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Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: ] #139760
04/13/08 08:56 PM
04/13/08 08:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
would you cnc the female mold or cnc a male plug and pull a female mold?
If the first what would you consider to be the base cnc material?

Years ago I tried to do this but the foam manufacturers here couldn't make me a foam block big enough to form a skiff mold..

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Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Stewart] #139761
04/13/08 09:14 PM
04/13/08 09:14 PM

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Stewart, everything goes to plan it will be straight to female moulds using a "tooling board" type product with or without a tooling paste. We're doing some test parts (F12 foil moulds) in a couple of weeks. The ability to machine 3D shapes is a bonus feature on the new router that my client has just aquired and we hope to use it to make moulds for composite cabin tops on his existing aluminium hull designs.

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: ] #139762
04/13/08 10:33 PM
04/13/08 10:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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well I learn something every day!!

So why didn't you tell me about this 15 years ago!! Looks like for limited run one can even use it for prepreg!! Thanks really useful info..

Anyone want to build a skiff? I have a design ready to go! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Stewart] #139763
04/13/08 11:22 PM
04/13/08 11:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 435
Finland
Gato Offline
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Nope, but if you have something to build an A cat the thing is different <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Gato] #139764
04/13/08 11:35 PM
04/13/08 11:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
A cat? hmm.. Sorry no and Im not a good enough designer to give you one that would be more than a dog..

However I grew up building skiffs so well aware of the wedge hull platform.. A few pieces of ply at the start of winter and you had a skiff by the season opening.. Especially Cherubs were the kids winter projects around here.. This is where Murray and Bethwaite learnt their trade.. If it didnt perform there was always next winter!! It was an exciting time to grow up..


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Stewart] #139765
04/14/08 12:09 AM
04/14/08 12:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
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Finland
Gato Offline
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Well, I am coming from mono hulls so maybe, but now we are off topic...

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: ] #139766
04/14/08 12:21 AM
04/14/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Finland
valtteri Offline OP
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valtteri  Offline OP
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Finland
Quote

What righting systems are sub 80kg sailors using at present?


Also it would be interesting to know if that was the case with lighter mast because (harsh generalization) slapping over 2 kg's to mast requires more than 5 kg's of skipper weight. Let's keep in mind that righting might be ordered when there is no wind and thus skipper would violating rule 1.9.1 even though in normal windy conditions righting would succeed (I do believe in righting in all conditions because it makes boat safer).


Valtteri Blade F16
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: ] #139767
04/14/08 12:33 AM
04/14/08 12:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Finland
valtteri Offline OP
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Quote
Valtteri, can you clarify what you are asking for - do you want data on existing superwing weights from current owners to gauge variance and change over time, or are you looking for production data from the extruder?


Best solution would be that manufacturer measures them, somebody should be doing that quality control wise anyway. If that's not possible then data from every boat measured should be made available somehow. That way people could be making their decisions based on real data.


Valtteri Blade F16
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: valtteri] #139768
04/14/08 12:45 AM
04/14/08 12:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 435
Finland
Gato Offline
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Wouter mentioned something about China... Hopefully somebody has not been that “stupid”...

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Gato] #139769
04/14/08 01:50 AM
04/14/08 01:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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for fear of throwing fuel on the flames.

Formula cat, Vector etc get what they are given by AHPC. I doubt they have any choice in the masts they receive. When Boyer was heavily involved the quality control seemed much higher.. Hopefully this will improve as the new factories get more experience.. As for where the masts now are extruded I am not 100% sure.. The only person who would know is Greg Goodall.. Whether he will tell is another issue.. Saying this his sails still seem to be showing the way and that division seems stable...

I do know that Chinese extruders are not guaranteeing a straight tube under 2 mm wall thickness.. This may be where your getting the chinese reference.. This basically leaves the vast majority of Chinese extruders unacceptable for us to use.. Saying this there may be a factory in China who has the technology & skill to do the job.. But finding the gem inside the box of dross isn't an easy task unless you willing to spend a few months in China and paying a trusted chinese associate to walk you through the process..


Guys I know his isn't satisfactory but please be calm.. There are two avenues of exploratory investigation happening to improve the situation.. One or both could come up trumps with something for the F16 population.. We just have to give the boffins time to work the numbers.. Remember these guys are doing the work for us for free.. Even if it goes ahead they will only just return their costs without labour costs.. So we cant place too much stress on them to finalise the research unless we pay...

My only suggestion is contact Stealth and get a current bare bones stick quote.. If your desperate for a stick asap and do not trust the recent superwing batches. Or contact Scarcrow and get plans for his ply/carbon wing.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
But if your a Viper "one design" owner I guess your stuck.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Stewart] #139770
04/14/08 01:57 AM
04/14/08 01:57 AM
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Finland
Gato Offline
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The first ply/carbon wing for homebuilders designed by Scarecrow are under construction <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: valtteri] #139771
04/14/08 03:21 AM
04/14/08 03:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Valterri,

Quote

There is, let people know about it and put all of our measurements online. I guess that at least AHPC knew, so why that wasn't made general knowledge?



Well the simple reason is that this info (which is not yet determined to be true over the full range of masts) was not "general knowledge" till your story appeared. I for one did not know it.

I simply can not advice you or make general knowlegde something that I don't know myself. Also I have no indication that AHPC was aware of the variation themselves.

Again, your 2 masts are the most heavy supering masts I have ever encountered. Interestingly enough I have measurement data on a mast bought last year that is below 15 kg for the bare section. It is
almost certainly from the same batch as your mast. I remember that your first claims were that the bare mast weight was 19 kg's although you have already adjusted that down to 18 kg now ; incl downhaul and fitting ex spreaders.

I told you a million times already, the measured data I have on about 15+ mast does not conform well to your data. Now indeed I don't go over to the extrusion plant and measure all masts for compliance myself, sorry !

You are grasping at straws and starting unfounded rumours all over the place.

There are no 2 dies, we didn't know about the variation in your mast, our measurements of a subset of the complete batches do not comply well with your measurements, there is no indication AHPC knowns about this and we have not encountered this problem before. We have weighted slightly heavier masts but nowhere near to your measurements.

Now, I understand that you are unhappy with a mast that is several kg heavier then it is supposed to (and that other young masts are); I think you have a right to be. But you are trying to make it into a situation were you have been intentionally deceived by a group of people which is simply not the case.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/14/08 03:35 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Gato] #139772
04/14/08 03:42 AM
04/14/08 03:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Wouter mentioned something about China... Hopefully somebody has not been that “stupid”...



It is interesting to note where some of the cat builders are getting their beam and masts extrusion from.

Our Superwing mast however do not come from China.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Stewart] #139773
04/14/08 03:43 AM
04/14/08 03:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

The only person who would know is Greg Goodall.. Whether he will tell is another issue..



Several people in the F16 class know the details but are bound to some limitations set out in the agreement.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/14/08 05:38 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Wouter] #139774
04/14/08 03:56 AM
04/14/08 03:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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They must have because I have two off cuts here, one from my mast and one from a sloop section and the cat section is physically smaller than the other, not just in wall thickness, if for example I cut the mast track off the cat section it would fit inside the main body of the sloop mast.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: mattaipan] #139775
04/14/08 04:21 AM
04/14/08 04:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 435
Finland
Gato Offline
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This could be the explanation, the flaw in the soup is that somes are still saying that the weights of the new spars correspond to the old cat spar and not the sloop spar if I understand the things right.
Do you have any idea of how big the difference is, maybe some Taipan guys have had the mast on the scales as they seems to be aware of the difference.

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: mattaipan] #139776
04/14/08 04:27 AM
04/14/08 04:27 AM
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phill Offline

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Matt,
That is not consistent with my understanding.

Are you sure that you are not comparing the masts
used by AHPC on the T4.9 and T5.7. because the T4.9
would fit inside the T5.7 mast if the track was cut off.
Also the original Aussie wing (extruded to avoid importing Sori wing mast from Italy for A class) would fit inside the T4.9 mast.
A quick measurement of the major and minor axis would
tell the story.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: phill] #139777
04/14/08 04:59 AM
04/14/08 04:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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The cat rigged mast section is 145mm x 59mm and what I thought or think is the sloop is 150mm x 62mm.

My apologies if I'm mistaken, but thats what I was lead believe the bigger section was - the sloop section.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: mattaipan] #139778
04/14/08 05:06 AM
04/14/08 05:06 AM
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phill Offline

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Matt,
That is interesting.
I've not come across the 145x59 section before.
The other one is the standard section.
My understanding is the same as Wouter's in as much as there were some cat rigged sections but likewise I was of the understanding the only difference was wall thickness.
Unfortunately I have never actually measured one to confirm.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Mast weight and rightability [Re: Wouter] #139779
04/14/08 05:17 AM
04/14/08 05:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Finland
valtteri Offline OP
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valtteri  Offline OP
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Finland
I sent an email to AHPC about this, hopefully they'll have an answer.

And to Wouter I have to say that my error margin with bathroom scales is three times smaller that actual mast weight difference that came out wearing die (which is acceptable by you), ínternal DH and mast foot has always been included in both numbers (and said so). Also now that mast was re-measured it was totally dry, previously it could have easily have some ice attached here and there even though it looked not to be the case.

All I'm getting at that we have different masts here in Finland than rest of the guy's out there (15+ measurements) and you don't believe that it is the case and thus your are trying to question my reliability or you try to say that there is no difference. Why is that so, are you personally involved somehow to this whole issue?


Valtteri Blade F16
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