macs - I respect you a great deal. I'm nearly a fan. But you're cherry picking the facts to support a position that has no bearing on the topic of this particular thread, unless your point is merely a cautionary statement that pursuit of lighter-weight platforms can be taken too far. I've seen structural failures (as have you) in "tough" boats like the Hobie 20, the Mystere 4.3 and the Nacra 6.0 - boats that some would contend are not good race platforms because they're "overbuilt," even though each of them enjoyed excellent class racing in their day. I remember, not long ago, there were rancorous posts from people that seemed dead set on forcing the F18 Class to begin a phase-in of reduced weight boats because manufacturers "can." I think that was just as much of a dead end as debating what they "can't."

On topic and paraphrasing a couple of great sailors - Bethwaite and Melges; Remove the excuses. Prepare your boat and kit as best you're able so that you'll have that confidence when you're on the race course. People carry this advice out to varying degrees. I know having a boat that is a specific weight is part of that preparation for people that I race often. I'm fortunate that it isn't something that worries me anymore with my current boat - at first I obsessed over it, but racing in the US F18 fleet has shown me there are other areas that require more of my attention.

my point is that the F16 class get on their high horse (lets call it a shetland pony) about the fact that the min weight they have set is perfectly easy to achieve and can be done so without increasing cost or reducing longevity.

Now at the last F16 intergalactics or whatever the event was called there was one boat that met the min weight set by the class. The average boat weight was more than 5kg over the min weight!

There are a good percentage of "professionally" built F16 platforms that are not withstanding normal use. Now I am certain that its possible to build a F16 to min weight by not using exotics but do do so takes an innordinate amount of time therefore increasing costs far above what is commercially acceptable.

To speak of realtive boat weights in terms of performance you must also factor in platform longevity. spending a lot of money on a light platform is one thing, having it last more than a season is another part of the equation.

You're sawing a familiar tune, but it's no toe-tapper. Point made, and time will tell - maybe sooner, maybe later. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Exactly.

When structural materials seem to be failing, new methods of strengthing them should be sought out. Here's an idea that might help an issue apparent in this thread. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

UCLA research

LOL

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I Am A:
(please select)

sailor
Cat sailor
F18 sailor
F16 sailor
OD sailor
Pro sailor
dead boat sailor
retired
cyber sailor (and in the top 100 of tacticat rankings)

Everyone has read your "opinion" of weights and class rules. Your agenda to contiue harping on it does reflect badly on both yourself and your sponsors. Catamaran sailing is in decline and rather than expending effort in trying to use youre skills and position to grow something you feel the need to berate others and tear down what at least a few people feel is a good concept.

If you must bash boats on-line then you had better upgrade your conection speed becuase there is not any line of boats that I know of that have been built problem free no matter how heavy or light.

I have owned 2 H16s which had to have hulls replaced and this is a boat in production for almost 40 years and considered the benchmark for a "tank" beach cat. (I have owned 7 varying as much as 15 lbs in weight bty) Most of the first H20s had their rear beams pull out, a bunch of the first Caps in Europe all had to have hull defects repaired. I have fixed my fair share of other hull defects and failires on Hobie, NACRAs and all of the Trac 16's I have ever seen had their deck plates rip off sooner or later. One of the new Infusion owners I know spent 3 weekends putting his boat togther due to missing and incorrect parts, only to have his hull split in half on his very first sail. Your new V40 ride seems to be a little sensitive as well.

My point is, everyone involved in sailing can add stories to this list. Boats are built by people and there will be issues from time to time. NO class is free of problems no matter the weight. I do not agree with censorship, but a lot of people spend a lot of time effort and money all across the catamarn community to try and keep it alive. Rick and Mary have spent a lot to provide this forum as a place to promote and share ideas. Ideas are one thing and no one has to agree with them, thats the beauty of it. Deliberate and repeated cut downs of something though maybe provides a legitimate case for being banned.

Ok, lets change tack here.

If I put two Blade F16 on a beach, identical hull shape and setup. Both boats had the same overall weight and complied with the F16 rules.

One boat was a std Blade as delivered by Vector works, glass hulls, alloy beams, boom, spi pole and mast.

The other was build using carbon hulls, beams, boom, spi pole and mast.

Which boat are you going to choose? (anyone who says the std boat can leave the room right now)

So you are banning me from the room? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not leaving the room, but I'll probably take the standard one. Why?

- The all carbon one would have the weight better centered around the mast and may be a little more rigid, but that's all really. Not sure it's a win for a non pro-guy like me.

- There is no way I can get my wife to buy an all carbon boat. Too pricey.

Now if you are flush with money, by all mean use the all-carbon one. Don't expect to win all the races however, some people in a 7 year old Stealth will probably outpace you because they know their boat better and have been sailing it for ages. Skills are more important than money...

And you know Macca, you really are annoying repeating the same thing over and over again. I don't know who you are, but now I'm really curious because you seem to really have an agenda and it's unclear to me what it is.

No need to wonder...

http://www.sailing.org/biog?memberid=57184

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...Number=133556&page=&vc=1

Like the automobile industry models change every year, the boat builders are free to do whatever they want in the way of modifications,
whether it is in the name of development, cost savings, safety, or sales.

Can vestal one design be maintained forever? (Even the Laser has changed it's rigging, oh my deity)
Over the years we have all seen product innovation (PI) at what cost?

PI continues to sell new boats, or new sails. Again, no one complains when sail shape changes, and chalk it up to maintenance?
If the perfect boat & sails could be built to a level where they are maintence free, NO fibreglass fatigue, no rigging revisions,
no one would need to rotate boats, and the manufacturers would SINK?

The price of keeping the manufactures afloat is PAID by the sailors sacrificing virginal one design or formula?
Product innovation is what keeps the manufacturer at SEA?
If there is NO incentive to buy a new boat/sail/innovation how are the manufactures going to stay afloat?

Your vestal one design/formula throughout the lifespan of a boat (or sails) is a MYTH.
Boats (& sails) get a little better every year, and after racing a year or two requires new. The cost of new set of sails on some boats can justify the cost of buying a new boat and supporting the manufacturer.
The price can be to high to play for some..... the builders will make a buck$ via market/product innovation resolving your issues?

Why, what possible motivation do you have to continue this? You have expressed your dislike for the rule set so move on. You have a 40 gig and an association with F18 builders so why even look at the lowly F16?

2 brand new A cats sitting on the beach
1 - 27,000 Gel tek made in Kevlar
1 - 21,000 MM A3 made in full carbon

Which boat are you going to choose? The use of exotics or more exotics for performance is more perception than reality. There is amin weight so building expensive is only really going to buy you bling factor. You can not honestly come on here and tell people that Glen or Mitch beat you around the course becuse their boat was 3 or 4 kg lighter.

Macca,

Thats a disgracefull attempt at undermining a manufacturers product to support your agenda against the F16 class.

Just when I thought you could not stoop much lower......

Shall I post some picures of F18 hull failures (new boats)here to prove a point?

Not going to lower myself that far.

Good luck in your future endeavors - your off my x-mas card list. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Marcus

I would choose the A3, the platform is stiffer and I think the boat is better built. Oh and its cheaper too <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OMG! Evidence please? What is a "good percentage"? Just stating something doesn't make it true.

And what about all the brand new Infusions from your employer that had to have new centreboards because of a HUGE percentage of failures?

Go on, come clean about your REAL agenda macca.

Lets look at from another point of view. In Europe now the customer is protected by various laws that protect their investments...eg the buying of a boat.

Each boat is normally sold with a warrenty eg 12 months and this protects the customer against the failure of the equipment...however the customer is also protected in another way...ie is the goods fit for purpose, in the UK we call it the sales of goods Act...It is part or Euro legislation. Simply put if you paid £1,000, cheap boat,(just change the symbol for appropriate currency) for a boat would you expect it to last as long as a boat that you paid £50,000, expensive boat, Both boats float initially and do their job...however if the cheap boat breaks we say what do you expect...but if the expensive one does you get upset. Now if we make the cheap one 5-10kgs lighter than the expensive one what do you say?

So certainly in Europe boaty builders have to be careful what they do...build a boat 5kg heavier and it is robust or build it lighter and it breaks and they get sued!!!!

However it has been said before on this thread boathandling is key to a lot of things. 1 bad tack costs you 5-10 boat lengths each time...a heavier boat will loose you possibly 5 in a race.

BTW Macca I was going to say the red one...do I have to leave the room?

G'day Stuart,

Boat handeling will cost you more boat lenghts then an extra few kgs and training will pay bigger dividense than removing a few kgs from your boat..... However, whether my boat or crew weight is on min weight or not, I will still put work into boat handeling.

Ensuring my boat and crew weight is at min weight, weight aloft is reduced and boat is sound for the job are esential ingredients for boat preperation for any event.

I will take the most competitive platform out there as I do not want to disadvantage myself from the start. Then I would work on my sailing skills to futher my chances.

Yes, enhancing ones sailing skills is much more important, however going into an event without best preparing your boat is not going to help either.

Post Deleted by MTOWELL