Sorry if I ask a dumb question, but how does that central pod make the boat stiffer?
Wouldnt a regular dolphin-striker be cheaper, lighter, and easier when assembling?

You guys are mistaken scepsis with being a vinegar pisser.

Development and science are much helped by scepsis; of course as long as it doesn't become the dominant factor.

I'm sceptical about this design. The centre pod idea is nice but already tried and proven by those cats on like Geneva. The poleless spinnaker tack support (by a pair of bridles) isn't new either, the Swell Shadow for example has proven this setup to work. All carbon is nothing new either, see my earlier listing. The remainder of the rig is very standard, so too the hull shape and Marstrom rudders and rudderstocks for example. The platform is still two hulls, two beams and a trampoline.

So basically, what exactly is being developped here that hasn't already been succesfully developped by others ? One could almost say that they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

I respect the fact that a group of builders are going through the trouble of creating a new boat, but that in itself does not equal development.

Additionally, the boat is made larger then most other cats and therefor is very likely to be faster then the others. You don't need to be a top boat designer to figure this out. As such I'm personally not yet impressed by this design.

Alot more interesting would have been to use the same specs as the Tornado and then design it such that it beats the Tornado by a significant margin. Then we all as catamaran enthousiasts can learn something. Learn what new design features improve performance. Right now we can learn nothing because this boat is pretty much alone in its specs.

I will admit to feeling that the designers took the easy route to a line honours winner, by placing the specs well out of the way of other dominant cat designs. As such I fear they can only loose and never win. Afterall, if this design wins then HEY, it is a larger and lighter design, what will anybody expect ? But when it looses then everybody will be all over it.

No, it would have been alot more interesting when they used these idea's under a rule framework like the F18's or the specs of the Tornado design.

So again I'm being sceptical. The difference to being a downer is of course that I can argue my stance as I have done above.

Wouter

Most of the rig forces will be transmitted along this centre pod. So basically the are no bridles or forestay to flex the hulls.

However, there will be no difference in flexing due to "walking the waves". As such the stiffness difference could be very marginal. Afterall the rig loads to tend to behave as a static pretensioned spring setup. As such they do not alter the stiffness of platform, they just reposition the flexing situation to a different operating point.

Example:

Hang a weight on a spring and measure its stiffness. This can also be done by measuring the oscillation frequency as that is proportional will the stiffness of the whole system.

No reposition this system to the horizontal plane so the force of gravity is taken out of the equation. Measure the stiffness again (frequency) you will find that they are the same.

Basically, adding a static force to a spring setup will not alter the stiffness of the system, it will only change the position of the weight and thus the average position of the weight when it oscillates.


Your other points are of course quite to the point. 3 and 4 mm wires and a dolphinstriker setup tend to be the lightest and cheapest solution most often. That is why dolphinstrikerless setups and unstayed or partically stayed rig have never really gotten into fashion.

The extra material needed in the hulls to take the bridle loads also doubles up as extra material to make the hulls and platform stiffer.

The conventional beach cat design is pretty well developped. Both in weight, stiffness and costs (cheap).

Wouter

Wouter,

Regarding this comment:



And then this boat would be directly against the Tornado; would you invest your money in trying to overthrow the Tonado. Mastrom has tried with the M20 and has not made much progress.

The Olympic teams will be sailing the Tornado and then the F18 for the fleet sizes. I'd wager that this boat is aimed at people who want to go faster than a Tornado (hopefully) but with less skill.

Yes, I'd agree it's nothing really new, but it may have a market and it looks like it should be fun.

Wouter

But doesn't it depend to a certain extent on what the boat was designed for? If you talk to the guy behind the project I think his main reasons were a)have a boat that big guys can sail without being penalised for being big (sorry but F20 just aren't competitive on handicap IMO) and b) a line honours machine. That the boat looks fantastic is a bonus.

When you consider that it has only had two outings, 1 at the Fast boat race where it was right up with the VX40 until the helm pitchpoled it flat out on the shallows (and no Wouter, it didn't break) and then the LNM race where the mast broke when again it was right at the front.

Last I knew no development had happened on the foils as this is a small team project who all have day jobs and it's one thing at a time, expect more to follow. And as regards questioning the designer !!!!! No, the RS600 may not be a Cat but it is one of the most popular boats in a comptitive field and had remained so since it's inception. Most cat classes would be envious of the RS600 regatta turnouts. I would think it safe to say that Clive Everest knows his stuff. I would add the same kind of comments for the sailmaker as well.

Big up to Jim M for putting the money in to support his idea and hopefully he'll take me out on it next time I'm down at Weston.

Indeed it does.





The ills of the F20 have surprisingly little to do with crew weight. Interestingly enough these very same heavy crews are just as fast on a F18 as they were on their F20. The basic F20 design is the problem. By far most of us know the F20 only by the Nacra 20. And this design has not seen much development at all over the years, while other designs like the F18 did.

For better installments to the F20 rule look for the White formula 20 (John the Vries special) and the Eagle 20 cats. But even then the F20 class specs are limiting the performance more then the crews weights. Modern F18's take large crew weights quite well.

For a line honours boat, yes indeed, they are on track.
I would have respected it more if it became a line honours boat through clever designing rather then brute force (larger boat) but those are just my personal feelings.




Okay.

I had figured as much, by the way. Hardly any beach cat is designed by a dedicated team. As good as all new developments have come from small private projects. That includes the Capricorn you are sailing. Basically Martin Fisher did the design and AHPC modified is at little bit here and there and took it into production. Most French F18 designs are 1 or 2 person jobs. A-cats and F16's same thing. Pretty much we are all doing it this way, so the Tek-Cat is nothing special in this sense either.




In the UK yeah, in the rest of the world it is "just another" dinghy with a microscopic following. In the netherlands (next to the UK) there is not even a RS600 class with races. You can't compare the RS600 and Clive to say Eigner and his Flyer A-cat. The latter broke through internationally and you can find fleets of his design on all continents, with other designers copying him. With the first named person you can't. With respect to innovative design he is no Rohan Veal or Bethwaite either. That is just the truth of the situation.




I never said Clive is an ignoramous, just that his history doesn't necessarily garantee a succesful cat design to come off his drawing board. With respect to RS600, it is totally non-existant in Australia, USA, NZL and it is still a very small class in continental Europe. And the RS600 is nothing like a line honours catamaran. Sorry all this is just too far fetched.

But indeed there has been enough scepsis on the design now, so I will butt out now.

Wouter

It ties the forestay directly with the mainsheet (when centered on the traveler) while sailing upwind permitting higher forestay tension and suposedly better pointing ability. With the traditional arrangement, the forestay is attached through the bridles, through the hulls, through the rear beam, and finally to the mainsheet. With the pod, forestay to pod, pod to mainsheet.

Wouter

I think what you are saying does make sence, but taking your argument from a logical starting point: When the person first tied two tree tunks together and put branches across it he invented the 1st catamaran, therefore every step since then has been a development and not an invention. Development is the key word here. The designer has never claimed to be reinventing the wheel, and yes we may have seen all the bits before on different boats.... but have we seen all the bits on the same boat?

The main point is yes it looks nice (to the majority) yes there is some development to do on the rig and the foils, but I don't think you can blame anyone for using marstrom rudders as a starting point...... THEY WORK!!!! And lets see what happens in the market place and in the sailing world when production starts.

Being sceptical is one thing but let it not stop development. Remember nothing ventured nothing gained.

Wouter

If we go back to what I understand Jim's original design brief was - carry weight + line honours I would say that it looks to be in the ball park and that the designer looks to be well on his way to fullfilling the brief. I don't believe it was intended to be a big leap forward in design so it would be diffficult to criticise him for not having done so.

Re the weight I am not talking about 160kg's helm and crew but something a tad higher and I do not believe that many F18's carrying >190kgs are competitive - IMO.

The RS600 may not be an international boat but how many RS boats are? It doesn't make them or the designers less effective. The dinghy market in the UK dwarfs the Cat market and my strolls through French sailing clubs tell me that the opposite is true elsewhere. To have introduced a sucessful boat into the UK against the well established Contender took some doing. And as regards "just that his history doesn't necessarily garantee a succesful cat design to come off his drawing board" - nor I suspect would anyone elses for that matter either!

Indeed. (on both accounts)

If you want a stiff plattform, go for the uni rigged with twin forstays. That rigg stiffens up the platform and is more efficient on an upwind/downwind course. I don't think the way to a faster boat is do add more sails, lines and other stuff. Keep the boat clean (meaning low wind resistance) and light.

If you compare the Tornado and a M20 on an upwind/downwind course the M20 will beat the Tornado on each upwind due to a more efficient rig and a cleaner and lighter boat. On the downwind it should be a bit faster but NOT on the reach.

/håkan

and I think you guys have totally lost the plot , this thread is the " Loch Ness Monster RACE " , why not start another thread to discuss pro and cons of Tekkat etc

I've heard organisers are allready getting plenty of calls from all over the world with regard to the next race (in 2009) , so who is starting to make plans for this ---- I surely am after doing two I wouldn't miss another for anything , its a long way and proved a long way in lots of wind soo far , all agreed its the ultimate challenge in uk at the moment , whos up for it ???

perhaps the f16s will appear next time to show us all how fast they are .

I'll be there (hopefully).

Another race where we can hopefully get a 25mile downwind run.

I wanted to come this year, but the arrival of our son meant that it has been penciled into my 2009 calendar.I chatted to Mikey Todd (he won the single handed division a few years ago) about it 2 weeks ago at the swiss a cat nationals and from what he told me I think it is a race I would love to do.

Daniel

It is one awesome race...not sure the boat will be there though.... twice Nessie has been gracious to her...but I aim to be and aim to get a few more to travel