| |  Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: WindyHillF20]
#154733
09/10/08 12:28 PM 09/10/08 12:28 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake 
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South Carolina | If I understand this correctly you take your DP-N number and subtract any modifications from it to create a lower number, is that correct? I ask to correctly classify and rate my boat for future race events. I have looked at every spec for each Hobie 18 class and feel the inactive TheMightyHobie18 Formula is closest to what I sail. I would take the penalty for taller mast(SX) and non-standard main ( of equal or lesser size). And a separate penalty of .995 for my jib set-up(which isn't standard). If I'm calculating correctly ( 71.2(H18F) - .995(mast) - .995(main) - .995(jib) = 68.2 )
After several races with the boat I feel certain it will never sail to the 62.0 of the Tiger. I wish I could say differently but the F18s eat me for lunch. My boat is faster than the H18s even without the spin in most situations, which I am very pleased about.
If I'm wrong please tell me so, if I should calculate the numbers differently tell me. I'm trying to learn and be fair with myself and others. Thanks! You need to multiply the ratings by the modification factors. Not subtract. Also keep in mind that the rating is intended to grade the potential of the boat without consideration for the sailor. Getting this deep into the modification factors with a modified boat is a grey area when using a handicap system that is established based on performance data. The HobieSX rating you are suggesting has an antiquated deep-downwind spinnaker, 40 lbs of wings, and only rates .2 different than a standard Hobie 18 without a spinnaker. In my opinion, it's not fair to use the Hobie 18sx rating to run a modern F18 spinnaker on a Hobie 18 without the wings. You should start with the Hobie 18 rating and take a hit for a taller mast, non-class legal mainsail, and spinnaker. The jib is smaller than the standard jib so I wouldn't necessarily start with taking a deduction for that. Also understand that while you can argue for a particular rating, at the end of the day, the rating and the handicaps applied is ultimately the responsibility of the PRO. Using DPN numbers (not wind correctors) Hobie 18 = 71.4 Spin hit = .96 main hit = .995 (assuming of equal sail area) Mast hit = .995 DPN = 71.4*.96*.995*.995 = 67.86 Given that the only difference between your boat and an F18 that rates 62.8 is the hull shape and the board aspect ratio (maybe weight?), I believe this is a very generous rating but a reasonable place to start.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: WindyHillF20]
#154735
09/10/08 12:44 PM 09/10/08 12:44 PM |
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37 _flatlander_
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38.912, -95.37 | given the Tiger sail total (main & large jib) is 227.5 sq. ft, and the Hobie 18 total is 240 sq. ft. (main/jib seperate size unknown and ~5% difference), I'd go
TheMightyHobie18 (71.4)
SP .96
MN .995
MT .995
for 67.86
H18F, where did that come from? The US made "Formula" was nothing more than a standard TheMightyHobie18 w/white powder coat in lieu of anodize.
John H16, H14
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Jake]
#154736
09/10/08 12:51 PM 09/10/08 12:51 PM |
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi rattlenhum
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Clinton, Mississippi |
Also understand that while you can argue for a particular rating, at the end of the day, the rating and the handicaps applied is ultimately the responsibility of the PRO.
Jake: Just for clarification, do you mean the PRO has the ultimate say-so, the ultimate responsibility to get it right, or both? My experience is primarily at laid-back regattas, but... Most people I sail with have no idea what their rating means or how the system works. Consequently, they report their numbers wrong (or not at all) during registration and expect the RC to figure it out. This drives the PRO/scorer nuts! Some PROs say they can only use the number reported on the registration. They don't feel they are responsible for inspecting every boat's equipment, knowing the rules for every class, etc. The net result of these two approaches is usually not good. I have never protested a competitor for this, but have approached the individual and encouraged them to report the problem. Even then, it's rarely resolved properly, but I just let it go. I don't know the exact rule, and maybe it's something that must be spelled out in the SIs, but it would seem a lot easier for each competitor to learn the system and report his number properly (or risk disqualification), rather than have the PRO be responsible. Kudos to WindyHill for trying to figure it out!
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: rattlenhum]
#154737
09/10/08 01:03 PM 09/10/08 01:03 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina |
Also understand that while you can argue for a particular rating, at the end of the day, the rating and the handicaps applied is ultimately the responsibility of the PRO.
Jake: Just for clarification, do you mean the PRO has the ultimate say-so, the ultimate responsibility to get it right, or both? My experience is primarily at laid-back regattas, but... Most people I sail with have no idea what their rating means or how the system works. Consequently, they report their numbers wrong (or not at all) during registration and expect the RC to figure it out. This drives the PRO/scorer nuts! Some PROs say they can only use the number reported on the registration. They don't feel they are responsible for inspecting every boat's equipment, knowing the rules for every class, etc. The net result of these two approaches is usually not good. I have never protested a competitor for this, but have approached the individual and encouraged them to report the problem. Even then, it's rarely resolved properly, but I just let it go. I don't know the exact rule, and maybe it's something that must be spelled out in the SIs, but it would seem a lot easier for each competitor to learn the system and report his number properly (or risk disqualification), rather than have the PRO be responsible. Kudos to WindyHill for trying to figure it out! While I agree sorting out handicaps and mods are quite a headache on the part of the PRO, someone who has fairness of the event in mind has to have authority of the application of the handicaps. I can think of several situations where a sailor self-managed handicap system could be a real mess. That's not to say that every PRO is required to run out with a tape measure and a scale. You have to assume that people are being honest...but at the end of the day, the PRO is responsible for providing a fair contest.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: WindyHillF20]
#154738
09/10/08 01:19 PM 09/10/08 01:19 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | So, your saying 71.2 x .995 x .995 x .995 = 70.1? This number seems a little high compared with the F18 62.0. The H18F has the lowest initial number of the TheMightyHobie18 classes at 71.2, lower means faster right? .96 x .995 x .995 (note the .96, not .995, for the spin)...ends up with 67.9. Lower is faster. 67.9 is probably not a very accurate rating but a place to start (I believe this is what they used at CatFest last weekend). With a 67.9 if you were racing against F18s, they would owe you 7.8 minutes for every hour of racing. (3.4 minutes for a 30 minute race, etc.)
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Jake]
#154739
09/10/08 01:56 PM 09/10/08 01:56 PM |
Joined: Apr 2003
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Graham, NC WindyHillF20 OP
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Graham, NC | Jake,
It would seem that some hit should be applied for the self-tacking jib. Even though it is smaller it is much easier to tack, especially downwind under spin.
I feel I slow the F18 fleet down, so asked to be placed in open class at Catfest. I don't know what number they used, it doesn't matter. I felt like I left alot of the decision in their hands, which isn't fair to them. The 67.9 with me at the helm is probably a good number. I looked at the TheMightyHobie18 Formula number because it, like the SX, gets a spin with no penalty and the Formula doesn't spec manufacturer of the spin. Maybe, with the jib a 67.6 (.995 hit for jib)? | | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Jake]
#154740
09/10/08 02:22 PM 09/10/08 02:22 PM |
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37 _flatlander_
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38.912, -95.37 | they would owe you 7.8 minutes for every hour of racing sorry for the thread hijack Jake, Would you mind showing us this calculation please?
John H16, H14
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: WindyHillF20]
#154741
09/10/08 02:52 PM 09/10/08 02:52 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | The 67.9 with me at the helm is probably a good number. The rating system is not intended to be a personal handicap system but is designed to rate the potential of the boat (i.e. if Randy Smyth was sailing it). Your, my, or Joe Blow's skill should have no bearing on the rating. At the end of the day, lets find a way to do what most feel is fair. I think the number 67.9 or 67.6 as you mentioned is a fair starting point. If it looks like you're unfairly clobering guys with that rating or there is a lot of discourse, then let's talk about it again. On the rating / time calculation; you use the handicap number with the following forumla: CT (Corrected Time) ET (Elapsed Time) HC (Handicap) CT = (ET/HC) * 100 For a one hour race with an F18 rating of 62.4 the corrected time will be (60/62.4)*100 = 96.15 minutes For the Hobie18Thang at 67.6 the corrected time would be (60/67.6)*100 = 88.76 minutes The difference is 7.4 minutes. Understanding that the numbers work out a little differently if the Hobie18Thang is finishing in 68 minutes, approximating an identical 60 minute finish gives you some basis for comparison. The F18 needs to better the 18Thang by a time around 7.4 minutes in a one hour race in order to beat it on corrected time.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Jake]
#154742
09/10/08 02:57 PM 09/10/08 02:57 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Annapolis, MD | Jake
Where in the rules does it say the PRO can protest a sailor's rating?
These are issues for the organizing authority , eg the regatta chairmnen, (who is not necesarrily the PRO) and the class representative .... not the PRO.
The problem you point out is that nobody has stepped up to organize the class... In this case... Open class. What group of individuals decides ratings issues for the region's open class.
If an F18 team showed up with the heavy sail plan and was racing lite.... Who does what?
IMO... It only comes to an issue if a sailor in the event protests the light team. The Organizing authority then holds the protest hearing and turns to the class rep for rules. The protest committe then makes a decision on the facts found and the printed rules.
Somebody in open class in your region has to have the authority to make decisions on ratings... So.. when the protest committe comes to the Open Class and says... OK... what are your ratings rules so we can decide the protest... They get an answer. If the sailor and the ratings committe disagree and it's not resolved before the regatta...the protest committe has no choice but to take the ratings committe answer.
The thing to do is to reach agreement on the rating before the regatta So the rating committe needs the time to go further up the chain to the National USPN and get an answer if necssary... It should not involve the regatta or the regatta staff.
Obviously, this is a stupid way to handle a ratings issue. Windyhill is trying to get it sorted out... It just needs to happen before the regatta at the class level.
In WindyHills situation... I would say... the boat is basically a one off design. The changes are too extreme to get a fair value for the rating. I would calculate a Texel or ISAF rating based on his actual measurments and then map it back to the USPN system to get a base PN number. As a one off boat... he will have to live the rating forever since his sailing skill will always be mapped to the one of a kind boat.
Mark
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: rattlenhum]
#154744
09/10/08 04:03 PM 09/10/08 04:03 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water P.M.
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On the Water |
Most people I sail with have no idea what their rating means or how the system works. Consequently, they report their numbers wrong (or not at all) during registration and expect the RC to figure it out.
I agree Jerome. . . but then there are those few sailors who know exactly what their number is to their modified boat, and intentionally provided a slower number. There are a few at every fun regatta. They get away with it. They get away with it time and time again 'cause they know they can and the host strongly discourages protests. They know it is wrong but still do it. Why have handicap racing if you don't enforce the rules? Someone ALWAYS gets screwed unjustly. It is only my opinion, but the open class handicap racing (Portsmouth corrected) model is broken, and for more than a few reasons. Sorry for the rant, I'll get off my soapbox.
Philip
USA #1006
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#154745
09/10/08 04:21 PM 09/10/08 04:21 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Jake
Where in the rules does it say the PRO can protest a sailor's rating?
These are issues for the organizing authority , eg the regatta chairmnen, (who is not necesarrily the PRO) and the class representative .... not the PRO.
The problem you point out is that nobody has stepped up to organize the class... In this case... Open class. What group of individuals decides ratings issues for the region's open class.
If an F18 team showed up with the heavy sail plan and was racing lite.... Who does what?
IMO... It only comes to an issue if a sailor in the event protests the light team. The Organizing authority then holds the protest hearing and turns to the class rep for rules. The protest committe then makes a decision on the facts found and the printed rules.
Somebody in open class in your region has to have the authority to make decisions on ratings... So.. when the protest committe comes to the Open Class and says... OK... what are your ratings rules so we can decide the protest... They get an answer. If the sailor and the ratings committe disagree and it's not resolved before the regatta...the protest committe has no choice but to take the ratings committe answer.
The thing to do is to reach agreement on the rating before the regatta So the rating committe needs the time to go further up the chain to the National USPN and get an answer if necssary... It should not involve the regatta or the regatta staff.
Obviously, this is a stupid way to handle a ratings issue. Windyhill is trying to get it sorted out... It just needs to happen before the regatta at the class level.
In WindyHills situation... I would say... the boat is basically a one off design. The changes are too extreme to get a fair value for the rating. I would calculate a Texel or ISAF rating based on his actual measurments and then map it back to the USPN system to get a base PN number. As a one off boat... he will have to live the rating forever since his sailing skill will always be mapped to the one of a kind boat.
Mark I may have been wrong to indicate the PRO in that responsibility. Perhaps it is the regatta organizer. We're never going to have an open class that is organized enough to HAVE an organization much less a rating committee. Ratings should be ultimately managed by the regatta's managing authority...I'm nearly certain it's written somewhere but I don't have the time to research it at the moment. In the case of PHRF, I understand the organizing body to have a good deal of authority over the end result of the rating system. I've heard of instances where they even override rating certificates.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Jake]
#154746
09/10/08 04:44 PM 09/10/08 04:44 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| The RRS handles all of this, although as Jake says, some of these positions may not be manned at every event.
RRS 75.1 and 78.1 puts the onus on the sailors to make sure their boat is entered correctly and meets the rules, including ratings rules.
RRS 78.3 states that an event measurer shall report inconsistencies to the RC, who shall (as in, must) then protest the boat.
RRS 89 states that scoring is the responsibility of the RC. So, if the event is using a rating system, the RC is responsible to score it accordingly.
The NOR and SI guides in the RRS (Apx K and L), which are the responsibility of the OA and RC, repectively, include measurement sections that should be included for such events.
I did a quick scan of the RRS and don't see a specific reference to say whether the measurer is part of the OA, or RC, or who appoints the measurer.
In any case, I would always have the expectation that the person who enters a boat is ultimately responsible to enter the boat (and rating) correctly.
If they get it wrong, they should be asked to correct the problem. If they refuse, they should be protested mercilessly until they play along or go away, just as if they kept ignoring port/starboard rules.
Mike
Last edited by brucat; 09/10/08 04:51 PM.
| | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: SurfCityRacing]
#154749
09/10/08 05:37 PM 09/10/08 05:37 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC Dlennard
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Wilmington,NC | AAhhhh, The beauty of one-design and to a slightly lesser extent Formula racing. What does that mean ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> | | | Re: portsmouth calculations
[Re: Dlennard]
#154750
09/10/08 06:04 PM 09/10/08 06:04 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California John Williams
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Long Beach, California | Jeremy's a Hobie dealer and wasn't been around for the horrible threads on that subject. I hope that we don't go down that road now, and let him have the pleasure of using the "search" function. If we start talking about the myth of SMOD and the brand wars, I'll start bleeding out of my eyes again. We all sail catamarans... let's leave it at that.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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