Spitfire is a good counterexample. It was lanuched in 1996 or 1997 I believe and thus more then 10 years ago, but still, not need to be picky.

More convincingly is the inability of the Spitfire class to move beyond the UK and Nothern France regions. It is, in my personal opinion, very much a local class and not a world spannning class as the F16 indeed is.

The Spitfire class is probably the most serious competition to the F16 class, but isn't too succesful in a larger sense. The Spitfire class couldn't apply for official ISAF recognized status if it wanted too, the F16 class can.

Wouter

I think 1996/7 is trying to stretch things a little as the Spitfire was only introduced in 2001!
Bearing in mind the roots of the F16 class it will be interesting to see how the F104 fleet develops. With F104 also encompassing existing designs it can only be a matter of time before fully optimised boats appear just as in F16. Potentially a huge fleet with 28(or was it 29)boats at French challenge event.

Cheshirecatman

are the f104's sailed anywhere outside france?

Oh crap! Now you will get Wouter started ensuring that everything is correct.

Boats all over (SCHRS band). Events? - watch this space.

Cheshirecatman

Wouter,

Sorry, but the Spitfire is not COMPETITION for the F16. I know a fair number of the Spit sailors well, FFS, I am probably sailing on next weekend!! Chris Sprout actually thinks that the F16's and Spits complement each other. Spits are heavier, and 2 up ONLY, and are SMODS; thus they are more suited to people who want to sail "out of the box".

The F16 allows you to configure the boat how YOU want it. It allows you to have the sails YOU want and the boat set up YOU want; it is also lighter, but critically you cannot sail a Spit single handed boat-for-boat at Spitfire events, you can with F16.

Chris was saying at Mumbles that he thinks is would be a good idea for the F16's and Spits to share open meetings next year; yes, some Spit sailors might change to the F16 and some F16 sailors might go to the Spit, but he feels that the complement each other and lead to growth in both classes.



As for F104; lets see what happens. Wide range of boats with wide range of SCHRS ratings; I can see that there will be "boats for conditions" and so I am not sure if it will work; there also appears to be some confusion as to if you can race single handed in F104; if you can; the boats is going to be around 140KG which is too heavy for some to haul around on their own.

Good luck to F104, if anything gets more boats on the water, it has to be good!!!!!

Cheshirecatman,

I dont know much about the history of the Spit. Cool boats and a shame they are not more widespread.

F104 is just another class like the A, F18, Tornado, Hobies and NACRAS. The F16 is a unique class in its own and the 104 is no different in relation to us (F16). I wish the F104 good luck. Personally I prefer the F16 concept with one up/two up racing and easy handling both on water and on land. I also consider the people in the F16 class as "my group of people" so.. easy decision for me.

We have discussed the F104 at length here earlier, the above pretty much sums it up.



That dont help much with the quality on the forum James. Wouter have his good and bad sides, just like everybody else. No need to taunt him.

I have to do some fact checking then, but the Spit design is most definately older then 2001. We launched the F16 class in may 2001 and I remember clearly that the Spitfire was already around then, as was the orginal Stealth and the Taipan. Back then we decided to grandfather the Spitfire and to make the Stealth and Taipan foundation boats. As a result the Spitfire as a design must be older then 2001, from memory it was a couple of years older.

Wouter

First Spit nationals were at the Grafham water Cat open in 2001. I was there.

Boat was launched at the Dinghy show in march of that year.

Edit to add, report on Y+Y

I'm well known on the public record to favour including the Spitfires even at major F16 events; and have done so straight from the beginning of the F16 class. It is one of the points where I differ with the official stance of the F16 class. I always envisioned the F16 class to work towards grouping similar designs together and thus consilidate the catamaran scene. Again, this is also why I think level performance between F16's and F18's is important. One start, one race, one result listing. I think cooperation is the key to a bright future. Divided we stand, united we grow stronger. Cat sailing as a whole is too much a sport in the margins to waste resources on combatting eachother.

My (far off) ideal would be were all formula classes work together in a union and start giving rise to formula events. Share measurers, share protest committees, share organising resources, share larger fleets then we have now, create more fun.

What I meant to say with COMPETITION is that if there is a class out there seriously rivals the F16 class in succes then it is surely the Spitfire. As in comparison to say the nacra 17's, FX-ones, Shadows, BCM Evolution, Mattia Esse, etc.

I for one am wholly supportive of any cooperation between Spitfire and F16 sailors c.q. classes.

I hope this corrects this particular misunderstanding.

Wouter

F16 and Spit at the same open, Yes; on the same start, NO.

I'm curious, why? I see from the Grafham open NOR for example that we will have 4 starts for the 'fast' cats:

- singlehanded handicap: I'm guessing A class, Shadow, F16 solo...
- F18
- other handicap:Anything quick with two hulls and more than one crew, I guess an Extreme 40 would qualify (What's the SCHRS for one of those BTW?).
- Spitfire

With such a start solo and duo F16 will not be on the same start either (a non issue so far as there is not duo boat showing interest yet but it would be a shame if we have a duo F16 lost on a separate start).

I don't know anything about race management, so feel free to put me back into my place but some suggestions could be made:

- starting the F16 with the F18, with 3 scores: F18, F16 and real time, just ignore handicap. The handicaps are 'close enough'.
- merge the two handicap fleets. I guess it all depends on numbers,

In my uninformed opinion the less starts the better: you don't wait forever behind the line for the 3 other starts to go, you measure yourself against different boats, and nothing is funnier than a crowded start line...

I'd say let's have fun, start everybody at once under spi on a downwind start line and watch the fun <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nan, sailing is too serious, there are rules damn it!

Please see here

Sorry mate. He just goes on and on sometimes and actually exacerbates the issue rather than letting sleeping dogs lie (down that is! and figure of speech too!).

Pepin
I participated in the Grafham Cat Open for the first time two years ago. It is a very congested patch of Water during the Event and "rules" are often ignored in the heat of the competition. There's a lot of shouting and bumping going on especially at the corners, so it only becomes fun once you have finished racing for the day with your boat in one piece. I must admit it was blowing around 20+kts when I was there so the runs were particularly exciting dodging in between 50-60 other racers. If my memory serves me correctly I believe the single handers started 2nd?
Anyway, it sounds as if there should be a good crowd of F16's this year and I should make it dependant on the prior weather forecast.

James,

absolutely.

Mark, Yes, I think we started 2nd (I was sailing My Inter 17 at the time).

We learned the lesson that this was not ideal.

This year we will start the Single handers FIRST!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm surrounded by children !

Wouter