Really ! lean something new every day !

I just assumed (always a bad move) that because (it appears) easier to use it would not be lighter.

You are not going to safe 18 lbs when going from an Alu F16 mast to an carbon F16 mast. The masts made by stealth marine and other for the F16 have a tip weight when rigged of at least 5.25 kg and that is before any tip weight is added. This is in line with the carbon mast weighting overall at mimimum 11.5 kg (25 lbs). This was by the way the lightest F16 mast weighted, several others were much closer to the required min 6 kg tipweight. It was also a pure singlehanding mast, if I remember correctly.

38 lbs for the Alu superwing sounds about right, but this surely included the proctor spreader arms and a mainsail halyard, spi halyard and spi gate. Of course the A-cat mast at 20 lbs doesn't have any of that. So we must add that as well before subtracting the two numbers and finding out what kind of weight can be saved overall. I also hear some Blade F16 sailors are sailing with stock 6 mm dyneema as spi halyard that is far too much as well. 4 mm is enough, even for bare hands. But I'm getting of track her.

Basically the maximal weight savings that can be had are limited to 5 kg = 11 lbs when all is said and done. Not 18 lbs = 8 kg. The tip weight often limits this a little bit more.

I don't think 5000 USD is a realistic price for an F16 carbon mast. Truth be told, when I inquired about having an alu mast replaced by a carbon blank the quote I got resulted in 1500 Euro price difference. Even at todays exchange rate that would only put the price ex shipping at 2200 USD. That leaves a very big chunk of budget for shipping. Stealth Marines quote was even less. At the time I still opted for the alu mast though, because as you know I like aluminium !

Wouter

Mostly because all the other VWM Blades were sailed doublehanded and had more gear on board. Hans also sails with a few modifications like dyform rigging, carbon boom and carbon spi pole, I believe. The remainder is caused by the weight difference between the carbon and alu masts. Hans boat is a 2007 VWM Blade and the others of the some production series were around 110 kg in 2-up. Basically this means a 6 kg difference in weight. Not too unrealistic with a carbon mast, absolutely no jib gear and some small mods here and there.

But like you I don't really understand why there was a similar difference between your Stealth and Hans Blade. Afterall, your boat is a fully optimized singlehander as well with carbon boom etc. There shouldn't have been 8 kg difference there.

Wouter

I am not too familuar with the with the Blade or Stealth, however have raced the Taipan 4.9s and also F16s including in perhaps the first F16 event in the world.... Before the prototype Blade even came out of a mold.

I have raced the Taipan at 160 kg down to to 130 and wilst we performed ok at the upper end of the weight range, the lower end was a BIG advantage, particlularly downwind. We have as you may know, a very competitive Taipan fleet in Oz. The quickest 4.9s getting are those with the light weight, very talented youth on board with a few light weight old salts. It has more to do with the hull design and its displacement, then the power of the rig. There comes a point where it is displacing too much and you will be best served with less weight and power.

I do not dispute the fact that the Viper is in no mans territory as far as the weight goes. The Viper looks like a quick boat and shold be competitve based on the rig development that will go into it and the hull development which trickled down from the Capricorn, however would be better served at min weight. This will require the use of exotics, something Greg is trying to stear away from, and will drive the price of the boat up. The question is will people fork out the extra $$$$ for the reduction in weight. I am sure this is something Greg has thought long and hard about before putting the boat into production. I personaly don't think he has made the right decision, but time will tell.

It is no secret that I have now got my boat on the market and plan to get an F16. The Blade looks good, the Viper would be tempting if it was lighter, however it looks like I may pick up a 4.9 and have a tinker with it.

Got told an interesting thing at the club on Sunday.

For 2-ups:
Blade on texel is 102
Taipan 4.9 (with the original Australian sailplan and the additional of F16-sized spi) is 103
Viper is 104. (using weight of 125kg)

Now at an F16 event, handicaps get thrown out the window and it is first across the line for the 2-ups. But food for thought if at a club event.

As for the Viper TA, it is a mini Capricorn. Exact same set-up with the ropes/systems and all that. Main diff is that it doesn't have those cutouts at the stern on the bottom of the hull, but does have the corner at the top cutoff to help with trapezing with the kite up.

Will take one out for a sail at the end of Nov once the NE monsoon kicks-in to see how it performs. Hopefully the Blade will be back in action by then, and a few of the Taipans will come out as a direct comparion between the 3 designs.

I am a bit surprised about the fact that everybody is talking the exotic materials. The hulls from the boat i sailed are normal standard build hulls with no exotics like carbon in it. The boat of Geert ( 109,7 kg 2007 Blade ) is a normal glass material build boat with alu mast, so this boat is only 2,7 kg above minimum weight ( 2 up ).
The Aussie Blade is build with Kevlar with an Alu mast and weighted 111 kg , but this was the first boat from the mould, so the builders did a great job because everybody knows the first boat is always a bit heavier then further on in the production process.

Regards,
Hans

Hi Steve,

not wanting to talk to personaly about peoples weight, but I think Willy and Petra are fastest sloop Taipan? I don't think they are the lightest and would have guessed they are above the weight you are suggesting is optimal?

In my experience the quality of crew is more important than the weight within reason. I would be happy to sail a F16 20 kg heavier if the crew is better.

Regards Gary.

ditto, 20kg can easily be made up for with a gun crew.

A few points but my info is a few years old now so things may have changed in the epoxy industry I don't know about..


One can use pre-preg uni directional "film" rather than a weave.
The crimping in the weave decreases the carbon strength slightly. So 2 x 100 gm layers of pre-preg will be stronger than 1 x 200 gm weave..

Next is amount of epoxy in the final layup. A good pre-preg will come out around the 40s% epoxy. Straight from the fridge.. A really good laminater will find it hard to get below 60%. Of course one could vac bag and bled the excess epoxy which one could see a 10-15% decrease in epoxy.. This is also true for wet lay build.. Reducing the final epoxy to 30-35% in a pre-preg..
Finally the epoxy in pre-preg is a "stronger" glue than can be easily found in "mix your own" shops.. BUT prepregs require minor cooking (60-100 degrees C) to firstly cure and secondly post cure (80-120).. However wet layups do benefit from cooking and post cure cooking as well.. (gains depends on the brand of epoxy).. Around 60C wet lay-ups starts to get soft.. Sounds like a high temp until you have a black boat sitting in a strong sunny day.. The old wet-layup tubes used on moths were hand deformable after a few hours on the beach..

At the end of the day we are talking minor amounts of weight gain and structural strength.. Its an issue with ultra boats like open 18teens but not an issue with F16s.. There are lots of ways one can decrease the hull weights if one wanted to.. All depends on time and energy one has to expend..
Remembering that vinyl-glass-foam-gel coat "A cats" hit the minimum weight for the class..

hope that helps..
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

welll... until you remember F16 is a class..
So the F16 should have a single handicap.. The T4.9 isn't 4.9 class regs last I looked.. So isn't a T4.9 its a F16.. Thus at a club event the boats should be registered and handicapped as a F16..

What we are seeing is evolution of the class.. With the older boats (like in any class) slowly becoming superseded by newer boats.. This happens in SMODs as well.. So not really a surprise..


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If they would have built it off the Taipan platform (not unlike the Blade) then they would have been right on weight and absolutely no exotic parts would have been necessary (i.e. carbon mast etc.) and they would be selling like hotcakes… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

hmmm.. maybe.. I don't think the T4.9 Association, knowing their overall response to the F16, that they would like to see that..

Here's a photo of my 18kg Top Gun Crew and hopefully future F16 World Champ <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Brilliant Mark !

Any objections if this photograph find its way in the "Best of the best" F16 gallery ?

Wouter

Very good points Hans.

And of course all the named boats, including your own, use aluminium beams as well.

I think the decision by AHPC to go for a higher ready to sail weight doesn't have that much to do with the cost of exotic materials at all. But rather that the quality control processes need to be well implemented at the factory if you want to get down to weight using the plain stuff like alu, glass and vinyl resins. This may be a tough job in a place like Thailand or Indonesia.

Wouter

Actually if there is a surprise to be found in all of this then it is in the fact how well the Taipans are hanging on. They may well not be the best F16 out there anymore but they sure as hell are to be taking into account. They are still coming out on top every now and then.

Wouter

Stephen,

There is a core of truth to your comments especially when looking at the Taipans, but other factors and other designs have reversed the trend. Although, the weight analysis by Elliot Tonkes still doesn't support any claims of superior crew weights below 135 kg. That is what statics tell us when taking into account a good number of race results.

Also I do agree that the Taipan hulls do get pressed in too far at a certain crew weight. I'm suprised at how much speed can still be coached out of them but it does get harder. The newer hulls are simply alot more bouyant and are also alot less sensitive to crew weight. But one of the biggest factors I found was that truly lightweight crews start lacking body power to really stamp the boat on its tail so to say. Crews that are bit more beefy tend to cover this aspect better and sufficiently so to be more performant overall. Truly 135-140 kg is where it is at, I'm really not pulling your leg here.

With respect to the Viper, I think AHPC will eventually have to lower its weight if it wants to make a play at getting the serious crews to buy Vipers instead of only the serious recreational racers and sailors.




That is mighty big of you to not have let my abuse sour you on the F16 idea. Having a modified Taipan myself I feel that "tinkering" about with a Taipan may not be a bad idea. Just stay below 145 kg combined if you really want to race it competitively. Go for the modern hullshapes if you are above that. If you are mostly looking at singlehanding then the Taipan is a very good F16 performer below 10 knots of wind, especially in the really light winds. If you regulary get more or get serious chop then the modern hullshapes will allow you the trapeze under spinnaker and bring a bigger smile to your face. The Aussie Blade is right on the mark in the way of hull design. That is my experience so far.

Welcome to the club and please accept my appologies for all the times I did you wrong. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I don't know - I actually put that suggestion about the factory to Greg in an email a while back and he was very clear that that was not the issue at all. You've pointed out elsewhere yourself that the hulls are only 3kg more than the Blade and clearly there has to be a hit for the extra volume.

The reply Bob got also highlighted the significance of the target crew weight in the overall design. If it's true that this is part of the justification for greater volume, I think he may be more concerned about putting some market separation between the Viper and the Capricorn.

Quote (Here's a photo of my 18kg Top Gun Crew and hopefully future F16 World Champ)

Well the "little" skipper looks competent, BUT that big hulking "crew" seems a little less so?

Yep, waiting for someone to bring up Willy and Petra. They would be outside the ideal weight range but Willy is a very exceptional sailor. He recently placed I believe 7th at the last F18 worlds (first non pro) with Steve Brewin, raced with Ashby on the F18s to an Oz title win and campaign with Ashby it the Tornadoes before Ashby hooked back up with Bundy. He is in another league to most off the others sailing in the class at present and the extra Kgs they are carring are off set by his skill level...... However skill level has nothing to do with optimum weight. Skill level should be taken as being equal when looking at a boats competitive weight.

Bundy and Ashby would beat us around the cans if they were 180 kg and we were 150.... However they would beat us by more if they were 150 kg also.