This week I am not employed by anyone.

As I have stated before, my interest in the F16 is more from a personal point of view then any professional associations I may have.

Sorry the "this week" is a politician speaking and only part of the answer, as you well know.

Well Wayne as recent experience has shown comments made on here seem to be taken out of context and twisted and turned so I am reluctant to divulge my complete personal situation here.

Thats fine by me but on the other hand you are a professional sailor and from your demeanor in the thread, you had a hidden agenda. I still think there is more to your thinking than what you are admitting.

Now if you had said I've been tasked by Nacra to look at the F16 market we would have welcomed you and given you as much information you ever need, after all for the major manufacturers to be intersted in us is a real breakthrough.

To try and manipulate a market by imposing yours or your employers views by the one and only communications ( forum )form we as F16 members have is a different matter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think you should go back to the thread in question and read it from the start. Then come back and talk to me.

My name is Glenn Brown.

I have no financial ties to any sailing equipment manufacturer. I am a financial member of no sailing organization other than ISAF directly.

I had been dreaming of a new F16 in my future, as the sheeting forces on my Tornado are excessive, and it's a bear to trailer and wheel around the beach, I've never been in great shape, and I am getting older.

I don't currently own an F16. I am not a member of the F16 class.

I believe it is disgraceful to respond to a reasonable suggestion to better the class with personal attacks against the character of the proponent, while claiming the forum should be reserved for scientific discourse.

I believe that the F16 class is "Crossing the Chasm" from a startup class to an established class, and that the leaders that serve the class best in the startup phase are not usually the best for growth. (Geoffrey Moore, Crossing the Chasm)

I believe that the F16 class has found a unique niche, and has the possibility to grow into a major class.

I believe the F104 is in the same niche.

I believe that at most one will become a major class.

I believe time has shown again and again that technology does not win. Technology is just an opportunity to for marketing (Seth Goglin, talking at Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6909078385965257294 ) Good marketing wins.

I believe the F16 class should be marketing itself to major manufacturers, because they aren't going to build both F16's and F104's, and the one they do build has won the marketing game. The other will wither and die.

I believe the F16 class should be actively pursuing major manufacturers, and be open to addressing any reservations they may have about the class, such as reasonably achievable weight, or ISAF status.

2c,
--Glenn

well said

caveat.. Im an early F16 supporter and the one who in the early days argued for lighter boats...

Yes we know the uniqueness of the F16 it was all part of the first discussions..

The other option you "missed" is for the sailors to market to sailors.. This is btw how the class started..

I would also suggest with a push we could qualify as a "National" class at least in Australia.. I suggest if the titles were held in an accessible area we could drag boats from 4 or 5 states (Possibly get boats from WA, SA, Qld, NSW, Vic)..This would exceed the 3 states required for "National Class" status.. Just need the Au class structure to be finalised and we could walk into that YA and get the status..

Im also not sure about ISAF "International" status.. I know we must be close to achieving the base level of continental fleets to qualify, not sure about required numbers per continent.. However ISAF "International Class" status is a double edged sword.. So I would look long and hard before jumping on that wagon..

Macca's hidden agenda would be simular to mine. Keen to have a boat to race one up, race with his girlfriend when she is available and teach his kid (and for me, future children) how to sail in the future.

At the moment, I see a class where it's CURRENT manufactures can not meet min weight. Would it not be smarter if the min weight was even 115kg. I mean next to no boats re coming in at 107. Brand new Blades are hitting the water at 112 to 113. Keep the boats as they are if you like and add a few kg of lead to equalise each boat to 115 kg. Hell mose of you are probably racing over 115kg which means the difference to you would be zero.

If the class is not even serious or the slightest bit profesional about their class rules, I see exploitation, sky rocketing prices and or rule changes in the future if the class even begins to reach a level which will capture the interest of serious racers.

I like the boat, want to become part of the class, but will not invest money or time into it when all I can see for the class is instability as it grows or remaining the internets bigest class with few boats on the water.

Good luck with your class. I will not be joining you in the near future. May play with the Taipan 4.9 class instead, where I can be guarenteed a profesional run class with real fleet numbers (in AUS atleast) and competitive racing.

Sorry for my harsh words, but hopefully it may be constructive for some without blinkers on. Shame, kind of liked the look of Garry's Blade.

And it goes on and on.. No matter how often you knock those same arguments over, the muppets pop up again with the same drivel. Everybody-2, please read the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt and remember.. Dont feed the trolls.

Ahh, the old I don't like your point of view so you must be evil routine....

Steve comes in here with a clear, well thought response that is not attacking anyone and you respond with that...

Who is the "troll" here then?

Have any manufacturers actually contacted the F16 Governing Council through appropriate channels to discuss this?

(where "this" = the apparent weight issue)

Sorry, I have been away for a bit (Still away but between regattas) and am currently catching up with what's happening on catsailor.

Please Rolf, let me know which part is "drivel"

I'll respond to that Stephen, but I have written macca off completely as a very cunning and slick first rate troll.

The topics you raised just now have been discussed at length without coming anywhere for the last week. It has been very frustrating to see these arguments be raised, refuted and then raised again, over and over. It is pretty insulting to call us non-professional and to say what you say without having a stake in the class. The class at large is happy with the weight and dont see any reason to raise it. If you or anybody else want it raised, you need to become a class member and submit a proposal for a change in the class rules. If a builder wants, it, he can do the same, no problem. This has been chanted at macca continuously for the last week, and now you come back and start it all over again. Having an argument is OK, but when it clearly is not going anywhere, continuing like you do now is nothing else than trying to spread fud, which is very negative for the class. If you dont want to get into the class, fine, but it is pretty impolite to come here saying what you just did.

Now I have repeated this for the n'th time, and I am done.

Apologies Rolf, As you know I have not been here for more than a week and am reading posts that may be quiet old to most now.

However I stick to my guns in saying I can not invest in a class with rules so loose and out of touch. F16 members sugest we by a boat then propose an amendement to the rules.... Dose that realy sound like a smart option. I am over this too as I do not see a lot of sence or knowledge coming from many supporting the F16 class here. Therefore I will have a chat to Phil when I get back and may have a chat to Marcus also.

If you guy are happy to stay a very small class, then you are welcolme to it and I am sure I am welcome not to be a part of it. I really feel for the manufactures though who are being hurt by the class' stuborn views. They are in the business of selling numbers, not producing and small class to suite only a monority of sailors. The F16 concept has so much potential. It may be a different class / formula that may benifit from such a concept in (1 man or 2 man spin cat with realist weight.) the future.

Enjoy
Stephen

Now thats not nice Rolf, (unless its a compliment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and a troll in Norwegian means: really nice person)

Stephen,

For example Matt McDonald is on record in the other thread that his new boats in full 2-up attire and without any upgrades like a carbon mast are coming in at 110 kg. That will make them underweight when fitted with a carbon mast alone, a claim that is reflected in the carbon masted VWM Blade coming in underweight at the GC.

Why do you ignore that ?

Also we are all refering really enthousiasticly to the GC CHECKED weight data when we must also underscore that ALL boats that had previously been measured by the same measurer under controlled conditions in a shed at the beginning of the season (=dry boats) were then found to be about 2-2.5 kg lighter. The data gethering at the GC was a control measurement and not an official measuring of the boats. Sand and water clinging to the boats does make them heavier.

So I would move to view the claim that :"... Brand new Blades are hitting the water at 112 to 113 kg ..." with some caution.

There is in fact more evidence for the claim that they (with alu masts) are actually hitting the water for the first time at 110 kg. Of course other boats like converted Taipans come in lighter as shown using the 2001 Taipan Nationals data. The situation is in fact alot more nuanced then you make it out to be.

With respect to professionality, it is actually you and some others who are not professional here as you have been referred to official channels and procedures to propose and advance a rule change but refuse to take it. If you are not a F16 class member then just find a F16 member (like Marcus ?) who will effect the proposal for you. It is not like teh F18 class or the Tornado class is any different in this respect or can any non-member propose rule changes there ? So why are we held to a higher standard then the others ?

If this F16 class is not for you then we are all okay with that and wish you the best of enjoyment in another class of your choice.

Let agree to disagree.

Wouter

Mine was unofficially weighed in underweight.. by a few kgs..

Steve,
I hope the regatta is going well for you. It would be interesting to hear how its going.

I just want to clarify something on the issue of weight of boats:


When the Viper came out in Zandvoort it weighed 137kg.

Following this a statement was made by AHPC identifying how 12kg could be removed from that weight
to make it 125kg. I think this has alrady been posted somewhere on this forum. Whether this weight has been achieved or not we won't know until one is weighed.

Similarly the boat Formula Catamarans took to Zandvoort was heavier than the class min.at 111kg
It was one of the first boats out of the mould and following detailed analysis of the weights
it was obvious just as with the Viper there was potential weight saving.

I've just taken delivery of a Blade platform and boards and have been comparing weights with the one that went to Zandvoort and I have already measured a saving of 5kg. This is not with bathroom scales but calibrated professional digital scales.

There is no increase in cost for this saving and given I can see probably 2 or 3 kg more that could
be saved I'm expecting the boat to come in on or below min weight.


Now as you would know Marcus put up a post indicating he did not think he could get to min weight.
However I've been studying the weight aspect of the design from the beginning and together and I think
we should have it licked.

This weight reduction trend is quite normal as the first boats are freqyuently a bit heavier as the build
process is bedded in.

When you get back I'd be happy to kick around the different philosophies over a beer.

Regarding your needs- if the Taipan best suits your needs then I wish you well and will even
keep an eye out. In fact I've almost got one finished that I stopped to do the Blade project and you
can have that just for material cost.

Regards,
Phill

Good news Phil, I will keep an eye on how all this progresses. Will have to sell the F18 before moving on which is not proving easy at the moment.

As for sail Auckland, we are not having a good regatta. The crew (boat owner) is suffering from a twisted pelvis and is reciving physio every second day. He is having a lot of trouble getting in and out on trap, therfore I am trapping downwind whilst working the main upwind. His mainsheet system is tappered and is not holding at all in the ratchet so is very hard work. We are getting smashed on the upwind because I can not get the boat into the groove by myself. He has 4 days to recover enough for the Worlds or it will be more of the same.

Anyway, beats being at work or watching the Worlds from the shore.

Will talk when I get back.