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Zhik PFD #129066
01/17/08 12:33 PM
01/17/08 12:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
M
mmadge Offline OP
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mmadge  Offline OP
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Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
Rick I seen in your latest Cat Sailor Magazine that you are promoting the new Zhik PFD.Are you aware that it is not USGA approved.Is ther any talk of it becomming approved?
I actually just bought one and am hoping not to get protested for wearing it.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: mmadge] #129067
01/17/08 01:45 PM
01/17/08 01:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 263
SC
zander Offline
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SC
According to Mike Krantz you can only be protested if the SI's specifically state that a "USCG approved PFD" is necessary, If the SI's only require a "PFD" then you are OK. Mike is driving to FL right now so maybe he can chime in when he gets settled.


Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: mmadge] #129068
01/17/08 01:56 PM
01/17/08 01:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
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BLR_0719  Offline
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Atlanta, Ga
I wonder how many crybabies out there would protest a sailor for not wearing a Coast Guard approved life jacket.

I personally wouldn't care if you wore those inflatable floaties that slide on your arm



Re: Zhik PFD [Re: BLR_0719] #129069
01/17/08 02:17 PM
01/17/08 02:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Be careful here guys, some class rules also rule that a bouyancy aid that is approved by the local authority must be worn while racing. So it is not just the SI's

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: zander] #129070
01/17/08 02:21 PM
01/17/08 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Quote
According to Mike Krantz you can only be protested if the SI's specifically state that a "USCG approved PFD" is necessary, If the SI's only require a "PFD" then you are OK. Mike is driving to FL right now so maybe he can chime in when he gets settled.


There's a problem when the class' rules require it, though.

For example, in the IHCA (Hobie) Class Rules, it states in the "General Rules" section:
Quote
8. SAFETY EQUIPMENT
8.1 Each person on board shall carry a lifesaving
device or Personal Flotation Device (PFD) approved
by their country’s national authority or by
the national authority having jurisdiction. The
IHCA strongly recommends that life jackets or
PFDs be worn at all times.


Sailing Instructions can only change a class rule by stating the rule number and the change (RRS 86.1(b))

But since you guys rarely/never race Hobie One-Design, you don't have to worry about it. mmadge does. All it takes is one jerk who wants to improve his score at your expense. Guaranteed the protest won't come until the last day of an event.

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: mbounds] #129071
01/17/08 02:56 PM
01/17/08 02:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Eastern NC, USA
The item in question is really comfortable and well made. It does; however, come with a big tag thats says "THIS IS NOT A LIFESAVING DEVICE"...

It'd be interesting to know the intent of it becoming approved.


Tom
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: mbounds] #129072
01/17/08 03:27 PM
01/17/08 03:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Quote
Sailing Instructions can only change a class rule by stating the rule number and the change (RRS 86.1(b))


Except, doesn't ISAF Regulation 26.5(f) apply and restrict changing the class rules for the ISAF-recognized classes?

Quote
But since you guys rarely/never race Hobie One-Design, you don't have to worry about it.


I was always under the impression that if you race in an open event, you're supposed to follow your class rules. I know there are adjustments for equipment changes (adding a chute, etc.), but isn't there a general assumption that you will race your boat to its class rules?

I agree though, most likely, no one would ever protest you until after the racing, and usually only if they had something to gain. An OA might protest you depending on the level of the event, if there were on-water judges present, etc.

Mike

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: brucat] #129073
01/17/08 04:13 PM
01/17/08 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Quote
Quote
Sailing Instructions can only change a class rule by stating the rule number and the change (RRS 86.1(b))


Except, doesn't ISAF Regulation 26.5(f) apply and restrict changing the class rules for the ISAF-recognized classes?


You're digging deep, Mike - I was trying to keep it simple. My point was that it's more likely that an SI would make an ineffective change than somebody would remember Reg 26.

Quote
Quote
But since you guys rarely/never race Hobie One-Design, you don't have to worry about it.


I was always under the impression that if you race in an open event, you're supposed to follow your class rules. I know there are adjustments for equipment changes (adding a chute, etc.), but isn't there a general assumption that you will race your boat to its class rules?


How many protests for class rules violations occur in a Portsmouth class? Do you think the PC is going to have a copy of the IHCA / NACRA / whatever class rules handy?

The point was that you're less likely to get protested in an open class than in a fleet of one-designs.

Quote
I agree though, most likely, no one would ever protest you until after the racing, and usually only if they had something to gain. An OA might protest you depending on the level of the event, if there were on-water judges present, etc.

Mike

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: mmadge] #129074
01/17/08 04:37 PM
01/17/08 04:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
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Seattle,Wa
Would your insurance pay out on a claim if it came to light that you were not wearing the required equipment?

Would the regatta insurance honor the claim if the event cordinators failed to ensure the proper equipment was worn?

Once they (race committe have knowledge, if they choose to do nothing I beleive they can be called negligent and therefore liable. (?)

Just wondering...


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Don_Atchley] #129075
01/17/08 05:06 PM
01/17/08 05:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks Matt, just confirming that I understand the rules correctly. I agree, the instances you list above happen every day, and rarely get pushed.

Don has some excellent reasons they maybe should be pushed. After someone is hurt it's too late to try to enforce the rules.

On a philisophical note, there could be a Catch-22 if you want to require an SI that modifies a class rule without realizing it (like Matt said, it would be tough to know all the rules for all the beach cats that could come out of the woodwork for an open event). If you stated that a specific type of lifejacket was required, but that conflicted with class rules (and you didn't follow Reg 26), what would that do? Fortunately, there aren't that many ISAF-recognized cat classes, so I guess an OA could spend some time reading all of those rules, but yikes...

I have seen some SIs for open mono events that are liberal with their class rule "over-rides," such as allowing (or prohibiting) VHF, etc. They don't list all the specific class rules they are changing, they just say something to the effect of "this takes precedence over individual class rules." Not sure how that technically would hold up.

Yes, it's winter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: tshan] #129076
01/17/08 05:08 PM
01/17/08 05:08 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
The item in question is really comfortable and well made. It does; however, come with a big tag thats says "THIS IS NOT A LIFESAVING DEVICE"...

It'd be interesting to know the intent of it becoming approved.


I wonder if those "water noodles" come with a tag that says, "not intended as source of nutrition".

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Don_Atchley] #129077
01/17/08 06:01 PM
01/17/08 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Would the regatta insurance honor the claim if the event cordinators failed to ensure the proper equipment was worn?


Hmm.... Who would be PRO of an event where they were responsible for a saftey equipment check?

You have extended regatta liability to a ridiculous level.

The RC... runs a race.. The CAPTAIN of the Vessel is responsible for saftey.

The minute you try to be Regatta Nanny... you take responsibility from the sailor... and move it to the regatta staff. BAD MOVE

Note... the Chicago to Mac Race has a HUGE saftey equipment check list.

Do you think they check the hundreds of boats out before they go racing.

NO!...

They check the winning boats out to ensure they followed the rules of the game....

Its a Corinthian sport!

If the race required a tiki girl doll on board and you did not have one... Oh well.. there goes your trophy... to the next best finisher with a tiki girl doll on board.

Many state laws require a PFD thowable on your vessel.... Do you carry one? No! .. Do you think the regatta staff should enforce this state law?

Heck If the marine police wanted to write some citations... they could ticket the entire regatta.

But did you break a racing rule.... nope!

Keep the two things seperate... Racing is not the same as liability and saftey at sea.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/17/08 10:23 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Mark Schneider] #129078
01/17/08 06:12 PM
01/17/08 06:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Coast Guard also says you must have one type I,II,III,or V onboard for every member ... If it doesn't fall in those categories it wouldn't pass a check. Unlikely you'd get checked during a regatta but possible.
http://uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_pfd.htm


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #129079
01/17/08 06:43 PM
01/17/08 06:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
In Minnesota any boat over 16ft is supposed to carry a fire extinguisher. On a beach cat for what? I've been kinda hoping to get a ticket for that just for the entertainment of going to court.

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Mark Schneider] #129080
01/17/08 08:17 PM
01/17/08 08:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Every boat that races Newport/Bermuda gets checked. I wouldnt be surprised if every boat in Chicago Mac gets checked.

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: brucat] #129081
01/17/08 09:53 PM
01/17/08 09:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 80
West Virginia
Soapysails Offline
journeyman
Soapysails  Offline
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Posts: 80
West Virginia
How many lawyers dose it take to sink a sport ? perhaps future RC's will need to address this in the NOR's I would be a bit up set if after driving many costly miles to an event, only to find out my favorite life vest was not acceptable. Auh, but thats just me..lol

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Soapysails] #129082
01/17/08 10:17 PM
01/17/08 10:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
We do NOT need not re invent the wheel...

The 100th Chicago to Mac Race. (400 boat limit!)

Quote
16. RISK AND LIABILITY
The Chicago Yacht Club, its officers, directors, members, sponsors, employees and agents, the CYCMC, the Race Committee, the Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac Jury and any other Committee of the Club shall not be liable for any injury or damage whatsoever to persons or property which may occur during or arise out of or in connection with this Race Notice is hereby given to all participants including spectators, officials and others that they participate in this event solely at their own risk.
17. PHOTOGRAPHY

18. INSPECTION
An entered boat shall be subject to inspection by the Race Committee from 1200 CDT Wednesday prior to the Race until the boat has properly completed any post-race inspection and has properly completed its post-finish sign-in. The Race Committee may protest a boat failing to comply with any of the rules and regulations specified in this Notice and Conditions of Race, Notices to Competitors and Sailing Instructions.


Notice... Two points.

They don't have the now common (but useless)... proof of liability insurance requirement. In fact... they don't even bother with ANY recommendation for YOUR Liability protection. It's your business... they don't need to get involved in it.


The inspection process is random.... the practice is ... the winners and spot checks.

The list of what you need to have is Saftey Reg's for multi's .


With respect to the Zihk PFD.... IF it will do this... you are good to go! (32 lbs of flotation).

Quote
74. Personal Flotation Devices (PFDs) -- Each crew member sixteen (16) years of age or older shall have either:
1. a Type 1 U.S. Coast Guard approved PFD or,
2. an inflatable PFD having at least thirty-two (32) pounds buoyancy and designed to securely suspend an unconscious person face upwards at approximately forty-five (45) degrees to the water surface. All inflatable PFDs shall have a compressed gas inflation system. Inflatable PFDs need not have a water-activated auto-inflate system in order to satisfy this requirement. Belt pack PFDs with rip cord inflation providing at least thirty-two (32) pounds of buoyancy may be used to satisfy this requirement.
Each crew member under sixteen (16) years of age shall have a U.S. Coast Guard approved PFD appropriate for the crew member's age and weight and suitable for offshore sailing conditions, as determined by the Person-In-Charge.



We need not re invent the wheel... We do not need to get crazy about the legal stuff either.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Mark Schneider] #129083
01/17/08 11:27 PM
01/17/08 11:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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mikekrantz  Offline
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Posts: 712
Here's a summary of the PFD situation. European countries require the PFD to be CE approved. The US requires the PFD to be USCG approved. Australia has their own requirement (however it accepts CE approval as legit), and so do some of the South American countries... For the most part they all require a certified construction and a minimum amount of bouyancy - pounds, newtons, etc. If you are an international athelete, you are required to have a whole bag full of PFD's if the SI's or class rules are specific enough to require a PFD that meets the local requirement. More and more often the SI's are being modified to specify a "PFD", no more, no less.

Meanwhile Zhik has chosen to adopt the European "CE" certification because at the moment it is being accepted in Europe and Australia - the majority of the worldwide sailing PFD market. The Zhik PFD is tagged as "Not Coast Guard Approved", and marketed as such. FWIW, Musto, Gill, and Magic Marine also market PFD's that are CE approved, not USCG approved. At this time the cost of getting USCG approval does not make economic sense for Zhik, nor any other non-US manufacturer.

Currently there is an international movement to adopt an ISO9001 standard that all countries can adopt, and end this entire process of certification within each authority.

Regards, Mike Krantz
Zhik USA

Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Mark Schneider] #129084
01/17/08 11:31 PM
01/17/08 11:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
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Seattle,Wa
Quote
You have extended regatta liability to a ridiculous level.


No, I was asking a question. Opening a line of discussion.

What is the insurance at a regatta for, and would it be jepeordized if they did not (at least in writing) mandate you follow the law.

Enforcement is another matter.

The Chicago race covers this by putting the list out and stating you must comply.

I remember in the 80's we all used to have throwables strapped down to the boat because it was required. None of them were usefull in their original purpose.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: Zhik PFD [Re: Don_Atchley] #129085
01/18/08 12:03 AM
01/18/08 12:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
old hand
hobiegary  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
Suggestion. Tie a USCG approved pfd to the boat; one for each passenger. The little co2 waste packs are pretty lightweight. Better yet, wear it on your waist.


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
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