I-20's carry chutes uphill in less than 5 in distance races.

>> I would like to find out what the exact definition of a spinnaker is, as well as a jib, from ISAF`s point of view.

Defination spinnaker/gennaker :

All trangular sails having a midgirth that is 75 % of the foot of the sail are spinnakers/gennakers

Don't need to give the definition of the mainssail here.

Than what we are left with are jibs, so the defination of teh jib can be written down as :

All triangular sails NOT having a midgirth that is 75 % of the foot of the sail are jibs.


All "trouble" can be traced back to these definitions.


>>If it`s due to the fact that it`s roller-furled,

No, has nothing to do with it. the only descriminating difference is the midgirth measurement.

>> If it`s because it`s flatter than an assymetric I would be surprised - define "fullness" -

No agian, only midgirth. You may cut a gennaker or spi as full or flat as you want to.


>>My question is, at what point does an assymetric spinnaker become a hooter, is it :
a) the fact that it furls

(wouter) No

b) the concave leech

(wouter) You just loose sail area by doing that.

c) the fact that it is flatter (if so, at what "fullness/flatness" does it change definitions ? How do you control that ?

(wouter) No again.

d) the fact that it can be used to sail higher than a beam reach

(Wouter) No


There is only one aspect that determine wether a headsail is a spinnaker or a hooter and that is the midgirth measurement.

When this is less than 75 % of the foot => hooter
When this is more than 75 % of the foot => asym spi or gennaker.


>> The Hooter type sail probably suits this role better than an assymetric.

Depends on what course you are sailing at the moment.

Wouter

So, what is the "ideal" distance from the bridle to the end of the spinnaker-pole? Since I'll be rigging from the bow-beam I won't need nearly as much material. I plan on "making due" with a couple fiberglass windsurfer masts cut down to length.

Also- when sailing upwind in very light air, is there a reason that the jib should be furled while the Hooter is in use? Is it just to "open up the slot" because the 'pole is too short?
With a long enough 'pole, could (should?) all 3 sails be used to windward?

I'd like to stay with a non-furling jib on my G-Cat since it can be so much larger when attached to the bow-beam instead of the bridle.

Rick for the public record :

>> Now, since the class is still in its infancy, this is the time to get things straightened out.


Actually the class in now in its childhood, with 35 registered votes equally devided over the three continents and an EXISTING gennaker fleet of twice that amount. A big surprise was the rapid growth of south asia. 11 boats in 18 months.

What the class needs now wrapping up the ballot and absloute peace and tranquility on the rules front. We are growing right now and "experiments" will now do nothing more than confuse new sailors. Sorry Rick, maybe a little further down the line.


>> there was obviously no one there representing the other side.

Wrong there was and represented it quite actively too.

>> Debates require opposing views.., and while I could be wrong since I wasn't there, it would seem there was only one side represented adequately.


No true, this point saw many argument both pro and cons but the solution lay midway.


>> Since 33% of the class obviously must concur that the reacher is a flat spinnaker then is should be allowed..,


Rick, with all due respect but this is rather a claim than a reality.


>>Shouldn't the American contingency have some say in this debate? I think so!


As a matter of fact; The most campaigner to allow hooters was Australian and the most active campaigner against Hooters was American. The Europeans were actually rather quiet in that discussion.

Rick, you make assumptions that are based on guess work and "perceptions about the others". Obviously this a shacky basis to base statements on.


>>I am also fascinated by the word "genaker" used in this debate. I believe this is a hybrid name coming from the combination of two words – Genoa and Spinnaker. What is a Genoa? Duh! A jib. So, by the very description of the word the Genaker should be banned or rendered useless by ISAF and Texel as well.

No, because a spinnaker is by common practice a symmetrical headsail with a very full head (shoulders) for pure downwind sailing while a Genoa is a fuller cut jib sail with very narrow shoulders intended for all courses.

Asymmetric spis or gennakers combine the fullness of the spinnaker with the assymetricallyness of the genoa resulting in a full cut headsail that can be used on course ranging from downwind to reaches. Ergo the name Gennakers


>>It is quite obvious that the outside U.S. influences have never seen, nor have any idea how and why reachers work.

I refer back to my comment on who was the stunchest campaigner pro. The french Club med and the 60 ft tris have been using screachers for a long time now as well as the W60 monohulls.


>>Yet outside our boundaries there are those that think reachers are only used on big boats and are useless around the buoys. If that is the case, why are you digging in your heels and resisting with so much malevolence.


I don't think they are useless, honestly ! Just untested, unknown, un fairly rated in Europe, (much) underrepresented in the our current fleet, unnecessary and unlike the F18 which will be our open class direct competition.


>> So, if someone shows with a Hooter, you say they can race, but not be scored. Why? What are you fearing? Let the trials begin,


Rick, the class could also easily have said that you could not race it all. We are helping you here, don't bite me while doing so.


>>if this is to be a class with a fast and good future.

That future is already secure and "despite" the gennakers (little joke)


>>One more point: I would like to re-open debates on pole-length.


And the class is also not going to open the debate on the pole lengths. We had that discussion several weeks ago and we gave it several weeks for outsiders to react to it. At one time we have to close of the debate with a decision and that is the rules ballot which will close in within 25 hours.

I'm really sorry Rick but the class has spoken and will have decided soon; even I can't go back on them. As a Tornado class official you must surely understand that.

Kind Regards,

Wouter

Thanks Rick, Wouter & all others who have either shed some light or posed new questions on the subject.
Wouter, you answered my original question with this :

"There is only one aspect that determine wether a headsail is a spinnaker or a hooter and that is the midgirth
measurement.

When this is less than 75 % of the foot => hooter
When this is more than 75 % of the foot => asym spi or gennaker."

Now, I`m not an F16 sailor so I`m not too concerned over the issues which have arisen between Rick & Wouter
regarding this issue, and I had no intention of things getting this far out of hand !

Rick, as Wouter says, you can have as flat cut as you like, you can roller-furl the thing, even stuff it in your
underpants if you like, whatever works for you. Just comply to the 75% rule and all will be forgiven.
Surely you can develop the hooter to conform to this rule without hurting it`s performance too much ?
It can then be called an assymetric spinnaker and you can go racing.

Cheers
Steve

Pole length is largely determined by the sail, or more particularly, the foot length of the sail. I recently switched from an F18/heavy (21 sq metres or about 228 sq ft) to a Nacra 6.O chute of roughly 350 sq ft, and with a 12' pole, my sheeting point went from the front beam to the rear beam. The smaller sail actually wanted a slightly shorter pole, in the 10' range, to sheet to the shroud and cut down on lee helm when trying to sail hot. The Formula rule of not more than (I think I'm remembering correctly) 30" past the bows is a good rule of thumb for a moderate, relatively bulletproof setup. Of course, I'm one to speak: My new pole extends very nearly FIVE FEET past the bows of my P-19...oh well...it'll be fun!

sail fast