OK, so first up - I'm a total noob. I don't know anything about classes, or formulas, or how many dagger boards an H16 has. I'm a noob.

I live in New Zealand, and I've done a wee bit of sailing, but never actually sailed a Hobie - I doubt they give you Hobies to sail in the Islands.

I live near a beach that gets some ok wind, and I'm seriously thinking about buying me a toy - a wee cat to go screaming about in <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I've been looking around at what I could buy, and have discovered this thing called a "Paper Tiger". It seems to be just an Australian / New Zealand thing, and similar to an H14. I don't know enough about enough to have any idea as to if this is a good 1st cat or not.

Can anyone help me out by advising what the key differences are between the H14 and the Paper Tiger?


I'll try and pre-empt some of the questions:
- I will sail periodically, as the mood fits
- I won't be competing, or taking it all that seriously
- I used to windsurf - I like screaming <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
- I'm budget conscious (the Paper Tiger seems so cheap)


OK - I've looked hard, and I can't find this information, so I'm hoping you guys have the answers!


Thanks,



ZaneO

I don't know much about a paper tiger, but the Hobie 14 would work well for what you are looking for as long as it will just be you and you don't want ot take passengers

I think there are some people that know alot about the paper tiger so they should be able to help.

Oh yeah - good point!

I want to be able to sail it by my self, but also to be able to take one or two people with me if I want.

That basically eleminates the Hobie 14 unless you are both anorexic midgits.

You might look at a Hobie 16, you can sail it solo easily and also take two when you want to.

yes i have only seen and read about the paper tiger but it looks fun and seams to have the boyancy to take 2 ppl but a hobie 16 is fun 1 up as long as it is not blowing much above a force 3

the other options are the windrush, which is great fun light fast and 14 feet long and avaliable cheep,

or a a class a bit flimsy 18 foot but very fast,

or if you can get one a f14 either 430 or alfa omega they are very quick 14 feet but may be expensive or hard to find

i have a windrush and they are great, i am adding sails to it to make it a f14 but if i was you i would say the windrush is the ber=st boat but for fun single handed

Cool thx gree2056. I guess I'm now comparing an H16 with the Paper tiger, which is a 14'. Having said that, I'm pretty sure the Paper Tiger is comfortable with 2 people, and you could put three on at a stretch (small people)

rictorn: thanks, but it doesnt seem the windrush is alive in New Zealand. (nothing for sale here anyway).

I know people say alot of crap about the Hobie 16, but I would be willing to bet that there are more people who learned to sail on one than any other type of cat, and for a quick set up, and just a blast to take out the H16 is gonna be close to your best bet.

I can't see any 14 foot cat being fun with three people on it, I have taken three on my Hobie 14 and could barely keep it upright. Even 3 on my Nacra 5.2 which is 17 feet is crowded.

Also H16 are easy to find and can take a beating.

The papertiger was a "home-built" ply stitch and glue construction. However Im sure someone has taken a mold and makes "glass" versions.

It has dagger boards so a little more difficult in surf landing than the H14. However it also has better pointing because of the plates than the H14 or H16. Its also a heap lighter than the H14 or H16..
The "paper" was a starter cat when the fleets here were large.. ie before playstations and X-boxes.. Its a nice light boat that at a good price will be enjoyable..

Hi Zane....
gree2056 is right. I've had 14's & 16's....16 is the way to go. I found 2 paper tigers in N.Zel. do a google search!!!
if ya can't find it, e-mail me ( popeyez7@aol.com ) I'll send it to ya.....or send me a message in here !!

The PT is the easiest, cheapest way to get started in catsailing in NZ - far more plentiful and far less expensive than an H16. You will find them easily enough on trademe. The thing you miss out on is a trapeze, but if you enjoy the PT, you could move on to an older A class later (or if you're lucky and want to sail with someone else find a Tiger Shark or an old Tornado, both of which turn up occasionally). Others here can speak with more experience and authority about the weight carrying ability of the PT, but they do have reasonable hull volume.

http://www.papertigercatamaran.org/

I have sailed and owned 5 PTs. I race against H16s quite a bit and have owned 6 Windrush 14s.
Best boat for two fit and wild people is the H16. This boat is no good for one person above 12 knots of wind and you will not right it alone but if you can convince someone else they want to crash and bash and reach like death...you can't go past it. 2.5K for a good one but check it out well.
All three 14s will pay a price with two people. I have sailed all of the Bay of Islands on the PT with two people for cruising fun....but Two up now would drive me nuts.
The PT is by far the best sail boat of all four so long as you get a good one....foam core and good tuning gear. Won't take mis-treatment. 1.5k for a good boat and a good ply beater about 700.
It is the fastest of the 14s but needs to be sailed well to achieve that.
PT is a fabulous 25 knot beater/reacher and a very "coming home" boat.

The Windrush is a surprising boat. It is raced two up with no trap and one up with a trap.
It won't like three people but will sail about like that and is a good island hopper come beater in the 20/30 knot range.
It is tough and the factory are still making parts and Boat Bitz in Takapuna rep the bits.
Easy to assemble, sail and right solo etc.
Very good value in NZ as it is 500 to 1K cheaper than the H14 and all round is a better boat...but not as cool....the Hobie name has street cred and it hits up the price.
Excellent Windrush should cost 1.8/2K
Either of these 14s wants to come with a roller furler jib.

Be sure the trailer of any of these boats is a Hoskings.

If you are “new to sailing”, cats in particular, the PT is not really the most suitable to learn on. Although you can pick up some very cheap ones, they tend to be a bit “delicate” as they are primarily designed for racing one up. The majority of PT’s around are made of ply, which takes quite a bit of maintenance and won’t handle the “hammering” that all first cats get (whether intentionally or by accident) and there are the centreboards, which are a real pain for “first time sailers”. Even the fibreglass hulled PT’s are still built down to a relatively low weight for racing and therefore have the similar “delicacy” as the ply hulls. The PT’s big plus is that there are many available at a very low purchase price so that if you bought one you could destroy it whilst learning then discard it at very little cost for the experience that you gain. The mast and sail configuration is like no other similar sized cat on the water and it takes some time to sort out how to make them perform, as well as that their mast is a very small profile compared to other similar sized cats and can be broken very easily. All that said they are a superb little cat that give many sailers enormous satisfaction sailing, many of whom have leaned to sail on a PT and continue to sail them for their whole life.
For first up sailing the Hobie 14 is an excellent choice as it is hardy and robust being built originally to take all the abuse that anyone could throw at them and still come back for more. The limited buoyancy in their hulls means that they suffer with more than one person on board but every weekend I see Hobie 14’s out sailing with two people on board and they are having “a ball”. Any of the “plastic fantastics” designed between the ’70’s and ’80’s have all been built for just what you are describing, and by the sheer numbers of them still sailing and in good condition shows that they have passed the test of time The Hobie 14, the Windrush 14, the Mari cat 14, the Calypso 14, the Sundance 14, as well as several other lesser known 14’ cat that have mostly been forgotten now all fit the criteria that you describe. They are relatively light, easy to rig and derig, easy to sail (as well as easy to learn on), require the minimum maintenance, almost “bullet proof”, and all can be sailed with more than one person on board. To start off on a 16’ cat, whether it be a Hobie or any other brand I think you will be a little disappointed and not to say a little “overawed” by their bulk and gross power. In other countries, and particularly on inland waterways in those countries the tendency is to sail a lot in much lighter conditions than what is sailed in New Zealand and Australia and that makes any cat larger than 14’ a real handful. Many times I have seen people “down under” have their first sail on a 16’ Hobie only to be so “scared off” that they have never ventured out again. My advice is to start with what is within your “safety” range, learn, and then if you want to go bigger do it with some experience under your belt.

You can solo the HObie 16 in over 12, you just have to practice. If I can handle my 5.2 alone in 20 you can handle a hobie 16 alone.
As for the righting, all the hobies I have been on have been stubborn to right! My 14 was hell to right, but i can get my 5.2 back upright on my own easily.

[Quote
You can solo the HObie 16 in over 12, you just have to practice. If I can handle my 5.2 alone in 20 you can handle a hobie 16 alone.
As for the righting, all the hobies I have been on have been stubborn to right! My 14 was hell to right, but i can get my 5.2 back upright on my own easily.
end quote]

You may have no trouble, but this is a "beginner" that we are talking about, and besides, I have personally rescued many "experienced Hobie 16 sailers over the years during races who have not been able to right their H16 when ditched, even with two people.

That was why I said he would have to practice. You can tame most cats down quite a bit with some experience.

Also, I know 16 are hard to right, they seem to float at an odd angle and when you are righting them they like to rock to the back or front making righting difficult.

I just think the 16 would be the best boat for what he is looking for. Actually the Hobie Wave or Getaway would probably be good also, but those are probably out of his price range and I just feel odd suggesting them to anyone.

Zaneo,
I've owned sailed and built Paper Tigers. I even have a Paper Tiger mould if anyone wants to make use of it.
The min weight on the platform is very light and the original glass Tigers (egg shell construction) would come in around 10kg over miniumum . ie 60kg instead of 50kg. These may be a little more robust but still probably not up to what you need.
Paper Tigers are fantastic boats but in your case I'd be looking for a Hobie 14, Maricat 14 or Windrush 14. I think the Hobie14 would be the lowest on my list and Windrush the highest.
I agree with Darryl on the Hobie 16.
Once you've spent a couple of seasons on the 14 if you want something more then maybe look at a 16 but make sure you have someone who will come out to help you right it.
Remember there will be times when you are sailing this by yourself without a support craft. You have to be able to right the boat unless you want to become a statistic.

Regards,
Phill

Ahhh... You've got to love forums, and the enthusiastic helpful people on them!

Thanks all for your advice so far. I'd be VERY tempted to get an H16, but I would become a statistic, so I'd better get some more experience on a PT or Windrush first.
There are no Windrush's for sale in NZ at the moment, but my neighbor has some kind of cat, so I should start by selling all my windsurfing gear, and getting friendly with my neighbor <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Here's a couple of links to a couple of the PTs I've been considering considering...
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=130147196
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=134511823


I'm very adverse to maintainance - I'm just not all that good with my hands.

I am an amatureness - but not a complete freshy. I've sailed cats a few times in light winds, but never anything really fun. I also used to sail Optimists when I ran summer camps. I've spent a couple of years windsurfing, and I used to sail with the family a lot on a Davidson M20 Trailor Sailor. Still - I don't know much, and definitly don't know any of the technical stuff - like the right technique for righting!


Anyway, thanks again for all your help... I'll keep taking advice, and look forward to parting with some money!


ZaneO

I am with Darryll here. Try to picture a Hobie 16 as a small, high skill windsurfer board. Great if you already know how to water start and feel safe in 20 knots but if a Noob asked what he should buy to learn on???

You won't feel like a wuss on the Windy (very easy to right) or Hobie 14 and you will be able to go out in 20 knots and flip it and right it and laugh your butt off with your mate and learn a heap....like keeping your face out of the way when the hulls comes back to the surface.
The following season you will have a strong set of skills to go onto the bigger boat with.
The power thing is no joke for a lot of people. I sail a Hydra 16, Taipan 16 and Tiger Shark 18 solo. I have a good water-wise friend who will not go near my 18 again after a reach that just set a desire not to hang off that particular bit of wire again in his mind.
If you have a partner who you want to introduce to the superb experience of cat sailing, a bad day on something as powerful as the H16 can be a very bad day.
Flip it when totally unaware and put her through the wires. Spend an hour trying many varied ways to right it while bucking up her spirits and wiping the blood from her forearm..........give up and spend an hour getting someones attention and then a half hour getting it upright. And then flip it three minutes later when the fizz boat is gone again.

Having said all of this. Hobie 16 sailors are always looking for cannon fodder. Learn the skills from another for free and then get your own.

Last words,,,on shore breeze.

I will have a Windrush on the Auction Zillion in two weeks. It looks strong and has the good rudders etc and will have a reserve of about 1.5.
That would be in Auckland.
Windrush boats come up all of the time though so just keep putting it in the search on Trade me or Zillion.
If you are down Taranaki there is a foam PT that looks pretty good. He is asking 2K ONO. He has been selling for months (was over 3K I think) and might go to 1.5...oh, this is the second link boat! The blue boat is a dog compared and realistically worth $500/700 when being kind. The white boat has three spare sails, is on weight and was in the nationals last season (I was also considering this boat) : )

Do ask here for what to look for if you decide to buy any boat.

just a thought, but the Prindle 16 or even a 18 classic.. would probally fit. here's one for sale in Z land http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors...n-129840462.htm