Are there any spitfire sailors out there? if so why did you choose the Spitfire over one the the F16 models

Gareth

I think the Spitfires came out before most of the other F16's. Dermot can tell you all about them. Great boats and built for big wind, so if you sail in a very windy area, you will like it.

Have you seen their video, "What did you do on the weekend" yet?

"Spituba" is also great. I wish we could make something of equal quality and contents for the F16. Notice how Spituba focuses on fun and social activities.. Great PR video.

Other reasons to choose a spit must be a local fleet, better used boat market or one design racing?

What Tim says, expanded with the fact that the Spits has a very good racing cirquit in England and Northern France. Obviously, people also by a certain type of boat because it has an active class.

Indeed, a very nice boat that Spitfire.

Wouter

Gareth - you would probably be better off asking on www.spitfiresailing.org.uk The Spitfire does not really have any aspirations to be sailed solo; although you can it would be outside of any class racing unless entered as a F16? in a Cat Open. So in that respect the two are quite different animals. Spitfire strict one design and high standard of fleet racing in the UK. The Spitfire's have quite a big fleet down Eastbourne way I believe, not sure about the F16's.
Spitfire's also don't have endless internet discussions going round and round serving no purpose.

I was not going to mention your last argument..

Gareth, every time I see your location of Brighton I get a little nostalgic. Great times there in the Fiddler's Elbow pub! Wish I could go back but they put our crews up in Crowley now... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks guys,

Although this isn't for me, at least not this year, its for a mate in Dubai who is thinking of getting one.

Cheers

Gareth

There are 3 Spitfires (I think), already in Dubai racing, and 3 Blades as well. Great fleet of other cats too. He should talk to those guys and maybe he can get a ride on each, compare and contrast, etc.

I think that the others have already given all the answers !
Apart from the Stealth, there was no similar cat on the UK or French scene. In Ireland, we had been sailing Dart Hawks and Dart 18s. The Spitfire fitted in right between them. It is one design - at that time every Stealth built was diferent and some carbon masts were breaking. Some of the top UK F18 sailors were racing Spitfires a few years ago - so the standard is very high.
Also the Spitfire is nearly always sailed 2 up. Sometimes in Club racing, if we don't have a crew available, we leave off the jib and race singlehanded. We have 7 now in Blessington. As far as I know, there are no F16s in Ireland, apart from a Stealth in Northern Ireland, which is not being sailed, and is probably going back to the UK - the owner now has a Spitfire.

I have a Spitfire, and considered the F16 (Stealth) when I bought it in 2004. The solo aspect wasn't important to me at the time, the Stealths differed from one to the next (low resale value), and F16 wasn't really off the ground at that time. I have thoroughly enjoyed the Spitfire, but have since bought a Shadow (last November). I went through the same debate again, only this time wanting to go solo. I settled on a Shadow due the one-design nature, good circuit in UK, and it's even lighter than F16 and built to last, etc... (and high resale value). I also had to consider that I sail in an estuary, which is infested with sand banks, and even worse, mooring lines in the main channel: this made kick-up rudders mandatory, taking away what I felt to be a major strength of the Stealth. If you are thinking of solo sailing, I'd have to say I tried the Spitfire solo before deciding to buy a Shadow. I think the Spitfire is a specialist in its role, and anything else is a compromise (e.g. I wouldn't want to right it solo). Given that the Shadow and Spitfire are both designed by Loday White, it's obvious that neither is intended to do the role of the other... so if I want to sail solo, I'd go for Shadow, if I wanted two-up, I'd go for Spitfire, and if I wanted the flexibility of both, I'd go for the Stealth.

I wanted flexibility and went Stealth. I love the fact that I can sail on my own or with a crew wether a mate or even better one of my young sons. Nothing better than having a 7,8 or 10 year old trapezing next to you hanging onto the spin sheet.
I have to say if I truly wanted single I would go A Class or Foiling Moth and if I wanted UK traveller for 2 up good sized people then Hurricane, and European then sadly have to say F18. Though ultimately a Tornado got to love them! (Please support them, they have to stay in the Olympics instead of those other slow things)

Will,

which club is your home?

Interesting post Simon

In the USA, the
Shadow equates to the Nacra F17 (single purpose single hander with chute)

Spitfire has no equivalent in the US market (single purpose two man high performance 16 footer) The Aussie equvalent would be a Taipan... no spin

F16 Stealth has the USA imported F16 Taipan's and USA built Blades, perhaps one Stealth in the USA. (Dual function.. one or two up)

What is interesting to me is understanding the single purpose two up market niche eg the Spitfire or F18

Why would a team choose a Spitfire over an F18? Are the team weights the same? Was it just history that Spitfire got the market first... Does the lack of a local F18 builder in the UK and exchange rates give you this result?

Finally, what is the demographic and mind set of the sailors on the sloop rigged 16 footers... Is the Dart 18 still the dominant boat compared to the Hobie 16? Are these sailors AT All interested in moving up to the spinaker classes?

In the USA... the Hobie 16 racers (no Dart 18's) are Slowly moving to F18's while keeping their H16s. (west coast trend) .... Many racers tried the Hobie 20 and went back to their Hobie 16 several years ago (east coast trend) Few east coast H16 sailors have wanted to jump up to the Tiger or any F18.

Is this similar to the UK experience.

Thanks for any insight
mark

I talked to Chris Sproat last year in Texel. He sails the Spitfire since years and races allot, see the Aruba video.
His reason is that he and his crew are to light for the F18.
Sailing the F18 with the small sailplan and lead must be pain.

Interestingly enough, we are getting more and more inquiries from such teams and teams that have a F18 now but are more recreational sailors/racers. The latter appears to feel a little bit uneasy with the very competitive feel of the F18 class.

This is really an interesting growth market.

We just have to keep our course straight, keep doing what we are doing now and they will come in larger numbers.

Wouter

Hi Mark,

I think people would choose the Spitfire over F18 because of crew weight limits. Ditto for 2-up F16. F18 requires minimum crew weight of 150kg to use the larger sails without added penalty weight. While there is an overlap, the Spitfire (and F16) is probably the best option for the lighter crew looking for fun. Interestingly, LodayWhite have announced plans to launch an F18 this year. That should be very interesting, at least in the UK / Europe.

As for the 2-sail / 2-man cat scene in UK, Dart 18 was a stronghold, but it is slowly declining. I think most attrition is towards F18. There's still a hard-core of Dart sailors though, who like the one-design aspect, the great circuit of class events, and dare I say the 'simple' nature of the boats that in their opinion tests the sailors' skills rather than those of the technology. Those of us who have helmed from the wire, flying a hull and the kite, know what the Dartists are missing, as they lay on their front beams inching downwind... and we would not swap for the world!

As a recreational user, I'd go for the smaller, lighter boats. They are as fast as the F18s to every practical intent. While club racing, my Spitfire would often be in front of the club F18s. When I jumped on an F18 at the Nationals (crewing) I was in pretty much the same position relative to people of my skills (i.e. in a group a long way behind the good sailors!) but my point is that my position was due to relative skill rather than the boat.

I also found I could sail the Spitfire in 'silly' conditions, as like the F16s, the power is easily controlled. Which leaves the practical issues as a differentiator, and I'd rather lug 130kg (Spitfire) or 110kg (for a good F16) around the beach than 180kg for an F18. Can't leave that without saying that 99kg for the Shadow is fantastic! Maybe I am just getting old.

In the same position as you simon - wanting to be competitive one up, and two up in same boat (mainly just fun with kids, not always around though)!

Used to have a hurricane long time ago - and had H16 until last year - never tried it reefed and single handed though.

Is spitfire feasible singlehanded/single sail (I'm 90 kg)

Ideally want to go Fast........... again - miss hurricane sport+++

Suggestions??

Huw

In Dubai, we have 3 Spitfire’s & 3 Blades racing. I race a Blade, for me, the key reason was the boat weight & no min. crew weight. Two up with the wife, we weigh in at <110kg (so playing by the rules, we’re even too light for a H16 unless we go 3up). Two-up, we’ve raced in 20kn+ with some wins and without swimming. Usually from around 15kn and up we’ll sail two-up without the jib, which is an excellent option (though not sure what SCHRS we should be on??). Sailing 1-up, I’m about done at 15kn, just too lightweight for the power. Also sailing here are 3 Shadow’s. One of the other Blade sailors previously owned a Shadow, but in our typical winds of 10kn, he was just too heavy (~100kg) for it. He’s doing well 1-up on the Blade. One of the spitfires does race one-up, leaves the jib behind and is competitive. Spitfire or F16? Both excellent classes and best you try them both. If you’re in Dubai come up to the club (now “Mina Seyahi Yacht Club” I think, previously JASC) on a Friday and have a chat/sail.

Huw,

doing my best to be independent, and noting we are on an F16 forum(!)... Regarding Spitfire for use with kids - I was successful at a club level with a (small/light) 13-16yo crew. If your kids are smaller, they'll probably not have the power to control the kite, although I am tempted to say that if they're inclined to go out in stronger winds, I suspect they will also cope with the sheet loads. A comment specific to the Spitfire - you can double up the purchase on the mast rotation and downhaul, class-legally and easily. You could also add secondary blocks for the spinni, legal for long-distance races. All that makes it feasible for younger crew.

Spitfire solo? I'm 80kg dripping wet and decided it wasn't for me after trying it. I'm also not inclined to get fit for sailing (I'd rather go sailing), so I like lighter sheet loads as well. I think it would be difficult to right solo - I never managed it unless the crew was contributing too.

Your requirements sound suited to F16 - but then you might want to think about the size of the fleet, local activity, and resale values, in combination with how often you will sail solo / 2-up. However, I love the F16 concept.

As you are in the UK, think about Shadow. You cannot fit a jib, or second trapeze, but the spinni would be easily managed by a young crew. So, I'd suggest it is suited you solo, whether racing or pleasure, also to fast pleasure rides for you with a youngster, but not realistic for full-on racing in that configuration.

And being a small, light boat, it feels fast. Mine feels even more 'responsive' than the Spitti, and as fast, but I am yet to sail against my fellow club sailors who are still hibernating, so I am suspending final judgement.

Rather than put links here, I suggest you search for Shadow sailing forum, or British Spitfire Class Association, and seek input there too.

At the end of the day, a test sail or two may help you to decide.

Many thanks both
Will go to Ali Palace next week - Swell Cats first stop
Huw

Whilst continuing in this vein make sure you check out the prices for new sails/parts for the spit and shadow. You might think twice about buying one compared to F16's where there is more competition especially in the sails market. I think I heard that a new Spi for a spit is around the £800 mark where a Landy for a F16 is closer £600 and GP Sails Spi's are slightly cheaper again at present!!

There are many reasons we chose a Spitfire when we did, coming from an RS800 skiff we still wanted to go fast, very fast. The test ride in a force 4 blew us away we had to have one <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We wanted a new one (I like new boats) and being several thousand pounds we could not quite afford it.
I asked Reg White if I could trade in my RS against a new Spit. sadly they did not do trade ins.
The Spit had not long been launched and they were keen to promote it so Reg let me delay payment of a portion of the cost until I had sold my dinghy. Too good to miss, so we went for it.(dont ask for this now though!!!)
F18 at the time were dearer, much heavier to pull up our shingle beach and not really much faster. My crew has arthritis so lighter loads were needed too.
Since then the F18 has got massively faster with each new design so Im happy to stick with my one design, and not see my boat de-value so much.
Interestingly enough the best thing about the class was and still is the friendly helpfull nature of the sailors.
It is a joy to meet up with them every month or so and race.
Many are now good friends. Reg White of course is a god. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Single-handed......? Ive done it in light winds which was fun and been left alone when I lost my crew in a 5 which was not <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
When I first bought there was no F16 circuit and I didnt like the look of the early Stealth with its sticky up front (like the later ones and the Blade though)
Definately try each design first, there is a boat to suit you out there!
happy sailing
Gary

Huw
If you ever want to test sail a Stealth F16 either email me on mark@sailwave.com or send a PM. Swansea/Mumbles is only a couple of hours away.

Naaaaah thats tosh, about £600 inc Vat, bought one recently.
How much did it cost you to have yours altered?
I recall you have made it flatter like a Spit!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

good sailing Mark
Gary

Just curious as you have bought a new Spitfire spi recently. Are Hyde Sails still building them, and have the luff now been reinforced with a heavier cloth or a spectra line? There was some talk about the luff stretching badly some time ago and I was wondering it this still was an issue or if it was a just a specific batch of spis?

Hi Rolf
A couple of years ago now the cloth was changed to a more 'slippery' type. The problem was mainly that the downhaul line was rubbing on the cloth, particularly on port hand drops and the friction was wearing little 'burns' in the area below the bottom patch.
The very early Spits launched the kite from a bag on the tramp so this didn't happen. It only showed up when the chutes were added.
The class and builders agreed to supply all new kites in the new cloth, older kites could still be used and a big discount was offered if anyone wanted to upgrade to a new one.
It sorted the problem and the kites wear much better and slip into the chute better too <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hydes still supply the sails.

gary

dont think there was a luff stretching issue

'Fraid there was <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> - But they have a luff line fitted now <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No worries Gary, I only thought I'd mention it because a friend of mine was looking to buy a Spit but when they looked into the costs of new bits he thought they were rather expensive but I don't know where he got his information from. Like wise may be I should clarify that I have had my main re-cut (flattened) and have also ordered a new Spi from GP Sails which will be of a similar shape to the Spit as Grant has had some experience making Spit Spi's.
P.S You and the Spit Travellers are more than welcome to join us at Mumbles for one of our Opens, I sent Alex an email weeks ago but haven't heard anything since.

ooh though that was always there, mine are.

yes all boat bits seem expensive <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
would love to do some Mumbling one year, there are a fair few Spit opens this year though.
Maybe we could get together next year and have a joint open?
Think Alex is on holiday. lucky s-d.

gary

I'll echo that all boat bits seem expensive. A few handy tips: Don't bang your boards and rudders into rocks or mooring lines - sorry, seem obvious, but it took me a while to sail that little bit more carefully. Or find someone who is good at repairs! As for booms and spinni poles, let's just say there are other ways of aquiring black anodised tubing, and a couple of hours later you've got some very cheap spares. (and when you have spares, you seem to overcome the need for them!). Spinni: Grant Piggot does a fantastic 'club racing' spinni (same shape and material). And even though his prices are competitive, Swell's are not that much more - nowhere near £600! He also made me a jib, cheaper than Swell's and lasting many times longer. A club-mate has a main from Grant as well - which means of course you can have a fatter head if you want. All at competitive prices (and again, your official sails will last for years if used only in the official events). You'll also find Cat Bitz are doing more spares as time goes by. You only HAVE to have the official parts for official events - the rest of the time, use your imagination!