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Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: windswept] #118296
10/03/07 11:22 AM
10/03/07 11:22 AM
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Another post from across the pond. Here is what some of them are saying about our efforts with our fight.


We can talk about this untill we are blue in the face , but this wont affect the RYA and its actions , we need to do something now before we run out of time to have any effect atall.
The American cat sailors had exactly the same problem when their organising body ANNOUNCED that they were submitting to remove cat sailing from the Olympics , our fellow cat sailors across the pond had the advantage in that their organisation made their intentions public and in time to do something about it .

USA cat sailors made the organising body change their submission to actually supporting future cat racing .

We need to learn from their experience and DO SOMETHING QUICKLY before its to late for us , time is not on our side due to the underhand fashion in which the RYA has gone about this .

I believe the US cat sailors started with 1 petition on line to which they could all agree to sign , with which they could show the level of dissaproval , not sure what else they did , but it worked .

With an online petition we can get all our fellow cat sailors and clubs to add their names to and will give us something to target our dissaproval with. For every cat sailor that writes in a forum there must be 100 that agree but wont speak out , but I bet they can be persuaded to sign a petition. Nor do they have to be specific cat sailors , just sailors with an interest in competition , sailing developement and overall fairness.


Tom Siders
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Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: windswept] #118297
10/03/07 11:46 AM
10/03/07 11:46 AM
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This reply is specifically intended to only answer some questions asked about the F12. It is not intented to move the discussion on the youth path and national associations towards the F12 in anyway. Depending on the outcomes of the larger discussion the F12 may or not be part of the "youth cat track".

Windswept.


>>I like the F12 and wonder if this can be setup to be a safe, easy to rig boat, that also is easy
>>to right.

As things stand now, the answer is "yes" on all above points. And in some cases even extremely so.


>>A path that can be supported at a club level and to get involved with it. It is also essential
>>to get companies like Vanguard behind the production and development of the boats.

I'm aiming for both with the F12. Mostly I want these boats to be cheap and light so they can easily be stacked or put on their sides to cut down on used Club spaces. Cheapness means that money involved in having the boats and the risk of damage is severly limited. Even the sails can be inexpensively home made by an amateur, even be developped by an amateur. I'm designing towards that ability specifically as to reduce the money footprint. Lots of the used concepts comes from landyachting experience, here lots of amateurs are succesful in building their own competitive rigs.

Additionally, I'm trying to maximize the potential profit margin under series production. Many of the F12 components become very inexpensive when massed into large single orders. Sail design is simple enough to be shipped off to Hong Kong (as the 20-ers are doing). I'm hoping this will make it very attractive for these companies to do the F12.

I'm adamently opposed to a Single Manufacturer setup though. F12 will be a One-Design class but then in the way the Tornado is.


>>Steve Clark who is an avid cat sailor, might be approachable with the right boat/concept. I do
>>not know him, but I would approach him if I believed in the class,concept and structure.

Such design talent will never go a miss. Still at this time, most of the designing is linked to getting the design just right for its expected marketing and usage. This is relatively unrelated to actual technical and optimal performance considerations.

Basically I'm trying to design the F12 as an integrated sailboat/marketing/production package.

I feel most other classes that have been launched fail on striking the right balance between these points.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118298
10/03/07 12:03 PM
10/03/07 12:03 PM
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... And another tangent, thanks Wouter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Back on topic, and I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, but we have no cats in the Junior Olympic program, maybe that's something to aim for?

I helped run a junior regatta this summer, which was part of the Junior Olympic Festival program (events happen around the country). There were four racing circles: two for Optis, one for Lasers (4.7 and Radial) and my circle for Club 420s. I was told that the Club 420 is considered the "elite" class. Now, how did THAT happen???

Also, it can NOT be a good thing that every year, the US SAILING Youth Championships excludes cats, we have to have a separate US SAILING Youth Championship for cats. Who does this make any sense to???

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118299
10/03/07 12:43 PM
10/03/07 12:43 PM
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Quote
Also, it can NOT be a good thing that every year, the US SAILING Youth Championships excludes cats, we have to have a separate US SAILING Youth Championship for cats. Who does this make any sense to???


NOT TRUE (any more)
The US Sailing Youth Championship will be held along with the others this year (2008). Unfortunatly, it's in January!
That's just too damn cold up here in the Northwest to get the kids any time on boats.

Last edited by Don_Atchley; 10/03/07 12:47 PM.

Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Don_Atchley] #118300
10/03/07 12:47 PM
10/03/07 12:47 PM
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I hope you're right, but what event are you talking about???

This is the event being promoted by US SAILING:

http://ussailing.org/championships/youth/youthchamp/

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118301
10/03/07 12:52 PM
10/03/07 12:52 PM
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Seattle,Wa
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This is the information I was given;

The tentative data on the Youth Multihull Champ
is
> back at Alamitos Bay Yacht Club, Jan 19-21, 2008 on the SL-16. This is
also
> the ISAF Youth World Qualifier. The Lasers, Laser Radials, 29er, RS-X
> boards will be held at the same event.

I'd much rather see it in San Fransisco in July.

It looks like I've got my events confused. You may be right about the separation.

Last edited by Don_Atchley; 10/03/07 12:53 PM.

Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Don_Atchley] #118302
10/03/07 01:00 PM
10/03/07 01:00 PM
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Well, as it turns out, there are multiple Youth championships listed on the US SAILING website, just like for adults: http://www.ussailing.org/Championships/ So, I guess to answer my own question, this makes sense to US SAILING... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In all reality, it seems the ISAF Youth qualifier is a separate event than the USSA "Youth Championships" event.

Thanks for pointing this out, this is fabulous news and we need to make this continue.

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118303
10/03/07 01:30 PM
10/03/07 01:30 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Don't miss the point.... the MNA's are looking for much more programatic effort...

A single event does not make a program !

Since I don't think we can ever measure in with what they want... I believe we must solve the problem with novel solutions.

things like a yacht club taking on the role of being a regional center for junior catamaran racing with charter boats for for junior teams that compete on a monthly basis. Teams would travel several hours for the events BECAUSE it was part of a program leading to elite sailing.

Any other novel ideas?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118304
10/03/07 02:03 PM
10/03/07 02:03 PM
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Quote

part of the Junior Olympic Festival program (events happen around the country). There were four racing circles: two for Optis, one for Lasers (4.7 and Radial) and my circle for Club 420s. I was told that the Club 420 is considered the "elite" class. Now, how did THAT happen???



I see a possible convergence here :

for mono's

opti => laser (4.7/radial) => 420

for cats

opti => F12 => nacra 500


The nacra and 420 share the same make-up of ideal crew weight. I intend to have the F12 do the same with respect to the laser (4.7/radial). And it makes sense to have both tracks make use of the opti for kids in the range 6-12.

The follow up for both mono's and cat to this junoir track will be obvious.

Do you think we butt-in into the junior programs this way ?

Anybody know what the 420's go for ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118305
10/03/07 02:09 PM
10/03/07 02:09 PM
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Mark, you're saying EXACTLY what I meant. I in no way, shape or form would think that just having the cats in one event would change anything. I was just pointing out that part of the path to Olympics in the US includes Junior Olympics, and we are missing the boat with no cats in the program.

Wouter, google is your friend: http://www.theboathouse.biz/boat_vanguard_price_list.asp

If we had the mother of all programs, fully sponsored cats at locations all over the country, that would be a ton of work to put together for a few people. But, it's a good place to start. The tough parts would be finding the sponsor, then finding the kids willing to sail in the class that only has 10 boats at the regatta.

EDIT: Here's the novel idea (just came to me...): The 10-boat program just might work if we can make it more "elite" than the existing mono paths. We can tie it into the mono world, rather than trying to replace it, which won't work with just 10 boats per location. The magic trick is, make a regatta (preferably a series of regattas) that requires qualification from other classes (cats or monos, doesn't matter, just need some rules). Make the prize for winning the regatta (or series) a college scholarship. This might be one of those "it's too obvious" ideas, but certainly could work, may entice sponsors and parents to get excited, etc. I am not aware of any dinghy events that currently offer scholarships, but if they exist, I have full confidence that someone here will point them out for me... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/03/07 02:38 PM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118306
10/03/07 02:34 PM
10/03/07 02:34 PM

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Guys, you know about this - http://www.nayma.org/ ?

I had forgotten about the SL16 traveling roadshow. Jim Young mentioned it at CRAW a few months back. Great idea if it works.

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118307
10/03/07 03:07 PM
10/03/07 03:07 PM
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ah... the USA JO's.

How is your ulcer going!!!! In my region... the JO's rotate through the YC with Junior programs. ...Many want to have done their service before the JO's get to their club... Its a 48 hour headache with all of the kids running around. The limitation to including cats is first and foremost space... both on the club grounds... and on the water. Next... its' kids and boats who want to do the event. Finally, its not like kids are beating down the door for junior only regattas either.

We run a junior only Hobie 16 regatta at MRYC for the past two years. Best we have been able to do is 3 boats .... I tried to lend boats to CBYRA 420 and laser sailors. ( I solved the liablity issue once and still not much success) (Hobie 16's cause that is the cat that I can get).. No luck.... you can't even give a boat away.... WHY... because the schedule is SO Packed within a 2 month summer window and the top sailors that you want are heading north to Buzzards or nationals, etc etc. Also... the junior sailing directors have lots of influence over kids.... they are not getting the atta boys from parents if their kids move off the track and race a catamaran. They are an unexpected road block... in their Sail instructors world... a parallel catamaran program for their top sailors is a PIA and since their is no college level program, it must be a waste of time in their view.

So... My take is... we need to find a spot in the schedule... that has a lot of kids racing and show them the flag.... then we need this elite program where the good kids to take a cracK at racing a H16.... THEN the peice that I could not see how to make happen .... a development path while they are in college.... Finally, If you are still in the game and good enough.... you hit the Olympic development program. (of course... in the win now mentality of US Sailing Olympic.... the bucks go to this last step... I understand the limits... but... It means that local volunteers will have to make the previous levels of the ladder work. I think the F12 project is spot on..

The time to get the kids is at the 420 level.... they trapeeze and are not as fragile. A small cat is right there. BUT... It is going to have to be progrm driven.

Finally, the reality is... What 5 cats can you keep together ... At the regional level... It will be what you can get your hands on and keep going for a couple of years. SL16's would be ideal for 14 years old and up... BUT .... Hobie 16's no chutes is A GREAT alternative to nothing.

Still banging my head against the wall... one day I will break something...

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #118308
10/03/07 03:18 PM
10/03/07 03:18 PM
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No ulcer (yet)... Art's been at this forever and hasn't completely cracked the nut either, although he's way ahead of us (he has put fleets of boats together).

Well, like I said, if the carrot is a college scholarship, that MIGHT help, but it's like anything else. If we show up with a bunch of boats, we're basically stealing away talent, not adding numbers to the game. One could argue that this is what got non-Hobies in trouble at Hobie regattas... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

We really need to start kids on cats, not pull mono sailors away. That's a sure way to make sure we don't get invited.

In reference to your other points, if we are going to have a "program" that is taken seriously to support the Olympic multihull (the whole point of this thread, right?), then cats HAVE to be in the JO program.

Up here, there are quite a few kid-only regattas. There are tons of parent and coach boats to keep the adults busy. When youth and adult events are mixed, it's somewhat chaotic, and I don't think the kids benefit.

And, our JO regatta was 72 hours of kid control... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118309
10/03/07 03:47 PM
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We really need to start kids on cats, not pull mono sailors away. That's a sure way to make sure we don't get invited.


You think that this is an issue?.... I don't see kids having the same passion for the "class"... eg I am a 420 sailor.... Parents ??? Yes...... they want to get in the "right program" (Tell me to buy this boat... go here.... support kid.... fill out college application.... DONE) I don't see any young adult going back to a 420...
(lasers are the only single hander in the game).

We sell this as CROSS TRAINING.... the notion is well supported by US Sailing. They are not campaiging a cat for the summer....

My notion is that we need a yacht club with space to park 10 of Wouter's cheap cats. the catsailors of the club commmit to keeping these things running. Once a month... 3 events a season... they run an invitational event for the region's elite junior sailors.

You pull out the cats at the end of the intro junior sailing class at the club. ... give the kids a taste..... Tell em... they need to join the advanced program and qualifiy there to sail the cat.. The boats GO to the regiona. JO's. but kids OUTSIDE your region come down to compete. your regonal kids are on their laser or 420.

You need one of these centers in a region.

They feed sailors into the US sailng Youth events... the Hobie 16 junior events, etc etc.

Thoughts???


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #118310
10/03/07 03:53 PM
10/03/07 03:53 PM
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The UKCRA’s view on the RYA’s submission to ISAF

By Nick Dewhirst, UKCRA 20:37 27 September 2007 Average vote 5 stars, by 8 people - Please log in or register to cast your vote.
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The RYA has made two submissions against catamarans for the forthcoming ISAF meeting, which is due to take place on 1st – 11th November. There was no multihull representative on the RYA committee and UKCRA was not consulted nor even informed of these submissions, which we believe are misguided.

Firstly, Submission 129-07 seeks to replace the Open Multihull Class with yet another dinghy class effective from the 2009 Event in the ISAF Youth Sailing World Championships.

This undermines the position of the Olympic catamaran class by denying it a junior trainer. There is a natural progression from junior dinghy classes to Olympic dinghy classes, so how can the RYA expect the highest level of performance to be generated by Olympic competitors in cats?

Secondly, Submission 103-07 lists the events it proposes for the 2012 Olympic Regatta. These include two windsurfing classes and six dinghy classes but no keelboat or catamaran classes. They are relegated to an eviction vote, where only two of four candidates will survive.

This runs counter to the objective of the Olympics to be as inclusive as possible. The differences among dinghies are much less than between dinghies, windsurfers, keelboats and catamarans. The Open Doublehanded Multihull class is the only sailing class that is open to both sexes. There are a large number of catamarans that are actively raced by both sexes. This Open class can equally be made Mixed Sex, like tennis doubles, if that is preferred.

If the secondary Olympic objective is spectator excitement, the Tornado is unequalled. That is not just our view, but also that of the RYA’s peer, US Sailing, who say “Renowned for its strict one-design racing, superb balance and ability to be raced at great speeds in open water, the Tornado has long been acknowledged as "an almost perfect boat." There is no boat of its size that can match a Tornado going to windward in extreme wave conditions.”

If the secondary objective is accessibility, there are thousands of Darts, Hobies and Formula 18 and hundreds of thousands of Hobie 16 worldwide. If it is cost, then let it be noted that equipment is only a small part of the total expense of an Olympic campaign. If there is a combination of secondary objectives, the Hobie Tiger (Formula 18) is one-design, two-sexed, exciting and reasonably priced.

This is not to argue in favour of any one type of catamaran in preference to any other, but simply to state that whatever the objectives there is a catamaran to meet the requirements while making the range of Olympic classes as inclusive as possible. It is just as possible to change the type of catamaran as has been done among windsurfers.

What is the motive of the RYA? If it is not this Olympic ideal, is it cynical gold-digging on the basis that the greater the haul of medals the greater the funding for its staff and operations? If so, let it be noted also that the UK has a record gold medal run unparalleled in recent international youth sailing events. The British youth catamaran teams have won more gold medals than any other British class in the last four ISAF Youth World Championships. Our prospects for multihull Olympic medals are therefore good, even if the RYA has been unusually unsuccessful in the past.

Whatever its real motives, the reasons stated by John Derbyshire’s RYA Committee lack conviction.

“A natural progression for sailors” - Surely the Olympics are not about feeder classes, but about excellence.
“Exciting high speed racing” - There is no dinghy faster than an Olympic Tornado or indeed several other catamaran classes.
“Sailing in supplied equipment” – Have they spoken to Hobie who have a long history of arranging World Championships on that basis?
“A major percentage of dinghy activity taking place throughout the world” – Please supply comparative statistics to support that assertion, which many international catamaran racers would dispute.
“Equal opportunity for men and women” – Why then exclude the only sailing event open to both men and women?
“Symmetry of events makes the sport easier to understand for the public” – What do they mean?
Assuming there are good motives for letting catamaran racers down by disenfranchising their sport from the Olympics, would it not have been courteous to let us down gently, by explaining their plans publicly rather than burying them somewhere in the depths of the ISAF website. After all our members account for a significant proportion of sailing community they represent. Is the RYA bureaucracy so far removed from the frontline that it does not know we exist? Do they think that catamarans do not count? That is certainly how it appears.

If it is a matter of counting, may we suggest that Mr. Derbyshire count the number of signatures on the e-petition, "Against the RYA's recent submissions to ISAF", at www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/?e, where he can also read their comments on why they think his committee has got it wrong. He has upset 800 sailors already in the first two days, and many still do not know about his plans.

At this stage the RYA position seems to be a minority view in ISAF. Our analysis of the submissions shows that only Great Britain and a former British colony specifically submit that catamarans be excluded, while those in favour include the two most successful Olympic nations in the world, Russia and the United States. However the question has been raised, so cat fans need to lobby their national sailing authorities. We therefore call on the RYA to demonstrate that it does not have an anti-catamaran bias, not just by explaining itself but also by amending its submissions.

Related Comments: 4 comments on this article

More Information:

YachtsandYachting.com Catamaran Page

Related Articles:


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #118311
10/03/07 04:09 PM
10/03/07 04:09 PM

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Quote
Also... the junior sailing directors have lots of influence over kids.... they are not getting the atta boys from parents if their kids move off the track and race a catamaran. They are an unexpected road block... in their Sail instructors world... a parallel catamaran program for their top sailors is a PIA and since their is no college level program, it must be a waste of time in their view.


This is so screwed up. What ever happened to kids sailing because it's the most fun thing they know? This system may (or may not) produce good outcomes in senior international competition, but I have trouble believing it's a way to create sustainable growth in participation in the sport in general.

(btw in case it not clear, not a dig at you in any way - just a comment on the system you described)

Last edited by MarkMT; 10/03/07 04:10 PM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118312
10/03/07 04:50 PM
10/03/07 04:50 PM
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You are telling me....

I expected... enthusiasm... support... how can we help at the Bay Junior Organizational meeting.... I got the worst reception that I could imagine... Later on... one of the women who has been making this happen for years and years explained the "facts of life" privately. She is very clear that in her opinion... Parents are driving this bus... and the bus's goal is a "unique college application" for a high profile institution.

Also to be fair... the schedule is really tight...
The junior only events happen during the week... perhaps a third of the kids stay for a weekend regatta in opti's or lasers.... the burn out factor is quite high... I don't have any kids... but from what I read... this is par for the course in sport with travel teams using up all of a kids life. Why would sailing be different?

So... i am looking for a work around.

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #118313
10/03/07 09:27 PM
10/03/07 09:27 PM
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It seems that a complete cat program from youth starter to olympics would take huge human resources and more money than is probably in the entire catamaran market already. There are established youth programs in place and catamarans could be considered one of the next logical steps in that program... Look at the Optimist success claims based on Olympic results http://www.optiworld.org/ioda-oldboys.html The Tornado class is one of the progressions from their point of view.

What about a coordinated marketing program that introduces Optimist sailors to catamarans as a logical step after their 470 stint? Then a more agressive campaign for the 470 sailors as they leave the parental/coach umbrellas. This could provide dual benifit of setting expectations of progression in Olympic classes but maybe more importantly attracting new skilled sailors into catamarans for lifetimes.


Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: TeamTeets] #118314
10/04/07 02:54 AM
10/04/07 02:54 AM
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Quote

What about a coordinated marketing program that introduces Optimist sailors to catamarans as a logical step after their 470 stint?


Well that is the general idea with the line-up suggested.


Quote

It seems that a complete cat program from youth starter to olympics would take huge human resources and more money than is probably in the entire catamaran market already.



I don't think it has to be. Afterall most classes in the line already exist. Nacra 500, F16, F18/A-cat, Tornado ; so no money is spend on creating this line-up. What needs to be done is coordinate the track between these classes, that is probably takes alot of manhours massaging and smooth talking objectionists but doesn't require any money.

Below the nacra 500 a gap is experienced apparently, so a design need to be found or a new design needs to be created here, together with building its class. That is more work and requires money, but luckily this needs to be a very simple and inexpensive cat anyway, that is if it is to furfill its role to max. So money investment might be very acceptable here. Currently the cost per new F12 (just as an example) is detailed to comes out at 3641 USD when the rudders, rudderstocks and the sail are bought from professional suppliers. These items are actually the two most expensive on the listing, homebuilding them saves about 900 USD and puts the overall cost to roughly 2500 USD. That is still not the same as the cost for a video game but much more attractively priced for a sponsor then a 10.000 boat. I think that it is within the reach of a dedicated club to raise the money to build several of these 12 footers.

I also strongly believe that this is an area why we mustn't look to closely at the obstacles (that will only demotivate) but rather at how one would make it happen if one was forced to do it with a gun to his head. It is often surprising how impossible things can be made to happen if you force yourself to make it happen "somehow !". A "can-do" mentality often does indeed produce results.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #118315
10/04/07 03:53 AM
10/04/07 03:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Typed up a full posting but that one got lost, so here the summery

Quote

My notion is that we need a yacht club with space to park 10 of Wouter's cheap cats.




F12's :

Can be stacked on top of one another. When placed in a rack like they do with lasers then 9 F12's assembled platforms will need a "space box" the size of : length x width x height = 6.5 x 4.0 x 1.5 mtr = about 22 x 13 x 4 feet. The F12 mast can be taken apart into elements no longer then 3.5 mtr in under 5 seconds.

A laser-1 rack needs a space-box of about 4.5 x 4.5 x 1.5 mtr = 15 x 15 x 4 feet.

A fully dissambled F12 will fit into its 4.0 x 1.0 x 0.5 mtr = roughly 13 x 3 x 2 feet transport box that will weigh about 30 kg itself. F12 plus its box will be just shy of 100 kg = 220 lbs. Fully assembling an F12 in 10 minutes or less is a design goal and I think that that can indeed be done. Stacking the F12's in their transport boxes will allow 8 combo's to be stored or transported in a "space box" of 4.0 x 2.0 x 2.0 mtr = 13 x 7 x 7 feet. Boats+trailer will still be under 1000 kg weight = 2200 lbs and can be pulled by a modest family car. 2 adults will be able to unload and assemble all 8 F12's so they are ready to sail in under a hour = 15 minutes per boat.

24 F12's in their transport boxes will fit inside a 40 foot container, shipment to anywhere in the world like this will cost about 300 USD per boat.

A 65 kg F12 (platform weigth = 50 kg) can be car topped on any given car as typically only 50 kg roof load capacity is garanteed. 65 kg is close enough to be save, also because there is ample proof of 61 kg laser hulls being car topped.

Detailed cost estimate puts a new F12 (no labour costs) at 3641 USD when you buy your sail and dotan rudders. If you make these yourself (not too hard to do) then 2500 USD is possible. I think that I'm able to replace ply by foam/glass for simple homebuilding as well. That is more durable and cheaper in the long run as high quality ply is increasingly difficult to source.

The F12 can take the standard laser-1 rig, it has the same surface area, luff length and mast height. The Centre Of Effort will be close enough to the intended F12 rig as well. However looks are important and the battened F12 rig is much more modern in apparence, trim and performance. See attached picture. Shown is a 5.5 sq. mtr. 4.7 mtr luff sleeved sail on a homemade aluminium mast. The intended F12 rig is just a scaled up version with the same surface area as the laser-1, as such it will be 7.00 sq. mtr by 5 mtr long luff. mast height will be 5.7 mtr. mast weight is just under 10 kg = 22 lbs

[Linked Image]

I'm getting a little off track in answering the "space" question, but I felt that this could be important data with respect to club space and required investment in building the class. That is if the overall discussion concludes that a craft like the F12 has a role to play in the youth programs

Wouter

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