Mk 5 is the weapon of choice for the Games. Bit deeper and can run better VMG. Suited to smaller fleet racing. The leaders don't mind it also as they can sprint away from the rest of the field in bigger fleets.

Also a bit better when lumpy with lighter winds.

Think Bundy and Glenn use a mark 4 and they are definately leaders? For a low-wind event like the games seems to build up to, they might be looking at flatter shapes to get a better L/D ratio when going downwind. Power dont always equal speed so that might be it. Dont see why they are not happy with the existing spi poles though.

It is so sad to know that multihulls are out of the games. I'll miss the experiments done in the Tornado class and the mind-food they have created.

Rolf,
Just wondering if you had measured the amount the distance between the bows of your Tornado would decrease when the forestay was loaded right up.

Just looking a 1 possible perceived advantage of running the pole lower when chasing the last poofteenth of a percent apart from the spinnaker.

The more induced tow in that you get when loaded the more the lower bridles that centre the middle of the pole and therefore tac of the jib slacken or loose tension.

This may affect the shape of the bottom of the jib as the luff may tend to get a kink in it with apex at the forestay, compression strut and bridle intersection.

Interestingly the lower the pole the lower the angle of the lower bridles to the mid pole and the less the lower bridle wires slacken with any given tow in so the better the bottom of the jib will hold its shape. This is assuming the Marstrom Tornado hulls are like other boats and give some toe in when fully loaded. I hear they are now running 15:1 main sheet so this may have started to become a problem.
No doubt there are many other influencing factors and the differences I'm talking about are so small I think we really need the guys who started the trend to spill the beans.

Regards,
Phill

Hi Stewart,

you are right, the pole on a 18 skiff is end supported as well of course. Because the angles of these wires are not very efficient they need the lateral stiffening. On cats, the supporting wires of the pole (the spi "shrouds") have a more efficient angle, hence no tripod and dolphin striker is need in my opinion. If I lift a cat on its pole I see very small displacement in fact. No skiff to lift up on our beach however...

Cheers,

Klaus

There are some big developments going on in 12's atm. Hulls are the main area (four new boats built in Brisbane for the interdominions), but the rigs are being modified to suit the faster hulls

A couple of the top boats are going with pole launchers and using large diameter carbon poles with no stays. These are matched up with spinnaker chutes which makes boat handling a bit easier, which is very important for skiffs.

I have noticed the new kiwi hull is a slab sided design to cut down on wave and spray resistance. This thinking is based on the current top Javelin hull and uses racks. All I can think of is this type of development must be a change in rules to allow racks.
Do the briz boats have racks?
I also notice that the UK "cherubs" seem to have modified their rules to become almost 12s!!

Using a chute and extender pole would mean a smaller kite or a very large chute entrance!! That long pole gave a little grief if the water was choppy I suspect.

Great to hear that 12s are on the rebound!! They are awe inspiring to watch.

Hey Stewart, see attachment. Pics of new 12 ft skiffs mould which shows the slab sides you are mentioning.

Ok. that looks more like a modern take on the "wedge". Which is similar to the bloodaxe.. I wonder if Mathews is the designer?

The new kiwi hull is even more vertical and doesn't have the wings but has racks. http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index...=&nid=38128

This kiwi development I guess means the hulls are no longer "R" class compliant. Not an issue in Au but is in kiwiland. Again unless the "R" class has changed rules. Also great to see that the "R" & 12 classes in NZ have a requirement for 2nd hand boats!! Fantastic news for sailing!!
As they say.. start sailing get old enough and good enough and get onto a 12 then get too old and retire to 18s and finally when very old retire to cats!!

Hey TaipanFC, had a good chat with someone you may know in Brisbane today. Interesting to here what he has planned for his 12.

No, that won't be necessary.

Wouter

Phill,

You comments are indeed interesting. It could well be the explanation for using the pelican striker.

Although Rolfs comments about the tornado spi's already being limited in luff length by class rules will go against your explanation a bit.

Wouter

The fool is you Wouter.

I do not have a problem with what TaipanFC wrote and share a similar view from what I have experienced in real life.

The problem with you Doug Lord..... Sorry, Wouter is that you will base your discussion on what you have ‘analysed’ with little practical experience. Why don’t you go out and sail and learn a bit from a practical point of view.

You consistently tell very good sailors that they are wrong, they should do this to their boat and should sail their boat this way. It is very hard to treat anything said from a sailor who could not sail out of sight on a dark night with respect.

Pull your head in, go out and sail. Earn a bit of respect before knocking down sailors that have forgotten more than you know.

Max luff on a Tornado spi is 9150mm I seem to remember. We started out with 9100mm from the mast turning block to the tack block but went to something like 9130mm later on or even more. That was with less rake than most so our pole went pretty low and had quite some pre-bend. All taken from imperfect memory, so..

Think of it this way..... A 500mm strut runs from the bridal to the spin pole. The pelican (Not Wouter but the other pelican) striker is effectively an extension to this strut, running down to the pelican striker wire. The pole is very ridged in the vertical at mid pole distance and is held secure from horizontal movement by the lower bridal lines.

The pole tip is normally supported in the vertical by the bow lines, however they are not very efficient in the vertical due to stretch and the angle they run. They are very efficient in the horizontal though.

The addition of the pelican striker will greatly assist the support of the pole tip in the vertical by supporting it at to pole base, mid way and the pole tip.

Back to skool Wouter
May I suggest sailing skool first though.

Got first place prize in a 650 boat fleet a couple years back doing 24 hours of continious sailing and navigating, did you ? I also did a night passage of the English Channel in certified windforce 12 winds while helming a 3 masted barge (under sail) during the dog watch (midnight to 4 a.m.), captain got an official hearing afterwards as this really shouldn't have happened. Is that "... out of sight on a dark night ..." enough for you ?

But I don't need huffing and puffing to inflate my stature.

First place in any event still doesn't say squad when it comes down to engineering.

If the tip of your spi pole flexes up by 500-100 mm (as TaipanFC says is common) then the setup on YOUR boat is wrong; it is not that all boats in the rest of the world are wrong.

When I write down actual experience derived from sailing my boat then that is not "analysing when little to no practical experience"

Lets face it here guys, you guys think you know me but you really don't. You have no idea of what I have done and what boats I have sailed or for how many years and under what conditions. I'm no Ashby or Bundock but neither are you guys ! Your own race results aren't that impressive.

Wouter

I'll go head to head with you any day mate...... I would even do it on a 4.9 and let you keep the kite on yours. I don't hide in fleets that make me look good, but will take on the worlds best. Taipanfc the same.

Before we get into a pissing match, I must confess that I never noticed any significant flexing sideways or upwards of the spi pole tip. To put our Tornado on the beachwheels it was my job to grab the pole and lift the front part of the boat a meter or meter and a half so it rested on just the aft support. Frode would then roll the beachwheels in place under the hulls. If the hulls or stays flexed significantly, I think I would have noticed. Sadly, I never tried measuring distance between the bows like Phill suggested, then sheet in the main hard and re-measure. That would have given us something more real to speculate about.

Looks like it is time to get in touch with some of the big guns and ask what the idea is..


Edit: Oh, I notice I am too late about the pissing match..

HI Rolf, When myself and others at our club lift our F18s and Tornadoes, we do notice some tip movement in the vertical. Under spinnaker load, the movement is a lot greater (have not measured it though) and the tip flex is significant. FYI, we run quiet tight luffs with less then a quater fist twist in them.

Could you do the measurement test described above on your Capricorn and perhaps also on a Tornado? The same numbers from different F16s would also be nice to have. Then we would know a bit more about what we are discussing here and that would be great.