I see a very negative thing by not having an open forum with moderation. Do you? How would you suggest that be handled? (I also see a need for a F16 members forum)

Maybe I was not clear, I am suggesting getting our own privatley owned forum for paid/confirmed/official class members where official decisions and dicussions that regard to official class business.
On that forum I would only allow first and last name registrations and attach the sail number to your user profile. Make sure your location and specific boat you sail is also attached to your user profile.
I would sub forums within the forum for make specific.
Taipan
Stealth
Blade
One offs
A regional subforum
America
Europe
Asia
Australia
Middle East.
For sale
Wanted

Something we have total control over the content posted. Although there should be no problems because once your profile is created your posts will be obviously attached to you. In this sense it is a lot harder to "hide" behind a screen name so you are responsible for the content posted.

I am not suggesting closing this forum, by no means. If it were not for this forum I would have never learned about the class. But like I said we are at a point where we need more control over our official business and we cannot let a few sour apples ruin it for the rest of us.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No one is obligated to reply to stupid jackass posts that ANYONE puts on here. I take the bait sometimes on the main forum but then kick myself for doing it after. Lack of self-control in resisting the urge to take the bait when someone writes something stupid is not enough of a reason to have a closed forum.

BTW... I ain't got no stinkin measurement cert for my boat so I guess I am not part of the class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't do a moderator either- that is the way it works on the Yahoo F-boat forum and it is annoying and that forum sucks compared to this one- mostly in format and also somewhat in content.

I do agree with the idea of transparency though- require an identifiable signature so people know who is saying what

Actually Patrick by owning a boat makes you part of the class. I dont think anyone in the US has a cert yet.

I figured... just taking the rules verbatim <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Moderation is censorship, hence I am opposed to it.

I take it you were referring to my suggestion on the "other" topic.

That comment was brought on by my strong belief that another forum, hosted on our own F16 website, that is completing open to anyone wanting to post, will bring a quick death to this forum, which is a good thing after this last week of hell.

My theory is that a lot of the pain we get here is caused by ppl that are looking through the whole of the catsailor forum, not necessarily looking for a fight, but commenting on items they have no vested interest in (ie. are not class members). This means their comments are not thought through with the class in mind and/or are lacking a solid understanding of how the class was formed and its reasons for existing.

Creating a new, OPEN forum on our website will remove the tendency for anyone who is just mindlessly looking through the catsailor forum to be inclined to click on our link and be presented with topics to post to if they have a bright idea that isn't thought through.

I'd like to clarify that I don't think the original post of that "other" topic was too inflammatory, and I think it was dealt with properly in the first couple of pages.

Mary, I think you've mis-read that whole "other" topic. Many times was it reinforced by class members with boats, me included, that an increase in weight at this point in time was considered detrimental to the class. Other topics were raised, beyond the scope of the original post, and this is what has caused the majority of the heated discussion.

It is the only thread I've ever read that I thought should be closed by a moderator because it was getting very heated over topics that were not part of the original discussion, AND I'm even opposed to censorship!

May I suggest to the GC that our own OPEN forum be created on our website, and then let it be. Don't close this one, just create an alternative. I predict the migration of F16ers and truly interested parties to the new forum will be rapid and threads like the "other" one will be few and far between. My only suggestions on the format of the new forum would be to have full names and F16 activity/interest as compulsory input on the registration form (but nicknames will be shown on posts) and it should be thoroughly open to anyone wanting to post that can provide that valid information.

I think we need to have an open forum to attract new members and allow them access to existing F16 owners. We are the people that prospective F16 sailors need to interact with so they can understand the advantages of our boat that can be sailed 1 or 2 up.

As for the counterproductive posts that we have recently fallen victim of, we simply need to pounce on this activity in a positive and simplistic manner. Verbose replies are what these people want and thrive on. These people simply need to be discredited and exposed in pubic. This needs to be done in a short and quick reply.

Now, I want to play the devils advocate. Some productive feedback was brought forward in this exchange. I believe it is critical to know what people outside the group think so we do not make decisions in a vacuum.

If we are at the point where big decisions need to be made then I believe this should be done in a private format such as email or a meeting at a major event. Those that can not attend a meeting could post votes via email. By doing it in this manner, we can prevent the poison from those with no F16 experience influencing critical decisions.

Thoughts???

Neville

So it looks in a mini straw poll that the idea of an official open forum based with access by class members only from our own website is the way foward, I for one would back that.

OK next question then, do we need to put anything foward to the GC or can it be done by just doing it as per Robi has volunteered with the blessing of the committee or do we need to do it all official like, ie have a vote with only boat owners having an input ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

We have a Open F16 forum, this here, and I like it for the knowledge which is collected over the years. One heated discussion now is not enough to throw all achievement over board which we have found here. My English is not so fluent that I can have in-depth discussions all the time, but when I enter catsailor I feel like coming home. The F16 and the open forum here are the most lively ones for catsailors I found so far. Also I have a look at the German F18, A-cat and swiss F18-ht forums but none of them is as informative when it comes to technical discussions like the catsailor forums.
Votings about F16 class business is dealt well with a closed forum like last year before the global challenge, all other topics could be discussed publicly.
Does anyone have numbers how many F16 class members are found here at the forum, and how many members we have totally?
Maybe it's only a minority which feels we are in trouble, and most don't care about. If the class and the rules are solid we will survive such agigation easily.

Well, since Rick and I are members of the class by virtue of owning an F16 (and since he doesn't REALLY want to sell it) I guess I am as entitled as anybody to post opinions here -- or on whatever forum you have wherever it is. Ergo, you wouldn't be losing me by moving it.

I totally agree that voting on rules changes or class policies should be handled in a private forum that is accessible only to class members. I'm sure Rick can provide that for you, along with the e-mail list feature.

But I think that DISCUSSIONS about rule changes and policies should be open to the public on this forum, as they have always been. It helps bring in new ideas and perspectives from people both inside and outside the class.

That is one of the great things about this class and this forum. The exposure is what is attracting more people to the class. As the saying goes for celebrities, "Any publicity is good publicity."

Censorship is not the way to go. The class members are perfectly capable of moderating this forum by simply not arguing with people. I was not supporting Macca. I was just saying that if you don't like his ideas, you should just tell him to go pound salt. If I told the Thistle class I thought it could be improved by adding a deck to it, I'm sure they would tell me to get a Flying Scot.

If you don't have enough self-control to avoid arguing with somebody, just click on your "Ignore" button for that poster, so you don't see what he says, and then you won't be tempted to respond.

If you want somebody to moderate the forum and censor posts that are deemed to be counterproductive to the class, who would that moderator be? Everybody has a different idea of what should be deleted so that other people cannot read it.

I give sailors credit for being intelligent enough to be allowed to see what everybody says and decide what is crap and what is worth considering or debating. I wouldn't want to think that maybe ideas have been presented that some "moderator" has decided I am not adult enough to view and has therefore deleted for my own good or "for the good of the class."

I am sure there are people within the class who have personal interests in controlling the direction of the class. So, again, how do you decide who would be the moderator who is going to have the power to censor comments?

The ignore button is a very handy tool, and censorship is a very slippery slope.

The question of who the moderator should be is not difficult. It would be a person elected by the class, responsible to the class, operating on guidelines decided by the class. If the class did not like the way this person ran his office, he would be replaced.

With the noise (to say it politely) to relevant information ratio we see here, we loose many, many, more members than we gain. The attrition rate is very high and not good for the class at all. It only takes one person crapping all over the place to make a stink, it is as easy as that and nothing noble about it to be blunt.

ROFLMAO!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That's damn near impossible! You will end up with a concensus of 1 or 2 people.

I abstain!

Right, so how do you elect a government, or for that sake the GC then? It is just the same thing.

I disagree. The moderator is a an arbitrator. Elected officials are chosen on their (supposed) character and personal initiative.

Most people in the class do not know the other people in the class (on a worldwide basis, at least), and we know little about each other. So how would you know whom to elect? And you would basically be electing a dictator who would then have control over the class because of his censorship capabilities. So the class would not have control over him. How would you know what has been censored? Only the person who has been censored would know. And if he protested, the protest could be censored, as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You know Pete, this is really very simple. What this all boils down to is a choice between who and what we want to see here. Do we want good F16 stuff and people involved with the class, or do we want what we have seen the last week? You can not get both, they are mutually exclusive as the good people dont hold up with this at length. I know that I will not keep coming here if we are to go trough this time over time. This is _not_ the first time we have these threads and they are a detriment to the class.

I think debate and controversy are GOOD things. I just don't see how they are detrimental to the class. I don't get it.

If you think you are losing class members, it is not because of a forum -- it is because people are not devoting their time to building local fleets of F16's -- unless this is just a "virtual" class.

Again, I disagree. What we saw in the last week is unavoidable. It happens in the "real" world constantly. Why else do you think politicians have such poor reputations? They are the people who are willing to get down in the mud and slog it out with each other! The winner gets all the marbles!

Before you throw the baby out with the bath water, use your "ignore" button for awhile and avoid those threads which are objectionable or uninteresting.

By going to a censored forum, you will be limiting the number of participants, making it easier for the "undesirable" element to sieze control.

I fear, that in human interaction, the main goal is always control! At least by a few.

You are wrong Mary, just ask around a bit and see what the experiences are. Controversy can be good, but constant controvery and aggrevation makes people who wants to sail the boats and have a good time stay away from both the forum and the class. If you want to, I can point you to the people who can confirm this.

How "virtual" does the class you are a part of feel? How is the F16 class more "virtual" then the Wave class you and Rick are building?