Ok, a question for input on what criteria folks use when they select the scale for the windspeed corrections when scoring Portsmouth.

The simple question is this - do you just consider what the windspeed is, or are you also judging the sea-state and requiring BOTH the wind speed and wave heights to match the Beaufort scale to use?

Background for me asking this: We're a pretty bare-bones outfit, we have no committee for our weekly races. Our format is a fixed start and finish line, and we use government and keelboat racing marks. We try to incorporate upwind downwind, but the format is best described as mini-distance races (point here is that we don't have square start/finish, and the racing isn't always strict upwind/downwind - it's still fun, trust me...). We choose somebody to run the starting sequence on the water, and everybody takes their own times that are reported back to me to do the scoring (SailWave). I choose the wind range, based upon what conditions I see on the water during the race. Our venue in the river and out into the Bay means that we can see varying conditions, and you may see wind without chop, and chop without wind. But again, I base the choice on the wind conditions that we see the most of during the race. And yes, it's subjective and based on experience, not an instrument. And to avoid any criticism that I'm cooking the numbers for my gain, I pick it ahead of entering in results, and I don't engage in changing it unless there's a consensus to do so.

Anyway, it was brought to my attention that perhaps I'm doing things wrong by not including the sea state in choosing the beaufort range, and that if the sea state doesn't match the description I should drop the range down. So, for instance, if the wind we are experiencing meets category 4 (11-16 knots), but the waves aren't up to it, the point was I should choose the 2-3 category. We've always based on the wind range, but I'm willing to consider options. One point I have is that on semi-protected waters you may not ever generate the wave-state seen in open water for the same winds. I'd hate to be always scoring in 0-1 or 2-3 if we stay in the Harbor...

Anyway, any thoughts from those who run scoring? And I mean actual thoughts on this problem. I know OD cuts this out, so I'm not looking for an OD versus PN Poopfight. And yes I realize that different designs do better/worse depending on seat state. Ultimately I believe that a lot of things we do undercut the "purity" of PN anyway. But, I'm curious to hear thoughts and input. Again, do folks consider sea-state in addition to wind when choosing the wind corrections?

I'm pretty sure the sea state references are just to help you identify what beaufort wind condition you are experiencing. I'm pretty sure things are intended to go based on wind strength only.

I agree with Jake. I think the sea state descriptions are there to give visible cues to identify wind strength.

Are you getting complaints about the some of the ratings?

Does anyone know when the 2007 numbers are going to be released or what the hold up is? I know it is a tough business and am not condeming them - just curious.

WRCRA looks like a great group of sailors that are very active. Kudos to all that keep it running.

yup. Sir Francis Beaufort - 1806...seas state condition descriptions are there to aid weathermen and sailors (who were important to weather research at the time) to identify and record wind strengths with some reliable commonality.

Jake and Tom - that's my belief also, that the sea-state information is included in the beaufort scale info to help you identify the wind range (extra clues as it were). But I was presented with a US Sailing chart detailing it (which I have to admit I haven't studied in detail yet) with wording that may be construed to imply that the sea state was part of the beaufort scale, not just a visual clue.

More question than complaint, but all part of being the score-master. All these things can change what rating is used, and that of course can make the difference where people fall in the ratings. Thus there is always some discussion as to the how and why...

Same wind with less waves gives you more power (more speed, more apparent wind), so you probably don't want to apply a lower scale in this case. Why don't you go and vote the wind conditions after each race? The mean value in knots then can decide your scale. Most sailors are quite good at guessing wind speeds.

Hi Keith,

The Portsmouth numbers are there to make adjustments to the ratings based on the wind speed. Period. The portsmouth numbers have been around much longer than modern, relatively accurate and inexpensive wind speed indicators have been so they reference the Beaufort scale just for the reason you give for using it; that being there is no better way to determine wind speed for you right now.

Here are two suggestions based on your description of the situation: First (and best) is to purchase a good pocket wind speed indicator for getting accurate wind speed readings. These are around a hundred bucks and can provide other info depending on the model you purchase.

Complications: As you point out, the wind can and does vary at different places on the course and you will still have to make a judgement about which wind speed was predominant. You will also have to stop racing to get a true wind reading wherever you want one otherwise you will always be getting the apparent wind which is not what the PNs ask for. This, btw, is also the problem that many sailors face without realizing it when they estimate the wind speed - they forget that they were feeling the apparent wind during the race, not the true wind, and that is why so many sailors give a high estimate to the wind speed after the race. You will still have to average different readings from around the course, if you take them, and/or decide which one was most representative of the race in total.

The second option is to understand that you do not have accurate wind readings and will always just be giving a "best guess" to the wind speed to apply the correct adjustments to the PN numbers. Based on your description of the races, this should suffice, especially if you could get a consensus of the racers at the finish. Perhaps there are some nearby weather data collection ststions that you could agree to use for your wind speed readings. Here on Lake Erie thare are several that could be used depending on where we race.

I hope that is helpful. You can always run the numbers both ways in retrospect and see what kind of differences they make - sort of a sensitivity analysis. When we have done that we have seen that it is usually not a big deal and when you show that to the other racers they may be less concerned about this. But it is always admirable to see someone take their scoring duties seriously, especially the volunteer guy without equipment! So keep up the good work and enjoy the racing!

Mike,
Your response is just about exactly how I feel about the whole thing.

My feeling is that it's always been about the wind, but figured I'd ask to make sure I'm not missing something in ignoring waves. I think we've been fairly accurate and fair about the adjustments we choose, but I will not claim to be infallible.

Between the commodore and myself, we have pretty good experience for judging the wind based on what our boat sees - for instance double trapping usually rules out under 10 knot breezes with 400 pounds of crew weight, etc.

We have some instruments available - but with interesting results. The gauges at Pirate's Cove are aligned to be accurate when the wind funnels out of one of the creeks. But that's a localized effect you don't see on the whole course. If the wind comes from a different direction it reads low because it's blocked. Thomas Point data shows other interesting effects from wind direction and lack of shore effect. Good references all, but not as accurate as what you see where the race is.

The best option is your #2 with one caveat - getting consensus from the racers. I have found this one area where autocratic rule is best, as long as it is trusted and usually accurate, and I do my best to be trusted. Once you start adjusting the adjustments to match somebody's perception of what should be right the whole thing falls apart quickly.

Anyway, it sounds like my original question as to whether anybody uses the sea state for anything other than a visual aid to help decide the wind speed has been answered. The premise that the beaufort scale number used should be lowered if the sea state doesn't match does not seem to fit definitions or practices.

Cheers!

Trusted? YOU?

The few times I have done if for you I used the waves discription as a guide to how much wind there was and I asked one other person for what they thought it was blowing.

I vote for no vote. You do it. And thanks for doing it.

How often is it blowing Beufort 4 average over the fleet's sailing time AND over the entire course.

Beufort 4
11-16 knots
12.1-18.9 mph
Moderate breeze

And as Mike F notes... that is not the apparant wind that people experience sailing...... the Oh... it was more then THAT... should be countered with... did you round up and stop... then note the wind speed... No!...... Next opinion please.

I would think the discussion would be... Did we have 12 to 18 mph for 3/4 of the race for most of the course...

If not... its B 2-3 ....

Drifters are easy to call as well.

Ah, the one person I don't have fooled responded! Foiled again!

Actually, it's a fun thing when it blows 20 from the West and you have virtually no waves in the West River until you get out to the Bay. That would be which adjustment?

Say - you wanna fill in as Portsmouth Czar when my new crew arrives?

yeah! Finally I get to move to the front of the trophy line. Whoops did I just type that?

I can do it the old fashion way, excel, or you can teach me how to use "the program".

I can teach you to "use" the "program". The trick to winning trophies is to be subtle (whilst proclaiming to be trustworthy). I suspect even you can master this aspect when a Roger trophy is on the line! Don't worry about trying to fish for bribes, our Fleet is made up of a bunch of cheap sons of sailors. Best to take the petty offerings of drinks and Hog Wings and tell them afterward they were just too far out to fix (give them hope - "better luck next time" or the like).

All tongue in cheek, of course... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />