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#265813 - 10/07/13 06:00 PM big boy sails - polling is now open  
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Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1T-CF0oavc-Er5_9ab5qIlN5VjnvQrKjYew9PHBSahTw/viewform

Extra large sails for the fuller (over 165kg/365 pounds) sailor. probably a fair thing.

Would you use XL sails?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 10/07/13 05:58 PM
Last edited by Dazz; 10/07/13 09:48 PM.

C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
-- Have You Seen This? --
#265817 - 10/07/13 09:08 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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To be clear, the google poll is for informational purposes only- IT IS NOT A VOTE. The international class is considering looking into a larger sail set, and wanted to know if there is interest. I made the poll for the US Fleet, and it has spread worldwide. I have almost 100 responses so far, should give good information on how to proceed.

Best,
Jeff


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#265818 - 10/07/13 09:47 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
So what has been the typical response so far Jeff? this poll came to me via facebook this morning in Oz.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#265831 - 10/08/13 07:20 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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Currently have 102 responses from 17 countries. Seems to be interest in developing a larger sail set, but the response is not unanimous. I plan to close the poll on Wednesday evening.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#265842 - 10/08/13 09:04 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Jeff.Dusek]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,515
Naples, FL
buy a bigger boat?


Jay

#265844 - 10/08/13 09:22 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Are there any details regarding this proposal? Bigger sails in what way? How the fat boy sail plan is implemented would influence my opinion.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#265851 - 10/08/13 11:09 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Current discussion is to keep the same main and increase size of the jib and spinnaker. The world council is trying to act very cautiously on this issue, and is seeking input from the technical committee, builders, sailmakers, and class membership through the poll. If anyone has additional comments they can also pass them along to Mike or I. This issue could also be a topic of discussion at the US class meeting in Sarasota.

So far, I am very impressed with the diligence the class is putting into even considering such a large change.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#265854 - 10/08/13 12:16 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Jeff.Dusek]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Current discussion is to keep the same main and increase size of the jib and spinnaker. The world council is trying to act very cautiously on this issue, and is seeking input from the technical committee, builders, sailmakers, and class membership through the poll. If anyone has additional comments they can also pass them along to Mike or I. This issue could also be a topic of discussion at the US class meeting in Sarasota.

So far, I am very impressed with the diligence the class is putting into even considering such a large change.


The only way to improve the spin performance is to increase the luff length which creates issues in carrying it. The next issue and is the big one for me is that it's another opportunity for abuse. I don't want to see teams carrying the larger spin when they don't meet the weight for the sail plan. You and I both know this will be abused. If you can tell me every light team in the fleet is carrying the proper corrector weight at all regatta's then I might be able to get onboard otherwise it's just another option that won't attract new teams and carries more hassle than it's worth. Don't forget the Frenchies lobbied hard and won for light teams to carry the larger sail plan and carry the corrector weight and their argument was all the development was on the large sail plan won't this create the same perceived disparity?

If this does go through will smaller teams be allowed to carry corrector weight so they can run the larger sail plan? It all gets so complicated for how much gain in participation?

All this is coming from a guy that has sailed 380 for the entire time he has been sailing F18's. So, in my opinion it aint broke so don't try and fix it.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#265856 - 10/08/13 12:49 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Thanks Dave, your input is greatly appreciated. Many things still to be decided. I am not on the world council, so I will be passing the poll results and additional comments to Mike.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#265857 - 10/08/13 12:54 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Jeff.Dusek]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Thanks Dave, your input is greatly appreciated. Many things still to be decided. I am not on the world council, so I will be passing the poll results and additional comments to Mike.


Which country is sponsoring this change? I can't see the French or the Dutchies being in favor.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#265888 - 10/09/13 09:05 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 850
samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Current discussion is to keep the same main and increase size of the jib and spinnaker. The world council is trying to act very cautiously on this issue, and is seeking input from the technical committee, builders, sailmakers, and class membership through the poll. If anyone has additional comments they can also pass them along to Mike or I. This issue could also be a topic of discussion at the US class meeting in Sarasota.

So far, I am very impressed with the diligence the class is putting into even considering such a large change.


The only way to improve the spin performance is to increase the luff length which creates issues in carrying it. The next issue and is the big one for me is that it's another opportunity for abuse. I don't want to see teams carrying the larger spin when they don't meet the weight for the sail plan. You and I both know this will be abused. If you can tell me every light team in the fleet is carrying the proper corrector weight at all regatta's then I might be able to get onboard otherwise it's just another option that won't attract new teams and carries more hassle than it's worth. Don't forget the Frenchies lobbied hard and won for light teams to carry the larger sail plan and carry the corrector weight and their argument was all the development was on the large sail plan won't this create the same perceived disparity?

If this does go through will smaller teams be allowed to carry corrector weight so they can run the larger sail plan? It all gets so complicated for how much gain in participation?

All this is coming from a guy that has sailed 380 for the entire time he has been sailing F18's. So, in my opinion it aint broke so don't try and fix it.


I agree with Dave on this issue and have stated so elsewhere. We sail at 310 lbs naked bone dry naked, but have been carrying 17 lbs of lead at all events (yes, 7 lbs more, its easier to loose lead than find it), to carry the larger sail plan. I have evaluated switching to the smaller sail plan, but every sail maker we've spoken with says it isn't as refined as the large sail plan. This is somewhat ironic, because the smaller sail plan is very close in area to the Nacra 17, a boat that is ideal for our crew weight, but is 100 lbs lighter. I guess I don't follow how the smaller jib and spinnaker are less refined, given they are just smaller versions of the large sail plan...what I do know is I can go to the gym some more and we can hold down the large spinnaker and be quick. If a 2013 small jib had equal refinement to the large jib, we might loose some drag upwind in over 12kts and hence be faster round the course even carrying lead+large spinnaker. Unfortunately no one is 100% accurate about the weather for a 5 day event. I am sure someone has tried switching sail plans at an event before...how are we going to police a third sail plan, when we aren't even strictly policing weight due to lack of resources and effort?

Last edited by samc99us; 10/09/13 09:08 AM.

F18 Infusion
#265897 - 10/09/13 11:33 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Currently at 112 responses from all over the world. Please submit responses by tonight as I will be closing the poll. Thanks for all the feedback.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#265916 - 10/09/13 02:02 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
As an outsider looking in, this doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Just my $.02.

If my F18 membership were current, I would vote but being that it isn't, I will not be.


I'm boatless.
#265920 - 10/09/13 03:31 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Posts: 850
Solomon's Island, MD
KISS. Big boy teams here aren't switching because of boat cost. A used N20 is about $5-6K, new sails add $3K, you've got an $8K platform that is faster than a F18 in under 5kts of breeze (typical Chesapeake summer sailing condition). We've done enough this season to show we are fast in all other conditions and can hold on in the light. Adding the XL sail plan probably won't convince the two teams at 380+ lbs to switch to the F18.


F18 Infusion
#266030 - 10/10/13 03:33 PM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: samc99us]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
conversely, you could develop an N20 small sailplan? Even though it's smod


Jay

#266067 - 10/11/13 07:21 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Lol, SMOD...one of the many reasons we don't have another N20 or a Nacra 17. F18 all the way.


F18 Infusion
#266070 - 10/11/13 08:46 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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Poll is now closed. I put together a summary of results from the poll and emails I received and passed it to Mike. He will review and submit to the world council on behalf of the US class association. Thanks everyone for playing.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#266071 - 10/11/13 08:53 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
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+31NL
Why not just make it public?, keeps everything transparent.

#266072 - 10/11/13 09:04 AM Re: big boy sails - voting is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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I will check with about making the poll results public, shouldn't be an issue. I'm not on the world council, so not really my call, just trying to be helpful.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#266520 - 10/27/13 07:15 PM Re: big boy sails - polling is now open [Re: Dazz]  
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Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
looks like its going to happen.

Item No: 13.

Development of XL sails. There was a suggestion from USA, and then supported by Holland, that there ought to be “larger sails for larger sailors”. We have done considerable number of emails and surveys in US on this subject and the Council needs to consider the development for final decision.

The final summary is that :

Crews 175 kg and over can sail with standard mainsail, a jib of 4.5 sqm OR 4.6 sqm, and a spinnaker of 23 sqm.

IT was thought better not to have rules on jib or spinnaker cuts but to leave that to individual sail makers.

The XL sails cannot be used in any National or International regatta for a trial period of TWO years.

The serious message must go out that this is NOT a rule change, but an addition to the weight category and does not effect the rules in any way.

There was concern that some sailors under 175 kg would buy these sails for long distance and handicap racing, therefore breaking one of the Guiding Principles for F18 sailors, that we don’t have different handicaps for F18 boats.

We are still awaiting final technical information, concerning the sailing characteristics and likely performance data, which will be forwarded shortly.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
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