster. A thing called vector addition lets you calculate the apparent wind speed and direction very simply as indicated here:

Apparent Wind Calculator and Diagrams

The guys at the twisted flow wind tunnel are the gurus when it comes to apparent wind and required twist. There is a diagram that perfectly shows what is happening to the apparent wind at this link:
Twisted Flow Wind Tunnel - Auckland

Anyway, enough from me.

Nick.

Hi all,

have been flat out with sailing and working away alot. Interesting to catch up with the posts. So many things to comment on.

Firstly Altered picture, I was sheeted hard at the time, basicaly as much as I can pull on with 6 to 1 from trapeze. Twist is all from downhaul or cunningham, Glenn advised me I was not using enough, so I upped to 12 to 1 and can now give it heaps. Basicaly I sheet in hard then adjust downhaul so that I am pointing at the hieght I want and travelling at the speed I want. The twist in this photo gives better VMG than when I was sailing with less twist causing me to point higher. When I got this sail I underestimated how much and how early I needed to start downhauling. I am now back to being happy with my upwind speed in stronger breezes, although I do still need to check it against some faster cats.

I am not sure about this idea that Fat head sails are easier to sail with in strong winds. I have heard this ever since I started sailing cats but from my experiences on large Multis and Altered, Fatheads give you a higher centre of effort making them power up earlier, but not easier to sail. You have to be more careful with leech tension off the wind as the head will drive the bows under if oversheeted, also overpowering earlier just makes it harder work. From my experience there is nothing easier to handle than a standard Mossie sail in high winds, it twists and depowers readily and it's low centre of effort takes more wind to over power.
Don't get me wrong I love my big fat head (easy boys) I wouldn't consider sailing with anything else, as it gives me speed in 5-10 kts. that is not possible with a pinhead. But it and others I have used are harder to handle when it is windy.

As for speed of respective cats, I now recite to myself as I get chased by those Mossies, IT'S EASY TO SAIL A FAST BOAT SLOW. From what I have seen around regattas the faster it is, the easier to sail slow as evidenced by Tornado's being beaten by Mossies. I used to think that Taipans especialy cat rigged where not much faster than Mossies having beaten fleets of up to 13 to windward marks many times on my Mossie. But recently I have come up against the Aust cat rig Taipan champs on Altered and I can tell you in 20 kts. they are very fast beating most of the A class fleet. Sounds familiar doesn't it.

Now for Mossie cat rig versus sloop rig. Being one of those guy's that delight in cross referencing useless info. I looked at times from recent Mossie titles at Loch Sport comparing front of cat rig fleet with sloop rig times, as expected the cat rigs where faster in the light winds but to my surprise they where also faster in the strongest winds gusting 25kts., in fact there was only one race at the Nats that sloops beat cats. In one race in about 15 kts. the first 5 cats beat the first sloop. Before anybody goes making to big an assumption, I think it should be said that the flat water and gusty winds helped the cats here as it was hardly the conditions to get a sloop in the groove upwind something I know they like to do from experience.

Regards Gary.

Sorry fellow Mozzie people but I'm a bit confused.
Why do all the skippers who own mozzies and are discussing all the modifications to a very well designed cat want to try to change it ? This happened about 15 years ago and the class numbers dwindled into the doldrums. (when the Tiapan was born)It is now showing a big resurgance again because in my opinion the mozzie (a tried and tested to be a excellent allrounder at a respectable price) it's strict one design. If you wish to sail in something more powerfull, exotic, faster or whatever why not buy a cat that is already designed to what you want. More than likely most of the skippers in the mozzie class enjoy the cat for what it is because of it's affordability and performance. Most can't afford all the changes you guys would like to implement.(fathead mains, spinnackers, long masts etc.) Perhaps you should all join an unrestricted class see if you can keep up with finances then.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against development of the sport of sailing but there are classes where this can happen at your wish. Please leave the Mozzie alone in it's strict one design because that is why the class is as strong today as it was 30 years ago.
Everyone on a well prepared boat has got a chance of a win, not necesarilly the skipper with the most resources to cover his inability to sail fast with the same equipment as everyone else.
Regards,
Switch[color:"red"] [/color]

Hi Switch

You seem to have picked up on the tail end of discussions and activity that have been going on for many years.

The old "15 years ago the class changed the rules and the numbers crashed" line has been regularly wheeled out, mostly by people not involved in the class. This is just one of those rumours that if you say it often enough people start to believe it must be true. The facts are that the Mosquito rules were never changed 15 years ago. There was a lot of talk at the time and people threatened to leave the class if the rules were changed.

Well the rules weren't changed and they left the class anyway, many to sail Taipans - which were after all designed by Mozzie sailors to replace the Mozzie.

Mosquitos now are the same as they were in 1967 except that, like all one-designs, the boat has been refined within the tolerances to get the best performance. They still look the same but the subtle hull shape differences and the way the modern boats are rigged makes them a much more efficient boat.

Currently there are NO proposals around to change the class.

Back in 2000 some work was begun to try out a taller square-top rig. This looked nice but the cons outweighed the pros and most people in the class lost interest.

The spinnaker has been in use since 2002. We don't have to talk about adding a spinnaker because it has already been done, without any need to change the basic Mosquito class. About half the active Mosquitos in VIC use spinnakers outside of titles - and with good reason - the performance is awesome.

This thread is now only about a boat in Queensland that is trying out a fat-head mainsail. That's just Nick's experiment, not the class changing it's rules. It's good that people try these things out though.

As far as I'm concerned the Mosquito fills a niche in the range of off-the-beach cats that are available, because it manages to combine a very refined, lightweight hull design with a low-aspect (these days) rig that is easy to handle but still very efficient, and all for a low price. In addition to this I like racing Mozzies because we seem to have the best social group of any class I see at open events and the competition on the course is fierce (one bad tack is enough to cost you a race).

The Mosquito has a lot going for it right now. Bad luck for those that don't sail one


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New:

Aye Tim.
As I indicated in the previous mail I am not adverse to the development of sailing experiments in a unrestricted class but again the rumours of class regulation changes (even if it only be experimental and viewed in discussion group forums )_is detrimental to prospective members to one design craft. I didn't join the discussion to create an unrest in the forum group but just to voice my opinion. Now all that is said My background is from mono hull dinghies, sharpie and most recently Fireball. The Sharpie fleet all started experimenting with bigger kites and rigs and eventually the regulations changed and the class is now falling into minimal numbers with only the guys with all the ready resources ($$$$) being able to afford a very rolls royce type dinghy. (your everyday racer cannot afford it anymore). The Fireball is very strict in the regulations as well but experiments and regulation changes to allow a larger spinnacker along with the PRO choice of Olympic or Trapizoidal courses has now made it that you must have both kites in your gear selection.(another $1,000 bit of gear you must have to be competive). I have now rejoined the ranks of mozzies after leaving them back in 1992. My club has now gone to Mozzies in considerable numbers,(arguably the biggest fleet in Sth. Aust.) The attraction of Strict one design and fleet numbers being the draw card. This is why I have rejoined the class and maybe a better explanation for my concerns about experimental performance enhancers because in my experience over my last couple of classes and years things tend to happen without many people knowing. Please don,t allow a very fine piece of sporting design fall to the grips of the haves.
Regards,
Switch.

Hi Switch

We could start a new thread on the decline in sailing numbers generally. That is a whole huge topic in itself and everyone has opinions on what happened, who to blame and what to do about it. That would be a good one.

We are fortunate at the moment that Mosquitos are one of the few classes which are growing rather than shrinking, and I agree that there's no need to be proposing big changes to the Mosquito right now. It's a great boat at a great price and we're all having a great time racing them (especially those of us with spinnakers!).

I don't think we need to discourage the discussions that go on on these forums though. Before we had the forum experiments went ahead all over the place and no-one heard about them except usually by rumour. On the forum here we can talk ideas over and sometimes they won't get past that stage, and sometimes the idea may sound so foolproof and wonderful that someone will try it. And then usually we get to hear the results. Not all ideas involve changing the class - we can do a lot within our rules. I think this is all healthy and it's a good thing to have an active, thinking membership.

Just don't mention "15 years ago the rules changed ...etc". It's like a red rag to a bull!

Tim,

Well done. Your 2 recent responses hit the nail on the head.

The popularity of the Mozzie comes down to the cost of purchase and the one design philosophy given that there are a set of tolerance bands that are used. The class rules also allow some freedom for playing with rudder and centreboard designs and boom size. Even old Mozzies can still be competitive with a few minor modifications to deck layout, a new sail and some tuning of foils!

The number of rig options also has provided the class with considerable growth and has made other cat owners look at the Mozzie with some envy; having a Mozzie with spinnaker keeping pace with a F18 must turn heads. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Regards,

Peter

Aye Tim and Peter.
The red rag to a bull statement seems to have the hand brake on. Perhaps seeing as the last couple of posts on the subject of fat head sails and spinnackers on a fine piece of cat design has touched more than a few people with guilt who think the same as I.(no response for about a fortnight) Restricted classes have their place in the world and unrestricted classes have their place as well. It's a shame when some individuals in the world seem to try and influence others by constant badgering until they achieve what they set out for. Regardless of the cost to others and their thoughts. I'm sorry the world is not full of sheep and (if it is) this can only be detrimental to the success of something that is a success already. As only a newcomer to the class again after exiting it 15 years ago the talk of all the great ideas will only shut the door to many potential competitors again. I don't think I would be alone in this thought. I would have hoped that a few more people would have joined the forum discussion, but maybe I am wrong in my point of veiw??
Please don't take this response as aggressive but topical and wonder if anyone else out there cares to respond in favour of my opinion?
Regards,
Switch.

Agree entirely with switches comments, particularly regarding the constant badgering, endlessly repeating the same argument with out addressing legitmate responses.
After breaking several past Mosquitos and recently cracking several front beams while sailing Mk1 I have doubts about doubling the downwind sail area when the structure appears to be marginal already for the particular area I sail in.
I'm not the only one who cracks beams locally, you would be surprised by the number of Mosquitos out there with cracked beams.
Darryn
1704

Ok I'll put my 2 cents in.

The question to be asked is why do we always need to change something that is going ok ?. Do you always have to keep up with the Jones's ?.

As an example look at the Moth class. In the 70's to 80's they were everywhere and they were producing champions galore, in a good class which allowed a fair amount of design variation. The designers went crazy with pencil thin skiffs, the scows became obsolete, the skiffs were harder to sail, numbers plumeted. Innovation or progress as some call it has seen a class be almost destroyed.

I can see the reason behind the MK 1 Mossies to add a spinnaker, but talk it through with everyone to get a good cross section of views. Will the fathead sail really add anything to the class?.

Change for athetics or to keep up with the Jones's is not a very good basis for change.

Mossie's are Mossie's, not Tornadoes or Taipans.

That's a curious story you have about the beams Darryn. It just doesn't match with what I've seen. My boat is nearly 10 years old, has been raced hard all it's life, as a sloop for the first 5 or 6 years, then with a spinnaker for the last 4 years, one of those as a sloop with spinnaker. The old beams are still going fine!

Oh yes, and the edges are rounded!

My previous boat broke a front beam, but that was very badly corroded (and did not have rounded corners). Where it broke it was eaten right through, so it had to break.

Are the SA beams coming from a different source to the Victorian ones? I'm amazed you are breaking new ones.

Hell, Bob Wilson even takes the centre beam off his boat and it still hangs together !!!!!!!

Not sure what you mean about "badgering". I'm not aware there's any moves afoot to change anything at all right now. There's a big difference between talking about stuff and actually putting in a rule change proposal (which, by the way, any member can do).

I like this thread. It's so long now it's hard to remember where it all started. It was Gordon asking 8 months ago if anyone thought we should bring out the big head mainsail change proposal again. The responses seemed to indicate no.

We have nine rule change proposals up for the next AGM in January 2007. Eight of those are to fix up mistakes, inconsistencies, obsolescences, and contradictions in the wording of the rules - no actual changes to the boat. The other proposal is to add an appendix which sets out measurement rules for the spinnaker, if one is used.

You can't stop people putting a spinnaker on their Mosquito, so it is probably best to have some guidelines so at least they are all a similar setup. The Taipans tried to stop their members using spinnakers and look what happened to them.

Just because Mozzie sailors like to talk "what if...", doesn't mean the boat is going to change. I don't understand why people feel the class is so threatened by just talk. Do we have to employ a class censor to stand around the camp fire at regattas and stop any conversations straying dangerously toward "changes"? Do we need a moderator to delete all posts on this forum that suggest changes? Of course not, it's just talk, and talk is healthy. If someone suggests something that others disagree with then they can get on here and disagree. Until a few months ago these kind of discussions were held in private. Now the whole class can get involved. This is great!

The "red rag to a bull" reference is just regarding that comment - "15 years ago ...". The rules didn't change, the class almost died for other reasons, and many of those who fought hard to stop the class changing left anyway (so what did they achieve?). Most often I've heard the "15 years ago ..." line used by people from other classes who want to put down the Mosquito. That's why it bothers me so much.

Now we have people from other classes who feel threatened by the Mosquito because they have seen how it performs with the spinnaker, and obviously they will argue that the Mosquito shouldn't allow spinnakers, for their own reasons.

The people who really believed in the Mosquito continued to sail them through the 90s and kept the class alive, so we can enjoy it now. Thanks to them.

I have seen an awful lot of Mossies here in SA over the last 35 plus years (even owned a couple), and I have seen a small number of "fractured" beams BUT, without exception the failure has always been the result of either poor engineered mounting of the beam to the hull (a lot of this arose from "home build" boats and/or bad advice), bad "electrolysis" corrosion (particularly around mounting fixtures), and the most common was from sailing with the dolphin striker too loose allowing excessive, continuous flexing of the front beam. All of these “problems can, and in most cases are, simply addressed.
There used to be a problem very early with the hulls, particularly on sloop rigged cats, when the hulls could literally break off inwards at the front beam due to insufficient structure internally to counter the “inward” rig loads, and as the bow broke occasionally the resulting “rescue” could bend/break the front beam.
I have also seen boats that have been sailing continuously for over thirty years with their original beams and still with no hint of “failure”.
I also remember extremely heated arguments in the seventies about whether the class should “allow” hulls to be made out of PLASTIC (fibreglass). The anti argument being that it would totally DECIMATE THE CLASS, and what self respecting cat sailor would want to sail a “Tupperware” boat when he could enjoy a beautiful crafted timber traditionally built craft? The same argument arose as to whether to allow fibreglass rudders instead of timber, for all the same reasons, none of these changes (and a few others) have ever “hurt” the class, some would say that the opposite is the case, but it always seems to be the case in any “association” that as soon as ANY change/improvement is even voiced, there will very vocal detractors who resist any change at any cost. They used to hide behind such adages as “Tradition”, “destruction of the class”, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, etc, and would never be prepared to look at any change, even if it was “good for the class” and/or it was necessary to ensure the actual “suvival” of the class, If the “no change” advocates had always won their case we would all still be sailing on “square riggers” or to take it back to the earliest analogy, we would be racing astride a solid log of timber holding up animal skins or palm leaves to catch the wind. “Tradition” is fine in its place, but a certain amount of pragmatism is needed to “stay the same” yet still keep up with the changing world around those “Traditions”.

The red rag to the bull. The main problem with this 'healthy' debating is, whenever someone posts to the 'cons' of a subject, in this case the Fat Head Main, we are quickly discouraged from contributing further, by being asked to not bring up certain aspects of the debate, i.e the 15 years ago the proposed changes nearly killed of the class. This is our opinion, whether it be supported by others or not, so if people want others to take part in these debates (because at the end of the day, it is what they are) our view should be accepted, not told that we are uninformed, or must be generally people from outside the class, and I can assure you that is not always the case. I'm not trying ruffle feathers here, I still follow the class with a lot of interest, whether I actively sail my mosquito or not.

Thank You

Matt Harper
Mosquito 741
Taipan AUS 329

The first beam went from corrosion also, the second lasted 7 months and went when I fell off a wave. The cause is an unbraced area of beam between the bolt securing the stainless strap to the beam and the inboard bolt securing the hull to the beam working. The solution is to transfer the stress to the inboard bolt which I have done recently and so far seems to do the job however I'm going to build a new beam incorperating the changes during the build for a even better fix. Until I've proven my fix I wont fit a spinnaker for obvious reasons.
Round corners are good to help prevent cracks. Most sailors are surprised when I point out that their beams are cracked, its particulary prevalent in Boyer boats as they must have built their beams off a jig.
I've noted two different size beams fitted to Mosquitos both of which fit in the tolerance in the building instructions, the smaller size beams which are fitted to the new Cobden built boats are tougher then the larger beams contrary to common sense. The Temper and corner thickness is the issue and the smaller beam is superior on both counts.
I find cracks in Aluminium for a living so maybe I look a bit harder then most.
Only three or four forum users can be accused of badgering, (certainly no Aussie Mosquito sailors who I find to be open and honest about their boats) their endless squaretop main/fit a spinnaker chant along with some of the falsehoods they perpetually bring up such as "its easier to gybe downwind in 25knots with a spinnaker then without" and other classics are amusing to me but newbies to the class (F16 also) actually believe some of that rubbish and get disenchanted pretty fast when it doesn't work for them.
My 2 cents,
Darryn
1704

I've read the comments with interest and have really held back the need to reply. Yes, I think more often then not accused of being a class badgerers as mentioned by Darryn and Switch. I'm also a mechanical engineer and oen of the few people who actually ran alot of math on these boats.

I feel very compelled to inform the "tradionalists" that they are verifiably wrong on many points.

The first is simple. The spinnaker doesn't put nearly enough stress and on the platform to break it. At this time the upwind loads are still the highest by far. So adding a spi will NOT make the craft more sensitive to breakage then it already was. Additionally the cracks on the mossie beams sound like either fatigue cracks or low tension ruptures, neither of which much influenced by changes in stresses. The causes for these are to be found in inadiquate design or fitting of the beams. The most simple solution to badly build boats is to glue a strip of aluminium on the concerned area;s (on the inside) to locally beaf it up. Sorry mates, THAT is just the truth and I'm not going to sugarcoat it because your GUTT feels otherwise.

Then we got another beauty.



Obviously YOU never sailed with a spinnaker in those conditions. Yes it does take some additional skills at first but afterward you'll never go down WITHOUT a spinnaker ever again in these conditions. Only the bulk of F18 sailors and other spi classes support the claim that it is really easier to go downwind and gybe with a spi in these conditions then without. Reason, the boat is ALOT less dive happy. Hell, a score of us are doing this SINGLEHANDEDLY. When you fit a large squaretop head on your mainsail the spinnaker becomes even mandatory as the large head does push the bows in more when broad reaching without a spi.

I appears more like it is YOU who is perpetuating the falsehoods. "15 years ago rule changes", "spinnaker breaks boats", "better downwind handling is boogus"


Then we get a switch argument from the Traditionalists :




May be it is just me but I've heard alot more "shut-up" and "don't change anything" comments from the traditionalists then the from the guys considering changes. It is they THEY who are quickly discouraging others not the modifier. And it is you who are clearly so threatened by even the discussion of possible changes without them ever reaching proposal status. You are accussing the other side of what you yourself are doing all the time. And I know because I received my fair share of those comments, a good portion even rather aggressively.


But I safe the best for last. The "(any) change is destroying the class" argument

My appologies for Gary, Tim and the other healthy debaters here but I'm afraid I need to spell something out to these traditionalists. The mosquito class WAS alot more dead before the all the talk of changes and spinnakers then it was after. This dispite the fact that it DID NOT change anything in, oohh, the last 15 to 25 years ? Secondly the class is not a succes by any standard today. The South African sailors have switched to class spinnakers and so you will not count them as Mossie sailors anymore. That leaves a handful of old school mossie sailors in Victoria and South Australian. Absolutely no mossie made it to other parts of the world. If this is what traditionalists call succes then what do you guys call the development classes like the A's, F18's. F16's and even modified mossie designs like the Taipans ?

It seem pretty obvious that "not changing anything" could not prevent decimating the fleet numbers the way it is claimed. Hell, it appears even that the modifications was actually the one thing that turned this bad streak around.


But the best example I ever encountere was this. The tornado class voted down, with a large manjority, all the changes proposed back in 2000. Booth and Bundock when ahead as planned anyway and 18 months later 90 % of the class had upgraded and the tornado fleets started attracting more and more boats on the line. Somewhere in those 18 months the large majority of "no-voters" changed their minds and went back on their most fundamental believes and upgraded anyway. Most remarkably was that never again a complaint was heard from any significant group of Tornado sailors.

I think this shows clearly how dependable traditionalists are. They sure as hell won't float a class, no matter how passionate their arguments. And maybe my next comment is a bit harsh but it is sadly the truth. I say forget about these sailors, for their value in floating a class is indeed very little and in the end THEY will follow the lead in the class anyway no matter how much against it they are.

Base your decisions on what furthers the class among the other classes and right now that means changes. Moderning the boat without getting overboard. Make sure you keep the class leaders and really active sailors on board (by keeping the class interesting) and make the mods slow enough so the rest can follow.

I'm sure this post will cope its fair share of "You European lake sailors now nothing of Australian scene" and "you're not even a Mossie sailor", not to forget "Keep your dirty paws of our succesful one-design class". Of course I've never been a lake sailor and I've been right where locals were wrong. I predicted the demise of the Taipan 5.7 and now I predict the demise of the Taipan 4.9 design. It takes no genius to predict the demise of the Mossie if it doesn't "go with the times" a bit. Hell 80 % of the demise has already been completed in the last 15 years.

Now the mossie design deserves alot better as evidenced by the recent results of the spinnaker equipped mossies. For the first time in its 30 years history the Mosquito catamaran is actually a known name OUTSIDE of Australia and South Africa. THAT is growth. Maybe if you guys play your card right you may even start new fleets in Europe, USA and other parts of the world, something the old classic setup never was able to do.

Take another look at the Taipans vs F16 conflict. Is there any doubt which will survive and outlast the other ? Right now there are NO Taipan 4.9 OD's sailing outside of Australia. And right now there are about 100-150 Taipan alike boats more in the world then 5 years ago. THAT is class growth, the F16 concept pretty much floated the Taipan sales for the last years.

Yes we did loose some really hard core traditionalist but we won back over 100 new sailors to the class. I say that that is a trade-off I don't need to think about hard and long and neither should the mossie sailors.

Wouter

Just to get the Tornado part of this clear. The Tornado class had been looking at spis and double trapezes a long time before the changes in 2000. Booth, Derecksen and others promoted the Tornado Sport (Digression: look who is running the Volvo Extreme 40 class, TS management = TornadoSport management, and check where the URL http://www.tornadosport.com takes you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
However, it was not Booth and others who made the Tornado class go for the new setup. The ones responsible for that was ISAF who decided that for the 2004 olympics the open multihull would be the Tornado with double trapezes and spi. After that, it made no sense for the class to keep on to the old setup. So the "no-voters" was more or less overruled by ISAF. I dont think the "lake sailors" changed their minds, and there are still many T's who sail with the classic rig becouse they dont want the spi and double trapeze (but these boats dont compete much in class events anymore).
The switch to the new sailplan did increase fleets in England and other places as far as I know. But the Tornado class lost some participants, which was OK if they sold their boats to sailors who wanted to upgrade the platform to the new sailplan. If they keept their boats and continued sailing with the old configuration, they was pretty much lost for the class/class racing. I guess this is the core of the issues with the Mozzies also, how many sailors will be lost from class racing and will new ones enter the class..



If we look away from the "significant group" part which is too open an statement, there has been lots of noise. But the carbon mast controversy overshadows that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
In my opinion, putting the new sailplan on the Tornado was a good move. It made the boat more fun to sail, especially in low wind conditions, and the crew dont have to wear a diving mask with snorkel anymore when going downwind. Bad side is that all loads increased, some needed new aft beams, and some vintages of hulls showed their age..
I got to admit that I also prefer to go downwind with the spi up, but I have a crew to handle the spi..


Discussing advantages and drawbacks to changes in the open surely must be a good thing.
I dont know if it will be a smart move to change the Australian Mozzies, but times are changing and the South Africans seem pretty pleased with both their setups and racing.

The point is that a large majority voted down the changes and vowed their continued support for the classic setup only to prove that they were totally incapable of keeping the classic Tornado alive as a class, not even for 18 months.

Let me repeat this "a LARGE majority" ... "vowed continued support for classic design" ... "couldn't keep the classic design active as a class" ... "not even for 18 months"


I'm sorry to be so confrontational on this issue, BUT there is a very valuable point to be learned here.

Such majorities don't mean a thing, because when the point comes to show their strength and resolve by actually putting bodies on the water and running an organisation like a catamaran class; they are nowhere to be found. And I think we all agree that those two points are actually the only ones that matter. Ergo any threads "to leave the class" by such a majority are meaningless. They will leave the class anyway when the group of truly active members have moved on.

Hence my point, keep the active members on boards not matter what. Introduce changes if that is what keeps them on board and ignore the conservative "majority" if you have too. From my perspective it looks like the adding of the spi to the mossie is actually doing that. And therefor it is a wise path to persue. It certain did so in South Africa, if I'm not mistaken, and it is back on the growth path as a result.


No I don't sail a mossie and I have never even seen one in the flesh. I do sail a modified Taipan (to F16) so I don't really care what direction the Mossie class chooses. I'm just writing down my experience in building up and growing a catamaran class in todays market; especially in competitive markets like Europe. I say learn from it, but you should also feel totally free to ignore anything I wrote.

Ohh, before I forget. The Taipan 4.9 class decided to go conservative and hence the F16 class split off. (just like the Taipan class split of the mosquito class back then). Look at the (international)standing of the Taipans to seen what you can expect when choosing this route.

Wouter

No, a vote saying "no" to proposed changes is not the same as a vow of allegiance on your honor and the flag to keeping the current rules indefinately. It is simply a "no" to the proposal. Put the right spin on the matter and re-run the ballot next year, outcome might be different. The Tornado might have sailed with the classic rig today if not ISAF had defaulted the question.

Personally, I agree with the rest you wrote. Finding the right persons, and keeping them in the class, is the trick.

Hi there has been 2 mozzies that have tried this one in VIC a mk1 mozzie that they added 1 metre to the existing mast section put square top mainsail and off they went with no breakages to my knowledge. Then they tried a mk2 in SA same mast changes first mast snapped in half second mast bent spredder snapped mast third mast after lots of talk and professinal built mast bent spedder and broke mast. I think just adding new sail mite look good but is the rest of the boat really up to it I think some has to try and see what happens if proven results show it's better the maybe it should be put to a vote but from what i have seen leaving it alone at the momement would be a good idea. PS we have 10+ regestered mozzies at our club and they are getting bigger so that says a lot for the class also greg goodall made sails for above mk1 and mk2 thanks

Like a gentleman, by the name of David, stated at the national titles. "In Australia we should be looking at developing the Mosquito into a youth training boat for the Tornado Class." I liked this idea. How great would it be to have future olympic champions coming through the Mosquito Class, imagine the competition. Maybe we should scedule to attend some regattas with the Tornados. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thus, the spinnaker idea is great, we sail with two trapeze anyway, the hull shape is similar. Maybe there is merit in looking to modify the rig in future to a smaller version of the Tornado's thereby making it a similar handling boat.

Just before the trigger is squeezed. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would like to point out, I would like a spinnaker, new main and new jib but cannot afford them at the moment either. From my experiences all boats are a work in progress and there is always something to maintain, alter, try or buy. Most equipment based sports have the problems of upgrading and new technology requiring the spending of more $. The best thing that can be done is to ensure that any upgrades made are of benifit to the class and not just change for change sake. This is where the try (and talk) before everyone buys comes in.

Ok, Fire at will.

Consider yourself ignored,

Darryn
Mosquito
1704

Hi Darryn

I am laughing my head off, I've been telling myself all day not to write those exact words.
I second Darryns comment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Most equipment based sports have the problems of upgrading and new technology requiring the spending of more $. The best thing that can be done is to ensure that any upgrades made are of benifit to the class and not just change for change sake. This is where the try (and talk) before everyone buys comes in."

Ok, Ive read ALL the posts, just an idea here : Colmc raised a valid point : Upgrade costs vs normal wear and tear/usage costs. You will gladly order a new Mozzie mainsail (class legal) when your old one is clearly no longer capable of producing results. An often-sailed boat will have to change mainsails more often, so the top competitors (ie those who sail often, rule no. 1 of being close to the top) will buy new sails more often than those who sail less often.(ie back or middle of fleet).
Now, if a squaretop mainsail cost 10% more than a standard main, and is proven to produce more speed, power and control in a wide range of conditions, surely it would be a GOOD thing for the CLASS (not necessarily all the class MEMBERS). It could also(no promises here) promote the class more, attracting sailors who would otherwise go elsewhere for more performance.
And the beauty of it all, is that you`d buy one when your old dacron main is screwed anyway, at only 10% more (remember?) than your new one-design main. Then, when everyone has a squaretop main, it BECOMES the new one-design sail, at NO ADDITIONAL COST (ok sorry, 10% more...)
So IF the class changed to a squaretop main, a natural progression would take place. The SA (as in Africa) Mozzie class didn`t adopt the spinnaker immediately - we never even proposed it as a rule change - until 5 boats were sailing with spinnakers and making the rest of the class members green with envy, for at least a season.
We tested and tried it in all conditions, tried to break it, the boat and the crew, until it was a PROVEN idea. Then we put it to the vote and got 100% positive response, because everyone could SEE that it made the boat faster and more fun to sail, with NO ADDITIONAL BREAKAGES.
That`s what has to happen with squaretop ideas - someone has to try them out, and after a season or so once it has been PROVEN a success or a failure, can we sit back and make an objective decision as to whether it works or not. If it does, the adventurous sailors will go with it whether it`s class legal or not. If it doesn`t work, well then at least it was tried. If it works, the class can vote on it, and the outcome will be whatever it may be. Experiments are good for the class, brave folks are prepared to try new ideas at their own expense, and the best ideas that WORK can be adopted to keep the class at or at least close to the sharp edge of catamaran design.
I love the boat for what it is, and I`m not kidding myself that it can be a full F16. But there is NOTHING more satisfying than rounding the A-mark 50m ahead of a Hoboe Tiger (sp. mistake intended), and reaching the C-mark with the same margin advantage, and it happens. The only thing better is when the skipper of the Tiger (who in this case is my ex-skipper) approaches you after the race and says "man, I just couldn`t catch you downwind !"
Makes me want to own a Mozzie.
And that`s how to get other people to want to own a Mozzie.

Please accept my "badgering" for what it is - an unbounded enthusiasm for a beautiful "classic" design boat, that with subtle upgrades with moderate costs, can still be a great performer 40 years after it left the drawing board.

Ever since we put the first F14 in the water we have sailed against “standard” Mossies at regatta and club level, and they have never been at all competitive with us, then we recently travelled to Victoria to a “long weekend” regatta and sailed against three cat rigged Mossies WITH spinnakers. The performance of these spinnaker Mossie’s compared to the ones without a kite was completely “chalk and cheese”. The spinnaker improved the overall performance of the Mossies out of all recognition and for the very moderate cost of adding the kite and hardware for this conversion I find any arguments against “going that way” very petty.

I'm glad someone brought up the replacement of sails argument again. In 2-3 years of regular sailing, chances are that your mainsail will be shot and can be conveniently upgraded to whichever sail plan the class chooses. The "increased cost" argument against a mainsail upgrade is mute.

I think it's time to go sailing, I'm sure it'll be more fun than arguing here.

Those that don't get easily offended might like to google the old adage about "arguing on the internet".

(Edited to stick to one clear point in this post)