Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic)

Has anyone seen both in person? How identical/similar/different are the boats from these manufacturers?

Never heard of Dynautics.

They're in Holland (Google Dynautic to find their site, then click on the English language link). Their hulls look a bit different from those on the Vectorworks version. The beams/tramp sit on a recessed section of hull relative to the section forward of the front beam. Was curious about the effect of this, and any other differences in the designs.

Really a question for the Euro folks (Wouter, etc.) as I doubt any Dynautic boats have made it to the US, but I know the opposite is not the case.

Phill, what is your reply to this ?

Wouter

Stuart,

I've not seen both boats either but they are of the same design, there may be some cosmetic differences.

Your best bet would be to contact each builder and get specific information on the fine details.


Regards,
Phill

Was Victorworks the ones having issues with rudder mechanism? What's Dynautic using? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Vectorworks now offer two options for the rudder mechanisms: a custom rope-operated system, or the rod system from Catamaranparts (standard on European Vectorworks Blades).

As far as I can tell users of boths systems are very happy with them, and the choice comes down to personal preference. Vectorworks have admitted that the original rudder were not up to scratch, and they no longer use that supplier. It's probably about time to stop dragging up this historical point.

As for Dynautic - I don't know what they're using, but from the photos it looks like a rod system with carbon stocks. Perhaps AHPC?

Paul

The big difference is that the Dynautic boats are made from ply, whereas Vectorworks are fibreglass.

Paul

It must be carbon-ply then.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ref: http://www.dynautic.com/IntroNL.html
There is a slideshow running to the left, and it looks a lot like a carbon sandwich building process.

Interesting. I'm pretty certain that the red/orange boat on their website is ply, and this is certainly funny looking carbon:

http://www.dynautic.com/Slideshow1.swf

But you're right: it seems that they are producing carbon/epoxy boats.

Paul

They probably did a ply boat for testing, and a plug, before they invested time and money on production moulds.

I have had no builder related problems with the Vectorworks system. However, I have two distinct operator problems! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Launching in surf; and kicking the lock open while sailing.

I think the Dynautics ruddersystem may be easier for ME to operate. If it isn't too costly, I will convert.

IMO, this is one of the nice things about our class, i.e. the freedom to customize according to personal sailing habits. If I understand correctly, SMOD doesn't permit this.

Hi there,
as Dynautic's first customer for the Blade i may add some comments here:
The orange Blade is made of plywood, i had a test sail on it. Like many others who tried the Blade i was very impressed about the Cat and placed my order.
First Dynautic intended to make the hulls in plywood carbon, for maximum stiffness and dent resistance. This was the main difference at that time to the other builder, Vectorworks.
But as there was no experience with this composite structure, Phill the Blade designer convinced Dynautic to build the first hulls with foam core for reliability reasons.
Now a high-density foam core is used, with pre preg carbon layers. Denting is also no issue, i saw someone hammering on the composite with no effect on the surface.

For the rudders there are some options now. The orange plywood Blade had a AHPC rudder system, which pros and cons are well known.
I decided for another one, made by a local supplier to me, shake design in Hamburg/Germany. Supports regional business, and spare parts mustn't shipped around halve the earth to me. On their website you can see an A-Cat rudder, similar to the F16 system which is now in design process. The head will be stronger with the tiller fixed to both sides of the rudderblade. The rudder will get a 20% larger surface compared to A-Cat and is then also used for F18ht. The stern at the Blade is higher with more volume compared to A-Cat or F18, so we chose the F18ht type that spinout problems shouldn't occur with this setup.
see:http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/94003-F18ht-1.pdf

Now the moulds for the rudder are 3D-modelled and then CNC milled. At beginning of march my rudders will be available, hopefully together with the gray carbon Blade you can see on the Dynautic website.
links:
www.dynautic.com
www.shakedesign.de/rudder.htm

Holger

I would use the Nacra rudder system, that is also used on the Eagle cats, this system is perfect (for me)

not to say that other rudder systems are bad!

It most definately did NOT have the AHPC rudders. Those would have worked, is that other type, Robi named the supplier in his post earlier.

Looking forward to seeing you and your boat at Zandvoort Holger.


Wouter

Indeed i have to correct this, the rudders on the orange Blade were made by a former worker at AHPC who started for himself. But regardless who makes the rod system, i don't like it for myself.
The system at my former Nacra500 worked always fine, but for a F16 it is a bit overdimensioned and heavy. Let's see how the new System behaves, i'll keep you informed...
Holger

See attachment for the nacra rudders system on an Eagle

and more here
http://www.h2o-sensations.com/galleryh2o/thumbnails.php?album=17

Some Differences between Vectorworks and Dynautic Blades.
Vinylester vs Epoxy
Glass vs Carbon
Round keel vs flat keel
screws vs nuts n bolts
x bulkheads vs more bulkheads
x stringers vs more stringers
No thanks vs YES please!

This could be informative, if you weren’t being so vague, perhaps you’d care to elaborate? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, we'll see both builds next to one another at the Zandvoort event in 5 months time so we can indeed directly compare the two.

Mirjam, are you coming ?

Wouter

Well, we'll see both builds next to one another at the Zandvoort event in 5 months time so we can indeed directly compare the two.

Mirjam, are you coming ?

Wouter

No experience sailing on the North-sea and no time, perhaps my father will be there.

Nothing vaque about it. Just a couple of cosmetic differences.

Is "No thanks vs YES please!" a cosmetic deference or are you expressing an opinion based on something? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Quote:???
1. screws vs nuts n bolts
x bulkheads vs more bulkheads
x stringers vs more stringers

Mirjam,
If have to make a comment on this but you are saying on point 1 screws vs nuts and bolts but you did not see the European style VWM Blade yet i think.
About the bulkheads and stringers it looks to me that you know how the VWM hulls are build but before you saying this please be carefull with that because you obviously don't know how they are build.
It is not difficult to have comments on something but if you do there must be a good foundation for it, i personally think.

Regards,
Hans

The proof is in the pudding. Until some one sails a Dynautic against a Vectorworks, it's all opinion.

Vectorworks molds were shaped by a 5 axis CNC router, were the Dynautic molds?

Regards,
Bob

Just guessing but maybe that would explain the "Round keel vs flat keel" approach… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If the boats are within a few percent in speed, it will be the best skipper that wins. If you want people to think your boat is the best, don't worry too much about building it the best, just make sure you put the best skippers on it.

Lets face it, a skipper looking to enter the F16 class with a view to winning is most likely to buy whatever boat is winning the most regatta's. They won't be looking to see which boat has the most bulkheads and could care less if the mold was made from a plywood plug or a milled foam plug.

Winners in every area of life know that winning is in the details. If one could get a mathematically accurate hull from a plug with extreme accuracy in symmetry, and a true representation of the designers concept, I would say all things being equal, a "winner would seek out such an advantage. While your "average" sailor would blow it off as unimportant. Yes top sailors could win most races on a door, broom stick and sheet for a sail...but when top competitors are competing against each other they look for every advantage.

Regards,
Bob

I'm just mentioning some differences between Dynautic and the boat I've seen in Katwijk some time ago I must add. I've also seen pictures from Florida before you were a dealer. From the info I have seen I noted the differences. As pictures speak louder than words....

P.S. Was this a personal, chairman, dealer or orginiser comment?

Mirjan,




Were is this line of reasoning exactly going to ?

I've seen both makes in detail and I can name a few more differences not all in favour of the Dynautic Blade. Afterall no boat is ever perfect.

The European style VWM Blade F16 (version 2007) Hans is referring to is not the same as the 2005 VWM Blade F16 you saw at Noordwijk. Hans used his many years of experience in boat building and repairs to arrive at this 2007 version of the VWM Blade F16. There are some very clever things incorporated in this new version. Things like platform stiffness have been doubled.

You can not possibly know the make-up of this 2007 version of the Blade F16 or even of the 2006 version of it. Therefor your comments like :"bulkheads vs more bulkheads" are remarkable to say the least.

I can testify that Hans is correct in all his comments so far and that your statements are less so.

Who are you exactly ?

And I made these statement in name of all the roles I have played in the past. Chairman, organisor, part time dealor, advisor to both VWM and Dynautic, and the rest.

Wouter

I didn't see any boat in Noordwijk but in Katwijk. The boats owner is called Jaap as I've been told. According to my information you have been at Dynautic in 2004. At that time no composite Blade was present at Dynautic, so what are you talking about knowing Dynautic's products?
Your reaction is exactly what I've expected.
Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club?
I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation and an organiser of an event. Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.
I wasn't aware of any changes made in 2005 or 2006, so you are admitting the previous sold boats weren't that good afterall.
I'm just a student with ears and a memory.

Mirjam

That is true. Jaap H. is a member there, my typo.




That is not correct.

And alot more has happened then just having been there.




It is only you who is talking about 2004, not me.

With respect to the non-timber Blade, I have not seen that one in person, but then again who did ?




Like I said earlier were is this line of reasoning going to ?




This didn't bother Dynautic when I was doing the exact same things in relation to them.





You got yourt answer there. Any Watersport verbond measurer can do your boat. In laymans terms, you can choice any measurer you want, Pieter Saarberg happens to be a long time measurer of the Watersport verbond, it would have been downright silly to ban him from measuring F16's.



Are you claiming that the first boats by Dynautic were [censored] because they are now launching a totally redesigned carbon version ?





It is very nice of you to remind us of these traits, but I don't think anyone argued otherwise.

My question still remains.

Were are you going with this line of reasoning ?

If you have problems with the way things have turned as the are then please come to the zandvoort event and argue you case in front of the class members and people you accuse of having conflicts of interests. Currently you are nothing more then an anonymous handle on an internet forum. This is a status wholly unsatisfactory for the insinuations you are making.

Wouter

Come to Dynautic on tuesday 12:00 so you can meet me in person.
Tell me how to become a chairman and take my worries away.

Mirjam, just as ananymous as the rest of the forum.

LOL, "I challenge thou to a duel!" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(Guns or swords? (Blades?))

Mirjam,
When i did answer your first post i thought , this is giving some discussion but oke.When you put something down you must be having a good background for it and in my upinion you did not had that so i made the response.
I will answer the points you are reffering to , so the air will be cleared.

Quote: Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club.

I don't know why we are both members of the same club and he is driving a Nissan and i drive a Ford, i am member for 22 years of that club and Wouter became also member. So i don't see your point here.

Quote: I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation.

Yes i am trying to sell the VWM build hulls/boats and i think i am making good boats.Yes i am chairman of the F16GC
but you forget that i am not making the decisions on my own but i am controlled by the other members of the Governing Council and that there is a good coörporation between these people to make the F16 class a proffesional class and not to make the bussiness of somebody bigger.

QUOTE: and an organiser of an event

No, i am not organising the Global Challenge 2007 but the sailing club WVZ is organising the event.Yes, i do some advising to organisers to make the event as good as possible for the F16 boats, so that all the sailors who will come over make the event to a succes.

QUOTE:Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.

No,i am not doing the measurement/checking of the boats because i am not a measurer and have nothing to say about the measurements during the event. That's the reason why there is a chief measurer at the event. So i don't know who did tell you that i do the measurement but that person is wrong.

I think everything is clear for everybody now and that if you want to now more than ,again, please contact me and i will try to answer your questions.

Oh please! Boat builders and dealers have an interest in the promotion of the classes that they sell boats into. Everywhere you go in this sport you will find dealers and builders doing a huge amount of voluntary work to promote the classes that we enjoy sailing in. Last time I went to a UK F18 Nationals, it was sponsored by Hobie. Conflict of interest? The F18 international secretary general was, until recently, the UK Nacra representative. Conflict of interest?

Exactly what sort of conspiracy do you think is going on here? I bought my VWM Blade from Catamaranparts before the F16 association was formed, and before the Zandvoort event was even conceived. Are you seriously suggesting that there is some arrangement whereby VWM ship us slightly over-sized main sails or something so that us VWM Blade sailors can get a tiny, fractional advantage at this one event? Or is there some great conspiracy between Hans and the Zandvoort race committee to set courses that somehow favour VWM Blades over Dynautic Blades?

Or is your conspiracy theory more financial? That Piet Saarburg is going to retire on the proceeds of measuring F16s at Zandvoort, perhaps?

This class is run by volunteers, so rather than sitting around making up conspiracy theories about those people who are actually doing real work to get the class up and running, why not give them a hand and help out.

Paul

Yep, that's right! Just like the reason Hobie bring out minor refinements to the Tiger each year is because all the previous ones are crap.

Actually, it could be that VWM have now sold a decent number of Blades and have seen them sailed around the world in a wide range of conditions for several years and as a result the design has been refined and improved. I assume that the Dynautic Blades are perfect from the outset, and that there will never be any room for improvement.



No, somewhat more anonymous than the rest of the forum. Everyone else on this forum is open about their interests in particular boats. What exactly is your relationship to Dynautic?

Paul

< Some Differences between Vectorworks and Dynautic Blades.
Vinylester vs Epoxy, Glass vs Carbon, Round keel vs flat keel etc. >

What about price?
My guess for the Vectorworks Blade is EUR 13.000 (VAT included).
With all that carbon and the very expensive Shake Design carbon foils my estimate for the Dynautic Blade is EUR 16.000.
Does anyone know the right figures?
A wise price to performance ratio plays an important role in any boat choice.
I do not think that more carbon (on a relatively heavy boat such as the F16) should represent a seizable "quantum leap forward" in bootspeed

As if ... !




You could have been part of the selection proces itself if you had replied to the general call for volunteers and a new chairman in september, oktober and november 2005. Hans and the others did. Since Hans has been accepted as chairman he has a full right to finish his term and as such you can't become chairman right now. This proces will be repeated in the future and then you can take a shot at it.

Mind you, the highest entity in the class right now is the Governing Council consisting of 3 persons of which Hand is only one. These three all sail different types of F16's and don't share any loyalties. That should be more then enough to take your worries away.




I have a feeling that I'm much less anonymous then you are, the same applies to the members of the Governing Council. It is not for us to show up at your doorstep (? Dynautic ?) but for you to identify yourself in public. Either that or not make any insinuations / accusations. Your choice.

Wouter

Yes, and neither quote is correct. The VWM Blade is more expensive then that and the Dynautic Blade is cheaper.

Now I don't know who Mirjam is here, but I do think that this argument should not draw in both builders. Neither of these builder has contributed to this discussion and I don't think either of them support the positions taking in this thread. The argument seems to come down to somebody calling himself Mirjam and Hans/Governing Council. As such the builders are not involved.

Wouter

Mirjam is a male name in the Netherlands?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Have you used Google before? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&amp...sa=N&tab=wi

Right, that was what I tought, but when Mirjam was referenced to as "himself" I wondered if I had the wrong idea. Totally wrong idea.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am the owner of the boat that lies most of the summertime on the beach at Katwijk (Skuytevaert sailing club). This Blade was I believe one of the first five boats build by Vectorworks. You could say that it was a prototype, just as the Dynautic boat of Mirjam is by the way. I am pleased that the boat has been developed further since. It has not changed much of course, I believe the last version has now more buldheads and stringers <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Serious. Hans has made some improvements to my ancient Blade version to bring it up to standard. I seriously hope the Dynautic boat will be a succes because we all need more F16's on the water. More builders means better boats at a better price I was told at school long time ago. It is a pity that it took Dynautic so long to get the production started but I am indeed glad that he has survived so far and is now producing. I also hope that his learning curve is steep and that the boat of Mirjam is up to specification.

Jaap
who has seen already some UN-troops on the Dutch beaches to enforce peace on the North Sea

Jaap,

You are coming to the Zandvoor event right ?

Will you crew-up with your son ?

Wouter

While I find this thread mildy entertaining, I followed the link Tony gave above, and found this image which best describes most of the content of the thread so far.

I have indeed the intention to come to Zandvoort this year (with my son).

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> hate to say.. cosmetic differences..

Glad you like your toy.. Im sure others will like theirs.
Which is better? The one who has the better baboon hold the stick!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />