My F16 Blade build

I am unable to find my old "build" thread, if there ever was one..

Lots of water have passed into the sea and lots of stuff have happened in my life but the build is still ongoing.

We build 1-3 hours a week so this is taking forever to finish if you look at the calendar. If counting hours it is not that bad but it would be nice to go sailing soon.

Anyway, what I was going to do was to give you some input on installation of the main deck.

First you need a hull with a load bearing structure of course silly. Then a 4mm gaboon ply piece to fit as the deck.
Notice deck beams with thick paper glued on to hold the thickened epoxy for fillets as the deck is installed.
The centerboard case is clearly visible, as is the carbon chainplate.

http://woodastic.blogspot.no/2012/12/main-deck.html

The underside of the deck is first covered in unthickened epoxy and put aside. Then an hour is spent preparing all surfaces and fillets on the hull. Last thing I do before installing the deck is to add another rather thick layer of inthickened epoxy. This is the waterproofing for the underside of the deck..
Then it is only a matter of positioning the deck, slap it on, and apply pressure to force it down on to the hull. If no thickened glue is pressed out, you now have a real issue to handle

http://woodastic.blogspot.no/2012/12/main-deck-in-place.html

You can NOT have too many straps..

All in all a 3 hour job for a single person.

Looks good. You are a patient man!

I am only patient with kids and animals. My family and friends would not have "patient" on the list if they were to describe me I think

looks very nice. Could you estimate the materials cost (or the amount of material you've used so far)?

Where did you get the plans / scantling drawings?

Sorry, no cost estimate. It is cheap to build the hulls though. Spruce planks ripped into ribs. Some light glass and more epoxy than you think. We did 12 half hull panels so the cost have to be split on 3 boats.
Real cost is in fittings, foils, rig and sails.

Designer is a personal friend and supplied scantlings. This is a one off and there will be no more scantlings from him, at least that was what I heard back then. Designer is currently building a Farrier tri so he is busy. If I am going to build other boats it will not be in strip plank. Go for plywood if you want a fast build.
I do happen to have 4 extra hull panels in storage though, after a partner pulling out of the build..

I love the build, looks like a fun project.

What are the advantages of a strip build?

It is easier to source good spruce, epoxy and glass than it is to source good okume marine ply.
It is also potentially cheaper if you have good sources.
It might be lighter, if done right.
It might be stiffer if done right.

The downside is that it might be more expensive, heavier and not as stiff is done wrong. For sure it will take you much longer to build in strip than in ply.

We choose strip as we were unable to find good gaboon marine ply without importing it at a horrendous price.

Everytime I see a boat being built outta wood, all I can think is you are nuts, but I play with wood all day, and at the end of that day, I don't care to do anymore.

Looks very nice Rolf. I've been kicking around building a boat plug in a semi similar fashion.

Wood is cheap and a process I know. Most other parts I already had so wood was an easy choice based on cost.
Today I might do something different.

My main driver is cost as I dont have much money to use on the sport. Scrounging and DIY is the theme.. Purchasing a boat is just too expensive for me.

Rolf you do very nice work! Its great that you are building a boat, most of us just talk and never do. Part of that for me is the money doesn't make sense. I can scrounge (have more boat parts than I care to admit) but the major costs of mast, rigging, beams and sails aren't going anywhere and still run $10K if bought new I guess if you built molds for the hulls, molds for the mast you could build an exotic boat for cheaper than buying, excluding labor. Would be a fun group project.

Here's my next build:

Only needs to add a fishing rod and a shotgun before it is perfect!

Depends. I have scrounged two set of beams, two masts and lots of fittings and stuff over the years. Sails we will purchase pre-cut and assemble ourself, or cut the panels ourself as well.
If the money is there, it absolutely is best to purchase. If the interest and lack of money is bad enough, building and accepting the compromises and investment in time is the only way to get on the water in the boat you would like.

poifek

Jay, why do I think the words, "Here, hold my Beer." were involved with the design of this craft?

All you need now is an F18HT mast and a spin pole!

PS, didn't know you were an Alabama fan, but it's all starting to make sense now...

;^)

Pete, imagine how cheap the one-design build would be?

We could have a huge fleet in no time. Don't need a trailer, don't even need an RC/PRO. Just plenty of Jack Daniels

Heck, you could even demolition derby those things.

Perhaps only in canals or other areas with stagnant water and there would be a class limit on the number of teeth the operator possesses.

jeez, a PDQ catman style.

Quick update:

Both main decks now installed. Tomorrow I plan to put on the rear decks of both hulls. Then trim and glass over the weekend. The hulls will then be structurally complete and we can move on to the fittings we will build.

In that regard it looks like my CNC mill will be ready just in time. I might not have mentioned here that part of the project includes building a CNC mill to produce fittings and some other stuff which is too expensive to purchase (and besides quite fun to build, including building the tools to build the parts.. No wonder this boatbuilding takes time ).

Today I did the first cut controlled by computer on the X and Z axis (pic below). Z axis will be the next step before cleanup, finalizing and G(eek)-code learning. Test was a very simple circle G-code program, but the thing seems to work pretty well.

Rolf, you are a patient man. I couldn't complete your project in two life times.

Now, let's talk about modifying a Blade to a small tri, using the Blade hull as the main hull.

Are you planning to sail that tri on one hull?

I think you will find that one Blade hull dont have enough bouyancy to give you the performance a cat would do.

There is in my opinion a crossover point on cats vs tris where the extra hardware of the tri slows down the boat until a certain size is reached. Below this size the cat is the better performer. Especially a potent cat like a Blade.

If you want to experiment, why not work on a tilting rig instead.

I often sail the cat on one hull. I was really thinking of the amas as training wheels, like on a bicycle.

So the target would be to sail the tri on the center hull only?

Rolf,any information you can share about your CNC build. I would like the information for the FIRST Robotics team I am on. It would be nice to build a CNC to teach the youth programming and manufacturing skills.

I can be reached at:dale.vanlopik"at"att"dot"net

Thanks

How about we trade boats are you build a tri from an i20?

Pass.

I would go with a 20' main hull, but that's just me. [/hijack]

Rolf, you sir are wild man. A 4 or 5 axis cnc its on three short list if I ever win the lottery.

Hi Dale,

what would you like to know?

My CNC is based on a chineese mini-mill. I sourced stepper motors and the 4 axis controller (tb6560) through e-bay. Power supply for controller and steppers I picked up used at work and same for an old computer to run the controller.
The only thing I had to manufacture from scratch was the stepper motor mounts. For that a lathe simplifies the build a lot.

If you are looking for details, you can find all kind of the sort on cnczone.com.


Karl, if you want it, build it I dont spend time in front of the tv which gives me time for projekts. How large a machine do you need for your projects, and why 4-5 axis?
Sometime in my future there might be a large size router for wood projects but with replaceable heads for sailplotting and sailcutting. Lasers are also cool..

There is so much i want to build and do and so little time..

Thanks Rolf. I will look into it.

Rolf - did you say you got the plans for your F16 build with the high aspect daggarboards?

I always thought the Blade F16 would do well with high-aspect daggars, but don't know how difficult it would be to either:

-buy plans with the upgraded daggarboard design
-modify an existing Blade

How much did your plans cost?

I don't watch a lot of tv either, especially in the warm months. For work, I'll never get a cnc. Too slow, too many secondary/support equipment needed, and they really aren't the answer for what I do for work. If I were making a thousand, or even a hundred of one part it would make sense, but its just not what I do.

Now, for making things out of aluminum for boat/motorcycle/whatever, I'd want to be able to draw it up, throw a blank in the machine and let it buck.

a 4 or 5 axis can make all of the compound crazy curves that are extremely difficult to do any other way. I really want to make some billet rudder stocks as an example. Same with making molds, want a new daggerboard shape? Throw a blank of aluminum in the mill and watch the chips fly.

Just a toy to me, and one that I won't be buying unless I were to win the lotto, (which I rarely play). Right now it's cheaper to just hire out the job to those with the tooling, and let me do my job to pay for it.

I dont think I said anything about the AR on daggers. But I intend to go relatively high AR.
The plans I have are the plywood plans in addition to some updated cross sections for hulls. I dont think plans are available anymore and certainly not the updated cross sections which was made as a personal favour 5 years ago.

If more people built boats, more plans and options for foils would be available. I dont know what people are busy doing, but homebuilding is declining. I have tried starting discussions on foils for F16s and developments there, and the interest is relatively low, with a few very good exceptions.

Ah, I am now learning just that part. Draw it and then have the machine do it.. Turnes out there is a learning curve there



I am sure you know this, but for those who dont. Making a mould (male or female) for daggerboards require only 3 axis.





Ahh, but learning new stuff is so much fun and interesting.

Rolf, if you want to see some very awesome machining/fab stuff at work give this a read. CLICKY A buddy sent it to me about three years ago, and I end up reading through it about once a year.



Its about a AC Cobra replica that Larry Elison had built. Some of the coolest sh!t I have ever seen.





Yes, but.....

....but the air filter has a Moroso cap.

Trouble is the cnc cutter I want is a little over 16ft long

Often thought that the latest 3D printers which are dropping in price dramatically may be far better off at making prototype boards and the likes as they could then be used for making the moulds with a perfect finish already inplace unlike the cnc routers which need hours and hours of final fairing and polishing before a board could be made.

Hey by the way happy new year all and may the sailing gods be kind to us all this year.

Hi Wayne,

I dont know how good the resolution on 3D printers is yet. Probably pretty good, but as good as the 1/100mm you can achieve on a CNC mill?
Will the media used in 3D printing warp depending on temperature differences when building or storing largish items like a foil?

16foot CNC router is doable. But the Z axis would be hard to make to allow the milling of whole hulls I think Perhaps if two half hull plugs were made.. hmmm..

Matt used to have some pics on the Vectorworks website from the milling of the Blade plugs. Large machine and a 2 step process with foam. I dont know if they faired or used putty on the plug but I believe the result is good enough from milling to just polish the part and then start moulding.

I think there's a perception that home-build is no cheaper and much more time consuming than buying off the shelf. And that the boats would be heavy and not competitive

Same reason few people make beer at home, perhaps?

But you indicated in your build project perhaps the most important reason - you have more time than money. Thanks to your detailed site, it does make the concept of a home build a bit more feasible to those who have basic skills with wood and epoxy.

Tortured ply looks a bit less cumbersome than mold-building/sandwich core construction, but I've only built an Opti (which probably weighed 2x what it should have, and lasted about 1 season before it's Viking funeral). But I'd have to find plans...

I think with high aspect boards, that Blade F16 design would be outstanding as a home-build project. But it would likely cost the same as a new Falcon/Viper once you add the rest of the platform (sails, mast, rigging, beams, foils, etc)unless you were good at finding people who are parting-out their older F16 models.

Amongst my friends homebrewing of beer is on the rise! To bad that I can not stand the stuff anymore

Time is a limitation as well as money. Borrowing money from the bank to purchase a boat was never an option for me.

Cost will be spread over a longer time, and for me the finished cost will be relatively minor compared to purchasing and importing a used boat (we have 25% VAT on everything here). I have sources for cheap materials. Masts and beams scrounged. Cleats etc. collected over many years. Will purchase sail panels pre-cut and assemble at home. In total the cost will be minor compared to purchasing.


And I will have a unique experience to take with me in life, and lots of fun during the build. As tonight when I did the Z axis and ran the first program. Some cleanup now and the CNC mill is ready. Happy days!

I have even got a new job contract signed which will reduce my commuting time and free up at least 10 hours a week of overtime! Even more happy days!

I'd probably only build the hulls. the rest of the stuff sounds too complicated for my pea-brain.

I guess I could scrounge up the various parts over time...

You are correct, the build would definitely be an experience and worth the effort ..

Rolf,

Have you managed to find time to worry about the foils? I'm considering building a set for my F18, as a potential money savor and to say I've done it. One big question is what airfoil is being used on the current sections, do your plans specify that?

Thanks,
Sam

Hi Sam,

we are getting closer to diving into foils, but not quite there yet!
I dont remember if sections was included in the plywood plans. What I know have been used as a safe section earlier is NACA0007 for daggers and NACA0012 for rudders. But there is a whole world of sections available and tuning that can be done. A very nice catsailor here sent me profile data for a modified NACA0013 to be used as both daggers and rudders. Then there are DAG sections which are used on quite a few catamaran foils..

Planform is also very important.



Not too much info is available but most in the know-how will answer direct questions on a good day.
We will start with proven sections and planforms and eventually make insets if we build experimental sections later on.

Place your bets and hold your breath

Once you get the section sorted out, just make them 2 meters long...or longer.

;^)

2 meters!! Bethewaite was on to something but pulled out before it became ridicilous!

Welcome to modern cats, there is a table of standard F18 board sizes here (last page)

Thanks for the link. 1965x23x192mm is.. Well, a challenge.

Considering the lower boat and perhaps also crew weight of an F16 a smaller foil is probably the optimum. But the trend is clear. Longer and slimmer foils.. Where is the practical limit and is it only a trend that will reverse in time.. I dont know, but I do think we will continue to see long and slim foils

Picked this up on SA: " On an older A-Class with smaller transoms, the conversion from straight to curved boards may have a better chance for improvement if rudder winglets are also included in the upgrade.

There's no doubt that curved boards are here to stay. "

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=144251#entry4037605

I suppose, that if that is true, we should address the issue in the rules.

I would suspect currently, the limit would have to do with the stiffness of the foil using current materials/technology.

Until, that is, I develop "transparent aluminum"

Speaking as a player in the F18 fleet I don't see the daggerboard length trend ever reversing. Granted there is a pretty small window where they pay but that's where the game is being played now. I'm still running the short boards mainly because I like saying "It's not the length of your daggerboard it's how you use it"

enzyte baby...enzyte