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Class business

Posted By: fin.

Class business - 02/19/08 01:24 PM

I hope all of you will make this one of your favorite threads, check it frequently and express yourselves often.

Please add it to your "favorite topics" on your "My Home" page.

What is ISAf? Why should I care? Should the class be part of it?
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Class business - 02/19/08 03:10 PM

This has been talked before and I think that people has not come up with good reasons being a ISAF class. I would guess though that certifications tend to give people assurance that class is run "certified" way and maybe it would shut up some of our critics points even if it wouldn't change anything <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Also we could have World championships after that (again just a name of an event).
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/19/08 03:14 PM

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the ISAF?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/19/08 03:17 PM


International Shark Attack File, ref: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Sharks/ISAF/ISAF.htm


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Class business - 02/19/08 03:17 PM

Quote
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the ISAF?


ISAF = The International Sailing Federation. Or is there something that I didn't understand with ISAf and your are making fun of me instead?-o
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Class business - 02/19/08 03:18 PM

Quote

International Shark Attack File, ref: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Sharks/ISAF/ISAF.htm


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Ahh, Rolf nailed it, I'm sorry to give false information <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:10 PM

I thought there was some angst involved here. Someone care to enlighten me.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:40 PM

ISAF is the International Sailing Federation. It claims to have complete control over sailing in all its forms all over the world.

ISAF is the organization that decided to eliminate the multihull from the Olympics for 2012.

I guess that should be enough to explain the angst.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:48 PM

US Sailing is the National Governing Body of sailing in the United States. They are kind of a subdivision of ISAF. The US Sailing delegates to ISAF were among those who voted to eliminate the multihull from the Olympics for 2012.

More angst. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:52 PM

Quote
. . .. It claims to have complete control over sailing in all its forms all over the world.

. . .


That's scarey. Is there a concise history of the group written down anywhere?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:52 PM

Okay, still on class business here, if an F16 Class has been established here in the United States, the class should join US Sailing (if it has not already done so). I don't know what it costs this year, but usually it is about $100.

Don't ask me WHY the class should join, because I have a really hard time with that question. I just think you should do it, at least right now, because it establishes some sort of national political credibility for the class.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 01:54 PM

I think we have. Tshan would know.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 02:06 PM

Quote
Quote
. . .. It claims to have complete control over sailing in all its forms all over the world.

. . .


That's scarey. Is there a concise history of the group written down anywhere?


You can find the history at the ISAF web site, www.sailing.org, and then click on "About ISAF"
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 02:16 PM

Class associations belonging to a local governing body is different thing than being a ISAF class, meaning that we can be part of ISAF but we don't fulfill requirements of ISAF class. I'm not sure what all is required but I think most important things relate how class is managed. We do have GC and policies how class/rules is managed, so I guess that nothing much would change (I guess that we would pay more $'s). So being a ISAF class is like certifying that class has certain elements.

I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't get ISAF class status, before someone will clarify following things (without angst): what is required form us, costs involved and what would we gain.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 02:33 PM

I have never been able to find a good cost/benefit analysis on ISAF Recognized and ISAF International status for a class either. For me this question is a simple cost/benefit issue, even if I have my own opinions on ISAFs decision process and structure.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 02:35 PM

Joining your "local" country sailing association, like US Sailing here in the US, has nothing whatsoever to do with getting International Class status with ISAF.

I don't know why the F16 Class would want to become an International Class under ISAF rules, because then the class basically loses control over its own class, and every little change it might want to make in its rules has to be approved by ISAF. And manufacturers of that boat have to adhere to very strict standards as established and approved at the time the boat first becomes an International Class (unless you can get ISAF to approve a variation).
And in order to become an International Class you have to have X number of boats racing actively in X number of countries on X number of continents.

I haven't been able to figure out why any class would want to be an ISAF International Class except for the fact that ISAF will not allow a class to hold a World Championship if it is NOT an approved International Class.

ISAF claims to control the words "World" and "International" and anything that implies that something is of this world.

It is because of ISAF that the F16 Class is not able to have an International Class Association. That is not allowed by ISAF, since the F16 is not an International Class. That is why the F16 Class has a "Governing Council," to get around that "international" thing.

And that is why the F16's can't have a world championship and have to call it something else.

End of rant.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 02:47 PM

You say they claim control. Has there ever been an actual test? Were they ever granted an injunction? Awarded damages in a court?

It seems I'm getting a little far afield! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> This isn't really class business. I just wanted to bring myself up to date on the "world" view of sailing.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:06 PM

Pete, ISAF 'own' the sailing part of the Olympics as well as some of the major Ocean racing events. If they decide that you're not elegible to sail then you're not elegible to sail, end of. Generally speaking, sailors don't and haven't rocked the boat very much with them. Lately though there seems to be more questioning of what entitles ISAF to police sailing the way they do.

ISAF have a very strong voice and very powerful persons on board, they are involved in discussions at the highest levels all over the world. As networking goes ISAF is one of the finest tuned and most powerful.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:07 PM

This IS class business, because there may be people within the F16 Class who want it to become an ISAF International Class. It will be an ongoing debate within the class as to whether this would be helpful or detrimental to the F16 Class. The manufacturers are very much a factor in this kind of debate.

Hey, Pete, you are the one who started this "Class Business" thread, so don't blame me.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:14 PM

I know I started it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Was hoping to add some structure, perhaps halt some of the wrangling.

Let's get into it then. It appears the ISAF doesn't want multihulls, else they would have provided a spot in the Olympics or suggested some alternative format.

Additionally, I don't want anybody mucking around with my boat! I bought into the F16 class association and don't need any more authority.

That said, I oppose joing ISAF.

Discussion?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:28 PM

I hate to mention this, Pete, but it is hard for me to talk seriously to a chimp. Do you think you could change your avatar to resemble a human being? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:31 PM

Sorry! No can do! That's an orangutan. In one of the (Malay?) languages it means "old man of the forest" or some such. Hence, it is an integral part of my persona.

Besides, he sails the same way I do.

Attached picture 134292-avatar2fromRobi.jpg
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:38 PM

Pete,

why do you say no to ISAF recognized/international status when we dont know all the pros/cons? I dont know enough about the matter to make a decision even if I asked about this on the open forum earlier ref: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...9&an=0&page=3#Post123379

I have this feeling that there must be something I miss since "everybody" go with ISAF status except the 18foot skiffs. I think a pro/con analysis is what we need before we decide. Asking ISAF about the matter is probably also a good idea.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:43 PM

ALL of the information about getting ISAF Recognized or International Status is available at the ISAF web site, www.sailing.org

Wade through it, as I have, and come to your own conclusions.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:46 PM

I have done so several times earlier, but I was never satisfied with what I found out. It's a lot about the process and not much about what a class gains.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 04:47 PM

Rolf: Just a gut reaction. There has always been animosity between catamarans and the "traditional" sailing communities. The ISAF have dumped the Tornado, our oldest, most respected class, from the Olympics; and offered no alternative format. My conclusion is that they don't want us.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 05:02 PM

I find it very strange to be defending ISAF and ISAFs decisions! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The Tornado process was a PR disaster for ISAF. The event committee which have both olympic sailors and other ISAF representatives had a very long and serious debate about which events would be the best for sailing and the games. They proposed both a multihull and a high performance dinghy for women (kind of a 49er for women). It was the highest decision making body in ISAF, the ISAF Council ( http://sailing.org/555.php ) which choose to disregard the proposal from their own expert group and toss the Tornado out with the womens high performanceskiff. We know the rest of the story and ISAF is still paying for it. As you can see ISAF Council dont have many well known sailors amongst them but they do represent their countries sailing associations.

Would you be opposed to actually checking out what "ISAF Recognized" and "ISAF International" status have to offer?
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 05:06 PM

Quote
Rolf: Just a gut reaction. There has always been animosity between catamarans and the "traditional" sailing communities. The ISAF have dumped the Tornado, our oldest, most respected class, from the Olympics; and offered no alternative format. My conclusion is that they don't want us.


Multihulls were not singled out, we just ended up on the short end of the stick on 1 item where a group was asked to choose.

I had the same feeling about US sailing, especialy as they had a large influence in starting this whole issue. John Williams being intimately involved in a lot more of the aspects of it, since has convinced me that running with an established on-going group has some significant advantages to winging it on your own.

I am sure ISAF has some advantages to membership or they would not exist at all. The A class is 1 group we likely share the most in common with. Piet Saarberg would be 1 person I would feel could provide a pretty objective view on the advantages and disadvantages of membership due to his long term involvment with what the A class has done over the years.

It is alittle pre-mature right now, but as this is being discussed, maybe Hans could get him to put up a little post on a few of the pros and cons?

M
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 05:13 PM

I forgot to mention one thing. Before the black day in Estoril I contacted the president of the norwegian sailing association to ask if they were going to support a multihull event in the 2012 games. He replied positively, and our vote did go for a multihull event. I think everybody who cared about the events in 2012 should have done the same. Not blaming anybody, especially not you in the US who had a real struggle with US Sailing, but voicing opinions in a polite manner with the decision makers is usually a very smart move.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 05:17 PM

I was musing over the webpage with ISAF Councils members, and suddenly it struck home that africa and the middle east was hardly represented..
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 05:32 PM

Hey fellas.

I understand the perception that "ISAF doesn't want us," and I'd never imply that there aren't legitimate reasons for feeling that way. Currently, I'm much deeper into the whole process than I ever was before last year. At this point, I do not think that "they don't want us." In fact, I have found less of the attitude that "multihulls are different" within the ranks of volunteers at USSA and ISAF than I do at multihull fleet meetings. For what it may be worth in your debate, I find both USSA and ISAF have a good general regard of the multihull classes, though they do see us as a minority discipline. The Olympic decision was not about "how do we get rid of multihulls." It was a case of every nation voting self-interest over a representation of a variety of sailing disciplines. The situation is still very fluid and it is far from over.

With regard to ISAF recognized status, I would recommend you discuss the matter with your manufacturers - there is a fee per boat for builders of ISAF-recognized equipment, and some of the benefits to being a recognized class are to the factory (therefore less visible to owners). A healthy owner-controlled class should have an open dialogue with the builders about the future.

Another avenue that is just opening to the multihull community is the newly formed International Multihull Council. An introduction letter is likely to be published this week or next describing what led to the formation of the IMC, the objectives they've been working toward, and what they plan to do in the short- and long-term. The IMC will have Affiliate status with ISAF and will have personnel at ISAF meetings to represent multihull intrests. Class Associations and manufacturers will be getting letters soliciting support and membership. There have been some big things in the works for the last several months which are now ready to be rolled out.

Planning for the future is the best indicator that a Class is being well-managed. Way to go, F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 06:11 PM

I read the documentation of international / recognized class and I suggest that others do the same. Do we have any thoughts from our manufacturers?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 07:58 PM

JW: Good to hear from you. The news about the IMC sounds hopeful. Please keep us informed.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 11:02 PM

I noticed that Nacra are having a Worlds and Europeans with primarily boats that are not registered as an official ISAF class.
They call it a Nacra F18 Worlds but it will probably be 90% Infusions.
http://nacraeurope.com/news_details.php?id=88

I guess ISAF is more relaxed then we think?

Maybe someone from the F16 class could write up a comprehensive report outlining all the pros and cons of joining ISAF?
Posted By: macca

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 11:31 PM

Nacra F18 is a an ISAF registered class...
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 11:39 PM

Quote
Nacra F18 is a an ISAF registered class...

Of course u are right, but the Infusion isn't (different boats IMHO).
(And I think we both know what is left of the original Nacra F18 fleet <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/20/08 11:48 PM

Formula 18 is an ISAF International Class, designated as having multiple designers/builders. I suppose it would be the same for the Formula 16. And it is the same way for the A Class. I don't think there is any requirement that the individual designs within the formula class have to be ISAF classes in and of themselves.
Posted By: macca

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:14 AM

Nacra f18 is the registered class, even though the design is updated the class retains its ISAF status.

Much the same as the 14ft Skiff...


For example, F18 is a registered class, but Nacra F18 and Hobie Tiger are also individualy registerd classes. So they are elligble to hold their own Worlds.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:21 AM

Quote
I noticed that Nacra are having a Worlds and Europeans with primarily boats that are not registered as an official ISAF class.
They call it a Nacra F18 Worlds but it will probably be 90% Infusions.
http://nacraeurope.com/news_details.php?id=88

I guess ISAF is more relaxed then we think?

Maybe someone from the F16 class could write up a comprehensive report outlining all the pros and cons of joining ISAF?


I've spent a good bit of time on the ISAF website today.

The pros and cons seem to me, subjective. Either you belong or you don't. I haven't yet found any benefit to be derived beyond what U.S. Sailing offers. There is, however, much more information than I can cover in a single day.

In any case, we may not have sufficient numbers for consideration.

You may want to read part 26 pp. 101-106.

.pdf]http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2008ISAFRegulations_IN%20FULL-[4810].pdf
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:37 AM

Quote
For example, F18 is a registered class, but Nacra F18 and Hobie Tiger are also individualy registerd classes. So they are elligble to hold their own Worlds.

That's correct. Nacra and Hobie like to get International status for their own boats so they can hold world championships exclusively for those boats.

An F18 world championship, on the other hand, is open to ALL of the F18 designs.

In other words, if F16 became an International ISAF class, it would not be necessary for the Blade and the Stealth and the Viper, etc. to become International classes. But if the Blade wanted to be able to do one-design world championships, it would have to get International status for itself.
Posted By: macca

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:46 AM

Correct, only the F16 would need to be ISAF recognised to hold a worlds.

However for F16 to achieve such status there are a number of criteria that have to be met such as a minumum number of boats on each continent.

Also the bigest hurdle (change from current status) is the class rules would have to be ratified by ISAF and this is no easy task.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:49 AM

As a sailor, I would want my class to be ISAF sanctioned for two reasons.

Class rules are stable world wide and changes must go through ISAF through the approved "class rule change mechanism". This assures me that the crazy XXX's can't willy nilly change the boat weight and still call it " F16 class"

If they did .... ISAF is the organization that would tell US Sailing to tell the host yacht club... that hosting the F16 illegal class would cause them to loose their standing within the national sailing community. Sailors who participate in the event would also be barred from competing in other ISAF sanctioned events. ISAF hammers both clubs and sailors for rules violations. (See also drug testing rule, professional sailor rules etc etc)

Major championships (worlds, continentals) must be announced according to a specific calander, They must have a certain level of international participation (for a worlds)_.... the event must have a certain level of international judges and PRO with a certain level of skill. You could not for instance declare the upcoming gulfport regatta... the US Nationals just because it looked like it would be well attended. (those Californan's would have a legit beef that they were not given notice about the Nationals, etc etc.)

In short, ISAF standing gives your organization the stamp of approval that you meet a level of organization and excellence equivalent to the other International classes.

As a sailor... I would have a certain level of confidence in what to expect of an ISAF sanctioned class.

If memory serves... Wouter and the class founders had an extensive debate on the merits of getting ISAF recognition. They had gotten boats and races in the required regions etc etc. It cost a good bit of money to press on with the application and the founders did not pursue it.

Your opinion might vary as to the benefits of ISAF recognition.

In the end... it's the class.... (the organizational structure, rules, and demonstrated leadership) that must have credibilty for consumers to buy into your organization as the racing class of F16's. It is this organizaton that makes sure the builders comply with the class rules and that the equipment is within tolerance and the racing fair around the world. ISAF is one way of getting this credibility.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:53 AM

Pete,
It is good that you went to the trouble of finding and reading the ISAF regulations.

I am sure that Wouter and the other F16 Class founders and the current governing council and all the builders are aware of the requirements for ISAF International or Recognized status. And I am sure that at some point it will come up for discussion under this heading of Class Business.
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 01:25 AM

But the ISAF is the primary reason for lack of interest in the sport today. Just look at what they have done with the Olympics! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Indeed with friends like the ISAF controlling and manipulating the sport, who needs enemies? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 01:55 AM

Quote
But the ISAF is the primary reason for lack of interest in the sport today
.


Hmm..... that needs some explanation!


Quote
Just look at what they have done with the Olympics! Indeed with friends like the ISAF controlling and manipulating the sport, who needs enemies
?

This argument is too simplisitic.... Explain WHY we have a new discipline... "Women's Match Racing" We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy AND with two bits of unsporting behavior at the international level in the very recent past. The vote was about a collection of countries voting their self interest.... The Olympic debacle is a red herring with respect to Why you might want to be ISAF approved.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 02:46 AM

Quote

.... Explain WHY we have a new discipline... "Women's Match Racing" We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy ....


The ISAF wants "gender equity" throughout the organization. That may be a worhtwhile goal, but it smacks of political correctness and quotas. It isn't something I wish to get involved with.
Posted By: alutz

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 07:34 AM

Quote
Also the bigest hurdle (change from current status) is the class rules would have to be ratified by ISAF and this is no easy task.


Well we have just gone through this and ratified out class rules with a Member ISAF for our 18HT class. It is sure possible, it takes some time and now it is done.
The 18HT class is now a official 'Swiss Sailing B Class'.

IMO, ISAF ist the way to go.
It would be a great boost for the F16 class to get ISAF recognised status (at least) or international status. This would clearly show that the class has left its 'children's shoes' and is getting stable and serious.

Not that I think it is not stable and serious <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Greetings from Switzerland
Posted By: macca

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 08:16 AM

Hey Andi,

does that mean you had the rules checked by the ISAF Member, but the class is still not recognised by ISAF?

I think its great to have ISAF check the class rules and offer suggestions as to how to improve them. It really opens your eyes as to why rules are worderd the way they are sometimes.

I think the scrutiny that ISAF put class rules under if the class wants to become recognised as an international class is very intense.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 08:18 AM

Im not sure Im ready to revisit that ISAF discussion.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: alutz

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 08:30 AM

Quote
does that mean you had the rules checked by the ISAF Member, but the class is still not recognised by ISAF?


Yes, the 18HT class, has 'only' the National Swiss Sailing B class status. We haven't worked on the ISAF recognised status yet.
Most of our boats are distributed mainly in and around Switzerland and Italy. But at our last 'Europeans' at the lake of Thun, there where 20 boats/competitors from germany, italy, france and switzerland and the competition was on. The Sach brothers (GER - F18 Worldchampions 2006) where beaten in the final race from Daniele Saragoni and crew (ITA).
Posted By: phill

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 08:58 AM

Stewart,
I'm pretty much of the same mind.
We need to focus on setting up National Associations first.
Talking about ISAF before the national associations are set up is really putting the horse before the cart.

A bit like buying a set of tyres when you haven't bought a car.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 11:44 AM

Quote
. . . putting the horse before the cart. . .

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> How do you guys do it down there?
Posted By: phill

Re: Class business - 02/21/08 12:13 PM

Pete,
Just like anyone else.... although maybe it should have been "cart before the horse".
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 01:00 PM

I just got back from the Alter Cup where I held the prestigious position of water boy! From this august position I was able to speak with and listen to a number of top level sailors. This is what I heard.

The F16 portsmouth number is too soft. Handicap racing with the current number is unfair.

Racing 1up/2up in the same regatta is not fair. That is to say you need to sail the entire regatta with the same number of crew. This opinion was expressed by F18 and F16 sailors.

I agree. We should committ to establishing a rule for number of crew and petition USSailing for a lower handicap number.

Comments?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 01:15 PM

My personal opinion:
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 01:30 PM

Quote
My personal opinion:
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.


Agreed.

You declare on entry if you are sailing 1 or 2 up;

If you break your crew, you need to find another one, and gain permission via the jury. You cannot add a crew (or remove) a crew during the event.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 01:43 PM

Firstly the portsmouth is what it is.. (currently) and outside the F16 boundaries of influence...

re the one-up or two -up... Well I would leave it in the hands of the race committee and terms of gift of the trophies.. However if someone gets injured then we should allow the boat to sail as a solo or with a crew.. (perhaps not gain the title)..

I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts...
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 01:53 PM

We were successful in petitioning USS to do away with the uni rating, so we might be successful in petitioning a change in the overall rating.

"I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts... "

I was surprised to hear, as a criticism of the class, that we are a "recreational" class, not a racing class.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:03 PM

On the 1 up vs. 2 up thing, you run the risk of having a bunch of Uni sailors sitting on the beach when it's gusting over 20, they could not team up (like we did at Gulfport) on one day then sail Uni on the light air day that always follows the big blow...or they would have to stay teamed up on the light day, and you would have fewer boats racing, with perfectly good boats sitting in the parking lot...is that what you want?

As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.

Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:20 PM

Quote
On the 1 up vs. 2 up thing, you run the risk of having a bunch of Uni sailors sitting on the beach when it's gusting over 20, they could not team up (like we did at Gulfport) on one day then sail Uni on the light air day that always follows the big blow...or they would have to stay teamed up on the light day, and you would have fewer boats racing, with perfectly good boats sitting in the parking lot...is that what you want?

As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.

Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?


I'm not going to get into naming names. There was no complaining. The opinions were voiced civilly and based on first hand experience. Remember this was the Alter Cup, the guys doing the talking were well qualified to speak authoritatively. I wish you could have been there. Having you speak with them persoanlly, hear their reasoning, would have been very constructive, IMO.

Personally, I'd like to have the F18 sailors join this chat. We share the same sport and same resources. What one group does affects the other.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:34 PM

Funny, ive been saying this for the longest time. Its in the rules as well. You register UNI you sail UNI, it blows 20 or blows 5kts. None of this "today im racing two up, because its blowing too hard" "tomorrow ill race uni because its going to die down"

Now because ALTER CUP sailors said something its important to address? How about the F16 CLASS sailors! Again, I personally do not like when some of the F16 sailors choose configurations based on weather conditions. It goes against class rule 4.4.1 A single suit of sails is authorized for the duration of the event. single suitUNI rigged or Sloop

This going to get good.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:35 PM

Guys, re the Handicap in the US for the boat.

if you think it's to easy, go out and win everything and then they will have to change it.

Easy handicap is good!

Go pot hunting my friends!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:36 PM

Well... recreational racing is where I am at these days!!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:36 PM

agreed.. start solo.. get the solo title.. start cat get the cat title.. switchees(?) have fun and enjoy the rum after... Dont make a ban of switching, but lots depends on the deed of gift of the actual title, and switchees they may not get title that is all..
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:38 PM

Quote
Guys, re the Handicap in the US for the boat.

if you think it's to easy, go out and win everything and then they will have to change it.

Easy handicap is good!

Go pot hunting my friends!
Totally agree, I dont see the handicap changing any time soon. Not until the majority of the US F16 sailors get faster.

The portsmouth number issue is out of our hands.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:38 PM

forgot that rule.. so its covered.. start solo finish solo.. start cat finish cat.. switch and its for fun.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 02:41 PM

Stewart,

start uni, if you win you win "the title"
start double, if you win you win "the title"

I dont want separate scoring for one up/two up, if that was what you suggested?
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 03:03 PM

all depends on the deed of gift..
Nothing says we cant have a "champion boat".. Then other titles or trophies in an event..
best female skipper,
best mixed boat,
best solo,
best cat,
best youth..
Whatever the event can handle... Again common sense can be used by the RC...

end of the day.. I want people to have fun in a competative but friendly enviroment.. I personally want to encourage crews to join us.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LuckyDuck

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 03:06 PM

Personally I'm perfectly happy with changes in crew IF it is a one design regatta. I think it is a big plus for this class and is a big part of the fun factor. To do it in an open class regatta is a definate no no.

The Portsmouth thing is a can of worms, hard to win that one.

Ed
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 03:08 PM

Certainly you can do that, and in such a setting it can make sense, but one of the core ideas of the class is equal racing one up or two up. Dilluting that is a bad idea in my opinion that is why I wrote what I did.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 03:32 PM

agreed.. champion boat is the overall winner.. solo or cat at that regatta..

Then I would use "encouragement awards" .. Remembering that the champion boat will also win either the cat or solo award as well... Hell may also win the lady skipper "title".. But I dont see this as "diluting" the champion boat title..

But watch a kid win a junior "title" and they want to keep going <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..
then this is just me... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 03:59 PM

Quote
Personally I'm perfectly happy with changes in crew IF it is a one design regatta. I think it is a big plus for this class and is a big part of the fun factor. To do it in an open class regatta is a definate no no. Ed
Ed we arent a one design class though.

Changing crews goes against the F16 rules. Unless im reading them wrong. Maybe the GC can clarify this.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 04:59 PM

Lets not get into the whole portsmouth thing again. The number will correct itself with time. We aren't like some who like to win based on a BS number but I think agressively pushing a lower number is probably not worth the effort. Let the system deal with itself and the number will go down. (besides, if F16s do end up in the top of some portmouth fleets because of this number isn't that good promo for the class for those who don't know any better? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
I do find it interesting some of the top sailors say the boat is rated too slow... but I think we all knew that. Pick your battles, and this isn't one I would aggressively go after. But then again, I don't actually race much in reality, so you guys do what you want <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 06:12 PM


Quote

Changing crews goes against the F16 rules. Unless im reading them wrong. Maybe the GC can clarify this.



I'm afraid to inform you that you are wrong in this repect. We have covered this area a few weeks back already and answers can be found there.

Only the event rules can prevent crew switching; so use those if you want to limit F16 racing in this respect.

Wouter
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 06:36 PM

Let us clarify what we are talking about when you say "Changing Crews" because I'm not sure. Are you talking about changing one person for another person as crew in a two up configuration, or are you talking about sailing Uni vs. two up?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 08:03 PM

Quote
Let us clarify what we are talking about when you say "Changing Crews" because I'm not sure. Are you talking about changing one person for another person as crew in a two up configuration, or are you talking about sailing Uni vs. two up?


I believe the situation under discussion is:

1, Start event in 2 up mode and then change to single handed

2, Start single handed and then move to 2 up.


Both not on IMO
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 09:21 PM

Quote

Quote

Changing crews goes against the F16 rules. Unless im reading them wrong. Maybe the GC can clarify this.



I'm afraid to inform you that you are wrong in this repect. We have covered this area a few weeks back already and answers can be found there.

Only the event rules can prevent crew switching; so use those if you want to limit F16 racing in this respect.

Wouter
Yeah and here in the US usually RC go off what the class rules state.

What does single suit of sails mean then? I am sure im not alone on this one.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 10:21 PM

I see no reason to regulate this at the class level. As long as we maintain that both configurations can race on a level rating, we have no basis on which to argue that changing configuration mid-regatta creates anything other than fair competition. The suggestion some have made that they would be happier two-up in heavy weather at this point is purely anecdotal. If someone wants to collect some data that suggests a performance differential either way under some conditions then that's fine and we can evaluate it at that time. In the meantime, if someone wants to sail with a friend who is only available for one day of a two day regatta, this is a strength of the class, and we should not, as a default position, make these people feel they have to bend the rules to do it.

OTOH, if a particular event wants to regulate against this, I think that's also fine, and I think a rational case can be made for doing so - if you award a trophy to a boat that switched configurations, is the trophy being awarded to just the skipper even though s/he wasn't solo for the whole event, or to the skipper and the crew even though the crew didn't compete for the whole event? I think an event organizer is entitled to take the view that that's not a scenario they want to face. But for the weekend warrior who's personal goal is to just improve on his or her best fleet position for the season, sure it may all be in fun, but people like to feel they are following the rules - and indeed part of the satisfaction is in doing so. I see no reason to impose restrictions that limit the opportunity for people at the grass roots to enjoy the sport.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 10:24 PM

I take this to mean you can't use more than a single main, jib or spinnaker - e.g. different sails to suit different conditions. I think that rule deals with a different issue from the one we're talking about here.
Posted By: bobcat

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 11:32 PM

I imagine a single suit like taking my powder blue 3-piece suit to my brothers wedding. I can wear any combination of the three although I imagine that I would always be wearing the pants. That is my single suit. No options for changing to my pink suit just because that is what the bridesmaids are wearing.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Class business - 04/27/08 11:58 PM

Robi, on a different topic alltogether, how did you like racing on the Capricorn? To me it looks like a bigger Blade, how did it handle?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 12:46 AM

Greg Goodall might have suggested a different comparison <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 01:24 AM

Quote
Robi, on a different topic alltogether, how did you like racing on the Capricorn? To me it looks like a bigger Blade, how did it handle?
Thats another thread. LOL, Tim its a sweet boat that moves like a refined sports car. Powers up very quickly and the control lines are extremely tidied up on the boat. The engineering behind this boat is TOP NOTCH. A very scary thing is, my wife actually liked the boat a lot more than she liked the blade <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
The boat also moved through the chop without a glitch.

I did like the boat alot, enough to consider one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 01:30 AM

Did your wife get a ride on it too? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: ncik

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 01:37 AM

So to clarify ppls positions...

Prestige Events (Worlds, Nationals) should be a strict one crew configuration only system, however official crew changes like any other class should be allowed (ie. if your crew/skipper is broken beyond repair)

Club racing should be race whichever F16 you bring, 1-up, 2-up, doesn't matter, anything goes, changes are allowed up to the start gun of each race.

Minor Events (States, regional) depends on event committee. Changing between 1-up and 2-up is allowed but cannot win major title, only minor titles (ie. junior, veteran, amateur? etc.)

Selection Events should be conducted as the event being selected for.

OT - Maybe "Pro" and "Amateur" divisions (for want of better terms) can be applied for some regattas. The "Pros" can't change crew configuration except for exceptional circumstances, the "Amateurs" can change. I know of a couple of Aust. classes that have something similar even at National Championships level, the "B" fleet races without spinnakers or with modified crew numbers but starts with the "A" fleet. Just something to think about for some regattas.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 01:52 AM

Quote
Did your wife get a ride on it too? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
PMed <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 09:29 AM

Robi: I hope this is not a rude question but how much do you and your wife weight together?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 09:38 AM

Wow, ncik, that sounds awfully complicated. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 10:19 AM

Quote
Greg Goodall might have suggested a different comparison <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Very similar to the Viper, it looks fast sitting still! If I were in the F18 market, you'd have a tough time persuading me on another brand.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 10:51 AM

Personally I think the F16 designs could overshadow the F18 designs in the next few years..
We currently have "older" Stealth, Tiapan 4.9 "upgradies" and mozzies which arent to be sneezed at!! (old in these cases doesn't mean slow!!)
Then adding the Blade and Viper.. And around the "house corner" is the "DS16 mk1 & mk2" and another "new world country" has a group working on a design.. As well as a few individual designs sitting on shores.. Things are looking good..

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: ncik

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 12:35 PM

Which part?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 02:32 PM

Quote
So to clarify ppls positions...

Prestige Events (Worlds, Nationals) should be a strict one crew configuration only system, however official crew changes like any other class should be allowed (ie. if your crew/skipper is broken beyond repair)

Club racing should be race whichever F16 you bring, 1-up, 2-up, doesn't matter, anything goes, changes are allowed up to the start gun of each race.

Minor Events (States, regional) depends on event committee. Changing between 1-up and 2-up is allowed but cannot win major title, only minor titles (ie. junior, veteran, amateur? etc.)

Selection Events should be conducted as the event being selected for.

OT - Maybe "Pro" and "Amateur" divisions (for want of better terms) can be applied for some regattas. The "Pros" can't change crew configuration except for exceptional circumstances, the "Amateurs" can change. I know of a couple of Aust. classes that have something similar even at National Championships level, the "B" fleet races without spinnakers or with modified crew numbers but starts with the "A" fleet. Just something to think about for some regattas.


"Which part?" ALL of it.

AND, you should add a rule that says you cannot kick off your crew DURING a race or pick up a crew DURING a race. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AND, to add another minor complication, if the F16's are racing as a class in a multiple class event that charges a different entry fee for singlehanders vs. doublehanders, because they are providing food and/or T-shirts for each participant, and if an F16 registers as a singlehander and then later adds crew, do they they have to pay the additional entry fee? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 03:13 PM

Quote

AND, to add another minor complication, if the F16's are racing as a class in a multiple class event that charges a different entry fee for singlehanders vs. doublehanders, because they are providing food and/or T-shirts for each participant, and if an F16 registers as a singlehander and then later adds crew, do they they have to pay the additional entry fee? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Definitely.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 03:31 PM

Quote
I just got back from the Alter Cup where I held the prestigious position of water boy! From this august position I was able to speak with and listen to a number of top level sailors. This is what I heard.

The F16 portsmouth number is too soft. Handicap racing with the current number is unfair.

Racing 1up/2up in the same regatta is not fair. That is to say you need to sail the entire regatta with the same number of crew. This opinion was expressed by F18 and F16 sailors.

I agree. We should committ to establishing a rule for number of crew and petition USSailing for a lower handicap number.

Comments?


Pete,

Having just come back from competing in this event and being a F16 owner, I kind of find offense in this post.

Many crews who would be perfect for the F16 have have stayed with the F18 becuase of the "racing". In Europe this appears to be the class if you race. This was pushed in the US and many very serious teams do compete F18. I consider my racing seriously, but have no allusions that I could race with Gina on an F18 and be competitve with Tomko/Billings, Pitt/Shaffer, etc. 90% of the boats we have sold have been to beginner/intermediate racers. They did not buy the boat to be top of the racing circuit. Most's enthusiasm and improvement (including yourself) has been remarkable. Since there is not any money in this for most of us anyway, for myself and I would beleive most others, the social aspect and the pure fun of sailing is just as important as the racing.

Most of the world uses a different handicap number than the US and they typically place the F18 and F16 much closer in performance. The US is results based, and will eventually change with more participation. For now why in the world would you want change a favorable number if you do race handicap? This is a huge selling point for racing an F16 in the US.

The Cap was a very nice boat to sail. It was a bitch moving on land and lacked the responsivness of the F16 on the water. Even though Seth and I had never sailed together and took a DNS and a DNF I felt our boat speed was very competitive with the group all week. Comparing this to how we race on our 16 I still feel the 2 different designs are relatively comaparable in overall speed around the race course. In a distance (not upwind/downwind) type event, the extra volume length and weight would be preferable over the shorter 16, but most of these guys are running 20s in the US anyway for the same reason.

For potential, there is a lot more opporunity for female crews, youth, mixed, and smaller teams on the F16. The top F18 racing group will not ever look at the F16 anyway. A few may move over if there becomes a large racing cicuit, but aiming at that is waist of time and not what the F16 is about anyway. The F18 may still present themselves as "serious racers", but in our area, there is no one left. After JC goes to Europe, we have 2, Ding and Olli. I am going to the race for the party and to see my friends and enjoy my time on the water. I've raced years on the H16, arguably the most competitive 1 design cat class in the world, I own a wave also pushed for the race scene. I have also owned and raced at least 10 other cat classes. I realy enjoy my F16 more than any other boat I have owned or raced. It will not be the same for everyone, and I would never try to claim so.

Now back to feeding the Trolls - Waterboy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mary

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 04:03 PM

Quote
For now why in the world would you want change a favorable number if you do race handicap? This is a huge selling point for racing an F16 in the US.

I agree!! Doesn't make sense for the F16 sailors to want a lower number.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 04:22 PM

I’m not sure why you would find Pete’s post offensive.

If you guys want to switch crews, configuration, sails, hardware, or modify any rule you want within your own class then go nuts, but if you are racing in the open fleet you know as well as I do that it is extremely unfair and will drive people away from racing. The argument that you’ll have perfectly sailable boats sitting on the beach because you can’t switch configurations is bogus and self serving.

Matt anybody that goes to the Alter Cup is taking it “very seriously”. If you’re not taking it seriously why would you be there?

The 07 and 08 AC results show that the F16 number needs to be addressed. I know this hurts one of the selling points of the boat and takes money out of the builder’s pocket, but it’s the right thing to do for the sport.

Dave

Mark S. - This is why DPN sucks!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 04:30 PM

Ding, how can you claim that "Based on the 07 and 08 Alter Cup results, the F16 number needs to be addressed"? Were there also F16's racing against F18's at either venue? Were the race courses and wind exactly the same at both venues? By what measurement are you using to compare the two? Feel? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> You would have to run say 5 Blades against 5 Caps. swap boats after each race, do that about 10 times in all kinds of wind, and then look at the results to have any idea how the two compare, oh, and keep times on each race as well. Until that day comes, we will keep our rating.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 04:50 PM

Guys,

I am certain there are set procedures to change a PY number. If somebody feel the current number is not correct, no amount of discussion here will change the PY number. This is not a F16 class business matter as I see it, but a Portsmouth issue. If somebody want it to change, submit the necessary regatta results and let the Portsmouth committee do their work.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 04:54 PM

My opinions only:
I think that if you are sailing a F16 only event (or a F16 class within an Open regatta), then there is more flexibility of teaming up (with on person being marked DNC) in bad weather. In that case it is up to the organizing body of that regatta (and hopefully the other competitors). A good example is the Gulfport Invitational in 2007 and 2008.

Any time sailing in an Open fleet, I think you should sail as you registered for the entire regatta. It is just plain wrong to ditch a crew when the wind is light.

Rumors:
The D-PN (and wind rated factors) may change when ALL the results from 2007 (and 2006 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) are included; evidently some regatta organizers have not sent in their results, yet. These results could have a profound influence on the rating. The bottom line is that there may be a mid-year adjustment to the F16 rating - if the results can be obtained by the Portsmouth Committee. USSA needed to release the 2008 numbers and couldn't wait any longer on the stragglers (my assumption).

Carry on.......
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 05:13 PM

Quote

The 07 and 08 AC results show that the F16 number needs to be addressed. I know this hurts one of the selling points of the boat and takes money out of the builder’s pocket, but it’s the right thing to do for the sport.


Matt may disagree with me, but I don't particularly see a favorable number as a selling point. I think a number that indicates performance close to F18 with 70 fewer kgs would be a bigger selling point. So a lower number would be a good thing. But I also agree that the normal Portsmouth process should be allowed to take its course.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 05:19 PM

Quote
I’m not sure why you would find Pete’s post offensive.

If you guys want to switch crews, configuration, sails, hardware, or modify any rule you want within your own class then go nuts, but if you are racing in the open fleet you know as well as I do that it is extremely unfair and will drive people away from racing. The argument that you’ll have perfectly sailable boats sitting on the beach because you can’t switch configurations is bogus and self serving.

Matt anybody that goes to the Alter Cup is taking it “very seriously”. If you’re not taking it seriously why would you be there?

The 07 and 08 AC results show that the F16 number needs to be addressed. I know this hurts one of the selling points of the boat and takes money out of the builder’s pocket, but it’s the right thing to do for the sport.

Dave

Mark S. - This is why DPN sucks!


??? Ding,

DPN in any form will always be a source of argument.

Nobody has said anything about changing configurations etc. The rules for racing are set and they are basicaly the same as in any other class.

I "race" seriously and try may hardest everytime I am on the water. I am not going to be able to race with Gina and be competitive in the F18 class. I am not going to pick up another crew who would be able to handle the boat, just to race in the F18 class. (she would kick my butt). I can race class when there are enough boats, and I can race DPN and be relatively competitive with a number of other similarly rigged boats. If I am on the water I am trying to win boat for boat with whoever is near me be it an F18 or a H16. It makes no difference to me the handicap. There is only 1 race a year where it matters anyway (The qualifier)

Like Timbo said, this event shows nothing about the relative merrit on the current numbers. The Alter cup is about the sailors and the best get on the boat and figure it out the fastest. People who have one of the boats being sailed do not ususally do that well. This is because the boats are not set up the same as their own. I can sail my own boat much faster becuase it is set up for me and I have the time on it to know the feel to keep it moving. I get on another and my head is in the boat as I am not sailing by feel and my strategy goes by the way side. The best teams get "the feel" right away. We were beating the Puerto Ricans early in the evnet and they were beating everyone late. JC got on the 16 last year and figured out the boat spead first and won the event. It is about the sailors not the boat - Remember.

If you want to talk about money in builders pockets, come talk to me, it is not doing this. My involvement here is for the cat sailing. Anyway isn't it about time you flopped classes again <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: pdwarren

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 06:05 PM

Quote

I believe the situation under discussion is:

1, Start event in 2 up mode and then change to single handed

2, Start single handed and then move to 2 up.

Both not on IMO


Well, I've done this for the last two F16 Nations Cups, but I've always declared my configuration for each day months in advance, well before forecasts could hope to give a clue as to "favourable" configurations.

I wouldn't expect non-F16 events to allow this, but otherwise I think it should be at the discretion of the event organisers.

Paul
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 08:01 PM

Quote
Quote

I believe the situation under discussion is:

1, Start event in 2 up mode and then change to single handed

2, Start single handed and then move to 2 up.

Both not on IMO


Well, I've done this for the last two F16 Nations Cups, but I've always declared my configuration for each day months in advance, well before forecasts could hope to give a clue as to "favourable" configurations.

I wouldn't expect non-F16 events to allow this, but otherwise I think it should be at the discretion of the event organisers.

Paul


Exactly; IMO what you did was right and was allowed; you declared in advance that this was happening and it was allowed.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 09:16 PM

Quote
. . . I kind of find offense in this post.



You and Gina were specifically excluded from the "non-competitive" category. I took it to mean myself and perhaps a few others. In my case the shoe fits so no complaining here, although I do plan to put a little more effort into it.

Context is everything. Had you been in the conversation, I don't believe you would have taken offense.

I like the weight and versatility of the F16. The F18 was never a consideration for me.

There were a number of people at Alter Cup who's opinions I respect. Not all of them agree. The opinion I've adopted as my own is that the F16 is very nearly as fast as the F18, upwind; and about 5% slower downwind, given equal crew weight and ability. IMO, the numbers should reflect this.

Those who buy the F16 because of a favorable number will abandon the class when a similar opportunity avails. As a class, we should be trying to attract those who favor the F16 for its strengths; performance, versatility and weight.
Posted By: ncik

Re: Class business - 04/28/08 11:31 PM

I don't agree that any of the first or second parts are complicated. It is a decision that has to be made for each regatta, but it doesn't have to be complicated.

You can't kick your crew off during a race under the current ISAF rules. There's no need to make a new rule. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

If the crew doesn't want the food or shirt then there is no need for them pay the extra. If they want it, they pay for it, shirts and food are usually always available during regattas. Also, I think changing/adding/removing crews during regattas is rude, to the crew and other competitors, without justifiable reasons.
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