Let's see where this one goes...

We all know about sportboats, right? The high-performance over-sized dinghies with keels that can generate some decent speed, as typified by the likes of the Melges 24 and others.

Well, there is a new class of sportsboats in a smaller size, namely around 20'. These would be the Viper 640, Ultimate 20, Rocket 22, etc. Add to this a newcomer that's generating buzz - the Melges 20. Now, just when I thought hi-po cats were getting pricey, the Melges 20 is projected to go for around $40k. As that's a pre-production estimate, $42-$45k or more may be more like it. If I understand it right, the other boats are cheaper but nothing can be had new for under the upper $20's.

So, on another well-known sailing site, on the SportBoat forum, somebody had the gall to ask whether the appeal of the 20' sportboats would be limited, given that an all-up Hobie Tiger could be had for under $20k and would most likely out-perform the 20' Sportsboat. Well, that place ain't exactly multi-friendly, and hilarity ensued. Here's the thread - Catamaran VS. 20Ft Sportboat

So, I'm asking a similar question here just for fun, and honestly to hear what folks say. Is there anything about the 20' sportsboats that would have you think twice about your cat addiction? For example, would you pass on a new Nacra-20 for a Melges-20, why or why not?

As for me - I couldn't justify spending that kind of scratch on a day-sailer. For that kind of money to pass the family test, there needs to be something more to it. Especially considering that a new Melges-20 is more than I spent on my Corsair F-27. But the real thing is that a new Nacra-20 is far less money, and does everything the Melges can do, plus some the Melges can't even think of. Cool looking boat, though...

Anyway, those are my thoughts, what are yours?

There's an Ultimate 20 in the yard at our club. I'll go take another look at it, but nothing about it caught my eye... except the Gucci cover. It looked sexier than the 40 or 50 Cal 20s in the yard, but still looks like a monohull to me. I wouldn't ever turn down a ride, but can't imagine leaving the F18 class for something that much slower.

I've been on RC for both Melges 24's (US Nationals) and Ultimate 20's.

The U-20's are nice boats. They are essentially a 3-person dinghy with a huge assym. spinnaker. You can't buy a new one (yet) since the molds were destroyed in a fire a couple of years ago. Reportedly, a new builder is gearing up to produce them again.

Ultimate Sailboats was founded by Jeff Canepa, one of the early Hobie 14 hotshots (Worlds & National Champion).

Melges 24's are 4 to 5 person dinghies. Expensive. The fleet is highly competitive - they have pro and Corinthian divisions. The hiking position (leaning over the loose lower lifeline) is uncomfortable at best.

Both these boats are athletic (roll tacking, hiking) and appeal to a younger (20's & 30's) crowd. Like all dinghies, they are extremely tactical and boatspeed differences are minimal.

Most monohull people say they sail dry and don't like to get wet like on a catamaran. I've raced across Lake MI 30+ times on boats like a 26' Ranger to a Great Lakes 70, and 24' - 28' trimarans. Trust me, monohulls can be almost as wet as a multihull. You just get wetter longer.
BTW crewing for others is a lot less expensive than owning your own boat. Most owners are always looking for crew, just go hang out at the marinas.

That said, I would look at a newer sport boat only if that is what they raced locally. Unless there is a OD class of these sport boats for racing it would be cheaper to pick up a lead mine to race PHRF for 5 - 15K.

I have as much fun on my Hobie 18 with wings at $2.5K as they do on their $40 - $60K sport boats.

Man there are some uptight people over there!

I agree with you completely, though also understand the point about stability/storage. I also suspect that someone who is going to drop $30-40k on a sportboat has probably been sailing quite a few years and probably not on a multihull - so it wouldn't be surprising if a multihull seems just too far from what they already know for them to see it as a candidate for their well-earned. However this is a perception thing - I think it does indicate a potential market for us to grow multi sailing, but in many cases we need to get them earlier.

Another new sportboat of this type is the Laser SB3 http://www.teamvanguard.com/2007/Boats/SB3/default.htm
My buddy Anthony sailed it recently and there is a great review and pictures on www.anthonyandcy.com
I've sailed it a couple months ago, it's a lot of fun downwind with the asym but upwind it is slow and not much fun. Best part is hiking is illegal in the class, you have to sit facing inboard!
These boats are in a position to take many Melges (20 and 24) customers.

I've done a fair amount of racing on the U20. They are great boats and probably one of the few sportboats next to the M24 that I would consider buying. As far as value goes sportboats don't come close to cats. The new Melges 20 design looks good and I can't wait to see one in person.

I think you cannot compare ANY lead keel ballasted boat to a multi. The speed and sailing characteristics are just too different. A better comparison would be with non-ballasted skiffs or scows- Melges 17, Vector, 49er, E-scow (assym now class legal). Sportboats are still keelboats- ie you can/t turn one over. And that is always a big consideration for the buyer whether they want to admit or not. I have sailed on Olson 30's and Hotfoot 20's in SF Bay. A wild ride to be sure, but still absolutely no comparison the the few races I crewed on a H20 in the bay. Too bad we did not have a spinn.

Uh, no. If I want to stay dry or cruise I would buy a larger multi or some other keel boat.

As one of the SB guys pointed out, there may be a commonality in sharing facilities. In general, yacht clubs need member$.

Gang:

Rocket 22 has a VERY neat system if you have ever raced monoslugs. There are NO winches!!!!! All controls go to a center mounted pod with just cleats. Lines run under the **** of the boat!!! Can be adjusted easy from other side, AND you don't have to have a man down low to adjust jib.
http://www.rocketboats.com/pdf/Rocket22_2007-08.pdf

Neat,

Doug

At Scott's Flat there was an A-cat that hit and punched a hole in an Ultimate 20. Cosmetic damage to the A cat, a couple thousand dollars worth of damage to the Ultimate 20. How fragile can a boat be that it can't take a hit from a potato chip?

Life is just too short to sail a monohull.

Agreed, but...in the sportboat genre, my choice is the Martin 243, pretty cool boat, check the photos at the bottom
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/4854

Look at a T-Boned A-Cat and assess that damage. Difference is most A-Cats can be repaired on the spot with skilled hands. And most of the A-Catter's that I have met have done just that, myself included.

Holy hell thats a big kite!

That kite is not going to exceed windspeed.

The U20 has its roots in cat sailing. The well known 1970's H14/H16 champ Jeff Canepa started USI here in Santa Cruz 1994??. He can be seen on the Hobie Video Sharing the wind.

My glass repair guy used to be the USI plant manager before they moved the molds to Canada in 2005. Another guy that used to build the U20 now races H16's and is the current Div 3 Bravo Champ.:)

The U20 is a great boat, and I hear that they are close to getting the class approved for the Olympics. I've sailed one alot, and it's a fun boat, but it's not a cat!

They're a bit defensive over there at SA. Kinda cracks me up.

From experience with N-20s and A-Cats joining a club, I believe the storage space argument is a wash versus a 20' sportboat. Again, we're talking 20' boat to 20' boat, and in the end both trailerable widths are 8.5'.

I think also that at 20', these may be considered for people without extensive sailing experience (as well as for those with experience looking to downsize). But the price tag ups the ante a bit.

So, if in an area with one of these classes established, would you dump your cat and get one, or would you take the initiative and try to establish a cat group. Assuming people have some money for new boats - a fleet of new N-20s or a fleet of new M-20s?

What would there be about the M-20 sailing experience to warrant twice the price of a 20' cat? Could you justify spending the scratch just to race in a OD, given also that the fleet is not established yet?

Yes, and no.

It would be nice to be able to take morons out on the boat without fear of going into the drink....unfortunatly my Ford Focus would not tow many sport boats.

The H16 is a fun boat, though I've yet to sail mine since I bought it. I fear taking my girlfriend or 80 year old grandmother out on a cat might be traumatic.

There is one more issue to consider and that is how much water do you have available, and how warm is that water. Down here in Florida many of the lakes and even bays are not deep enough for a deep keeled mono, but the water is warm most of the time (even in January it's still warmer at 70 degrees, than any water ever gets in July up north) so up in New England, they prefer to stay dry and warm vs. wet and freezing cold.

And there is the "get it by the wife" thing to consider too. If you have a wife and kids, and you tell her you are going to buy a beach cat, which YOU will be sailing, with -one- other person only, and that person is going to work their butt off, and be wet on the wire if there is any wind, and you might flip it once in a while, well, most wives I know are not going to buy into that plan.

If instead you can show them a boat (mono) that has a cabin, a potty, tell them "It will never flip over because of this 1,000lb. keel..." and you can take the entire family of 4,5,6 out on it when not racing, it's a much easier sell to the wife.

And if Mama's not happy, nobody's happy! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Keith... The Laser SB3 from England is a completely different kind of ride then the sport boats. ... The boat is designed so that you CAN'T hike out on the thing...you sail the boat from the ****. The objective is to take a lot of the physical, muscle work out of racing ... It seems to be hugely popular over in England.

I would imagine that boats like the SB3 targets the Star, Soling, Etchells, Lighting, and J 22 crowd more so then the sport boat Melges 24... M20 or Viper 640 and us of a catamaran ilk. In addition... I could see it attracting PHRF racers who keep their big boat for cruising and shift to the SB3 for Wed Nights and a couple of weekend races on their purpose built race boat, but one that is NOT super athletic. I think the SB3 could do Oxford in 20 to 30…. I know the other boat classes would sink! Now… where you sleep when you get there is just like the beach cat problem.

The Esse 850 is another design shooting for this market of a stable not too athletic race boat that needs a crew of 3 or 4…

The Brits are telling me on SA that much of their growth in sailing has been in the low performance boats….new, cheap and easy to maintain… NOT the High performance skiffs and cats.

The SB3 would likely cost you the same in operating costs a year as a PHRF C boat or one of the old one designs but with the advantage of an SB3 over an Etchells or J22 of being able to do the bay distance races making an SB3 a better deal in my opinion. …

But... you can take the family cruising overnight on a PHRF boat. (never happens but you tell the wife that this boat is a family thing and not a stress test for her)

I could see the appeal of an SB3 down the road when the body starts to wear out.... I would keep racing a cat until then…

Sell her on the Trimaran before a monoslug! My wife loved the test sail on a Corsair vs. my J-24!

Owning and sailing both a Hobie 16 and a Melges 24 lets me see both sides.

In deference to present company, sailing a beach cat at speed is about the most exciting thing you can do on the water (with your pants on)

On the other hand

Wednesday night on the Melges we get out and race around the cans. With 4 or 5 guys on board there is a never ending stream of humor, bonehead errors,briliant saves, successes and failures. This is the high point of each summer week.

Hope this helps
Chet

I can honestly say that approach worked for me - out went the 25' keelboat Northstar 500 and in came the F-27...

Chet - is the weeknight racing PHRF or OD? Weeknight racing is a great thing - if you got to choose whether to do it on a 2-person 20' sportboat or a 2-person 20' cat, would there be a preference?

Keith asked
Chet - is the weeknight racing PHRF or OD? Weeknight racing is a great thing - if you got to choose whether to do it on a 2-person 20' sportboat or a 2-person 20' cat, would there be a preference?

Reply -
For me, 2 people on the cat would be infinitly superior. That being said, I cherish the time with my chums on the Melges Wednesday night. We are racing PHRF, don't rate out very well against the newer designs, the courses are better for boats with genoas and symmetric spinnakers, but still have fun trying to beat whoever our arch rival du jour is.

I see you've tricked me into writing "on topic".

Regards
Chet

In terms of full on thrill I would place a skiff then a cat then a sports boat..

The skiff seems faster.. BUT its another level of energy and skill to keep her upright.. The cat with kite is almost as much fun but a whole lot easier to keep upright.. and the sports boat is for beer sailing!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Then Im old and grumpy!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

To answer Keith-

For too short a time my father had a Stiletto 27. My wife would actually ask if we could go out on it- and she flat refuses to sail with me now on any other boat. The speed, stability and comfort (read "DRY") were unmatched. Throw up the reacher off the tip of one bow and wave good-bye to everyone. And if you want more, rig a pole and big assym. I would love to have another one for beer can races and handicap racing (perfect Mug racer!). Easy to sail, brign all your buddies, food, beverages, and still fast!

I've noticed that on Wed nights... the social group is the 5 or 6 peopple on your big boat. With the cat... the social group is the 10 or 15 people in the bar.

I haven't sailed either boat mentioned, but like Matt have seen the Melges 24 up close in action. While it was faster than the J24s at the same (large) regatta, it was MUCH slower than the Melges 32, which blew me away with how fast a monohull could go (granted, it was blowing 18+ knots).

Having said all of that, I wouldn't trade my Hobie 16 for any of them. A trimaran, maybe... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike