Sure CLC could do a ply kit, but they would need a designer to work with them. There would also have to be a market for them. Shipping worldwide is kind of expensive so I dont know.

Perhaps if someone did a good hard chine design which was easy and fast to build. But as I said earlier, the cost is buried in other parts than the hulls.

Stewart, he didn't say it can't be done in plywood, he said it couldn't be done using the "stitch and glue" method they use for their kayak kits. Obviously boats can be built of wood.

I was thinking about a quick build kit where all the peices are computer cut, all the epoxy and glass is pre measured, with newbie type instructions, etc.

By building the hulls yourself and buying the rest you can save about 20% of the total cost of new F 16 cat. If you are a good builder and lucky you can build two decent hulls. To get a high performance platform you have to go for at least a carbon mast, and even with that you will have hard to get it down to min. weight.
As for the parts you buy, there is no way to get your money back, this is a development class, and what is good today will be old tomorrow.

I disagree with you on one point Gato. Gear you scrounge together like rig, blocks, cleats etc. can always be sold later on. If you find something used, you will probably not loose money on it either if you find out you are not into building a boat after all. Selling a pair of unfinished hulls is a different matter.

This statement is only true if you happen to be one of those people who feel they can only compete if they have the newest of the new.

There have been no changes since I have been around that really could have been considered monumental. A very slow evolution at best. The tiger is old school hull shape without a wing mast, but still wins, Marstom A is the same. The 4.9 is still very competitive, and I have heard the Mozzie is still even up often a good bet to win races around the course.

The formula classes are interesting because it allows more people to play. For those who want to buy and go, and for those techno junkies that want to tinker. If obsolesence was ever really a problem, other than in a few peoples minds, The F18 and A classes would never have been able to grow to where they are today. These are both expressly race classes and second hand boats would hold no value.

Matt

The open-source design idea was floated a few years ago and there was enthusiasm, but that was it.

I would like to add, I have a timber Taipan that has been widened to fit F16 rule this boat is more than competitive against any of the existing F16's.When I put the boat together
I found places such as Ebay a great source for fittings at less than half retail price.As for costings here in AUS we can build a pair of 4mm timber hulls for around $1700.00 materials only. Plans can be purchased for around $220 AUS from Phil Brander (Blade) or AHPC (Taipan)(just google.I don't agree with the guys that say that you can't save money building from home my boat ready to go with trailer cost $9500.00 AUS thats about $8000.00 less that a production new one. In saying this there is around 250 hours of building time required for both hulls.

Thats exactly right, Danny.

The savings I would say more like 40-50%. But again this as I said earlier, I can see, would differ, depending on your country (i.e. availability of parts and building materials)

I also disagree with statements like 'build for the experience, not the end result' I can't for the life of me figure the thought behind saying something the like that.

I built for the experience and the end result, and as far as I'm concerned, job done.

Regards

Matt, the reason is that if you just want a cheap boat to go sailing/racing in, the odds are very large that you will give up before you complete the project.
My little girl likes ice cream, but she would never have the patience to make the ice cream herself. It is pretty much the same thing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Earlier in my life I entertained ideas of building a kit airplane. After years of research and much reading, talking, etc. to people who have done it, I found out you must really, really, really love spending time alone in your workshop, and have a job, wife and family that will allow for that.

One expert said in an article about building a "homebuilt" airplane, "There are people who build for pure enjoyment of building, and there are people who fly for the pure enjoyment of flying, rarely are they the same person." I realized I was one of the type that love to fly, but lack the love of building. The small airplane classifieds are full of half finished kits for the same reason. If you don't love to build, you will get frustrated, board and eventually either throw the thing together sloppily just to get it done, or sell it half done.

Kind of like race cars, etc. there are mechanics who love to work on the cars, but rarely drive them, and there are drivers who only drive the cars, never turning a wrench. I think the same applies to building boats.

You really have to want to live in the woodshop and just enjoy building stuff, preferably without the distractions of family demands, and be happy. I don't have the time and too many family demands, and as I decided back with the airplane kit, I will never be a builder.

But I think some of the builders might not want to their baby too hard either. A race car driver will run it into another car or the wall, trying to pass for the win, and not worry too much about repairing it, whereas a mechanic might drive a bit more cautiously, knowing he will spend hours in the shop fixing it. "Drive it like you stole it" is a popular NASCAR term for good reason. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You said it better than me. In hindsight, the "ice cream" analogy could be a bit condescending, but it was not ment that way.



If you built the boat, you also know how to fix it, so that argument can go both ways. Just look at the A-class worlds and what Steve did to his boat.
You are probably right though <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, well, nothing is absolute, there are the rare individuals who can do both. I think anyone who lives in a northern climate where it's pretty cold and dark most of the winter will be more inclined to build as a Winter Project, whereas we in the south can sail all year are not so inclined to spend the hours in the shop when we could be out sailing.

When I lived up north I used to spend the winters tying flys, waiting for the day the lakes and rivers opened up! It was quite relaxing. Now I just fish, I haven't tied a fly since I moved south 11 years ago, and now I'm even bored with fishing, so available is it, all year round.

I OWN a cabinet shop. I am more than an adequate woodworker. I don't see myself building a boat. I'd rather work that 250 hours doing essentially the same thing and get paid, then take that money and buy a boat. The other side of the coin is I could write off all the material. Sorta <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've kicked around building too many things: Trimaran, F16, a mono slug, a sailplane, and an iceboat. When I win the lottery, (or finally meet my perfect woman with a 7 figure bank account), I might just get around to doing such things if I didn't have to do them on a day to day basis.

Over here you would hear in a thick Irish accent "Drive her like she's stolen"

As an engineer who really enjoys designing, building, and testing new products, I agree with the statement that one should build a boat for the enjoyment of building it, and if one doesn't particularly enjoy building, buy the best used boat one can afford. In today's world, where most manufacturing processes are very efficient, the home builder can seldom compete against the pros except in special circumstances -- e.g. an innovative new design, or an especially good source of cheap used parts, or artificially inflated prices such as due to weird tax laws.

BTW, do folks outside the U.S. have to sales tax (or VAT, GST, etc.) again each time a used vessel is sold?

That having been said, there are those of us who really do build for the love of building. Who can actually enjoy finishing well behind those who spent more time building skills than boats. I guess we're pretty crazy, though.

I missed you over here today Dermot, 95 degrees and blowing, we would have had a grea time out on the lake! We would have definately been "driving her like she's stolen." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Did you say you were coming over to visit your relatives sometime this summer?

That's 35 degrees <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> If we get 25 for more than 2 days, it's known as a heat wave <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I will be in Palo Alto for a wedding in July. Only staying a week, so a boat trip to Alcatraz is probably the only time I'll see the water <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh well, I'm sure you will have a good time and it may be pretty warm in Palo Alto come July too! But the water in the Bay never really warms up very much. A boat trip to Alcatraz would be fun. Good luck!

I'm following Rolf's good advice at locating materials and technical knowledge first .... I'll keep you informed and ask lots of questions as we go along ....

Maybe the most important thing happened today ... I was offered a steady job w/ benefits ... I start Tuesday!

Now for the most difficult part ... clean out/straighten out the garage/workshop !!!!

HarryMurphey