Wow, there it is again.

Please insert F18 in place of A boat.............

The A is a good boat, and many times it looks very fast because most of them are sailed by very good sailors with lots of experience. Who else would put that much money into one. BUT, I have seen them beaten boat for boat by F17's for example. I've even beaten a few (at the Island Hop Regatta July 2005 I think it was), but that was probably more about the wind speed and my extra sail.

Most all the new boats are really good! Any one of them can beat the other when sailed by a good sailor. I was lucky enough to see an F17 beat a bunch of F18's and Nacra 20's boat for boat in several bouy races, and those 18's and 20's were sailed by very good sailors. But it was more about the guy on the F17 than the boat ...............

How about this example, Did anyone see the America's Cup series with NZ vs Prada? I believe NZ won like the first three races all due to picking the correct side of the course. If NZ's tactician had been on Prada, that boat may very easily have won those races...............

Tom

Compaq Keyboard #124 (w/jib kit)

The fact that I commented on the fact that the F18's are most often found in the lead (as in being the boats to beat in open class races) doesn't suggest that I think everybody should get unto an F18 or that I DISAGREE with your comments Thomm. Because I do agree with them.

Wouter

Sorry, Bern, but you're going to have to come up with a more creative analogy if you want to have any credibility here. Warbird, Wouter, et. al. have worn that one out on the Hobie 16.

Off the top of my head, others used for the Hobie 16, but not so worn are:

Agricultural (don't quite get that one, must be a NZ thing)
Harley-Davidson
GM
Boat for thrashing monkeys
Dinosaur

Jerome Vaughan
Clinton, Mississippi
Own a 1972 VW SuperBeetle Convertible.
Born in the Mississippi Delta (how agricultural is that!).
Drove a few Harleys.
Own a 1995 Buick LeSabre.
Still considering Thrashing Monkey for a boat name.
Burn more than my share of dead dinosaurs in my big-butt truck.

You all agree with me! Now that's a big step in the right direction. Oh I know there were some feeble / pathetic attempts to push other agendas, [H16 ha ha ha ha ha ha] that only fit into the 'my boat's better than your boat but I really don't have a valid reason for saying so' argument, but essentially I get the idea that, like me you'd all love to own, sail and race an 'A' and you don't really know the reason you're not doing so. Even Lord Wouter started drooling at just the thought of 'A' fleets in the hundreds and then blurted "F18's are the best boat" and then tried to change that to F16 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Amazing what EGO does to us.

Good to see some common sense finally filtering into this forum even if it is sometimes just a bit cryptic. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2dogs

This is a reeeaallly mature conversation...no really, it is. And so productive too...

Prada might have won two but all? I think Torban needs to flag match racing and go back to the fleet.
But the rest I agree with. My dogs bigger than your dog is old and boring.

agricultural. adjective...suggests a plow or similar low tech object. But remember we still need plows to eat many foodstuffs. Stuffs...get it.
Harley Davidson..suggests overpowered and under developed.
Actually I think tha the longevity (16 feet 9 inches actually) of the H16 puts it in an unbeatable place and I must have some form of fear or envy or I would not rib it.
I just don't want one....

This thread was opened up specifically for childish expressions of boat superiority so other threads are left clean for you grown ups.
By the way, my boats better than your boat.

Ye gads Jake, your right, I am such a rotter!

Back on the boat for a minute (any boat/catamaran). All non-expert boat drivers need to know what the combination of mast rotation and prebend can do. Best place for an explanation that I know of is www.landenberger-sailing.com
click on sails then go to tuning guide A Class 2005. You will need to read this article several times. Well, maybe you won't, but I had to. (BTW, there is a really good F18 tuning guide there as well)

My other big mistake was sheeting. (both oversheeting and undersheeting at times)

And don't forget about weight distribution. Look at just how far forward the good sailors actually are on their boats when trapped out going up wind. I've seen some with one foot in front of the front main beam. (in certain wind conditions) Well, it keeps the sterns up and helps out with pointing I believe.(keeps the bows in the water which lengthens the water line?*!)

I think so many new cat sailors don't pay enough attention to the importance of prebend and rotation because we didn't even have to worry about that on our Hobie 16's......

And don't forget about the downhaul***************

Now, all you will need is another boat same as yours (and sailor) to go out and tune and test with.

That's the spirit! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Monkey Boy, just trying to spread the love.

Oh is that so, well my boat ate a laser the other day, and didn't get constipated! So there!

Need to get a shirt..."My boat can kick your boats butt!"

Well my mossie flew past every ones boat on the w/e.

Its a pity that its still getting stripped and painted and I was asleep <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

William
nswmossie.com 1635

my uncle's a police dog and if you keep picking on me I will send him round to dump on your lawn....now that's just childish.....kinda like not respecting each others choice of ride and supporting them.....
I hereby state I will not, for any reason slag off anyone elses choice of ride for any reason.
repeat after me.......I will not, for any reason slag off anyone elses ride for any reason.

i'm not sure what "slag off" means, but I think I have to give this a ditto.

Different boats for different folks and different purposes. The perfect boat is what works best for YOU.

At the yacht club where I grew up, we had several different one-design classes -- Lightnings, Thistles, Highlanders, International 21's, Snipes, Shark catamarans -- and it was not considered nice to diss each other's classes or try to aggressively persuade people to switch classes. Everybody respected the boat choices of others.

(But that was a long time ago.)

Nope...

Upwind I would say they are about the same speed.

Downwind, F16 (well mine) is about 10% quicker.

10% faster? Hummm. Than what? I would guess that would be the I-17. That seems a bit much but okay. The I-17 is a single-handed fun play boat. The I-17(R) is your racing edition of the I-17. It has a carbon mast which is about 2' longer than the 28' aluminum mast of the I-17. Also, the mainsail on the R is larger. Plus, it comes with and is setup to handle a spinnaker. The I-17R became the F17.

The F17 will sail downwind boat for boat with almost anything out there under 22' ...............that is, if you know a little bit about how and where to sail it. And, you know how to handle the spinnaker, are in the correct location on the boat(proper weight distribution), you have made all your correct adjustments for downwind sailing(pulling the proper strings, raising the boards, reseting rotation/downhaul,etc), the prebend is correct, and you are not sailing into the tide or on the side of the course where there isn't any wind.

Thomm,

Downwind on a F16 when 1-up, you'll overtake F18's and F20's/inter 20's. Upwind is always a game of who can trim their rigs the best and get their boats to stream.

I have heard similar comments about the I-17R (F17 or however it is called now). There is not too much difference between these boats in performance. The differences are mostly to be found in the boat specs. The I-17R having about 3 sq.mtr more sailarea (30 sq. ft.) and having more "ready to sail" weight. Rating systems reflect this situation.

For example.

Texel rating F18 = 101 (with US PN = 62.4)
Texel rating F16 = 101 (with US PN = 67.1)
Texel rating I-17R = 103 (with US PN = 66.7)

But US PN is WAAAAAY off in relating the F16/F17's to the F18's. And that is why the F16's in US are racing off the 2-up D-PN handicap which is at 65.2. I think the F17's should have a faster rating then 66.7 as well.

They are both fast boats when singlehanded. The EU and Aussie I-17's however are simply alot slower overall. Personally I have not seen a single F17 being exported outside of the US however and in the long run this is going to be an issue for this class.

So is this fair and mild enough to all you guys ?

Wouter

Wouter:
Almost...I thought that you are the biggest proponent of rating the F16 with the same numbers whether one up or two up. If so why not just say F16 instead of your comment?

Later,
Dan