John,

Your idea sounds great. The only potential "problem" I can see is that I think everyone who participates in an Alter Cup Qualifier has to be a paid member of US Sailing. This requirement seems to have been a drawback in the past as far as getting people to participate in the qualifiers -- if they are not members of US Sailing, they don't see why they should pay the extra money to join just so they can sail in this one event and take a chance that they might win.



I am not really clear on whether you are planning to choose the winner from a group that belong to US Sailing and are signing up specifically for the qualifier or if you are planning to choose the winner of the overall group, many of whom may not be members of US Sailing. In the latter case, would it be "legal"? And what if the winner is not a member?



In the early days of the Alter Cup, I think some of the areas were a little more loose about the US Sailing membership requirement, and the winner, if not a member, was allowed to join after the regatta was over.



Area Reps in the past have sometimes tried to include the Alter Cup Qualifier within bigger events, but it didn't usually work too well because the sailors had to make a choice as to whether to sail in the Qualifier or sail in their usual one-design class or in a much bigger open Portsmouth class.



Personally, I think everyone who races should be a member of US Sailing; and it would make it a lot easier to do these qualifying events. But, unfortunately, that is not the case.



Maybe you already have this situation covered.



The BIG problem regarding the Alter Cup has always been general apathy. There just is not a lot of interest in it and there is not much publicity and hype to get people interested. It would be great if we could get ladder events going throughout the various US Sailing Areas, just as the monohulls do, leading up to the big qualifier event and ultimately to the championship. But, again, we run into that problem of US Sailing membership.

I agree with what Mary said but would like to propose this: Instead of taking "the winner" and introducing all sorts of US Sailing Membership problems, how about taking the highest placing US Sailing Member at the time? Don't exclude anybody from the qualifier but it will be tough luck for the people who won but weren't members (i.e. won the battle but not the war ).



I also think that turning the event back into a true "Championship" will bring with it more excitement and following than if it continues to be dominated by a group of well known sailors selected by petition. The American Football and Baseball Allstar games are exciting and bring a lot of attention but they don't come close to the interest generated by their respective true Championship / SuperBowl games. Bring on the rock stars for the Alter Cup but make it a fair fight for up and comers with qualifiers for all.

Hi Jake and Mary -



You are correct - US Sailing membership is required to sail in the Qualifier. I was trying to avoid placing an add for membership on the Forum - suffice it to say I will be at the registration table in Clearwater with some goodies, and explaining to anyone who's not currently a member what all the benefits (monetary and otherwise) of joining are. Benefits are year-'round, not just for the one regatta. Great Juniors membership option, too. If anyone is interested, please take a look at the Golden Anchor program at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/ga.htm. 'Nuff said.



Regarding the way that the Clearwater folks are asking me to score the Qualifier/Fla Champs in November - there will be breakouts for one-design fleets, the Qualifier, and overall. Only US Sailing members will be scored in the Qualifier - there's a place on the entry form to indicate if you're sailing one or both fleets. There's no extra registration cost to sail in BOTH events. US Sailing membership is encouraged, but IS NOT required to compete in the Fla State Champs. That's the difference from years-past - you don't have to choose one or the other! Do one, or do both!



I like the idea of ladder events like the big boats do - I have gotten a number of e-mails on that. The trick will be, just like with the Qualifier, convincing a club or fleet that its not a big deal to designate an existing regatta part of a ladder. The regatta schedule looks very full - without use of existing regattas, I don't see how a series of new events could be built without stealing participants from someone else's event. That's counterproductive! Something to look into as the season winds down - thanks!



John

I sailed as a crew in a Alter cup race in Pensacola in 1998 the weekend before the Hobie nationals. I was not a member of US sailing but the skipper and boat owner was and asked if I needed to be a member, the answer was no. After sailing a Hobie 18 against some super cat 22 with chutes and sailing some 2 to 3 hour races without any breaks( as soon as we finished they started the next race) I was intrested to see how we did and come to find out we were not scored because I was not a member. That was my first and last Alter cup race.



David Lennard

Rick you wrote:

But, when you start getting into selecting other sailors, how do you do it? Popularity? Who made the most posts on the Forum? or just someone off the beach? That destroys, weakens and dirties the water for the Alter Cup.



Rick your rant is not substantiated in any way!

Why is the current process foul? You point to ONE example (The fiirst one with 20 boats) where the organizors were behind the curve. Since then, the organizers have done a terrific job assembling the participants. If you disagree... point to how the current process if flawed.



From my point of view the process is reasonable.

First of all... you have to be willing to take the time and money to atttend.... (This happens to be the serious racers)

To prove that you are willing you must apply. To prove that you are qualified you must send in a sailing resume which documents your qualifications.



So.... now the selection committe has data... IE How you have performed in national competitive regattas. This evaluation is pretty strait forward. Factors such as number of boats in the regatta that you beat will be taken into account as well. If you are saying that the committe has shown bias or excluded eqaually qualified sailors... Make the charge and provide some evidence.



Could you have a dead even tie... Sure... but I don't think that you too many cases where solomon like wisdom is required. But if you believe this to be foul... make the charge and provide some evidence.



The goal of the US Sailing is to provide a high quality championships for its members. The event must be worth attending cause you don't win money.



Prior to the invitation to class champions and petitions… the event was completely without interest to the majority of the cat racing community. Frequently, the Area winners would not even attend, nor would the runner ups! The good racers would not spend a week competing for a title of any stature, when half the racers were not competitive (after winning a 3 or 5 boat regional qualifier held on a Thursday… (true in the Northwest). Participation was restricted by how far away you had to travel. Now at least the serious racers want to compete in the championship Regatta and will attend the qualifiers because the racing is of a very high level and the talent is pretty deep. Interest has dramatically improved.



US Sailings goal is to have lots of participation and interest in the championship... The current format has improved participation and certainly generated more interest.



You also write:

wonder why the Alter Cup is no longer sanctioned as a US Sailing Championship and wonder why multihulls remain as outcasts.



You are factually wrong.

The US Sailing body demoted SEVERAL other championships BECAUSE their sports marketing consultant told them that they had too many championships and it was confusing to market. It was NOT because we had petitions for the championships as you infer. This desciion was made at the Baltimore US Sailing meeting and NO decisions made by the Multihull council or the championship committe affected the outcome in any way.



Cat sailors are NOT second class citizens by US Sailings actions. If we do not have much clout in US Sailing policy, It is because we DO NOT WANT TO PLAY with the yacht club infrastructure that is the heart and soul of US Sailing. If we insist on creating seperate organizations (like NAMSA) and not playing ball with US Sailing they are not upset... They say... SURE do you own thing... but don't expect us to be able to serve your needs either.



Respectfully

Mark

Hi John



I suggested that perhaps the qualifiers could be restricted to one of 4 classes of boats as a step towards increasing turnout in areas with a strong one design constituency. Since the calender is full and/or racers have limited time and money the idea is to make the Alter qualifier appealing. Forcing people to choose between their one design class and the open Alter Class does not work.



For instance if the Alter boat is a Hobie 16 then at the usual Hobie regatta which is also the Alter qualifier, the Hobie 16 one design class could be broadend to include those level rated boats P16, N5.0's etc... score them on portmouth and designate the winner. If you sail a different sized boat... your turn will come around in a year or so.



This solution works in regions where one design fleets are active.... If the area is primarily racing on Portsmouth, I agree with you that this solution would limit participation.



I am not convinced that this solution is worthwhile either.



Take Care

Mark

Hi Mark -



In the case of this year's Qualifier (at least in Area D), you don't have to choose between your one-design class or open Portsmouth. You can do both. It's just a question of me sitting in front of my laptop a little longer while everyone else is drinking beer and discussing skirt length.



Your idea would be useful is designing a multihull ladder, though - other folks have suggested something similar. Looks like that will be one of my next pursuits based on the amout of e-mail from sailors in this Area. Hmmm.



Thanks again -



John

Mark,

It was John Williams in an earlier post who said that the reason the Alter Cup was no longer a championship was because of the petitions. And I posted in response that I had never heard that before -- US Sailing gave me the same reason you stated -- too many championships, too hard to market and confusing for the media. I think Rick was just going with what John said, and I am not sure that is correct.

John,

I think your plan will work great at Clearwater.



Just thinking, if we could establish a ladder program using the open classes at several other events during the season, maybe that could help to boost US Sailing membership, too. People will start thinking in terms of "This regatta is not just the Cakewalk Regatta, it is also a stepping stone to the National Multihull Championship." And maybe having a points system for all these preliminary ladder regattas would give people not only more incentive to join US Sailing but also to go to as many of the designated ladder-step regattas as possible, because the finalists will be chosen to go on to the Alter Cup Qualifier based upon their accumulated points over the season. Very similar to what the Hobies used to do with their points system to get to their National Championships. (This would also solve the problem of the areas being so large, because there could be ladder events throughout the entire area, accessible to everyone.)



I know NAMSA would be happy to help do the work to make this happen, because one of NAMSA's primary goals is to help the Multihull Council implement ideas that the Council is basically impotent to act upon within the US Sailing structure.



Wow, you are going to go to that US Sailing meeting armed with more information than any other Area Rep! Be careful, you might get elected to a higher position, and we need you doing what you are doing right now.

Hi John



We conducted the Alter qualifier at the annual Cambridge regatta several years ago. This is a monohull dinghy and cat regatta with about 120 boats on the water that year. We had over 30 boats racing and at least 20 of them were US SAiling members and qualified for the Alter cup. John Matzner scored the single start as, Portsmouth 16's. Portsmouth Open, and Alter Cup. I believe Chris Brown won that year. Your plan should work well.



The feedback that I recieved was the following.

1) Not enough wind... The Chesapeak in the summer was too dicy , wind wise to award a major championship.



2) Not enough flexability with setting up the race course. The yacht club was committed to ABC courses at the time and so the tactical decisions were limited.



Both were valid critiques.



Two schools of thought emerged:

Participation is great and should be emphasized!..Lots of sailors competed who would not have bothered to travel to a small Alter qualifier. Some joined US Sailing who through apathy had not gotten around to it.



The other school is that elite racing should be emphasized. What was the point of a big turnout?... The handful of serious teams were at the top of the standings and would have competed anyway at a smaller Alter qualifier even!. Small competive fleets let you get lots of racing in without having to wait for the slow guys. After all, Its not about the party.



My take home is that unless you can make the Alter event a stand alone fun event...(Sounds like your plans at Clearwater Sailing) most sailors don't care about competing for the slot and will not travel for it.. The top flight sailors who do care will go racing and so be it that its a small regatta. Mark Santorelli is running Area C at Trixie's Landing on the Barnegat Bay in NJ the following weekend. I expect several F18HT sailors, Several H17 sailors, 2 to 4 H16 racers and one to three I20 teams to compete. Mark does a spectacular job of PRO and his team of volunteers are fantastic.



Take Care

Mark

Mike,

If anyone needs to know anything about the Dart 20 (or 18) I have a copy of the manual and class rules. There is no mention of min. weight.

This cat is out of production, but is still sailed in Europe, mainly in Holland. It would never be raced singlehanded in European winds for safety reasons - difficult to right.



Another subject: I noticed in the Dart 20 rules that it states that both rudders must be down at all times when racing. This is normal practise in most classes in Europe. Why do Hobie sailors indulge in the dangerous practice of sailing with one rudder raised. There is no advantage when class racing.

Dermot Mangan

Spitfire 044

Hi John ,

Great that you can invoke such great responces , we need more like you in the sport .



If any attempt to understand the sport with the goal of improving it ,believe some basic facts and consistant truths must be recognized , once recognized these can act as the foundations to build the sport and better future events on ,

--or the present course as option groups can choose to continue to segment into smaller seperatist groups that alienate one another and slowly decrease the numbers active in the sport as a whole .



In putting the giant puzzle of all the many pieces and segments of the sport together in N A ,--with the goal of larger partisipation at all events ,--the one main factor in the couple decades I,ve been around has always been that Hobie has about 70 percent of the total market as we see again shown by the turnout at the mega event . The other 30 % is divided up among all other types and classes . This may have changed somewhat and will continue to , particularly geographically in Mi with CRAM ,--,but being an avid H-18 sailor for a decade myself I understand the advantages of large fleets and good class racing .I was very fortunate through the 80s to have great class racing in Div 10 , and could mix in CRAM races with the option to race most every weekend if desired .

H-centric policies seem to have helped lead to the smaller total numbers in the sport , thus a smaller total market share , and in some areas like MI , the H Division 10 has all but disappeared , somewhat backfiring on this brand centric thinking .Thank goodness and many great catsailors in CRAM that have always held the philosophy of including all types of cats to race together primarily in classes with designated fleet captains in each and sometimes also scored in rated groups when suffecient class numbers were not present.

Most still purchase a H for that reason ,-great class racing in many geographic areas. The comments from David ,-who as you know is one of the best catsailors and all around good guys you could ever hope to meet and is very active in the N C area promoting races ,--echoes the sentiments of many H sailors .

Most actually contact one another , or seek a roll call of cats in their class to insure they will be racing in a class before considering attending any event as opposed to racing by themselves against very dis similar lengths and types of cat designs in a P rated group start .

Again many are alienated by this type of rated handicap racing and aviod it ,-the overwhelming preference is class racing -there are simply too many flaws and faults--as listed previously in others posts in any type of rated racing .



Basing an event with qualifiers in handicap racing then switching to one design seems perplexing , though am glad that it is recognized that class racing is a truer form and appropriate for championship calibur events .



So how do reasonable inteligent catsailors without brand investment break down the barriers , but retain the good foundations of class racing to promote the sport ?

Some believe it is by promoting P rated racing ,--but would again point to facts percentages and prevailing history . It has never worked .



I,m very encouraged by current events in CRAM evolving ,

There will be F-18 Tigers racing along with several N-F-18s in the 03 season .

Good news in the H P F-16 Class with Bimare providing a new 16 similar to the 18 ,geared towards the single hander -with spin weighing approx, 220 ,this is a great class .

--The 18 HT Formula Class has of course gotten a great just start ,--we will be racing them at the 03 Alter Cup event and in the Worrell 1000 ,-with numerous other great 18 hts available soon this class also looks very promising .

We have hammered out good basic rules for a N A Formula 20 class which we hope follows suit , having a great many excellent existing designs to modify with spin into or new F-20 specific designs available .

Along with several great existing One design classes ,-

A-Class --Tornados ,--H-16s ,-and other good classes ,---

Should not this be the foundations we support and build on providing catsailors with good class racing .?



With the intent of building on this time proven larger foundation of class racing ,--

Maybe a better form of year end race that would include and help unite all cat sailors would be allowing each sail club and recognized catsailing group across the country based on membership numbers to send representatives -one or more teams from their respective sail club to represent them , held on one of the formula classes or popular one design classes similarly alternating each year ,allowing all to bring that type of boat along with a number of charters for those traveling longer distances .Charters could be arranged within individual sailing clubs as well.

It would certainly draw in larger broader interest and partisipation , and yes ,-antisipating responce ,--would be very pleased to help organize it with others interested .



thanks again John ,

will really miss your countdowns this May ,

but if you ever get the notion to be a wild and crazy guy for two weeks in May , currently seeking a good lightweight crew for the W-1000 ,---though all need to work up to that one , it gets a little too wild and crazy at times , but what a great event for the sport ,like so many , I love it

Sail safe

have fun

Carl Roberts



-

Here is why I think 20 teams is the way to go...



There are a couple of areas that currently don't have the sailing talent to beat a couple of the other areas.... So, would it really be interesting to watch 10 teams w/2 fleets? The 3-4 teams at the front beating the guys in the back like a red headed step child. Or you could have 20 teams there with more top sailors and tigher racing. A lot of the top teams don't race the same boats. I for one think it's fun to watch them all be on the exact same boat at the same time.



I'll talk about area D, because that is what I know... ponder this... Randy Smyth, Bob Curry, Brian Lambert, Robbie Danniels, Kevin Smith, Nigel Pitt, Alex Schafer....Just the top of the pile in area D... how many people did I leave out of that list? How many more are in the next list, just nipping at these guys heels? If it is going to be a "true" championship, how can you call it that w/o really having the best there. CA and TX... also look at the quantity of quality sailors there. How much fun is it really to watch the guys from areas X, Y, and Z get beat while it's only a 3 boat race... if that even.



Yeah, fun is the name of the game at the end of the day, but at some point it does have to be about the racing. If the Alter Cup is going to be our CHAMPIONSHIP, then the competitors and competition should be #1. So, when someone says, who is the best, you can say...X won the alter cup and Y was second...etc.



Will R