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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102164
03/30/07 10:34 PM
03/30/07 10:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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...it doesn't really matter that your boat weights that much when all the other boats you're racing against are the same.


That follows the same reasoning used to defend monohull sailing. Why do you need another hull, wingmasts, full battened sails to double your speed, when everyone else's boat also drags lead and leans at 4.38 or 4.39 Knots?

Besides, races in slow motion are more "tactical"...


Luiz
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102165
03/30/07 10:50 PM
03/30/07 10:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it.


Although you may feel safer in a heavier boat, if you keep all other things equal, the lighter boat will be safer in heavy weather. It will, however, need to depower earlier due to the lower righting moment.

Why you feel safer? Most beach cats can't be reefed, so the later you have to depower, the safer you feel. But it is a dangerously false safety feeling: the heavy boat is submitted to higher loads and, as a consequence, is more likely to break something (compared to the lighter/depowered boat).

The answers are outside the water:
1) From a reliable source: a folding tri is exposed to higher loads when trailered than in a squall.
2) User abuse, as already posted here.


Luiz
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Luiz] #102166
03/31/07 06:59 AM
03/31/07 06:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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And heavier boats sink faster.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102167
03/31/07 07:09 AM
03/31/07 07:09 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I am an engineer and in some of the weather and wave conditions I've sailed in, I've been amazed that our 400lb boats hold together. No doubt that the boats can be made lighter, but I really think that there is a point, right at about 400lbs, where a boat can be made with common inexpensive materials, and survive user abuse and pretty severe conditions. As time, technology, and processes evolve, this weight comes down - we can probably build a 320lb boat to the same durability as 400lb boats were built 15-20 years ago. However, I take comfort in the fact that I can take my overweight F18 or N20 out in steep 3 to 4 footers with 20 knots and not worry that the boat will hold together.


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Luiz] #102168
03/31/07 08:06 AM
03/31/07 08:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline OP
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Quote
I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it.


Although you may feel safer in a heavier boat, if you keep all other things equal, the lighter boat will be safer in heavy weather. It will, however, need to depower earlier due to the lower righting moment.

Why you feel safer? Most beach cats can't be reefed, so the later you have to depower, the safer you feel. But it is a dangerously false safety feeling: the heavy boat is submitted to higher loads and, as a consequence, is more likely to break something (compared to the lighter/depowered boat).

The answers are outside the water:
1) From a reliable source: a folding tri is exposed to higher loads when trailered than in a squall.
2) User abuse, as already posted here.


The sail we used when we tore our main (which happened because the outhaul broke- chafe point, since corrected-, not from sheet tension alone) has a reef point, the only time I have ever seen a reef on a cat. I think Smyth developed it for this boat but my sail was made by Sabre.

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 08:14 AM.
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102169
03/31/07 08:06 AM
03/31/07 08:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 198
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davidtilley Offline
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With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102170
03/31/07 08:12 AM
03/31/07 08:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
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I am an engineer and in some of the weather and wave conditions I've sailed in, I've been amazed that our 400lb boats hold together. No doubt that the boats can be made lighter, but I really think that there is a point, right at about 400lbs, where a boat can be made with common inexpensive materials, and survive user abuse and pretty severe conditions. As time, technology, and processes evolve, this weight comes down - we can probably build a 320lb boat to the same durability as 400lb boats were built 15-20 years ago. However, I take comfort in the fact that I can take my overweight F18 or N20 out in steep 3 to 4 footers with 20 knots and not worry that the boat will hold together.


I think a poorly maintained/made 400lb boat won't hold together in crazy conditions, just like a poorly maintained lighter boat won't. Although I haven't been there yet, I am interested in seeinghow the HT does in those conditions. Mark Murray has been through a LOT on his HT and hasn't had any significant failures.

p.s. Dave- still waiting to hear about any other HTs that have had their transoms ripped out. That statement irritated the heck out of me because it is something that people will remember but is a rare occurence.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102171
03/31/07 08:51 AM
03/31/07 08:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 164
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I20RI Offline
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Speaking of Mark Murray,
I was the crew of his ht when we participated in the ICCT and logged hundreds of hours on the boat and in the class. I Own an I20(which I love) and have sailed most types of beach cats. The HT is one of the best sailing boats out there. It is incredbly fine tuned. We were able to sail the boat using the downhaul as the only control. Let it out fly a hull, pull it in, hull comes down. I know though, and would agree, that many people found the boat difficult to sail. It takes a lot of technique and I think many good sailors were put off by the rear beam slamming and the relatively narrow "groove" that one finds when used to sailing an N20 , which is a wonderful and relatively forgiving boat. Crewing the boat was extremely athletic and kinetic compared to the heavier boats with more volume. Essentially, you have to sail the boat a lot differently than what most people are used too and when there are already more events/boats/participants in f18 and n20 events why relearn something? Though I have to say, once you do,the boat is sweet! An I20 has better straight line speed on a honking reach, but the Jav, in my opinion, has a greater grin factor in the most common conditions that we see here in NA.
However, witness the amount of work and money that went into every jav still sailing in the US. Lets take Peter Johnstones boat (where is that thing?) as one extreme of what can be done to make the boat better. He put, carbon beams, raised the rear beam, canted the hulls, three inch toe rails, awlgrip paint job, marstrom snuffer and tens of thousands of dollars into that boat, and it was AWESOME! Everyone else had to deal with flimsy daggerboards and rudders, leaky boats, and that darn rear beam slamming all the time unless your crew was an acrobat darting fore and aft on every wave. There was a lot of work to do to get those boats ready out of the box. Not like a new F18 where its ready to go the day you get it.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: I20RI] #102172
03/31/07 09:01 AM
03/31/07 09:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Just as production materials and techniques eventually switched from wooden boats to fiberglass, some day we will probably see carbon fiber become the new material of choice. It already is for the A cats, most racing mono masts are now also carbon, and rudders, boards, etc. When that happens the weights will come down.

The only thing keeping the F18's heavy now is their rule book. They could all be built 50-100 lbs. lighter today even without using carbon in the hulls, but their rules won't allow it. When they come out with a 300lb. F18, then the F16's will have to worry, but I doubt we will ever see that. Until then, the F16 is only 230lbs., not carbon, and just as fast as an F18. Even faster with the right crew! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Timbo; 03/31/07 09:04 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102173
03/31/07 10:11 AM
03/31/07 10:11 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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PTP,

I think you'll find several people from that years' tybee that can tell you about the issues they had with the HT's.

Most significantly, one team who spent the night on a Georgian Coast Mudflat because of issues with their boat.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102174
03/31/07 10:24 AM
03/31/07 10:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline OP
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Michigan
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PTP,

I think you'll find several people from that years' tybee that can tell you about the issues they had with the HT's.

Most significantly, one team who spent the night on a Georgian Coast Mudflat because of issues with their boat.


I understand there were likely problems, but it isn't like the HTs are the only boats with similar problems. What about the F18 at Tradewinds that broke a mast? Trey's boat during last year's Tybee? Didn't Cat in the Hat take on a lot of water which required a stop on the beach? Both N20s

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 10:25 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102175
03/31/07 10:47 AM
03/31/07 10:47 AM
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MauganN20 Offline
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All boats break. Certainly ours did, however it was our fault as we hadn't double welded an area that was known to be a point of failure.

I think you have to look at the overall failures, the frequency of such, and how they occurred. Point being I don't have any personal experience with the HT, but I have spoken to many that do, and almost universally they have given unfavorable accounts of it.

Of course, I'm only one ancedotal jackass <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102176
03/31/07 11:19 AM
03/31/07 11:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline OP
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All boats break. Certainly ours did, however it was our fault as we hadn't double welded an area that was known to be a point of failure.

I think you have to look at the overall failures, the frequency of such, and how they occurred. Point being I don't have any personal experience with the HT, but I have spoken to many that do, and almost universally they have given unfavorable accounts of it.

Of course, I'm only one ancedotal jackass <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Everyone I have talked to about it loves it.. and this is no amateur crowd- Murray, Lambert, Bill Vining and although I haven't talked to him personally about it, Jamie Diamond also has one.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102177
03/31/07 01:17 PM
03/31/07 01:17 PM
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MauganN20 Offline
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Well then its horses for courses...

hope you're happy with your boat man. I certainly am with mine.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102178
03/31/07 02:21 PM
03/31/07 02:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 404
Chattanooga, TN
Joanna Offline
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Chattanooga, TN
I am new to sailing (and loving it!) and don't know about all the boats you are talking about. BUT I do know that a 450lb boat is TOO heavy for us (265lbs crew wt) Moving it on land is difficult (even w/cat trax) and righting it is impossible. That is one main reason we are moving to the F16.


Joanna

Blade F16
"Too Sharp to Touch"
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102179
03/31/07 02:52 PM
03/31/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Didn't a lot of the guys that were going to do the worrell in the HT do a lot of reinforcing of the boat?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102180
03/31/07 03:03 PM
03/31/07 03:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.



I for one do not think the 18HT experience says anything about how weight is valued by owners and customers.

First of all, the 18HT's were the third lightest doublehanded sailboats on the USA market when they were launched there. The 3rd and 2nd lightest doublehanders are gone and lightest design is still is still here and growing.

Secondly, the 18HT failed for other reasons that had nothing to do with it being lightish at 135 kg. I personally think it failed for much the same reasons the Taipan 5.7 failed, its predeccesor on the US market. Combined with some specific issues related to the only HT make to ever reach the US market.

Thirdly, I know from a fact that being light weight is important enough to be a critical issue in the class grow of the F16's. If we had been 150 kg or over then we would never had gotten were we are now.

The F18 class succes wasn't hampered by it being 180 kg but that weight certainly wasn't the reason why the F18 class became succesful. Meaning when it had been 150 kg its would still have been a succes maybe even more easily so.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102181
03/31/07 05:02 PM
03/31/07 05:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Still waiting to hear anyone else who has heard of a transom getting ripped out of a HT...

I think it was only Randy's boat that did that, and subsequent Bim Ht's were reinforced in that area, so I havent heard of any other transom failures.

I've run over plenty of stuff and my transom's are fine.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: I20RI] #102182
03/31/07 05:27 PM
03/31/07 05:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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I agree with i20 completely. The HT is hard to sail well, and too few good sailors bothered to learn how to sail the HT well. So too few good sailors embraced it. The Worrell didnt help either.

I love the HT in medium winds on a flat day. A Newport summer day, mid week, with no powerboat chop and a nice 12 knot seabreeze, the boat just sings. I love it singlehanded in 5-12 knots, especially downwind, its one of the sweetest experiences around, and I wouldnt trade it for anything.

In 18knts and gusty its a handful, and its not very forgiving. In gusty winds over 18kts takes two people who know what they are doing to make the boat go fast. WF and Matt Struble were a perfect example, they were fast, but they were BOTH good sailors.

I've had mine out in 30knts plus -sustained - and the boat was fine, its solid, the mast is solid, and hulls are solid. The daggers and rudders are the weak points. I've also had the rudders fail the first time I sailed it, so some of what is said about the rudders and leaky daggers is true.

The main reason the HT and the HT class failed in my opinion was the Worrell. If the class had grown organically and done mainly windward leeward racing it would still be in existance today. The HT wasnt designed for the Worrell and should have never been selected for that race.

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102183
03/31/07 05:31 PM
03/31/07 05:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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By the way, there's not reason we can get all the HT owners together do some racing.

PTP why not get some races organized?

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