You don't pay sales tax until you walk into the DMV to reg it. Then it's game-on. And, if they find out you have been sailing it, there's a little letter that goes to the state BOE. Then you're bummed. Don't get a ticket on an unregistered, un sales-tax paid boat, I know someone that got their boat taken. You'll see a line on your tax forms that says something like, "Mercandise bought tax free from out of state." That's the second place they'll get you if you don't reg it. Then they've got you for tax evasion. It's easy to get by that with small stuff, but boats are a different story.

So yes, if you import a boat and reg it here in CA, you pay sales tax.

"Would you sell an f16 to a noob cat sailor that has never raced, flown a spi etc, or even crewed on a high performance beach cat, and feel good about it in the aforementioned conditions?"

The short answer, "No".

The long answer:

I would recommend a windsurfer or a kite board for the Bay. I've been to the Bay many times and seen what it can be like, especially under the bridge, when the sea breaze comes on in the summer, with the valley at 105 degrees and the cold ocean water. Lots of current, lots of big wind and waves, no place for a "newb" and the F16 is not a toy to be learning on in those conditions.

It's one thing if you have lots of experience on high performance cats and want to try it, but the next time you are out there, count the number of high perf. beach cats you see racing there...that should tell you something. It can get mighty rough and the water is cold. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well I've got a call into several F-16 builders. We'll see what happens. Thanks all for the input. I got a bunch of PM's in support of going ahead with this project.

One more question...

I ran into problems selling a-class cats because every year it seems like there is a new favorable design and I always feared getting stuck with a boat that was out of style. It's like anticipating and hitting a moving target. I feel like this situation is not as extreme with the F16. Would you agree?


Thanks again for your responses!

I doubt if anything will "horizon" the current designs even those currently being drafted.. In reality the crews are the determining factor between the current designs..

Im fairly sure that which ever design you choose will have a fairly long shelf life.. Hell even the Tiapan 4.9 with kite (grandfathered boat) seems to hold its own and that design is what 20 years old.. Also the kited mosqitos in a blow are reputedly hard to pass.. The mozzie is the same vintage as the Tornado...

The class founders made every effort to foster/encourage innovation in the class without creating an expensive "arms race." For example, the weight is light but not extreme, so regular glass or timber boats can be competive; although carbon fiber masts are allowed, the minimum tip weight rule neutralizes the weight advantage.

As far as different boats go, reading through the Viper review thread is insightful--here's the latest design with many positives, yet one sailor who has sailed the viper and taipan says he would prefer the taipan but with the viper rig set up. The taipan is a 15+ year old design now and is still and will continue to be competitive. The Stealth hull design is over 8 years old and no one is indicating that it is in any way obsolete. What's happening is that as a formula class people can get a boat with characteristics that suit them. Boats should have a very long service life, and the excellent build quality of the F16 makers boilsters that.

The attached photos sort of sum of formula 16 racing--it's different from one design, but sometimes the ferraris win and sometimes the porsches win. Biggest variable will always be the driver.

Ah, the tax man finds a way.

In NV unpowered boats don't need registration, and in CA out-of-state vessels participating in or preparing for a regatta don't need registration either.

As another Californian interested in this class, I'll put in my $0.02 worth in support of the idea of growing it here. I hope to join in the fun...when I can.

Importing a vessel into CA would seem enough of a PITA that buying locally would be worth a good deal extra just to have that BS taken care of. I have no problem assembling and tuning, but handling our Byzantine tax requirements...ugh.

In such a new (locally) class, having a local source of wisdom would be worth a great deal as well.

BTW, I was amused by the recommendation of a windsurfer or kiteboard for SF Bay. I windsurfed there for several years, and we rescued noobs with boards from downwind rocks and beaches pretty much daily. What's needed with any high-skill sport is good instruction, the more the better. I can only assume that it must drive you nuts when many customers think that the act of buying the product should qualify them to sail it to Hawaii and back.

Maybe something useful would be an analysis of the members of this class (especially the ones who've forked over for boats of course). I tend to think of early middle age, technically savvy types, not unlike most windsurfers these days. Is this the correct view of the class?

To be sure the Bay is no place for a "newb" to learn anything, but since a windsurfer and kite board both require more wind, and the Bay has some pretty good wind, that would probably be safer for a newb vs. a new cat on it's side blowing toward the rocks.

I think there are not too many sandy type beaches around the bay as well, but more mud flats at low tide which would be very difficult to pull any cat through.

Good points. Except for a few places, one gets blown onto either mud or rocks. It's a little easier to pull a board out than a cat (except for one unfortunate windsurfer who, I'm told, was killed slipping off some downwind rocks).

But there's a strange thing about the SF Bay. There are lots of dinghies and skiffs and keelers out there, and kites and windsurfers (a superb Formula windsurfing scene) -- but very few cats. Either this is a tremendous untapped market, or there is some special multihull repellent which I don't know about, and which doesn't repel every other sort of sailing craft. Does anybody know what's (not) going on with that?

I'm trying.
It's like herdin' cats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think the lack of cats is because of the few sandy beaches. Most of the mono dinghys are kept at the various yacht clubs around the bay and are launched off a hoist that swings them from their trailor to the water and drops them in, or, in the case of Lasers, they can store them on a rack and launch them off a dock. Cats are too wide to do that off most docks.

We need a solid sandy beach to roll them off the trailors, onto wheels to the water, mud won't work and rocks are death. Oh, and the water up there is cold, cats are very wet, especially when it's blowing, so wetsuits are in order even on a warm summer day. SoCal has the sandy beaches, warmer water, etc. so there are more cats there.

There has recently been a bit more activity out of Richmond Yacht Club...

Regarding CA sales tax...isn't there an exemption/loop-hole that allows boat buyers to store the boat out of state for 3(??) months after an out-of state purchase, then register it without the tax?
This issue keeps coming up each year...the Govenor keeps defending this policy despite public outcry against what is considered a "luxury" perk.

I think the other have given excellent responses to your questions and just for additional support I give mine now.





Speed is indeed relative, but the feel of the boat isn't. On a reach there is nothing between a H16 and F16, but on the upwind and downwind leg the difference is quite significant. The feel of the F16 is sharper and more pronounced. Don't flick the tiller over when doing 17 knots under spinnaker ! The boat will curve nicely but that 80 kg of bodymass will not (you fall off the boat).




No, personally I would not even advice a H16 to him under those circumstances. All noobs should start in lighter conditions and work their skills up before doing 20 knots in 4 foot chop/swell on a unpredictatble and unprotected body of water.





No doubt about it. Your conditions are not muchy different from what we have here in Zandvoort and after 4 years the F16's here are going on strong without any major damage.




Overhere we do for 6 months per year and have done so for at least 4 years now (with respect to F16's). It is no different in this respect to F18's, there are only two basic rules. Tie your boat down properly and secure your mast properly so it can not rotate from side to side and shake itself loose. The newer F18's with wingmasts must also adhere to these same rules upon punishment of damage. F16's are no rotomoulded trash boats that take heaps of abuse, but when cared for the are not fragile or easily damaged either. In my opinion they are no different then the FX-one except for the specifics of the wingmast.




Exactly the same. Only difference is the overall weight so it is easier to lift onto and off the trailer or to transport over a soft beach. Basically the F16's are a smaller and lighter F18 and are as such exactly as complex as the F18's in the way of rigging and derigging.




That is something that you must decide.

I personally feel the F16's fill a quite unique niche and as such I feel that there is a modest demand for it. It just triangulates so well between the F18, A-cat and H16.


With regard to being overpowered on a F16. We must note that the F16 has LESS upwind sailarea then a H16. It is just more efficiently implemented and the increased speed of the F16 make it behave more sharply and agressively. In principle the power is no different to a H16 but in order to make it go you need to know more about sail trim and boat handling. As such the F16 is a step up from the H16 or getaway. But still the boat will sail well under mainsail alone even with 2 persons on board. I have done so several times when I was lazy. And 15 sq. mtr is not alot of sailarea. Basically the F16's scale well to your momentary needs as a sailor but the sailor must still makes the right or wrong decisions. A given sailor may be fine 2-up with just a main in your conditions but not with a full rig and hoisted spinnaker. The F16 boat is just like a sport car, dummies can still get themselves into trouble, but careful sailors will not.

I hope this helps

wouter

On the tangent-topic of taxes and registration... as a recent transplant to SoCal, I can say that registering my out-of-state boat was a slight hassle, but typical of any other DMV experience. Coming from Florida where cat registration is not required, I read the CA law carefully, did some homework and walked in with all my documentation complete and ready to go. I had to pay a little tax, even on a boat I bought in 2006. I also had to have my CA numbers issued before the City would give me a storage spot.

In any case, the requirements are pretty easy to meet and leave room if you want to be "creative" - personally, I did not feel it was too onerous. I DID feel cheated paying extra tax on a car we bought eight months before moving here. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

When I was in college I got a ton of work sailing peoples boats to the '90 day yacht club' in Ensenada Mexico. Brand new $250,000 Santa Cruz 50's accrue a significant chunk of sales tax and the owners were happy to pay me to take their boats down the coast from SF for a 3 month stint in Marina Coral.
This is no more <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I made (what I thought then) a pile of money to sail some other dudes boat and drink his beer. AAHHH, the good old days!

Thank you for the input Wouter!! It is much appreciated. I am in negotiations with an F-16 builder right now.

EP, I'll call you.

The analogy with race cars seems very limited.
Among the advantages of the F16, as advertised by the people promoting the class, are the light weight as well as the ability to sail 1-up and 2 up.
That alone is is very convincing.

Sure it is also a race boat, and there are technicality associated with that which may or may not be a show-stopper depending on the sailor.
So is there an other boat that SurfCity should consider if F16 is "too difficult", and indeed reserved to an racing crew ?

A cheap used Hobie 18 or similar is a good place to start the cat learning curve. They are pretty tough, heavy but durable when it comes to surviving all the mistakes a newbie sailor is going to make. Much better to learn on something you didn't pay too much for, then sell it, get a lighter, faster, spinnaker cat once you are further up the curve.

I once saw two new guys (new to cats) take a new (to them) Inter 20 out in 20+ knots for their first sail on a cat. There were about 10 of us Inter 20 racers at the regatta standing on the shore. We were not going out, the race committee had already cancelled racing for the day (too much wind) we advised these two it was not a good time to "learn" but they were determined to give it a go, they were after all, very experienced mono sailors...

They made it about 100 yards off shore when the first gust flipped them and they spent the next 45 minutes driving the mast tip into the muddy bottom while trying to right it, with no idea of how to right it.

So, if you are going to learn, get Rick White's book, then pick a boat that's easy to learn on. Easy being less sail area and strong hulls/mast which will stand up to a lot of abuse. Any old Prindle, Hobie, or Nacra is a good place to start. Most F16's are not so forgiving of any newbie mistakes and any new boat is going to be expensive to repair.

SurfCity said they are learning on a Hobie Getaway already, so they started safe and durable.
I guess they are looking for their next boat, and it must be lighter and modern design.
TheMightyHobie18 is heavy, and is not designed for 1-up.

The Getaway should fill the role of learning boat, no need for the TheMightyHobie18 then. The TheMightyHobie18 was my first cat and I sailed it solo many times, in whitecaps too, I would roll up the jib for upwind then deploy it downwind. A great fun boat and only cost me $750, with a trailer. After two years on it, I sold it for $2,500 after about $500 in repairs, most of that was to the trailer (new tires, wheel bearings, lights, etc) and bought a Nacra 5.5 SL w/spinnaker. Wish I still had it for my kids.