Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rating: 4
Hop To
Page 9 of 24 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 23 24
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #122799
11/12/07 08:12 PM
11/12/07 08:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
O
Olli Offline
stranger
Olli  Offline
stranger
O

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
Quote
Quote
Gary has admitted that he knows absolutely nothing about cats nor does he have any interest in learning.


That's really strange, since I used to race against Gary - in Hobie 16's. He owned a lime green one. Did you hear that directly from him?


Yes I did.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Draft Notice [Re: rhodysail] #122800
11/12/07 08:14 PM
11/12/07 08:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
O
Olli Offline
stranger
Olli  Offline
stranger
O

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
Quote
I'll join US Sailing again when I can vote JW onto the Board.


That and once Bowdie is gone then I'll join.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: John Williams] #122801
11/12/07 09:27 PM
11/12/07 09:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

To put this in Sun Tzu terms, if you cannnot understand the people that made the decision, you will never be able to effect a change and your cause will not prevail.



Didn't Sun Tzu also write somewhere to never fight your battles by following the enemies playbook.

And maybe some understand "the people that made the decision" far to well. Multihulls aren't "it" and never will be in their eyes.

Without an independent multihull powerbase they can afford to ignore us and play us at will. Change is only affected when one party has the ability to put the hurt on to another.

Infiltration sounds nice but I feel the Multihull Council is actually their tool to co-opt and control us. Afterall, infiltration works both ways. In colonial times, the powers would award some minor privilegdes to local chiefs as to have them eventually work against their own kind and interests. It was always done to advance the interests of the colonizer and never to allow the subjected any meaningful input.

So the question at time may well be about who is benefitting most from this relationship. Us or them ?

Lets face it guys, Mono's could only have lost 1 event out of 7, while the cats lost the only event they had. With the US votes the cat would have stayed in. Apparently, cats were not valuable enough to even consider dropping 14% of the mono scene.

They felt that bringing in the Keel boat was so important that they weren't willing to sacrifice a single mono class ! Dropping a multihull is a different matter of course, who cares about those. Ohh the natives might go restless, well, we'll drop some more glass Alter Cup beeds in some poor sob hands and he'll argue the mono's case for us. Hell, put some more firewater in his X-mas package to be sure.

This is not in any way personally directed to you John. You mean well and are a hero to the sport of catamaran sailing. But if I were a Machiavellian Monohull Prince then I too would play the game as described above. I've seen it happen before and it works.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/12/07 09:48 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122802
11/12/07 09:37 PM
11/12/07 09:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
O
Olli Offline
stranger
Olli  Offline
stranger
O

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
Quote
Quote

To put this in Sun Tzu terms, if you cannnot understand the people that made the decision, you will never be able to effect a change and your cause will not prevail.


I can't believe it but I totally agree with Wouter <g>!


Didn't Sun Tzu also write somewhere to never fight your battles by following the enemies playbook.

And maybe some understand "the people that made the decision" far to well. Multihulls aren't "it" and never will be in their eyes.

Without an independent multihull powerbase they can afford to ignore us and play us at will. Change is only affected when one party has the ability to put the hurt on to another.

Infiltration sounds nice but I feel the Multihull Council is actually their tool to co-opt and control us. Afterall, infiltration works both ways. In colonial times, the powers would award some minor privilegdes to local chiefs as to have them eventually work against their own kind and interests. It was always done to advance the interests of the colonizer and never to allow the subjected any meaningful input.

So the question at time may well be about who is benefitting most from this relationship. Us or them ?

Lets face it guys, Mono's could only have lost 1 event out of 7, while the cats lost the only event they had. With the US votes the cat would have stayed in. Apparently, cats were not valuable enough to even consider dropping 17% of the mono scene.

They felt that bringing in the Keel boat was so important that they weren't willing to sacrifice a single mono class ! Dropping a multihull is a different matter of course, who cares about those. Ohh the natives might go restless, well, we'll drop some more glass Alter Cup beeds in some poor sob hands and he'll argue the mono's case for us. Hell, put some more firewater in his X-mas package to be sure.

This is not in any way personally directed to you John. You mean well and are a hero to the sport of catamaran sailing. But if I were a Machiavellian Monohull Prince then I too would play the game as described above. I've seen it happen before.

Wouter

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122803
11/12/07 09:59 PM
11/12/07 09:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Wouter, you're not the first to suggest that I and the rest of the many volunteers on the Council (and those putting on our ladder events and two championships) are dupes, pawns and the instruments of the devil. After you get done insulting my intelligence, you say it isn't personal and say I'm a victim of a modern-day sailing Machiavelli - in over my head... that about get it? meh.

This is precisely what I'm talking about - you can't believe it happened the way I described so there must be some conspiracy. Sorry bud. Simple case of some good ol' fashioned prejudice in a couple of key places. I am working toward an understanding of the problem so that I may defeat it. Defeating it may mean walking around the mountain rather than over it.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Olli] #122804
11/12/07 10:26 PM
11/12/07 10:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
DVL Offline
member
DVL  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
Old saying I heard;

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

Infiltrate US Sailing, ISAF, and start up a multihull organization.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122805
11/12/07 10:41 PM
11/12/07 10:41 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
addict
BrianK  Offline
addict

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
Quote
And another thing.

"Amateurs" like Rocklegde Engineering are now producing better quality video reports of catamaran racing then the professionals. Surely we can expand this and usage of the internet to televise our sport !

Wouter



Wouter, our multimedia group is now called Rockledge Productions.

And we do work fast....

Adventure Online TV Presents:
"No Olympics For You"
Now playing at:
www.AdventureOnline.TV

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: John Williams] #122806
11/12/07 10:52 PM
11/12/07 10:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
One doesn't need to be a fool to be duped tends to help if your not!!..... In over your head no.. In without the total facts before the event.. Yes..

What the decision means is funds internationally that go to the Olympic training schemes will now bypass Cats.. Not "Tornados".. Cats full stop..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: BrianK] #122807
11/12/07 10:52 PM
11/12/07 10:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Superb, BK. Expert commentary, a beautiful day and a spinny reach. And here I sit on the phone. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: BrianK] #122808
11/13/07 05:00 AM
11/13/07 05:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
The way I see it it that we can make something good happen if we bring Rohan Veal, Darren Bundock and Mitch Booth together with people like you Brian and Rocklegde Productions. The first are excellent ambassadors to our cause and Rockledge Production has matured the video-ing and internet based televising to a point that it is generally accessible to all.

If we can get the important classes "online" then we can make the launch of our "high performance" organisation a success. Organise a combined event or two and show-case the results on the internet.

Also get a high performance women skiff going and if we are smart we get the blowkarts to join forces with us as well.

I truly believe that at this time with the available technology and "amateur" skill we can make it happen. Look at Aestela and Tacticat; internet is an enabler, lets use it. Of course ISAF and the local sailing associations at this point is helping us too, by making dumb descisions and pissing off some other classes like the womens skiff as well.

I mean at a certain point you have to make the call to start a "Boston Tea party", I'm sure that at that time there were voices calling "to work from the inside" as well. The people doing so weren't evil but they were wrong as the path to a better future lay elsewhere.

And indeed Brian you guys work fast !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/13/07 05:18 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122809
11/13/07 06:00 AM
11/13/07 06:00 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
What do we stand to gain, and what do we loose in such an arrangement. Who has the time and knowlegde to do an analysis.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122810
11/13/07 06:40 AM
11/13/07 06:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Maybe at this point I should clarify that I don't mean to cut all links to US sailing in favour of forming a seperate organisation.

I think the best approach is too do both. Keeping guys like John working from the inside while seriously forming an alternative organisation. Actually, forming a rival organisation will in the end empower guys like John more. Initially he may take alot of heat from the guys higher up, but eventually it will make him more powerful as he will be their only tool to limit the fall-out and if he is smart he will use that leverage to negociate more benefits out of US sailing.

Of course that new independent organisation will need to be maintained or otherwise the whigs will just forget about the deals made as soon as they have succesfully killed the forming of their rival.

That is the way it works in politics guys. It is neither good or evil, but simply the ways things are.

So it is always a two path approach where the one reinforces the other. Currently we have no other and the results are showing that.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122811
11/13/07 06:44 AM
11/13/07 06:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
A 1yr. membership in US Sailing costs $60 and they vote to drop your favorite class from the Olympics.

Meanwhile, $20 gets you both a subscription to Catamaran Sailor Magazine and a 1 year membership in NAMSA. (North American Multihull Sailing Asscociation.) There's your other organization.

Click on "Main Index" above, scroll down the list about 14 forums, click on the North American Multihull Sailing Assn. forum. It's been there quite a while. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Timbo; 11/13/07 07:06 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: John Williams] #122812
11/13/07 07:36 AM
11/13/07 07:36 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Thanks John. That's consistent with what I've heard also, admittedly from not quite the top, but close to it.

I've had a number of lengthy email exchanges with Leslie Keller (whose willingness to discuss the issue I greatly appreciate) and I got a little more information that I find quite revealing. As you point out, the delegates knew going in that they had to secure the keelboat, but the reason is apparently slightly more complex than just the belief that keelboats are better positioned to win a medal. What I have been told very explicitly is that the Olympic Sailing Committee believed that keelboat sailors would be able to generate more donations than the multihull sailors and that those extra funds would allow the team to be better prepared for the Games and therefore have a better chance of winning a medal. And this in turn would ultimately mean more money from the USOC.

I can think of a number of good reasons why the actions of US Sailing's delegates were wrong. But this one I find astounding because it shows just how much of a disadvantage the multihull had before the process ever started. It had far less to do with how competitive a multihull team may be against the best in the world than we might have imagined. It actually depends on being able to dominate keelboats in fund-raising. And I don't understand how that could ever happen without multihull sailing being more or less a dominant faction in the greater sailing world - which is never going to happen.

If this is the way things are, it casts in a slightly different light the debate over infiltration vs separation. It seems that by US Sailing's own admission, on the Olympic issue at least, the odds are stacked so heavily against us that we would need to virtually take over the sport in order to get fair treatment.

Mark.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: ] #122813
11/13/07 07:40 AM
11/13/07 07:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
If you leave USSailing, the Alter Cup will become a Hobie property and a "Hobie only" event. Trust me on this <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!

We've lost the Olympics. If we lose Alter Cup what do we have left?

Last edited by Tikipete; 11/13/07 07:43 AM.
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: fin.] #122814
11/13/07 07:44 AM
11/13/07 07:44 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Unless an alternative US Multihull Championship is organized. BTW I have not yet decided to leave - though it's still a serious option.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: fin.] #122815
11/13/07 07:53 AM
11/13/07 07:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
You don't need to call it the Alter Cup. You can do what ever you want and call it the US National Cat. Championships or something.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: ] #122816
11/13/07 07:57 AM
11/13/07 07:57 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



BTW, it seems to me that US Sailing have cast the integrity of the whole ISAF Olympic process into doubt. ISAF Regulation 16.1.5 states that the events selected -

(i) Must allow athletes around the world, male, female and of different size and weight, to participate;
(ii) Must achieve the current IOC objective of the minimum level of participation for women;
(iii) Must give the best sailors in each country the opportunity to participate in readily accessible equipment;
(iv) Must combine both traditional and modern events and classes, to reflect, display and promote competitive sailing.
(v) Must meet the IOC’s criteria for participation in the Olympic Programme.

The responsibility of the Council is to uphold their own regulations. The regional delegates are precisely the people who hold this responsibility. Yet by US Sailing's own admission they have applied a completely different set of criteria to the way they participated in this decision and in the process have completely subverted ISAFs own regulations - since the world's top catamaran sailors will now not have an opportunity to participate in the Games. I think the IOC would be pretty interested in that information.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Timbo] #122817
11/13/07 08:05 AM
11/13/07 08:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
"or something" is the problem. Getting catamaran sailors to agree on anything is like. . .herding cats! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And, btw, if you leave USS what handicapping system will you use? We need some answers before we do anything.

In the meantime, the manufacturer most be wondering whether to go forward with the expense of getting 10 Capricorns to GYC.

As a group we need to continue support of the Alter Cup, at least thru '08. Then we can do something "en masse".

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: fin.] #122818
11/13/07 08:21 AM
11/13/07 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
The Portsmouth numbers are pretty much garbage and we have all seen that. We could use what the rest of the world uses, or the Texel numbers, anything else would be a step up from the handicap numbers we have here.

I still find it hard to believe that after we sent about 700 emails to US Sailing, back when we were fist made aware they were not going to support a Multihull in the Olympics, that they would go right ahead and vote against it, with all our input to the contrary. Yet they voted for TWO Men's one-up Dinghys!

They say it's all about Medal production, well, how many medals have the US Sailors gathered in those two events in the past 30 years?? I can think of lots of other classes where the US has not had a medal in quite a while, but the Tornado Sailors have been producing for medals for years. What a slap in the face to them.


Blade F16
#777
Page 9 of 24 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 23 24

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 428 guests, and 75 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1