Interesting, when did that change? I thought it was a cute manipulation of the rules but somehow "wrong"

It's rule 20.3.

20.3 A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not.

And all this time I just figured a boat unable to make headway (or in irons) was considered an obstruction and you had to get out of the way...

Still, I'd rather take a penalty than crunch epoxy to prove my point... I believe the first rule is that all sailors should avoid collisions

The key phrase there is "by backing a sail." If you can back up without backing a sail, as can be done with a lot of boats, you still have rights over the boats behind you, because they are still considered overtaking boats.

Am I wrong? I can back up my boat forever with the sail just loose and weathervaning.

Yes.

The "overtaking boat keeps clear rule" was binned ages ago

Once there is an overlap "normal rules apply" - however, there needs to be room and oppertunity to keep clear so how long you would beed to be given to slow down, stop and then reverse could make an interesting discussion - you do not have to predict a Right of way boats action, only avoid it - so the "over the line, slam the breaks on and reverse back" method would be (IMO) dodgy to say the least.

In collegiate racing, if you are backing up, you gonna get your a$% ran over. It is not legit to back up on the line because you can't head anyone down. Even if another boat is cruising down the line, you still don't have any rights on them.

Competitors, Resentment and Rules!

Stuart discussed the Failure to manage the game:

This thread generated a hell of a list that supports his point that failures to manage the game properly will generate resentment that WILL have to be dealt with or you risk loosing competitors.

For example,
I (MS) argue that Rules that YOU don’t understand or bother to learn WILL generate resentment in your competitors!

For example, Would you play baseball with someone who never bothered to learn the rules of the game and circles the bases third to first? What’s different about sailing?

How about, Do you or don’t you fly a flag when someone breaks the rules?

How about this frequent Skippers meeting instruction, “Settle it on the water cause the Protest meeting is next Tuesday at 11 PM in Timbuktwo”!

How about this question... Can you or can you not back up into someone?

(Since the rule was changed in 2000... Don't you think that competitors who do stay current with the rules would resent someone who simply won't learn the rules of the game they play... even after 5 years?) If the back up rule is obscure just think about your opinion of people screaming at you when THEY are barging! I certainly resent it!

Do you retire when you infringe the rules and come out ahead? If not... you WILL generate a great deal of resentment.

Do you think you generate resentment when you fail to play by the rule where you are expected to police yourself and penalize yourself for what turns out to be an unfair advantage?

How about a round of bumper boats...

Mind you... the ISAF has been on a 10 year binge to simplify the rules to be as clear and common sensical as possible and they change them slightly every 4.

Is the competition about gaming your opponent, trash talking, cheating or getting away with stuff that the judge didn't see?.... (That would generate a lot of resentment in my world.) (Junior program directors deal with this crap all of the time.... A Connecticut Club had to build a PR campaign with posters to encourage kids to race honorably)

How about the requirement to write adequate Sailing Instructions... Note the hell to pay over the F18 Sailing Instructions and Wind strength ... I sensed a LOT of resentment on that one and it caused me to modify all of MY Sailing Instructions.

How about the RC starting a race on the time schedule they published... announced and kept despite the laggards who are screwing around on the beach... AND THEN THE BOZO'S COME AND BITCH ABOUT THE RACE COMMITTEE TO ME AND THEN TO THE RC! (Had this one at this years Alter qualifier)

How about the Equipment Rules where days must be spent certifying equipment... If you don't do it, or overlook the need to establish a set of operative rules crap happens. ... The winner may ALWAYS be resented for skirting the rules. (see the BS over a previous Hobie Wave championship and the use of Hobie 16 stiff rudder blades)

See the Tornado Class and the mandate to Solve their mast issue or loose Olympic status... Cause people were operating just on this side of the rule but certainly not in the spirit of the competition.

So I agree with Stuarts point about the need to manage the competition to minimize resentment. I believe that these things matter to you as a competitor because you want a level playing field to compete on and you RESENT IT when they are screwed up, ignored, or minimized.

Now... If we you are about the buisness of running a sailing club... these rules issues about the game are of little relevance because at the heart of your club involves social behavior... and not competitive behavior.

Probably the only rule that applys is don't spill the beer!

Mark

Caleb wrote
Having spent some time as the Last place boat, I can relate to this situation. As our fleets grow, and new people take part, it is important to encourage the new sailors to move up from the last place. One way we have done this is to bring back the B Fleet.

Stuarts point is that the B fleet undermines the competition….Why would you bother with a half assed competition. Competition is about determining excellence… why would you split the 20 boats into A and B fleet and then give trophies to 1 to 3 and then give trophies to 11 to 12. The better way to do this is personal handicaps. The advantage is that there is NO PRETENSE involved… In a 20 boat race… you finished 10th or you won the race. To redefine that as first in B fleet simply cheapens the competition and devalues the prize. However… you may have out sailed your previous performance and you should be recognized for this by a win in the Personal handicap game. A totally different kind of competition. Both prizes then are valuable. ( I think the Hobie and Prindle glory days when you had 200 boats at a regatta divided into A, B and C based on experience is substantially different)

“The other is for the top sailors to help the new sailors with their set up and sailing techniques. “

But this situation is simply not a competition…The experienced sailor is NOT competing with someone new to the sport. Rather, he is acting as a mentor, coach, friend, colleague…. Not a competitor.


“Recognition is also important for the new sailors, when they do have a good race, or move up in the fleet.”

Stuart would disagree. He would argue that you have NO Evidence that the last place boat is upset with being last… He could argue that in fact… this last place sailor may simply be interested in the social aspects of a regatta, a chance to go sailing with a group. They simply enjoy the company of other sailors and go racing for ****s and giggles…. They are NOT motiviated by competition. Winning is not something they have put at stake here…. Last place is not a thorn in their side.

His point would be that 1) you need to Ask this sailor if they are OK. He would say that you must recognize that it’s the GROUP dynamics and the desire to participate with the group that MUST be nurtured more then the position in the pecking order. If you see this last place sailor out practicing, asking for input, working with a coach… THEN you have evidence that Last Place is NO GOOD for THEM!

Recognition is critical for this last place boat for their importance to the group. You don’t want to trivialize recognition within the competition… It’s a good thing to recognize a good performance of a competitor but he would say that Personal Handicaps are the best way to do this reliably without undermining the competition.

Take Care
Mark

No Mary, you are not wrong. If you are moving astern WITHOUT backwinding a sail, you maintain your rights. Watch match racing starts(yes, I know match racing rules are different, but not in this case) and sooner or later, you'll see what's called the "dial-up", where both boats go head-to-wind and often start drifting backwards. Just because they're going backwards doesn't mean they lose their rights - the leeward boat remains leeward boat and the windward boat has to keep clear. In one of the recent Americas Cup races, the boats were actually sailing backwards side-by-side at over 6 knots. That was faster than the umpire boat could motor backwards. It had to turn around in order to keep out of their way.

Regards,
Eric

Mary,
I hope you'll forgive me, but I believe you are mistaken. You don't break any rule by not protesting and you cannot be penalized just because you didn't.

I suspect this notion is an outgrowth of the old exoneration rule. That is, if you are compelled to break a rule because of the illegal actions of another boat, you are exonerated. It used to be that you had to protest the other boat and win in order to be exonerated. If you didn't, then a third boat could protest you for the rule you broke.

For example, if you were entitled to room at a mark, but the other boat didn't give you enough, and you touched the mark as a result, you would have to either take a 360 degree turn or protest the other boat and win in order to be exonerated. If you just sailed on, then a third-party who witnessed you hit the mark could protest you and you'd wind up disqualified.

That requirement, however, went away in the 2001-2004 rules. You no longer have to win a protest to be exonerated. In the above example, the protest committee would hear the facts and (based on their judgement) exonerate you. They also could (and should) protest the first boat, make her a party to the protest, and possibly disqualify her.

On the flip-side, just because the other boat didn't protest doesn't mean you didn't break a rule. When I break a rule, I am honor-bound to take a penalty (or retire), whether or not the other boat protests.

Getting back to the original topic, in the fleets that I race, I don't personally see much resentment based on different skippers' skill levels. Yes, some are better than others but we're all out there to have fun. I sense more resentment between people who interpret rules differently - and often honestly so. It's not always the rule-breakers vs. the sea-lawyers.

Regards,
Eric

The definition of "Clear Astern" is:

I would consider a rudder in the water to be "equipment in normal position. Therefore, if the other boat's bow was overlapped with your rudder(s), you were overlapped. If the other boat's spinnaker and spinnaker pole were in "normal position", they would count for overlap as well.



Well, that doesn't sound like any advantage at all, let alone a significant one, lol. Truth be told, there aren't many circumstances where you can break a rule, do your turns, and come out significantly ahead.



Sounds like a protestable situation to me. Most club racers won't protest start-line infractions though. I suspect they simply don't want to cause resentment by asserting their rights.

Regards,
Eric

Wow, lots to cover. I believe Mary is correct. If someone fouls you and you don't call him because he's your buddy, you both can be protested by someone else. This protects the fleet.
I personally think B Fleets are very important. In our area it's very difficult in A Fleet and most of the top sailors have 20 years racing experience. Having a newbie come into the jungle just scares them away. We have fleet races every week where everyone sails together and then discuss what happened over beer at the end of the day. When the B fleet sailors go to a regatta they have a chance at a trophy. I think this is very important to motivate them to stick around. I have never met anyone that was happy with last place. There are guys happy to stay in B fleet, but not always be last.

With respect to the "B" fleet thoughts, I wouldn't want to sail B fleet, even if I was new. I'd rather take my licks and know where I stood in the overall picture so I could find someone at a higher level and learn from them how to get better.

Perhaps a "B" fleet is necessary in a high-stakes regatta with lots of boats, where me as a newbie could really screw things up. Like if I flipped over at the starting line in front of everyone (because I was over early). Or if I dragged a mark just before the rock stars lapped me on a course 7.

Then again, maybe that's just something the rock-stars should have to deal with... loose cannons like me adding another layer of tactical challenges to overcome. That's why they're rock-stars, right?

Sorry to further derail the thread ... but I would like to pose a second possibility in this scenario. Suppose three spinnaker boats were sailing downwind at a common catamaran gybing angle (45 degrees or so) all three on starboard not overlapped but each one slightly inside of the other and about a boat length behind. The lead boat gybes onto port with no warning and the second boat crash gybes with the upper half of his crew dangling upside down in the water. The third boat had no room to gybe so headed up sharply resulting in a capsize (mast very nearly missed the second boat's hull). It is my understanding that the third boat can only protest the second boat and although the second boat took the only option available to him, would be found at fault UNLESS he protested the first boat.

I was the third boat and although I did protest the second boat, I realized that he didn't protest the first boat and I choose not to follow through in the room because I wouldn't be able to get to the person that started the calamity. The second boat and myself did have a lengthy friendly discussion afterwards though.

It is important to protest if you have been fouled.

Well, if that's true, Eric, I've probably been overlapped in other cases and inadvertantly fouled someone. I had (previous to this discussion) presumed the bow created the overlap, not the spin pole/snuffer (which sticks out another 3 feet or so, up to what seems like 10 feet on some N6.0 and ARC 20s with those Godzilla spinnakers)

I have picked the earwax out of other skipper's heads with my spin pole, too. If memory serves, I think a 6.0 or N20 sailor got his spin pole bridle caught on the boom of the boat in front of him..

Seems those pesky snuffers can cause trouble on a crowded line when the 'early' guy throws his boat into "Park".

I've been here and pretty frustrated too ... someone running down the line spins up and parks in front of a crowded line of boats that are moving. Remember that that parking person has to allow the boat behind him time and opportunity to avoid him...he can't just spin up willy nilly swinging their sterns under your spin pole and expect to be in the right.

jake, wouldn't that be barging anyway?

Rule 60.1(a) says: so you may protest any boat that breaks a right-of-way rule on the water as long as you were involved, or witnessed it.

Rule 60.3(a)2 says: so even if you didn't protest the first boat, the protest committe could (and should) bring all boats involved into the hearing.

Rule 63.6 says: so the protest committee should determine everything that happened between all the boats involved.

Rule 64.1(a) says: so the protest committee should determine all the rules that were broken by any/all the boats involved and penalize them accordingly. Note that only "parties" can be penalized, so it's important that the protestor or protest committee protest everyone who might have broken a rule. It is certainly possible that everyone involved could be penalized.

Rule 64.1(b) says: so if you are forced to break a rule because someone else broke a rule, then you won't be penalized.

Therefore, in the scenerio mentioned, calling the boats L(eeward), M(iddle), and W(indward): W gybed onto port tack, forcing M to take avoiding action (crash gybe) - and broke rule 10 (On Opposite Tacks). M (now on port tack) forced L to take avoiding action (heading up) - and also broke rule 10. Because M was compelled to break rule 10 as a result of W's illegal action, however, she is exonerated.

Now, if W sailed on, the protest committee must disqualify her. If W did a penalty turn(s), then the PC needs to determine if she caused injury, significant damage, or gained a significant advantage. The scenerio didn't mention injury or damage, but given that L capsized and was probably left far behind, she most likely gained a significant advantage. If so, then her penalty shall be to retire.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Waterbug: We often sail A & B fleets together at smaller events, and yes the A fleet guys have to watch out for some of the new B fleet guys. Usually at the start when they can't hold thier boat still or are barging at the last minute. There are also many quality B fleet guys that turn into good A fleet sailors. If you want to race in A fleet then simply beat the B fleet guys and earn your way in. I think you would learn more in close races with the quality B fleeters then getting smoked in A fleet. Even in A fleet there is A- , A and A+.

If there's a rule that says you must protest then I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me the number. I'm always learning new things about the rules. Until then, however, I'll continue to say you can't protest someone for not protesting someone.

Now, it's conceivable you could say that someone broke rule 2 (Fair Sailing) because he favored his buddy, but that would be hard to demonstrate. Besides, if you witnessed the infraction, you can always protest his buddy yourself.

Regards,
Eric