| Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: bvining]
#157423 10/17/08 09:03 AM 10/17/08 09:03 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | I'm guessing the price is around $2k for a bare tube, no fittings. this would be perfect considering that the "alternative supplier" that I heard is also foreign-made. I believe our masts are 32' long. Jack, you see this!?!?!! | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: PTP]
#157426 10/17/08 09:10 AM 10/17/08 09:10 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 778 Houston carlbohannon
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Posts: 778 Houston | The 20 is not a F20 it is a Nacra 20, a one design class with one design sails. Jack and others have told me their concern with making it a 20 is the class cannot survive an arms race. The same happened with the P19 and N6.0. That's BS. There was no real arms race with the N6.0 and the P19 until they were no longer making class at regatta's | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#157427 10/17/08 09:12 AM 10/17/08 09:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | What is the advantage of following the Nacra Factory class rules?
The 6.0 class tried to remain viable with the NE spinaker and snuffer package but were not supported by the factory and the class died.
History does not support a US breakaway from the Nacra Factory Rules.
(no matter how much logical support you can muster)
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#157428 10/17/08 09:13 AM 10/17/08 09:13 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | The 6.0 class tried to remain viable with the NE spinaker and snuffer package but were not supported by the factory and the class died.
I'm pretty sure that the N20's appearance contributed to the N6.0's decline. I could be wrong. | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#157431 10/17/08 09:26 AM 10/17/08 09:26 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I agree, the "shiny-itis" of the N20, as well as it's improved design (with a spinnaker included) may have contributed to the 6.0 decline.
I loved the N20 and will eventually consider another (once crew and time commitments clear up), as I like medium distance 'point to point' racing as well as w/l can racing, and this platform shows the best ability to handle those diverse assignments in a variety of wind/water states.
SMOD vs. one-design vs. box rule? Not sure where the answer lies, but if a domestic supplier can provide parts at a fraction of an international supplier, it would seem to be a good business decision on the manufacturer's part to develop a rapport with various suppliers (in the countries the platform is sold) to develop sources... I thought that's what licensing was all about?
Not so sure about switching to aluminum masts, but if they're as "idot tolerant" as the current carbon ones, I guess that'd be okay...
And if we're to switch masts (from carbon to aluminum), why not consider a wing-shape rather than teardrop? Might as well upgrade if major changes are going to happen anyway...
Would there be any validity in a North American F20 class, using the specs of the N20 with larger sailplan? I know Eurpoe's weather conditions warrant a somewhat smaller mainsail, but if the N20 design is easily convertable between the two F20 classes by switching mainsail, it might help strengthen demand...
Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 10/17/08 09:29 AM.
Jay
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#157466 10/17/08 01:01 PM 10/17/08 01:01 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Yes, the N20 was the hot new boat at the time... but the N6.0 class thought that adding a spin would keep the class going. They met with a lot of resistance from the factory which had a buisness plan which included 6.0 sailors upgrading to N20's.
The 6.0 with spin was never included in the Performance nationals and the independent Nacra 6.0 with spin class never really got going.
My point is that unless the N20 sailors want to step up and run their own class (rules, measurment NA's) ... the premium they pay is for Performance to host their nationals and provide dealers and take care of all of these issues.
The F18 sailors took this organization task on and they just hosted a very succesful NA's.....
Hmm..
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#157469 10/17/08 01:08 PM 10/17/08 01:08 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | When people talk about parts, etc for their boats and factory support I often wonder what parts, specifically need to be obtained from them. In SMOD classes, I believe all the parts need to be obtained from them. I think there are very few parts that are very unique to a boat that can't be sourced elsewhere, especially with the internet. Most hardware on these boats are produced by other manufacturers anyway (do you think Performance makes the track? Makes the blocks, lines, spin pole, hoop, sock?). The factory cuts the pole yes, maybe drills a few holes here and there, but with the exception of beams, masts, hulls, then there is very little that absolutely needs to be obtained from the original manufacturer. | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#157470 10/17/08 01:20 PM 10/17/08 01:20 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Yes, the N20 was the hot new boat at the time... but the N6.0 class thought that adding a spin would keep the class going. They met with a lot of resistance from the factory which had a buisness plan which included 6.0 sailors upgrading to N20's.
The 6.0 with spin was never included in the Performance nationals and the independent Nacra 6.0 with spin class never really got going.
My point is that unless the N20 sailors want to step up and run their own class (rules, measurment NA's) ... the premium they pay is for Performance to host their nationals and provide dealers and take care of all of these issues.
The F18 sailors took this organization task on and they just hosted a very succesful NA's.....
Hmm.. I know you are making a short statement about a long topic - but that's not exactly how F18 happened in the US. It rode into the US from European leadership was VERY manufacturer / dealer supported initially (in the US) which was a cause for some ruckus when the US rules were modified from the European ones that appeared to favor a particular brand. The class matured enough from there that leadership grew within that aligned it with the European rule and we have today a great class. It very likely would not have started without the manufacturer/dealer involvement that kick started things initially.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#157492 10/17/08 04:26 PM 10/17/08 04:26 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | If the peeps is buyin' why drop the price. See Todd, I don't think that boats are an inelastic commodity. People aren't going to dish out $25k for a Nacra 20 when they can get an infusion for almost half that. Your absolutely right,but my guess is PC would bury the class before they made it competitive w/ the Infusion. they are Euro based now and that's(F-18) a euro based class. Mark, As usual your wrong. Tad's right on, the Inter killed the 6.0. So you can't even compare this situation to that, because there is not a better 20' being released.It's the only show in town and the one of the best distance racers ever.It makes no sense to me to try and squash it or let it die. Us big boys need a boat for the lighter North American winds.Apparently it's more than the Euro folks can or want to handle in the heavier winds they have, i.e. the migration to F-18. Todd p.s. Jack won't even return my calls anymore.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#157496 10/17/08 05:25 PM 10/17/08 05:25 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | That wasn't a slam ( it's pretty obvious when I do that), just explaining my take on smaller sails and platform that Europeans seem to prefer, otherwise why wouldn't a longer boat with more sail area be prefered. We had to add sail area. Rolf, Do you or any other Europeans(besides Wouter) have some insight into why the F-20 class collapsed over there? Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#157497 10/17/08 05:49 PM 10/17/08 05:49 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Hiya Todd,
no worries, as our australian friends would say. There are boats with plenty sail area here as well. I dont think that is it. It might be true that the coast of Europe see more wind than the coastlines of the USA, I would not know. Would be interesting to compare statistics though!
Why did the F20 concept not take off? I dont know for sure. Having several versions of the I20 probably did not help but I dont think that was the main reason. Timing, factory support and not getting the right people into the class I would hazard. Class management of any startup class is vitally important in my opinion. Having a bad exchange rate can also hurt, as you no doubt are aware of. I sure hope others who paid more attention at the time also chime in on why the F20 did not catch on big time here. A small side note. I have the impression that you in the US are much more focused on class racing than we are over here. Mixed racing/handicap is not uncommon, so the F20/I20 would typically race Tornados, F18s, Hobies, one-offs and all other types of boats. | | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#157499 10/17/08 06:07 PM 10/17/08 06:07 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Class racing here does seem to be the norm for the upper eschelon sailors. I sail mostly distance races so I'm used to handicap racing. Don't always agree with it, but used to it. What's the hot 20 footer(besides the tornado) over there? Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#157514 10/18/08 06:09 AM 10/18/08 06:09 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
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Posts: 1,203 uk | I was really disappointed when the iF20 started to dwindle in Europe. As Jake said, F18 was pushed fowards by manufacturers that developed the right boats to go head to head and even some guys making them in their own sheds. iF20 became doninated by the inter20 [Not many variants either Rolf] and the other boats that were about were not developed to beat them. the yank habit of tinkering with the rigs to suit themselves did not help either! There were a lot of F18 guys that were just too big for their boats at the time and we tried to get them to step up to the iF20. When they sailed the inter20 they said that it just felt too easy to sail and not fiery enough! despite its many knockers, F18 is rightfully the dominant class and it WORKS - you won't see any F16 or F20 boats winning any big races on handicap. There is only room for one formula class and F18 is it! The 20 footers best chance is if it sticks to an absolute one design and the F18 gets too pricey to keep competitive [olympic involvement?] making the 20 affordable top level racing.
Paul
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Andy Humphries]
#157573 10/19/08 08:37 AM 10/19/08 08:37 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | In talking to one of the top Infusion teams(who used to sail I-20s) ,they told me the mast was 10 pounds heavier. I'd have to take the $1,000 dollar a pound option if I broke mine. Aluminum is not the way I'd want to go either ,but having that option would be nice, instead of a parked I-20 with a broken mast because I can't/won't pay $11,000 for "that" mast. For that much money it could be lighter and stronger. Look at Hall and Marstrom's. My sailing falls under the 2 good sized guys category apparently, because me and most of my regular crew would be wayyyy to heavy to be competitive on any F-18. Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#157574 10/19/08 08:45 AM 10/19/08 08:45 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Team VMG "When they sailed the inter20 they said that it just felt too easy to sail and not fiery enough! despite its many knockers, F18 is rightfully the dominant class and it WORKS - you won't see any F16 or F20 boats winning any big races on handicap. There is only room for one formula class and F18 is it!"
All opinion. If stuffing bows and pitchpoling is fiery than I'll stick with my "Easy" boat as long as I can afford to.
20s and 16s both regularly beat F-18s on handicap here.You think any of that has to do with the number? Nahh, not that.It goes both ways. Todd P.s.Didn't mean to hi-jack, I'm done with the pissing match defending the boat. F-16 and F-18 are the best thing since sliced bread and condom machines. Now can we get on with what this thread was about. I'd still like to see some input from I-20 owners on their thoughts.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
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