Jaybird, I have a suggestion. Instead of just leaving the forum, log out, create a new account under different name, lurk for a while and then post.

You'll see by just reading for a while that there was nothing personal in this conversation, just normal honest banter. And don't think you are unlucky, getting in a heated discussion with Wouter and Jake on your first post, that's a really common occurrence <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

now look, you called "BS" first and started the name calling...and now YOU'RE mad?

Seriously though - don't go away...I didn't mean anything to be hateful.

I have a hunch that the Jaybird fella was just an alias. Funny how he just registered on Nov 11 and started a pissing match.

Someone is hiding behind an alias, plain and simple. LOL! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter, are you really Jaybird? Wouldn't that mean you were arguing with yourself? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Geeesh...am I THAT bad? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

wow! think a posting is dead and then it suddenly flares back into life with lots of life, who needs sailing anarchy

but as the original poster i just want to say thanks for all the replies, i know a lot more now than i did before

the reason i asked the question in the 1st place was to get an idea about the ultimate pointing ability of my 5.2 regardless of what it costs me in speed

next summer when i try to tempt my wife and 2 kids on board, (8yo and 6yo), speed will not be important. in fact they'll probably like it slow as they can count the times they have sailed on 1 hand.

without a jib the tramp will be much cleaner and give more space for kids to get out of my way without getting tangled in lines. as a newbie sailor i'll have 1 less thing to worry about. we reduce the already small chance of flipping the boat to an even smaller chance as i'd have to have the jib cleated and maybe most important on our small lake just a few degrees of better pointing means lots less tacks will all the bays, wind shadows and an island to get round

but then i may blow a tack and end up screaming at everyone while i try to stop backing onto the rocks

whatever, the info has been great and it'll be great fun to experiment with both rigs and mast rake and then compare all the gps tracks to work out what works best, in that lake with it's winds and me at the helm.

If the day is quiet enough for you to leave the jib on, the kids will love doing the jib it will give them some involvment
regards

good point, they do get bored in anything approaching safe sailing but my daughter and i start to worry when the wind picks up and it gets interesting

on my dingy i could quickly turn around to pick up a man overboard or even just dive out for them and the boat would round up quickly

but on the nacra it'd take me much more space to stop and come back and if i dived off the cat while it would round up eventually it would be too far away to tow a child

Jaybird,

Your statements about the jib are wrong and you are wrong in continuing to reference to them.

Taking one example out of possibly many : A jib DOESN'T create more drag then lift as you claim.

Wouter

Sounds like a furler for your jib is in order. Great to be able to take it in and out of the picture as the situation warrants. And if you don't take my advice, I'll quit the forum and pout. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

oh! the number of nights I've cried myself to sleep from the thrashing recieved by a fellow sailer hmmm

Lighten up Jaybird most of us are fairly nice A-holes

Karl, don't forget hard headed and Opinionated <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Jake, If anyone seems to have a problem with you, they really have a problem with themselves they're not facing. That guy has a chip on his shoulder. Thanks for being your usual generous and knowledgeable self! It is too bad he couldn't understand what you were saying.

You posted a photo recently which showed your jib clearly (atleast I think it was you). You need to pull the wrinkles out of your jib with some luff tension, then you need a little more rig tension (I think that was the topic of your last question). Both of these should help with pointing.

Do a search on mast rake in this forum, it's been discussed heaps before. The basics of mast rake are that it will not noticeably help pointing no matter what the rake is (ignoring extreme rake positions, usually negatively). What it will significantly affect is helm on the rudders(weather or lee helm) You want to set your rake so that you have a little bit of weather helm while sailing upwind (if you release the tiller, the boat will round up into the wind steadily). Not so much that it is ripped out of your hand. This won't help your pointing but will reduce your leeway angle, which is another aspect of achieving height while sailing upwind. (The angle of your sails to the wind and the angle your boat slips sideways through the water both impact your height and are tricky to distiguish between.)

There is nothing tricky or "mystical" about rake and pointing, it is all about balancing forces and moments generated by the sails and hull (including appendages).

Jay, if you don't want to waist your time being bashed by Wouter on how a jib effects your ability to point, you can waist a few days on this. I do not believe anybody got bashed in this thread (although the Catter should have for starting it)

Waist of time

What's this I hear... is the "test" back again? Alright!! The absolute best 6 months worth of reading I've had in a while.

The test. A sure sign that winter is near. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Somebody else is going to have to post to it tho, I will not be guilty of waisting everybody else's time with such non-sense (Yet)

Trey- "Polly Piss pants" That's funny!

It's baaaaaaaack!

Pinching kills speed in any boat. Cats go fast, so they get further when allowed their head. A boat will feel sweet when taken off the highest pointing angle. Go down to sweet and then as speed builds come up a little anda retain speed and sweet feeling.
THe guys I generally sail with can'r seem to understand that pointing at something doesn't actually get you there.
"I know I was pointing higher than you but you crossed in front of me....."

I think it is an uptight thhing. Pinchers just can't let go and trust the process. They sail moment by moment and don't look at the path.