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Carbon Mast #153479
08/27/08 03:09 PM
08/27/08 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I've seen posts related to an exorbitant increase in the price of carbon mast for the N20. A few questions:

1. What is the basis for this increase in price? Is it solely the carbon fiber that has driven up the cost? If Southern Spars is still the manufacturer, are they built in the Rhode Island facility, or elswhere and shipped here?

2. I liked the carbon mast, as it seemed a little more resistant to stupidity than a comprable weight aluminum mast. Is this really the case, or is an aluminum mast equally as abuse resistant as carbon (by weight)? Like when the mainsheet lets go with the spin up....

3. If shipping costs are the true culprit, is there any feasable way to produce a two-piece mast (either aluminum or carbon) that would help keep this cost down?


Jay

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Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153480
08/27/08 07:33 PM
08/27/08 07:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber

During the 1970s, experimental work to find alternative raw materials led to the introduction of carbon fibers made from a petroleum pitch derived from oil processing. These fibers contained about 85% carbon and had excellent flexural strength

Just in case you have not been keeping up on current events, the price of oil is going through the roof. Other oil based products like plastic are having similar increases.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: Dazz] #153481
08/28/08 04:11 PM
08/28/08 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no aluminum mast anywhere for a Nacra 20 nor plans to make one. I'm not sure what they are planning, if anything, to address the price of the carbon stick but I'll try to ask that question tonight.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Would a domestic supplier be any cheaper? If so, then it really IS the shipping costs that are pushing the price up, not so much the carbon or labor costs...

Could mast builders propose some quotes for building to PC for evaluation? THey could probalby place a bulk order for, say, 500 masts and then just pay a small charge for inventory storage. PC probably has relatively good data on how many masts they've had to buy each year, and could probably develop some idea of how many they'd use per year.

I would have thought this would be one of their criteria for licensing builder(s). Get the bulk rate on a production run, rather than having to place individual orders each time someone calls.

And if shipping it from Southern Spars to PC, and then to the customer adds so much cost, why not send the blank from Southern Spars (or whatever manufacturer) to the local authorized dealer directly and have them fit out to one design specs? That's why they're an "authorized dealer", right?


Jay

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153482
08/28/08 07:09 PM
08/28/08 07:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
500 masts?! How many 20s do you think they sell?

But seriously, how much is a Marstrom T mast? I heard somewhere around 6k+shipping. Sweden is probably one of the most expensive places for labour and benefits so I don't understand the $11k price.. Shipping can't be that expensive. Southern Spars must have a container coming to NA on a regular basis.

Also I heard that other suppliers are selling A class carbon masts for $3k..I don't believe that there isn't anyone in the US that can build this mast for a lot less.

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: pitchpoledave] #153483
08/28/08 07:15 PM
08/28/08 07:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
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Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
What I really don't understand is that the cost of the whole boat itself isn't that much more than an Infusion and yet the huge cost of the mast compared to the Infusion mast.

This cost won't help the class, but even if they got the price of the mast down by half, how much do you think the cost of the boat would drop?

And even if the cost of the 20 dropped by say $3000 would new N20 sales go up that much? Probably not. What other 20 foot boats are there out now that have a class? Tornado ok but for how long? Just speculation...

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: pitchpoledave] #153484
08/29/08 09:18 AM
08/29/08 09:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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ksurfer2  Offline
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K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Is the $11k price tag of the mast an accurate reflection of the wholesale cost of the mast or is PC, jacking the price up knowing there is no other source available for a new mast and a customer has only a couple choices....suck it up and pay for a mast, buy a whole new boat, or give up on the 20 altogether and switch to another class.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: pitchpoledave] #153485
08/31/08 08:28 PM
08/31/08 08:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 118
St. Louis, MO
JoeLeonard Offline
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JoeLeonard  Offline
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Posts: 118
St. Louis, MO
Quote

Also I heard that other suppliers are selling A class carbon masts for $3k..I don't believe that there isn't anyone in the US that can build this mast for a lot less.


$3k for an A-class mast is just for the bare tube...doesn't include all the fittings, etc. or the labor to fitout. Plus they use a fraction of the carbon that goes into a N-20 mast....just put them on a scale sometime.


JL N20 # 1041 "Lucille" A-cat USA 44
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: pitchpoledave] #153486
09/02/08 11:36 AM
09/02/08 11:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Quote
500 masts?! How many 20s do you think they sell?



It's not like the mast is a perishable item like lettuce...

I guess it would take a little math to figure out if it's cheaper to buy a big batch of them and store them vs. buying them onsee-twosee...

So, if they only sell 20 new boats a year, and people only break aobut 10 masts, maybe buy a lot of 100 masts and expect to turn over that inventory every 3 years?

Are there any other classes that could use the same mast blank? Maybe share the resource there?


Jay

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153487
09/06/08 06:54 PM
09/06/08 06:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
It dpends which A-Cat mast you get. I believe as of yesterday, the Hall mast was $2,950 for the bar tube. It will still run over $3,000 but you do have $550 to begin fitting out the mast. Joe can you email me at my work address which you should still have with information about Peter's new sails; specs, costs and any other pertinant information. Thanks!


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: pitchpoledave] #153488
09/07/08 05:12 PM
09/07/08 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
500 masts?! How many 20s do you think they sell?

But seriously, how much is a Marstrom T mast? I heard somewhere around 6k+shipping. Sweden is probably one of the most expensive places for labour and benefits so I don't understand the $11k price.. Shipping can't be that expensive. Southern Spars must have a container coming to NA on a regular basis.

Also I heard that other suppliers are selling A class carbon masts for $3k..I don't believe that there isn't anyone in the US that can build this mast for a lot less.


Current list price for a complete mast is 3188EUR (ex taxes); Local price is 3985EUR

3985EUR is about 5700USD


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153489
09/08/08 07:47 AM
09/08/08 07:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hello Jay,

Check your pm box.

Regards,
Hans

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #153490
09/08/08 03:42 PM
09/08/08 03:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Got it. THanks!


Jay

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #159411
11/04/08 04:51 PM
11/04/08 04:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Is it true (mentioned somewhere else) that the N20 mast is taller than the Tornado mast?


Jay

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #159433
11/04/08 07:24 PM
11/04/08 07:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Yes it's true. 32'


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: TeamChums] #159626
11/06/08 02:23 AM
11/06/08 02:23 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Tornado mast is 9.2 meters, 30.18 feet.

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #159995
11/10/08 10:23 AM
11/10/08 10:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
How many N20 masts have broken? Other than in the surf? A common thing to do is repair an A Class mast. Have any N20 mast been successfully repaired?

Last edited by Chris9; 11/10/08 10:41 AM.

Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: Chris9] #160104
11/11/08 02:04 PM
11/11/08 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
I broke an I20 mast at the Nationals at Tybee Island a few years ago. Heavy air. Came around A mark and started moving well but stuffed the bow hard and the mast snapped from the shock load. Main was still sheeted I never blew it. So it can happen.

I've seen a Hobie Tiger mast snap too.

I've personally snapped a Hobie 20 mast in big waves reaching with too much weight on the boat. I'll call that one my fault.

Mike Hill - Snapper of masts.
N20 #1005


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: Mike Hill] #160128
11/11/08 06:27 PM
11/11/08 06:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Mine went exactly the same way on a rough day on the Dutch coast. hell of a bang!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Carbon Mast [Re: TEAMVMG] #160174
11/12/08 08:13 AM
11/12/08 08:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
This past weekend we had a chinese gybe in 20+ winds and during the gybe the mainsheet came out of the cleat and ALL the sheet came out with the spin full. The mast held strong.

I was very suprised I wasn't dishing out $11k for that mistake.

Re: Carbon Mast [Re: ThunderMuffin] #160356
11/13/08 04:16 PM
11/13/08 04:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3
B
barnone Offline
stranger
barnone  Offline
stranger
B

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3
$11k for an Inter 20 rig? Wow.

I'm investigating finding a suitable carbon rig platform to replace the alum Hobie Tiger rig used on an Open570 sportboat monohull (28' rig). I looked at the Tornado Rig and it seems suitable, @3200 Euro but shipping is difficult. Could anyone recommend what class of cat has a readily available (in the US) carbon rig between 28' and 32' high?

Do you think the move from aluminum to carbon is a big deal on boats this size.

Last edited by barnone; 11/14/08 06:11 PM.
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