The media IS the Democraptic party!

Did you hear the news today?

Of course not- the mainstream media IS the democraptic party, and wont publish/discuss it.

The WSJ DID however.

** Remember when the FBI director went on Natl TV, and made the case like he WAS going to prosecute Billary, and then near the very of the speech- said yea, it was wrong, it was criminal, but we're not prosecuting?

Well guess what? Read the WSJ article!
He was BOUGHT OFF - BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ironhead, et. al.- I"m voting for the lesser of two evils (Trump is not evil), and the choice is clear to me, how could it not be to anyone else? And if it's not, the yare NOT using pure logic.

This isn't hearsay, these are facts. So many of them- facts- on how corrupt and criminal The Billary machine is. Pull your heads out, pull your heads out
That anyone other than the VERY corrupt, or the VERY uninformed, would vote for this excuse for a shemale.

It's about AMERICA!!

And BTW- I do currently vote for democraps with go fiscal values, who are not corrupt.
Case in point- our current County Sheriff, and the current current County executive, both Democraps, and I"ve voted for them both in two elections

Well, use your logic Todd.

Trump is a pathalogical psychopath with a very simple body-language.
Watch his eyes shutting tight when he is obviously lying.

Here on the other side of the ocean it is evident to all of us!

On other forums too, I hear this kind of crap from people who are not in the USA, and won't even be voting. Nice to see your media is also libtard too.
OH wait, you can still vote democratic if you're not legal to do so, millions of others are!
Hillary is a criminal, thought bought off the FBI director- and you're more worried about Trump squinting?
I used to like you

I'm concerned not only about how is it, that out of all the possibilities in the US, these are the two choices we now have. The problems include the presidency we are voting for. It also includes the congress, and the electorate that is uninformed or keeps voting them in, not voting at all or voting for "free stuff" that always has a price somewhere. Our national debt is out of control, our money has only to “good faith of the US” to back it. The future should be at least as interesting as the past. I hope we can learn from history and make better choices personally, locally and nationally. If not we are doomed to go down the same path and hope in vain for a different result. Europe, the Middle East, China is changing, the world is changing and we are repeating problems that are well documented in history. Hang on, the best and worst is still ahead.

I know you used to like me. Thank you.

I like you too and still do. But that's exactly the reason to speek out freely about my observations.
I know you are a hard-boiled Republican, like many other members on this board. And that's completely fine with me.

Never fight over politics and religion with people you like, is a wise adagium. But don't be silent!

My critics concerns the man and not the party which he stands for.
And yes, because America belongs to the powerfull states of the world, I have fears when you choose a lunatic as president.

Perhaps I misread your post (as is typical for me)?

Because someone doesn't drink the same kool-aide as you do, they are no longer your friend? Seems a little harsh....

I drink plenty of kool-aide myself, but I'd rather debate a particular idea rather than a person... Maybe I'm senile, but I find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't share my particular ideology will NEVER have a good idea, be able to contribute to society, or will forever be designated as sub-human...

Regardless of your particular position, I am glad that you are exercising your right to vote. In this election I believe every vote is needed. Not just for the top of the ticket. I think the down-ballot votes are possibly even more important.

I am supervising a polling location, and I see the layers of security to protect votes. At least in my state, it would appear that while voting irregularities may indeed occur, it would take a monumental effort to "rig" the vote. Our state does use paper ballots as a backup to the electronic vote(s) and require photo/signature ID. In addition, each political party will have designated monitors at each polling location who can contest voters/ballots. Having this sort of coordinated activity to disrupt an entire state's vote go undetected seems very unlikely.

I cannot speak for other states and how they operate their voting system. Most of this was the result of the train-wreck that was the Gore/Bush election.

That leads me to the question "are any nations/countries operating at a surplus?"

I would suspect perhaps China, but those figures can be suspect.

Iceland?

Interesting publication on "public debt by country"

Public Debt as % of GDP

Suprising that the countries with lowest ratio (debt to GDP) are places I don't really want to live:

Iran
Algeria
Botswana
Estonia

The worst debt ratios look like:

Italy
Belgium
Cyprus
Greece (no suprise here)
Grenada (dang, cause that's a cool place to visit)
Japan (oops)
Portugal



makes one wonder..... The 'developed' nations have the highest debt/GDP ratios... So our lifestyle has put us way in the hole... Let's go back to huts!

I want to thank Todd, Chumlee, the long lost Sparky, Carl, K-Lube, femalegenitalia-‘n’-Paste Schwartz and all the rest of you RINO/teabagger/alt-right denizens of the fever swamp you claim is conservative politics for your hard work that made it possible to elect the first woman president of the United States.

I do realize the election is a few days off but the media, that is totally controlled by the “democraps”, have taken control of every voting place in every church, basement and garage in America to insure a landslide that goes well beyond anything seen in modern history. Unless you count all of Putin’s elections of course. The only thing in doubt is how far the Senate will go Dem. We may see a new SCOTUS justice before the end of the year.

Your good works have metastasized into Trump, a person who has garnered descriptive words like racist, pathological liar, con artist, misogynist, birther, raging xenophobe and sexual predator. And let’s not forget his calls to incite political violence, the straight-up dictator move of threatening to arrest his opponents and blocking minorities from voting. Then there’s his debunked theories on international banks plotting the destruction of U.S. sovereignty, a veiled anti-Semitic attack and his claim Ted Cruz’s father conspired with Lee Harvey Oswald. There’s more but you certainly get the idea.

I’m sure many of you were hoping for a different candidate but you got what you deserved because there wasn't one capable or inspiring person in the infamous "Clown Car" lineup. All 16 of the non-Trump entrants were dunces, religious zealots, wimps or tyrants, all equally out of touch with voters. Scott Walker was a lipless sadist who in centuries past would have worn a leather jerkin and thrown dogs off the castle walls for recreation. Marco Rubio was the young rake with debts. Jeb Bush was the last offering in a fast-diminishing hereditary line. Ted Cruz was the Zodiac Killer. And so on.

By the time the other 16 candidates finished their mass-suicide-squad routine, a tail-chasing, sewer-mouthed septuagenarian New Yorker was accepting the nomination of the Family Values Party.

So, great work guys. You’ve made the USA the laughingstock of the rest of the free world. Keep chanting the new GOP mantra, "Grab them by the pussy." It’s gotten you where you are today.

Are you worried about voter fraud Todd? Every right thinking member of the RINO/teabagger/alt-right fringe is. What will you do Todd? What will you do?

It's not to late to take action. According to the Little Trump, Pennsylvania is Ground Zero for voter fraud. Jump into your rollin' coal humungo pick-em-up truck and head east to get those lawbreakers under control. But, before you leave you need credentials so you're all legal-like.

Go to VoteProtectors.org to get your own personalized badge. It'll make you look like a big deal and scare off the dead people still trying to vote. I took the liberty to get yours printed in advance.

You're welcome.

Do you think that Donald Trump respects any other opinions, other than his own?

(You may get to keep your guns, but only if you are willing to defend HIS opinions.)

What are you afraid of today Todd?



Did you know there are the 117 suicides in the U.S. each day (in comparison with 43 murders), 129 deaths from accidental drug overdoses, 96 people dying a day in automobile accidents (27 of whom aren't wearing seat belts, not to mention the unspecified amount driving distracted)? Add the 1,315 deaths each day due to smoking, the 890 related to obesity, and all the other preventable deaths from strokes, heart attacks and liver disease, and the message is clear: The biggest thing you have to fear is not a terrorist or a shooter or a deadly home invasion. You are the biggest threat to your own safety.

One more example of how we control the media Todd.

In its 144-year history, The Yale Record has never endorsed a Democratic candidate for president. In fact, we have never endorsed any candidate for president. This is, in part, due to our strong commitment to being a tax-exempt 501(c)3 organization, which mandates that we are “absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.”

This year’s presidential election is highly unusual, but ultimately no different: The Yale Record believes both candidates to be equally un-endorsable, due to our faithful compliance with the tax code.

In particular, we do not endorse Hillary Clinton’s exemplary leadership during her 30 years in the public eye. We do not support her impressive commitment to serving and improving this country—a commitment to which she has dedicated her entire professional career. Because of unambiguous tax law, we do not encourage you to support the most qualified presidential candidate in modern American history, nor do we encourage all citizens to shatter the glass ceiling once and for all by electing Secretary Clinton on November 8.

Do you let your wife vote Todd? If so you'd better have "the talk" with her before she goes wild in the voting booth.

[size:14pt][b]Red-state women may be defying their Trump-loving husba[/size]nds[/b]

I'm trying to understand you Todd. This may help. Or not.

The American Psychological Association says that 52 percent of American adults are coping with high levels of stress brought on by the election, according to national Harris Poll survey data released last week. Therapists around the country said in interviews that patients are coming to appointments citing their fears, anger and anxiety about the election. (Have you made your appointment Todd?)

To help alleviate this stress, Harvard University Business School professor Deepak Malhotra has outlined how we can move forward as a country. In an article entitled “How to Build an Exit Ramp for Trump Supporters,” Malhotra puts forth a series of suggestions for how to bring Trump’s supporters back into the political mainstream. These suggestions include:

Don’t force them to defend their beliefs.
Provide information, and then give them time.
Don’t fight bias with bias.
Don’t force them to choose between their idea and yours.
Help them save face.
Give them the cover they need.
Let them in.

Malhotra concludes with some levelheaded, patient admonitions:

“Some of the above advice requires that we temper our natural inclinations for how to behave when someone is yelling and screaming or pushing and shoving. It is well worth building this discipline. Of course, not everyone is ready to change their mind. Equally, not all minds can (or need) to be changed. But you will have a much greater likelihood of navigating the path to change if you invest in building an exit ramp. The election of 2016 is as important a time as any to do it.”

Where in the United States Constitution does it state the government is responsible for protecting its citizens from itself??? Oh wait, your from California and a liberal to boot (what a surprise), maybe the copy of the U.S Constitution didn't make it to you in the same format I received my copy!?!?! Pretty likely, considering California is a damn long way from Washington DC, even further in 1850...explains quite a lot actually.

The real question is, how many of you have read the Federalist Papers, or any original documents from the [i]men[i] who founded this country?? They devised the electoral congress specifically to avoid the type of election we are about to have!!! Dumbass Americans who take their cues directly from the media and reality TV should not be allowed to vote!!! Specifically, our delegates are supposed to be smart enough to avoid electing bad presidents...problem is they're paid off too, just like the FBI deputies assigned to Clintons case..

And before you ask, I actually agree with the statements regarding the panel of 16 the GOP found and led to the down selection of Donald Trump as republican nominee. At the same time I cannot vote for a "woman" that is probably, more than likely, the most corrupt person in American politics. Nor can I vote for someone that cheats on her husband and leaves the mister behind to die in the shithole known as Libya. Lets not even talk about leaking classified documents to non-cleared civilians. Your butt would be sitting 5 stories underground sipping water through a cotton bag every 30 seconds if you did the same. So yes, I will be taking my vote third party, in the hopes that they can gain some funding for the next cycle and we can have a slightly less monetarily influenced system of government.

what I find strangely ironic (if the democratic party secures victory) is that the republican party drew the congressional districts in 2010 to heavily favor their party. I think it still favors republicans almost 2:1 as they are drawn now.

Take a look at your district map(s) and see how crazy the lines are. Not sure how that is meant to ensure the "one man one vote" mantra.


Not that I'm angry at any political party (they're both doing themselves in), but it would seem the real focus should be on the process itself. Rigged? Perhaps... but in this case by the last people who drew the district lines... which in this case was the party in power at the last census (Republican)...

Odd, ain't it?

Its really no surprise if you follow human history....thou who is in power shall stay in power...most people don't remember that America was founded on getting away from tyrannical dictators and monarchs, and the reality is that is exactly what we have! First the Bush dynasty and then the Clinton dynasty. Its pathetic and frankly disgusting, but the best thing you can do is vote for congressmen and women, as well as further down the ballot that actually believe in the constitution and don't take money from lobbyists.

We need term limits!

Do you mean themselves?


Yes. West Maui is just south of North Hollywood.

So I guess we're wasting all this air arguing stuff (candidates, issues, etc) when it's highly unlikely that anything will change...

maybe being fatalistic will allow more time for hobbies rather than all this discussion?

Maybe, but won't that exacerbate the elder/seasoned politians from totally routing the new folk? They do that now, but I can imagine how well the power-brokers will manipulate representatives if none are in office long enough to learn the old/new tricks?

As opposed to those entrenched in office so long they are already in the power-broker pocket...?

Hmmmm....

Most issues that require public policy are very complicated and require hard choices to be made.

Term limits removes experienced experts with actual knowledge and wisdom from the process and replaces them with newbies.... Simply a bad idea. The lobby will have the experience and skills to run circles around you...

What you really want are politicians.. Yup... individuals who know how to negotiate and move the ball. Politicians who have the backbone to make hard choices within this negotiation on public policy issues are priceless.

It is a trivial thing for a politician to "make hard choices" and have NOBODY join him.... See Bernie Sanders and Ted Cruz..... One old timer and one newbie... It is indisputable that these are two lightweight politicians are noted for making "hard choices" and getting NOTHING Accomplished.

Hard choices... are actually easy to make... when you don't have to get anything done ... After all... it is a democracy... autocrats are not the answer!

Yes, from themselves. It is the responsibility of the government to do the following (from here: http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/03/23/against-all-enemies/)

Thus, there was an obvious need for government – legitimate, just government to carry out two main functions:

(1) protecting free people from foreign enemies and invaders;

(2) protecting honest, self-responsible, hard-working citizens within the nation from domestic lawbreakers who would use coercion, fraud, or force to deprive others of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If you harm yourself, by failing to wear a seatbelt (or properly straddle your horse, or what have you), that isn't the governments problem, nor should it be. Welcome to the nanny state... Can the government protect you from an avalanche if you cross into a known avalanche area? Can they protect you several hundred miles offshore, beyond reach of the most sophisticated miltary helicopters? Should they?? After all, was it their decision for you to be out there in the first place?

I fear America has become exactly what our founders set out NOT to create, and its the complacency of our citizens that has lead to this. Not that the people in power make it easy-and their are term limits in place which do just fine, but do you think Bill, or George, or any of the Presidents, Congressmen, Senators etc. really get out of politics just because they leave Washington? Its not like JuanK stopped designing boats because he had a couple of rather embarrassing and public failures, that's his career.

Surprisingly I agree with Mark on this, you need a skilled politician to navigate the system, but at the same time, its not term limits that are the problem. Its the money in politics. Big business, the NRA, U.S Chamber of Commerce etc. are the ones in control, NOT the citizens.

Tell that to Bernie and Donald Trump.... they have raised much/most of their money from citizens in small amounts.

Fact of life... that constitution that you choose to construe as doing just two things..... Makes it clear that citizens can petition their government... Petition = money = speech.

Big money in politics controls everything... sure... Tell it to Eric Cantor.... X member of the republican house leadership.

My view is that money comes from people and so cash over a certain amount comes with full disclosure and a SS number. Big money matches up to names... No more anonymous donors to pacs and super pacs..... Disclosure will allow the political process and a free press to vet private or public interest concerns. This system can work and has long been proposed by conservative pundit George Will.

I don't have a problem with the Koch brothers funding pro coal anti global warming efforts.. I get that this furthers their private interests... How it impacts my opinions is a function of their argument and the data they present.

Likewise, I don't have a problem with the big environmental donor funding the opposite point of view... He may have a financial interest in solar panel production.. again...knowledge about one's motives, interests and history is critical. The key point ... a name and SS number is attached...

Sunlight is the key.... not rants about big money.

There is a legit role for ANONYMOUS SPEECH. See Thomas Payne.... I think the courts should distinguish Speech as some form of Ideas being expressed. NOT CASH delivered in the dark of night.

I haven't thought about about what to do with stolen private communications now being made public... This seems different then stolen private documents and communications made within the government ostensibly for the public good/interest. So... yes... this is speech.... not so sure it should have no limits placed on it.

What we actually have to worry about is the debasement of two pillars of our democracy... independent judiciary and transfer of power.

Think about it.... it is just STUNNING for the FBI Director to go about discussing and releasing information in PRESS conferences on cases that DO NOT LEAD to judicial action months and now days before election. Yeah... he has the right of free speech... but ....See the latest dog and pony show s...t storm he created.... It threatens the basis of the constitution. This is just wrong and I can't remember any situation like this. Hell.... Ford pardoned Nixon to eliminate any chance of creating a slippery slope for judicial action against a high profile citizen getting railroaded (even if he was guilty as hell) and did this well before an election .... Comey...the republican... does not have the stones that Gerald Ford demonstrated. He seems happy to weigh in on elections rather then STFU. In this case... his free speech is undermining the basics of and independent judiciary ... one of three independent branches of government. Couple this with Trump hedging on the acceptance of the election results.... two out of the three constitutional branches of our government are BEING debased by two politicians in it for power for themselves. Wow!

Oh... and Congress... well it is supposed to do one of the few enumerated things in the constitution... advise and consent on appointments to one of the branches... WELL.... No!.... now the position seems to be... ONLY when we have a republican president will we do this job.. (see John McCain and of course the always wrong Ted Cruz)

This is about POWER.. not about Big Money... The big story is about the abuse of power... the old adage... follow the money.... well... the point is to follow the money because it leads you to and enables the abuse of power.

it ain't about the big money now....

You appear to be a libertarian. While it's good that you've found your own way, your ideas will never be tested. 

Awe, mikey is so good with those absolutes.

What does the rest of the world think about Hillary Clinton?

fyi, I'm not wasting a vote on either one of those fools.

I fond it ironic that the Clinton campaign used sex scandals to derail Trump, and now they may be brought down from an investigation of sex scandal...

The more I read about Anthony Weiner.. this guy was a real degenerate... and both Bill and Hillary stated that Anthony is the son they never had, and Humma is their second daughter...

Like many, I am not wasting a vote on either of these two scumbags.... sad that California does not allow for a write in vote...

Absoutely Carl.

The rest of the world is (selfishly) primairily interested in the foreign affairs policy of both candidates.

I think for that reason that most sympathy goes for Hilary.

Despite the fact that she sure may be a she-devil.

Doesn't matter which one wins, we've all already lost.

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/MOwesWn3vU4[/video] RIP, Richard...

Mike

Don't do that, Karl. You'll have no reason to complain if you didn't participate. Not that you'd ever complain about anything.... right?

You need sunshine. Your vitamin D is dropping like a stone up there.. Make a stop at Steeplechase and jump on someone's boat.

Ha! that's funny Ronald! It's always good to hear what the rest of the world thinks of this train-wreck we call "politics in the media"..


My sincerest hope is that after this political show is completed November 9, we can take this enthusiasm for "the process" and maybe turn it toward USSailing or World Sailing Federation (or whatever they call it now)...

Just adding my perspective from over the pond and close to the russian border (where their most sensitive military area )

Our national media is demonizing Trump while praising Clinton. Most friends and family of mine seem to accept the media picture as truth.
Personally I find both candidates untrustable to the extreme based on their verified historical actions.


I think I just observed some flying bacon outside my office window - becouse I actually agree with Todd. Seen from my office chair, the US election for president in 2016 looks like an choice of the "lesser evil".

Whomever the next US President might be - it will no doubt continue to be interesting times.

Well, don't discount all the conspiracy theories which also abound on social media. I think one or both candidates will be convicted or go missing, leaving vice-presidential candidates in charge, or executive orders keeping the current president for a 3rd term, Russian president Putin somehow gets elected, blah blah

So many other balls in the pitch as well... Supreme Court appointments, Cabinet ministers, Congressional members, etc.

I would consider myself somewhat "informed" as a voter, but the choices are certainly distasteful at best.

This "ugly" media campaign is nothing new, however. I believe it may reach all the way back to a particularly negative election for Thomas Jefferson in 1800? So we've got quite a history of slinging darts, misleading information, character assassinations, etc.

But it does make for awesome spectating. Too bad these folks determine the future for our country (and possibly beyond that).

You can take solice in the fact that while most governments have issues, the general population worldwide is usually much more amenable.

Oh, and don't forget your "duck and cover" training. A certain radical leader is really trying hard to get a nuke missle working. This person is my real concern, as he appears to have the temprament to actually "push the button". Sanctions aren't working, so I would guess the politbureau feel there's nothing to lose...

Or almost as bad... they need money badly enough to sell this technology to other folks who have the same idea (maybe not ballistic missile, but nuclear delivery nonetheless)

Not all Donald Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists appear to be Donald Trump supporters.

Hobie1616

If you are into white supremacy - I suggest travelling to Russia or eastern europe in general. They are good at that kind of mentality.


The dirty sort of posting you just made is part of the issue - it is not under the control of Trump and it really does not describe his politics as I understand them. But it is very useful to mentally try to smear white supremacy on Trump.
Just like the other side is smearing whatever they can on Clinton.

I find that kind of stuff tiresome and targeted at kids who are not educated and critical thinkers. But after cutting away all the dirty fluff there is still more than enough evidence of both candidates not being excatly "the right stuff" to put it mildly.

Rolf, Here's the problem. Not all republicans... even most of them are white nationalists, racists, bigots, anti Semites or in clinton's word "deplorables"... but all of these folks, who call themselves members of these groups are aligned with Trump. It took Trump a week to decline the support of one of the countries high profile politicians, an ex KKK leader. These kind words were not even as subtle as dog whistles. The behavior has caused many prominent members of the party to renounce ever voting for him... much less supporting his agenda, or fitness for office. In a two party system.... they are forced to choose.... and in not choosing risk the fates of what they see as a dangerous outcome and then be forced to shoulder their responsibility or lack there of.

These never trumpers consider that allowing ANY of these "deplorables" a seat at the table or even in the room as unacceptable and counter to their conservative governing agenda and their ability to get 270 electoral votes. 50 years ago, the conservative movement threw out the John Birch Society and the Koch brothers father for their antisemitism. .... they managed to elect Reagan and two Bushes holding to those principles by keeping the deplorable far far away ... Now even the Koch brothers decline to support Trump because the company he keeps is unacceptable.

So, the old saying.... sleep with dogs... don't be surprised by waking up with fleas is advice they are taking to heart.

Perhaps in your parliamentary system, the option of a voting for a minority party and hoping for a coalition government is a choice... but not in the States.

So? That changes nothing regarding my argument that smearing is just that. Smearing.

Calling half the population "deplorables" is not exactly policy. And Trump and the trumpists are not any better as far as I can see.

Focus on policy, what the candidates and partys say they will do, and later what they really did. Not the dirtslinging and PsyOps which is what you and Mike is bringing to the discussion now.

Regarding policy - I dont like what Hillary wants to do with the US or foreign policy, and I dont like what Trump wants to do either. :-)

We have saying... people = policy....ergo... the flee problem.

But Got it, you hear this as smears given your filters. ... If you want policy here... you have to go read it...on the clinton web site.... much quicker read at the trump site. It seems most people are bored with policy... don't care, don't think the congress will do a dam thing about any policy anyway... so, just like the last 6 years... or just vote their tribe.

So... what should the US foreign policy be from a euro view point.? Should we copy the Brits? What should be our principle... and where would you put that principle into play?

Okay.

Trump wants to know why we can't use the nukes we've got.

Throw out every immigrant, legal or illegal, that's ever come to the US.

Bar any Muslim from entering the country. Period.

All Mexicans are thieves and rapists.

Deny the vote to minorities.

Your thoughts?

Mike

sounds like a russian ultra-nationalist from the 90s to me. Ref. what I said initially about both candidates..




Mark,

I think the US needs to focus on national debt, budget deficits, internal issues /and/ foreign policy. Discussing foreign policy as an isolated case is not really relevant in my opinion.

Here's another one, complete with a room full of brainwashed minions. Simply brilliant...

https://youtu.be/e6u0utMpFXo

Mike

BTW, why can't I get these to show up as boxes you can view on this site anymore?

I think you have to change the hyperlink... the video insert thingy on this site doesn't understand the "youtu.be" thing. I think there is a way to switch to the http:\\youtube.com which will work with that video button

I would agree with your thoughts Rolf, as would most of the citizenry here in USA. But I would counter that actually making progress in any of those areas is much more difficult than you would imagine.

I read an article (posted earlier) about debt:GDP ratios by country and it would appear in my view that most developed countries carry ratios of 75% or higher (debt to economic ability), which ironically appears to be about the same debt:equity that banks require for personal loans.

I think the government being debt free might inadvertantly cripple the financial services sector of the global economy?

The media is corporate controlled, and there is no mandate directing the media to be truthful. They can legally make up their stories from fiction.
Voting in the usa is not transparent. You can't track your vote.
The federal reserve is a corporate privately owned bank that prints money without backing it up, then charges the USA interest on all the money that they print. Also the current fractional reserve system allows banks to monetize debt.
This presidential election has 5 candidates. We vote by mail at our house, and i saw the ballots. The idea that we have to vote for 1 of 2 candidates for presi of the stesi is a fallacy.

I agree with some of your points.

Yes, the media is controlled by corporate interests. Since the suspension of both the Fairness Doctrine as well as the Equal Time Act, there is no rule requiring the media to present all aspects of an issue or political candidate equally. I believe today's media may be considered more "info-tainment" than straight fact. I'm no Edward R. Murrow but it does sometimes shock me what the media presents as 'fact'.

Voting in the USA is somewhat transparent. While you may not be able to track your individual vote (the ballot does not contain your name), in our state votes are tracked with paper backup as well as computer tabulation. Records are kept of who voted (but not what their vote was) and if the number of people who voted does NOT equal the number of ballots, there is a full investigation.

So I can track whether my vote was tabulated, but no one but me will know how I cast my vote.

And yes, you are correct in there are more than 2 presidential candidates listed on the ballot. I think it's fair to say that there are only two candidates with a realistic shot at gathering enough votes/delegates to secure the majority win...As a "winner take all" country, rather than a more parlimentary system, we tend to ignore those candidates with no statistical chance of advancing.

well....we cook things down to their essence.

The US is the lone superpower spending an enormous amount more money on defense then even aggregates of countries.... I know the US stance will have profound influence on your part of the world...

so,

are you more of an isolationist.... the US Military is a huge deterrent just by sitting in the US ports and the US won't inject military power around the world. see old school republicans ... Lingburgh...and now Gary Johnson.

are you a classic Republican....The US role REMAINS fighting the godless communists... now autocrats of russia and china See Bob Dole. Richard Nixon. Reagan

Are you a anticomunist Democrat... aka Kennedy and Johnson. Carter... containment with out reach to the communists.

Are you a realist Republican ... the US role is leadership and maintaining the status quo... so Bush I kicked Iraq out of Kuwait... but refused to upset the world order and take over Iraq.

Are you supporting Obama's foreign policy which is much like Bush I and Clinton I and II... Realist democrat Which is to build international institutions, maintain world order and support human rights where you can with military power with minimal footprints. eg. Kuwait, Bosnia/Serbia, Lybia?

Are you for the totally novel approach of trump who proposes... with draw from ensuring nuclear non proliferation.... withdraw from Nato and asian treaties which cost us too much money and tie our hands in knots from taking what we want... and replace it with belicose noise and large increases in defense spending so that we can act about how tough and kick butt the US will be in the future.

What works for northern Europe... if you can't pick from one of these traditions?

All the news...

“Neo-Nazi leader Andrew Anglin plans to muster thousands of poll watchers across all 50 states. His partners at the alt-right website ‘the Right Stuff’ are touting plans to set up hidden cameras at polling places in Philadelphia and hand out liquor and marijuana in the city’s ‘ghetto’ on Election Day to induce residents to stay home.

In a related story, Democrats plan to hand out moonshine and meth in rural areas to induce residents to stay home.

Word.

Mark

it does not matter really.

Why not?

Becouse if the USA find it in US interest - the US will act on national interests no matter what I think or what president is elected in a few days

The rest of your question is really about moral and good vs evil. That is really not "essencial".

Without a sound economy and a unified populace to build on - the toolbox for implementing foreign policy becomes very restricted. Lack of finances and a populace with high level of internal tension was what brought the USSR down.


USA is built on some clear principles (known as what forms policy) and needs, and have a strong history. I dont find much of those principles and history represented by the two candidates. Even though one of them do claim to represent just this: MAGA etc. while the other claim to be the candidate for a growing economy (but no mention about budget deficits)..


Be assured that I have the same questions on our own government - and I dont find much I can respect there either.




Of much more interest is the original topic Todd brought up. What role does the media have in the election and in forming policy. Ie. are they reporting fact and bringing valuable analysis/comments/perspectives to the election, or even in forming policy?
I know what I think - and no surprise that I think media is guilty of dumbing down and distorting facts more than serving their independent og very important role. And I find the same viewpoints and angles on matters in our national media.
Pretty interesting?

Well put... Thank you

Yes the can, but then again, they are opening themselves up to a slander suit.... Understandably they will have to prove "actual malice", but this could hurt their credibility of a new source...

Look at the case of Brian Williams/NBC and Dan Rather/CBS

Trump is an idiot that talks a lot, but Clinton, now she is a gal of action.. for instance:

1. Gave Russia a reset button which reset cold war
2. Lack of a coherent plan to address the Arab Spring
3. Deteriorating relations with Israel
4. Assessment of Bashar al-Assad (whom she labeled a “reformer”)
5. Cluelessness that withdrawal of U.S. forces in Iraq would give the radicals a foothold
6. Benghazi scandal
7. Lack of bringing to justice the jihadists who killed our 4 Americans
8. Victory lap on Osama bin Laden giving a false impression of al-Qaeda’s decimation
9. Blindsiding the Israeli prime minister with a public declaration of U.S. policy on “1967 borders”
10. Backing Hugo Chavez’s candidate in Honduras rather that the middle and business classes’ choice (who was also pro-American)
11. Relaxation of Cuban sanctions followed by Alan Gross’s imprisonment
12. Surprising Poland and the Czech Republic by pulling out anti-missile sites
13. Embracing Hosni Mubarak (calling him a family friend) just when pressure was needed to prevent what ultimately became his overthrow
14. The lack of a cogent approach to the Middle East
15. Failing to take decisive action in Syria before jihadists poured into the country
16. The decision to overthrow President Gaddafi in Libya
17. Downplaying human rights, especially with China
18. Failing to robustly support the Green Revolution
19. Engagement of Iran and foot-dragging on sanctions, allowing Iran to reach the cusp of a nuclear weapons capability
20. Announced “pivot” to Asia without carrying through
21. Erased email server
22. Clinton cash
23. Maintaining the status quo with Pakistan
24. Lied to FBI and to Congress
25. Creator of ISIS by pulling out of Iraq too quickly despite military recommendation not to
26. Called Trump Supporters “Basket of Deplorables”

Good work femalegenitalia-n-Paste, I'll see your Clinton bashing and raise you a Newsweek Magazine cover.

Why Russians Are Backing Trump
Inside Putin's efforts to dissolve NATO

Issue hits newsstands tomorrow.

Guess What, Iowa Cop Killer Was ‘Troubled Loner.’ There’s A Lot Of Those!

Greene was ejected from a high school football game after taunting black audience members and waving a Confederate flag at them because they hadn’t stood for the National Anthem.

Todd? Chumley? Sparky?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: WHY HE FEARS A HILLARY CLINTON WHITE HOUSE

There are plenty of signs that Moscow isn’t pleased with the prospect of a Clinton presidency. In recent months, Russia made a series of bold moves that harked back to the 1980s, offering tours of Cold War bomb shelters, staging intercontinental ballistic missile tests on state television and announcing war rations in case of a conflict with the U.S.

Russia’s consternation also stems from the fact the U.S. has already started its energy war. As of January, America began exporting crude oil for the first time in four decades. This March, it also began exporting more liquefied natural gas than it was importing for the first time since Dwight Eisenhower was president...

Russia depends on its revenue from oil and gas for more than half of its federal budget, according to its Ministry of Finance. That, combined with weak energy prices in recent years and Russia being stuck in its longest recession in two decades, leaves the country and Putin in a very precarious position. Much of its petroleum export revenue comes from countries in the European Union, many of which are U.S. allies. Mindful of this, Clinton told Deutsche Bank in October 2014, “I want to export gas, especially to our friends in order to undercut, in Europe’s case, the pressure from Russia.”

Eroding Russia’s energy dominance is a much shrewder way to handle it than direct conflict or even cyberwarfare, says retired Air Force General Michael Hayden, former head of both the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency under George W. Bush.

WHY VLADIMIR PUTIN’S RUSSIA IS BACKING DONALD TRUMP

While American intelligence officers have privately briefed Trump about Russia’s attempts to influence the U.S. election, he has publicly dismissed that information as unreliable, instead saying this hacking of incredible sophistication and technical complexity could have been done by some 400-pound “guy sitting on their bed” or even a child.

Officials from two European countries tell Newsweek that Trump’s comments about Russia’s hacking have alarmed several NATO partners because it suggests he either does not believe the information he receives in intelligence briefings, does not pay attention to it, does not understand it or is misleading the American public for unknown reasons.

Trump’s behavior, however, has at times concerned the Russians, leading them to revise their hacking and disinformation strategy. For example, when Trump launched into an inexplicable attack on the parents of a Muslim-American soldier who died in combat, the Kremlin assumed the Republican nominee was showing himself psychologically unfit to be president and would be forced by his party to withdraw from the race.

Trump and his campaign have also spread propaganda created as part of the Kremlin's effort, relying on bogus information generated through traditional Russian disinformation techniques. In one instance, a manipulated document was put out onto the internet anonymously by propagandists working with Russia; within hours, Trump was reciting that false information at a campaign rally.

The words that so shocked the British were “our country has no idea,” and “I doubt it.” All of the NATO allies are sure Russia is behind the hacking. All of America’s intelligence agencies are, too. The foreign intelligence services had been sharing what they knew about this with the Americans, and Trump had been told about it. But he blithely dismissed the conclusion of not only the United States but its allies as well, based on absolutely nothing.

And so, for perhaps the first time since World War II, countries in Western Europe fear that the American election, should Trump win, could trigger events that imperil their national security and do potentially irreparable harm to the alliances that have kept the continent safe for decades.


There's a lot more Schwartz. Read it over and provide us your thoughts.

Do you know these guys Todd? It's okay Todd, we understand.

This is the alt-right.

Until recently, not many Americans knew this term, a catchall for a loose confederation of far-right locos so deviant that a few years ago they were in danger of extinction. Then they found Trump. Or Trump found them. Now, they are stationed along his parapets in a union that represents the biggest uptick of white power activity in American politics since the Ku Klux Klan’s invisible empire in the 1920s. Neo-Nazis do door-knocks for Trump and scream “Sieg Heil” outside his rallies. And Trump has gone along for the ride, retweeting alt-right propaganda and hiring Stephen Bannon, whose Breitbart News Network has become the most significant transmitter of the movement’s ideas to a mass audience. Thanks to Trump, ethno-nationalism is poised to be a force in American politics for the first time in decades.

My Journey to the Center of the Alt-Right

i am guessing the owners of which ever corp owns newsweek, want Hillary to win. How in the world do they have access to American intelligence briefings? or did they take a little creative license there?

How would they have information to what is noted on the National Security Briefings... Oh..!! Darn silly me... I forgot Hillary gets the same briefing and it's on her server...

Are you sure you don't know these guys Todd?

And yet even in the best-case scenario—if the alt-right's leaders slink back into obscurity after the election—the movement has unleashed an ugly and volatile force into American politics. It has proved that a small group of trolls can poison discourse with violent, racist rhetoric and help to elevate a candidate who entertains ideas like registering all Muslim Americans in a database. It has built the iconography, language and infrastructure for a millennial version of an old hate. And together, the alt-right and Trump have created a potential space for a nationalist white voting bloc. It’s not so hard to imagine a European-style ethno-nationalist movement emerging from Trumpism, one that isn’t dependent on hardcore alt-righters but taps into the alt-lite and alt-white demos.

I realize Steven isn't as big a deal to you wingers as Nugent but this is a pretty big event.

The black belt martial artist-turned-action movie star “has been insistent for a long time in asking to be granted Russian citizenship,” Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters in Russia. “He is known for his warm feelings to our country, he never made a secret of it, and he’s also a well-known actor, which gave grounds to make him a Russian citizen.”

In 2013, the Kremlin tapped Seagal to be the face of its weapons industry and help market the Degtarev arms plant.

And just like that, Steven Seagal has become a Russian citizen

Will he use his Secret Ninja skills to plant even more false information with the FBI?

Foreigner steals jobs from Americans.

TRUMP'S WIFE MODELED IN US PRIOR TO GETTING WORK VISA

More lies Schwartz?

Megaproducer Chuck Lorre puts a vanity card in the end credits of his TV shows. This one appeared in last night's Big Bang Theory credits.

CHUCK LORRE PRODUCTIONS, #541

Don't be fooled. Big Daddy can't save us. Our salvation lies within ourselves. Within our own ingenuity and determined effort. "Make America great again" is a bumper sticker for victimhood. But we are not victims. We are the creators of opportunity. Sure the system's rigged. It always has been. So what?! We are a nation of immigrants who have consistently ignored the rigging. You won't let us join your club? %#&@ you, we'll start our own club. You won't let us go to your school? %#&@ you, we'll start our own school. You won't let us earn money your way? %#&@ you, we'll earn it our way. You won't give us a chance here? %#&@ you, we will go elsewhere. You want to know what makes America great? I got two words for you.

Ha! Coming from the person who can't weave together a coherent paragraph on his own or convey an opinion with out playing kunt n' paste.

Ya killin' me mikey. Keep it up though, I need a little entertainment now and again.

Here's a fun game, tell me something positive about either of the two major party candidates. Seems that's a unique oddity in today's election process where sh!t slinging is their only proficient attribute.

Mikee, THIS show how absolutely close minded and irrational you, and most libtards are. You of all people would actually believe what you posted.

I can't even post an argument/rebuttal with your twilight zone mentality.
Too bad for me/us that many have this one sided, close minded, lie spewing mentality.

You're such a tool Mikee

Right, but in our screwed system, the top two are the only ones that will win anytime soon. If you actually care, you'll vote for the lesser of two evils- in this case it's a no brainer- and it ain't for no Child rapist defending multi millionaire- from the American political system.

It seems no one really understands how corrupt, and how the Clintons machine is made multi millions- illegally off of their political influence.
Has Trump made millions from being a politician? Not yet anyways.
It's here and now, lesser of two evils, no comparison on who that is.

Ya know MIkee, I've also actually read about why allegedly he was upset at those two cops.
Usually however, the mainstream media usually leaves that part out.
If it is true, neither one of us was there.
I didn't hear he waved the confederate flag b/c some black didn't stand for the anthem however.

Either way,
#1. - I never would have brought an Confederate flag into the stands, etc. Much to your amazement, I can't ever remember owning anything with a confederate flag on it, or a confederate flag, etc. But your mentality no doubt thinks I probably manufacture them.
#2- I think the cops more than likely tried to keep the peace, and could see that this move (if true, may have been), was not an intelligent one, and removed him and his flag.
Of all the 'true' conservatives I've ever known, none of them have been the least bit 'racially predjudice'.

Funny how the party that kept blacks from voting, and kept schools segregated, and is/was the party of the KKK is: ? It sure wasn't the Republicans.

Of course you can't post a rebuttal Todd. All of the policies come direct from Trump's mouth. Meanwhile, did you know Weird Al wrote a song about you?

"A victory by Hillary Clinton in deeply blue California is expected — with some polls showing the Democratic candidate with a large lead. But that hasn’t stopped some people — mostly conservative and overwhelmingly white — from signing up to try to scour for voter fraud."

Overwhelmingly white. Why is that Todd?

"Orange County has a controversial history when it comes to poll observing. In 1988, the Orange County registrar of voters was told that mostly Latino residents arriving at 20 Santa Ana polling locations were greeted on the day of the presidential election by uniformed guards holding signs with a message in Spanish and English that read: “Non-Citizens Can’t Vote.”

The guards had been hired by the campaign of a Republican state assembly candidate, and the incident produced allegations of voter intimidation and racism — as well as a lawsuit that eventually was settled."

"Trump’s calls for supporters, who are mostly white, to watch for fraud by urban voters, including in places like Philadelphia — with a population that is about 50% black — has led many critics to accuse him of bigotry."

Bigotry by Republicans?!?! Say it ain't so Todd.

since it's illegal to present election results before close of polling on election day, AND election results aren't official until for up to 10 days after election day (to give time to count absentee and provisional ballots), these "polls" you refer to can only be speculations based on:

- exit poll interviewing (those few people who will discuss who they voted for. Keep in mind the ballots are forever secret, so we have to trust when a voter "says" they voted for a particular candidate/issue)

- Demographics. It is public record to know WHO voted (and what party they are registered with) but not HOW they voted, so if a particular precinct has 1500 voters participate in early voting, and 75% of those are Democratic, the "polls" can only speculate that all of the registered voters will vote straight down their party lines. So they can say "Democrats are in the lead" ONLY because more of them showed up at a particular time. Did all of them vote their party? Doubtful

Focus on the issues, rather than these "polls" which are concocted by media interests to help influence us sheep out there to "go with the winner"... But the public loves to be spoon-fed and patted on the head, so ....

Does that make me an angry voter? I would like to think not, but the head-fake the media presents does give me pause at how gullible we (myself included) can be.

Actually, one (or two) good things about this whole train-wreck? Being in a swing state, I had the luxury of meeting BOTH candidates and one ex-president within the span of a week.

Had I only known to wear an "UNDECIDED" t-shirt I could probably have had them kissing my keister, but that's for the next election I guess.

And I will give serious props to the kool-aide drinkers otherwise known as Campaign Aides who have got to be the most motivated, hard-working millenials I've ever seen. They must live on red-bull and Nyquill as most looked so strung out last week I thought they'd collapse.

When I asked an 'aide' an "off-message" question, the response reminded me of the Star Trek (season 2 episode 12; I, Mudd)... "I am not programmed to respond in that area"

Your thought would flow much better if you said, "... who can't weave a coherent paragraph together on his own..."

With out is spelled without.

Keep trying Carl. You'll eventually catch up with Todd the CAPS LOCK king.

Why is it, that with complex problems like voting the leader, makes that everybody tries to proof his right.
Advancing out that all the facts point in their big being right.
Despite the media epoch which informs every intelligent person very well.


There is a theory that our judgement is far less rational as we think.

This theory suggests that we all have this moral gut feeling which works as a loathsome mechanisme.
This starts already when we are baby's. Do you, yes or no, like the milk, the food , which toys to play with, etc.

Later on this moral intuition will eventually bond people together in "moral tribes".
Like the conservatives contra the progessives, the left or rightwings, etc.

However, because of this loathing mechanism, bringing up facts and figures, wlll by definition never convince the other tribe!

More's the pity that this theory gives no real solution.
Maybe focus on the moderating group. Hardliners can never be reached anyway.

Your recommendations have been considered and dismissed.

Try again?

A perfect example of tribalism is right here in front of us. mikey will blindly follow fools like Obama, and Todd will blindly follow fools like Bush. In the current State, Clinton and Trump.

Our two party system is completely fukced. I have no demographic to cling to. The republicans are too liberal for me fiscally and too into controlling every facet of my life. The democrats are the exact same except for shuffling around a few got button topics that have zero value in the operation of our Republic.

I despise both of the presidential candidates. They are both trash human beings. Luckily I've got some good people running on the local level decent on the state level. That's what really matters. The actual role of our president isn't that great, the Seat does not carry that much actual power without Congress behind it, in theory. When you get pieces of sh!t like Bush and Obama in there, and sheep not holding their elected accountable, you get done of the problems we've got.

Our government is corrupt on virtually every level and has strayed so far from what it started, I don't think there's any going back.

The S&P 500 was down Friday for the ninth straight day, something that hasn’t happened since 1980. “The U.S. elections are the elephant in the room for markets,” Julius Baer’s head of research Christian Gatticker told Bloomberg. Donald Trump is still a long shot, consistently trailing Clinton in key swing states, but the stock market seems to be evaluating his odds for what they are: a low, if real, chance of economic harm.

Deporting some 11 million undocumented immigrants, building a wall along the border with America’s third biggest trading partner, starting a trade war with Mexico and China that would destroy 4 million U.S. jobs: These are all deeply harmful economic policies.

Moody’s says Trump’s policies would throw the U.S. economy into the longest recession since the Great Depression. Citigroup thinks a Trump win could cause a global depression. By a different measure, Trump in the White House would cause the American economy to shrink by $1 trillion over five years, according to British research firm Oxford Economics.

That a campaign based on those ideas still has by some estimates a 35 percent chance of winning should scare markets.


You don't care do you Carl? You've got your little cabinet shop deal going so you're immune from Wall Street. Oh, wait. Wasn't wind blown saw dust the only thing moving in your shop during the last downturn?

But I survived and thrived didn't I? I work for the 1% on up, they give no ****s when it comes to showing off their worth, especially when the smart ones hedge on things going to hell. When there's blood on the streets, but property.

I seriously doubt Trump will be elected. How rigged the game is was shown top us when Clinton took the Democratic Party's nomination.

Building a wall? Neither's puppet master will allow it.
Removing all the illegals? Neither's puppet master will allow it.

And as far as me caring, I don't really. Bring on the chaos, I'm getting bored.

"It turns out that Trump is not the rough-talking, screwy, ignorant candidate they say he is, but is actually a wise politician and a prescient presidential candidate." — A May 31 column in DPRK Today, a mouthpiece of the reclusive, deeply anti-American regime in North Korea, after the Republican nominee suggested the U.S. should pull its troops from South Korea unless Seoul pays it more.

No wonder the wingers are firmly behind Trump.

Oh oh...

The FBI's much-trumpeted new scrutiny of emails related to Hillary Clinton has turned up nothing that would cause the bureau to recommend charges against her, the bureau's director, James B. Comey, has told Congress.

Somebody stepped in a doggie Picasso.

Rigged? I'm surprised how many people are buying into that. The voting system is so purposefully disjointed that it would be practically impossible to actually rig it. Everyone keeps screaming "rigged!" but where's the evidence?

The electoral college is an artifact - I'll give you that but it's worked in republican's favor in the not so distant past. The same guys that are screaming rigged are pointing at polling stations that are staying open late to allow the people already in line at closing time to place their vote (due to overwhelming local turnout). They point at this as "rigging" the vote. However, folks, being provided a chance to vote is the foundation of democracy. The fact that people are publicly trying to keep people from voting and not getting called to the mat for it is terrifying. It's bad enough with the gerrymandering that takes place with district border manipulation but this is a whole new level. Man, this is some twisted crap and I'm shocked at some of the people that are buying it without question.

We're too divided. Maybe what we need is a horrifying failure for the next four years, to unify us behind someone like in the Carter/Reagan election? Bush II and Obama tried, but apparently weren't quite bad enough.

Channeling Rachel Phelps here...

Mike

The national nightmare is over. Nugent is back in the news.

[size:14pt][b]Ted Nugent grabs his crotch at Trump rally[/b][/size]

No surprise here...


Donald Trump is losing more than this election. If recent news reports and his own self-evident behavior are any indication, may also be losing his mind.

Trump has entered the final days of his campaign increasingly anxious and in need of both discipline and reassurance, according to a shocking New York Times report Sunday. He barely sleeps and reportedly needs aides to keep him company late at night, particularly his son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner. Because his poll numbers are looking worse and worse by the day, he’s had to instead point to the size of his rallies and insist that aides vocally share his optimism. When in less generous moods, Trump has made ominous threats, such as vowing to create a super PAC after the election which exact vengeance against politicians he deems to have been enemies.

Perhaps the most remarkable story is how Trump’s Twitter account — which he once wielded like an ax against everyone from Republican primary opponents and Hillary Clinton to former pageant queens who angered him at 3 a.m. — has been taken over by his staff, who review and edit his tweets before publishing them.

Trump’s deteriorating mental state has also had a very real impact on the substance of his campaign. Despite maintaining comparatively higher discipline now than in the early months of his candidacy, Trump has still shot himself in the foot, despite pleas from those around him. On Oct. 22, as he prepared for a speech in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, intended to draw attention to a series of populist policy proposals, Trump insisted on threatening to sue the women who had publicly accused him of sexual assault.


Still bored Carl? I'm heading to Costco to buy a case of popcorn.

I would counter that it's in no one's best interest that the government "fail". I doubt seriously that anyone would actually wish that upon their political rival, as my recollection of a failed government is something like Somalia which no one wants.

Sure, you've stockpiled 10,000 rounds of ammunition and some C-4. But I don't think that will solve a whole lot when the country is in khaos (no utilities, no martial law, etc.). Unless you've got a large piece of property (and the manpower to defend it from the hoards) and are really good at farming...

If the rate of lying in this election cycle has failed to impress a giant group of people, I'm sure the government "failing" would also land with a dull thud of denial.

When they run out of ammo and explosives, they can throw Beck Gold Coins at 'em.

I'm just baffled that Trump is polling at around 45% of the popular vote.
If you look at all of the crazy stuff he said both in public and in private he really must be some salesman, I have not heard him say one positive or hopeful thing during this entire election.
Ripping people of with his fake university, losing a billion dollars on a Casino(!), not paying any taxes, and just not being knowledgeable in general make it hard for me to believe millions of people want this man as the leader of their country.

You clearly missed the sarcasm. You need to go watch Major League again.

No one wants a repeat of the gas rationing or any of the other economic horrors of the late 70s. And, we're extremely unlikely to find another Reagan.

Mike

I didn't serve all those years to hand the place to Fascists. I know I’m not the only one who has ever taken an oath that includes “...against all enemies, foreign and domestic...” Call me psychic, but I think Trump and his white nationalist groupies fall into the latter category—and when we find out for sure, it is going to be way too late to un-rub this particular genie lamp. So do all of us G.I.s a favor and exercise that Constitutional right to vote. Please. It is perhaps the ultimate form of national service, and just might head off a national nightmare.


Word brother.

Glenn Beck Confesses: 'So Much Of What I Used To Believe Was A SHAM' - Ya Think?

Do you think Beck will buy the gold coins back from Chumlee? Stranger things have happened.


There have been too many bizarre events in the past year to keep track of. This election is going to provide material for a whole library worth of books and analyses. And one of the subsections of the collection is going to have to cover the metamorphosis of Glenn Beck.

When the campaign season began Beck was reluctant to choose a candidate. It was an embarrassment of riches with several of Beck's favorite wingnuts in the running. However, as the roster whittled down he eventually decided that Ted Cruz was God's choice for president and Beck took up the Lord's cause.

Unfortunately for God, Cruz was bested by a reality TV game show host. Donald Trump tagged him as Lying' Ted and cast him into the Lake of Fire. Throughout it all, Beck remained firmly opposed to Trump. At every opportunity he blasted The Donald as unbalanced and unfit. It was jarring to see Beck taking a position that was in alignment with many progressives, at least so far as NeverTrump was concerned. But he still wasn't on board with Hillary Clinton.

Nicholas Schmidle of New Yorker magazine has noticed Beck's descent into Bizzaro World as well. He writes that Beck was recently impressed with a speech by Michelle Obama. You know, the wife of the guy that Beck once said had "a deep seated hatred for white people." On his radio radio show Beck described the First Lady's speech as "The most effective political speech I have heard since Ronald Reagan."

Continuing, Beck said that "If you’re a decent human being, those words were dead on." Although you would still have to wonder what Beck knows about being a decent human being. He has spent most of the last decade condemning liberals to hell and prophesying the end of civilization. But according to Scmidle:

"That was the old Beck, he insists: 'I did a lot of freaking out about Barack Obama.' But, he said, 'Obama made me a better man.' He regrets calling the President a racist and counts himself a Black Lives Matter supporter. 'There are things unique to the African-American experience that I cannot relate to,' he said. 'I had to listen to them.'"
Of course, Beck has had revelatory transformations before. There is no more reason to believe that this one is any more sincere than the others. It's often just a scam to attract more media attention. But it is kinda fun. Especially when when he goes after Trump saying that "This guy is dangerously unhinged. And, for all the things people have said about me over the years, I should be able to spot Dangerously Unhinged." That's actually pretty funny, and suggests some measure of self-awareness. As does this:

"So much of what I used to believe was either always a sham or has been made into a sham. There’s nothing deep."
That may be the truest thing that Beck ever said. He is tacitly admitting the fallacy of his whole career as a demagogic broadcaster. Although he isn't quite admitting that he was responsible for creating the sham.

Time will tell if this incarnation of Beck lasts for more than a couple of ratings periods. But it's gonna be interesting to watch how his fans react to this transformation. We may already have a hint of it as Beck worries about recent death threats he's received from Trump supporters. He's now saying about some of the folks who used to follow him like a prophet that "These people scare the hell out of me." Me too, Glenn. Me too.

From Rolling Stone Magazine

But now is the moment for every last American to decide what it truly means to be a citizen. You can be reluctant about Hillary Clinton. You don't even have to vote for her (though I did, without doubt or hesitation).

What you cannot do is vote for Donald Trump and pretend that this is just another election, and he is just another candidate. It is your minimum duty as a citizen not to support a racist, sexist, unqualified, dishonest, corrupt manchild who celebrates everything that's ugly about America and not a single thing that's great about it.

No matter how left out or left behind you feel, voting for Trump is nothing short of a moral failure. It's a vicious act against the human beings, mostly women and people of color, who would suffer miserably under his presidency.

I honestly can't believe that one of these nincompoops is going to be our next President.

How much of a check do they have to write to settle the slander case they just lost? And how much is the other plaintiff going after them for?

Lets see, Dan Rather, Brian Williams, Rolling Stone, Daily Kos, etc.... They say you can't make this **** up... in their world I guess you can...

Is that goat roper bar logic?

Is this your immediate future Todd?


I feel betrayed by my Trump-voting extended family. It goes beyond just the fact that Trump is the worst candidate I can imagine. It’s that I have a son with severe autism. Everything in life is a challenge for him. He is near puberty now, and this flood of confusing emotions just makes everything that much more overwhelming to him. He is regressing in school. He has developed such deep obsessive-compulsive behaviors that they affect every aspect of his day. He can barely communicate verbally, and it’s hard to understand what he’s trying to say even when he does talk as rarely do the string of words make much sense. He can’t communicate how he hurts physically or emotionally.

Anything new scares him to death. He has no sense of his own safety or the dangers around him. He is getting bigger and taller. When he panics, it’s almost impossible to keep hold of him so he doesn’t hurt himself or others. He may run into traffic. He doesn’t mean to harm anyone. Deep down he is kind and even silly. The world is just often a terrifying place for him, and I fear this is only going to get harder for him.

We get basically no assistance from local or state disability services. We’ve been on the Medicaid Waiver wait list for years with no end in sight. Frankly, we are getting rather desperate. We are just exhausted. We feel like we are losing. We feel like we are failing him.

Compounding this is that we have a younger son. He alternates between fiercely loving and protecting his older brother to being completely overwhelmed by a life that to him feels really unfair. He often has to play second fiddle to his brother because he has so many needs. It isn’t fair. We do whatever we can to make him feel special in his own right and spend focused time with him. But sometimes things blow up, and we have to deal with it. He’s had to grow up so fast. He’s had to see things that are pretty scary. I don’t know how someone his age processes his older brother screaming and stomping and banging his head, but it has to be terrifying. We talk about things regularly, but still. It’s so hard.

We get no respite or help. We grab what advice and help we can from professionals, but we can only afford so much of that. We have begged and pleaded. We were told we can only get government assistance for our son right now if we threaten to hurt him.

Trump has threatened to take away all of his education rights.

Trump has threatened to take away what pre-existing condition coverage we currently rely on.

Trump’s plans would destroy any chance of him ever getting a Medicaid Waiver for help now and funding that might let him have independence later.

Trump would leave us and him on our own.

Trump’s plans would destroy his future.

And worst of all, Trump has made it OK to bully and mock my son. Those who support him are saying it’s OK, too. They have created a culture in which kids see it’s OK to bully. And if you’d ever meet my son, he has so many of the outward, stereotypical behaviors of an autistic child. You might as well paint a big bullseye on his back that says “bully me”. He would have no way to defend himself. He wouldn’t even understand what is going on. I am terrified every day for him.

The biggest stab in the back are all the Trump supporters in my family who say they love our son. They know how desperate things are for him and for us. They know what Trump has done. They know what his policies will mean to my son and to our family. They know it endangers his present and his future. And yet, they voted for him anyway.

I feel utterly betrayed.

I never expected them to vote for Hillary. That would have been a bridge too far. But they could have left it blank or written in one of the uncles or something. Anything but this.

For his whole life, they have been about the only lifeline we have. In emergencies, they have helped us many, many times. Honestly, they are the only semblance of a support system we have if things go to pieces.

Our younger son adores them. He knows we like Clinton, so like many kids he likes who his parents like. I’ve talked with him a lot about how government works and how sacred voting is and how so many have sacrificed so that we might have that freedom to vote. We’ve talked about the Constitution and Amendments, suffrage and slavery, and so much of what I want my child to grow up knowing about. I want him to believe in our democracy. I want him to believe it works.

I haven’t told him a thing about why Trump is a cruel, heartless **** because he’s a brilliant kid for his age. He will know the people he loves voted for Trump, the man who mocked his brother and all who have certain challenges, and it will break his heart. But someday he will learn. I can’t keep him from knowing forever. Someday his heart will break. It’s a terrible thing to suddenly learn the people you love aren’t who you thought they were.

No matter what happens tomorrow, my family will be left with broken pieces that we might never be able to put together again. We have always put family before differences - and believe me we’ve had lots of differences - but this is different. This is saying that my son doesn’t deserve respect, that he is a second-class citizen, that he doesn’t deserve a chance at a better future, that my family doesn’t deserve help. I feel like we no longer matter.

Yes, this election has divided America in ways that might take us a long time to recover from. But it has also crushed families in ways we may never recover from. I want to believe there is a way forward. I want to believe there is a way to heal all the wounds that have been inflicted. But right now I can’t.

Right now, I am simply heartbroken.

Make sure Trump stays in his 757.


He also complained, as he often does, of Obama’s use of the Boeing 747 that is primarily used as Air Force One and how wasteful it is. Trump over the years and over this campaign has made it clear how fond he is of his own Boeing 757. In an interview with Rolling Stone last year, he even ― incorrectly ― claimed it was larger than Air Force One.

757-300 Length 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m) Wingspan 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
747-200B Length 231 ft 10 in (70.6 m) Wingspan 195 ft 8 in (59.6 m)

The New York Times reported this week that seeing the much larger aircraft parked near his own in Miami angered Trump to the point of his insisting on an insulting tweet, which his press aide softened before hitting send.

Get Trump a beer to cry in.

“Let me tell you,” he said, dismissing supporters who have credited him with leading a movement win or lose,”If I don’t win, I will consider it a tremendous waste of time, energy, and money.” he said before falsely claiming that he will have spent more than $100 million of his own money on his campaign.

Trump then repeated his false claim that he will have spent more than $100 million of his own money on his campaign. But a late October Federal Election Commission filing showed Trump was still $40 million short of that figure.

Did you have "the talk" yet Todd? It may be too late.

I've red your open and personal story and to be honest you broke my heart too.

I know there are people who have sometimes so much circumstances and life-events working against them.
But reading your story here on the forum, shocks me deeply and makes me desperately searching for comforting words.

But I can't find them, they are not there.

I can only say (but that's easy for me as an outstander) try not to blame your family too much. I completely share your feelings of treason.
But try to be honest to them and show your feeling to them on a non-accusing way. Maybe you all can still find each other...

I wish you and your family all the strenght and courage which you need these coming days.

Know that via this forum, there are people on the other side of the ocean which have taken you and your family in their heart.

I'm sorry Ronald. The story was posted on another forum I follow. It seemed appropriate for this one. I'll add your response to the other forum's replies.

I've got my own story about my step-son who was born with a laundry list of problems. He's an adult now but my wife and I worry about his support system and whether it will still be there if Trump wins.

Thank you for your heart felt reply.

o.k. I missed the metaphorical quality of your story.

This is internet......

I just got back from the only polling place in West Maui. In the years I've live here it's been a ghost town. West Maui is known for having the worst turnout in the state. Not this year.

The left turn lane was backed up at least four light cycles. I did an illegal left turn through the police station. It took ten minutes to get to the first table where they verify you're legal. Another ten minutes to get to where they hand out the ballots. And still another ten minutes to get a booth.

While waiting for a booth I commented to a poll worker that it appeared to be a good turnout. He replied, "I've been doing this for forty years. I've never seen it like this." And that's with a record 24,000 absentee and early voting island wide.

It looks like cranks bring out the vote.

The Trump women probably had "the talk" but it doesn't hurt to confirm they were listening.

TRUMP WINS!!!!!! TRUMP WINS!!!!!!

I was a deplorable until it became cool!!

You're still deplorable Bob, just because something becomes mainstream doesn't change what it is. Being a bigot will never be cool.

+1

...and the losing continues. How's your 401k looking this morning? Why does the "businessman" win, and the markets panic? We're screwed...

Just so you're not confused, I'm thrilled that Hillary lost, just wish we had a better option than Trump.

I just hope we're not looking at a rematch in four years, or worse (possibly more likely), Elizabeth Warren poking her nose into the ring.

Oh, and just when I thought I couldn't possibly have less respect for Hillary, she hides away and doesn't publicly concede. After mocking Trump when he said he'd contest a close loss. What a piece of work.

Mike

Congratulations to President-Elect Gregory Ammas Stillson. Where was Johnny Smith when we needed him?

whut? She conceded with a phone call to Trump at 2:30am and gave a gracious unifying speech this afternoon. Not sure where the problem is.

Hopefully, you're kidding Jake.

She didn't publicly concede and congratulate her opponent until the next day. That's pretty weak, at the very least for the untold thousands of people who worked on her campaign.

Normally, the loser publicly concedes before the winner accepts.

Maybe she was just getting a head start on prepping for the rematch.

Mike

You sound a bit like the NYT blathering fool, Ex-Enron advisor Paul Krugman (I know, only incidentally - you're not a fool Mike) --
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...Body&action=click&pgtype=article

"Still, I guess people want an answer: If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never."

Dow Jones Industrial Average
INDEXDJX: .DJI - Nov 9, 1:57 PM EST
18,548.97Price increase216.23 (1.18%)

S&P 500 Index
INDEXCBOE: .INX - Nov 9, 1:57 PM EST
2,160.34Price increase20.78 (0.97%)

Index Value Change Net / %
NASDAQ 5231.43
37.94 ▲ 0.73%


Also, the Clinton Foundation issued a brief statement regarding the election results: "No Refunds"

Talk about splitting hairs. Trump had ALREADY filed lawsuits to contest elements of the election before it practically began and you're upset because Clinton delayed making her public speech until the next morning? She didn't deny anything, didn't discount the result, she didn't do anything but make a positive, rebuilding, concession speech. I'm pretty sure you would find a way to be upset about anything she did because if that riles you up, wow.

So I did a little research and you're right, the concession speech usually precedes the victory speech. Typically, however, the victory speech waits until the concession speech takes place and usually falls about an hour later. For instance, in 2004, Kerry waited until late into the next day in order to contest a close vote in Ohio. He delivered his concession speech at 3pm and W gave his victory speech an hour later. No concession speeches have take place after 1am since 1992 so, at some point, you have to wonder if it's just too late at 3am and might as well wait until the next morning...but whatever, man..I'm still not sure how that timing affects anything. Maybe we ask why Donald went ahead and did his victory speech before the concession but, while I can guess at what his opinion might have been on the topic, I really don't care. It's over, I personally felt like the speeches and outreach by everyone involved was gracious and healing and I don't see how the minutia of the timing affects any single important thing.

I'm just glad the hate filled speech has been given a rest for the moment.

As the OP,

I want to Thank Obama and The Clintons,

Without their disaster and corruption,
there is NO Way in Hell Trump would have ever won!

People are fed up with the BS- ya think?

Wait until Trump hits Federal Court November 28. It should be quite a show.

I work directly on international trade and business development deals. To say first world nations are "concerned" is an understatement.

Not that they are predicting clamity; rather "uncertainty" which in the short term is much more disastrous. Several multi-national deals which would actually (gasp) create jobs (or at least wealth - unfortunately, not much of my own) have been on hold since the rumors of Brexit. Now this train-wreck of an election...

But now that part of the uncertainty is dealt with (we have a president-elect), the cabinet appointments will be the next trigger. Foreign trade policy is much more time consuming to unwravel, which might allow markets to recover somewhat.

Our next move on foreign policy (do we shift alliances?) will affect a great number of moving parts (namely, foreign investment & trade) with certain economies (euro, asian, and even indian or eastern euro).

What has this to do with Joe the Plumber? Pretty much nothing. Joe likely doesn't have retirement savings or investments, and people's toilets will still clog regardless of their 401(k) balance.

Joe's challenge toward middle class growth will be his chops (or lack thereof) to grow his business. Joe can only fix so many pipes in one day. Business acumen, marketing skill, and staff development are his keys to success. Can he excel? The free-market will tell.

A business mentor once shared that she was happy to pay taxes because it meant that the company had earned money. She built a two person business into a 600 employee staffing firm and retired at 50 with a 85' motoryacht as a retirement gift. Last I heard she was in the Med. enjoying her late 60's.

I also knew several business competitors that never got past a meager staff.

What was her edge? It's not like that industry is particle physics.

She did call Trump. The problem is that she was too chicken **** to address all her supporters at the end. If I was her supporter and waited till 3am for final results and was told by someone else that we lost, go home. I would be PISSED. They deserved more than that.

Quite possibly so, and I'd share your feeling on that. But having your entire future crushed before your eyes and then having to stand up and present your scabbard to the victor while announcing to the masses that you're back to square one takes a little focus.

I would probably have waited that long to deliver my concession speech, too. If only to have enough composure to NOT drop the "F" bomb during my talk

Did you listen to Clinon's concession speech? Sounded to me like she couldn't put it down and had to make one last stab at Trump...

In looking at the riots in Seattle and Berkeley... I think the Hate is just started.

So First World- several peoples post election comments

now that the fog has cleared a bit, I didn't see more than maybe 6 younger voters (under 30) yesterday at my polling station. We logged over 1,400 voters.

I guess millennial apathy can be a benefit sometimes... To paraphrase Ding "Old angry dudes rule!"

The markets rebounded after some serious futures drops overnight. And yes, I know that it was fueled by uncertainty if nothing else.

You guys mainly missed my point: they both suck, and we're the ultimate losers. Admittedly, I guess I spewed more disgust in Hillary's direction, sorry if that misled you.

My only hope is that they start working collaboratively in DC, but I'm not going to hold my breath (THAT would be foolish...).

Mike

The common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
---H.L. Mencken

Maybe the only way for Americans to really, truly understand how toxic, wrong-headed and futile Trump’s policies are is to let him provide proof of concept. That is, to give us Trumpism, good and hard. Maybe the only way to prove that Trump can’t bring back manufacturing jobs, or coal jobs, or other jobs displaced by technology and productivity gains, is to let him try to do so through his ill-advised tariffs.

With Republicans dominating both houses of Congress, Trump should have little trouble transforming his many harebrained, math-challenged policy schemes into law, assuming he’s ever able to commit them to paper. With time, his economically anxious followers will realize that even after the swamp is drained and the bums thrown out, tough-talking Trump is still unable to improve their economic standing. When his policies turn out to be a bust, he'll blame the results on President Obama or other political enemies, or distrusted ethnic groups. There is so many to be used as scapegoats. Or, he may deny the negative outcomes entirely given that he and his followers are prone to producing their own sets of facts and data.

So, good luck dummies. Pretend you've lived in Kansas the last few years and love to keep bending over. BOHICA!

I watched her speech today, I thought it was plenty gracious and appropriate given the situation.

I was expecting them to give their supporters something last night, and I think I would have been disappointed had I been at her HQ. However it was pretty late to try to address the nation. Not too many of the people I spoke with today stayed up till 3am, a decision I regret today.

OK, actions on the streets now, and who is the deplorable crowd?

Bigot, "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."

Of course you tolerate everyone and everything, right?

Dude, you live in Naples that's where people go to die. Of course there wasn't any millennial's there!

You got me, I'm intolerant of bigotry! Never thought a lot of you but I couldn't put my finger on it, it makes sense now.

Garrison Keillor checks in:

So he won. The nation takes a deep breath. Raw ego and proud illiteracy have won out, and a severely learning-disabled man with a real character problem will be president. We are so exhausted from thinking about this election, millions of people will take up leaf-raking and garage cleaning with intense pleasure. We liberal elitists are wrecks. The Trumpers had a whale of a good time, waving their signs, jeering at the media, beating up protesters, chanting “Lock her up” — we elitists just stood and clapped. Nobody chanted “Stronger Together.” It just doesn’t chant.

The Trumpers never expected their guy to actually win the thing, and that’s their problem now. They wanted only to whoop and yell, boo at the H-word, wear profane T-shirts, maybe grab a crotch or two, jump in the RV with a couple of six-packs and go out and shoot some spotted owls. It was pleasure enough for them just to know that they were driving us wild with dismay — by “us,” I mean librarians, children’s authors, yoga practitioners, Unitarians, bird-watchers, people who make their own pasta, opera-goers, the grammar police, people who keep books on their shelves, that bunch. The Trumpers exulted in knowing we were tearing our hair out. They had our number, like a bratty kid who knows exactly how to make you grit your teeth and froth at the mouth.

Alas for the Trump voters, the disasters he will bring on this country will fall more heavily on them than anyone else. The uneducated white males who elected him are the vulnerable ones, and they will not like what happens next.

To all the patronizing B.S. we’ve read about Trump expressing the white working-class’s displacement and loss of the American Dream, I say, “Feh!” — go put your head under cold water. Resentment is no excuse for bald-faced stupidity. America is still the land where the waitress’s kids can grow up to become physicists and novelists and pediatricians, but it helps a lot if the waitress and her husband encourage good habits and the ambition to use your God-given talents and the kids aren’t plugged into electronics day and night. Whooping it up for the candidate of cruelty and ignorance does less than nothing for your kids.

We liberal elitists are now completely in the clear. The government is in Republican hands. Let them deal with him. Democrats can spend four years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses.

I like Republicans. I used to spend Sunday afternoons with a bunch of them, drinking Scotch and soda and trying to care about NFL football. It was fun. I tried to think like them. (Life is what you make it. People are people. When the going gets tough, tough noogies.) But I came back to liberal elitism.

Don’t be cruel. Elvis said it, and it’s true. We all experienced cruelty back in our playground days — boys who beat up on the timid, girls who made fun of the homely and naive — and most of us, to our shame, went along with it, afraid to defend the victims lest we become one of them. But by your 20s, you should be done with cruelty. Mr. Trump was the cruelest candidate since George Wallace. How he won on fear and bile is for political pathologists to study. The country is already tired of his noise, even his own voters. He is likely to become the most intensely disliked president since Herbert Hoover. His children will carry the burden of his name. He will never be happy in his own skin. But the damage he will do to our country — who knows? His supporters voted for change, and boy, are they going to get it.

Back to real life. I went up to my home town the other day and ran into my gym teacher, Stan Nelson, looking good at 96. He commanded a landing craft at Normandy on June 6, 1944, and never said a word about it back then, just made us do chin-ups whether we wanted to or not. I saw my biology teacher Lyle Bradley, a Marine pilot in the Korean War, still going bird-watching in his 90s. I was not a good student then, but I am studying both of them now. They have seen it all and are still optimistic. The past year of politics has taught us absolutely nothing. Zilch. Zero. Nada. The future is scary. Let the uneducated have their day. I am now going to pay more attention to teachers.

David Horsey checks in:

There is a good reason that Donald Trump failed to win the endorsement of a single serious newspaper (the Ku Klux Klan “Crusader” does not count). It is not because the press is uniformly liberal; there were plenty of traditionally Republican and conservative editorial boards that could not bring themselves to support Trump. It is because people who work on newspapers deal in facts, and the fact is that the president-elect is woefully unprepared for the office he has won.

That is the core reason I have been so critical of Trump and will continue to be.

This is not a knee-jerk aversion to any and all Republicans (I used to be one myself). If George H.W. Bush had beaten Bill Clinton back in 1992, I would not have worried that the country was in dangerous hands. Bush the elder, besides being a complete gentleman, was a seasoned practitioner of statecraft. If Sen. John McCain had won in 2008 or Mitt Romney in 2012, I would have been disappointed, but I would not have thought the election of either man would be perilous for us all (although having Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency would not have been reassuring).

It is Trump who is uniquely scary, not because he is a Republican and not because of his personal demerits. The nation can survive a president with a record of using women as sexual toys (Trump will not be the first). The nation can survive a president who is rude and bullying. The nation can even survive a con man. But it will be much harder to steer clear of harm with a president who seems to have no idea how little he really knows about very important things.

For all his experience as a businessman, his ideas about economics are neanderthal. Those who actually understand the intricacies of the global market fear he will provoke a disastrous trade war if he follows through on his threats to tear up trade deals and slap high taxes on imports.

His fantastical promises to bring back jobs in the coal mines and manufacturing plants were further proof of his dim-bulbed grasp of economic realities. Yes, those promises raised hopes and won him votes in the Rust Belt states — and probably won him the election. But he was fooling those voters and probably fooling himself. Global competition is the force that diminished the old industries and no new trade deal will change that reality. Manufacturing may well rebound in this country, but it will be built on robots and automation. The high numbers of jobs that once provided a middle-class lifestyle for men without a college degree will never come back.

In the final days of the campaign, Trump repeatedly mocked U.S. military leaders for announcing in advance their plans to retake regions of Iraq held by Islamic State militants. “Whatever happened to the element of surprise?” Trump asked repeatedly, as if war were a game of hide-and-seek. Letting Islamic State leaders know the attack was coming gave them a chance to run away, Trump said. Military strategists responded by pointing out that Islamic State commanders on the run actually made much better targets and that was just one of several good reasons to broadcast intentions.

Trump is no military genius, although he has famously claimed to know more than the generals. If he carries that delusion with him into the White House, it could lead to catastrophe. So could his failure to understand the immense value of the NATO alliance. So could his simple-minded admiration of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Low-information voters have given us a low-information president. Trump’s lack of sophistication and his apparent disinterest in doing the hard work it takes to understand the complexities of economics, international relations and military strategy is the most alarming aspect of his looming presidency. His character flaws and reactionary tendencies are hardly insignificant, but his willful ignorance of vital knowledge is what may make him the world’s most dangerous man.

I always thought it was an odd stance to take the moral high ground. "I'm super tolerant, but not of you because you're intolerant of ___________"

George Carlin had the best line about political correctness. I've used it a few times. “Political correctness is America’s newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people’s language with strict codes and rigid rules. I’m not sure that’s the way to fight discrimination. I’m not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”


On my front, if you hate me because I'm part towel head, or part kraut, or part square head, or part whatever, good for you! Everyone needs something.

I got you on that point...

As much as I would like to see what a "woman" president could do, I didn't really want THAT woman up on the podium. Someone suggested Oprah could get the votes and sweep an election... That gave me pause...

But she could probably pay off the deficit with her checkbook... "You get a tax break, You get a tax break, You get a tax break....."

Aaron Sorkin checks in:

As this is a long, well written letter Todd. You may have trouble reading it to the end. Here's some key words and phrases.

incompetent pig, The Klan won last night, White nationalists, Sexists, racists and buffoons, misogynistic shitheads, Abject dumbness was glamorized, Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.

There's a lot more Todd. See if you can get through to the end. Jolt Cola might help.


Sorkin Girls,

Well the world changed late last night in a way I couldn’t protect us from. That’s a terrible feeling for a father. I won’t sugarcoat it—this is truly horrible. It’s hardly the first time my candidate didn’t win (in fact it’s the sixth time) but it is the first time that a thoroughly incompetent pig with dangerous ideas, a serious psychiatric disorder, no knowledge of the world and no curiosity to learn has.

And it wasn’t just Donald Trump who won last night—it was his supporters too. The Klan won last night. White nationalists. Sexists, racists and buffoons. Angry young white men who think rap music and Cinco de Mayo are a threat to their way of life (or are the reason for their way of life) have been given cause to celebrate. Men who have no right to call themselves that and who think that women who aspire to more than looking hot are shrill, ugly, and otherwise worthy of our scorn rather than our admiration struck a blow for misogynistic shitheads everywhere. Hate was given hope. Abject dumbness was glamorized as being “the fresh voice of an outsider” who’s going to “shake things up.” (Did anyone bother to ask how? Is he going to re-arrange the chairs in the Roosevelt Room?) For the next four years, the President of the United States, the same office held by Washington and Jefferson, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, F.D.R., J.F.K. and Barack Obama, will be held by a man-boy who’ll spend his hours exacting Twitter vengeance against all who criticize him (and those numbers will be legion). We’ve embarrassed ourselves in front of our children and the world.

And the world took no time to react. The Dow futures dropped 700 points overnight. Economists are predicting a deep and prolonged recession. Our NATO allies are in a state of legitimate fear. And speaking of fear, Muslim-Americans, Mexican-Americans and African-Americans are shaking in their shoes. And we’d be right to note that many of Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. On the other hand, there is a party going on at ISIS headquarters. What wouldn’t we give to trade this small fraction of a man for Richard Nixon right now?

So what do we do?

First of all, we remember that we’re not alone. A hundred million people in America and a billion more around the world feel exactly the same way we do.

Second, we get out of bed. The Trumpsters want to see people like us (Jewish, “coastal elites,” educated, socially progressive, Hollywood…) sobbing and wailing and talking about moving to Canada. I won’t give them that and neither will you. Here’s what we’ll do…

…we’ll ****ing fight. (Roxy, there’s a time for this kind of language and it’s now.) We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. We don’t have majorities in the House or Senate but we do have representatives there. It’s also good to remember that most members of Trump’s own party feel exactly the same way about him that we do. We make sure that the people we sent to Washington—including Kamala Harris—take our strength with them and never take a day off.

We get involved. We do what we can to fight injustice anywhere we see it—whether it’s writing a check or rolling up our sleeves. Our family is fairly insulated from the effects of a Trump presidency so we fight for the families that aren’t. We fight for a woman to keep her right to choose. We fight for the First Amendment and we fight mostly for equality—not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities. We stand up.

America didn’t stop being America last night and we didn’t stop being Americans and here’s the thing about Americans: Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.

Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.

The battle isn’t over, it’s just begun. Grandpa fought in World War II and when he came home this country handed him an opportunity to make a great life for his family. I will not hand his granddaughter a country shaped by hateful and stupid men. Your tears last night woke me up, and I’ll never go to sleep on you again.

Love,

Dad

No surprise here.

From the LA Times...

One of the largest Ku Klux Klan groups in the country has announced a parade to celebrate President-elect Donald Trump's win.

The Loyal White Knights of Pelham, N.C., says on its website that its parade will take place on Dec. 3.

"TRUMP = TRUMP'S RACE UNITED MY PEOPLE," says the website's front page.

No time or location for the event is listed, and a phone call to the number on its website was not returned.

The group has between 150 and 200 members and is "perhaps the most active Klan group in the United States today," according to the Anti-Defamation League. Last year, it was part of a South Carolina protest against the Confederate flag's removal from the state Capitol.

Several Klan groups endorsed Trump. Well-known former Klan leader David Duke, who on Tuesday lost a Senate bid in Louisiana, was also a vocal supporter.

The election is over.

It is Trump for the next four (8 possibly) years. Interesting times, and I hope they will be good.

Mike. Time to move on. The current emotional and quite hateful displays of childish rage is plain pointless.


Norwegian politicians are already sending ouvertures of friendship and cooperation to the new administration - while looking at how to increase the national defense budget..




Again - interesting times..

David Horsey checks in:



I’m sure thousands of bottles of Budweiser will be raised tonight in those white, working-class neighborhoods of the upper Midwest that put Donald Trump over the top in the electoral college. You folks should enjoy your moment and don’t trouble yourselves with the thought that plenty of celebratory champagne is being poured in corporate board rooms, country clubs and in the spacious mansions of hedge fund managers.

Thanks to your votes, Mr. and Mrs. White Working Class, all those rich people will soon get a massive tax increase and relief from the environmental regulations that have kept them from polluting your air and water and from the financial oversight that has restrained them from milking every last penny from their employees and the victims of their big-money schemes.

Yes, congratulations. At the same moment you elected a billionaire who claimed he would drain the special interest “swamp” in Washington, you kept in power insiders such as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, one of the biggest snakes in the swamp, plus all the other Republicans in Congress who have fought to keep the mighty flow of corporate dollars streaming in.

You think you have struck a blow against the “elites” on the coasts who look down on “real Americans” in the heartland. You say you have been forgotten or misunderstood by the powers that be. That may be true. But I must say that those of you who act as if you are the only ones in the country who work hard, care for your families and love your country are pretty damn elitist, as well.

I look around at my friends and neighbors here on the West Coast and I see lots of patriotic people who put in long hours of labor to put food on the table and put their kids through school.

There is Keith, a guy with whom I recently got acquainted when we discovered our common affinity for good drinks, good ribs and good jazz. Keith is a muscular black man who would likely be subject to unfair and unfriendly scrutiny from the local sheriff if he showed up in a small Midwestern town, but forget the stereotype. Keith had a career in the Marines before taking a job managing security for Hollywood celebrities. In his free time, he works to help the homeless in downtown Los Angeles.

There is the Korean family that runs the laundry down the street from my apartment who never seem to take a vacation or even a day off. There are the Latino men I see laboring every day in the Southern California heat cutting lawns and repairing houses. There are the men of every race I pass by on my way to work who are hauling steel, handling jackhammers, driving trucks and raising girders as they build new subway lines and raise up towering skyscrapers.

And there are my colleagues in the newsroom, both the seasoned veterans of the news business and the charged-up millennials. There’s nothing elite about them, unless being able to spell and use proper grammar are now elite attributes. The men and women around me are working harder than ever for wages that are not rising in an industry threatened by rapid change. Sound familiar?

Most of us here do not live in Beverly Hills. We live in more modest places such as Pasadena, East Los Angeles, Inglewood and Long Beach. Of course, the working class here is a lot more brown than where you might live. They sweat just as hard, though, and put in long hours just like you — maybe longer, and maybe for less money. But you have not done them a favor by electing a guy who threatens to start a trade war based on an illusion. The illusion is that if America cuts itself off from the global market, all those manufacturing jobs your fathers once had will come flooding back. It won’t happen. The robots have taken over the assembly lines. But what a disruption in trade would do is shut down the West Coast ports and, according to expert estimates, kill more than 600,000 working-class jobs in California.

I know you didn’t think about that sort of effect when you cast your protest vote to Make America Great Again, but what exactly were you thinking? Whenever one of you was interviewed by a TV reporter all I heard was you parroting the vague generalities being spouted by your candidate: America doesn’t win anymore; we need a wall to keep out immigrants; political correctness sucks.

I didn’t hear any of you say you were happy with the longer droughts, bigger storms and more vicious wildfires that are devastating farms, ranches and rural communities. But your new president has promised to rip up the international treaty that might mitigate some of the extreme weather caused by climate change.

I didn’t hear any of you say you were tired of the peace and order created by the NATO alliance and would rather have a cozier relationship with the Russians. But you just elected a man who has denigrated NATO and has warm and fuzzy feelings about Vladimir Putin.

I did hear plenty of you say you hated big government, but is that because you are someone who got fined by the EPA because your industrial plant was poisoning a river? Or because you are a rancher who doesn’t want to pay grazing fees when you exploit publicly owned land? Or because you are a farmer who doesn’t want to admit that government price supports are what keep your business viable?

Does your hatred of government mean you voted for more pollution? With your vote, were you demanding that big banks be set free to run the economy into the ground? Were you eager for less consumer protection? Did you insist that more of the tax burden be put on average Americans and less of it on the super-rich? I hope those are the things you wanted because that is what you will get from a Republican Congress and a Republican president.

Do I sound angry? That is because I am. I’m mad because your misguided hissy fit is messing with the country I love. I am as much a patriot as you are. I choke up when I visit the Lincoln Memorial or the graves of the Kennedys. I love the flag and do not cringe from the Pledge of Allegiance. When I ride a horse across open country, I feel a link with all my ancestors — the first of whom arrived on the Maryland shore in the 1640s. Those family members who came before me slowly made their way West, generation after generation, until they finally found a home within sight of the Pacific. I am about as “real” an American as you can get.

But I am fed up with those of you who think there is only one way to be American. Some of the truest Americans I have met are among those whose ancestors came here in slave ships. Some of the Americans who give me the most hope are the children of parents who slipped across the border in search of a better life; young dreamers working hard for an education and a chance to contribute to our society. Some of the Americans I admire the most are like my friend Jack who left the narrow-mindedness of his home state and came West to Los Angeles, where he met and married the man he loved. America is great because it has room for all these people and more.

If, ultimately, the real reason you voted for Trump was because he promised to start shutting doors that have been opened for people who do not fit a narrow definition of American, you should understand you are in for a fight. It’s now my turn to say it: I want my country back.

Sorry brah, it is time to fight. Read the above by Horsey. I'll go with his closing, "I want my country back."

That's right, let the fight begin... has one asking; who are the real hate mongers here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=GfJenokrmb4

Let him rage on, it is all he has in life.. He is the textbook example of _________________

Well Mike, good luck with that.

I dont see how this will improve anything at all for democrats or liberals though. Quite the opposite really, in my opinion.

Well well.

I'll see your high schoolers and raise you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9amHnjkM44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVvb5_rMGyY Political combat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeYTpzz6pxs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFqW_2G-wqM Why would you wear the hat Kunt-n-Paste?

Got an answer yet Schwartz?

^^^^^^^^^^^

Inciting violence to swing an election... now now Mikie... The good Doktor Geobbels would be very proud of DNC....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Just think, wouldn't it have been a total shocker if Hillary got elected and a week after the inauguration, the US Capitol blew up, the republicans get blamed, and marshal law is declared... and place like Manzanar, Mendoka, Tuel River, and Toaz start popping back up...

Of course we wouldn't call them concentration camps... now would we? More so something in the lines of Gestalt Centers.... Better brush of your Koffka and Köhler text there Mikie... the party needs you now more than ever....

Donald Trump's victory followed by wave of hate crime attacks

In Los Angeles, hate crimes against Latinos had increased by 69 percent

Robbery of a Muslim student at San Diego State University by two men who “made comments about President-elect Donald Trump and the Muslim community”, before stealing her purse, rucksack and car.
______________

Maha Abdul Gawad said she was shopping in a local Wallmart on Wednesday when another woman approached, pulled off her hijab and said: “This is not allowed anymore, so go hang yourself with it around your neck not on your head.”
____________

“We have two kids wearing Trump shirts pull a hijab off a Muslim girl today at school. OSS [out-of-school suspension] for five days. “When asked why? ‘Because she’s about to get kicked out anyway and we won.’”
________________

A woman in Delaware described overhearing four white men near her at a petrol station discussing Mr Trump’s victory and “how they’re glad they won’t have to deal with n*****s much longer”.

“One walked over to me and said ‘how scared are you, you black b****? I should just kill you right now, you’re a waste of air’,” she wrote.

“Then another guy steps forward and shows me his firearm. He says: ‘You’re lucky there’s witnesses or else I’d shoot you right here.’ I have called the police.”
__________________

Natasha, a student from the Christian Baylor University in Texas, said she was walking home from a class when a man shoved her off the pavement.

“He said ‘no n*****s allowed on the sidewalk’. I was shocked, I had no words,” she said in a video posted on social media.

“Another guy said ‘dude, what are you doing? That’s not cool’. The guy said: ‘I’m just trying to Make America Great Again’.”
_________________

“As they sped their truck up on me, they rolled their window down and yelled: ‘F*** you n***** b****,” she wrote.

“Trump is going to deport you back to Africa'. In my 33 years of live, I’ve never had blatant racism shown to me than in that moment.”
___________________

‘I can’t wait until Trump asks us to rape your people and send you back over the biggest damn wall we’re going to build. Go back to hell, wet back’.

“After saying all of that, he threw the water in his cup in my face, gave me the middle finger, and ran off.
______________

Real cute huh Schwartz? Being a goat roper should give you plenty of license to Make America Great Again with a little A&B or theft. Put on your favorite **** killers and trophy belt, set your pickemup truck to rolling coal and make America safe again. You can do it Kunt-n-Paste!

post deleted

Now now Mikie.. lets get the facts right here... I am sure there was no mention of the Mexican Mafia in the article that reported these facts...



You're getting very boring....

I believe most of it is false anyway... Unless of course there is a video to substantiate the claim... everyone has video right???

To which I say; bring it wispy.

I think trump is a ****ing fool, but the alternative would've been so much worse.

I stand by my the election is rigged stance too.

Not convinced Schwartz? Here's some more...

Countless Acts Of Hate Carried Out Since Trump’s Win

One of the comments reads, "When you shine a light on rats, they run away. Show every incident of hate. Let the Trump voters see what they have done."

Wear your best Cool Dude Sunglasses Kunt-n-Paste.

Is your wife on loose Schwartz? A few too many Jäger bombs maybe?

Come on Mikie.. this is all hearsay Tweets on Twitter by twits..

Those same twits are using Twitter to Tweet assassination threats... gee now there are some real Phi Betta Kappa rocket surgeons for ya!

http://nypost.com/2016/11/11/assass...mp-flood-twitter-after-election-shocker/

What else ya got...

Hey Mike,

You want to take jabs and barbs at me go ahead... don't bring my family into it..

You have my respect to keep your wife and kids out it, I would appreciate the same... If you can't do that, then lets end the fun

For now, you're back on ignore....

Summed up in five minutes... and Mike, please pay attention to the last 45 seconds.... or at the least, the last 5 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d9lm-T87AQ

I'm so sorry Schwartz. I forgot that, unless it appears on Faux News, it's just not true.

Gosh Schwartz, you and the rest of the dummies had no problem with Chumlee bringing my wife in thanks to K-Lube spilling his guts. But, as it turned out, Chumlee had named his favorite appendage for polishing the Bishop's knob. Why would he discuss that in polite company?

Grow your own pair and fight your own battles. JFC, you can't make this up!

I would Carl but I'm too, too depressed.

Just got a note on how Dems should conduct themselves over the next four years.


The election is over and all reasonable Democrats need to move on in the interest of the country. We need to accept and support President Trump’s mandate. It is clearly ungracious to take to the streets to protest the results of a democratic election. So, no time for sour grapes, I suggest the following:

1) We should encourage our elected representatives to extend the SAME consideration to President Trump as was accorded by our Republican breathren to President Obama.

2) We should advise our Senators and Representatives NOT to scrutinize President Trump’s business dealings with any less vigor than that which was used during President Clinton’s Whitewater investigation.

3) Naturally we would suggest that Democrat’s NOT pursue allegations of sexual impropriety with any less zest than was applied during the Monica Lewinsky and Paula Jones cases.

No doubt, if our elected representatives follow these guidelines, we can expect President Trump to achieve his expected destiny for the good of the American people.

What say you all?


Well, what say you all?

Mike,
Come on over to the 'logical, correct side',
you'll feel a lot better. Take a deep breath, .........exhale, there, that's better

Muslim teacher receives anonymous note about headscarf: ‘Hang yourself’

"Dear Americans,

Go ahead, vote for the guy with the loud voice who hates minorities, threatens to imprison his opponents, doesn't give a kiss about democracy, and claims he alone can fix everything. What could possibly go wrong.

Good luck.

- The people of Germany

#beentheredonethat

UM student wearing hijab threatened to be lit on fire

Donald Trump on Sunday told his supporters to stop harassing minorities, in his first televised sit-down interview since becoming President-elect.

"I am so saddened to hear that," Trump told CBS' Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes" when she said Latinos and Muslims are facing harassment. "And I say, 'Stop it.' If it -- if it helps, I will say this, and I will say right to the cameras: 'Stop it.'"

Trump directed his comments to his own supporters whom Stahl said have written racist slogans or chanted degrading messages -- particularly in schools. It was a powerful appeal to a nation ripped apart by the divisive 2016 campaign. Trump's election has left Democrats angry and many minorities fearful about the future.


What else ya got Schwartz?

What do you make of this Schwantz?


Have you ever seen someone being publicly harassed by haters? I hadn’t...before this week. Looks like I’ll have to get better prepared for dealing with it.

Thursday night after work I stopped to get gas at a busy intersection. Earlier in the day I had listened to an elderly Jewish woman whose family escaped the Holocaust when she was 6 years old tell me her fears about the election results, about how history seemed to be repeating itself. I had just finished a diary recalling Mom’s wisdom: “This, too, shall pass.” I pulled around to the open pump in front of a jacked-up big-wheel pick-up truck. As I swiped my debit card I heard yelling and saw a tall, skinny, hyped-up shaved-headed tattooed chain-bedecked shirtless young guy swaggering back to his truck where awaited another skinhead in the passenger seat. Oh, great. I turned away and started pumping gas, but the yelling intensified and had definitely taken on a threatening tone. I turned and looked again, and saw the tall skinhead now hurling invectives at a young brown man gassing up his beater Toyota across the way.

I moved to the back of my car, crossed my arms, and made eye contact with the young brown man, not sure what else to do but bear witness. I wanted to walk up to the two young tattooed chain-covered punks and scold them, but they seemed too out-of-control with rage and something else— Drugs? Alcohol? so I kept my distance but kept watching them, feeling helpless and somewhat cowardly. I didn’t want to get hurt. I am not a hero or a warrior. I didn’t want to escalate the situation.

The young brown man stood there impassively, watching the two thugs. I couldn’t make out the words they were screaming over their truck’s engine, but their intent was clear. The tall skinhead jumped back in his truck and gunned it, still yelling, and then spotted me, a 60 year-old professionally dressed white lady giving him the stink-eye. His truck suddenly lurched towards me and I thought, Well, there goes my car, as it looked like he was going to ram the back of it. As he narrowly swerved around my car he bellowed out the window at me:

“RAPE AND MURDER, BITCH! We’re free now, we can do anything we want! We’re free!”

So this guy will be one of the most powerful people in the US? Not very reassuring to be honest.

http://qz.com/836329/breitbart-head...-strategist-steve-bannon-sees-the-world/

Apologies Mike, but I thought the "time to fight" would have been BEFORE the election?

Since it appears there weren't enough people pulling levers to overwhelmingly approve a different candidate, I think the "fight" now would be more directly with your congressional representatives?

If you were too lazy to vote, then you shouldn't complain about what you "got".

But if it makes you feel better, toss all that internet crap out because that will CERTAINLY make everyone change their mind... (sarcasm) Everything I read on the internet must be true, of course...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and it's wonderful that we can conduct a healthy debate of issues (perhaps more effectively in person that on an electronic forum).

I for one am quite interested in what (if any) progress is made by the next administration toward the deficit, foreign policy, tax code changes, climate change and a host of other more state-centric issues.

But my perception of "progress" may be much different than yours. There are NEVER any easy (or simple) answers to the questions of governance, and spouting one just makes one appear simple or uninformed. I believe we all saw that during the debates.

Stay tuned... Cabinet appointees are coming. The rubber will hit the road (or not) soon enough!

The fight now is for 2018.

indeed....

There was a fight, and against all odds... Trump won! This fight election is over, and there are more coming up... now is the time to start.

But..... I think the next time around people are going to be looking at different sources for information... The media screwed this one up big time

http://www.people-press.org/2012/08...ity-ratings-for-most-news-organizations/

Like I said, I didn't vote for Trump... but it was a pleasure to watch Wolf Blitzer and Rachelle Maddow implode with PA was announced...

Best analogy of what just happened...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_rk5rp499Q

Still got questions Schwantz? There's a lot more answers.

"Like I said, I didn't vote for Trump..."

I expect we will be hearing that quite a lot as reality sets in.

Word.

Air Horn Guy Busted, Offered Job

El Segundo has been under attack by the Air Horn Guy for the last six weeks. He was finally busted at 4 AM this morning.

The praise poured onto El Segundo Police Department’s Facebook page from ecstatic residents.

“They found the air horn guy!!” wrote Jenn Birch.

Jennifer Phan wrote to another resident, “It was this idiot that’s been waking us up!”

According to police, Phan and other residents can now sleep easy.

On Sunday, patrol officers heard the blare of an actuated air horn — a device similar to a train horn — as it shattered the pre-dawn silence of El Segundo’s west side at about 4 a.m., police said on Facebook.

Officers looked around and saw only one car on the street — a little blue four-door, 2006 Chevrolet Aveo — and pulled it over, said Sgt. Vincent Martinez.

In the back of the car, officers found an air tank with hoses connected to a device near the car’s gas pedal, Martinez said. When an officer tried the car’s horn, the sound of “a big truck or train” blasted from the diminutive hatchback, he said.

John W. Nuggent, brother of Ted Nugent, admitted he was the man who for the last six weeks had been driving down the street in the middle of the night waking up residents.

Nuggent has been contacted by the DNC and offered a job sounding his horn outside the White House after Trump takes office. The thinking is Trump may believe it’s the 3 AM phone call.

Not surprisingly, he looks a lot like Todd.

'They found the air horn guy!!' El Segundo residents rejoice after driver with air horn arrested

Melissa Zimdars, an assistant professor of communication at Merrimack College in Massachusetts has put together a list cataloging false, misleading, clickbait-y and satirical 'news' sources. She has divided them into four categories. Category one and two should be avoided by anyone who wants to cleanse their newsfeeds of misinformation. This, of course, excludes Todd, Schwantz, Chumlee, Sparky and Carl.

CATEGORY 1: Below is a list of fake, false, or regularly misleading websites that are shared on Facebook and social media. Some of these websites may rely on “outrage” by using distorted headlines and decontextualized or dubious information in order to generate likes, shares, and profits. These websites are categorized with the number 1 next to them.

CATEGORY 2: Some websites on this list may circulate misleading and/or potentially unreliable information, and they are marked with a 2.

CATEGORY 3: Other websites on this list sometimes use clickbait-y headlines and social media descriptions, and they are marked with a 3.

CATEGORY 4: Other sources on this list are purposefully fake with the intent of satire/comedy, which can offer important critical commentary on politics and society, but have the potential to be shared as actual/literal news. I’m including them here, for now, because 1.) they have the potential to perpetuate misinformation based on different audience (mis)interpretations and 2.) to make sure anyone who reads a story by The Onion, for example, understands its purpose.



100PercentFedUp.com (2,3)
EnduringVision.com (1)
PakAlertPress.com
21stCenturyWire.com (2, 3)
FPRNradio.com
PoliticalBlindSpot.com
70news.wordpress.com (1)
The Free Thought Project (3)
PoliticalEars.com
Abcnews.com.co (1)
GeoEngineeringWatch.org
Politicalo (1)
ActivistPost.com (2, 3)
PoliticusUSA
Addicting Info (3)
GovtSlaves.info
PrisonPlanet.com
AmericanNews.com (1)
GulagBound.com
PrisonPlanet.tv
AnonNews.co (3)
HangTheBankers.com
Private-eye.co.uk (4)
Associated Media Coverage
HumansAreFree.com
ProjectVeritas
BeforeItsNews.com
Huzlers (4)
Being Liberal
IfYouOnlyNews
React 365
BigAmericanNews.com
Indecision Forever (1)
RealFarmacy.com
BigPZone.com
IJR (Independent Journal Review)
RealNewsRightNow.com (1, 4)
Bipartisan Report
InfoWars (1, 2)
RedFlagNews.com
BizPac Review
Infowars.com
Red State (3)
Blue Nation Review (2,3)
IntelliHub.com
Reductress (4)
Breitbart (3)
Inquisitor.com
RileNews.com (1, 4)
Cap News (4)
JonesReport.com
Satira Tribune
ChristWire.org (4)
LewRockwell.com
Sprotspickle.com (4)
Chronicle.su
Liberal America
The Blaze
CivicTribune.com (1)
LibertyTalk.fm
The Free Thought Project (3)
ClickHole.com (4)
LibertyUnyielding
Borowitz Report (4)
CoastToCoastAM.com (2)
LibertyVideos.org
The Onion (4)
CollectiveEvolution (3)
LMR/LibertyMovementRadio.com
The Other 98% (3)
ConsciousLifeNews.com (2)
MediaMass.net (1)
The Reporterz
ConservativeOutfitters.com (2)
MegynKelly.us (1)
The Stately Harold
ConspiracyWire (WideAwakeAmerica.com) (2)
MSNBC.com.co (1)
TheDailySheeple.com
CountdownToZeroTime.com (2)
MSNBC.website (1)
TheNewsNerd.com
CounterPsyOps.com
Naha Daily (4)
TheRunDownLive.com
National Report
TheUsPatriot.com
CreamBMP.com (1)
NationalReport.net (1)
TruthFrequencyRadio.com
DailyBuzzLive.com
NaturalNews.com
Twitchy.com (3)
DailyCurrant.com
NC Scooper
UnconfirmedSources.com
NCT (New Century Times)
Daily Wire
News Examiner
USA Supreme
DCClothesLine.com
News-Hound.com (1)
US.Blasting.News
Catsailor.com (1)
DCGazette.com (1)
NewsBiscuit.com (1)
US Uncut (3)
DerfMagazine.com
Newslo (1, 4)
VeteransToday.com
Disclose.tv
NewsMutiny.com (1, 4)
DrudgeReport.com.co (1)
Newswatch 28
WakingUpWisconsin.com
DuffleBlog.com (4)
Newswatch 33
Winning Democrats
DuhProgressive.com
NewsWire-24.com
WitScience.org
Embols.com
NoDisInfo.com
World Net Daily
Empire Herald
Now8News
World News Daily Report (4)
Empire News (1)
NowTheEndBegins.com
WorldTruth.tv
EmpireNews.com
Occupy Democrats (3)
ZeroHedge
Endingthefed.com

Tips for analyzing news sources:


Avoid websites that end in “lo” ex: Newslo (above). These sites take pieces of accurate information and then packaging that information with other false or misleading “facts” (sometimes for the purposes of satire or comedy).

Watch out for websites that end in “.com.co” as they are often fake versions of real news sources.

Watch out if known/reputable news sites are not also reporting on the story. Sometimes lack of coverage is the result of corporate media bias and other factors, but there should typically be more than one source reporting on a topic or event.

Odd domain names generally equal odd and rarely truthful news.

Lack of author attribution may, but not always, signify that the news story is suspect and requires verification.

Some news organizations are also letting bloggers post under the banner of particular news brands; however, many of these posts do not go through the same editing process (ex: BuzzFeed Community Posts, Kinja blogs, Forbes blogs).

Check the “About Us” tab on websites or look up the website on Snopes or Wikipedia for more information about the source.

Bad web design and use of ALL CAPS can also be a sign that the source you’re looking at should be verified and/or read in conjunction with other sources.

If the story makes you REALLY ANGRY (Todd??) it’s probably a good idea to keep reading about the topic via other sources to make sure the story you read wasn’t purposefully trying to make you angry (with potentially misleading or false information) in order to generate shares and ad revenue.

It’s always best to read multiple sources of information to get a variety of viewpoints and media frames. Some sources not yet included in this list (although their practices at times may qualify them for addition), such as The Daily Kos, The Huffington Post, and Fox News, vacillate between providing important, legitimate, problematic, and/or hyperbolic news coverage, requiring readers and viewers to verify and contextualize information with other sources.

Phill,

It seems the a lot of folks from OZ have a fascination with US politics.... Not looking to start a fight, but can I ask why that is? Is OZ still that dependent on the US economy? Being so close to the Asian sphere I would think China would be a bigger influence?

It seems that OZ has a lot of same concerns on Healthcare, Social, Immigration, Foreign & Domestic Policies, etc.... and isn't your Liberal Party at the helm... seems to be very similar to what got Trump elected, that is the so called party of the middle class?

Are people over there regretful to Malcolm Turnbull?

Hobie1616

The data show... Vox Facts don't make a difference

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/16/13426448/trump-psychology-fact-checking-lies

As the notorious george costanza noted... "It's not a lie... if you believe it."

IMO, A "lie" is a moral judgement.... determined by one's culture, society and theology about something in the real world.. The impact of a lie varies... from nothing to profound.

So.. we experience the real world by perception.. the article notes... that people can set aside their belief "Its a lie" perception when they get paid cash... basically something real happens to them if they perceive the real world accurately.

Another quip from the election...
"Regular people take trump seriously and not literally. Elites take trump literally and not seriously"

Take the events of 14 years ago concerning the Iraq war.

So... Trump BELIEVES he opposed the Iraq war from the beginning. This is not a fact and is documented. His supporters do take him seriously and not accurately.. and agree he opposed the Iraq war. The FACTS don't matter. AND THERE IS NO COST to them for this view or payoff.

Now consider the underlying issue about the Iraq war.... Was the Iraq war sold on or based on the basis of a Big lie existence of WMD? Again, we have the facts and the perception of the facts by the left is YES while the right perceives these facts as NO.

The FACTS have never mattered with respect to the war... Calling Bush/Cheney LIARS based on your moral/ethical/theological/cultural foundation or TRUTH TELLERS based on the same made no difference.

What DID make a difference was the actual costs of blood, treasure and wounded warriors. FACTS that impacted your or your families life. Support went from for to against in 4 to 5 years.

Given this reality Facts don't matter... Have you ever persuaded someone on the basis of FACTS?....

Personally.... my answer is NEVER.

New game question for you
... Obama's recovery act was max 2 year shovel ready projects... aka Keynesian stimulus of 1/3 building 1/3 temp tax cuts/ and 1/3 other stuff for 900 billion or so.

Trump proposes about the same... Now called Infrastructure
rebuild for about the same amount of money... but longer term.

The fact is both are Keynesian stimulus programs. WHAT were the LIES about Obama' program... What will be the LIES about Trump's program.
Sadly, the facts again won't matter.
The unfortunate fact of life is... the PERCEPTION of the lie is much stickier in your memory then the hard reality of the fact.
Human nature is human nature. Lying and believing Lies has survival value.

Irony is relabeling lying as political correctness... Political correctness obscures "the truth" Both sides get to deploy this one.

So. the American solution ... the history of slavery/native american policy gave rise to our unique non democratic (small d) constitution and electoral college. In the long run.... the facts tend to win.... but the costs are steep and as they say... in the long run... you are dead.

I agree Mark. The science says global climate change is real. it's confirmed by 97% of climate scientists. But the oil and other energy interests who see a cratering of their bottom line have used FUD to convince the low information types that it's a scam. Look at the screeching our favorite RINO Todd projects.

Todd was also fun to watch when he was screeching about the demise of the 100 watt incandescent light bulb. A program that George W. Bush championed. Ol' Todd was literally fighting his own best interests i.e. reducing his power bill.

And it's not just the wing nuts that get taken up with the anti-science rants.

Years ago, the City of Berkeley, California decided that the styrofoam food containers used by fast food joints were a environmental disaster. They wanted them to convert to waxed paper. Huge demonstrations, letters to the editor, the whole deal. In the middle of it all, the company that made both type of containers issued a press release stating that waxed paper was actually worse as it took forever to break down in land fills and were quite a bit more expensive.

Did Berkeley back off? Nope. Their minds were made up and waxed paper use became the law.

So, will Todd, confronted with overwhelming evidence, ever change his mind about climate change? Nope. His ego won't let him.

And when Trump turns out to be an unmitigated disaster helping only himself and his ilk while leaving the people that believed in him worse off than they were with Obama, will Todd change his mind? Ego strikes again.

It's because we used to follow the USA's moral compass Ventucky, this meant we went in with whatever your country wanted to do, now we find we have to find our own way which is fine, your president elect has stated he is going to reconsider the current agreements and that means we will as well but he should consider that we used to be closely aligned with the USA and we have a huge trade deficit with the USA so if he wants to slap tariffs on or muck around with trade Aus will make a fortune by mirroring his policies

Megyn Kelly: 'I felt like (I'd) been dropped into a shark tank'
"Kelly recounted how one of Trump's lawyers, Michael Cohen, retweeted a Twitter user saying "we can gut her" at a time of heightened threats.

Kelly said Fox News executive Bill Shine intervened, telling Cohen, "You gotta stop this."
Cohen "didn't much care," according to Kelly. She said Shine responded: "Lemme put it to you in terms you can understand. If Megyn Kelly gets killed, it's not going to help your candidate."

"She also noted that Corey Lewandowski, Trump's campaign manager during the primaries, "specifically threatened me if I showed up at the second debate hosted by Fox News.""

Wow Schwantz.

Looking to earn extra money Todd? This is for you.

Fake News Writer: Trump Won ‘Because of Me’

Paul Horner, an individual who creates hoaxes and fake news on Facebook, said he believes he is the reason why Donald Trump won the 2016 presidential election. “Honestly, people are definitely dumber,” Horner said in an interview with The Washington Post. “They just keep passing stuff around. Nobody fact-checks anything anymore—I mean, that’s how Trump got elected.” He added: “I think Trump is in the White House because of me. His followers don’t fact-check anything—they’ll post everything, believe anything.” When asked why he wouldn’t stop, Horner said he didn’t think Trump could ever actually win the presidency. Recently, Google said it would scrub fake news from its ad platforms, which worries Horner because he makes $10,000 per month from advertisements that run with his work.


$10,000 a month Todd. There's plenty of suckers out there. You continue to confirm it.

Our economy has become a consumerism model (the theory that an increasing consumption of goods is economically beneficial.)

People just want to buy, buy, buy....

What is good for US of A is good for OZ? I would think OZ was tied close to the UK....

Have you converted to the square top for you 5.8 per your new class rules?

The consumption of the public is pretty disgusting.

Sez the guys with the $10k-$20k sailing toys.

I'm guilty here too. Just saying we probably ought not pass judgment on this one

We are far removed from UK, don't do nearly as much trade as with USA which is why we have such a large deficit to you guys. Yep I have had the square top since it came in, it isn't faster for heavier crews like me because the top lays off in a breeze turning it into a pin head anyway, so my top speed is down a bit but with the 10 to 1 sheet it means smaller people can enter the class. Here's a video of a couple of weeks ago on a 50km race showing how it keeps the bows down a bit
https://youtu.be/Wf-D_3na1e0

Kewl Vid... thanks for sharing...

It is awesome you guys are still making and racing the 5.8's down (or is it over) there.. It is still a pretty potent boat.. Here is mine with a square top from about ten years ago...



Hmmm.... maybe we could fix that trade deficit and revise the 5.8 class he in the US of A...

Consumption is not a bad thing, seems like many have made it the only thing....

Spot on, nothing wrong with consumption, we had factories building things long ago but had small businesses in every area repairing the items, now we throw stuff away with no support industry

Here's what the new ones look like, because of the mast rotation it looks like it doesn't go to the top but it does

I think the nickel and dime stuff adds up to way more than any single large item.

I'm more frustrated with some of my peers that are convinced they have to "out do" each other. Last summer I heard a report that something like only 47% can come up with $500 cash for a surprise bill. Our population spends every available dime consuming everything possible with no regard for tomorrow.

Sweet... I got to make a trip down there sans the family... call it a sailing pilgrimage..

For ****s and giggles, what are the new ones selling for, the whole boat that is...

Flew with a guy from Chicago to LA once, he ran a bunch of Pay Day Loan stores... Told me a majority of the people they do business with are not destitute, they are just so far in debt they are forced into pay check to pay check lifestyle... it comes in and goes right back out...

Get a new one about Aus$25,000, there's people replacing their 5.8's every couple of years so good supply of two year old boats about Aus$17000, three brand new Nacra 5.8's launched in the last 4 months with about 30 expected at the Nacra National titles at lake Cootharaba near Noosa Queensland over New Years. I've got a boat to lend you on your sailing pilgrimage or you can have a shot on all of them. Here's another video from about 6 weeks ago that shows the New 5.8 sails in the background and me giving my wife a thorough rinsing
https://youtu.be/IgcT5PaEKU4

Holy cow that seems like a bad idea.... There are some who say there has been no moral compass in the USA since the late 1860s Isn't that why we're supposed to be wiped off the map by a certain radical group?

I get so confused these days... Where are those lodestones to recalibrate this compass?

Our entire economy is built on debt and I agree that there are too many people with no savings. This was part of the reason why we pushed the housing industry years ago and that system encouraged people to buy housing which was an investment/savings....except that big banking figured out a way to profit off the poor practices of a lot of people and things got out of control. Even Trump makes his money off debt and by simply using other people's money (debt) to make things happen.

OPM (Other Peoples Money) is the whole Ponzi scheme of real estate investing...

Any idea on what's going on here Todd?

North Pole an insane 36 degrees warmer than normal as winter descends

We're too small a country, lazy and laid back to set our own way, now like a remora we just need to suck onto something and follow them, suddenly the nutters in our government are talking about stronger links with China, yea right like that's a good idea

China is your #1 trading partner.... what links need to be strengthened?



Bloody hell.... do we drink that much Fosters here in the US?

I think Bundy is used as a chemical cleaner.

Real Aussies don't drink fosters, it's for poms and tourists, if you took fosters to a barbie everybody would take the piss out of you

What's up with this?


File this one under either “Be careful What You Wish For” or “Elections Have Consequences.”

The good folk of Clay County, KY voted by a huge margin of 86-11for Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton in last week’s presidential election.

It also turns out that:

About 60 percent of Clay County's 21,000 residents are covered by Medicaid, up from about a third before the expansion. The counties [sic] uninsured rate for nonelderly adults has fallen from 29 percent to 10 percent.

That means that a good portion of the residents of that county just voted to have their own medical coverage taken away from themselves, their families and their neighbors.

Then it must be all the Yellow Tail Shiraz and Pinot Garcio.... stuff that if you brought to cookout in CA.... well you get the hint..

I tend to think that "investment" idea was a marketing sham as well. Housing to me is, well, shelter. Buy it and pay it off. It's not an "investment" or a bank account.

Especially today when it appears that millenials have no interest in buying housing (and the debt, maintenance, and other hassles associated with property ownership), it would appear that my housing "investment" may not produce the kind of yield that the industry touts as reason to keep buying bigger houses.

And who would be the beneficiary of this housing "investment"? I can't realize the net gain on the house until I sell it, and then I'm out of shelter? Or would my beneficiaries get the gain when I'm dropped in a hole in the ground?

Shows how out-of-fashion my thinking is these days prioritizing security (financial/physical) over some "net worth" or "buying power" figure on papers...

A harsh truth about fake news: Some people are super gullible

Todd? Schwantz? Carl?!?!

To me it is an investment despite the market, and it has done pretty well for my portfolio.. On two of my properties the rent is almost double the mortgage.

And I agree, these are not ATM machines like many have done in the past... Can't believe I am starting to hear the ads again, refi you house, payoff you debt and refi some more when you debt gets back up again...

In your case, real estate is an investment. I was referring to people that don't have anything other than their primary residence as "real estate holdings"

In the rental/leasing business, who do you find are the tenants? People who can't afford a mortgage, those who don't WANT a mortgage, or something else?

;-)

Not a question I can really answer...

We have two military bases near by, and we're registered with the Base Housing Office... this is where 99% of our tenants come from. We need to keep the rent and deposits under certain amount for them to list it; however, there are some back end advantages.... never have to worry about rent or any legal issues... tenants are pre-screened... and they are generally some good people to work with... in the past 30 years only once have I had to bust balls with a tenant, and even then one call to the CO and the problem was solved...

But we do have one that wants to be close to the private school their kids are in.... think about it, forgoing owning a house to send their kids to a private school... what does the tell you about the schools in The Peoples Republic of California.

I certainly view my real estate as an investment. I own 2 properties, I intend to sell them at a profit down the road and have more cash than I started with. At that time I will need to purchase another home, and I will intend to do the same maneuver. When I can no longer take care of myself or/and a home, that investment is cashed in.

Sounds great on paper, and this strategy will likely prove successful as you have several parcels..

At the time you decide to sell your properties, do you expect to find alternative land/housing at a more attractive price than you paid for your original two parcels? Or would you in effect be "downsizing" by combining the proceeds from the sale of these parcels into fewer purchases (like one parcel instead of two)?

If I sold my house now I'd see a profit versus what I bought it for, but to buy an identical house (size, location, age, etc) I would have to pay more than the sale of my current one. So my net result might be negative if I chose to sell and buy something else.

Which was my thought regarding considering your primary residence an "investment". If I had other parcels, of course I'd consider those investments since I can sell them and still retain a roof over my head.

I think maybe I fall into the "Ron Swanson school of finance": Bury it in the back yard...? Or perhaps considering "cash-on-hand" as a measure of buying power rather than net worth (which requires borrowing = paying someone else for the privilege of using your money)

Don't fret... It's almost as bad here in FL. I got two in private school which means I won't be buying a foiler for another 12 years. And that's IF they get scholarships (they aren't minority or otherwise disadvantaged kids).

All for the hope that they will be able to afford a nice old-folk home to put me in when I'm decrepit. Otherwise it will likey be that trailer park that smells like pee.

Yes, I consider my primary residence as an investment as well... with every purchase, I have always gone a little over my head in down market... For what I have purchased my current home for and what I could sell it for is... well.... With this house, they're carrying me out feet first.. I am done buying, rehabbing, and moving...

By the way it is not a profit or revenue... it is a capital gain... it has to do with how the IRS considers the income and taxes it... Unless of course your in the "house flipping business."

Hey, take this real estate/investment garbage to a new thread!! LOL

Why do you stay? There's lots of red states where you'd fit right in. Call Bekins today!

This is the saddest post I have ever seen on this forum, people insulting each others wives and families, spreading lies, inciting violence, pretty despicable stuff.
Can we not go back to insulting people about their crappy mark roundings and fouls at the starts and leave this political stuff for people on other forums?
I mean come on, let's at least support each other, sailing, and this forum.
Is this what we want new cat sailors to see when we say " hey there is this great forum on catsailor.com , everyone is super friendly and super helpful, stay away from sailing anarchy.com, those guys are a bunch of A-holes".

Understand my point?
Time to drop this from Ricks site.

Hi Dave,

Like many other things in life there is a choice and you don't have to click on the thread... Experience being the teacher here, the Drill Baby Drill thread should have taught you that lesson... As a fiend of mine once said, "religion, politics, and the queen are not to be discussed at the supper table." This and previous threads are a prime example of this philosophy.

Though I do agree with you on the fact family should be left out of, there are a few that use this style in conversation to get a reaction… For them it is their only form of communication and for this we have the ignore feature... sort of like the Safe Place from micro aggression's... except we don't have play doh, psychologist, pillows, soothing music and an understanding, sympathetic staff. We just don’t have to deal with their shite and can continue a discussion with those that want to act like adults.

Lastly, regarding Sailing Anarchy... from that forum I have made some great friends both in the US and abroad.... AAMOF got a chance to go sailing in Germany a few years back along with some great recommendations for travel,and have a standing invitation for the same in France, Finland, and Amsterdam. I have received some great information on "how tos'" on topics outside of sailing… Along with some great travel, cooking, etc… tips.. There is a pretty good brain trust over there you may want to tap into it.. Saying there all a bunch of assholes is like saying all liberals are idiots… or all conservative morons.. not true… but I will acquiesce that the Pareto principle does come into play….

Have a great Thanksgiving and I hope you can get on the water... we are!!!!

I'm pretty sure we've covered everything cat sailing related. Virtually every topic has been beaten to death.

A home is a mediocre investment at best. Even with bonkers inflation and very low interest rates, you aren't going to make double digit numbers. That's excluding weird factors. I probably could've made 15% per year on a house that I bought, when things bottomed out, and sold four years later, but that's extenuating circumstances. An anomaly.

Most people are terrible with money. Home ownership is the only shot they have to building any wealth at all.

Rental property is a whole different story, though given the choice I would go commercial over residential, but the entry cost is higher. Generally renters are the people who can't get their **** together to buy a home, and the laws are much more favorable as the owner in commercial space. With a well written lease agreement, you're in control.

In a few states the tenants have more rights than the landlord..

That's certainly true for residential, commercial though the laws are more on your side

Well Dave,
To you and your family, and others reading this thread,
Happy Turkey Day, Good Mark roundings, and have fun.

The Associated Press defines 'alt-right.'

“Alt-right” (quotation marks, hyphen and lower case) may be used in quotes or modified as in the “self-described” or “so-called alt-right” in stories discussing what the movement says about itself.

Avoid using the term generically and without definition, however, because it is not well known and the term may exist primarily as a public-relations device to make its supporters’ actual beliefs less clear and more acceptable to a broader audience. In the past we have called such beliefs racist, neo-Nazi or white supremacist.

[b]Writing about the ‘alt-right’[/b]

O'Reilly says don't worry about Todd and Schwantz.

Bill O’Reilly: Don’t worry about white nationalist...

That's not very accepting of the Associated Press. White Supremacists are people with feelings too ya' know. Would it be better if they conducted their meetings in a safe space or wore a safety pin for you?

Nah, just post all this drivel on the internet since that ALWAYS changes people's opinions

Cuz I believe everything I read...

There is no doubt that you have feelings Carl.

They're in there somewhere. Buried under layers of booze, exhaustion, and sawdust.

Ditto. Two in private school and a third that will start next year. No boats in my near future.



Edit: Oops, I guess I have been away from the forum for too long. I replied before I finished reading the thread.

I was listening to Sheriff David Clark on the drive to work this morning, he's guest hosting a morning show.
Yep- one of the few Democrats I'll vote for, as I live in his county.
So, now I'm also llistening atr work on I heart radio! You should listen to him, now on 1130 AM readio- Milwaukee, or listen to the posd casts.
Sharp guy- When he talks, I listen.

Of course you'd listen to him Todd.

Clarke has proposed that about 1 million people should be sent to Guantanamo Bay if they use”jihadi rhetoric” online.

He has referred to the Black Lives Matter movement as “Black Lies Matter.”

Clarke doesn’t believe police brutality is a problem and rails about the “war on police.”

He favors riots to aid Donald Trump but is anti-protest when people are against him.

Terrill Thomas, 38, was found dead in a Milwaukee County Jail cell on April 24, nine days after being arrested in connection with a shooting. Other inmates heard Thomas beg for water in the days before he died, the Journal Sentinel reported in July. Fellow inmates told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel corrections officers shut off the water in Thomas’ cell for the six days before his April 24 death. The jail officers refused the inmates’ warnings that Thomas was sick and in dire need of drinking water, the inmates said.

Yet another person has died at the Milwaukee County Jail, the facility overseen by Sheriff David Clarke, an avid Donald Trump supporter. This time, it was a newborn baby.

According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, a former inmate at the facility claims that a guard laughed off her request for medical attention as she went into labor in her jail cell in July. Thirty-year-old Shadé Swayzer has since filed a notice of claim against the jail alleging that the facility’s staff is responsible for her child’s death, her attorney said Wednesday. Swayzer, who was about nine months pregnant at the time of the incident, is seeking $8.5 million in damages.

He's your kinda guy Todd. Just don't get thrown into his jail.

Garrison Keillor checks in.

It’s a wonderful satire right out of Twain or Thurber. A minority of the electorate goes for the loosest and least knowledgeable candidate, certain that he will lose and their votes will be only harmless protest, a middle finger to Washington, and then — whoa. The joke comes true. You put a whoopee cushion on your father’s chair and he sits down and it barks and he has a massive coronary. You wanted to get a rise out of him and instead he falls down dead. Very funny.

Thank you, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania for this wonderful joke. Voters in high dudgeon against Wall Street manipulators and the Washington aristocracy vote for the billionaire populist who puts tycoons in power and the Republican hierarchy who owned the logjam that the voters voted against. If Billy the Kid had been smart, he’d’ve run for sheriff.

And now we sit and watch in disbelief as the victor drops one piece of china after another, spits in the soup, sticks his fist through a painting and gobbles up the chocolates. Not satisfied with the usual election night victory speech, he stages a post-election victory tour and gloatfest, a series of rallies in arenas where he can waggle his thumbs and smirk and holler and point out the journalists in their pen for the mob to boo and shake their fists at. He puts the Secret Service through their paces, highways are closed, planes diverted, cities disrupted, just so the man can say how much fun it was to defeat Hillary Clinton and confound the experts.

I stood in an airport last Thursday and watched live cable news coverage of his first stop in Indiana where he toured a factory whose owner had been promised a $7 million tax break in return for not laying off 800 workers. In November, 178,000 jobs were created and unemployment fell, and here was a platoon of journalists in Indiana trailing a big galoot with a red tie who offered a corporation $7 million not to lose 800 workers. No gain, simply a non-loss. It was a classic TV moment, extensive live coverage of essentially nothing whatsoever and we all stood in a stupor and watched, like people mesmerized by drops of rain sliding down a windowpane.

Eighty thousand Trump voters in three states gave us this man, which goes to show you how much damage a few people can do. It takes 12 million to provide health care, 3 million to run the public schools, but 19 men with box cutters can turn the country upside down and empower the paranoid right and create the pretense for wars that will cost billions and kill a million people and give us a permanent army of blue uniforms yelling at us to take off our shoes and put our laptops into plastic trays.

He is a showman, and oddity has paid off for him, as it did for Lady Gaga and Gorgeous George and Liberace. But the public demands new tricks. Today, railing at the journalists who slavishly cover him is, like bear-baiting or lion-taming, entertainment enough, but by next fall he will need to pull canaries out of his ears, and by 2018 he’ll be diving on horseback from a high tower into a pool of water while playing “Malagueña” on a trumpet. Meanwhile, the Democrats wander in the woods, walking into trees. A wealthy San Francisco liberal is reelected as minority leader in the House, having flung millions into the wind and gotten skunked in 2014 and drubbed this fall, and a lackluster black Muslim congressman from Minneapolis is a leading candidate for chair of the Democratic National Committee, the person who will need to connect with disaffected workers in Youngstown and Pittsburgh. Why not a ballet dancer or a Buddhist monk?

Meanwhile, the emperor-elect parades in the nude while his congressional courtiers admire him and the nation drifts toward the rapids. The one bright spot is the old draft-dodger’s newfound fondness for generals, including the one who talked him out of the idea of torturing prisoners of war. Military experience does encourage a certain respect for reality. There is hope that if the showman should decide late one night to incinerate Iran or North Korea and get it over with, someone might say, “Hold on. Let’s think this through.”


Do you ever think things through Todd?

Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Children with ODD can be manipulative and often induce discord in those around them.

Commonly they can incite parents and other family members to fight with one and other rather than focus on the child, who is the source of the problem.

Children who have ODD are often disobedient. They are easily angered and may seem to be angry much of the time.

Very young children with the disorder will throw temper tantrums that last for 30 minutes or longer, over seemingly trivial matters.

Does your child:
•Often argue with adults
•Often lose his/her temper
•Is often angry and resentful
•Is often spiteful and vindictive
•Does he/she yell that they "hate you"
•Is he/she constantly in trouble at school
•Is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
•Does your child have extreme mood swings
•Often deliberately annoys people and is rude to adults
•Often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
•Is your he/she a little angel with others but a "monster" at home
•Does he/she constantly argue with you and always has to have the last say
•Does your child have trouble making friends and fitting in at school/pre-school
•His/her temper actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
•Is your child stealing, from home, school, etc. and constantly lying about where he/she obtained the items from

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and other areas of their life, such as work or school.


If you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may feel a sense of entitlement — and when you don't receive special treatment, you may become impatient or angry. You may insist on having "the best" of everything — for instance, the best car, athletic club or medical care.

At the same time, you have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation. To feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make yourself appear superior. Or you may feel depressed and moody because you fall short of perfection.

Many experts use the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, to diagnose mental conditions. This manual is also used by insurance companies to reimburse for treatment.

DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:
•Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
•Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
•Exaggerating your achievements and talents
•Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
•Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
•Requiring constant admiration
•Having a sense of entitlement
•Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
•Taking advantage of others to get what you want
•Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
•Being envious of others and believing others envy you
•Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner

Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence, it's not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal and value yourself more than you value others.

When to see a doctor

When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may not want to think that anything could be wrong — doing so wouldn't fit with your self-image of power and perfection. People with narcissistic personality disorder are most likely to seek treatment when they develop symptoms of depression — often because of perceived criticisms or rejections.

just sayin....

I thought this thread was dead after Nov 9. Ice cold Dr. Pepper here!!

Snails - 1
Trump - 0

Snails accomplished what 16 Republican primary opponents and Hillary Clinton could not: defeat Donald Trump. The US president-elect just withdrew plans to build a massive seawall that would protect his Irish golf resort from rising sea levels caused by the climate change that he previously said is a Chinese hoax. Environmental activists opposed the development that would have extended 1.7 miles (2.8 kilometers) on Doughmore Beach in the Atlantic Coast village of Doonbeg, claiming that construction of the 15-foot limestone wall would have destroyed the EU-protected Carrowmore Dunes sand dune habitat that is home to the rare prehistoric snail, vertigo anguistor.

While Trump has recently waffled on his past statements denying the human connection to climate change and promising to withdraw the US from the Paris climate agreement, the documents submitted for the seawall in May were quite clear about the impact of climate change, stating that “rising sea levels and increased storm frequency and wave energy associated with global warming can increase the rate of erosion.”

Seriously? Most people here despise obedience to authority (just mention US Sailing and see what happens), and I recognize at least half of the Narcissistic traits in many, many posts on this site.

Hopefully, that's all just an artifact of communication via this format; otherwise, we're surrounded by maniacs...

Mike

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/0...colin-kaepernick-for-anthem-protest.html

It's all in the numbers Todd.

President Obama's overall approval rating is at 50%. However, while his favorability with Republicans is 9%, it is only 5% of Trump voters.

Trump voters live in a virtually fact-free or made-up-fact environment.

The stock market under President Obama soared. The Dow Jones Industrial average went from 7,949.09 to 19,614.91, again, up 11,665.72. In other words, it more than doubled. 39% of Trump voters think the stock market went down under Obama.

Unemployment dropped from 7.8% to 4.6% during the Obama administration. Clinton, Johnson, Stein and other voters are well aware of that fact. But not Donald Trump voters; 67% of them believe unemployment rose under President Obama.

40% of Trump voters believe that Donald Trump won the popular vote.

60% of Trump voters believe that millions voted illegally for Clinton.

73% of Trump voters believe that George Soros paid Trump protesters.

29% of Trump voters believe California vote should not be included in the popular vote.

"I think it shows that even after the election, what Trump voters believe about the world is distinctively different from what the rest of the country believe. And from what is true. And this is an alternate reality that they are in, -- it is weird enough and specific enough that you can't say it just springs from broader a misunderstandings or from a broader ignorance on issues that afflicts the country.

And this is a specific alternate reality that was created by the Trump movement for a political purpose. And it worked for that political purpose. And now as the Trump administration takes shape, they have to know that they are in power thanks to their voter base that has these false beliefs about the country.

False beliefs about the country, false beliefs about the economy, false beliefs about the outgoing president, false beliefs about what California is. In terms of what happens next in our country, it seems important to know this incoming president basically created this fantasy life for his supporters."

Mr. Curry,

As I remember, you are retired military, I thank you for your service. However I must object to your tag line. I find it to be insulting, petty and just plain wrong.

The America Civil Liberty Union has protected the civil rights of all America citizens that we have under our constitution. They have protected your right to say what you have said about them.

You and I are close to the same age, so you probably entered the service in the Vietnam era. A conflict spearheaded by 2 chicken hawk presidents. Our young men should not have been sent there.

As you were in the military, I must ask, was every soldier of the Christian faith?

Were there any Atheist's?

Any Shinto's, Buddhist's or Muslim's?

Or are they also SOB's?

As far as toughening up, I will do just as I did after Nixon was elected. I will deal with it and not act like Mc Connell & Boehner and doom him from day 1.

Regarding Viet Nam, I believe Eisenhower got us into this and Kennedy started the escalation... both of these were decorated WWII Vets... as was Johnson who kept us there and was awarded, even though he was a naval officer, the Army Silver Star in WWII. Also, Nixon who ended the war was awarded two battle starts for service in the South Pacific... None of the Viet Nam era presidents were chickenhawks..

In answer to your second question... there are no atheist in a fox hole.. just saying....

Chicken hawk may be the wrong descriptor of these men.

Ego driven men without the will to admit that made a mistake and correcting it may be more appropriate.

Please refer to Robert A. Caro's biographies of LBJ for a better history.

The best way to support our troops is to not send them on foolish missions.

Are you absolutely sure of your second response?

Kennedy was advised by both Eisenhower and Douglas MacArthur to pull out of Vietnam... Eisenhower was tied to lending support to the French and the newly established South Vietnamese government as part of the Paris Treaty at the end if WWII... terms agreed to by Truman.

Some say the Kennedy wanted out and this may have cost him his life...

Some say that Johnson saw the writing on the wall after Kennedy was hit a decided to go along with what Eisenhower referred to as the Military Industrial Complex..

So lets sum this up...

Ho Chi Minh approached Truman (a democrat) after assisting the US in fighting the Japanes to help in establishing a free country... Truman said no..

Eisenhower (a republican) gave aid and advisors to South Vietnam to help in the fight against the communist. But, refused to escalate it beyond that.

Kennedy (a democrat) escalated the conflict with more aid and ground and air support.

Johnson ( a democrat) further escalated the war and this cost him his presidency... that is he chose not to run and ran from the problem..

Nixon (a republican) ended it...

Score D-3 R-2.. looking at the scoreboard... looks like team D has the bigger ego Huh!

You forgot one name Robert McNamara - he should have been hung for treason... I my mind he was the true culprit behind this.... Or at least all of his CEO buddies

jkkartz1, for tomorrows class be prepared to discuss the Bay of Pigs and the events leading and including the Kennedy assassination..

No matter it was a mistake made by several presidents.

Hopefully we have learned something from it.

Would you care to address Mr. Curry's ACLU comment?

Sure, I'll bite

The ACLU is a Necessary Evil... they have done some good and bad... and sometimes they should just mind their own business..

To their credit, the stood with the Nazi/Skinheads; which was politically incorrect even back then, when they wanted to march in Chicago in defense in their right to free speech. As well as Brown v. Board of Education. Regarding Brown, a lot of liberals really championed this but once the law was passed, nothing really happened... Care to take a guess at who really enforced school desegregation?

As for the bad, I don't like that fact that due to the diligent work of the ACLU, in many cases a criminal has more rights than the victim's of their crimes. I can't seem to recall the ACLU standing up for victims rights.

As for minding their business; recently, there was a HS football game where they we're honoring first responders and alocal fallen hero... innocent shite. But this tweaked the ACLU to the point where the sent a letter to the school district noting that this was a direct protest and an injustice to the pro athletes who have taken a knee during the National Anthem, following the actions of San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick.

it is humorous to see all these "simple" answers on how to "fix" foreign relations.

But thank you to those who are posting some of the information which demonstrates it's not so simple when you really start to dig in...

Does isolationist policy really work?

Is global policing really the only answer? (Team America movie comes to mind)

Should the concept of foreign policy be designed only to advance American interest? If so, at what cost to the remainder of the globe?

That's quite a history lesson Schwantz. Here's a recent quote from a guy who also made history.

Trump lives and thrives in a fact-free environment. No president, including Richard Nixon, has been so ignorant of fact and disdains fact in the way that this president-elect does. It has something to do with the growing sense of authoritarianism that he and his presidency are projecting and the danger of it is obvious and he’s trying to make the conduct of the press an issue not his own conduct.

What we have seen throughout the campaign is pathological disdain for the truth, a kind of lie and ease with lying that we have not seen before.
--- Carl Bernstein

People who have all this contempt and hate is just a poison that they take in hopes that the other person dies

Did you see that while Michigan went Red, in Detroit area alone, there found more people had voted that had registered? Look it up

Thanks Stein for making it possible to point that out

does Detroit allow on-site voter registration?

Can't imagine how you could walk up and vote without that provision...

Things are different here (registration closes 29 days before election and Photo ID verification at check-in)

The way all states should be!!

Facts matter:

Not "registered" but were logged by the poll station staff. They write down the person voting in a log book upon arrival and then the person votes. The votes vs. the log book didn't match at several precincts. In some cases there were more votes than in the log books, in some cases there were fewer votes than in the log books. It's definitely a good reason to do an audit to rule out or determine ill intent but there is a decent chance that it was human error and/or poor procedures or, even worse, shitty voting equipment that resulted in the discrepancies. For example; Machines were reported to have jammed when the voter feeds their ballots in and the vote gets nullified when the ballot is attempted to feed in a second time. Poll staff are supposed to correct the issue but may not have in many locations. Also notable is that 158 of the 392 precincts in Detroit where discrepancies were found were only off by 1 vote between the log and the vote tally and I can imagine that most of the others hovered in that single digit range. Wild numbers are fun but details matter.

My point is; because there are discrepancies doesn't automatically mean that someone was cheating. It should definitely be drilled into and the issues discovered.

I would agree with Jake's position that discrepancies don't always point to fraud.

My particular district had something like 1400+ voters cast ballots, and many of those ballot "styles" were multiple pages (front and back) because of the number of questions on the ballot as well as the english/spanish translations of each question.

So, roughly 2800 ballot "pages" were run through the machine (not counting the "provisional ballots" which are counted separately).

We also have to consider that more than a handful of voters screwed up their ballot (didn't fill out the bubble, marked areas that the scanner couldn't read, etc) and had to "spoil" one page and get a new copy.

Heck, some voters intentionally did not fill out anything on their ballots. There is even a procedure to count those blank ballots...

Each of these "issues" has a corrective action (and documentation) which helps prevent or at least explain any difference between the number of voters and the number of ballots cast.

Is all of this perfect? I doubt it. But does this constitute "fraud", or will this difference be enough to swing an election by 2 million votes? I suspect the answer is "no".

I guess I should also strongly urge those folks who feel the election process is "rigged" actually volunteer to be a voting station worker.

I know I had to complete almost 40 hours of training for the local election, and then re-certify for each election after that. Through this effort, I gained respect for the way our state operates the election process.

I miss the "dimpled chad".

Jay, I fully appreciate your effort to make our democracy work.

I don't know if this is universal, but where I live, our ballots are huge, and have to be filled in by hand (ovals), then scanned at a central location.

I don't know why, but there is no curtain around the scanner, and for as long as I recall (except this year), some volunteer tells us HE has to put the ballot into the scanner (and of course he reads the votes first).

That just don't seem right...

Mike

In Md.... We now are back to the scanning system because it provides a hard record for recounts. You put your ballot in a folder and then open the folder and push the ballot into the scanner. The poll worker supervises you pushing the ballots into the scanner. You have to do it tho. If you think somebody can read your ballot between the time you move it from the sleave and stuff it into the scanner.... well. I would ask you to provide some evidence. Perhaps the poll worker who stuffs your ballot into the machine can record your vote.. but again... I would need some evidence.

The process here is similar, Mark. Only the voter handles his/her ballot. If the machine kicks it back, the poll worker is only there to provide instructions.

If a ballot has to be touched by anyone other than the voter, a requirement is to have two workers (one from each party) assist/observe.

In addition to all this, there are up to 4 poll watchers (2 from each political party in my case) who watch like a hawk and call the elections office to report any discrepancies.

Finally (and I think I said this before), the machines are audited which means the ballots are removed, hand-counted and the scores are compared against the machine readout. All this is done in the presence of multiple witnesses from all political parties and/or a public meeting.

wow, SC more technically advanced for once. We have digital voting machines - you enter your vote into the digital machine with no paper ballot. Staff at a desk record your name into the log book and give you a red tag. You wait at a short line for a voting machine to come available. Another polling place staffer walks you to that machine where he/she inserts a large red block/dongle to enable the machine for your vote. When done, you just leave and they remove the red dongle.

Now, drawbacks? I don't think you could technically do a recount other than compare the logbook to the number of votes the machines totaled. You would also need to go to some really great lengths to make sure that machine (and however it sends it's data) can't be tampered with.

Jake, MD had those machines 2 years ago... but the best practice study prompted the state to sell those machines and go back to scanners and paper ballots... Handicap access was provided in other ways.... That is what got lost in the reversion to scanners.

Did South Carolina buy them?

Seems they have been around a decade or
So.

I did not know there was still as many other areas still using paper. Our machines in my mind make hacking a possibility, though very very remote. I'm not crazy about the idea about having no physical record of my vote.

I really like the way Florida has been doing it with the paper. I just wouldn't trust a strictly data-driven system. Data can easily go *poof* during a malfunction and it's gone forever. I also feel it can be easily manipulated if hacked. It's much harder to manipulate hard paper with the oversight they have set up. I think their check-in procedures are pretty spot on as well. You have to be on their list of registered voters and show ID. I'm sure there are still bad players who can abuse the system this way, but it is much more difficult than simply jumping on a bus and riding from polling station to polling station.

I'm still a little lost on the ID requirement. You are either a registered voter on the list or you aren't. If you aren't on the list, you can't vote. If you are on the list and already voted, you can't vote. Only if you are on the list in your precinct and have not registered a vote can you vote again. It would be really difficult to leverage that to your advantage on any significant scale.

The ID requirement stops someone from voting fraudulently as a dead voter... IE the recently dead who have not been purged from the voting roles.

The 1960 election is mythologized as thousands of dead voters swinging the election to Kennedy from Nixon in Chicago. This was driven by the Daley Democratic machine who made the levers churn by using their machine. The republicans are hyping the risk of the dead voting to provide a reason for ID restrictions that suppress minority vote. The issue is not presenting an ID... its presenting one of the approved photo ID's which are pricey to get. The benefit of course is that it suppresses vote in the urban areas where "THOSE" voters are.

At the end of the day.. you are correct that it is really difficult to leverage the dead voting. Truth be told... its much easier to send the oldest and most likely to malfunction machines to the areas where you want to suppress vote.. Waiting in line for 6 hours can be the norm in some areas. The impact of voter ID laws happen well before the voting period... It raises the bar for voters so that they don't even try to re register after a change of address, life status, etc (money, time, headache, confusion, etc)

I didn't mean to imply that the worker reading my ballot at the scanner was attempting to commit fraud in any way. But, it leaves a very unpleasant impression (far too nosey for why should be a secret process).

One year, the guy actually took a moment to stop and read it, I guess trying to read it as it was being pulled into the scanner was too much of a challenge...

We don't get folders or sheaths, just a ballot. I suppose anyone in the area with good eyes could read it, not just the worker in that position.

Mike

An approved photo ID is a pricey venture?

I don't believe in large scale fraud, but I also have a hard time believing that an appropriate ID is such a burden. In fact I hardly see how it's practical to get through life these days without one.

My drivers license is my only photo id and it costs $140 per two years. (State went on a user fee binge under Erlich.

What other state approved photo ID do you have in your wallet AND that is readily available. (Oh and its 20 bucks to get a copy of a birth certificate for any of these things... .... so if you need a birth certificate to vote... this is all known as a poll tax)

Hmm, a DMV issued photo ID (not a drivers license) is free in this state to anyone over 17. Must provide proof of identity, citizenship and residency in this state.

http://www.scdmvonline.com/dmvnew/default.aspx?n=identification_cards


Looks like the same thing would cost you $24 every 8 years. Free to seniors. Again I don't see this as a huge burden.

http://www.dmv.org/md-maryland/id-cards.php


I hardly see it as a "poll tax" these are all things that are very useful in everyday life.

wow! I've never lived anywhere were the drivers license required fees like that or that much renewal...MY SC license has been valid for 10 years and I think there's a $20 fee associated with it or something.

I want to say seven years and $35 for renewal here in Minnesota.

USER FEES... are my states republican way of cutting taxes but maintaining the revenue. We invented the flush tax... to pay for waste treatment plants and then applied it to septic owners.... Lots of noise about that one.. but... all in all it worked so... the next admin was democratic and created the Rain tax to pay for the EPA consent decree to mange rain water runoff waste water into the bay. So, the next admin promised to kill the rain tax... and pay for the consent decree... though general revenue. So we come full circle... at the end of the day... you have to pay for things.... what you call it... is marketing.

So... charge anything for a photo id... that you require for voting.. its a poll tax. Now ... how you market it... well

Is there a breakdown of what those fees are used for... such as the State Patrol, etc.....

I thought in MD you could get an ID card for $15.00 that will last 8 years... has this changed?

Funny... went to the doctor the other day... they know me I know them, but now with the AHA they need a copy of my ID with each visit or they don't get reimbursed... seems you can't get through life without a photo ID these days

It's not "known" as poll tax, it's SPUN as poll tax. As mentioned above, there are places where seniors can get them for free.

A driver's license is a privilege, not a right. It's happens to be a convenient form of photo ID. There are other forms.

As you noted, everything costs money, to print, administer, etc.

A really smart government would make the IDs free to protect the legitimacy of the vote, and pay for it out of general funds. Of course, that will never happen with our overly-partisan system that values fight and change over working together to make us stronger.

Mike

Not to start a fight about voter fraud, but didn't one of the Democratic leaders up North (NY?) admit to bussing folks around from precinct to precinct and casting multiple votes? Maybe I have been a victim of false news???

EDIT: I don't know the credibility of the source but here is the story.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/10/18/project-veritas-election-videos/#

Old saying
"No tickey No laundry"

Jake,

Florida used those electronic only machines for one of the elections a bit ago (I think after the 2000 election debacle) but moved back to the electronic/paper system after the questions were raised about accountability.

With the paper trail, not only can we verify the # votes = # voters, but we can audit the machine itself (# votes for candidate 1 = # ballots for candidate 1).

I think there was a rumor that one precinct in Texas 2008 had a machine programmed wrong so that a vote for candidate 1 was actually checking the box for candidate 2.

And our paper ballots are issued with a privacy sleeve to be used by the voter until such time as they (themselves) insert it in the machine.

As to the issue of voter ID, I agree that some forms of ID cost money (and therefore can be seen as a sort of "poll tax"). But the list of photo/signature ID is rather large and includes some forms of ID that are free (photo/signature credit card is one that pops out in my mind). But the vast majority use Driver license / ID or Passport.

Those who don't have ID are given a provisional ballot to be evaluated by a separate "canvassing board" who establish the citizen's right to vote and count that ballot if those eligibility criteria are met.


What is really interesting, however, is the vast differences between states as to how they handle the election process.... Surely there must be some "best practices" list of things that is shared among states. But since voting is left under the pervue of state gub'ment I guess it's all up to elected representatives...

Mike... a really smart government.... Say WHAT!

"Starting with John F. Kennedy’s victory over Richard Nixon in 1960, Delia Anderson had voted in 14 straight presidential elections.

She had cast her ballot at the same polling place for years, never with a glitch. This year, however, a volunteer driving her to the polls mentioned that she would be asked to show a state-approved photo ID.
ADVERTISING

“Don’t these poll people already know who I am?” replied Anderson, who is 77, black and uses a wheelchair, as she frantically sifted through her purse for anything to prove her identity.

It was a lost cause. She had planned to vote for Hillary Clinton. Instead, for the first time in 56 years, she did not cast a ballot.

“Lord, have mercy,” she said. “What happened to voting?”"
In Wisconson...

from la times

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-minority-voter-suppression-2016-story.html

OH... and even a charge of 15 dollars for the right to vote... is aka a poll tax. Semantics!

So far... i believe they have ID 1 case of voter fraud in the last election....

But not All places will provide an ID for free - relatively few are. If you have to pay money for an ID, that you wouldn't need otherwise, and you need that ID in order to place a vote - It doesn't take much spin to consider that a poll tax.

That said, most of us need that ID for other things (driving a car) and it comes in handy for a lot of other things. With that being the case, most of us see very little issue or hassle with having to provide one to vote. However, the Constitution does not intend for only "most of us" to be able to vote.

For Florida at least:

Approved forms of picture identification are:

Florida driver's license

Florida identification card issued by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles

United States passport

debit or credit card

military identification

student identification

retirement center identification

neighborhood association identification

public assistance identification

veteran health identification card issued by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs

license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm issued pursuant to s. 790.06

an employee identification card issued by any branch, department, agency, or entity of the Federal Government, the state, a county, or a municipality (Section 101.043, F.S.)

Some of these forms of ID do not require money, only the time/effort to obtain it. Those not willing to spend that time/effort probably won't want to spend time voting either?

Delia Anderson at 77 years of age more than likely is getting social security benefits as well as medicare
How can she cash the checks or open a bank account with out proper ID

I'm a homeless person with no bank account who makes my "living" standing on a street corner with a "Help Me" sign and I spend my nights in a shelter. I'm too proud to be on public assistance - or maybe my reading skills aren't good enough to read the form. I watch the news on television at the shelter and I want to vote in the election. The State of Florida is preventing me from voting.

Your argument is invalid.

Given that there haven't been any serious documented cases where a lack of ID requirement was leveraged to create forged votes on any significant scale, why are IDs a big deal?...unless you want to keep a particular group from voting...which isn't very constitutional. You're much more likely to die in a car crash that experience a fraudulent vote but I don't hear you guys screaming for a reduction in speed limits or 5 point harnesses ;-).

It's not like you can just walk up to any precinct to vote. You still have to be a registered voter in THAT precinct and that registration only gets to vote once.

This is just typical of the BS spin... How can XXX not have ID in this country blah blah blah....
the ISSUE is PHOTO ID for VOTING... not proper ID for voting. The little old lady had tons of ID... some probably government issued... just not PHOTO ID...

There is NO PROBLEM with individual Voter fraud by false ID photo or otherwise.
There are NO revolving door polling places where you cast votes as mr jones... mr smith and mr brown. The republicans cannot produce any data... much less compelling data that demonstrates a problem.

PHOTO ID requirements are a way to raise a barrier to voting that impact some demographics more then others. I don't know why they just don't cut the polling booths by half in the areas that don't support the powers in charge. Much more effective. "HEY... you could have voted if you waited in line for 6 hours... Your choice!" IMO, Both are barriers that are un American.

OH..BTW
We don't have "Papers" in this country. You don't have to walk around with specific government ID AT ALL...

I don't know of any law that requires you to carry ID ... AT ALL
Now... if you want to have that debate... Let' have at it. (HINT... its a real issue for all those wanting actual immigration caps and enforcement AND it will redefine American Values.

Hmm Too proud to go on public assistance but not too proud to beg

That's not what we're talking about here. That was an example and I think you missed the point

Again Mark, this is not BS spin.... for her to apply and receive SS benefits she needed a photo ID, for her to cash her SS check, she'll need a photo ID, for her to apply and received Medicaid benefits she needed a photo ID, the list goes on...

Leave you photo ID at home and see how far you can get without it..

Oh! In CA if you're on public assistance, the card is free.... pretty sure this is the same for most states



Your right, this is not a federal law, but it is a state law in many states that are part of the Interstate Motor Vehicle Compact... which Maryland and Virginia are part of...

The government issued ID problem is much bigger than many of you believe. 3.2 million Americans do not possess a government-issued picture ID according to a 2012 study co-authored by Norden.


from http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote



You marry these facts with a lack of actual fraud that these new rules are prophesied to protect us against and it's pretty easy to assume there is an ulterior motive...or at least a quietly agreeable benefit to those that are putting these rules in place.

Jake highlights facts.. YOU (Or me) don't get to say how you choose to live in this country. So... the little old lady has not needed a photo ID to live her life in this country for 70 plus years.. You don't get to judge that reality and deny them a constitutional right. ...

Matt's principled street beggar gets to choose their existence... and you also don't get to judge that as up or down and deny them constitutional rights either.

We are talking about VOTING.... not functioning in American society according to a standard that YOU or your political party wants to impose.

So... we eventually got the constitutional right to vote mostly sorted out. Blacks, can now vote... Woman can now vote.... you don't have to own property to vote..

All constitutional rights are balancing acts and the specific details get decided by the Supremes.

On the one hand, you have a legitimate concern that all votes are cast according to the constitution.... and on the other hand.... what is an undue burden on individuals voting to ensure that result.

as Jake points out... some populations don't have photo Id. I point out that PROOF of voter ID voting fraud is trivial and almost non existent. Moreover, the difference a photo ID would make on the trivial numbers documented are vanishingly small and the impact of fraud of this type hardly decisive in normal political election. (Counting and arithmetic errors in one county swamp the literally handful of documented voter fraud cases nationwide)

So... What is your argument that PHOTO ID voting requirements is a BALANCED response to the legitimate concern that elections are representative, fair and accurate. Don't forget our constitution takes into account the rights of the individual and stops majorities from stomping on individuals. ... So... balance away...

You and your fantasy scenario's.

This state has a law where you have to ID yourself on demand.

We have got to this point because people lie and cheat.

Why do we take our shoes off to get on a plane?

Because of one guy.

If you are not responsible enough to get an ID then maybe you should not vote.

And watching the news at a shelter, LOL. What ABC, CBS, NBC, please.

You don't like our state laws, stay the hell out.

Remind me again on how much that cost you and the verification process you were subjected to for this privilege?

For me, it was free. And, there was no verification process.

There is a certain type of person in the US that confounds me and is a real threat to this country. They pound the constitution like a bible when it suits their needs but are lightning quick to ignore it when it doesn't. They scream "FREEDOM!" and "DON'T TREAD ON ME!" but only care to apply that philosophy to the flesh contained within the perimeter of the belt around their waist. This country is not yours, mine, or theirs. It is ours. Every single United States Citizen has rights and protections provided under a unified Constitution and this has created a magnificent country. Quit trying to kiss it up by picking and choosing which rules you want to apply.

The accuracy of votes (and potential of fraud to actually impact the outcome) should be a concern to everyone here. There have been crazy-tight results in several of the recent presedential races (virtual 50/50 ties, relying on electoral strategy), that I don't see how you seriously think this isn't a problem.

If the average citizen thinks the system is rigged, that's bad enough to keep them from voting. If they have proof that it's rigged, there will eventually be riots. This is to say nothing about the international view of our democratic process. Do we really not want to take action to avoid that?

Hanging chads forced the change in voting machine technology, it's natural to want to ensure that all votes cast are legitimate. I don't know why you have to consider me a bigot/racist/supremacist to say that (I'm none of those).

Mike

Everyone will get a free pass every once in a while... If you're lucky to get it on one flight chances are you'll get it on the return flight... And, if your traveling a lot you can have a permanent PreTSA or Known Traveler Number.

The cost is $100, plus an background check, and a ID verification.

A lot of my work mates that do international travel have a Nexus Card or a Global Entry card that has your photo on it and other info similar to a driver license... This lets them breeze right through TSA and Customs...

Jake, I liked when you used the term 'United States Citizen' and Constitution

um... Accuracy and constitutionality of voting IS a shared concern. (that is why this debate is ongoing.

crazy-tight results is a FACT.

It is a complete and total failure of logic to conclude that..
"seriously think this isn't a problem. "

By your logic... the basketball game was for the championship (integrity is important given the impact).. the game was tight (a measurable fact)... it was decided by 1 POINT (The specific fact in this case). So Seriously... we have a problem with .... the score keeper, the last shooter.. the referee, the coach, etc etc etc or the existential question... DID the ball go through the hoop 97 times.... really?

What do you want to argue here? You Need to measure and prove a FACT.... not handwave.... with your "seriously think this isn't a problem argument"

STep one... Identify and measure the actual problem. How much voter fraud related to ID fraud is there, where and when and what is the rigor of proof?

Try again... WHAT is your balancing act between the two concerns. Constitutional integrity of voting AND undo burdens on voting.

Me... I think showing one form of records with your address in the district is sufficient. It preserves both integrity of voting and constitutional rights.

Me... I think showing TWO forms of records with your address in the district is more then sufficient... and you Could make the case that it is an unreasonable BARRIER in some circumstances. If its judged a barrier... then your constitutional right to vote is abridged.

Me... I think showing a PICTURE ID with your current address in the district is a BARRIER and moreover, solves no real problem. (AND I have data showing this fact disparate impact is in fact true)

If you had to travel 100 miles to update your FREE photo ID solely to vote... would that be a barrier to you... how about your 90 year old grand parent in a wheel chair who changed his address to a new retirement home? My point... EVEN FREE ID....is not the complete test of a barrier that takes away your constitutional right.

How about a deal? A government records certification site issueing picture IDs within 5 miles of every precinct voting station in USA AND a nationwide standard for the number of voting machines in each polling station.... I will then conclude that a photo ID is not a barrier.

PS... Who said/inferred you are a bigot/racist/supremacist? Why is it... that all discussion ends with one party deciding they were called a racist in so many words?

OK, maybe I'm spoiled because everything here is within a half-hour drive. We all know that dealing with the government (registry of motor vehicles, etc.) is certainly a drain on your free time.

Hey, I get annoyed because I'm registered, and own a house, and pay taxes, and vote every year, and I'm on the list; yet I'm forced to wait in a separate line to prove who I am (with a photo ID) because I don't respond to the town's annual census. So, that's irritating, but I still value that they're making sure all votes are from actual citizens of that district. Call me crazy...

Happy New Year, everyone.

Mike

I've had free PreCheck since it started. It might have something to do with the 1.8 million miles I've flown with American.

The don't do the inclusion program anymore for the high mile traveler, or those that earn mileage points using their airline credit cards... that is why I got the Known Traveler Number.

I still get PreCheck printed on boarding passes. My wife gets it too as she's connected with my account.

I've got over 1.8 million flight miles. The credit card points have taken me well over two million.

Well good for you and your wife....

I don't know if that's "good." How many years of your life do you spend in an airliner seat to accumulate 1.8 million miles?

Mike

Taking the average speed of an airliner... 737 and above @ 550 MPH.... that is 3,272 hours... just a little under a half a year... or 136 days in the air... very doable..

My self, I have been at it for about 30 years... and between my three most used... I have just about 1.1 million actual miles. Add in the credit card and other perks it is much higher. I haven't traveled as much in the last 6 years.... it gets old quick and the TSA has really proven that the chronically unemployed are employable..

Too many. Most of it was international. Minimum of ten hours and some that were fifteen plus. My longest trip started out in San Francisco. Went to Mexico City, looped through Miami to Bogota, reversed course to Auckland and ended up in Brisbane before going through Sydney to get back to San Fran. I was gone for a month.

She enjoys first class trips on miles.

Wow. I used to travel for work, mostly domestic. Coach is bad enough cross-country, horrible across an ocean.

Mike

Better burn those miles... many of the airline are going to a segment / ticket dollar model per year similar to Southwest and a few of the other cheapies... Seems those upgrades will not be available unless you have status...

http://thepointsguy.com/2017/01/aa-2017-elite-spend-requirements/

What would you propose in lieu of some form of identification?

Is there a way to establish that a person walking up is:
- Registered to vote
- Resides in the precinct
- Has not had their right to vote revoked (i.e., felony conviction, prior fraud conviction, etc)
- HAS NOT VOTED ALREADY (by mail, in another precinct, etc)



And those who cannot or will not present identification are still allowed to vote a provisional ballot. The canvassing board then establishes the eligibility of this voter (not the polling station) and counts the vote if they are eligible.

So there is a way that someone with no ID can vote legally. It's just a bit more time consuming than the more automated systems.

I think my biggest challenge at the voting station for people with no ID is that we couldn't establish exactly which ballot they were supposed to get..

Several precinct lines intersected our voting location, so I had 7 or 8 ballot "styles" which corresponded to various senate, legislative and county seats.

So two people living next door to each other could, in theory, have two different ballot styles if the boundaries crossed between them.

I saw this issue firsthand as we had a van drop off several folks with no address or identification. One person did give the name of a local homeless shelter so we used that address as their residence and issued a provisional ballot. Only one other person gave vague directions to his location (obviously didn't want us knowing which lot he has used) so that's all we could do (issue provisional).

Being that we have a large undocumented population in FL, it would be nice to know if there is a means to identify those eligible voters without some form of documentation?

For the downtrodden that can't get to or afford a photo ID.... let them show their Obamacare card.... after all this is a mandate that everyone has coverage and in order to get coverage what do you have to do? Provide what again?

Oh! Thought so...

I don't think provisional ballots are a universal option. I think progressive states have put these procedures in place to preserve the constitutional right... Other states... meh....

The ultimate answer to absolute ballot fidelity is a national ID. Not sure if you want to trade your notion of civil liberties AND the risk of Identity Fraud for absolute certainty in voting.

I'm pretty liberal about a lot of things, but WOW is that a stretch. Giving up civil liberties to have an ID? What civil liberties?

I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that states you have the right to be anonymous and have access to any other right. The Constitution is for citizens, without an ID, how does anyone prove they're a citizen?

I don't think that anyone passing through the country (or worse) gets the right to vote.

Don't forget, at the time the Constitution was written, physical access to the country was quite difficult.

Mike

I'm not sure who brought up "civil liberties" but is about whether or not you a making an unnecessary barrier to vote for those that do not have an ID.

I fully support needing to register to vote (free) ahead of time so your name will show up on a registry for an extended period (years). This action is easy enough to support/promote with very little burdon on the citizens. The state is responsible to eliminate people from those registration lists upon death, incarceration, or change of citizenship. If you are not registered, i.e. on the list at your polling station, you don't get to vote at your polling station.

There has not been established any concrete (or significant) issue of voter fraud when IDs are not required. From a historical perspective, simply having the ability to posses a photo ID is a relatively modern capability and one that is deeply overshadowed by a long history where such an ID wasn't even a technical possibility.

This country came a long way allowing for voting without IDs for a hell-uv-a long time. Remind me why it needs to change.

Sorry! .... I introduced a new issue in a misguided attempt to make it uncomfortable for the pro photo ID crowd to maintain their support for the silly notion that photo ID helps any actual problem... (other then not stopping the wrong people voting in the first place)

The conservative half of the country goes bonkers at the notion that the Federal government will require all citizens to carry a national ID card (in addition to all of the state ID cards for privileges that you carry).

Of course, If everyone had a national ID card (aka passport) and was required to have one and update it every 10 years.... then the non existent voter fraud due to lack of photo ID problem would diminish further.

I suggested that anyone who wishes not to provide ID just request a vote-by-mail ballot. That goes to the address of the person registered in that precinct. Problem solved, right?

Now, on to those who wish to vote but have no permanent address..

The utility bills can be used to get another form of photo/signature ID, but without some form of ID, the person holding that utility bill cannot prove they are the same.

Perhaps a tangent discussion is that with all the people that are ELIGIBLE to vote, less than 40% actually do. So we're fighting for the few folks that don't have some form of identification while we ignore the vast majority that are too lazy to vote (by mail or in person).

And the other issue is those seasonal residents who may try to register in both locations (north and here).

There are actually 2 separate databases we use at the voting location to verify a person. But that all relies on being able to verify that the person standing in front of us is actually the person they say they are. Hence the requirement for some sort of photo/signature ID.

The thought occurred to me regarding all the transient folks in my particular area... They have to obtain a resident ID card to pick up their paycheck(s). The employer often obtains them (or pays for the fee) for the employees...

but that's back to the "having a job" thing as a form of poll tax.


Those in line at the SSN and/or Gub'ment benefits office already have a form of ID used to prove voter eligibility

So we're talking about those folk with no address and no employment.

I think the "Grahm Stain" ink on the finger can help stop the multiple-vote people...

Perhaps the utility bill can help with the folks with no ID. The database would show if the person on the utility bill voted already or not.

But what of those eligible voters that live in a house where the utility bill is in someone else's name? Like a parent, or perhaps a domestic partner?

Splitting hairs on how to make everyone eligible to vote is a great thought experiment, but I doubt it amounts to a substantial percentage of voters who would otherwise be able to cast ballots?

About 3000 hours if your traveling at an average of 600 mph. Rough numbers.

It was really sort of a rhetorical question, lol...

Mike

but whats the issue you are trying to solve? What are the numbers behind it? Is it worth disenfranchising 3.3 million voters to fix it?

Maybe. How many do you disenfranchise by not cleaning this up?

Again, lots of people already think voting is fixed, I don't think we don't should wait to prove that it is.

Just for the record, I'm not completely convinced that there's a problem where I live (or I would have stopped voting long ago), but I don't assume everything runs as smoothly everywhere.

Mike

Ok..

what is your definition of disenfranchise?

What exactly is there to clean up?

What is the basis for thinking that voting is "fixed"... by whom and how?

I've already covered my thoughts on these questions earlier in the thread...

Mike

How do you, Mike, personally LOSE your franchise to vote... Say, I wander up to your township and find a way to cast a vote?

the notion of franchise is not some zero sum game as you are implying......my action has no effect on your behavior or properly recorded vote. your franchise is not effected.

It is like your franchise to free speech in the public square... I have NOTHING to do with your franchise... Now, i can shout and shout you down but you still have the franchise to free speech. I have disrupted the listeners by my shouting..but your franchise is not impacted. (only the government could shut you down... BUT we have a constitution that protects that right... unlike say the Brits)

You conflate the franchise to vote and to free speech with a preferred result. Your team wins the election OR your listeners get to hear your speech.

Trump makes the same error. The Russians did lots of things to sway the election for Trump.... Trump thinks that people will assume that the russians took away their franchise to vote. Liberals think that the russians took away THEIR franchise to vote.... Both argue that Trumps victory is or is not legit BUT... it doesn't work that way!

In fact... you can make a VERY STRONG case that the republican actions in Florida in 2000 actually took away FLA voters franchise. They argued that hanging chads were not votes and in fact argued that those ballots should not be counted... Now THAT was disenfranchisement.

Closing a polling place early or having half the machines broken are cases of disenfranchisement. NOT YOURS.... its the voter who CAN't vote that is impacted

Your argument

is not an argument... just a complaint that you MIGHT not get your desired result.

I'm an enigma in your fight. I actually don't care who wins (especially this last election), I only care that the results are correct, based on actual citizens voting. Sorry if I didn't somehow make that point clearly enough

Mike

Once again.... fuzzy thinking... What do you mean by "correct" (This is what you are not clear about)

fair? honest? duly recorded? your side wins? Puerto Ricans can vote? Dual citizens can vote? the idiots can't, the mentally incompetent don't vote? ONLY people who can make it to a polling place? slaves don't vote? woman don't vote? non property owners don't vote? uneducated don't vote? You must be able to read to vote? Or... the position you seem to fix on... must have a photo ID.

Some of my possible answers to your request of "correct" are fuzzy eg FAIR... others are specific eg woman can't vote! Some have been rectified and other issues... nominally rectified. (see voting rights act) All have to stand up to the test of... Is this a barrier to YOUR franchise to vote.

The problem you seem unwilling to address is that the gap between "correct" and "franchise to vote in a democracy by citizens" is enormous and the issue is... what are the details?.

I repeat... NO ONE in the debate is saying non citizens should have "no" barrier to voting. Lord knows... they can politic in elections just like citizens and hope to influence your vote. (see Russia and Israel, and many other countries)

The only completely accurate system with integrity would be for EVERY man woman and child in the country to have a single government issued ID card (aka passport) updated every XXX years and show that along with local address documentation to VOTE. This system eliminates the gap between "correct" and "actual citizens" voting

Short of that... what trade-offs do you want to make? and what set of facts supports the need for your system and would explain what you mean by "correct"?

Why does your argument have to include so many negatives. I neither said, nor implied, nor believe any of those horrible things.

If the poor folks volunteering to work at the poll can't figure out if Voter X is a citizen, we have a problem.

If you're happy that the current system can do that, fine. I don't think everyone shares that opinion. Even if it's fake news, or whatever, this is something that we should be able to handle at this point in history.

Mike

This nicely sums up the intelligentsia that have fought tooth and nail against the ACA/Obamacare. The stoopid is strong in this one.

This Image Explains The ACA Debate I Hear Every Day

Mike,

The people at the polls are not Carnac the magnificent... they can't suss out.. who is and who is not a legal voter.. All they can do... is enforce the current set of rules. In this country... each state and locale sets the rules and history has shown that many tilt the playing field against some classes of voters. I have seen NO evidence that Poll workers are raising alarm bells about illegal voters and their inability to run an election by the letter AND spirit of the law. However, politicians and power brokers use the issue to gain power.

So... we DON'T have a problem at the polls experienced by poll workers ...... we have lots of noise about an unproven problem... that nobody can measure the amount of or ID the actual perps and then prosecute them. Moreover, these states put in place barriers that disenfranchise legitimate voters. A true Flim Flam.. The federal courts have tossed many of these rules out the window. The fight continues because its just about power and money.

I am not arguing that you in fact believe many of those issues. Don't throw up a red herring...
Of course you recognize American History and these were issues that faced the country... and slowly but surely (major war involved for one of them ...) we resolved most of these issues. Again, history shows that the arguments against members of the community being granted full CITIZENSHIP were mostly self serving power grabs by the powers in charge. Of course,they wrapped their crap argument in nice words to justify their position as fair, reasonable and of course... all American.

So, is history repeating itself? ..

Is the current noisy campaign about the supposed lack of integrity in the voting system... and the FRAUD we supposedly suffer... a legit issue... or just the usual trojan horse for yet another power grab.

the problem you have is... You take as evidence that "many people are of the OPINION that there is a problem of in person voter fraud.

I have one friend who argues... well... OK... in North Carolina... it's clearly racist actions to cut the blacks out.. BUT in Southern CAl... his cousins tell him how bad the mexican voter fraud problem is... and THAT is where the real problem is... and well... you can't prove it.. (for some reason) His "logic" is identical to yours. So, the rules to stop it are "justified".

Opinions are not facts, evidence, or proof.... When you base your stand on opinion and look the other way at the evidence for disenfranchisement... you are in the same boat as all those citizens who argued that... blacks should not vote, ditto woman, etc etc etc. Doesn't really matter if you believe that crap or not. You are in the boat with all of the others.

Yours is not a principled argument (that is OK)... its just an expression of majority rules politics wrapped in face saving rhetoric that shows that you are "fair minded" and "really" a proponent of common sense solutions.
Is that where you want to be?

I challenge all the posters on the subject of voting to go to the classes and become a poll worker and then report on what they have seen.

Mark, you make sense until you start wrapping the hatred and problems of the past and bigger "power players" into the argument. Now I can't have an opinion that our system could use enhancement without being accused, or at least associated with, evil and second-handedness?

And I'm the one with the problem?

I have no secret agenda, and generally despise politics. The only votes I don't want counted are fraudulent ones.

I already told you what they do in my town, and I don't think it's fair. Send in a census by mail, walk right in, give your name and address and vote. No census, go show your ID to a separate desk and get back in line. Sure, this is better than nothing, and probably eliminates most fraud, but seems like a double standard (some show IDs, others don't).

Again, I don't think we have a problem yet (at least not enough to actually change a result), but why wait until we can prove an election was rigged? That would be a mess from which we'd never want to have to recover.

Mike

This is why we are at an impasse. There is NO actual evidence of a problem but there are drastic changes taking place to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Those drastic changes are tilting the ability of people to vote unanimously in favor of republicans. You don't see this as a gigantic problem and threat to democracy? C'mon guys, you at least have to know that there is a problem before you justify messing with voting rights or you just need to admit that the system is being changed/rigged to favor one party over the other. THIS action is what is rigging the votes - you can't see that?

You are taking it on "faith" that there is some non-quantifiable problem with voting that can only be fixed by eliminating a certain category of voter that just happens to tilt the voting in your favor...That's koolaid drink turning into serious landscape changing activity. That's scary stuff.

Actually, Mike, the poll workers only have to verify that the person standing in front of them is ELIGIBLE to vote. It's not our job to determine WHY (as in, citizen or whatever).

And to Jake's point, we are discussing ways to bring in that last (estimated) 1% of the people who COULD be eligible to vote but for some reason AREN'T able to vote (transportation, identification, etc).

Does missing this 1% disinfranchise the 99%? Not sure.

I can't personally believe that the low overall voter turnout numbers are only due to the problem of getting those few that slip through the cracks a ballot...

What was the turnout this election cycle (eligible voters vs. those that actually voted)? Maybe 50%-60%?

As hotly contested and vitriolic as it was, you'd think the turnout to vote (by mail, in person, etc) would be higher. Especially given how many people have made comments about the election. So it's not like this was one of those election dates that people forgot about.

So in my mind, there are other reasons people don't exercise their right to select leadership. Not because they can't find a way to cast a ballot.

Your thoughts?

Good points. The registration process should determine who's eligible (citizen or not), correct?

Turnout is never 99% (missing just the 1% you mentioned).

I think this past election drove us into four groups: Those who voted for Trump (or against Hillary), those who voted for Hillary (or against Trump), those who thought they were both bad, but voted for who they thought would do the least damage, and those who were so disgusted with the choices that they just stayed home.

I think the last group was bigger than usual, and probably answers to your question. There are always people who stay home because they don't think their vote counts (like if you live in a state that one party "always" wins, and you'd prefer the opposite candidate).


BTW, how many homeless/jobless people are actually registering and voting? I think both sides are coming up with some pretty implausible arguments.

Mike

I would agree with you Mike.

It seems that everyone's upset based on the results rather than a particular issue with the process. But they blame the process as "rigged". As of yet, I haven't seen any credible (or even plausible) theory on how it was rigged.

We got on a tangent regarding people and their ability to vote, but I think we can agree that those who weren't able to vote were overshadowed by those who chose not to vote.

Maybe I've missed an important topic as to date I haven't read the details on how this election process was rigged (other than disinformation campaigns and allegations of "Pay to stay home" campaigns).

It's not implausable. In fact, the only actual fact that has come up on this topic is the number of voters that don't have the ID's to vote in their areas. You can't gloss this over:

From HERE
A federal court in Texas found that 608,470 registered voters don’t have the forms of identification that the state now requires for voting.

...

Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.



From HERE

The 2001 Carter-Ford Commission on Election Reform found that between 6-11 percent of voting-age citizens lack driver’s license or alternate state-issued photo ID.
A 2007 Indiana survey found that roughly 13 percent of registered Indiana voters lack an Indiana driver’s license or an alternate Indiana-issued photo ID.
In a 2009 study in Indiana, Professors Matt Barreto, Stephen Nuño, and Gabriel Sanchez found that election restrictions like voter ID laws have the greatest impact on the elderly, racial and ethnic minorities, immigrants, those with less educational attainment and lower incomes. The professors found that of the citizen adult population, 81.4% of all white eligible adults had access to a driver’s license, whereas only 55.2% of black eligible adults had the same access. Indeed, study after study has similarly concluded that burdens to voting have a large and disparate impact on individuals with fewer resources, less education, smaller social networks, and those who are institutionally isolated.
The 2007 study, Voter ID Requirements and the Disenfranchisement of Latino, Black, and Asian Voters, based on exit polls from the 2006 elections in California, New Mexico, and Washington State, found that minority voters are less likely than whites to be able to present photo identification.
Many citizens who believe they have valid and sufficient photo IDs often do not. A national survey conducted after the November 2008 election found that 95% of respondents claimed to have a driver’s license, but 16% of those respondents lacked a license that was both current and valid. So of the of Americans who possess a photo ID, many lack proper identification that would enable to them to vote in elections under the new laws passed in Wisconsin, Kansas, Texas, South Carolina, and under legislation pending in many more states.


Additional studies and research findings on voter ID are collected here .


The voter fraud "problem" is made up. The number of people without IDs is not.

It's all garbage, on both sides.

We need politicians worth our votes, then people will make the effort to register and vote. Even if that means getting an ID.

Mike

Mikes starts with a principled and truly American stand that American citizens and only American citizens should determine their future by casting legal and proper ballots. He doesn't pay attention to the specifics about how the principle actually works out in the real world and doesn't want to think critically about the policies.

Over the course of US history... we have patched the constitution up to reflect this principled ideal.... the patches are reactions to the power politics of each era. At any moment in US History... on the ground.... the American principle is just a fig leaf to mask power politics that gain you power. The patches come about when those politics are defeated.


No!
the voting ID thing has been going on for 10+ years as part of a deliberate republican strategy of voter suppression to maximize their results. Many of the photo ID court cases predate the supreme courts decision on voting rights title 9? (pre clearance). The southern states were held back from these campaigns because of (pre clearance rules) ergo... North Carolina's situation.

Same as it every was.... take the American principle and use it to mask your power politics game.

If you had not noticed the attack on voting rights aka voter suppression... ... you simply were not the target... and had the luxury of being ignorant about the power politics at work. (remember... it's not a zero sum game here)

The basic idea is the same ol same ol.... Group X is taking the goodies from god fearing true American patriots. So, by god... vote for us and we will stop it... This is human nature...... You can disguise this motivation by attempting to wrap it up in the american ideal of voting and democracy... but its just a racket. Power politics wrapped up language that allows you to pretend that you are indeed principled and truly american.

There is nothing principled about voter photo ID.. it is just the latest strategy in voter suppression to win and hold power. What is needed is critical thinking by each voter if you want to go back to taking a principled American stand....

Step one in the critical thinking process is... what is the data... How good are the measurements and what is the weakness of the data. Jake nicely sums up the available data.

You can question the data collection, statistical analysis, relevance etc etc.. to sort out the actual reality... but you need to have much more then..
or as my friend uses... anecdotal opinions about illegal Mexicans voting in So Cal. This is critical thinking!

AND... nothing says that you have to take an AMERICAN principled stand on these issues.. It is the USA. you can stand up an say... I am a Zionist... uber Israel... I am a White Nationalist (uber David Duke and the KKK) ... i am a black nationalist (uber the black muslims and Farrakhan)...or I am a Bernie supporter... uber Democratic Socialism... or simply HEY, get real.... its about winning... I want mine! do what ever it takes.

Finally,


Negative campaigning works, (as old as the country) Voter suppression works as well (an equal ugly record), moreover, the degree to which voter suppression and negative campaigning drive voter disgust with the entire process is a major factor in the embarrassing (for the supposed premier democracy on the planet) voter participation rates. ("It's rigged"... is just more bs that lets the voter off the hook by blaming "others" or... the whine... "we just need better candidates" Nope... its the voters responsibility...)

I premised my stand on "American citizens and only American citizens should determine their future by casting legal and proper ballots" and the standard... the will of the people will carry the day. Sadly, this is JUST NOT REALTY. What we are upset about is how disinformation and propaganda marshaled by the international right wing AND coupled with negative campaigning, character assassination, and voter suppression are able to impact a minority of the voters in a quirky system to take power.

All I can do.. is point out the fuzzy thinking at play that led to 48% of the country calling the shots for the 51% of the country of voters ... not to mention the enormous number of citizen non voters.

"...moreover, the degree to which voter suppression and negative campaigning drive voter disgust with the entire process is a major factor in the embarrassing (for the supposed premier democracy on the planet) voter participation rates."

Mark, on this, we fully agree.

There's just too much paranoia and vitriol in the rest. Stop insulting people who have a different opinion than yours.

Mike

Don't have a photo/signature ID? THEN VOTE BY MAIL

See the attached Florida voter registration form. It DOES NOT REQUIRE anything other than social security number....

You get your ballot by mail, so I guess you can't be homeless...

Only those folk who choose to show up at the voting station would need to show ID to prove who they are.

Perhaps that helps circumvent the "poll tax" argument and the barrier to voter registration? Voter registration form

Mike... this is a debate... I am not intending to insult you... I am challenging your position at the level of facts with respect to your belief that your position is constitutional and "American"...

My inferences are perhaps ugly... but follow from the argument and are an attempt to persuade you of the fall out from your position.

If you agree with Jake's set of facts... and then form an opinion after that.... I want to understand how you get there. What is the reasoning.. I may or may not agree... but first step is to understand what the reasoning you are using is. After this last election... I refuse to let fuzzy thinking pass.

Or you don't agree with Jakes facts... then I want to know what you are basing your opinion on. Data that I don't know about? Data that i don't find valid?, anecdotes from your part of the country?, fox news?, what ever... If your position is not supported by facts.... all I can do is point this out and note that its unprincipled and factually not supportable. (that is not paranoia or vitriol)

As I repeatedly note... its a free country... you stand for any principal and opinion on any basis you want... but... if you enter the debate... the game is ... you get to defend it. I suggested a range of other principled positions... some particularly odious. All of those principled positions don't speak to the AMERICAN Principle of voting/citizenship. So Why raise them? Not to insult you or infer that you support any of them. .... but to point out the basic requirement: Sure, you can SAY you hold the shared American principle, but presumably your argument on the voting issue is logical. A shared principle not supported by reality in facts or by action is a waste of energy (So... once again,... what is the logic in your position?)

So, please explain why you find this debate paranoiac or vitriolic? I draw harsh inferences and point them out... but that is NOT saying that is your position Its a debate the contrast is needed to focus the argument that a principled position is founded on facts supporting your principles... you get to counter and argue a position as well.!

Consider this alternative to principled voting.
My sister voted for trump.... when I asked why... she said... I don't know anything about any of these policies ... either Clinton or Trump... but I want a change and he is different. So, she makes no argument... she makes no pretense of standing on a principle of any kind... She makes no attempt to persuade or justify her vote on any principled ground.
So, if she is not standing on principle... she is voting a value. OK, what does she value in voting? The only value that she expressed was ... she values change? When you ask her... what change does she wants to see?.... She said... too many "poor black and uneducated white people" are now showing up in her hospital because of obamacare. I asked... what is the problem... Too many poor people?... or too much medical care?.... She had no thoughtful answer beyond both! AND that is OK!.. She just wanted a change... and to hope for "better" whatever that is. It doesn't have to make sense either... That is the thing about values... they are what they are... They are not persuasive,don't have to make a bit of sense or be based in reality (of course there is more of a chance they are shared values if based in reality) and what you value can change in an instant.

So, not much to debate with my sister and thus learn from her. She does not have a logical position... there is not much to learn from in her experience living in the country... and no chance that any argument of any kind could change her opinion.

Since, I know my sister from her beginnings... I was not surprised... Why did I bother?... Because, my civics education stressed responsibility to vote... and the other part... you must be responsible for your vote.. The point I make to my sister is... OK... I got it... you voted on what you value. So... you voted... that is half of your citizen responsibility. Good news!, you are responsible for Trump and his politics and actions going forward. (and if you did not vote... you are saying... whomever wins... well that is OK with you) All of us, trump voter, clinton voter and the feckless who did not vote or voted otherwise are responsible.

So, If Trump takes action on starting the torture process back up (as he repeatedly promised) ... He does it in the name of the USA and we are responsible. You can't wiggle out of responsibility for your vote. You have to own it...

So, while I may disagree with Obama on some decisions.... I understand his principles, hold most of them as well and I can argue from the facts in the real world, applying my principles and supporting my opinion and Obama's actions.

Jay, your point is just a work around for the possible disenfranchisement. Not a problem, it works,... just not the point and does not address the fairness component.

The state of Washington has NO polling places... all voting is by mail. Problem solved...everyone is equal... nobody is disenfranchised but again..that is not really the point.

The game being played is how to disenfranchise some voters to gain an edge in particular states ... power politics wrapped up in a warm fuzzy blanket of American Principles.

This is NOT a game of how to make a bullet proof and fair system that removes barriers to the full exercise of citizenship.

So far... we have solutions the fully enfranchise all voters... they are.

Vote by mail, all citizens,.... State of Washington.

Or National ID system that is mandatory and free to all citizens.

Almost all of the new laws go in the opposite direction.
As several courts have judged.

Bump

bump

Did this thread really need a bump?

I personally prefer the vote-by-mail process Mark. Not sure why we even need the physical polling stations and all the associated hassle.

A very good question I will pose to the supervisor of elections.

I guess my follow-up to your point on voting by mail is how does one go about registering to get such a ballot, and what does one need to do to prove they are eligible to vote?

Quote of the year...

Mike

Haha not for me to moderate but to be honest more talk on this thread that on any other, it will sink when more people talk sailing, RIP Rick

Ah.... there again is the issue. Voting registration is up to each state and ... you can play games at the registration of voting level as well. The difference is.. disputes have time to be sorted out.

RE: 100 percent mail ballots
People think there is something important about election day Its the way it has always been...Something about civics of the crowds in voting..lines etc etc... BECAUSE!.. And of course "Last minute bombshells" are able to shift results.
Remember... Comey weighed into this election for the THIRD time... two or so days before hand. The Bush drunken driving charge was two weeks etc etc... Politicians like the high stakes of VOTING DAY.. Data show... that if your football team wins the Sunday before... the more likely you vote the incumbent. Passions carry the day.... The Princeton Poly sci group say FBI's Comey's 2nd intervention caused a 4 percent swing.... of which 2 percent held through election day.

So, I agree the uniform vote by mail is a preferable system. The argument against it... is... What happens with late breaking information that could change your vote.... Don't we NEED a polling station.. My answer... Its like your taxes... postmarked by such and such a day and time... ITS A VOTE... it gets counted. Otherwise its a spoiled ballot... So... you could wait to the very very last minute if that is what you want... Otherwise... the first count of votes is issued on election night. And in tight races... whenever everything gets counted...

Ooooh, a little gem in there Mark... "spoiled ballot"...

So if you vote by mail you only get one shot to fill it out as you want it. If you screw it up (fill it out wrong - can't be in pencil) or mark it up so it's not read... you can't ask to get another mailed to you...


Another question I'm asking the elections supervisor: If you "spoil" a vote-by-mail ballot, can you see when/why it wasn't tabulated, and can you do anything about it (like vote in person)...?

I believe the mail ballots aren't counted until after election date so if they're f'd up then you don't get a re-do.

If you vote in person and by mail (the database tells you that a ballot was mailed) you commit fraud

Hmm... voter error ??

I have to admit... I have clicked enter on the voting machine and then had a brief panic attack that I filled it out incorrectly as I walk away.

In my states machine era... You clicked enter and that was a final decision. No oops... I want a redo opportunity.

In my states scantron era... I don't know... If you walk up with a ballot that you have not scanned and spoiled in some way... I would assume... they record destroying the bad one and give you another go... Once it enters the scanner... finished..

I take the word "cast" as meaning a once and done final decision.... No Redos.... So... I cast my vote by postmarking it. hitting enter on the machine... or stuffing it into the scanner.

So, I would imagine... IF you want a redo of your spoiled ballot that is still in your possession... you get a redo. Once you post mark it... or scan it... or click enter... You are finished.

Personally, I don't see how "Rules" on the orderly management of vote collection are in any way disenfranchising a voter. Do you have an argument on this issue that I am missing?

The small d democratic principle is that citizens have the right and duty to vote and the state has the responsibility to maximize the opportunity to vote and conduct the voting fairly.. with out disenfranchising anyone... or favoring one party.

in this light.... "to cast" is a final irrevocable action and small d democratic.

One interesting thought came up.... If you have mail in ballots... How do you ensure privacy... How far must the state go to allow you /ensure that you CAN vote in privacy.. If you mail ballots to husband and wife... What stops one individual from coercing the other to vote a certain way. Should the state HAVE to provide a public polling place?

Uhhh, no.

Not if that means getting an ID. It changes the rules and excludes a very certain demographic from voting, for no good reason other than tilting the vote in a particular flavor. It's not complicated. It's evil. Stop changing the rules that don't need to be changed. There is no fraudulent voting of any scale that makes changing these rules necessary. The line of thinking that there is fraud that must be fixed by requiring IDs is a lie. Plain and simple. That lie is created to make it harder for a certain demographic to place a vote. That benefits the people that are continuing the lie. This isn't complicated.

I'm easy to convince that IDs are necessary. Just show me where the actual fraud is that these rules will protect us from. Certainly you would agree, that given the amount of energy put into these ID laws, that if there was wide scale voter ID fraud that was swinging elections that it would be pretty easy to detect and show. Nobody has been able to do that - why? It's a lie.

Yup. If you marked it wrong, you "spoil" that one and get a new one (subject to a max of 3 tries).

If it won't go in the scantron (keeps getting pushed back) you get to keep trying until it works (the voter is the only one handling the ballot). But once accepted your vote is "cast" and you are done.


On the privacy at home voting thing, you have an envelope for the ballot that goes in the mailing envelope. So I guess you could vote your conscience and then seal it up so your spouse can't get eyes on it...

and good point Jake.

If you didn't see earlier our state's voter registration form doesn't require any ID other than knowing your SSN.

These forms are available on the web, libraries, at any election/driver license office, and are handed out on a regular basis by any political activity group.

So perhaps that might ease (or eliminate) the "poll tax" argument.

Although you do have to mail your ballot which is something like $0.60 now?

Agreed. I'm done here. Hopefully this dies faster than the drill thread.

I respect that there are those here with a different opinion on this topic than mine. Hopefully the feeling is mutual.

Mike

Nope... no pass... on the can't we just set aside our differences of opinion.

Mike, were it just a benign difference of opinion....
take a difference of opinion on war and peace... while in no way inconsequential, is ... just a difference of opinion. (I can respect your differing opinion and be done with it. Agree to disagree and all that... I will buy you a beer) You and I don't have any responsibility in that debate. War and peace is not a constitutional issue at the core of democracy.

We have a constitutional democracy which has over the years corrected itself to reflect our American Ideal with respect to citizenship and voting. We pledge allegiance to the constitution and we take responsibility as citizens to honor, preserve and protect the constitution and the rights that it bestows. George Washington and the other founders spoke about our interdependence in our democracy. So... at stake are the rights of other citizens to vote.

Yes, you have an opinion as to these voter photo id laws and their impact on some citizens in the country. I respect that part... However, unlike a difference of opinion on war and peace, etc. I ask you to consider your responsibility as a citizen to honor and uphold the constitution. Will you test your opinion against the reality? What facts do you have that voter photo ID laws are not taking away some people's constitutional rights? What facts of jake's do you discount?

See Jake's last post and address the facts as a responsible citizen.... Not just a citizen with opinions.

Remember, The civil war was not a difference of opinion... it was a constitutional crisis. Richard Nixon precipitated a constitutional crisis when he fired all of those people at justice (separation of powers). These were not just differences of opinion. Citizens had the responsibility to resolve the issue. (eg slavery/secession and the president must obey the law)

Trumps pretty powerful, with one tweet that the new fighter was no good, he got our parliament to start looking for a new fighter

bump, more sailing threads if you want this one gone

Why am I so fired up about just an "opinion" about what is at the core of a democratic republic, "voting rights".

George Bush's speech writer, Michael Gerson, wrote this this AM.



Voting Rights are fundamental to America... We have a responsibility to protect them by debunking the noise that fuels "opinion" and remind everyone that citizen is the most powerful position in a democracy and with citizenship comes responsibility (cribbed bits from current AG).

the one with audio is much better ;-)

Only 3 more days until MAGA

I had to clarify my earlier posts that photo ID is only required to vote in person.

A photo ID is NOT required to register to vote (or vote by mail) in my state.

See below, I had to steal Jake's coding to get it to load, thanks Jake.

I like this one better still...but...

"I am not talking about the pee pee!"

Only 2 more days to go until MAGA

Is this really the best you guys could come up with?
He didn't even know how many countries make up Europe (something that a US president really should know IMO).

He is also becoming aware that companies are using him to recycle their old business news for cheap PR (companies don't do $1B investments decisions in a week).

Ya see Tony facts and intelligence are no longer relevant. Trump has promised to make white people great again and that's all that matters so anything Trump says or does is acceptable because it's all part of the plan to make Merica white and christian the way god intended!

#peepeeparty #grabthembythepussy

300 million people and Trump and Clinton were our only choices... yes it is pretty sad...

This was an opportunity for a third party to really shine and what did they do with their candidates... shinola comes to mind.