Previous class member so I hope my words are heard and not ignored.

At first I was all for swtiching crews/equipment around, but I learned its not fair and I was advocating for it not to be done. Ive voiced this opinion at regattas and even here on the forums.

Personally I think it should be banned, unless something extreme happened and there is no other option. For exacmple your regular crew gets hurt and there is no one else willing to race with you.

I wasnt for this switch around when I was in the F16 class and now that I am in the F18 class and unless racing OPEN I wouldnt care.

IMO if a F16 sailor registers UNI he races UNI. If he registers SLOOP he races sloop no matter what.

Not that I am aware of in open class racing at any "meaningful" events (I know meaningful is somewhat subjective). It has been done at F16 only events (example: nasty weather on Saturday and good weather on Sunday).

Robi - you mean on an event-by-event basis, right? I whole-heartedly agree that once entered in an event you should sail in that configuration for the duration of the event. I do think I should be able to sail 1-up at one event and 2-up at another event, though.

Yes, I think anything else would be unreasonable.

Well, I would also say that swithcing crew would be just as in-appropriate as swithcing from Uni to Sloop. I know crew can get injured, etc. but so can a skipper. What happens if the Skipper is injured? You don't sail. If you are going to truely be a "team", then if your crew is injured, I guess you are out. Do they allow crew swapping in the Olympics or any Nationals?

Otherwise, unless the crew is an identical replacement in every way, (Size, wt. and ability) you have now altered your team. You might have even found a very much better crew to replace your injured new crew, etc. So there you are, spent all that time and money, and now you are sitting on the beach. Time to sell the boat and get a Jet Ski? You see how easily it can start to impact the participation?

Now, here is what I would really like to see. If it is a "Big" regatta, i.e. a Nationals, or a qualifier for a Nationals, no changes allowed, period. Not to crew or sails.

If on the other hand, it is a local type race, or a smaller regatta with no follow on points or qualifications, then by all means, get as many boats on the water as possible, even if it means changing configurations, swapping out crew, etc.

Else, how are we ever going to "grow the sport"? In the end it's supposed to be about having fun, we are not racing in the Olympics. You could even "disqualify" yourself, but race, since we all want to get out on the water and have a good time, right? Isn't that what we are about? I don't race in an Olympic class for a reason...I want to have fun. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have swapped crew at a nationals, but I knew it was going to happen becouse of the schedule. I wrote the RC and filed an apply beforehand and they allowed it, which was fine for everybody.

There was an injured crew at the AC and a substite crew was permitted; I believe Robi was the substitute crew!

Never the less, at that regatta a great deal of anger was voiced at the notion of sailing 2-up one day and 1-up the following day.

I feel certain that if someone attempts that at the up coming Area D South, there will be strong protests. IMO, we need a solid classs rule for any protest committee to refer to.

For the record, I'm in favor of one configuration for any serious event. Start 1-up, stay 1-up.
Start 2-up, stay 2-up.

I think Simon already answered that. To go from 1 to 2 or the other way, you are changing your equipment.

Ref: http://www.formula16.org/content/view/16/38/lang,en/
4.4.1 A single suit of sails is authorised for the duration of an event.

I would say that is enough for now?

I think this is more like mouthing off by sailors irritated over other things. This was never a notion that was supported by the F16 class. Neither has it been common practice in the F16 class to switch make-up from one day to another. This is actually quite rare and it never happened in any big event (other then a fun race) as far as I can tell. I wonder what these sailors are so angry about.

The F16 class rules do not disallow changing the setup explicetly because it was also envisioned that we could have an F16 event where the 2-up and 1-up modes were both part of the racing. Like a swim contest where you have a relay race covering the backstroke, freestroke and those other 2 methodes of waterborne propulsion. Sort of like do 4 races as 2-up crew and then each crew member does 2 races in 1-up mode, resulting is a 8 race team result.

In effect the switching is left to be regulated by the Sailing Instructions.

In all instances we switched setup in a non-F16 fun event I seem to recall that that crew was scored as two seperate crews with DNS scored for the races where is was in a different attire. Basically this meant the crew was out of contention for any of the top places. Personally I couldn't care less if my overall result is DSQ'ed if ever I switch horse mid stream. I race for enjoyment not because I expect to win a pot of gold by getting 1st overall.

The F16 class was never envisioned to cheat the game by having the crew make-up follow the conditions of the day. Although I do agree with Timbo that in small fun oriented events I wouldn't care what a crew does as long as it puts one more boat on the line.

Interestingly enough, we still haven't found out which setup is the quicker of the two given a set of weather conditions and a skilled crew/skipper.

I think these F18 guys are making a whole lot of fuss about something that really isn't an issue and never will be an issue. The F16 class stimulates the boat being used for both 1-up and 2-up racing using the same hardware; it does not stimulate doing so inside the format of an single event or to do so depending on the weather conditions.

They can not object to the first and the latter happens too seldomly (and only in fun events) to warrant any "anger"

Wouter

Thanks Rolf. This is just a case of the uninformed crying foul for no reason. You can not change configuarations in the middle of an event in any class (High level stuff, not the club race) Swapping in a club level event would be fine unless you are just playing the numbers game, and that is just bad sportsmanship IMO anyway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If they allowed changes of equipment at the Olympics, I know of at least 1 team who would have been pretty happy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Pete, exactly what were all these guys angry about? I mean, in what regatta has it been a problem? I can only think of one single regatta, the A cat-F-16 Gulfport regatta, where there was much of that going on, and even then, it was only what, two boats? that changed from two up when it was blowing 25 on Saturday, to Uni on Sunday? Was that the regatta they were talking about or was there some other regatta I'm not aware of? Where has any F16 team ever hurt any other boat team by swithcing back and forth? What exactly are these guys upset about?

I think they are upset that Matt and Gina keep kicking their butts, but Matt and Gina almost always race two up, they never jump back and forth in a regatta. I think maybe they are also upset because there is no other class that offers the option of going solo or sloop. That was one of the big reasons I bought the F16 concept.

Here's how I see it. I think the F16 is faster in winds above 10 knots, when sailed two up. It might also be faster below 10 knots if the team is good, and also light like Matt/Gina.

I think if you are going to rate the (slower in my opinion) Uni the same as the Sloop, then you should be able to add a crew and jib any time you want. The rating says it's the same, so what is the problem?

Other wise, the Uni should have the old (slower) number applied in an Open type qualifier race where the fleet is mixed with A cats, I-20's, F-18's, etc.(non-F16 only fleet). I've raced mine both ways, it is definately faster to have the crew work the spin when the wind can justify the exra wt. of two of us on the boat (usually above 10knts.)

It's hard to get a handle on the exact complaint, but the Aclass/F16 regatta was mentioned a number of times. There was also discontent among some of the heavier crews that they might sail against the same skipper 1-up in some regattas and 2-up in others.

My concern is for the Area D qualifier and I think our equipment rule addresses the issue.

The F18 guys would be wrong to be angry about that event. It is our own class event and we can do what we want there as it hurts no-one outside of our class.

Personally I think this switching at the Gulfport invitational is a stroke of geniality. At least all registered participants got to race despite pretty horrific conditions; I think such a garantee is an absolute bonus when crews have to come from afar to enter this event. Better reward them and make sure they come back next time.

Of course at a major event like the GC I expect the racing committee to score DNS results for any crew that is momentarily combined into a single crew that way.

Wouter

You know there are lots of guys who like to cry about just about any percieved advantage, I guess they think it could be an issue in the Area D qualifier? All they have to do is put it in the sailing instructions that the same crews and sails will be on all boats in all races. That should pretty much cover it, right? But I would still want the slower Uni number if I were racing in a mixed fleet, Uni.

And they will not feel this way when such a skipper has two boats ? A F18 and an A-cat for example ?

Have they actually tried sailing the F16 in both setups against an F16 competition ?

I'm not too sure what the winning combination is.

I've found that it is just as hard to beat either a well sailed 2-up F16 as a well sailed 1-up F16; irrespectibally of setup I was using myself. And I'm a heavy crew by definition 90 kg/198 lbs in my swim suit ; at least 150kg/331lbs with anyone next to me aboard. I personally enjoy 2-up more. Shared fun is double fun.

I think "heavy" crews have more barriers in their minds then in reality.

The 2-up crew I'm part of this year tips the scales at 160-162 kg. We seem to do pretty well in comparison. Just work that boat and make good tactical calls and anybody will be surprised at how quick an F16 is in comparison.

I think Matt said it best :"This is just a case of the uninformed crying foul for no reason"


Wouter

I agree with this - especially when I am the skipper in question. Extra hands certainly help me in heavy air - but look at the winners of the last 2 GCs...... Singlehanders in pretty heavy conditions. Is it skill (surely)? Does it help to have equipment refined for single handed sailing?

I have yet to see any set-up changes that made any difference to speak about. The issue is experience/practice. I can not ever remember to do everthing I need to do on the A cat with only 1 sail, never mind the F16 when I am alone. It is not fast to have to go in and make adjustments after the fact and this is drasticaly amplified as the wind increases. A well sailed single has proven to be fast even in a lot of wind. I prefer to sail with crew no matter the wind and I have found at least 2 up it is all about where you put the weight, not how much there is (within a 260-340 range anyway in my experience)

This weight issue also is on the list of "issues" the F16 class has. I spent a lot of time talking to various sailors and the hard core 18 and 20 etc people have very long lists of why they would never get an F16. You could address everyone of them and there still would be something else.

Are you planning on attending Area D?

Well if that have such long lists of why not then let them stay out of the class.

So far people who have been to see us, have liked what they see!


As for the single handed vs 2 up speeds....

After the GC in Mumbles, it was noticable that the 2 up boats were slightly faster up wind and quicker making tacks and gybes, but those single handers that pushed it were faster downwind, but even these were not pushing that hard as they were not trapezing downwind on the first day, some trapezed at times on the second day. However, Hans was flying upwind!

As for setting the boat up for single handing, I have done this as this is how I sail most (in fact by Job has not been up the forestay yet!!!!!), my mast rotation and downhaul are adjustable from the wire (and I do change both). I have a system to reset by mast rotation back to upwind setting automatically when I drop the spi.

Sailing the F16 is a massive challenge when it's windy, and I like challenges! We have a lot more to learn about doing it well!

That is indeed his "forté"; and sometimes it is just frightening at how fast he can make a boat go upwind.

I expect nothing less of a long time A-cat sailor.

Hans nearly always hand me my behind on the race course, but I'll let you in on a secret. Try to stay as close as you can on the upwind leg and make your move under spinnaker. You can win back heaps there. (just helping out the participants for next year GC event !)

Wouter

Wouter, why did you not come to this years event?