500th thread and 3025 posting; A milestone !

500th thread and 3025 posting A milestone !

Since the start of this forum in juli 2001 we gethered 500 threads of topics and a grant total of 3025 postings.

Everybody knows my love for numbers so here goes !

173 weeks of F16 forum results in an average of 2.89 new threads PER WEEK and 17.49 posts on average PER WEEK

or 1211 days of F16 forum activity resulting in an average of 2.50 posting per day !

That is quite an achievement in my my opinion. Especially considering that we really have been keeping up a rather constant level of this posting for almost 3 and a halve years now. It is not that we had times of many postings and then times of not a single one. In my experience we all have been able to keep it going and going; with only quiet times only having limited inpact. OF course it helps that we have sailors and activities in both the southern and northern hemisphere to keep new news coming in all the time.

Another interesting average is the average numbers of posts per thread. (3025-500)/500)= 5.05 replies for each initiating post (thread starter). This indicates that a lively discussion is taking place in nearly every thread. THis is stuff that makes sailors come back to this forum. Simply because things happen and you get replies to your messages.

As we all know we are by many measures a small community. Our numbers don't (yet?) approach those of F18. F20 or A-cat class numbers however some 100 boats are directly linked to the F16 class. Distribution is about : US 26, EU 40, Asia 23, Australia 10 and I didn't include the South African Mossies (There are OD now; some 20 of them) or the Aus and German Taipan (as they don't want us to include them even though several of them are sailing with a spinnaker) nor did I included the Swell Spitfires as again they are a seperate OD class. Of course this doesn't mean we respect these sailors any less and we will keep welcoming to our class format.

Some good 35 boats are Stealths, some 10 are one-offs and prototypes, and 55 are Taipan 4.9's with spinnakers. Both the Blade F16 and Taipan F16 designs are yet to young to be counted as a seperate class and these are included in the one-offs. However this may soon be over. I think both designs will pass the 5 confirmed boats threshold this winter. But this breakdown of the community shows that we have succesful in making our formula class a REAL formula class. Especially since with the introduction of the Taipan F16 we, as the F16 class, are about to reach the threshold of 3 commercially and generally available fully optimized F16 designs. Personally I think this a minimum for any selfrespecting formula class. I also makes the class alot more stabil and seriously cements its growth.

Growing a class is never easy and honestly the work never really stops but I think that we can say that we have proven that our initial idea has a lot of life and we have proven to be able to survive the most difficult part of getting started and survive the first 3 years. And of course in this respect a catamaran class is no different from a starting a company. The first 3 years is "make or break" territory. People on the fence waited it out to see where we would end up. To see wether our class rules proof to be stabil and wether our claims of F16 / F18 equality are really true. I notice over here in my own area that the scepsis has been replaced by a believe in what we say and more importantly what we do. A very good development. A few A-catters also see us for what we are, a darn good compromise between several conflicting wishes. The F18's know about us and respect the setup. There is no crew that makes fun of "those little boats" knowing full well that they'll be eating those words if they are not carefull. And we ourselfs have learned to get our heads out of the boats and mix it with the very skilled crews of both classes. Beating Hobie 16's on the line while sailing a F16 is easy enough. Doing the same with F18's and A-cats is a whole lot more challenging. This is the scene where we belong and only positive things can come of it.

I'm personally looking forward for this winter time. I have good hope that some more good news is coming our way, small steps but very much steps ahead. This way grow and grow and grow continiously. With this it is only a matter of time before we start rivalling the named classes in numbers as well.

Lets keep it up !

Regards,

Wouter

And as always Wouter you got good words to say!! Nothing but motivation!!!!!!

Like I have said plenty of times before, cant wait to get my F16!!!

Hi Wouter,
Fantastic milestone and you certainly deserve some praise, I have never felt anything but welcome to the F16 fold with the Mossie and even before I had a computer. This forum will grow this class, people like me out of the cities in whatever country we live in starve for sailing comunication and this forum provides it.

I visit many other sites searching for information and ideas but most of them just aren't up to date, don't get regular posts replies etc. Lets all keep up the good work and keep the enthusiasm and ideas coming the boats will follow.

Must mention whilst cruising the international A class site found some negative comments about F16. Of course I had to reply to stand up for F16. But this is the kind of thing we can hopefully avoid on this forum, of course we think F16 is best. But the main thing is people get out and enjoy sailing doesn't matter what on and we can all share the ideas.

Regards Gary.

Hello Gary,

Thank you.

Be sure to send that movie clip of your Altered to Eric Poulsen so he can include it on the F16 promo video !


>>Must mention whilst cruising the international A class site found some negative comments about F16. Of course I had to reply to stand up for F16.

Actually an A-cat sailor had mailed me refering to these posts, asking if I would care to reply. I let it be as it is their A-cat forum and it is all harmless enough. There is no need to rub some F16 salt in their wounds (Spinnakers).

I can understand they are a little bit sour. But I fully agree with Dirk when he writes that they need to get with the game or decide to stay out of it and accept that the A's are not top of the line anymore. I think Dirk worded it just right when he commented that A-cat have played the development card to their own advantage for years and that now some other classes do the same that they must accept that a similar development (spinnakers) has turned the tables on them.

Apart from that I hope to experience more cooperation between the two classes like the shared US F16 / A-cat event. We have much to gain from eachother.

And therefor I fully agree with the next comment.

>>But the main thing is people get out and enjoy sailing doesn't matter what on and we can all share the ideas.

Now I wouldn't be Wouter if I wouldn't dispense at least some venom in the tail of this post.

If anyone ever draws some heat from an A-cat sailor about sailing an ugly boat, a fake A-cat or something than simply remind him that it is still the one that is first over the finish line that wins the race and not the one who first reaches the A-mark. This same criterium settles the dispute of who sails the fastest (singlehanded) catamaran. Shuts them up permanently.

And I think we F16 sailors know what I'm talking about here. Between you and me ; the expression "sitting ducks" has gotten a new meaning to me since sailing downwind legs with a spinnaker.

But seriously, I understand their sagrin at spis a little bit. And I like the A-cat design. I'm happy to sail my F16 and hand the upwind leg to the A-cats. They are welcome to enjoy their place in the sun.

One extra comment. I also feel that they are confusing having a spi with having to sail against the highly developped and skilled F18 designs/crews. The spinnaker is only part of the picture. In the past they A-cats had easy prey in the rigid SMOD classes that discouraged development and improvements. Now of course the F18 class is adressing every single issue with the F18 design with the power of tens of professional and olympic crews as well as 1000's of determined amateurs. This can only result in very fast and well balanced boats and crews. Such a combination is always hard to compete against. As Dirk wrote, the ratings for A-cat were helped when the gap to the F18's was reduced from 6 points to 2 points and still the A's get their behinds handed to them by the top F18's. This only suggests that rating inequality is only part of the equation if it is at all now after the rating modification. These F18's and F18 crews sail a darn good race nowadays. In all honesty the A-cat scene is not THAT deep in skill. If the A-cat class features 10 hero's worlwide than the F18 class can now boost itself to have 50 of them. And these 50 also hone their skills against the others every two weeks. This is a level of intensity that is beyond the A-cat class. Let remember that all the other non-F18 classes have serious problems competing against the top F18's on handicap and this includes Tornado sailors. The level of skills and amount of practice hours is so disproportionally.

In our own case the F16 is up to the task from a technically point of view (some signs suggest we even have a small edge in several conditions) but it will take a whole lot of practice and honing skills with your buddy to be sailing among the top F18 crews. There is simply no way to buy your win into the lead group of the F18 fleet. Also not when buying a F18 itself.

Wouter

Here the links for people wanting to join in the fun.

All links are to various threads on the A-cat forum. And lets not crowd them or be impolite !

General http://p078.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2

A-cats, spi, F16 : http://p078.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=78.topic

F16's http://p078.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=76.topic

A-cats and spi's: http://p078.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=72.topic

A-cats and spi's : http://p078.ezboard.com/faclasscatamaranforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=53.topic

Have fun lurking around !

Wouter

Do you have any links to elapsed times for A-Classes and F16s (single-handed) in the same handicap race?

Has anybody any experience of sailing F16 single handed and sailing A-Classes - and if so how do you rate them comparaitively WRT thrill factor?

Here's a link with elapse times with 2 F16 uni rigs and 1 A-cat (I realize that's not many!):

http://www.catamaranracing.org/results/commodores_04.htm

Here's another result (one F16 uni, one A-cat):

http://www.catamaranracing.org/results/whitecaps_04.htm

Of course there's always a story behind every race result, like me and the other F16 capsizing once or twice, competing against a former olympian (Finn), a broken tiller extension, etc. But overall we've had a great duel between the a-cat and us, him taking us upwind and us passing downwind.

At another race this past summer we started 5 min behind the A-cat start. I noticed a wide disparity between the fastest and slowest a-cats. For what it's worth, we (F16 unis) caught and past 1/3-1/2 the a-cats on the downwind leg. On the other hand, the fastest a-cats were on the beach showered off by the time we finished (ie Pete Melvin).

Summary: A-cats and F16 unis are remarkably close around a course. A skilled a-cat sailor would certainly beat me around a W-L course; a sailor with equal skill as me on an a-cat would have a difficult time beating me on an F16 uni; a sailor with excellent skills on an F16 would likely give any a-cat a good run.

...F16 sloop is another story--definitely faster in my experience than the uni rig.

Thanks Eric,

I've sold my F18 and am moving to a single hander; I'm 99.9% sure it's going to be an A class (simplicity/elegance/performance) but I get a lot of friendly banter about F16, so was just wondering about relative performance based on actual results...

But still sailing off the same (and only) F16 rating...?

No comparisons from my side of the pont as spi boats and non-spi boats are nearly always seperated over two different race fields. Meaning they don't even sail the same courses. The races were we do all sail together are often distance races or something and here the comparisons can be quite skewed.

With regard to the sloop an uni comparison. There are a few things to consider here. But first let me give you the quick run down of how the Sloop-uni specs in F16 came to be.

-1- We knew that the Taipan 4.9 sloop was faster around the course then the Taipan uni. The comments were that on relatively short courses or when involving relative many manouvres (tacks etc) the uni could keep up with the sloop due to its better ability to make quick manouvres. It also could point higher and as long as there were no double trapeze conditions the Uni sailors could get maximum saildrive as could the sloop sailors. When going on the downwind the sloop would have an advantage.

what did we do. We took this situation and tried to make it less significant by :

- adding a spi to both , this makes the jib far less important on the downwind and should bring the tw0 closer to eachother on the downwind.

- Make the mainsail larger with respect to the jib, this means the uni loses less saildrive as a result of not having the jib while the overall speed of the sloop would stay the same (more mainsail area for less jib area)

- Make the boat wider, this would help the singlehander sailor by allowing him to delay the act of depowering. It delayed the cut off point where the sloop can still generate more power while the uni has to depower. The additional power of the sloop was probably limited as the mast and sails would flex before more saildrive could be developped, at least that was a consideration that played in the decision. However I think its lightweather effect (more area of the uni = more speed) is far more significant.

- Open sailplan allowing larger square tops. This allows the sail design to be adjusted more to singlehanded sailing meaning the sail twist of better and react better in the gusts. This has now shown to be the case; several of us have experienced this happening


Having said this there are a few inequalities that we simply can not solve. And thus we know we could get the two boat to perform pretty much the same but never perfectly equally.

-1- Righting moment differences wiil always remain. The doublehanded version can just create 200 % of the righting moment as the singlehanded version can. This means that teh saildrive on the doublehander will continue to grow when nearing the double trapeze conditions when that of the singlehander can not. This phenomenon is often seen between the A-cats or F20's and the F18's as well. Any difference (or equality) there was in the lower halve of the wind speed vanished in the upper halve of the windspeed.

-2- A doublehanded crew can just sail the boat more on the edge than a singlehanded crew can. There are just more hands to trim the sails and to make emergency interventions when needed. So even if the singlehanded has the advantage of quick manouvres , the doublehanded crews have a forte on outright boatspeed. This we also knew from the Taipan sloop and Taipan uni situation. Therefor it was commented that the uni likes shorter courses where the doublehander can not really stretch its legs. And visa versa.

To compensate a little for point 2 above we allowed the F16 uni to be rated faster than the F16 sloop. So we allowed the uni, in mathematical models, to have a theoretical higher boatspeed than the sloop. This way we hope than higher speed and less "edgy control" will compensate eachother to a point closer to the doublehanded setup. As a matter of fact the F16 uni has a texel rating of 101 (and was rounded upwards) while the F16 sloop has 102 (rounded off downward). This is different from the Taipan 4.9 uni vs sloop situation (that Eric comments on) which is the other way around. We allowed this rating skewedness to develop also as my personal opinion is that Texel has an offset when it comes down to lightweight singlehanders and the offsets are about 1-2 %. So we skewed the ratings by about 1.4 % = 50 seconds/hour. This way we can at least race first in wins as F16's among ourselfs which was the more important goal than having the same Texel rating for both setups. Sadly the ISAF / SCHRS rating system has an even larger ofset in these cases and that is beyond correction. OF course this is the same handicap problem that the A-cat class has, although in their case it is even more pronounced. Afterall we knew what we were getting into and could optimize the rules to favour us a little more in the ratings.

The comparison Uni - sloop in real life will always be skewed that is a given and we accept that. However I'm quite convinced that the F16 rules will have made the uni and sloop the most comparable in speed of all possible setups using the same hardware. We did actually work hard on this. I think we are at least comparable enough to race first in wins on an acceptable basis; meaning that sailor skill is still 10 times more important than the limits of strongpoints of the particular setup that a crew is sailing. This is enough for fun sailing and most racing.

With regard to F16 vs A-cats :

We knew from the Taipan that the 4.9 uni's (no spi) were comparable to middle fleet to sub top A-cats. We tried to correct this by :

-1- adding the spinnaker; most important part and in my view makes the F16 faster around the course than the A
-2- Adding width. This makes the F16 uni 2 % faster upwind than the Taipan uni which reduces the gap between it and the A's
-3- Enlarging the mainsail from 14.58 to 14.85 (2 % increase) all going to the larger squaretop. Improves gust response and hopefully adds a little speed as well.

I think Eric has points 1 and 3 when he sails but not point 2 (extra width) he is currently sailing at the same width as the A's.


From looking at the results Eric supplied and the results of some tests that were performed I see signs that we are closing the gap to the A's by these modifications. And I trully expect the F16's to be more competive to the A's upwind than before (Taipan 4.9 uni). The spinnaker is all inequality downwind, I know, but as that favours us and keeps us close to 2-up F16's and the F18's so I don't worry about this at all. Afterall we are after the best compromise given many conflicting wishes sailors may have, not after being to fastest singlehander or best in any way. Also I think the A's will eventually go for spi's as well; if they don't than I do think the F16 uni's will proof to dethrone the A's as the fastest singlehander after the 18 squares which are arguably dead as a class.

In my opinion the A-cat will always be the better design upwind, even though the difference may be reduced to "small" indeed. I also think that its relatively slow downwind leg will allow other designs to beat it to the finish line. I think the F16 1-up fits this bill nicely by not losing to much on the upwind leg and win back alot more than needed to compensate for the upwind leg when spinnakering downwind. After 2 or 3 rounds the F16 should edge herself in front. That is of course when the crew is comfortable enough with the spi; it will take more skill to sail the F16 over sailing the A, that will also be true. But that I think is a good thing in itself.

I trully think we made the best decision when focussing on creating the best compromise over being the best in one or two aspects. Now the other classes can adds mods to themselfs , like the A's getting a spi but they still will have a hard time taking on the flexibility of the F16's. You don't convert an A-cat that easily to doublehanded sailing. And if you would do that then you would probably end up with the same performance or even less than the 16's. It will be quite a feature to better the F16's when it comes down to the trio of flexibility, low cost and serious performance.

A lengthy post but I though that this background info would be of interest to us all. I used your post to attach it too but it is definately a post for all and I felt like this was a good time to write it down.

Wouter

I just have received a mail from South Africa explaining to me how the South Africans sees themselfs.

I didn't include them in my "boat-count" in the above post as I was under the impression that the SA mosquito class had adopted the spinnaker as a One-design mosquito class feature. I intepreted this to mean that they preferred to be called Mosquito OD over F16's. This was wrong, that was my mistake. While is true that the spinnaker is fully accepted as a SA mosquito class feature, the SA sailors still wish to be linked to the Formula 16 class as F16's and would like to be counted in our "head-count".

Well, no objections from me ! This just upped our numbers with 17 boats and a good 25-30 sailors.

So the paragraph in my former post should read :

************

"F16 world distribution is about (alfabetically) : Asia 23, Australia 10, EU 40, US 26, South Africa 17 (as counted at their last event, I don't know how many skipped). (116 total)

I didn't include the Aus and German Taipan 4.9 classes as their leaders don't want us to include them. I only counted those Taipan 4.9's that are sailing with a spi and have bought the boat for spi sailing. There are some in Aus who did that. The other aus F16's are the boats like Altered from Gary, Tim's modified Mosquito, Stewarts homebuild as well as the homebuilds of Phill and others.

Nor did I included the Swell Spitfires as they are a seperate OD class. Of course we will continue to welcome them to our class format and we look forward to racing them."

************

Again my appologies I meant nothing by other than doing what I understood as being the prefered way.

Good luck to you there in the south and keep us warm with your stories during our cold winter months !

Regards,

Wouter

sailwave ,

A year ago I nearly bought an A-class cat rather than the Taipan F16 I currently own. The A-Cat fleet in Santa Cruz, California is growing and attracting some really accomplished athletes from the 505 and other very competitive performance monohull fleets (though ,i've yet to see any of these guy's actually show up to a regatta).I too was drawn to the A-cats asthetic and simplity, plus, the thought of sailing w/ some of the very best sail athletes around was a plus as I aspire to improve.So, why did I choose the F16 when all of these other factors weighed so heavily in favor of the Acat? With the little I know about sailing (three years tenure from motocross racing) and sail racing(mostly swimming around in S.F.Bay chasing my skiff) - i'm certain that I want to sail downhill with an asymmetrical kite - the kite really makes that much of a difference to me.
As for my boat to boat experience vs. the Acat? I sailed the first four regattas in my F16 with way too much spreader rake(610mm for you taipan guys)and my windward boat speed suffered. When I sorted stuff out (oh, that read 710mm of rake -*&#@ !!) and I sailed against a very good Acat sailor, with "top of the fleet" boatspeed (vs. other Acats), who could sail race after race w/ close to zero mistakes, and still finished real close or ahead of him boat to boat - I figured i'd made the right purchase...I wonder how well and for how long, the talent filled international Acat fleet will accept seeing the boat Wouter sketched out on a napkin during his lunch hour (...probably not true but i love the image), fly by your asthetically pleasing and elegantly simple "A's" born from decades of incremental improvement...
Regardless,sail what pleases you !

pk

Hi Sailwave,

I hope you have read most of my F16 oneup thread before making this decision. I know it is lengthy, it's been going for a while.

You are going through many of the same thoughts I did, except I couldn't possibly live without a spinnaker!!!!!!!! I believe it is difficult to get a one up boat to go as fast as a two up boat but the A class in Australia show it is possible. They are at the front of the fleet even in the strong winds, against F18, Taipan sloop etc.

So my answer is to use thier one up refinement for a F16. I believe for a oneup to go straight up against a two up it must have everything in it's favour as the A cat does minimull hull etc. Not just a two up without the jib. Pity it's to early to tell you the result of my experiment but in the next few months hopefully I will know.

Believe me I wouldn't be sailing F16 if it wasn't the most fun you can have on the water and the physical challenge of sailing one up with the spinnaker leaves anything the A has to offer for dead.

Regards Gary.

Hi guys,

Gary, I`m quite intrigued by your comments, our perception from SA is that the Aus Mozzie sailors have always been faster than their sloop counterparts, is this just a factor of the best sailors in the fleet choosing to sail solo ?

My findings in the Mozzie fleet in SA after last weekends racing : The solo mozzie (with spin) is as fast as the sloop (also with spin) in up to 12 knots, and even faster downwind, but suffers a bit upwind in more breeze, and can`t sail as high for speed downwind, but this is seldom necessary unless you overstand the gybe & come in hot to the bottom mark. Then of course the take-down becomes cute (interesting, but ugly). Sailing solo I won`t be too keen on hoisting in more than 18 knots. I`m imagining that the full F16 will find it`s limits a bit sooner, but other factors come into play so I could be very wrong. More bouyancy, more width, higher aspect main with more twist-off at the top could make it even more manageable. My theory has always been to keep the power as low as you can so it`s pushing you more forward than sideways / over the nose, which is why I like low-aspect ratio rigs, then again maybe my 67kg weight is not up to a full F16 rig !!

These are just my observations and of course will differ from those sailing full F16 boats. All I can say is having done 90% of my sailing as sloop, solo is a ton of hard work with the kite up, but what a ride !!!

Hi there F16ers,
interesting to hear your views on the kite downwind. Similar to 'sailwave', I'm interested in a one-up boat to supplement my H16 racing when crews not around. Obvious choices are A cat or Taipan 4.9 or F16.

My only kite experience is on a T5.7 in 15-18kts (perfect), the boat was so smooth and fast but actually it felt slow. My H16 feels faster downwind though I know its nowhere near it. Maybe the perception of speed with spray going everywhere is a little distortionate!

So my question is, Why do you guys feel spi is the only way to go downwind? Describe the difference? Surely going wild on an A would be as good a feeling as spi sailing and both should be better than sailing flat on a hobie!

Cheers Phil

I reckon going wild is heaps more fun on a Taipan 4.9, especially when you have a crew. You are more involved in keeping the boat going quick rather than being dragged along by the kite. I still like putting up the kite up occasionally, but find it boring at times as skipper. Not much to do except steer.

Personally I don't think that in the club racing that I do the kite on the 4.9 is that much quicker. The courses are fairly short (40 minutes total). Longer courses definately favour the kite. Last weekend matched for speed a Capricorn downwind in 8-10 knots whilst going wild.

1-up may be a different matter with the Taipan 4.9 as you don't have the jib to help you fly a hull. The kite is definately a bonus here.

JC

"Spi OR going wild" should be reworded to "Spi AND going wild". Combine the best of both worlds and get that boat really going.

You'll sail faster and deeper and work the traveller and tiller continiously to keep the luff hull just out of the water.

I admit that sailing Wild without a spi is more difficult than sailing wild with the spinnaker. The power of the spi and I think the extra speed make the boat more docile, as in less nervous.

In my experience, the team coordination required with a kite especially in 10 knots or over and during hoists and drops makes the kite alot of fun for me as well. On short course the most critical aspects are setting and doucing the kite quickly and cleanly. Second comes "not flog the kite once". On short course the skill in these area's is paramount.

Wouter

These are personal opinions. Arguably most of experiences are doublehanded. So I hope some others will jump in fill in the singlehanded area.

For me sailing with a spinnaker is an end to the boring slow downwind legs where the picking order is often along crew weight lines. I sailed Prindle 16's and Hobie 16's for years and eventually we found that sailing deep with the main boomed out was often the fastest way to sail downwind on these boats. Heating it up was arguably more fun but was detrimental to your final standings against other P16's/H16's as well as other boats under Handicap rating racing.

I must add to this I sail heavy; meaning between 150 and 170 kg's and arguable I need a F18 or F20 to be competitive at my weight. This is important in my appreciation of the kite.

-1- The kite shifts the focus a long way towards skill and handling over boat-crew weight combinations

Simply put ; to sail with a kite is easy to learn and to do. Sailing really well with a kite is a whole lot of work. You have much added handling on board that makes doing everything without errors more difficult. It is like the difference between juggling with 3 balls or with 4. As a result the end result in more determined by skill, practice hours and tackics than by the old design-crewweight combo. It must also be realized that the hotter angles that are sailed with a kite allow boats to venture out more to each side and thus differences in windpatterns have a greater influence (tactics). On the P16's/H16's sailing deep and almost straight down the middle was limiting this strongly.

-2- The downwind leg went from the biggest timeslice in a race to the shortest one.

This makes my advantage as a heavy weight less important in the overall result once again as my extra righting moment corrects out over some of the drag disadvantage I have upwind. The whole race has become much more fast paced. Right now the downwind legs are best described by "hectic" Especially when the winds are picking up.

-3- Power is abundant in anything over 8 knots

This makes for spectacular sailing on downwind courses especially when neck to neck with your competition. Gibing duels are extremely demanding of skills and stamina. Every single error like a flog or a slow gibe will cost you boatlengths of distance. Everything must be executed perfectly or else the other will motor away. Nearing the C-mark while duelling and do a game of chicken is great fun. Douce to soon and you are out of the game. Douce to late and you'll greatly overstep the mark and loose meters that you need to win back on the upwind. Timing at this bouy is ENORMOUSLY important. With practice you sail right up to the mark, drop the kite and round the mark in one manouvre. Believe me; this takes hours of practise. Not because it is difficult but because you need to have perfect timing under changing conditions. The kick it gives when you master this is enormous in my perception.

-4- With a kite you'll reduce non-kite sailors to tears or rage.

Simply put, at first you'll be slower with a kite. Than after getting used to it and when climbing the learning curve you will out sail everything that does not fly a kite. The speed is just so much higher. Have you ever worked your way through a field of say H16's under a kite in say 10 knots ? You won't feel slow anymore.

-5- Team work that is required

I really enjoy the team work and coordination that the kite requires. In the past the skipper could sail the boat and tell any unexperienced crew when to pull on the jib sheet or not. With the spinnaker the crew is 60 % of the final result. If you don't connect with him or her then you will not get the maximum out of the boat and your placings will show this. However when you start working together like skiffies you can propel the boat to great performance. I like this alot.

-6- When solo sailing the feel for speed and handling is even greater. (accelleration)

It is challenge and victory over oneself to sail cleanly and fast. And you can trapeze downwind now in almost any windstrength. Trapezing is fun. Hunting down A-cats on a downwind is fun. Distance racing in 8-10 knots singlehanded on a spi boat is heaven. Elevated above the water surface, hanging from the trapeze. Spray far away, waves rushing past underneath you. Wind in your hear and silent running. Compare that to hugging the mast and boom while doing the wildthing getting sprayed.


Humm, have to go to bed now.

Maybe more later

Wouter

Ahh, yes. A great deal of teamwork is needed, and the crew needs to understand the kite and how the boat is sailed.

Taking a new crew out is hard on the skipper tough, as he constantly needs to remind himself not to correct the new crew every 2-4 seconds. Every 30 seconds is the limit, or else the crew will be very frustrated

that is a very good point.

Hey Taipanfc,
It really doesn`t matter which is faster. Once you`ve sailed solo with the kite up, you look at downwind differently. you want to rush out & buy a blue wetsuit, and wear red underwear on the outside.

Cheers
Steve

Having said all this I must underline the importance of having a trully modern cut spinnaker.

The high aspected kinds with a flat cut. These spinnakers are build for speed and they deliver. Up till a few years ago some sailmakers made the spinnaker to full for a catamaran and the boats wouldn't reach topspeed while using them. The kite would collapse as a result of the apparent wind rotating so far forward. This could only be solved by pointing lower. Thus the VMG was not to bad but the speed sensation was less than what you get with the high aspected and flat spis. Goodall Yacht sail used to produce the older cut spis for quite a time. But Pretty much since beginning 2003 they are producing the newer cut. I have sailed with both and the difference is striking. Also the newer cut spi have alot lee helm than before. In the case of my boat and Geerts we have no lee helm with the new spis.

While it is true that development (or rather refinement) continues in the design of spi it is also true that the largest part of the developement curve has been covered by now. So I don't really think that the need to buy new spis after a short timespan is a realistic one anymore. Pretty much any modern spi of today will be competitive where the smaller developments of today will only make a significant difference when summed up over several years. This is simply not a problem as any competitive sailor wants or needs to buy a new set of sails at least every 2 years anyways. This was never any different in the time before the spi as well. Often the old spi is used during practice untill it is destroyed where the new spi is only used during races and practice races. It is not unusual to use a spi for 4 to 5 years, when a little care is taken.

Personally I think the best sailing with the spi is done at 10-12 knots. Here the speed increase with the spi is the biggest and it really feels like you are going downhill on some greased ski's. In the past the "AHAAAH" feeling on the downwind was only encountered afater 15 knots. Now it is experienced much earlier. Only time the spi doesn't really help is when wind are below 4 knots. Here the spi doesn't fill properly and it feels like the non-spi boats keep up. Some advantage is kept to the high wind part of the spectrum, often make the boat more docile as well.

That is why I don't want to sail without a spinnaker.

It adds more meat to the experience, it makes racing more fair by making skill and handling more important then before, it feels good when sailed well and therefor fast.

Wouter

What is the strongest windspeed you think it feasible to sail with spin?

Mark.

Hi Steve,
should have known you would pick me up on the mossies. I thought about it whilst making the post but didn't want to complicate things. I believe the competitivness of the one up mossie against two up, is because of the mossie being underpowered for two up. Which slows the two ups down not allowing them to use their weight advantage. Unless Of course it's 20 kts. plus. The Australian champions in both one and two up are very close to the same speed up to 20 kts.

But you are correct in saying the one ups have had the upper hand in Victoria in recent years partly due to weight of numbers but hopefully this will change soon.

By the way I am not surprised you prefer two up at 67kg. I am 90 kg., could explain why I hope to handle full F16 one up rig hey.

Regards Gary.

Hi all,
couldn't possibly keep my nose out of this discussion. Re how it feels under spinnaker,wildthing, maximum windspeed etc.

How it feels as in being dragged along by the kite or feeling fast is exactly the point. You have to dedicate yourself to the spinnaker, anybody can put one up and get dragged along but to get the speed takes feel which only comes with time. The feel of getting the most out of the boat under a well cut spinnaker is hard to describe. I equate it best back to the feel of when I sailed slalom sailboards you follow the apparent wind and feel totaly at one with the sail.
The difference in speed is enormous just ask the many larger cats who only used their kites occasionaly that I passed on my Mossie with spin last season.

As far as wildthing is concerned we had started doing it on Mossies before we fitted the spinnaker it was good training for sailing with spin., I think the kite just makes it easier no sitting to leeward in the spray.

As for maximum windspeed from what I have experienced if you can still sail you can put the kite up but again you have to work up to it. So far I have seen them up in 25 to 30 kts.

Regards Gary.

>>What is the strongest windspeed you think it feasible to sail with spin?


You won't believe it but I think the spi can be sailed with control all the way up to where you would sail without one.
I'm talking doublehanding here, singlehanding tops off earlier simple because the hoist and drop are limiting you. Actually, and this may sound strange, but some 3 years now all the spinnaker boats (started with F18's) RATHER sail WITH a spinnaker in a blow than without. Mostly because the pitchpole is not as dominant with a spinnaker as when sailing without. Pretty much you get blown over sideways much sooner than you pitchpole, this means that you are steering the boat fully on keeping the luff hull just skimming the water. This balance point is encountered much sooner than any dive threshold. Ergo you feel more in control of the boat. Capsizes are of course easily handled by steering and working the traveller. Dive on the other hand are most "Hang on for dear life and hope she won't go over". From the crews prespective you are not constantly pinning yourself against the hull to withstand the dive decelleration that may hit at any time.

Trully I think exactly the same on the F16 under spi. I've sailed two distances race with it in 20-23 knots of wind, at one time some 10 miles out of shore among serious swell and chop, and was comfortably spinnakering for long periods. She feels more docile even though everything happens faster than on a non-spi boat.

recent past round texel races show all spi boat pulling spi in any condition. Often this race is held at winds between 16 - 25 knots.

One thing, to pull and retrieve the kite at 20 knots wind for the first time is somewhat of a personal victory. Not that it is hard but it is like lighting/killing the overdimensioned afterburners and that creates some butterflies in your belly. With the wind howling at your ears your first instinct is not to just double the amount of sailarea; especially not when it is unbattened and flapping violantly. When you are about to retrieve it than the butterflies come from being out there to keep the boat horizontal and having to come in and let the spi flap violantly again. After you became comfortable with the spi in 8-15 knots and have done the first few hoists in 15-24 knots you quickly become comfortable with it and in hindsight it will all seem a big fuss over nothing. And hey guys like me used to do this stuff by hand on the far lee side of the boat. With todays snuffers the butterfly effect is much less than in the first days.

One important trick is, and that is why you need to get experienced at hoist and drops in 8-15 knots first, to understand that speed is everything. Quick, but fully controlled, hoists and drops prevent things from going wrong. Slow hoists and drops tend to hang on stuff. Also, always pull in the retrieval line, pull it tight, before uncleating the halyard, Then with 2 to 3 quick pulls get a least 60 % of the spi in the bag. The rest will than follow nicely.

A second trick is to tie bungee cords betweent the tips of the spreaders and the side stays. This prevents the spi from being blown between these two and hang up on the spreader arms. However this seems to be less important now with the modern high aspected spinnakers and the snuffers.

Wouter

"Also the newer cut spi have alot lee helm than before."

Should read ;

"Also the newer cut spi have alot LESS lee helm than before."

Although the leehelm was not huge with the older spis. But the newer ones are almost perfectly belanced.

Wouter

I totally agree with gary here.

Actually the being dragged along is a way in which crews overhere depower their kites. Today, you won't see any serious F18 crew flog there kites on the downwind in gusty conditions. It does involve a decent amount of anticipation but mainly what they do right before or when a gust hits is to pull the spi sheet tight and bear-off simulataniously. Once the gust has passed the skipper heads up slow again while the crew slacks of the sheet. This is serious teamwork but when you get it right it really does work well. You keep you speed and you can keep your boat perfecty flat.

The theory behind it is that you flatten the spi once you pull the spi sheet tight and that this causes the spi to stall. This collapses these lift produced by the spi while keeping the aerodynamic drag still less than when you flog the kite. It is common knowlegde that nothing is as aerodynamically draggy as a vibrating or even flapping cloth. This also means that there is still pressure on the spi to help the boat to bear off. In addition, the bearing off itself will make the spi stall even more because you again increase the angle of attack. This setup also allows you to quickly reattach the flow once the gust has passed. Simply letting the sheet out will reattach the flow and power up the boat. During the heading up part you slightly pull it back in to keep the optimal flow as the angle of attack is decreased.

Now the first time you do this your heart will be in your throat. It is seriously against your instincts to pull harder on a sheet during a gust when the boat starts to heel. But you and you skipper work together than it does really work well and keeps you at full speed.

Actually the old addagio is very much correct. If you hear the spi ratchet stop clicking for more than 5 seconds than it is time to wake up your crew. If your skipper is not continiously snaking the boat through S-curves in a gently manner than it is time to wake up your skipper.

Work, work, work that spi. And all the skipper does is steer to the needs of the kite, keeping the boat flat, while calling out approaching gusts. Actually the crew only looks at the luff of the spi while the skipper looks past the spi ahead for gusts and boats and steers completely on feel and anticipated gusts.

Maybe you can tell from my enthousiasm but when you get this down to being an oiled machine the kick you get is addictive. Than you are really sailing that boat togeher and sailing it really fast. Much different from the lazy deep downwinders where the crew can look at the clouds while holding the jib sheet out on the leeward hull.

Wouter

Hey guys, great spi discussion. Unfortunately my current cat (H17) doesn't have one but I am looking forward to an F16 with spi in the future. Only spi experience I currently have is limited and on a dinghy. So, I've got a question about managing the spi on cats. I understand normal operating procedure is to keep the main and traveller fairly sheeted while continuously steering the boat and trimming the spi unless it's necessary to ease the traveller (in gusts or significantly increased average windspeed). My question is that on my H17, once the main is sheeted to any degree it's not possible to ease the traveller (or the outhaul for that matter) without first easing the mainsheet. It's a real pain and not a great idea if a spi were flying. I'm not sure if it's something specific to my boat, all H17's, or all cats. I have seen it happen on H16's as well. I've tried McLube to no avail and the traveller bearings seem ok when unloaded. It could have something to due with the fact that the rear beam on the H17 is curved (convex upward) so when the traveller moves out it's like sheeting the main even further. Is this behavior something F16 and other cat sailors experience or is just me and my H17? I couldn't imagine trying to dynamically change traveller trim on this boat while singlehanding a spi!

Thanks for the input,

Jerry

Hi Jerry,
can only guess it is your boat or Hobie 17. All cats I have sailed traveller moves happily under load. Although my preference one up is to ease main to twist head of sail rather than dropping traveller and I don't ease main that often as it is cleated hands are busy on spin. sheet and rudder.
Regards Gary.

>>Hi all. I asked this question on the F16 forum but only got one reply.

I remember that posting. I thought at the time that I shouldn't forget about replying to it. Then that whole spitfire-aruba thread boomed and we went from one post to many others.

I short I'm sorry to say that in my experience you can forget about moving the traveller car under sheetload on pretty much all older Hobie designs. Meaning h14, H16, H17 and TheMightyHobie18. Maybe on some lakes it is better but overhere on the sandy beach with beach side parking. The damn things were always jammed. Come to think of it. The harken recirculating ball traveller seem to have problems as well. The stuff that works are the Prindle wheeled cars and the I-track traveller rails with stainless wheeled cars. Harken RC will work after you spend a few minutes cleaning the cars out. Hobie system were always "don't even try". Of course the newer Hobies likes Tigers, Foxes and FX-ones have the more modern setups and these RC systems do work with a little care.

Personally I would try to figure out a different methode of sailing with a spi on the H17 than was discussed on the F16 forum.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

And ohh, that curved beam is not helping you either. On F16's, like Gary said, the systems do allow moving the traveller under load in some setups even very well. I switched to the I-track system and I can sheet on hard and still trim my maintraveller with just 1:2 and one hand, easily even. I never clean the track or care out. It doesn't need that, unlike the RC systems. So yes it can easily be done if you have the right system. If not than you'll just have to find some other way.

Wouter

Thanks, Wouter.

With the I track system can you ease it as well as sheet it under high mainsheet load? I'm assuming you can do this on Taipan F16's and Blade F16's?

Jerry

>With the I track system can you ease it as well as sheet it under high mainsheet load? I'm assuming you can do this on Taipan F16's and Blade F16's?


I can ! And the force on it is alot lower than I expected it to be. Before I sailed the boat I was thinking about using a 3:1 system on the traveller but after sailing it I haven't given it second thoughts. 2:1 is enough. I do have the centred cleat on the beam instead of the cleat on the car itself as alot of boats seem to be having nowadays. The reduces the force on the line and cleat when the traveller line is cleated, it also pulls the car less sideways and thus results in less friction. Actually I believe that the centre cleat system is the only setup that should be used with wheeled cars on the I-track.

I currently use the Ronstan 19 mm I track with a 6-wheel car. And I'm loving it. It was bloody cost effective and works better than all other systems I ever used with only the possible exception of the X-rail of RWO but don't sell this anymore.

Go to http://www.ronstan.com/catalogue/p072,supp003.pdf

and look for RC61912 (The 6 wheeled car with ballbarings) when I bought it it was called the RF331 (for old catalogies)

Seriously, I need to put quite a bit of tension on my mainsail leech while sailing with a spi to prevent the top from bending off to much. And under spi I just hold the traveller line in my hand and work the gusts with it. I can do that for a long time without getting tired. The ronstan swivel cleat RF67 works excellent as well.

As a matter of fact I use a curved 19 mm I-beam with the smaller 4 wheeled car RC61945 (old code RF334) for my selftacker. AHPC made a very nice setup of it and it weights less than the Nacra F18 fibreclass system and I suspect it weights less as the Tigers as well. It is non permanently fixed and therefor can be taken off leaving only 4 small feet on the mainbeam. But what I wanted to say was that it works absolutely perfect as well. It hasn't ever jammed or hung up on me ever yet.

Maybe you can tell but I'm sold on these parts. When the boat was build I really want the X-rails to go on it and even source these but do to uncooperating chandlers I had to compromise for the I-beam but again these have proved more than adequate and I have absolutely no regrets for not having the X-rails.

I have no idea what is featured on the Blades. I do know that the Taipan F16's are delivered with these I-beams. Although they can also be delivered with the newer Recirculating Ball (RCB) systems on request. The standard Taipan 4.9's have the RCB systems. They work well enough but you just have to take care of them and the rail. A little grease and sand clogs them up and small dents in the rail quite quickly hinder smooth movement due to the small balls. I-beam has neither of these issues. And I've used all of them extensively now.

Wouter

Hi Jerry,

My stock Taipan 4.9 traveller moves quite freely under full load, ie under mainsheet tension with or without the spinnaker up. And thank goodness it does.

Thanks, Wouter (and Eric). Great input!
So does your outhaul also trim/ease easily under mainsheet load?
Sorry to say mine doesn't

Jerry

>>So does your outhaul also trim/ease easily under mainsheet load?

Well mine doesn't yet as I'm still using a quick fix there. I was in a hurry to get the boat sorted and since then haven't taken the time to build the system that I want. Actually it is a piece of cake but I haven't got round to it. It is more or less the same as the Taipan system but than 4:1 and using less blocks. The Taipan system works really well and again smoothly. No rail or car are used here. Only a loop that goes around the boom and transmits the load directly from the mainsheet to the mainsail. Only drawback is that while broad reaching under main sail alone the foot of the mainsail is pulled tight because the traveller is far out. However when sailing with a spinnaker the maintraveller is much further in and so this drawback is not present anymore. For spi sailing this system is the best, the cheapest and does all you want.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter. I've seen that system on more modern boats and it does look like it should work well plus it lets you use a thinner and lighter boom. You're right, it's the car in the boom on my H17 which is binding under load and that would't happen with the other system. The only disadvantage that I can think of with the system you describe is that it doesn't allow you to quickly/easily disconnect the mainsheet clew from the boom using a quick pin which can be useful on the beach.

Jerry

Why can't you have the quick release shackle/pin between the mainsail eye and the loop in my system ?

Wouter

If your boat has an eye/grommet in the clew of the mainsail you certainly could. However, the boats that I've seen that have implemented similar systems such as Tiger/FX1 and I think some A-cats use a webbing loop which is permanently sewn to the clew. You'd have to have a sailmaker modify the sail (or not use the sewn in loop) in that case.

Jerry

Why not use two webbing loops attached by a small piece of rope?

Have the loop from the mains'l going around the boom and have the outhaul attached to the end of the sail. Then have another loop behind the first one that the Mainsheet is attached to. Have the two loops tied together by a 3mm piece of spectra, for instance, about 10-15cm long.

When the outhaul is tight for upwind, the mainsail loop holds out the mainsheet loop. When the outhaul is loose and the boom is wide, the mainsail loop can move along the boom to wherever it likes and the mainsheet loop will be further out on the boom and not pulling it out as much.

Personally I don't find it too much of a problem. When running downwind in very light weather where the mainsheet pulls the foot flat(ish) when the outhaul is loose, you're most likely moving at quite high apparent wind speed at deck level anyway and would want a flatter shape. Once the breeze fills in a little, then the sail has some force in it to pull the foot into a curve anyway so its not too much of a problem.
I think getting the amount of twist in the mainsail and especially the jib in very light weather is much more important than the outhaul trim.

I get the impression you are describing a system like that on the Spitfire - a picture says a thousand words, and I am sad enough to have a photo (taken when I bought the boat, so I could reassemble it!). I have found out since that the outhaul (yellow rope) should go through the foremost hole, not the rear one.

It is a really simple system
- the outhaul emerges from the boom, goes through the eyelet in the sail and a knot in the end is slotted in a groove at the rear end of the boom.
- the blue string hanging from the mainsail has a quick release hook / caribiner, which connects to the top mainsheet block.

Both the outhaul and the mainsheet can be dis/connected very quickly.

Cheers
Simon

You guys just keep surprising me. Typically the start of the winter is a quiet time. But what do F16 sailors do ? Catch up on the gossip, discuss some traveller and outhauls systems. Do some brain (if not artistic) work-out on rules of racing. Win two races and than find time to whip up some support for a second edition of a mixed A-cat/ F16 1-up regatta. I'm up to my neck in e-mails and communication regarding new blood. And in the mean time we all worked up some 130 posts in 3 weeks time = average 43 posts a week ! Talking about logging on to get your delay ration ! You bloody have too or risk getting swamped.

I have to do alot of Math during the daytime, I'm upgrading my degree, and it is just great to be able to log on during the little breaks and find a new posting or even several new ones.

Thank you, thank you all. Trully

Wouter

It's just starting to get nice and warm down here in Aus. Been sailing for nearly three months and will sail until April next year.

I've attached a picture of what I was thinking of, the system in the photo off the spitfire is basically exactly the same as the Taipan, just with rope instead of webbing (and a big fat clewboard).

The system I was thinking of involves two webbing loops tied together with some small rope. I've seen it used before, but in my mind its still un-necessarily complex and only of use for very light winds.

Why do you stop? We stop when the snow blocks the launching ramp, or the sheets freeze.. I tought the temperature stayed sailable year round in Aus?


Rolf

Australia's a bloody big place! In the north its certainly sailable all year round (even in Sydney if you're really keen) but I'm in kind of a sub-alpine area and whilst its not ice blocks, it snows here once or twice each winter.

Plus, when its cold, its generally blowing 20kts+ and really not very nice out on the water. Do-able, but not very nice.

Yes it is certainly sailable all year here but I think year-round sailing might take a bit of a toll on family life