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Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118256
10/01/07 11:53 PM
10/01/07 11:53 PM
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Thanks for the link Tom.

I'm curious what people think about how important youth cat sailing is to the health of competitive adult cat sailing. My completely subjective impression, unburdened by any real data, is that many cat sailors joined the sport from monohull sailing well after leaving their youth.


I actually started on a Scorpian and a keel boat that I do not remember, but got a MacGregor 14 with my cousin Scott at the age of 14. Still sail Lasers, a Hunter 27, a Tornado and my A.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Luiz] #118257
10/01/07 11:57 PM
10/01/07 11:57 PM
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The mulihull equivalent to the 29er would be a scaled down Tornado. The F16 or F14 could certainly be marketed as mini-Tornados but we would still miss the multihull equivalent to an Optimist.

I see it as a small one design cat powered by a simple rig, able to beat an Optimist in some key features:

-safety
-simplicity
-rigging time
-beauty
-price (if possible) and
-performance ( but not too fast, just enough to comfortably beat an Optimist. Parents prefer toys that keep kids within a manageable distance.)

An F12 could be the answer.

Lastly, both the Opti and the 29er are one designs. This gives a perception of "lower price and lower maintenance cost to remain competitive and get a reasonable resale value". We know that in the long run it isn't true, but the key for sales is "perception".


I agree, an F-12 or the one design equivelant. I thought that Wouter was well along the way with a F-12 design.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118258
10/02/07 02:17 AM
10/02/07 02:17 AM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
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[/quote]

.Quote: whereas the RYA currently see the Hobie 16 as the youth cat. And the ISAF evidently have endorsed the SL16 (which whatever else you might think about it probably validates the view that the H16 is not the best youth choice) end of Quote.

The ISAF World Youth Multihull listed for 2008 is the SL-15 (Sl-16), for 2009 it currently the Hobie 16 with spin.

Caleb Tarleton

PS have you all signed the petition?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: windswept] #118259
10/02/07 04:44 AM
10/02/07 04:44 AM
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I am well along the way of that design, indeed. And yes, the more I think about it the more I believe it needs to be a strict one-design setup. The F in the name F12 will just refer to the allowance to source your regulated parts of independent suppliers. I don't want to make is Single Manufacturer One Design. Basically the 29-er and opties are set up in the same way. I probably regulate the sail shape in detail as well. Not that I believe that is necessary or wise but because of "parent perception"

I believe the F12 is not the answer to all but it may well be the catamaran alternative to Opties and laser-1's.

I personally believe that not any single design is the answer, but that the right combo of organisation and a design that is well suited to gettting the organisation going is the key. Cheap but good looking, safe but performant and well behaved but simple in construction are the three key points the design should adhere to in my opinion. With that setup an small organisation can be started and on those selling points the boats can be marketed to the parents and the kids simultaniously. Most often the parent wishes diverge from the kids desires.

F12 in such a setup can only play the role of "get them young and hooked" and then as a feeder class into "real" cats like Nacra 500, F16/F18/A-cat, Tornado. That is the only viable route that I see an organisation like the RYA appreciate. I'm sorry to say I don't see the Wave, the Sl16 or the Hobie 16 is this line-up. SL16 will be replaced by the Nacra 500 because that is just so much better as a design. They are selling like hot cakes overhere, SL16 really isn't. The Hobie Dragoon may still have a role to play. I know this may upset several people but I think we must take a critical (and sometimes harsh) look at the situation.


My ideal path would indeed by like this

F12 : key target group of 12 years of age till 16, but possible to remain sailing till much older especially women. Daddy's car toppable play boat (as laser is now).

Nacra 500 : the doublehander boat from 16 years of age and daddies recreational cat. With spi it is better then the SL16.

F16 : As soon as a serious crew gets up to 120 kg combined, basically this means from 16 years onwards. Daddy's versatile recreational racer (both 1-up and 2-up mode). Feeder to both F18 and A-cat.

F18, A-cat : As the real training ground and racing classes for crews up from 140 kg (65 kg) ; 18 years and older. F18 as feeder class to Tornado. A-cat being the end stop for 1-up.

Tornado : Olympic slot.


This would be the equivalent of :

Opti/topper/Splash/Laser 4.7, laser radial and laser adult (F12 at 3000 Euro)
420, 470, 29-er (Nacra 500 = at 10.500 Euro)
29-er / RS600 / musto skiff (F16 = at 14.500 Euro)
49-er (F18 c.q A-cat/Tornado = at 18.000 and 25.000 Euro)

I think with such a line up we can really provide a comparable path to what the mono's have. The other halve of the story is then to organise such a setup into a organisation that is supported internationally by the cat sailors. With "try-out" programs and shared events where all 5 classes (except Tornado) are present. That will be the really hard part, but I think it can be done. Then the goal is to get all 5+tornado classes to refer to eachother in those specific roles and thus close the circle and present an unified concept and growth track to the outside world. This should not be too hard to do, won't cost anything.


With respect to the designs, those classes except for the F12 exist already and are sufficiently succesful to be assured continued existance. With the Nacra 500, one is even assured ample cheap second hand boats (BIG problem with the SL16). All the rest are self supportive. Nacra 500 is also significantly cheaper, by about 20%.

The F12 can be created, it will cost less then 4000 USD and perform as good as a Hobie 14 and the doublehanded 29-er. Setup time under 10 minutes and it'll weight under 65 kg. Ideal weight 60 kg (so women will love it), but with a range from 40 kg to 80 kg. 80 kg means two kids double handing will still have fun. Boat will carry alot more weight but not in a performance oriented way. It will be about 20% faster then the adult Laser-1 version and 30 % faster then the kiddies laser 4.7.

The intent of the F12 is to throw these boats around, maybe with some soda-pop sponsorship and spoil the young brats. Once you have gone fast at 12 years of age, you will never look at the slower dinghies in the same way again. As a result they will look at the next step up in cats (nacra 500/F16). Getting them at age 16 or 18 is too late as then they will have experienced their formative years in the dinghies classes and have made friends c.q. formed loyalties there.

That is my take on the situation.

I think we can make this work, it may not be perfect for everybody and I'm sure things could be made perfect here and there but this is what we as amateurs can MAKE to work with the minimal required effort and financial input. And these two considerations are of paramount importance. A perfect but unobtainable setup is as good as none. But we need to together, we ALL need to work together to make it happen and have a decent shot at succes.

I guess I'm asking for you guys feedback and possible involvement.

So what do you think.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/02/07 05:17 AM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118260
10/02/07 07:27 AM
10/02/07 07:27 AM

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Lots of good thoughts Wouter. Two questions - you mention that the Dragoon may have a role to play, but it's not clear to me how it fits into your thinking about the F12. I don't know the boat at all but it's close to 12' so I'm just curious about why it wouldn't meet the requirements you have in mind for the entry class.

Secondly why do you think it is that the Nacra 500 is doing better than the SL16? Again I don't know either boat, but it's odd that Nacra are actually building/marketing the SL16 in the US. Maybe just hedging, based on the ISAF selection? Also you say the 500 will replace the SL16, but is that feasible if the ISAF don't change their stance?

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118261
10/02/07 07:52 AM
10/02/07 07:52 AM
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Wouter

Im actually agreeing with all of your points... and nearly your choice of boats.

Then all we need is a cat friendly MNA,...... but how do we convince the parents to let their kids go down this route. Personally when you see the racing in Opti that is one tough market to crack.... suppose the other thought as to why they stay racing in monos is what do the friends do. If all your mates who you enjoyed racing opti with move into say laser 4.7 then the chances are you as a parent will go and get a 4.7 esp if they used to beat them.... then buy a radial rig full rig and for dear old dad a rooster 8.1, Big rig for a laser,all these rigs on 1 hull. Look at the money saved! And their gentlemen I think is the problem. Why spend the money on a cat when a laser will satisfy most of your sailing. As for the 29er think as cat sailors we should look at their marketing and LEARN how has a fleet that is less than 7 yo has got so popular.

Last edited by stuartoffer; 10/02/07 07:55 AM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118262
10/02/07 08:24 AM
10/02/07 08:24 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

you mention that the Dragoon may have a role to play, but it's not clear to me how it fits into your thinking about the F12.



It doesn't. F12 is oriented significantly differently then the Dragoon. The F12 is far more the equivalent of the laser-1, topper and splash while the dragoon is really much more the equivalent of the 29-er and 420.

Quote

I don't know the boat at all but it's close to 12' so I'm just curious about why it wouldn't meet the requirements you have in mind for the entry class.


Basically the Dragoon is a scaled down F18 to kids format, it comes with nearly all the drawbacks of such an involved boat. It is by no means as accessible as the optimist or laser dinghies (and spin-offs like the topper and splash). It is a full-on double hander with a spinnaker and requires dedicated crews that suit the boat.

I feel that no kids goes straight into the 29-er class, they start out sailing on easier and less complex boats. Only when the kid has proven his determination then the parents will consider a more expensive and involved boat. For these reasons I don't really consider the Dragoon as an entry boat for young sailors. I fear that for the above reasons kids will still start out in opties and splashes and laser and then be "brainwashed" into disliking cats and prefering 29-ers and 49-ers, because that is the way things are in mono world.

I actually like the Dragoon but it is a bit of neither. It is not entry enough and you grow out of it too soon. Also I'm sorry to say that it is made by Hobie. They have a talent for not picking the right colours and styling. I'm also not too sure if alot of crews are actually sailing that boat now, it doesn't seem to be really popular and its international presence is negligiable outside of France and the directly surrounding European states. As such is it much less well positioned then say the Nacra 5.0 and 500's.

In its race version it is not cheap. 2004 price was 7500 Euro's. That is cheaper then the 29-er. But no were near as inexpensive as the splash (3800 Euro). The splash is an smaller, more modern and lighter version of the laser. It features a more modern rig (more rectangular) and it is designed specifically for 12-16 year olds.

http://www.splash-boat.com/en/sales_info/dealers.htm

Again no kid at 12 gets into 29-ers straight away, they pass through the entry class like the splash first which feed into the 29er.

Another thing to consider is that the Splash organisation (and it is an large and ISAF recognized class) offers boats to active 12 years old sailors, for almost no fee at all. They can probably do that because the boats are so inexpensive and hardly anything can break because there aren't sensitive items like spinnakers on them. We can never do that with Dragoon as they are too expensive and use to much components like ratchet blocks and spinnakers. But the F12 is suited to such setups. Also the splash weights 75 kg (hull = 52 kg) and the mast is collapsable, that means it is truly car toppable and easily stored. The Dragoon isn't.

Maybe the F12 can be the feeder into the dragoon.

I still wrote that it may have a role to play.


Quote

Secondly why do you think it is that the Nacra 500 is doing better than the SL16?


Basically the Nacra 500 is faster, cheaper and has a much higher international presence, mostly because of its very similar predessor Nacra 5.0. In ALL other aspects the two boats are the same. Why go through the trouble of establishing a whole new class when you have such an alternative.

I haven't seen the Sl16's myself but comments by others seem to suggest that the finishing is not its strongest point. I have seen the Nacra 500's (there are already 5 of them at my club alone) and the finishing of those is top notch.

Forgive me for saying so but SL16 appears to be French and certainly Dutch sailors are not attracted to it. I now the Spanish are not embracing it and statements from F16 sailors in Asia suggest it is not accepted there. And we can continue this list with Australia, USA and the like while the Nacra 5.0 and 500 are getting interest its seems. At my club the nacra 500's are quickly gethering. The buyers prefer these.

Maybe also because the SL16 is advertised to much as a youth boat. In the end its is daddy who buys the boat because he wants to sail as well. The SL16 concept is just not right in this respect.

There can well be other reason I not know about, I'm sure there are, but SL16 is not happening from what I can tell.


Quote

Also you say the 500 will replace the SL16, but is that feasible if the ISAF don't change their stance?


I regret saying it but I think that I'm convinced that it is better to ignore ISAF as much as you can. They don't drive stuff or start new things, the are followers. If some group of enthousiasts make a particular class into a succes then they are right on top of it to make it ISAF recognized, but they won't do much on their own initiative. It has all the outward signs of a clocked up bureaucracy. Not a good place to start new initiatives or change the status-quo. Look at how the youth calender is setup now ; 2008 = youth worlds on SL16 but in 2009 it is on Hobie 16's again ! What a BS is that ? No-one is going to buy the SL16 at 14.000 for one year. This way the association with ISAF and its machination is rather the kiss of death.

In line with this reasonign I don't think it make much difference at all what ISAF prefers. The won't make it happen themselves, they won't help out in a meaningful way and they just wait for other people to do the work for them. If the Nacra 500 is better at that then they will just switch over in say 5 to 10 years time.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/02/07 08:41 AM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: stuartoffer] #118263
10/02/07 08:50 AM
10/02/07 08:50 AM
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Indeed so stuart,

We have nothing as cats now and the mono have everything lined up and sorted out. It will be an uphill struggle for sure, but not without opportunities.

I cna make a long post about this with idea's but maybe it is more effective to just point out that a similar scene was present when the F16's were launched. We had the Hobie 16's, the F18's and the A-cats, what more does a cat sailor want ? Still, we managed to find unique selling points and made the class grow. Sure it is difficult at first, but it can be done if you are smart about how you approach the problem both technically and in the way of branding/marketing.

Same can be said for the 29er. We already had the 420's right?

With respect to the laser, the different rig sizes are needed because only a 80 kg person can hold down the full rig in any significant wind, due to is very narrow width. The F12 is much wider and even light kids will be able to prevent the 7 sq. mtr. rig from capsizing. But even then, we can also have different size rigs on the F12 is we want to (but I don't think it to be necessary)

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118264
10/02/07 08:52 AM
10/02/07 08:52 AM
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Wouter, your "ideal path" is 6 YEARS too late. In the US, kids can start on Optis at age 6 (and I can't find a rule that says they can't start earlier):

http://www.usoda.org/index.cfm?id=153082&fuseaction=browse&pageid=107

And I really don't know why anyone wants to compete with the 29er. I've been to youth regattas with hundreds of boats and no 29ers. It's just not a big class here. RYA alluded to that as well in their submission.

A kid can sail an Opti from age 6 to 16. Most stop sooner because they get too big (or bored). The next boat up is either a Laser (as mentioned above, several rigging options) for singlehanders, or a Club 420 for doublehanders.

The Laser can be sailed into retirement. The Club 420 can be sailed in high school and college programs. They both have huge fleets.

Having said all of that, I maintain that it's not about the boats. These classes are the accepted boats at most yacht clubs, the infrastucture, convenience, and sheer numbers of which is quite formidable.

EDIT: More to the point of why the boat doesn't matter: there have been a ton of new boats introduced that have flopped (Escape comes to mind). Look at the number of models on Vanguard's website. The "establishment" of the clubs is the real strength. And, say what you want about Hobie 16s, they are still far and away the most popular racing catamaran in the world.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/02/07 09:16 AM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118265
10/02/07 09:23 AM
10/02/07 09:23 AM

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Mike, are you saying we should aim for kids to start their sailing experience in cats? I'm not sure that's realistic. I think parents and kids are probably happier starting in something slow and stable. An entry level cat can be a step up once kids are comfortable on the water and wanting to experience a little more speed.

I do agree with you about the important role of the organizational infrastructure, not to mention committed volunteers. But the suitability of the boat has to play some kind of role. Otherwise the new youth classes that have developed in the last 10 years would never have happened.

One other thing that I don't think has been raised - should an entry level cat be a single hander or double? Seems that a lot of under-16 monohull sailing is done solo.

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118266
10/02/07 09:31 AM
10/02/07 09:31 AM
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Yes Mike, there are indeed alot of obstacles that need to be taken. Still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try or give up all hope for succes.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: ] #118267
10/02/07 09:35 AM
10/02/07 09:35 AM
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Quote

One other thing that I don't think has been raised - should an entry level cat be a single hander or double? Seems that a lot of under-16 monohull sailing is done solo.


I say.

Single hander, but with ability to doublehand it through the initial stages, hopefully with another kid and possibly with parent.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118268
10/02/07 09:38 AM
10/02/07 09:38 AM
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Sorry if it sounds like I'm in a panic, I'm not. Unfortunately, it's just not as easy as designing a new boat.

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118269
10/02/07 09:45 AM
10/02/07 09:45 AM
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Wouldnt a doublehander be cheaper? (Since you only need half the boats).

What is probably most important is at what stage do young sailors decide they want to move on to a more high-performance craft? (Dragoon/29er etc).

Maybe we should be having this conversation on a 29er forum and ask them what influenced their decision process?

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118270
10/02/07 09:53 AM
10/02/07 09:53 AM
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Quote

it's just not as easy as designing a new boat.



In that case I think you have missed the key points.

We are actually arguing that a clear track of growth needs to be formed in the catsailing scene, much like the opti, Splash/Topper, laser, 29-er, 49-er. That is what national sailing associations appear to want and find lacking in cats.

This means we first need to find a listing of boat types to use as building blocks for such a clear growth track. This is relatively easy.

Then the critical part comes and that is organising all these classes into a unit that supports the roles of the others in this track and stimulates growing through the ranks. This then needs to be expanded with special youth programs, hopefully with sponsorships, and when we are done we can reapproach our national sailing organisations and provide them with a fully devellopped track for cat sailing. That is what they need to make our case on the international level. At least they say so. But we even need to provide them with this even if they are just shoving us off. Only then can we corner them into a position where they are without excuses. Right now we are too easy baited and discarded. It doesn't even take much effort to talk our protests down like the RYA did recently. We have no position of power or influence and that needs to change.

But we have to start at the bottom and that means selecting the boats that will become part of this track and possibly create a new design if a sufficiently large gap is discovered. Without a proper sequence of "steps-up" ; all other organisational efforts will be largely useless. Mostly because the National sailing associations will in the end just refer to the total lack of true linkage to the Olympic Tornado and discard all efforts in one major sweep or the arm. And honestly, they will not be very wrong in doing so either.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/02/07 09:57 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Tony_F18] #118271
10/02/07 09:58 AM
10/02/07 09:58 AM
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Tony,

Would you be so kind to execute your own proposal ?

It would indeed provide some valuable information.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/02/07 10:00 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118272
10/02/07 10:29 AM
10/02/07 10:29 AM
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There are so many cat designs already on the market already, I'm just not seeing another design as the answer. And, I don't know how many ways to say this, the 29er is not our primary problem.

Wouter, the last thing I have time for is to get into an argument with you, but you completely contradicted yourself and bolster my case in the message above. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, you say I'm missing the point because I said designing the boat(s) isn't the important part.

Then, you say "Then the critical part comes" and admit it's not as easy as just designing the boat, that the infrastructure has to be built, sold to the MNAs, etc. This is what I've been saying the whole time: the infrastructure is where they are killing us, not the boat design.

And to MarkMT's question, I don't think it's unrealistic, from a technical point of view, to have kids start on cats. Cats are inherently MORE stable than monohulls, and Optis flip all the time. The design problem is, most (all?) cats are designed with too much sail area for a 6-year old to handle. If you don't start them on cats, why would they switch later?

I still say that even if we had really cheap, easy to sail cat, we'd get nowhere against the mono programs, without a massive paradigm shift. If we can get high schools and colleges to have cat racing, that might be a start.

I am extremely interested in this because I have a 10-month old, and I'm trying to figure out where this is ultimately heading. I'd love him to be racing cats at 6 years old (as a skipper). The only problem is, there's nothing less technical than a Hobie 16 racing in any sufficient numbers, and those are raced by adults or older teens.

So, I may have to buy an Opti...

Mike

Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118273
10/02/07 10:53 AM
10/02/07 10:53 AM
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Talking about contradicting oneself


Quote

There are so many cat designs already on the market already, I'm just not seeing another design as the answer.

...

The only problem is, there's nothing less technical than a Hobie 16 racing in any sufficient numbers, and those are raced by adults or older teens.

So, I may have to buy an Opti...



But seriously, you are looking for this boat http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy

Last edited by Wouter; 10/02/07 10:55 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: Wouter] #118274
10/02/07 10:56 AM
10/02/07 10:56 AM
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I knew that would come up... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: Wait, you did it again!!!!! I said: "There are so many cat designs already on the market already, I'm just not seeing another design as the answer." You took issue with that, then you point to the design that proves my point:

"But seriously, you are looking for this boat http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy"

That is a nice boat that might do the trick. It would be best with the small main and no jib. It's still a bit bigger and more powerful than the Opti, but close enough. Now, how do we get that into the yacht clubs and cats into colleges?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/02/07 11:14 AM.
Re: RYA drops cats from Olympics [Re: brucat] #118275
10/02/07 12:03 PM
10/02/07 12:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

Now, how do we get that into the yacht clubs and cats into colleges?



Not many 6 year olds in colleges. So the cat for the colleges needs to be a different type. What do you think is the best cat design for that ?

What do you think is the best approach to get that design accepted in colleges ?


Quote

That is a nice boat that might do the trick. It would be best with the small main and no jib. It's still a bit bigger and more powerful than the Opti, but close enough.



What is the underlaying principle you are after here. Do you feel that the choice in sailing career is most dominantly made at 6 years or there abouts ? That is to say in comparison to 12 years of age ?

Pardon me, but what do you mean exactly by "might do the trick" how do you think can the chances for success be increased, would a smaller platform do it ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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