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Re: Need a critique [Re: DucatiScott] #154550
09/14/08 02:31 AM
09/14/08 02:31 AM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Ducatiscot,

we would all love to hear more from Singapore and the F16 sailing there. When will you form a national association and join the GC? Strange that the largest group of F16 boats have no say in the running of the F16 class. As the AHPC dealer in Singapore I would think it was in your interest to make sure you had a stable fleet and influence on which direction the international class goes.


The builder of the Stealth is John Pierce, he visits this forum. His website is here: http://stealthmarine.co.uk/

The builder of the Formula Catamarans Australia (FCA) is Marcus Towell and he visits this forum often. He was the one telling you to be careful with blanket statements and similar eariler on, and you got to know this. His website is at http://formulacatamarans.com

The builder of the Vectorworks Sails Blade is Matt MacDonald. He posted in this thread early on. His website is at: http://www.vectorworkssail.com/


They are all excellent ambassadors of their products and the F16 class. I hope you as an AHPC dealer will contribute on this forum with the same quality and professionality as the others.


To be fair I have to mention Greg Goodall and AHPC with their Viper even if you already do business with him. He dont make posts directly here on the forum unfortunately. His website is at: http://www.ahpc.com.au/

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Re: Need a critique [Re: taipanfc] #154551
09/14/08 05:23 AM
09/14/08 05:23 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I stand corrected ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But I must add that the accusation of the conspiracy was a bit tongue in cheek.

The reasons for the weight difference between Viper and other boats is purely economical in my opinion and having a 120 kg (homebuild) F16 myself I know how competitive you can still be at that weight. The F16 don't appear to be very weight sensitive.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: JJ_] #154552
09/14/08 05:41 AM
09/14/08 05:41 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

In fairness, later, he said, "If the hulls have little rocker and it's a light built cat like a Tornado, you really shouldn't ride surf over three feet high."



Again, we regularly do this overhere. The surf is not the problem. The only real problem is landing the boat downwind on a beach with hidden tiles (washed of the beach resort terrasses during a storm) and sharp rocks. The sand itself is NOT a problem, not even when the boat has some vertical speed. Again, in a good blow we ride tbe boats some way up the beach to clear the surf. A new gelcoat layer is in order once every two to three years but that is a common "repair" for all beach cats here even for the Hobie 16's and such. Sandbars are no problem either, you can spot them in advance by the change in water/surf around them and the rest is just timing. Traversing the surf is always about timing and planning your route so you take on the big rollers at the times and places of YOUR chosing.

We have an unsheltered beach overhere and yes sometimes we can't sail because of the surf, but then the other boat makes can't make it out (or in) either. I'm not sure where you sail but don't you have a coastline / lakeline that that has small natural harbours or sheltered area's ?

I guess my point is again, that there are alot of myths about hull strength and fragility, most often propelled by builder who make overweight boats for economic reasons (cheaper, more profit or a building facility in some 3rd world nation with an underskilled labour force), but that doesn't mean that the differences are significant.


Quote

"This is a high performance racing boat and is not meant to be used as a beach cat."


I find this quote very surprising. If these boats are not beach ready then which boats are ? Certainly no skiffs like the 49-er or even dinghies like the laser or star. Forget about Keelboats altogether, no way you are dragging 300 kg or lead up the beach. Yes, the H16 will take a little more abuse but the difference between both is really not that big; either that or 4000 cats in the Netherlands have been doing things all wrong for 40 years now. I say it can be done even with high perfromance cats as we (I) have been doing this for decades and our surf can really get up. Way past the point of where you WANT to be outthere as a sailor.


JJ, I think Rolf said it best, describe you beach or landing area and the conditions there (maybe a map) and I'm sure together we can give you a good advice whether a F16 is a viable option or not.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 09/14/08 05:55 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: DucatiScott] #154553
09/14/08 05:53 AM
09/14/08 05:53 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

That wasn't very nice - "When Greg wasn't looking we placed everything on the electronic scales..." - why didn't you just ask.



A bit tongue in cheek here guys.

It wasn't a coordinated effort, you could see markP (I believe) walk off with the daggerboards and some other guy with the tiller extension. We all sort of met in the measurement tent. All of us were also helping rig the boat, getting it off the trailer etc. Some of us just made a detour via the scales. Greg was there all the time and he must have know when it happened and he certainly knew shortly afterwards. It was a very giddy time. Lots of part of the other boats found their way to the scales that day as well for a reference check. We were all hanging around anyway as racing was cancelled for the day due to high winds. Greg had just work whole night repairing the boat together with our F16 class measurer. Again, during transport a forklift truck had driven over each bow and each stern, damaging the hull in no less then four places. Real bad luck for Greg and we all felt for him.

We all know the boat was much heavier due to the (quick) repairs and the fact that some components were lent from the Capricorn F18. Greg was happy to have the boat ready for the race weekend that was to follow and the weight was only a sideshow at that time.

Still the weight differences were a source of amazement and exitement during that day. I mean picking up a 4.1 kg daggerboard and then a 1.8 kg daggerboard gives a dramatic show of what careful engineering and production with proper quality control can achieve. Again , neither board broke during use at the event or since then. Some in the class are experimenting with even slightly lighter boards at this time; no breakages have been reported yet. Development is progressing.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154554
09/14/08 05:57 AM
09/14/08 05:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Marcus,

Do a check on your website :

http://formulacatamarans.com

There seems to be an issue and the page doesn't show.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154555
09/14/08 12:34 PM
09/14/08 12:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
JJ_ Offline OP
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Quote
why do you single out the Blade when the Viper, Taipan and Blade all have the same mast section


If any mast is stepped in the manner of tossing a caber, no matter the brand of boat or mast, that is obviously wrong to the point of hilarity. It was just an attempt at humor (which fell as flat as a caper hitting the ground obviously). It was not a dig at the Blade.

Quote
If you want to go surfing, a surfboard or a windsurfer is much better suited than any cat.


I agree. However, I was quoting Phil Berman, an long-recognized expert on cat sailing. My point was that some catamarans in the 16-foot are not really designed for off-the-beach launches or landings. Or rolling around in the surf. And, therefore, those cats, like the Blade 16 or Viper or Taipan or any A cat, could use a simple disclaimer that says essentially, "This boat is not recommended for beach landings or launching or use in the surf. This boat is not intended for use in this manner." Or something like that. That was my point. Simple point for a veteran. Not so simple for a prospective buyer.

Thanks for your patience.

Last edited by JJ_; 09/14/08 12:39 PM.
Re: Need a critique [Re: JJ_] #154556
09/14/08 12:48 PM
09/14/08 12:48 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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The sticker warning about the dangers of sailing a cat in surf and doing beach landings would have to go on all beachcats. NACRAs, Hobies, F18s, Tornados, Mysteres.. Anything built of fiberglass and resins.

As far as I know only the Hobie14 was made with toughts about that use, but I still think it would be a risky undertaking if not accepting the risk of breaking the mast, ruining the platform and injuring oneself.

Do you know of any cats designed and advocated as a surf cat? What manufacturer recommends beaching at full tilt with rocks possibly lurking beneath the surface? I dont know anybody who does.

Sounds like you are after a Hobie 14 if you want a cat, or go for a surfboard/windsurfer. There is a Hobie 14/16/trapseat board on this forum where you can get better answers than here on the F16 forum.

As I asked earlier in this thread, what are you really after? Tell us what conditions you sail/launch in, what kind of sailing you do and your skill/experience level and we can give much better advice. Going through all the "what ifs" is the wrong way to go about it.

Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154557
09/14/08 01:55 PM
09/14/08 01:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
JJ_ Offline OP
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Quote
Do you know of any cats designed and advocated as a surf cat? What manufacturer recommends beaching at full tilt with rocks possibly lurking beneath the surface? I dont know anybody who does.


I don't believe that is what Phil Berman meant in the quote.

Nor do I.

Thanks for information from all. It's been a good thread.

Re: Need a critique [Re: JJ_] #154558
09/14/08 03:56 PM
09/14/08 03:56 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

those cats, like the Blade 16 or Viper or Taipan or any A cat, could use a simple disclaimer that says essentially, "This boat is not recommended for beach landings or launching or use in the surf.



Yet, we are all doing it and have done so for decades without problems.

Personally I would like to see just one example of a surf proof boat. We have seen H14 flip in the surf and get destroyed and we have seen RIB's flip in the surf and sustain serious damage, mostly to the outboard engine.

Basically, nothing comes out undamaged when a couple of tons of breaking water comes crashing down and the object is pinned against the bottom. Best advice here is to simply not get in that situation. And that is not as hard as it may sound, again many of us having succesful at that dance for many many years.

Quote

My point was that some catamarans in the 16-foot are not really designed for off-the-beach launches or landings.


Yeah well, that is just that myth again. As if there are beach cats (like the H16) that will survive a flip in the surf undamaged. Beaching a H16 will also wear down its keel line, every few years a new wear layer of gelcoat needs to be added. The difference is surprisingly small. Mind you I haven't rebuild my keel line (Taipan F16) since season 2004 and I always beach my boat.


Probably the only material that is significantly wear resistant is polyethyleen and derivatives, you know that stuff they make the Hobie wave from.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 09/14/08 03:59 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154559
09/14/08 11:06 PM
09/14/08 11:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 24
Malaysia
D
DucatiScott Offline
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Malaysia
Dear Rolf
Many thanks for your thoughts...

With respect to..
e would all love to hear more from Singapore and the F16 sailing there. When will you form a national association and join the GC? Strange that the largest group of F16 boats have no say in the running of the F16 class. As the AHPC dealer in Singapore

We can/will tell you about cat sailing in Singapore... no problem.

National Association - probably never! Associations here are viewed upon in very strict terms - it is NOT like other countries in that respect. We can have a fleet 'nested' within our Club and can organise evnts under the Club... that's about as far as it will go.

Thank you for the recognition as an AHPC Dealer - and you sort of answer you're own question i.e. the rest of the contacts you have listed are Manfacturers and precisely my point, if the F16 Class can't get the 'big' factories involved we won't have much chance of getting the Class bigger around the world.

We do what we can to grow our F16 Fleet, seemingly its one of the biggest fleets around - which is pretty weird because we are quiet as far as the rest of the world is concerned!

One thing seems to bog me down though... we seem to be hung up on platform weights! If there was a platform weight the the 'big boys' could manufacture boats to, don't you think that would attract Nacra and Hobie... into the fold? And wouldn't that be good for the Class overall?

Is just a thought?

That seems to be a fundamental difference between F16 F18. 18's got the big factories involved when everyone said the platform weight was too high and it would never work - myself included. But because everyone could easily build a platform to that weight well its sort of grown dramatically. Mainly thanks to the money poured in by the big boys - but its good overall for cat sailing/racing... particularly now that the Tornado is retired!

cheers
Scott

Re: Need a critique [Re: DucatiScott] #154560
09/14/08 11:21 PM
09/14/08 11:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 201
Adelaide, South Australia
simonp Offline
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I suspect the answer you will get from most F16 sailors is as follows.

"If we wanted to sail a fast, big, heavy, off the beach catamaran, supported by the large manufacturers the F18 is the obvious choice. F16 sailors generally prefer their boats slightly smaller, much lighter and just as fast. The fact that it isn't supported by the big manufacturers doesn't bother them, in fact i suspect some are actually happy that way. The cost of this attitude is that it will take longer for the fleet to grow compared to the F18 class, and that's ok too."

Actually I think growth of F16 fleets around the world is doing amazingly well, especially at your home club.

High performance cat sailing at our club has been revived because of the F16's.


Simon
BLADE F16 AUS405
Re: Need a critique [Re: DucatiScott] #154561
09/15/08 01:33 AM
09/15/08 01:33 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Grown men usually dont call me "dear", and I figure I am in the wrong bar if grown men still do so. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By what I have understood, registering an association is about the same amount of work and expenses in Singapore as it is in Australia and other places. Still, if the sailors in Singapore dont think it is worth the red tape, signing up as members to the international association is realtively painless. You would be able to vote and make proposals as members of the international association. This is all covered by the constitution, which you as a member have recieved on e-mail. You are a class member, right?

If you search through the history on this forum, you will see that weight, manufacturers, future, wingsails, "golden bullet boats" etc. etc. etc. have been discussed at length earlier. You dont bring anything new to the table. Would you be so courteous as to read the history and bring that topic back here only if you have something substantially new to add. If you take the time to research a bit it should be obvious why.

Re: Need a critique [Re: simonp] #154562
09/15/08 02:44 AM
09/15/08 02:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
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scooby_simon Offline
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Quote
I suspect the answer you will get from most F16 sailors is as follows.

"If we wanted to sail a fast, big, heavy, off the beach catamaran, supported by the large manufacturers the F18 is the obvious choice. F16 sailors generally prefer their boats slightly smaller, much lighter and just as fast. The fact that it isn't supported by the big manufacturers doesn't bother them, in fact i suspect some are actually happy that way. The cost of this attitude is that it will take longer for the fleet to grow compared to the F18 class, and that's ok too."

Actually I think growth of F16 fleets around the world is doing amazingly well, especially at your home club.

High performance cat sailing at our club has been revived because of the F16's.


JJ,

I had almost this exactly discussion at my club yesterday with a new member.

Don't want this, that and the other as they are too heavy, I want something I can sail single handed and 2 up; Light; which I can pull up the slip without killing myself, with a Asym Spi. I want to be able to configure the deck layout how I want it, not how it is defined in some arbitary class rules.

Myself, and 2 other sailors who DO NOT sail F16's all came up with the only suitable solution: F16.

Because the F16 is built down to a sensible weight for a 16 foot boat, people can sail it single handed.

The only problem we have in the UK is that everyone loves their boats so much, they don't sell them, so when comes up for sail, it is not for sale for longer than a few days!!!! I sign of a healthy class!




As Rolf says, if the read tape is so great in your location, please join the International association so you can be part of the class and have a vote.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Need a critique [Re: JJ_] #154563
09/15/08 08:48 AM
09/15/08 08:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Quote
My point was that some catamarans in the 16-foot are not really designed for off-the-beach launches or landings. Or rolling around in the surf. And, therefore, those cats, like the Blade 16 or Viper or Taipan or any A cat, could use a simple disclaimer that says essentially, "This boat is not recommended for beach landings or launching or use in the surf. This boat is not intended for use in this manner." Or something like that. That was my point. Simple point for a veteran. Not so simple for a prospective buyer.

Thanks for your patience.


JJ

Your concern is warranted, but there is not any boat available that could be truely catagorized as being designed and capable of being beached on a regular basis.

I used to sail my H16 regularly up onto the grass and mud "beaches" in the midwest. This si a lot more forgiving to the hull than a sandy beach and we used to still have to build a new keel every winter. I now regularly sail my Blade onto the beach, albeit very gently and only if there are not shells, bits of coral or rocks. I beach wheel everywhere, but you will see this with all the round bottom composite boats. If you do come onto the beach just be aware some bottom work will be required at some point. As noted back in this thread, there is a bit of bad press associated with the lighter boats. I spent a couple of weeks finishing a set of hulls on the I20 I sailed in the Tybee 500, fixing holes and a myriad of dents. You see video of these boats being surf landed in big conditions, but from my experience with these, the boat we sailed in that event was significantly more dent and damage prone than my Blade I sail now.

Re: Need a critique [Re: scooby_simon] #154564
09/15/08 10:12 AM
09/15/08 10:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline
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singapore
Quote

As Rolf says, if the read tape is so great in your location, please join the International association so you can be part of the class and have a vote.


Ok, so i tried to join the international association and guess what? Singaporean isn't one of the nationalities available nor is our country's sail number designation (Sin) available as an option, and since those were mandatory fields, I was unable to move forward with my application.

Anyway, as far as F16 weight goes, I don't think the sailors here in Singapore take racing seriously enough to care if the viper is 107kgs or 125kgs (also maybe that's why they haven't been clamoring to join any f16 association of any sort unless the association starts organizing picnics and such).

It's actually kinda funny how we watch from the outside as everyone debates the weight issue while we just go sail. I think our general fleet attitude is that if the boat looks good and sails well, get me one of those. it's not like any of us are headed for the olympics anytime soon or hitting up the european racing circuit. guess that's why the viper fleet is growing so fast here. it's a boat that sails well and looks good. and since there isn't an option to buy a 107 kg version of the boat (and we probably wouldn't if we had to pay a lot more for a 107kg version, i means, it's not like out racing is neck to neck anyway), heck, why stress about the weight, just come out and play. Just my take on it and some insight to the local fleet mentality.

Re: Need a critique [Re: ckuang] #154565
09/15/08 10:17 AM
09/15/08 10:17 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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That is what I am saying, the weight issue have been beaten to death earlier.

I'll get on the nationality issue straight away so you are able to join! Really sorry for missing you out of the list!

Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154566
09/15/08 10:26 AM
09/15/08 10:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

That is what I am saying, the weight issue have been beaten to death earlier.



Yeah !

Hell, I'm not sailing a homebuild 120 kg ready to sail F16 because I'm such a fanatic either !

And I'm not the only one who does so.

Rather, it appears to me that all the weight discussions typically start with a claim that F16 weights should be raised so that the big boys can get in. Not something the "lightweight" boys can be accused of doing/supporting.

I think nearly all of us as recreational oriented in our sailing and most don't care one bit what the boat weights are as long as we don't break our back, get our boat righted when singlehanding and aren't slower then the F18's and A's. Afterall, the F16 class only specifies a minimal weight, not a maximal weight. I feel perfectly competitive (on the level of my sailing skills) on my 120 kg F16.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Need a critique [Re: Wouter] #154567
09/15/08 08:41 PM
09/15/08 08:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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South Australia
Quote


Marcus,

Do a check on your website :

http://formulacatamarans.com

There seems to be an issue and the page doesn't show.

Wouter


All sorted.!


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Need a critique [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154568
09/16/08 10:02 AM
09/16/08 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 24
Malaysia
D
DucatiScott Offline
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DucatiScott  Offline
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D

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 24
Malaysia
Am really not sure what bars you hang out in but anything you say Rolf Dear..!

No I'm not a member of the F16 Class partly because of the reason Kuang has mentioned (which you're fixing).

I will be so courteous to read some of the topics that have been posted and as you have mentioned, will take some time to research things... and contribute if/when I can be bothered.

Till then we'll concentrate on putting boats on the water and ensuring that the sailors are happy with their boats. Which is where I think the effort should be. It seems pretty strange that in a far-off tiny island we can field more F16's into a local regatta than the Global Challenge!

Cheers and thanks for the advice...








<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Need a critique [Re: DucatiScott] #154569
09/16/08 06:16 PM
09/16/08 06:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

It seems pretty strange that in a far-off tiny island we can field more F16's into a local regatta than the Global Challenge!



If that is trully the case then the 2007 GC would never have been held in Zandvoort !

I think you know quite well what I mean here Scott.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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