This is a great forum. Thanks all.

Can anyone help me with the following?

1. Does the Cobra 5 Qualify for the F16HP class
2. Anyone using them as such or with Spinnakers, if so
where at and how are they performing
3. Are there any F16 events or organization happening in
Queensland {Australia}

Thanks,

Rob
(Brisbane)

The Cobra homepage for the F16 executive is http://stanblaz.customer.netspace.net.au/cobracat.htm

Hello,

My name is Wouter Hijink and I'm the chairman and co-founder of this F16 class. Australia is not my personal responsibility as that is Phill Branders but I can answer some of your questions. By the way ;Thanks Stewart.


>>This is a great forum. Thanks all.

Of course I agree ! Thank you.


>>1. Does the Cobra 5 Qualify for the F16HP class

It looks like it. I've ran a few quick checks and the length, jib area, main area and width all seem to fall withing the limits set. Only problem I see at this time is with weight. In the Cobra Rules not that "ready to sail" weight is given or ruled upon. The mimimum weight ex mast sails and rigging is 77 kg's. Including everything this should come out near 90 Kg or just above that. This is less then the F16 rules allow. Minimum weight for sloop (doublehanded) = 107 kg and for catrigged (singlehanded) = 104 kg's both including a spi of about 5-7 kgs. So the Cobra weight is not far off.

There is also a Cobra 5m quoted on the Texel handicap site. This looks like a new beafed up version with a larger mainsail. specs : Length = 4,97 weight = 87 ; mainsail area + mast = 14,04 jib area = 3,36

Is this the same cobra ?

When I look at the rating I see the Cobra and the Mosquito have respectively 84,5 and 84,0 without a spinnaker. Both the nacra 5.0 and Hobie 16 are not far off at 81. The new ratings of the Mosquito with spi is 80 at this time but expected to drop as this boat has shown to benefit alot from the addition of a spi.

Personally I see a great opportunity here. The Mosquito's are already included in the F16 class by virtue of dispensation and the same can be done to the Cobra's. In South Africa they are trying the get the H16 sailors interested in spinnaker sailing and to invite them to come play with the mozzies in the "baby" F16 class. If succesful this can be done with the nacra 5.0 too. Recently I was contacted by one of the entries in the current ISAF youth cat trails wether their boat can become part of the "baby" F16 class. I gave them the same answer I have given the mosquito sailors in South Africa and that I will give to all and that is :

That every 16 foot sailor is welcome with every design as long as it either complies with ALL the limits in the F16 class and accepts that the first boat over the line wins. Or accept that they will be dispensated for the feature that is in violation with the F16 rules and be subjected to a yearly review. This is to prevent rule beaters from entering the class. Now we all know that a fully optimized F16 in the shape of a Taipan F16 or Stealth F16 is a hard boat to beat by the Mosquito's and Cobra's but I for one am not going to prevent any of these sailors from giving it a try. With enough sailors of performance 80 under VYC I see the potential to have a Baby F16 class parallel to the Normal F16 class (VYC of about 68-70).

The F16 class is open to all High Performance 16 foot designs and sailors. With respect to the cobra we need to determine the precise specs and put the dispensation to the vote.

I am anxious to welcome you.


>>>2. Anyone using them as such or with Spinnakers, if so
where at and how are they performing


I can't answer that question for you. I'm in Europe and we don;t have Cobra's here. I do expect their behaviour to be very similar to that of he mosquito's and they like the addition of the spinnaker very much. It nicely fills up a lack of performance on the downwind leg and they seems to have gotten an enormous performance boost out of it. Even more than the Taipan and others. I would make contact with the Mosquito sailors and or the mosquito sailors in South Africa. Their pages can be found on this forum if you make a search to "mosquito".


>>3. Are there any F16 events or organization happening in
Queensland {Australia}

Not planned as of yet, but we are a volunteer organisation and so I've you have any idea's and want to open it up to other F16 class sailors like Taipans and Mosquito's than you welcome to present them or even implement them.

As of yet we have only a NSW event; the F16 challenge Cup with an perpetual trophy which was given to us by Glenn Ashby.


With kind regards,

Wouter

Wouter,

For you information:

The Cobra and the Mosquito are basically identical boats designed by the same two guys. As I understand it when it came down to whether to use dagger boards or centreboards the designers could not reach an agreement so they went their separate ways - one to the cobra one to the mozzie. The only difference between the two boats is that one has centreboards the other daggerboards. This is my understanding - I may be wrong.

Rob
Taipan 4.9 AUS175.

When that is the case and the class rules of both classes reflect this than I don't see how the Cobra can be denied dispensation for being underweight when the Mosquito has received their dispensation some time back. So Snake charmer ! We need to check up thouroughly on the class rules and make sure they are enforced but excluding any suprises the Cobra is allegable to become part of the F16 structure.

Wouter

Both the Mossie and Cobra are great boats.
I've owned both over the years, and the first boat I ever built was a Cobra.
Basically the Mossie was designed by Neil Fowler and the Cobra designed by Peter Fletcher. For a short time Peter was building Mosquitos.
I believe the Cobra design was based on the Mossie with a few changes. He did things like increase the volume in the bows and moved to stronger beams. The pivoting centreboards were added and with these changes came the inevitable increase in total weight.
So the Cobra actually weighs more than the Mossie.
The Mossie unrigged has a min weight of 55kg while the Cobra unrigged but with centreboards has a min weight of 77kg.

So even when the weight of the boards are taken into account the Cobra will come out the heavier boat. Given the Mossie can compete under the F16 umbrella weight would not be an issue for the Cobra. I would expect that a rigged Cobra would weigh at least as much as a rigged Taipan.
It would be great to see these boats active in the F16 divison in Australia.

On the issue of the NSW F16 Challenge.
Andrew Williams has until Feb 22 to announce the date and venue of the F16 Challenge and that date must be prior to May 22. I expect there may be 4 or more boats from my club interested in participating in the event and the Cobras and Mosquitos would be most welcome.

Regards,
Phill Brander
Australian F16 Representative

Phil,

Thanks for setting the record straight on the difference between the Cobra and the Mozzie. I was misinformed somewhere along the line.

Rob.

If a mossie is a 55Kg platform and a Cobra is a 77kg.. These classes are what 20, 25, 30 years old.. Its interesting how comparitively heavy the F16 is..
Just makes ya wonder..

Stewart,

That is 55 kg and 77 kg platform weight that is without mast, sails, boom, blocks and spi gear (these things add a few kg). In case of the Cobra a quick add-up results in 77 kg + 14 kg mast + 7 kg main + 1 kg mainblocks + 1 kg jib + 0,5 kg jib blocks + 1.25 kg boom + 1.5 rigging + something = 95,25 + something kg = say 96 kg minimum ready to sail no spi . F16's in double handed mode are 100-102 kg without spi gear. F16 are noticably higher loaded and wider as well both tend to make a craft heavier in beams and hull layup.

I never understood why certain classes only quote platform weight. I once had a big argument with a 49-er sailor who thought that my (then under construction) boat was ludicrously heavy as his was "only 80 kg". I explained to him that a 49-er ready to sail (including mast and sail etc) was 110 kg's or 110 kg's and therefor heavier; and that it killed the 49-er on the water as well. He then said that I was a typical cat sailor who never had sailed a real boat like the 49-er. I then notified him that I had sailed over a 100 hours on the the following line of skiffs in the past 3 years : laser 2000, laser 3000 laser 4000, laser 5000. RS 800, 49-er. That shut him up.

That is the danger with quoting only platform weights; it can land you in a heated debate with my persona ! (Joke)


Wouter

In all honest both the builders and class know that the F16's can be build lighter than the current minimum weight.

I'm sure we can get it down by some 6 - 10 kg's ; lest say below 100 kg while still flying a spi of 17 square mtr. and having two blokes on the wire. If we really wanted to and put in some dough into it we could use some more exotic materials for the hulls and get the craft as low as 90-95 kg's and that will be about it. Even the builders said they could do it.

But here comes the trick; the question is not "can we get it down there ?" but "do we want to get it down there"

In past you were part of the discussions about this in the class and indeed you were personally very much in favour of going as low as possible. I must say that I personally saw the attractions of it. But the class as a whole and the builders in particular didn't see much use in it. It would make the craft relatively expensive. Example : The A-cats are here now almost as expensive as fully fitted F18's and these are already some 10-15 % more expensive then the F16's and some 25 % more expensive than Hobie 16's and Dart 18's.

There is always a balance between performance (weight) and cost and simply put we, we couldn't get the class started if we went under 100 kg's without a spi. So what was the class to do. Throw away the exiting promise of this class because we couldn't get those last 5 kg's ?

No, I think that the class as a whole did exactly the right thing. Did we bow out to anyone ? AHPC had to accept the inclusion of carbon masts, Taipan sailors the increase in width and general openess of the rules, Stealth had to shave a few kg's of their Stealth R platform to get to minimum weight and Bimare had to cut down on mast length. 3 parties choose to rejoys over their wins and learn to live with thier losses, one went his own way. 3 out of 4 seems like a very good score to me.

End result is still the lightest doublehanded (spinnaker) boat and that has the overall performance that is on a level with the F18 class and A-cats AND that is also very affordable if not noticably less expensive than all of its competitors (A-cats, F18's, FX, I-17R, F20's, M20)

And so we accept our loss in WOW factor (less weight) and rejoyce over over gains. We change the new from F16 High Tech to F16 High Performance at the same time. Now we just call it F16.

Wouter

Mate wasnt suggesting we decrease the weight. but was noting in relative terms how "stable" the weight of boats has been down under at least.
I know you northerners are still catching up with low weigh... Given another couple of decades it will happen..

*takes tongue out of cheek and hides under the table*

Just to clarify the facts about the Mozzies platform weight. It wasn't always 55kg. It used to be a minumum of 65kg, and this was dropped to 55kg in the early 90s when foam, kevlar and carbon became available.
It sounds like this was a painful decision for the class as it meant there had to be heavyweight results for the old boats from then on, but even 10 years ago Jim Boyer was building platforms which needed 4kg or more of lead to bring them up to 55kg. These were well built, stiff boats that are still sailing today. There doesn't seem to be any need to build them heavier.

Someone mentioned about the fullness of the Cobra hulls as well, so I should mention that the Mozzie hulls built since the mid 90s are more buoyant than the earlier versions. This is better for sloop crews and they do tack a lot easier.

I guess one reason to specify platform weight is to ensure a certain amount of material goes into the hulls. If an overall weight is specified then someone could build super-light hulls so they can festoon the boat with equipment and still be down to minimum weight. With a platform weight specified, there is a weight advantage to having a "lean and clean" setup - makes for nicer looking boats I reckon!

Tim

I know you weren't; seriously.

With respect to Northerners; ALL builders except Bimare wanted to make the minimum weight higher. I must add to this that Bimare wasn't into the jib and extra width (to the current 2.5 mtr) so ... Anyways; apparently not only northerners were to be persuade to get down to the current minimum ready to sail weight.

In practice the rules allow a platform of 100 kg's without spi and jib. which typically leads to 105 kg catrigged with kite; 102 kg's in sloop no kite setup and 107 kg's with everything.

There were proposals to make this 115 kg or 120 kg all up. "At least 110 kg's" was expressed. With the mood in the class that at least carbon masts should be allowed and that the Taipan crews shouldn't be forced to carry weight we got it down again to 107 kg overall and that is where the flexibility stopped.

Still I expect some builders to build underweight boats in the year to come and when the F16 class grows and the race becomes more competative. AHPC has always done this to me knowlegde, they still do it with A-cats to make sure they weight in at exactly 75 kg's even after a few years have past and water gets into the fibreglass.

That is how it happened. I know this is not a direct answer to your posts but as the sensitivity of these issues is beginning to fade I think this history is of interest to the class.

Just some general interest comments ;

Wouter

Hullo again,

Thanks for the info folks.

Regarding Cobra weight;
From contact with 2 long term Cobra sailors and current Association members I had suggestions on both counts of "around 100kgs" ready to sail. Neither had actually weighed one.

Like the Mossies that Tim mentioned the early Cobras were heavier than the current 77 kgs allowed for by a rule change some years ago. Originally the platform was 80 kgs.
Mast is apparently approx 8 metres and main sail area 129sq feet. Beam at extremities around 2.1m, just a little under the Mosquito width.

There has only been the one design and I'm told the only significant changes within that have been the platform weight and the allowing of Mylar sails. The rules on the Cobra site don't appear to have caught up with the latter change and some other minor variations that were mentioned.
From the half dozen Cobra contacts I've made I've heard there are a few experimenting with Spinnakers and a couple thinking about it, though its likely to remain outside the class rules. At this point they appear to be independent endeavours at not for the purpose of F16 engagement. Well, it seems to be taking off with the Mossies since the ball started rolling!

I've been to the F16 site, well done team F16, and soaked up what info I could regarding rules but havent digested it all yet.

Wouter and/or Phill;
1. Is there a formal decision required to establish beyond doubt if the Cobra qualifies, if so, who by? and how/when does it get to happen?

2. What then is the full list of cats accepted for the class?

3. At a F16 event, how does it work with the 'open class' and the fully compliant boats. Is this 2 results within the one race ?


Regards and thanks,

Rob

Rob,

Take a look at this post with the drawing of the F16 rules; it may well help you understand the rules. A picture is more powerfull than a 1000 words Ehh ? (click on attachment ; right under the header of the post)

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...2920&page=&view=&sb=5&o=

The newer version of this is suppost to be placed on the website next week; but is has had this status for some 8 weeks now. I think I need to get my behind into gear and do it.

Maybe you can go directly to the pic by clicking this link :

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/22920-F16_rules_sketch.jpg

If your boat conforms to all these rules than your boat satisfies the limits set by the F16 class. Official recognision is achieved by having the design checked by your local F16 class representative for safety and compliance with the spirit of the rule (protection against rule beaters). This last issue should not pose any problems.

A class vote to allow a design in is only required when one or more specs break the F16 rules; In this case maybe the minimum weight will give rise to this but that we will only know after weighting a relatively new platform. MInd you the rules allow up to 7 kg's of corrector weights to be carried. So when your boat is say 102 kg's sloop rigged with spi (likely) than carrying some corrector weight avoid the need for a class vote. However in this case I advice to go for the class vote and get dispensation for being underweight. Your smaller mast and sailarea's which limit performance more than your light weight can correct out over should be sufficient to land the official status. Mosquito's have gone the road before you.

With respect to Mozzies and Cobra playing with spinnaker. I think it would be smart to combine these two in a formula class; both your numbers are relatively small and together you both have more fun and a better chance at keeping the design alive in the future. With a little luck the ISAF youth class decides on a design that is extremely close to your Mosquito's and Cobra's. This is likely when looking at the provisional handicap ratings of the entered boats. This may of course be an individual formula class of your own but when you choose to use the F16 setup and organisation then will make us all yet again stronger and more capable to promote fast 16 footers in the world as a whole. Like I said before I see eventually the Prindle 16 and Hobie 16 with spi join too. Maybe even the Dart 18's although I'm told these boats don't take the spi that well. All of these classes will either die out or loose alot of sailors top the newer spinnaker boats. This will be a pitty. All of these boats are extremely similar in overall performance and could easily race first in wins against one another. Seriously 1 or 2 handicap points difference between these boats is nothing.

It would also be best to settle together on one spinnaker size and for that a central organisation is practical. It seems like 14-15 sq. mtr. is the right kite for these boats and the draw height their masts can accomodate.

In this setup I see potential in the area's of South Africa, Australia and also Europe and USA. The latter having huge fleets of old secondhand H16 and P16; Europe as a good sized Dart 18 fleet as well as does South Africa. This is an important breeding group of new sailors. We start sailing cats on one of these older secondhand platforms and this is where the new breed of racers will come from. Any class would do well to remind itself of this very important fact.

These are my views on the subject. We would welcome you in but you shouldn't feel pressured to do so. Spirit of the F16 rules right ! Everbody is welcome and we will cooperate with every other catsailor who wishes to do so to advance us both.

In this respect, I haven't been able make much headway in this but we're looking to extend the same hand towards the I-17 and FX-one sailors. Again it is more fun for us all and it only those few handicap point between us is nothing when compared to the generally huge difference in sailor skills. The best sailor/crew will come in first anyway.

Answering your questions :


1. Is there a formal decision required to establish beyond doubt if the Cobra qualifies, if so, who by? and how/when does it get to happen?

Yes, depending on full compliance or not is maybe be done by your local representative (Phillip Brander) or done by a class vote. This is a formality preventing every builder "using" the F16 name as well as an extra check on design specs and safety. The vote is required when one of the specs is non compliant with the F16 class rules. To prepare for this vote a temporary dispensation reviewed yearly) dispensation can be given by your local representative. Or you could invoke the grandfather rule and get the same dispensation from your local representative.

Summary : Introduction and grandfather dispensation can be handled by your local representative on your request. "Qualification beyond a doubt" I take that as "full compliancy status" can only be achieved by having your boat measured and found to be in compliance with all of the F16 rules. This will give you a measurement certificate which will garantee your participation as F16 in all events. Again your local representative can do this on you request. Dispensation for non-compliance must be accepted by the class as a whole in a vote and your local representative can help you in preparation for this.


>>2. What then is the full list of cats accepted for the class?


Fully optimized F16's (no restrictions on participation)

Taipan 4.9 + spi (Foundation boat)
Taipan F16 (as supplied by AHPC with wider beam, different rear beam, F16 sails, different jib)
Stealth F16
Stealth R (Foundation boat)

+ several one-off (Bob Hall's, Michael Coffman's, Harry Slump, Stewart's, Mine)

+ Blade F16 (Pending; measurements of prototype still have to be performed)


Dispensated :

Spitfire (dispensated for 18 sq. mtr. spi)
Cirrus Energy (dispensated for 18 sq.mrt. spi)
Mosquito spi (dispensated for underweight)


Grandfathered :

Bim 16 and Bim Javelin 16 (on officially fixed specs of respectively jan 2001 and nov 2002)
Nacra Inter 17 (intentionally included when writing the grandfather rule)
Hobie FX-one (intentionally included when writing the grandfather rule)


>>>3. At a F16 event, how does it work with the 'open class' and the fully compliant boats. Is this 2 results within the one race ?

Mostly the rules concerning the Fully compliant and open classes are written to have a handle to protect ourselfs from any design making use of the open dispensation and grandfather rules to exploit any loophole to the more strict F16 box rule. In extreme cases a group of organisers may want to limit the participation in major events to only fully compliant designs for to prevent abuse or because allowing others in would nullify the purpose. An example of the last is the following project :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/Dutch_coast_challenge_2004.html

This is going to be a promotional tour of F16's in Europe (in concept stages at this time) and allowing Hobie and Inter designs in would nullify the promotional effect.

With these footnotes I can assure sailors of dispensated and grandfathered boats that the Spirit of the class is layed down to be as open as possible. In addition to my role as chairman I'm also the local representative of the Dutch, Belgium and German scene. I this last role I WILL NOT EXCLUDE any of the grandfathered of dispensated boat from any F16 event except the promo tour. Nor from any future Open Dutch Nationals. It is my full intention to hold all events as "open" where by the local national champ will be the highest placed local sailor. So in this situation, Open and Closed class designs will share the same course, start fleet, and final result listing on elapsed times. Solo and doublehanded setups will also share the course, start fleet and final listing.

Only rule to keep the racing and the times under control will be the use of the following rule :

The finishing window will be as follows :

15 minutes after first finisher < finish window < (Elapsed time first finisher * 1,30) + 5 minutes

Examples :

First finisher comes in at 25 minutes. Finish window is then 25 minutes to 40 minutes = (25+15) since the start. = 15 minutes open, the minimum.

First finisher comes in at 50 minutes. Finish window is then 50 min to 50*1.3+5 = 70 minutes since the start = 20 minutes open.

First finisher comes in after 2 hours 3 minutes . Finish is then 123 min to 123*1.3+5 = 164.9 = 165 min. = 42 minutes open

Anybody who arrives after this time or abandons the race gets the number of points of the last finisher + 2

In this setup I don't care wether a Hand Primowees enters himself on a Prindle 15 as long as his boat is checked for F16 compliance, he accepts to race on elapsed time and finishes in the finish window or abandons the course to allow the second start to commence. This Hans guy actually beats over halve the fleet of much faster boats each year at the Texel race on elapsed time. Even a-cats typically only finish some 15-20 minutes of him after over 3 hours of sailing. He is that good on that boat and he can probably beat us all on elapsed even when we sail F16's.

Sparring against him makes us faster and gives him a real challenge that he is looking for. Why should we disallow him because he is not sailing the latest F16 model ?

With Steve in South Africa I discussed the possibilty to make the participants more equal in bigger events like World Cups. The general idea is that the national champions of each area is invited to participate on a charter boat while the other need to bring their own boats. For our baby F16's the idea is to have wild cards for them which they can earn by achieving a certain result less then become local F16 champion. When this happens the class and builders will issue a wildcard to these teams and arrange preference to fully optimized charter boats for these crews. Both Stealth and AHPC have indicated in the past their willingness to help in such charter schemes.

Baby F16's are the boats with a Texel handicap higher then 112. Mosquito spi, Cobra Spi, H16 spi, Prindle 16 Spi, Dart 18 spi and ISAF youth boat to be. Crews with boats with a handicap of less than 112 will have to become local champion on elasped time results.

As a baby F16 you can become local champion as well and not invoke the wildcard rule. Personally I wouldn't never underestimate the Singlehanded mosquito with spi.


The red thread in all this that we all want to have fun, have as many competitors on the water as we can, make the (monetray) threshold to wannabee racers as low as possible and want to exchange idea's regarding spinnaker sailing. Together is better then seperated.

WOuter

It`s great to see that the F16 class has attracted a fair amount of interest from the smaller, existing 16ft classes that would like to keep up with the pace of more modern designs, even if they are 30 year old designs. It`s also great to see that the class itself is open to accepting their inclusion, even in some cases where they don`t comply fully with the rules. I think the approach has been to create a level-rating open class, rather than a strictly controlled class, which quickly turns back into one-design.
Looking at the weight of the South African Mosquito`s, we measured our boats at our recent Nationals & found the lightest Spinnaker equipped boat at 107kg (mine!), ranging to about 112kg. For interest sake my platform is 58kg, 3kg over min. weight. Obviously we are all sloop with extra weight of jib & blocks etc. The Australian Mozzies seem lighter overall, perhaps they have fewer fittings & lighter beams (we use a larger beam section). I think they are more obsessed with min. weight than we are, although we`re getting there. I think 95kg is possible if you strip the boat down to bare essentials and have carbon rudders & boards.
The min. weight of the F16 class is a good thing, as it allows a timber boat to be competitive, so exotic materials are optional, rather than necessary - well done to Wouter & the rest for keeping it this way.
As a matter of interest to the Australian Mozzie & Cobra sailors : We have had a large increase in numbers of spinnakers ordered based on the success of our Nationals, where the 6 spinnaker boats showed off their speed, we have 14 spinnaker boats at our next regatta ! To the Cobra sailors : I suggest talking to Tim (Mozzie) about standardising the spinnaker kits across both boats, it will make ordering spinnakers easier, and they have had a lot of design input from us, where all the learning curves have been made. In this way you will grow the class as quickly as we have here.

Cheers
Steve