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Update on boats for 2012 Olympics #133786
02/28/08 05:17 PM
02/28/08 05:17 PM
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Worthy Offline OP
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See below from http://sailjuiceblog.com/2008/02/27/urgent-battle-between-rya-isaf/

Quote


Good news, but also a lot of bad news, for sailors who want to see a re-vote of the slate of 10 sailing Events being lined up for the Olympic Regatta in Weymouth 2012.

If you’ve been following this blog since last October, you’ll be familiar with the whole Estoril saga, where the Men’s Keelboat won a narrow victory over the Multihull, and the Women’s Match Racing just edged out the Women’s Skiff. (If you don’t know what I’m talking about, dig back through the SailJuice archives for October and November 2007.)

SailJuice was not a fan of either of these outcomes, and reported on the eleventh-hour change in voting procedure, a cunning move that was led by Charley Cook from US Sailing, whose agenda was to see the keelboats remain in the Games. (Fair play to you, by the way, Charley. I don’t agree with what you did, but you were there to do a job for your country.)

The Royal Yachting Association has since led a campaign to get the voting re-opened, and made a submission to ISAF to have a revote take place at the mid-year meeting. Last week the ISAF Executive Committee sat down in Switzerland to discuss what ‘urgent’ matters should be discussed at the mid-year meeting which takes place in Qingdao this May.

Most of the urgent matters were over relatively trivial issues, but the one that engaged them a bit more was the RYA’s submission. The Exec referred the matter to ISAF Constitution Committee (chaired by David Lees and vice-chaired by a certain Charley Cook) to get a definition of ‘urgent’. The Constitution Committee debated, did not come to a unanimous conclusion, but ultimately deemed the RYA’s submission as non-urgent.

When SailJuice spoke to Rod Carr at the end of last week – before he had had a chance to speak to ISAF – he was perplexed, to put it mildly. “We’re non-plussed by the decision not to consider these matters urgent. By November we believe it will be too late to change, so how could you consider it not urgent? I’m not a lawyer, this is just common sense.”

The reason for Rod being non-plussed was that he was under the impression that the International Olympic Committee was expecting ISAF to send in the final list of 2012 Event for IOC approval and rubber-stamping within the next few weeks. So for ISAF to pronounce this issue as non-urgent and shoving the submission back to November would mean the 10 Events were already set in stone. It was a two-fingered salute by ISAF to the RYA, and anyone else who felt short-changed by the voting in Estoril.

So you can understand why Rod was a little vexed by this state of affairs.

Things improved the following week however, when Rod had a chance to speak to Jerome Pels, the newly installed ISAF Secretary General. Apparently there is still room and time for discussion after all, as Rod explained: “Everyone was assuming that both the details of Events and Equipment had to be submitted to the IOC by this year. ISAF has clarified this with the IOC and apparently this is not the case.”

So, it is still possible for the Events slate to be debated and even revoted at this November’s AGM.

A sigh of relief from Rod Carr then? Er, no, not really. “We think it [the vote last November] is a bad decision and that the proposal to reconsider these matters should still be considered urgent.”

Rod’s concern is that by the next AGM, any momentum for turning over the Estoril decision will be long gone. “By this November, many people will have kicked this issue into the long grass. They will have got over their shock and anger that they had when the decision was first announced, and increasingly people will say, ‘Oh well, never mind, let’s get on with what we’ve got.’”

To give you an example of what will happen before then, Rod believes that the RYA will have been forced to close down any funding for its younger sailors on the Olympic Development Programme. “We can’t justify paying out money for sailors on the off-chance that we might get a change of Olympic Events,” says Rod.

The RYA has stuck its neck out on this issue, but not before doing a lot of consulting with other national sailing authorities behind the scenes, to gauge the mood. Sufficiently buoyed by the offers of support, the RYA fired off its salvo against this decision at the end of last year. Yachting Australia has been another vocal opponent to the Estoril decision, and to a lesser extent the French federation, the FFV (although they seem to want to keep the multihull AND the keelboat, without seeming to offer much solution to the 11-into-10-doesn’t-go problem).

But Rod is wondering where the rest of the rebel uprising has gone. “We’ve done our bit, where are the rest? They’re saying things in private, and being very supportive behind the scenes. But talk is cheap. We’ve had our say, the Australians, the French and a few others have had their say about things. Now, if other people want something to change, then they need to speak out and make their case to ISAF.”

With November, rather than May, now being the last opportunity to debate the Olympic slate, ISAF is open to submissions until 1 August. But Rod says that is too late. He wants to see other nations nail their colours to the mast now.

“We’ve got a stretching target to get two-thirds – that’s 26 people - of the delegates to vote, to change last November’s decisions. The Austrians, Danes, UK, Australia, France, New Zealand are all on the record as wanting a vote.” Now it’s time for others to step up, he says.

Rod wants some of the smaller nations to follow their lead. “Let’s say you were one of the smaller nations, and you’re thinking, ‘do I need to put in a submission?’. You’re worried about the slate as it stands, so you say to yourself, ‘One of the big nations will put in a submission, and I’ll vote for that.’”

That won’t be good enough, says Rod. “You could say the Executive are well within their rights to leave things as they are. If only four or five nations put in a submission, it’s easy for them to tell themselves that ISAF represents more than a hundred nations, so there’s no big furore here.”

Indeed, when I spoke to Jerome Pels about this issue a couple of days ago, he made that very point, that from the ISAF perspective they see a lot of complaint at grass roots level but not much complaint from national authorities other than the RYA and Yachting Australia.

There is more to this, and I’ll come back to you with more detail from my conversation with Jerome in the next few days, but that should be enough for you to chew on for the time being.

A few months have passed since we discussed this issue. But it seems like a good time to reassess things again, particularly as the Tornado Worlds are going on in New Zealand right now. What’s your view? Do you think the RYA should quit yapping and let bygones be bygones? Or should Rod and his band of rebels continue to battle all the way through to this November?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Worthy] #133787
02/28/08 06:18 PM
02/28/08 06:18 PM

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Nothing too encouraging there. It would be one thing for the ISAF to admit they might have made a bad decision, but another for them to admit that they broke their own rules. I've seen no evidence that they give a toss about either.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Worthy] #133788
02/29/08 08:15 AM
02/29/08 08:15 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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The angers there Worthy but its pretty predictable what will happen. The Tornado worlds should not be in NZ at the moment it should have been moved to a cat friendly country that has quote [young and fit sailors]. The Tornado organisation has let down its own class by not sending a strong message. There would have been enormous press coverage if the Worlds were moved that would have been to Cat sailors benefit. I know they've changed their tune but the sailing board there are tossers. And don't start me on the American Sailing organisation <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: JeffS] #133789
02/29/08 05:18 PM
02/29/08 05:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Why do the New Zealanders want another vote? Didn't they vote against the Multi hull last time?

Darryn
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Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Darryn] #133790
02/29/08 05:45 PM
02/29/08 05:45 PM

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Because they ended up seriously embarrassed when the rationale behind their vote became public.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133791
02/29/08 06:27 PM
02/29/08 06:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Oh, wonder what it was, I will see if I can find it.

Darryn
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Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Darryn] #133792
02/29/08 07:38 PM
02/29/08 07:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Instead of looking at what boat should be dropped from the Olympics, why not look at it as far as what disciplins should be in the Olympics. May be we need to start with a clean sheet of paper.


Personaly I would like to see

Male Dinghy
Female Dinghy

Male Multi
Female Multi

Male Sail Board
Female Sail Board

Male Keel Boat
Female Keel Boat.

Then you can look at either Match Racing, Teams Racing, Long Distance or an Exhibition Class.

Once disiplins are decided, hold an evaluation event to decide classes.


Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133793
03/01/08 06:26 AM
03/01/08 06:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Quote
Because they ended up seriously embarrassed when the rationale behind their vote became public.

The rational behind the Irish vote was very simple.
"What Olympic Classes do our sailors sail in ?" "OK, We'll vote for those classes" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Dermot] #133794
03/01/08 09:44 PM
03/01/08 09:44 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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I can follow that logic Dermott and thats fair enough for Ireland but NZ as a nation was settled by people arriving on catamarans and has heaps of people sailing cats. America has heaps of people sailing cats with some of the biggest manufacturers of cats in the world and have won numerous medals, I also noticed the American Tornado team came 8th despite a DNF that would have been a huge relief to the American Sailing organisations. Imagine if they had won!
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: JeffS] #133795
03/02/08 10:17 AM
03/02/08 10:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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The 5th choice would be 2-handed dinghy-men & women.


Tom Siders
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Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Darryn] #133796
03/02/08 09:19 PM
03/02/08 09:19 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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It was morbidly hilarious. I wish I kept a copy of the response. Their committee made mention of the multi-hull favoring younger and more fit sailors and therefore not suited to their medal attempts(or something quite similar to that effect). Unbelievable. (To think, youth and fitness as a part of the Olympics...) That guy was around lead too long.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133797
03/02/08 09:23 PM
03/02/08 09:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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It sounds like some lead fell on his head. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Dlennard] #133798
03/02/08 10:34 PM
03/02/08 10:34 PM

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Details reported here (and elsewhere) back in November -

http://sailjuiceblog.com/2007/11/30/young-fit-sailors-in-the-olympics-whatever-next/

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133799
03/03/08 01:42 AM
03/03/08 01:42 AM
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Thanks all, I did find the reasons NZ voted against the Multihull. Looks like the old guard are firmly in charge in NZ. Sailing is a strange sport, it has made so much progress in last 100 years but many are still obsessed with with using lead, if we can go for another 20 years I hope high performance sailors can take the reins of local sailing authorities and make some serious changes. I just hope those in charge now dont wreck our sport completely in the mean time.

Imagine if Formula one cars raced with solid rubber tires because thats the first tires that cars used? Wouldn't be very interesting would it? Like watching keelboat racing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Darryn
Mozzy
1782

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Worthy] #133800
03/03/08 04:23 AM
03/03/08 04:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Shame some one hasn't visited Charley Cook...

This sort of bull is why I'm opposed to ISAF being involved in any of my classes..

Yes the Tornado worlds should have been moved.. But the powers that be knew the cat sailors will forget and fall back into being nice submissive lambs.. And we did

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Stewart] #133801
03/03/08 04:45 AM
03/03/08 04:45 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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YNZ screwed up as with many other NAs. They have however stood up and said "hey we [email]F@#$%ed[/email] up, we voted in the best interest of NZs medal prospects and not in the best interest of sailing" and are now doing their best to rectify what they have done by writing a letter to ISAF requesting a revote, joining up with the UK and Australia to have it overturned. This shows true character from them. If other NAs such as US Sailing did likewise, then we will be well back on the road to being and Olympic discipline.

If we continue to criticize what they did in the past, then we may loose their support at a time we need it most. Their board is made up of humans. Humans make mistakes. Courageous humans confront their mistakes and try to reverse them.


Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Stewart] #133802
03/03/08 04:50 AM
03/03/08 04:50 AM
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West coast of Norway
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What would moving the worlds have accomplished? I think it would just have made trouble for those planning to compete there?
I dont percieve ISAF as this huge evil monolith anymore. ISAF Council messed up with the selection for the games, but there is more to ISAF than just the council. I wonder how many full time employees ISAF have, and what they are doing. I think most of what we think of as ISAF is acutally volunteers?

BTW: Check out what Bundy have to say, and what John F. did. Not exactly nice boys <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID...amp;tickerCID=0

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133803
03/03/08 05:54 AM
03/03/08 05:54 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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That appears to be an honest assessment of what is happening and the chances on the Olympic decision being overturned are 4 fifths of F all. If the American Yachting organisations said they were going to vote for Tornado's would you believe them?


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Stewart] #133804
03/03/08 12:29 PM
03/03/08 12:29 PM
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Some folks rally to a certain ISAF executive committee members as a 'great backroom diplomat'. The actions on this matter suggest that their cheerleading confuses the 'diplomats' with the ‘operators’. (A disease in the world these days.)

As for the future, the ISAF, RYC and related world organizations need to recognize that certain boats, are a bit more exciting to watch and sail, and are a better determinant of skill and athleticism (than say, a keel boat perking along at 4 knts). It would be wise for the International organizing bodies to consider that ‘OlympicYachting’ is more important than ‘boat traditions’ and ‘medal hopes’, and that youth inclusion and athleticism is much more important value than ballast and ol’ buddies. Preferably the Executive equipment committees will act expediently, scuttling antiquated boats and focus on making the sport more interesting, simple and engaging to spectators prior to 2012. It might be useful for the IOC to consider organizing an external non-partisan group, with some binding/voting authority, to issue binding directives, specify timelines and milestones, and drive what expectations are for the event in 2012, so that the diplomats don’t mire the process in comittees and agendas. By co-opting the process by special committee, the IOC would be recognizing; 1) that the current nomination process is seriously broken (other descriptions come to mind) or is being run by fiat, and 2) give weight to the likelihood of abandonment of Olympic yachting in future Olympiads. If they leave it to these guys again, it will undoubtedly turn into another voting fiasco.

Water has a tendency to find its own level. The ISAF’s actions, be they through incompetence or driven by agendas, may ultimately kill Olympic yachting altogether. In the end, the danger is that the IOC resorts to using the trump card of ‘too boring’ or ‘too eclectic’ (which it is not!!) as an expedient to end a mess that has not been adequately managed. If so, the ISAF and related international bodies will lament, (but probably not recognize their role in making the sport into something better). Should that happen, multi sailors may have little need for the ISAF. As for me, I am watching, and writing letters.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133805
03/03/08 12:35 PM
03/03/08 12:35 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Foiling moths, lasers, high perf. mono for men and women and multis. Thats my opinion.
Unfortunately, in my perspective, the selection process is bogged down in politics and considerations on what each and every one think is best for the country/sport/economy/environment/terrorism etc etc. Would be so much easier if they let me decide instead <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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