I am sorry I consumed a huge plate of enchiladas and made a major contribution to global warming. I am also sorry I scared the dog at 3 AM.

I am vindicated! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why is farming for corn to create ethanol taking off so fast when it takes more energy to make than it gives off when used?

Isn't that true of all fossil fuels as well? Probably all fuels except nuclear fusion.

Where's Jake when you need him?

I'm sorry that people in this thread aren't apologetic. How uncouth!

I'm sorry for that incident with the boot and the sad rendition of Princess Consuella Bananahammock's "I am Woman"

I'm just sorry <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry that Tback's so sorry.

Are you counting the sun? How are you quantifying "energy". I've often wondered about that myself. I saw a piece on some fuel conservation tv show about this group that has figured out how to process old plastic into a burnable 'diesel' fuel...but it took something like three specialty (and rather large by comparison) incineration processes to produce something like 3 liters of the juice. Had to be 100 times the energy required to make it.

wait...how in the hell did we get here again? Can I apologize again?


I'm sorry we're talking about this crap again.

I'm not sorry! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Get back to work!

yes m'am.

I'm sorry I read this thread.

I'm sorry I have to throw this in.

http://www.celunol.com/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vinod-khosla/president-bush-please-de_b_39326.html

And I'm sorry the oil companies own the White House.

Now, you will really be sorry you read this thread. The nerd scientist is about to post. Turn away if you must!

Studies by the DOE indicate that the return on your energy inputs for various forms of energy differs greatly (big revelation there). Gasoline is estimated to provide a return of .85 (it takes more energy input for drilling, refining, transportation then you get back out). Energy return from ethanol from corn is about 1.3, also not very good since we are talking about a lot on inputs to grow a bushel of corn. As Jake indicates, the capturing of solar energy is the way to go. But, solar cells are rather inefficient. What’s better? Plants and the biomass that they produce. Plants capture about 40 percent of the solar energy that hits their leaves. It is estimated that tropical grass crops can produce 20 tons of useable biomass per acre. By having microorganisms and digestive enzymes act on this biomass to produce alcohols, you supposedly get a return on your energy input as high as 10 fold. These grasses capture the sun, grab some water, and grow 10 feet tall (with far less input by the farmer compared to corn). There are other grasses besides the tropical ones that are being investigated in the Midwest and the eastern part of the US. Germany and other countries are ahead of the US in this area (in my uninformed opinion).

The future is not fuel from grain. If you want to see food costs go up, just keep taking grain and turn it into alcohol for fuel (ethanol from grain for beer is vitally important to mankind, but not grain for car fuel). It will be alcohols (note I didn’t say ethanol) from total biomass. It will not replace fossil fuels, just augment them.

Also, scientists are working on making microorganisms to turn plant material into some other alcohol besides ethanol. Why? Because ethanol attracts moisture and will rust pipelines and other things that are not suppose to be exposed to water. Ethanol also has a low BTU rating compared to other longer chain alcohols. So, expect to see the industry go away from ethanol once the darn government stops subsidizing ethanol production. Heck, poor people in Mexico can’t even get corn tortillas because they now cost too much because of corn going to ethanol production? That sucks since I love tortillas.

I apologize for extending this thread. But, I had just walked out of a seminar on bioenergy and I couldn’t resist. I am not saying that everything I wrote is accurate. I just regurgitated what I heard in the seminar.

I bet I am going to regret making this post...

Cheers
Bob

No Tortillas!!!?? [Sentence Enhancer]!!!!

Thanks Bob! I'm sorry you had to apologize.

Take a look at the link I provided on Celunol and
Vinod Khosla (I think he had something to do with Sun Microsystems, or some such).

Government subsidies and tax breaks. My wallet will be sorry.

So if your car makes a ton of carbon dioxide, from X gallons of gas, it produced more than that ton to get X gallons of gas in the tank? True? (Assume the oil industry is Fossil fuel powered)

Grasses - including sugar cane, or just grass as biomass fuel - make steam, turn a turbine? - or both - make alcohols and turn a turbine with the biomass-?
What can you tell us about algae as a solar collector? It seems the ease of handling and the high oil content would be big plusses after the inevitable de-watering hurdle?