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Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: JACKFLASH] #133906
03/20/08 08:38 AM
03/20/08 08:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
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New Hampshire, USA
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The IOC allowed the addition of the Star class for the 2008 games. The class was removed for the China games and I believe that they petitioned directly to the IOC for them to add 1 additional spot. I believe that you can find more on this issue somewhere online, it is pretty well documented. ISAF was supposed to have the number of events reduced to 10 for 2008, but after a large contigent of Star sailors and supporters directly petitioned, the IOC bent for these games. I do not believe that they will bend again, which probably led to the last minute change in proceedures by the US which put multi's vs not keelboats, but against the "Star Class". The Star class is strong, organized, fully supported at a world-wide level and attracts somed of the more prominent sailors to the class.

Having a run off between multi's and keelboats would probably end similarly to November's vote. To re-vote the entire slate of events. I am of the position that having dinghies representing 6 of 10 Olympic classes is where the trouble actually lies. I also feel that this could have been answered with 5 men's and 5 women's classes of which one for each gender is a double-handed multihull. With the AC now being battled on the water in 90' multihulls, maybe someone from that group will speak out. Seeing as how so far Glen Ashby and Charlie Ogletree have been spotted in Valencia this week, maybe both of them will raise the point and try to recruit some support.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: JACKFLASH] #133907
03/20/08 10:28 AM
03/20/08 10:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
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New Hampshire, USA
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Letters To The Editor editor@scuttlebutteurope.com
Letters are limited to 350 words. No personal attacks are permitted. We do require your name but your email address will not be published without your permission.

* From Andy Rice, SailJuiceBlog.com: In response to John Forbes's letter to Scuttlebutt Europe #1465, it's not clear to me that John has drawn a distinction between the comments I made and the comments made by Richard Gladwell of Sail World NZ, whom I quoted in my SailJuice article. I encourage him to read the original article at sailjuiceblog.com/2008/03/03/biting-the-hand/ , so he understands exactly who said what, and where I'm coming from.

John might be surprised to find that I share the same views as he does about the travesty of the multihull being ejected from the Olympics. If he wants to mention my name to either Darren Bundock or Carolijn Brouwer, the new President of the International Tornado Association, he will find that I have been one of the most vocal and consistent critics of the decisions made in Estoril last November, and that I have been campaigning hard to get these decisions reconsidered.

Indeed, the irony of John reading out that leaked internal memo from Yachting New Zealand is that it was SailJuice who leaked it into the public domain in the first place. When I published this confidential email on 30 November 2007, it was political dynamite. You can read the original article here: sailjuiceblog.com/

Who knows? Perhaps the publication of that memo was part of what convinced YNZ to change its stance so dramatically. But in the context of this political issue, 30 November is a long time ago.

Even though John and I want the same thing - the reinstatement of the multihull - this is where we differ. A lot of water had passed under the bridge by the time John read out that YNZ document in early March. If YNZ had not admitted the error of its original vote in Estoril, then I would have strongly supported John's decision to read from the memo.

But when a former enemy (if that's not too strong a word) switches to your side, it doesn't seem to make much political sense to keep on whacking them about the head with their past misdemeanours. Better to thank them for the change of heart, and then work together to get the change you're looking for. The fact that YNZ has made a submission in support of the multihull is one of the strongest cards in the multihull lobby's hand.

Meanwhile, John will be encouraged to hear that things have moved on a good deal further since the Tornado Worlds. In the past week it appears that ISAF has received a high number of submissions from national authorities (including YNZ) on getting the Olympic Events for 2012 reconsidered. So for those of us who want to see the multihull reinstated, things are looking a little brighter than they have done for some time.

* From Richard Gladwell, sail-world.com: I have just read John Forbes comments in Scuttlebutt-Europe.

He puts a very nice spin on what he would like to have reported.

Forbes hasn't responded directly to myself or Andy, however I do have an audio recording of his speech, which is not as he would like to have it remembered/reported.

Unfortunately I don't have the Booing or Ooohing recorded (as this incident came 15 minutes after Forbes' speech and dessert had been served). However it did happen, Forbes would have had to possess very poor hearing to miss it. The YNZ President had to be persuaded not to walk out of the function, and several YNZ Directors would have followed her - or beaten her to it.

The first part of his speech was fine about the Tornado class having an excellent "product", however then second was well wide of the mark. At present the class needs all the friends it can get, not be slinging off at those who are prepared to stick their head above the ISAF parapet to support the Multihull Event in 2012.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: windswept] #133908
03/27/08 06:55 PM
03/27/08 06:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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New Hampshire, USA
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http://www.asnr29.dsl.pipex.com/ISAF_Events_Report.pdf
This is the UKCRA submission to ISAF.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: windswept] #133909
04/03/08 05:37 AM
04/03/08 05:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
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Central Europe
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From the ISAF web site: http://www.isaf.org/22668.php

"...Council will also be given the opportunity to address the selection of events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition. By the close of the submission deadline for the 2008 ISAF Mid-Year Meeting, submissions had been lodged by 15 ISAF Member National Authorities and two ISAF Class Associations regarding the events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition. In accordance with ISAF Regulation 1.6(b), the Executive Committee has considered all these submissions and maintains its position from February 2008 that any submissions on the events for 2012 should be considered at the 2008 Annual Conference in November.

However, recognizing the level of concerns over the decision as per the submissions received, the Executive Committee feels it would be prudent for the ISAF Council to have the opportunity in May 2008 to affirm or otherwise its decision taken in November 2007 on the events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition. Therefore, the Executive Committee has decided to put forward Urgent Submission M06-08, which invites Council to reaffirm or otherwise their decision on the events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition made in November 2007. The Executive Committee intent in making this submission is to bring to a close the current speculation challenging the Council decision.

In respect of the equipment for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition, Council will make a list of the equipment it considers may possibly be appropriate for selection at the 2008 Annual Conference. This list will include all equipment which has been the subject of a valid submission and by the deadline 61 separate equipment submissions had been received."

Obviously they want to deal with all the submissions at once
by asking the Council to affirm its decision of Nov. 2007.

Attached Files
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ceitzi] #133910
04/03/08 05:38 AM
04/03/08 05:38 AM
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Central Europe
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The full list of equipment submissions is also quite interesting (attached).

Attached Files
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ceitzi] #133911
04/03/08 06:29 AM
04/03/08 06:29 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Quote
The full list of equipment submissions is also quite interesting (attached).


Very interesting <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #133912
04/03/08 07:22 AM
04/03/08 07:22 AM

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I'd be interested to know from those who have sailed both Tornado and F18 competitively (e.g. you Stephen) how they view Tornado and F18 comparatively as platforms for elite competition. Any pros/cons either way from a sailors point of view?

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133913
04/03/08 09:56 AM
04/03/08 09:56 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Before thinking along those lines, which is tempting to do at this point, you have to consider how the voting will go. Assume there is a majority to re-open the issue, and then imagine that the Men's Events are unchanged but they vote to re-open discussion on the Women's Events. Will the Tornado v. F18 v. Hobie 16 as "better boat" be part of the discussion under that scenario?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133914
04/03/08 11:27 AM
04/03/08 11:27 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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John
Do women want a multihull discipline?

Has US Sailing even asked the question of the rank and file.
I know they want a skiff disipline because they think they have a couple of rock start helms.. but that is more in line with their short term, win a medal NOW philsophy.

At the ISAF level where the MNA's will reconsider the women's report...... the evidence seems to be very clear..

NO! (It does not appear that there is much debate on this point among the women based on their report to ISAF)

The professional sailors who are women and involved in ISAF really WANT a match race disipline. They are perfectly happy to trade a skiff and multihull and geneder equity for the opportunity to have the face time, exposure and $$$$ and race proffesionaly in the match race world.

So my question is.... IS this truly a reflection of what rank and file women want to see in the sport.

IS there ANY grass roots support for match racing AT ALL?

Is there any grass roots support for women's multihull racing AT All?

Straight answers to these questions would be critical parts of the puzzle.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #133915
04/03/08 11:57 AM
04/03/08 11:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Hi Mark -

As usual, you're not wrong in your rationale. But in the real-world scenarios we're facing, you have to start from the premise that decision making at the ISAF level is not connected to "grass roots" or "rank and file." Letter writing, petitions and the formation of the IMC are steps toward addressing that fundamental issue. You're jumping too far ahead, and my post above was merely intended to forestall the comparisons between the performance of the Tornado and an F18 - a fun discussion that has no bearing whatsoever with the current situation. Similarly, as you say, there is little connection with what will happen over the next few weeks and what the "rank and file" want. We're learning how to navigate treacherous waters.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133916
04/03/08 12:20 PM
04/03/08 12:20 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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I understand you desire to stall the useless F18 or Tornado debate.

However, I don't see how you can ignore finding out what do the women want? While your tactics will change as you press the argument... At some level... you can't be simply blowing smoke up people's @#$@.

Is it really TRUE that the women don't give a damn about the high performance niche of the sport?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #133917
04/03/08 04:01 PM
04/03/08 04:01 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Posted on scuttlebut in response to something.

Quote
From David Brookes. Executive Director, International Hobie Class
Association: I would like to raise some of the comments by Henry L. Menin
(in SBUTT 2566). He says that “To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a women's 2 person HP dinghy regatta (again, excluding the 470)…”

If we can accept Wikipedia definition of a dinghy:
“A dinghy is a often utility boat carried by a larger boat, the term can also refer to small racing yachts or recreational open sailing boats. Utility dinghies are usually rowboats or have an outboard motor but they
could also be rigged for sailing. They are used for off-ship excursions from larger boats, outside of docking at suitably-sized ports or marinas. A small vehicle towed behind a motorhome is colloquially referred to as a dinghy.”

The definition doesn’t say how many hulls a dinghy has. So if we can accept that a dinghy may have more than one hull, then I can enlighten his knowledge. The Hobie 16 Class has been running separate Women’s World Championships for over 10 years. ISAF has used the Hobie 16 at their ISAF World Sailing Games going back to the IYRU 1994 World Sailing Championships and always had a separate Women’s event.

So as to enlighten some of my colleagues in ISAF, yes there is a Class organising women’s 2 person dinghy racing, and yes, there is a Class promoting and assisting women’s 2 person dinghy racing. Sometimes it is too easy to forget there is a big world out there that has more than one hull.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #133918
04/03/08 04:48 PM
04/03/08 04:48 PM

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Yeah I saw that and didn't think it was very enlightening. Do we really need to rely on defining a multihull as a dinghy in order to advocate for multihull sailing. I would hope not.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133919
04/03/08 05:03 PM
04/03/08 05:03 PM

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Just to be clear, my question was not aimed particularly at the issue of relative performance between F18 and Tornado. Rather, from an elite sailor's point of view, does either one have any attributes that make it a better test of sailing skill at that level than the other? I asked because of the fact that some organizations are proposing the F18, and so I'm just curious about whether the competitors would care. Maybe not. I've never sailed a Tornado and only crewed on an F18, so I'm just curious. But as you say, no need to have a debate at this point.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133920
04/03/08 05:28 PM
04/03/08 05:28 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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It is a fun debate to have. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133921
04/03/08 05:59 PM
04/03/08 05:59 PM
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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If one F18 design was chosen for an Olympic slot over any of the other designs, there is a very good chance that it would destroy the F18 class as a whole.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ncik] #133922
04/03/08 07:06 PM
04/03/08 07:06 PM
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For the F-18 to fill the Olympic Role it would have to do one of two things. 1) become a strictly controled one-design development class. 2) Have one of the current F-18's selected as the new one design Olympic multihull class. Choose the Hobie Tiger, Nacra Infusion, Capricorn, Taipan 18, Bim X4 or some other active F-18 that has a strong class association and the strength and willingness to support an Olympic effort. The Hobie Tiger probably comes the closest along with maybe Nacra to being able to meet those needs. In doing so, I believe that ncik is correct, that it would undermine the F-18 class as a whole. It probably would not destroy the F-18 class, but it would cause strife within the class as well as put a great deal of pressure upon the chosen class. This might also drive a wedge between the chosen class and the rest of the F-18 class. Lasers have done well since its selection as an Olympic class, but it is a tightly controled one design class, not a development or one-design development class. Whereas there is a great deal of inconsistency between boats, blades, boards, sails and masts, a laser is a laser.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133923
04/03/08 09:49 PM
04/03/08 09:49 PM
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Posts: 297
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Quote
It is a fun debate to have. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Poll on Olympic events over at the staid, more mono prevalent Sailingscuttlebutt web page. If you are aware of the Olympic equipment event selections, go and vote! Don't rant, be reasonable, and give them your opinion on why the Multi should be in! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
R


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133924
04/04/08 05:51 AM
04/04/08 05:51 AM
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Im not sure it would undermine the F18 class. What it could do is make the class that is chosen NOT the choice of F18 sailors. Eg over the last 10 years or so we have seen the Inter 18 develop into the Nacra 18 and now the Infusion. With the boat becoming Olympic that development would stop. On the flip side of this the Tiger has basically not changed...but if it were not allowed to by being constrained to being one design would it still be competitive in an F18 fleet in say 5 years time. However IMHO the Tornado at the moment fits the bill...now if it could be made cheaper more countries would race it. I honestly feel that the perceived expence of a Tornado is what puts many countries off camapigning them.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: stuartoffer] #133925
04/04/08 06:52 AM
04/04/08 06:52 AM
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Correct, any F18 picked out for Olympic 1 design today will be useless in the F18 arena in by the end of the olympic cycle, leaving it as the class of choice for prospective olympians only - much like the Tornado is now!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
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