I'm considering selling my P19 and getting an F18. I'm not sure how much time I'll have to get away from the family and attend far away big regattas.I say this because I've heard of Hobie's exclusion of other manufacturers boats from their big regattas. Boat for boat-do any of you guys prefer one over the other? Thanks, Greg

do we prefer one to the other?......... Yes we certainly do. But we are all trying to protect the money that we have spent!.

Just go with whatever one the friendliest/most helpfull sailors have so that you can practise with them loads.

Welcome aboard.

Exactly what he said!

Ok. How about this. Do you guys have an opinion on the newer Nacra Infusion (planing) vs the older wave piercing design??

Do a quick search and you will find this topic debated many times. The short answer is buy which boat you like the best. Of the main 3 manufacturers, no boat has any clear advantage over the other and only having a marginal improvement when the conditions are suited to that boat.

If you find you are in an area that has a large Nacra fleet, go for the Nacra. Same goes for Hobie and Capricorn etc. This means you should have the support of the guys who are sailing your exact boat and should help in learning how to sail the thing.

Tiger Mike

I'd add to what Mike said in this way - there are amazing deals to be had out there right now. If you are looking to buy the latest, newest thing out there, be prepared to pay a premium - somewhere between $14k and $16k for a new boat. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a strong intro to the class, spin up to speed and take advantage of falling prices among current owners that are near the top of the fleet and committed to picking up a new boat before Nationals in October, you can find really sound two-year-old boats with good race sails and up-to-date rigging for less than half the cost of a new Tiger, Cap or Infusion.

That said... I bought new. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Happy shopping!

If you are buying to race with others. Find out what is the most supprted in your area to give you the most opertunity to sail.

Then buy the best boat available you can afford. Which ever brand it is.

Then have fun sailing it.

As a Formula 18 group we are fotunate to be able to choose our boats based on lots of criteria, including manufacturer if we are so inclined, without worrying about which is better. This is a box rule class and the box is very successful. Meaning that most of the boats are equal around the course. I have sailed on my own and other's Tigers, Infusions, Nacra F18s. Even the Tigers were a bit different based on the character and preferences of the owners. All of the boats are different in feel and all the same in speed. It is astonishing that way.

Are you planning on buying a new boat or a used boat? We can all chime in a little more if we know. If you are buying an older boat there are some concerns that will have to be addressed depending on the boat. One big example it the Nacra I-18 was sold with a carbon mast which in no longer even grandfathered into being legal anymore.

Later,
Dan

Thanks for all your input. I understand where you are all coming from as a class. I'm interested in buying a used boat especially since I saw that I could get a 2-year-old boat for around $8000. I will be doing a bit of racing in my area and hope to mix it up with some of the NJ and New England sailors. Can you guys give me an idea of what to look for in terms of abuse, wear and tear? I've raced cats for 20 years now and am familiar with the usual stress cracks, worn gelcoat, threadbare tramp etc.. What can you tell me to look for in terms of spinnaker wear and tear? I know that they can be gossamer thin and have been on board monohulls when they exploded. Thanks, Greg

Hey Greg -

Most sails around two-years old will be fine for club racing and getting to know the boat. You probably won't have to rush out and buy anything right away - two seasons is usually only around 20-50 regattas, I'd guess. A reasonably well-maintained two-year-old boat will have you out racing right away.

You can probably just go by age on most sails; on a race boat, jibs are good for about a season and a half before being relegated to "practice sail" status. This is assuming it hasn't been badly flogged in a squall or something. The material should still have a decent finish on it, and it should not be a limp noodle when rolled from the top. The state of the tell-tales might also be an indicator if they haven't been replaced - badly frayed or sun-damaged tells may indicate a jib ready for retirement. Also look for "permanent shape" - if the jib hangs with shape already stretched into it (i.e., the clew is always hooked to one side or the other, bad luff curve, etc.), then expect to have to replace it before a bigger event.

Check for color-uniformity on the spin - I've noticed that coloured spinnaker cloth seems to fade at wear and stress points as it ages. I think there is a fairly wide variation in spinnaker life based upon lofts - some are lasting longer than others. Go over the spin carefully looking for repairs and checking seams - spread it out and really look closely. I think you can get two seasons out of a well-cared-for and well-built spinnaker.

In any case, unless the boat is advertised with newer sails (within the last six or eight months), you might anticipate buying new sails before Nationals in October depending upon your seriousness. I have only experienced new F18 sail purchases from Goodall; a jib and spinnaker were about $1,000 (I think I got a bit of a deal as an existing customer).

Happy shopping - that is half the fun, I think. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks John! That is the kind of info I was looking for. Greg

I think that John is generous on the number of regattas that a two year old boat sees. I would guess that his numbers may be the total amount of days an average boat sees on the water in two years. Mine is on the water a bit more, but I think it unusual. I go through about 2 spinnakers a year. If you wonder if a spinnaker is alright it probably is not, but that is just me. I just ordered a new one. I have one for kicking around, one for Formula 18 racing and one for Hobie class racing. My racing sail becomes my kick around sail and the kick around goes away. Main and Jib will last about two years easily. Even mylar/petax sails get soft with use. I am on my second main and need to get another for a 3 1/2 year old boat. I am on my third jib. Not too expensive, even so, for racing anything. Pick anything else you race that costs less? We are lucky to be able to be out in the great of nature finding ways to use it to our advantage, and not spending a fortune doing it.

Later,
Dan

The sails for the J-22 I crew on cost a lot less than my P19 MX sails.

Dan has got the rotation of sails right, but i would say that after 2 years, you should change the boat. F18 is a fast developing class and it is a mistake to enter in to it thinking that your boat can be up to what ever level it is when you buy it, for any longer than this.
So spend as much as you can on a boat but dont expect it to become part of the family. If this scares you a bit, stick to one design sailing.

paul

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that the whole concept of the Formula class of beach cats was to make them similar to one design thus doing away with the imperfections of the handicap system. It allows innovative flexibility while staying within the box rule. What is changing so quickly with regards to the hulls?

One of the great strengths of F18 is that there (so far) has not been any single revolution that has rendered the entire fleet obsolete. On the flip side, designs will come and go and gradually get better over time. Nacra are onto their 3rd complete boat and both Capricorn and Hobie have both had evolutionary changes.

Taking the current Tiger which has probably changed least, over the last 5 years all their sails, spreaders, trampolines, front bridal arrangement and rudders have all changed, not to mention the introduction of self tackers/snuffers which were both around 4 - 5 years ago. With the exception of the (very) recent bridal upgrade, all performance related changes are easily retro fitted to older boats.

Also, as boats get older they are never as rigid as a new one. How soft they get is largely dependent on the prevailing sea state but every boat is affected in some way. If nothing else, a new boat looks shinier and therefore must be faster than the old one <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

Even though the Tiger is the same shape does not mean it has not changed. There was a time that the Tigers were coming in a bit heavy, around the Worlds in Santa Barbara. I talked to factory people while I was in France and they said they have a new lay up that allows the boats to be stiff, what they were trying to achieve when they got heavy, but gets them back down to the minimum weight.

I may have to agree with TeamVMG about getting a newer boat. I sail mine alot and have been told by very good friends that I should consider a newer boat. I was thinking a suit of sails was in the cards for me to get the speed back. We are still sailing competitively but do not have the blazing speed that made it easier to get around the course well even with a couple of minor mistakes.

After sailing a new boat on the Sunday of the last regatta, it happened to be an Infusion, I am thinking, thinking, thinking.

Later,
Dan

Nacra Infusion Planing is the way of the future. Designers will concentrait more and more on a crossover hull that can wave pierce into chop but have a higher top speed in flatter conditions by clearing the hull of the water.
We will look back in only five years at the present boats as archaic.