Hi David

Like I tried to explain in my previous post, the problems I have with "no-drops" are several:

1) I want to see the best sailor at an event win the event. This is what allowing a dropped race helps to achieve. Not allowing a drop just opens up an opportunity for an also-ran to take the prize and I can't see any value in winning an event in that way.

2) Like I said before, with no drops any disadvantage suffered by anyone that is not their fault should become the subject of a redress protest - otherwise we are not seeing a fair result. I would hate to see that kind of process evolving.

3) It also concerns me that this is being implemented by clubs because they saw it in Australian Sailing and "everyone else is doing it" without thinking through the consequences or doing it properly (ie. putting it in the SIs).




Darryn was not a DSQ he was a DNF, which would have been dropped. Even a DSQ is still dropped unless the reason is serious (fair sailing, bringing the sport into disrepute, pumping, or caught by a black flag).




So the benefit of having no drops is that it gets one boat to the line in one race, in the rare event that that boat has totally thrashed the others. How could this be significant? And who sails a race not "on their game" - "I'm allowed a drop so I think I'll just not try in this race"?

The no-drop system is actually counter productive in this case as someone in the running to win a Mozzie titles wouldn't have any incentive to continue racing if they DNF'd a race early in the series. "Go out and beat everyone for the rest of the series just to pick up a 4th or 5th overall - why bother"?





That comparison doesn't work - but it does help me make another point . If you have a cumulative points scoring system where 1st gets the most points down to 16th where you get no points then you don't need a dropped race. If you don't finish in the first 15 then you get no points and you simply go out for the next race and try again. In the sailing system, if you don't finish you get a huge penalty - thats why the drop is there. How would everyone react if Stoner had a minor breakdown that put him out of a race early in the season and that was the end of the season for him! I think there might be some complaints.

The dropped race is not an arbitrary idea that got into our scoring system for no reason. It's there to make the scoring system work. Without it we will get results that don't reflect the performance of the sailors, and that is a bad thing for the sport.

Hi David

Sorry, I forgot to reply to this part



I'm not sure why the rumour mill has anything to do with this as the Notice of Race has been on the NMCC web site since mid-August. No need to listen to rumours!

Yes it does say there "could" be twelve races maximum, but I can give you a "real" rumour that this will very likely be revised to 10 shortly with two of the back-to-back pairs being replaced by long races.

If we had run the full 12 races there would have been 2 drops, otherwise only one drop.

I prefer having drops, makes me go for the win and take some risks.

Different sailing venues have their own individual characteristics such as the large number of white round bouys in the shallow water in front of the club at Barmera, only one of those was the end of the start/finish line but which one? Hard to tell when you cant see the other end of the line as it is obscured by boats.

It is difficult for sailors from other clubs to quickly work out the local rules and characteristics that we become acustom to sailing at the same venue week in week out.

Maybe, in the interest of maximum participation drops should be considered for large regattas.

Any chance of seeing the race times for Opening day online?

Thanks
Darryn
1782

My 2 cents worth.

Drops are good.

There are many sailors in all classes, that don't have the boat of their dreams,
don't get to sail anything like as often as they would wish and often suffer
calamity <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> in a race here or there by virtue of the aforementioned constraints.

I am a regular back of the fleet dweller still coming to terms with the fact that
two hulls are better than one. I am always optimistic, that the next race will be better.
I race for fun. I race to learn from those that are better than me.

Knowing I can drop a "stuff up" keeps me keen to do better for the rest of a series and
encourages me to try things rather than play it safe. Whilst it's unlikely that any silverware
will end up on my mantle piece, in my book,8th over 9th is a victory worth having.<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Drops keep me in the game and the fleet is bigger by one, whenever I go out.<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's the majority at the back that highlight just how good the winners are.<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cheers.

P.S. Tim...The Vic web site looks great with its new style.

Glad you like it Simon. I had some help from a colleague who's into Photoshop and has a good eye for design. He's busy setting up a new photo-sharing site at www.flickaway.com right now (that's my beta page). You can see some similarities - particularly the colours.

Hey Tim,
Web page looks great. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Tim,

There was nothing personal in my post....so hope you did not take it that way.

Personally I have no problem either way but prefer the No drop way....maybe a throw back to motor racing days but it is my preference...and i for sure am not too often in the front of the fleet either.

And if I chose to sit a race out then so be it...and the same for a stuff up, but then I am trying to sail these days for fun.

The times should be available from LBYC, but I am back at school again so I can't do much from here...

And likewise....new page looks great.

See you at Warnambool...

David

Hi David



Not at all. I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss the no-drop idea. I feel very strongly that a lot of clubs are just following a popular trend without really thinking through the consequences, and as a result the overall placings are less meaningful.

Actually I wouldn't mind the bike racing system. It would work just as well and there is then no need for drops. You can still have the case where the winner doesn't have the sail the last race though. I wonder why sailing always uses a low-points system - tradition?

The Etchells had no drops but the Australian Sailing article said it was to reduce the aggressive sailing that they obviously had a problem with. I wouldn't want to have to pay the repair bill after an Etchells prang!

I think the Olympic events are doing no-drops now - presumably to try and add a bit of drama to an event that the world ignores (well the media ignore it at least - that's another topic in itself).

I read the no drops for the Olympics was to simplify the scoring system so the media and general public could understand the sailing results but I just did some more research and it appears the one drop is back in place.
http://www.sailing2008.org/newsinfoEN/4399.aspx

Olympics also has medal race with only the top ten sailing the last race and scoring double points. Can still have the situation where the leaders going into the medal race are more then 20 points clear of the rest of the fleet so only have to score a 10th to win. Seems unlikely but happened recently in ISAF games at Cascai (spelling?) 470men. So they have drops, a medal race and less boats on the water in the last race in this case <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

Darryn
1782

Thanks Darryn .

I guess the organisers will try anything to get someone to take an interest. Good luck to them.

Tim,

Happy to sit down with you and see if we can nut out a system that is similar to what the bikes and other forms of motor sport run....and if everyone...or at least the majority are happy it is as easy as putting the system to be used in the sailing instruction....
After all...it has been used in other series too....some of the traveller series to ensure that people travel and just don't discard the longest distance from home..
If it eleiminates the possibility of draws, put all the boats on the water and is easy to follow for those sitting on the shore....and of course the media....well i am all for it, but then, I just enjoy sailing these days.

David
'Banh Sidhe'

Here's the bike system from Wikipedia



It wouldn't be hard to apply this to a few previous events and see how it comes out.

Tim,

I would be interested to see the results too and I believe it would be easy enough to apply.....a DSQ, DNF and DNC would attract 0, just as any place after 15 would....

Certainly food for thought

David
'Banh Sidhe'

Similar to bonus points scoring system which benefits first 6 finishers but the bike system benefits the first 4, maybe that reflects number of competitive teams in bike racing? Bike system isn't much good if more then 15 boats race in the fleet, could adapt it by starting with a higher number.
Darryn
1782